Good evening.

I'm so glad you're watching us here on PBS Fort Wayne.

We have a very good show ahead.

Life Ahead is the name of our show, and we have that name for a good reason.

We try to give you information and education on different topics that might help you and choices that you have to make in your life ahead.

Well, somebody sooner or later is going to have to handle an estate issue.

Perhaps someone in your family has already been appointed as a personal representative or a trustee, or maybe that's in the future yet to be decided.

But we have two attorneys here that are going to help you know, what to do when that time comes or maybe it's already here for you.

Meanwhile, Heidi Adair is with us.

Heidi has been with us many times.

Welcome back, Heidi.

Thanks, Sandy.

Good to be here.

Interesting topic.

I'm looking forward to this.

Thanks.

Thanks.

And from the same firm, we had Bryan San Jose, Bryan, welcome to Life Ahead.

Good afternoon and welcome to Indiana.

I've been talking to Bryan before the show and he's from Texas.

We're in Texas.

Houston, Texas, yes.

Houston.

I've been there.

Yeah.

Hot.

Very hot.

And a huge city.

Yes.

Okay.

Well, he does like Indiana so far, so we're happy about that and welcome him to Fort Wayne if you see him out and about, Heidi, we're talking about insights into a state administration.

Let's start by having both of you chip in, if you will, on defining what the state or the health I mean, the personal representative, I guess it would be what their job is and what does it mean to handle in the state.

So an a state administration is a process where you just go in an orderly fashion, gathering up all of the assets of the person who's passed away.

Yes.

And figuring out what their debts and expenses are that need to be dealt with again in an orderly fashion, making sure that their taxes get taken care of and then distributing their assets the way that they want them to be distributed.

After all, the business affairs have been taken care of.

It sounds simple, but very complicated, actually.

Bryan, how does how do you get started as an attorney if somebody comes to you and their father, grandfather has passed and they are the personal representative, where do you begin with them and what do they need to bring to you?

And in terms of documentation?

Certainly, we hopefully we have their last will and testament, but if we don't and the client does, then we take their last will and testament and we would submit it to the court with the opening documents to open up an and state on a deceased person's behalf.

And then what happens next is the court will appoint the personal representative, whoever the will names as a personal representative, and then it gets kickstarted with what Heidi mentioned regarding getting an inventory of the assets, getting and getting an inventory of liabilities and certainly putting creditors on notice, whether it's through the newspaper or another avenue, and certainly notifying beneficiaries that they are beneficiaries of someone's estate.

And that's an interesting point, Bryan.

People don't always know their beneficiary.

Do they?

No, no.

I can make a will today and name numerous folks, and they would have no clue that they're beneficiaries unless I tell them.

So it is the personal representatives responsibility to find and locate, which some some estates.

It's easier than others, you know, and and let them know that they are beneficiaries under someone's last will and testament.

And when you name a beneficiary, I know you have to, like give as much information about them as you can.

Their there full name, phone number, address that sort of information so that the attorneys can find them.

Right, Heidi?

Well, so when you name a beneficiary on like a life insurance policy or an IRA, they usually elicit that information from you when you're filling out the form.

But they don't will you may or may not have that information through.

You may say, I lead my second cousin, my house.

His name is John, you know.

And if we've drafted the will, you know, we do try to do a good job at it saying, hey, could you give us a list of your contact information?

But if we didn't draft the will, you know, we all may sort of be searching, trying to figure out where those people are.

Yeah, I get that.

Yeah.

Let's talk about creditors.

Bryan mentioned that one of the things the attorney needs to do or the representative needs to do is to notify creditors or the potential creditors.

How do you do that?

I mean, it used to be that every body read the paper and obituaries and notices all were in the paper.

How do you do that now?

Expecting not everyone will.

We'll see it in paper.

Well, it's funny that you mentioned that still in 2023, the law states that it's got to be published in the local newspaper.

Really?

So, okay.

That's still set in stone.

Okay.

That's good rule.

I mean, that's kind of comforting to know that at least there's one standard place.

Yes.

Yes.

And as a personal representative, you do your job.

One of the things you're required to do is make a reasonable search to figure out who the creditors are.

So by, you know, getting the mail and looking through it, and if you see a creditor, then you have to physically send them a letter letting them know that the person has died.

That would be a personal letter like from you.

But it's it's really kind of a it's a generated form that says so-and-so has died and you're a creditor and you've got so much time to file a claim.

So you owe somebody, I don't know, $3,000 for some home construction work they did.

So you would the representative would have to notify that contractor?

Yep.

Does he have a certain amount of time to apply for what he is owed?

He does.

It's.

I think it's three months.

He's got to file a claim.

And if he doesn't file a claim, he's barred.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Got it.

You mentioned three.

Yeah, that's.

Okay.

Is it?

He's closer to the bar exam.

He knows those numbers.

He knows all the details.

Thank you, Bryan, for clarifying.

I'm happy to.

Speaking of time limits, I'm just curious, how long does it take to settle in a state?

I think it might be a surprise to a lot of people.

You think that, you know, this is you have the funeral.

You you've sold the house, you've done some of those immediate things.

But it takes quite a while sometimes to settle the entire estate.

Can you speak to that, Bryan?

And why, course.

So a very simple estate.

We're talking maybe a house and a few bank accounts that could be easily done with within a year.

Okay.

But if there are multiple bank accounts scattered across, if there are numerous beneficiaries, if there are multiple IRAs or four one KS or life insurance policies that are payable to the estate, that can certainly add months to the process.

And if there are beneficiary areas that don't necessarily get along with one another, that can certainly add on more time.

We've there have been numerous times where I've dealt with clients where they're arguing over Mom's rocking chair and and they will do anything for it and they're willing to drag on an estate as long as they can, just for the rocking chair.

Just for the rocking chair.

You know, that sounds surprising, but it doesn't surprise me because we've talked about this topic before.

And even Magistrate Houck, who is a probate judge and I'd love to tell this story, I told him that I tell this frequently, he has to often make those decisions in probate court about who gets what.

You know, if they can't agree.

And he said it's never the big things that the siblings or the family argues over.

It's not the the house, the farm, the lake cottage.

It's the tea set from Niagara Falls that grandma bought in 1942.

It's the sentimental things.

Or now we'll add to that, the rocking chair.

Yes, I love that.

But Catherine, Heidi, one time you mentioned that this is kind of a delicate subject, but depending on the time the person passes during the year, that that makes a difference.

On how long it can take to settle the estate.

Yeah.

So you have one of your obligations is to make sure that the decedent's last income tax return is filed.

Okay.

And so part of that is you got to wait till February or March when the 1090 nines and the W-2s are sent and the tax forms become available.

Sure.

So I always say, you know, if you die in November, things can get wrapped up very quickly.

If you die in June.

We're going to have to wait, wait, that.

Six.

Eight, nine months to get that taken care of.

So.

Yeah.

That is just weird, isn't that?

But I know it is crazy, but I mean, it makes sense that practically you, you said as far as doing the taxes for the person who has passed away, do you have to do taxes on the estate, Ryan?

How does that work?

Yeah, if there is an asset in the estate that is certainly earning income, let's say an investment account that's still open and earn interest.

Sure.

Then the estate will have to pay taxes on that interest that was earned.

I see.

Wendy, when do you get done when do you know you're done collecting all the information from creditors, all the tax information?

When do you know you're finished with that as an attorney?

I mean, so maybe you have a pretty good idea of what the assets are.

So you start just gathering those up and then you roll through a tax time.

And that's when 1099 come in W-2s.

And that's another clue as to what assets are out there.

So if a 1099 shows up that you have no idea what it is, it kluge pushes you to go find something else.

So usually through the end of the first tax year, you'll have a real good idea of what's out there and be able to feel like you can close things.

Okay.

All right.

I can understand why it would take so long and maybe the more complicated things are.

Obviously, if you have a lot of assets, maybe some in real estate and several different retirement bonds, an.

Interesting one that we've had to deal with before are these class action lawsuits like the real mesothelioma and the lung cancer things we've had.

What was I you know, I can't remember.

What do you call it?

I don't know.

I know what you're talking about.

You see it on TV all the time.

You know.

But we've had to have those things pay out, like in increments at various times, and we've had to have the states open for years just to continue to be able to receive those payments.

So every situation is different and different facts require different things.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

Let's say that you want to get all of your ducks in a row, if you will.

And you're still alive, still whatever.

But you want to make things as simple as you can for your family after you pass.

What can you do, Bryan?

How do you go about selecting the person that's going to be your personal representative or your trustee or your health representative as well?

How do you know who to pick for what?

I would certainly pick someone who I know I can rely on and is a go getter.

I would also to make it easier on that person.

I would have a comprehensive list of where my assets are, where who to call.

Yeah.

And, and basically where everything is.

So whenever I do pass away, it is as easy as it's it's the easiest process for my personal representative to just go to the list and say, okay, I had accounts in numerous banks all over Fort Wayne.

I had an IRA, I had a life insurance policy.

And so then and then I have a personal broker.

I have their number and their contact information listed.

And I make sure that the personal broker, whoever I am working with, knows that I have named my wife or my brother or my son as a, as my personal representative.

So that that so when the day does come, they know that if my wife does call, okay, I, I can I can give information to them.

They're here for a certain purpose and just to help get that process going quicker.

And I think I'm just guessing that you would agree on probably as much information as you can give.

Now, Bryan mentioned, if you can, you know, put your trustee or your bank information, but if you can also do account numbers.

And in this world.

Right now, passwords.

How about passwords, Heidi?

Speak to that.

Yeah.

So that's kind of become one of the talking points that we have in most client meetings when we're finalizing people's estate planning documents.

Have you told somebody your passwords?

Is there a list of them somewhere, especially between spouses?

You know, half the utility bills are getting emailed to one spouse and the other half are being emailed to the other one.

And is the if something happens to the one, is the other one going to know how to pay the electric bill?

So good point.

Does that happen very often, Bryan?

And what do you do as an attorney for these people to help guide them through the process?

Oh, it happens quite often.

I, I would say, like Heidi said, to write down all your passwords.

But if not, the next step is you would either have to get the power of attorney papers and or the court documents showing that you were the personal representative and reach out to these third parties to say, I am I have authority to these accounts, please give me their username and password.

And that that is another avenue to go down.

It certainly takes longer.

It's it's certainly easier to write down all your passwords on a piece of paper.

Right.

And let it be known to your spouse or the person you trust.

Or keep those with your with all your documents.

Certainly orange folder, Heidi.

I know.

Yeah.

The orange folder.

Yeah.

So, yeah, keeping all that together will make the settling of the estate faster because you don't have to search for anything.

And the other thing I would say is, you know, any consolidating that you can do is.

Helpful to me.

Like.

You know, maybe have two banks and not 12 or.

Oh, okay.

If you've got little tiny life insurance policies for $1,000 that your grandparents bought for you 20 years ago, and there's seven of them, that, that that stuff gets challenging.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I bet any consolidating that you can do is helpful.

Okay.

Try to get things in one or two or three places.

Yeah, something like that.

All right.

Let's talk about distributing assets among the beneficiaries.

Is there a way to do that, Bryan?

If you have it named beneficiaries, but let's say you go.

Well, I don't know if you're maybe not in probate yet, but you still have some assets.

You have the rocking chair, Bryan.

You have the Niagara Falls tea set, but you have some assets that aren't specifically in your will.

How do you go about that, Bryan, in terms of distributing if you can't get the siblings to agree?

Well, if there is a disagreement among beneficiaries, you mentioned earlier that magistrate, how can certainly dip his toe in the water to handle disputes.

The personal representative can also do that among their discretion.

We certainly advise clients to write down a list of personal belongings, to go to certain individuals to try to avoid that problem.

However, if it does come to that, the personal representative or a magistrate or a judge can certainly step in and handle the dispute.

The worst case scenario that we try to avoid at all cost is litigation.

Is someone suing the estate or suing another beneficiary and really dragging along in the process?

So we try to do everything to not let that happen.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That makes sense.

And not just from a time factor, but an expense factor.

Sure.

It's well, time is an expense, right?

Right.

But when you get lawyers involved with judges, it's just it's an expensive process.

So if the siblings are the beneficiaries can agree among themselves.

Oh, yeah.

And you know, if you're fighting over tangible personal property.

Yeah.

The the fees to fight over it are going to far exceed the value of the piece of property.

So it's, it's not a good idea.

It's to be avoided, if at all possible.

Well, speaking of the cost of the personal property, I'm kind of curious how you know the value of a piece of property.

How do you go about that?

And you're shaking your head, Bryan, you've got an answer for me.

So you have all these personal things that aren't necessarily listed in the wills.

They're not IRAs, they're not bank accounts.

They're written pieces of personal property, whether it be a house or a car or the rocking chair.

How do you determine a value to try to settle this among the siblings?

We what we tell the personal representatives or the executor is to reach out to an appraiser to have it appraised or an auctioneer.

Oftentimes, auctioneers, they come across numerous things.

Sure.

And they're selling these items constantly.

They might have an idea of what the market is for certain items.

And we've certainly steered clients in that direction to auctioneers or appraisers to to get an assessed value of any intangible personal property that folks are disagreeing upon.

Can you can you hire, I guess would be the right word, an auctioneer to determine value if you're not going to hire them to auction the entire estate?

I think you could.

Yeah.

Okay.

And and I will say that most people most families are able to settle the tangible personal property without problems.

I mean, it's it's not every estate that we're called to deal with tangible personal property.

In fact, one of our first questions is, do you need help with the tangible personal property?

And nine times out of ten, they say, no, we're going to find a way.

We're going to it will be fine.

Because it's the sad thing is, is that we all spend a lot of time working to buy the couches and the tea sets and all of this.

And at the end, if you sell it, it's really doesn't bring in that much money.

And, you know, if you die when you're 90, your kids are 65, they have a house.

Full of they have all their things.

They don't need it.

So they're trying to figure out what to do with their stuff.

Right.

Right.

So stuff is easier to deal with then.

It's not a fight every time.

And from what everyone tells me, things have changed anyway.

I mean, Bryan's generation, for example, probably is not interested in the china and silver and things that may spread a generation.

And the lesson that I don't want at all.

Of the.

Attic.

I mean, their lifestyle is just so different.

So, yeah.

What, what was valued for his parents and his grandparents.

Not a part of your life?

Certainly so.

Not a part of your life.

All right.

Let's talk about charitable giving.

How does that play into estate planning?

Let's say you want to give your church or some non nonprofit organization or even PBS a charitable donation.

Did you notice I said, yeah, how do you go about doing that?

So you can incorporate it into your will where you want to leave a dollar amount or a percentage or you can get fancy and use an IRA to make a charitable donation.

It would make them the.

Beneficiary of what?

Yes.

You would use the beneficiary form on the IRA.

Oh, to some.

Or or all to charity.

And the advantage of using the IRA is that whoever if a person gets the IRA from you when they get it, they're going to have to pay taxes on it.

If a charity gets that IRA, they don't have to pay any taxes.

So it's the most tax efficient way to to leave money to charity.

Now, the thing that I kind of talk with clients about is do you want it in your will?

So it's just it's it's more than absolutely more than likely going to get paid.

Or do you want to use a beneficiary designation where you need to be keeping that in mind so that if you get a new IRA person, a new provider, you need to make sure you incorporate that charitable donation into a revised form.

Okay, you got a choice.

Got to.

Save taxes.

Watch it, monitor it, or put it in your will and forget about it.

Well, speaking of in your will, can you add things to your will without redoing the entire will?

Can you add like an amendment on the back page that you've had notarized or something?

Right.

What do you say, Bryan?

What do you think?

Yes, you can.

They're called cortisol.

Kind of okay.

And those they can be as you can amend as much as your well as you want, depending on how much of that will you are amending, we might opt in to just rewrite the entire will, and in some cases it is easier to rewrite the entire thing.

But if it's a small change here and there, we can certainly do that.

Get to witnesses to witness it, and we would keep the cortisol with the original will as well.

So whenever you do pass away, when you have your will and we also have your cortisol.

Okay with.

Your documents.

So you need to make sure the attorney gets a copy of that cortisol, not just a copy at home.

Yeah.

And really, you should consult with an attorney to do a castle.

You can just write it and sign it and notarize it.

It has to go through the exact same magic two witnesses sign it.

Magic language at the end to witnesses sign again.

You have to follow the formalities or it doesn't work.

Okay.

So it's good to go back to the attorney that wrote the will to help you with that.

That makes sense.

Make sure everything is legal.

Bryan, very quickly here, we're nearing the end of the show, but I'm curious, I don't know if you're doing it yet, but probably your parents generation or your grandparents are going around the home, labeling things, putting their name, you know, a Post-it note or a tag on different items with the name of the person that's supposed to get that.

Is that legal?

Oh, certainly.

So they if I would advise to those folks to if that if that's what they want to do to make a list of that of property and have an write down on the list, my daughter gets my tea set.

Okay.

Or alternatively, you can gift it during your lifetime if you don't want to deal with your folks fighting after your passing, you can give those items during the end of your lifetime.

And then that settles it point blank.

And there is no arguing.

Mom gave me the book collection.

Mom gave me you name it.

And that settles it for everyone that you made the conscious decision during your lifetime.

So that makes sense to Heidi contribute to that.

What if the kids can agree on that before you even pass?

Well, that's the great thing about giving gifts during lifetime, because they don't have to agree.

It's like.

Mom gave.

It to me.

Yeah, here you go.

It's mine.

And I get to make that choice versus after death.

You got to get people on board and agreeing with things.

Yeah, it's a complicated area for sure.

We have just about a minute, Heidi.

What last bit of advice would you give to our viewers here who have maybe this situation coming up?

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't hesitate to get help from legal counsel when you're dealing with an estate, because it's really not that horrible of a process.

If you know what you're doing and know what questions to ask the people who really struggle or the people who try to do it on their own and it just drags on sometimes.

That makes sense.

Well, I want to thank you all for watching life ahead personally and invite you every Wednesday night at 730.

We're on PBS, Fort Wayne here.

And we have different shows and different guests each time.

Bryan, thank you so much for spending time with us here.

We're going to make a Hoosier out of you, you know.

Of course.

Yes.

Well, he started by going to IU, so you have a little bit of indoctrination, right, to do.

And Heidi, thank you, as always, for helping us here on PBS.

Give information and education.

We'll see all of you next Wednesday night.

Meanwhile, stay safe and stay healthy.

Good night.