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>> Good evening and thank you so much for watching us here on PBS for Wayne I'm thinking Thompson by the way the host of Life Ahead which is the name of this show but the real star of this show you're going to meet in just a moment.

>> We have an attorney with us this evening and our main topic will be talking about states, the history of estate planning and things that you might do in a new kind of a new style of estate planning if you will.

His name is Brian.

New Jersey is with us a fairly regularly here on LIFE Ahead.

If you have any calls any questions for him, you can see the number there at the bottom of the screen (969) 27 twenty .

>> Give us a call and we'll put Brian's legal expertize on the line here.

>> All right.

Meet Brian with me here this evening.

>> Welcome back, Brian.

Thanks, Andy.

Great to be here.

Just he was just here a few weeks ago and we had a number of phone calls.

>> So if you have a legal question, try to give us a call here as quickly as you can, please.

>> I will say, Brian, if if you will talk to us live on the air ,that's good that way if Brian has a question back for you, you're right there on the phone.

But if you're not comfortable doing that, we do have a phone operator in the control room that will take your question, type it up and send it out here to the studio and I can read it off the teleprompter and ask you that, OK, it's fantastic.

Those are the rules.

OK, pretty simple.

We have no commercials obviously.

>> So we're going to go straight through here for this half hour.

Brian, let's talk start talking about the history of estate planning.

>> Sure.

You know, I mean you weren't there when it started.

>> I don't think I got too much younger than that.

How long have you been an attorney?

So I've been practicing 30 thirty years.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, well you were almost there at the beginning.

Actually I think I recall reading that was it back in the Roman days that there were actually and there was another name for attorneys at that time what would they have been maybe solicitors or masters of that in England more so than Roman times but yeah, could be I'm not going that far back.

>> Tonight you're going back so don't ask about Roman times.

>> I'll be in trouble.

All right.

That's off the agenda for tonight.

>> Well, since you've been practicing you know I'm 30 some years how his estate planning changed and how has that evolved?

>> It's funny when when I started practicing law and even when I was in law school we talked about estate planning a lot of the focus was on transferring wealth from one generation to another and trying to avoid tax if there was a taxable estate at the beginning of my career you paid tax if your estate was six hundred thousand dollars or more and really we were focusing on how is it that you transfer wealth from one generation to another?

Are we going to go through probate with that?

We wrote a lot of wills at that time and trusts were popular but not quite as popular as they are now.

Trusts were allowing us to skip probate probate meaning that you go to court, you file your will, you open an estate, you publish in the newspaper the judge appoint someone named a personal representative or an executor.

So at the beginning of my career both in law school and then as when I started practicing law we typically would talk about preparing wills and sometimes trusts and other are we going through probate or are we trying to avoid probate and that that's evolved over time Sandy .

>> Yeah, yeah.

As everything does.

Where do you think it's going though?

>> I mean say you know, in 10 years when you're sitting here talking to me on Life Head, what will it be like do you think?

Well, I think a focus that I see now that I didn't even we didn't even talk about when I was in school was elder law and elder law is of course we have a huge aging population now where people are aging and they're concerned with not only passing my wealth to the next generation but I'm also thinking about how is it that protect those assets that I've worked a lifetime for , how do I protect them also?

How is it that I get care as I'm aging?

How do I pay for that care?

So we at one point we talked a lot about long term care insurance.

That world is really changed over the last 30 years.

>> At one time that didn't exist.

It didn't exist and then came into vogue very popularly.

Yeah, probably late 80s, early 90s and unfortunately we have our our seniors are living much longer than they used to.

So you're seeing a lot of those companies at one time they were promising they weren't going to increase their rates and they were going to be fixed and they couldn't do that right there.

>> They're insured.

We're living much longer than they anticipated.

So what happened there with not that long term care insurance isn't still viable but it's becoming very, very expensive.

So folks began looking for other alternatives and so elder law, although it's been around it's become very common now it's something that's talked about on a very regular basis and so elder law is a process whereby we're not only planning where our money goes at the time that we pass away but during our lifetime how do we protect it?

How do we shelter it and still get the care that we want?

And then back to your question earlier, Sandy , which was where do I see that it's going?

I think that you're going to start seeing law practices having a much more holistic approach a more a much more robust approach to providing care for their clients.

And when I say that, what I mean is that you might start seeing more things under the umbrella of a law firm so could be that you would have on staff elder care coordinator someone that would assist those senior clients as they're needing care in the home as they're transitioning maybe from their home to an independent living facility to an assisted living facility.

They're looking at programs pace which we have here in Fort Wayne and shepherding folks through that process from the law firm and let's say that somebody in the hospital and they need to go into rehab what rehab facility do I go to?

How do I pay for that stay what does Medicare pay for ?

What may I need to pay for privately?

I think that you'll start seeing law firms having CPAs on staff that are advising their clients about tax decisions.

You may have your tax return basic tax returns done in the law firm.

You may have when you're working with a law firm you may start working with a team in that office.

So traditionally the beginning of my career you would think about clients would come to you and they want a product.

I want a contract prepared.

I want a will prepared or a trust prepared.

But I think that what I'm seeing as this profession evolves is that not only are you coming to the law firms for those things to be done, but you're looking for a team approach, a more holistic approach to provide care for you as you age and how do you successfully age and hopefully you're ahead of the curve as opposed to having a crisis or a tragedy happen and then trying to put the pieces together.

>> Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, things do change since the days Roman days, you know and you know this trend or kind of a new approach if you will of I guess would be life care style of planning is is certainly one thing and that's interesting that you think that perhaps in the future you might even have your taxes done for sure at the attorney's office.

So a lot of things could change as they do everywhere.

Hey Scott called Scott, thank you so much for watching and here's his question.

He says What needs to happen to a joint revokable trust when one spouse dies and does anything titled or help by that trust me to change.

>> OK, I'll let you know, Scott thank you, Scott.

So that's a very that's a great question.

So let's just very briefly explain what a revokable trust is so that the audience understands that so revokable trust.

I like to say it's just a contract so Scott, you may come to the law office and you say I would like to avoid the expensive probate if I could.

I don't want to be going to court if I can avoid that, I'd like to keep my affairs private so I don't want a nosy neighbor going in to see what my will says.

So your attorney may recommend doing a trust so a revocable trust is typically a trust that can be changed.

>> Oftentimes that's revokable as opposed to area you've got it so trust those contracts can be written any way that are most appropriate for you.

>> Scott.

So to your question irrevocable trust when one spouse dies does anything titled in the name of that trust need to be changed?

And the answer is no it doesn't.

The trust will continue living on past the first spouse's death.

>> So for example, let's say that you prepared the trust in year two thousand and you and your spouse transferred your home into the name of that trust and the trust is called my name.

>> So Nugent Living Trust.

So if my spouse passes away the name of the trust doesn't change.

The home is still in the trust and so no, there's nothing for you to do really at the time of the passing of the first spouse there may be some we may get a separate employer or a tax identification number for the trust at the time of the passing the first spouse is that necessary or you said May?

>> Well, I say that because with revocable trusts we can use your Social Security number as the tax identification number for the trust.

OK, so if a spouse had passed and we were using their Social Security number, it may need to be that we we obtain a new tax identification number for the trust and sometimes again those trusts depending upon the how they're written they may become irrevocable at the time of the death of the first spouse or they may not be irrevocable when the first spouse passes again depending upon how that document is drafted and what it is that you wanted to get accomplished.

But a great question, Scott.

Sometimes clients need to speak with an attorney if they have a trust and sometimes they don't.

>> If the trust is clearly written and the person is used to working with it, one of the selling points of those revocable trusts is you don't necessarily have to hire the attorney when a spouse or loved one passes away the trustee normally the other surviving spouse would be able to move on and serve as a trustee after the death of the first one.

>> So you're saying that's what you might do if if perchance the trust was set up in a bank or somewhere else?

>> Well, so the trust wouldn't necessarily be set up at the bank.

>> It could be that you use a bank as trustee department as a trustee.

>> Normally though in revocable trusts living trusts like this one that Scott was asking about typically the spouses are their own trustees oftentimes then they'll try to select a trusted child if they have a trusted child or children it could be more than one to serve as the trustee.

So it might be that husband and wife form the trust.

Scott, I'll use you as an example if the wife passes away and Scott's living fantastic she can continue being his own trustee.

But if Scott becomes incompetent, incapacitated or for whatever reason typically age I just can't do this anymore.

>> I need some help then we look in the trust and we say who's the second trustee to step in?

And quite often it is a child not always sometimes we used banks trust departments we might use other trusted friends or our professionals to fill in in that position but typically it would be a spouse and if a spouse is unable to serve then it would be a child.

>> Let's say that you have selected a spouse or one of your children to be that trustee if you will.

But something happens.

>> We talked about Scott's issue a bit of questioning if a spouse dies but what if the child moves or his lifestyle doesn't plan or so being trustworthy?

>> Do you go and change the trustee?

>> So the movement of the trustee isn't as much of an issue as it once was.

It's a small world anymore.

I have trustees just today I spoke with a trustee that lives in Oregon.

I have trustees that are all over the United States, have one trustee I'm thinking that lives abroad in Germany so it isn't necessarily it isn't as important as it once was for that trustee to be living within ten minutes of mom dad .

It's a small world with Internet and email.

It's changed.

It is a small world.

>> Well, we have two more questions.

We've had certainly some interesting conversations already.

Rick has called in and he has this question How much money can you have in the bank when you go into assisted living?

>> So I'm going to answer that in two ways, Rick.

You're offline so I can't ask you specifically what you're asking about but so moving into an assisted living facility and let's let's talk about one so you'll hear sometimes the phrase Alef.

It's an acronym assisted living facility.

So this is a facility where they may have a common dining room.

You have your own room that you would be living in there providing direct assistance to you and so as your physical health may decline or your needs increase, they're able to provide assistance with activities of daily living.

So it's your need would be lower than if you were in something like a nursing home or a memory care unit.

So that's the idea of an assisted living facility.

So how much money you could have in the bank if you're privately paying its irrelevant how much you have in the bank.

Right.

We need to have enough money there to provide payment for your care at that locale or on a monthly basis probably.

>> Do you think?

Yeah, well you have you're going to have to your income and your assets are going to have to match what that responsibility is to stay there.

But if what you're asking, Rick, is what are there other alternatives to pay for my stay at an assisted living facility?

There are other there are other alternatives.

Those examples could be the Veterans Administration should may pay a portion of your stay.

Medicaid could pay a portion of your stay.

So if you're looking for those VA benefits or those Medicaid benefits, then we're needing to have a smaller amount of money and your checking account savings account you're available resources and the standards are different.

VA versus Medicaid.

>> But if you're asking how to have that stay paid for Medicaid typically is looking for you to have two thousand dollars or less in your name and VA has a whole different standard based upon your income and how many assets you have etc.

But there there are a number of lovely assisted living facilities that you might want to check out and the right one will will appear as you look them and find out what's a good fit for you and then you would need to ask them how much is your cost of care and can afford it or not if you're intending to apply pay for it privately.

If you're not intending to pay for it privately then you most likely want to speak to an elder law attorney and figure out how is it that I protect those assets?

How do I get those benefits from the VA or or Medicaid?

>> I hope I've answered your question.

Thank you so much by the way for watching and for calling in with that question.

And you gave a very thorough answer.

We talked about the cost or pricing we are we aren't going to give any specifics but I guess just to point out what kind of care you have might make a difference whether you're in like a an apartment or a villa at the facility or whether you are in a building that's more like a hospital.

>> So when you're looking at different facilities they have an assessment process so they're going to send someone to meet with you personally or maybe speak with your family and determine the level of care that this individual needs.

>> Is it a good fit for the facility?

So maybe you were referencing earlier, Rick, that you're talking about an Alaf maybe you don't need an assisted living facility.

Maybe you need something called an ILF independent living facility where they don't provide as much care and you transition into an alaf over time.

So they'll do an assessment for you and make sure that you're a good fit for that facility.

>> All right.

We have two more questions and we want to make sure we get to to them to answer them.

Manny has a question I think we'd like to meet Manny because his question is is there a trust is a trust required if you're at fifth or less than seven million?

So the seven million I'm guessing you're asking that has to do with federal estate tax.

So federal estate tax right now is at a point that it affects less than one percent of our population.

>> So you could as individually twelve million dollars right now actually closer to thirteen million dollars individually if you're married you can tack on your credits to your spouse and your twenty six 27 million dollars so that the amount of money that you have for the type of trust that we were discussing earlier that revokable living trust is really irrelevant.

It's don't think about how much you have it what you want to get accomplished.

>> So I have clients and other estate planning elder law attorneys I'm sure in the same situation where we may have clients that have four or five million dollars let's say are seven million to use your example.

But they're giving everything directly to a spouse or everything directly to children.

They're not worried about the kids getting it over time and we can get those that those assets transferred with a simple beneficiary designation.

If we can do that, maybe you need to trust maybe you don't it's not based upon the amount of wealth that you have.

It really is based upon what you want to do and what you want to get accomplished.

I like to say to my clients don't don't think about what you need or you don't need before you come into the attorney's office.

Don't worry about using legalese or big terms that you may have read or heard from a neighbor.

Think about what it is you want to get accomplished and then allow that attorney that you're speaking with to give you guidance and make recommendations .

>> You maybe a trust is appropriate, maybe it isn't appropriate but but come in with an open mind and let that attorney know what you want to get accomplished and then allow them to help you achieve that.

Speaking of trust again Sylvia has called in and Patty as well and Patty, hang on we're going to get to you in just a second here.

Sylvia wants to know but trust is appropriate for a single person without a doubt I'm no longer single but when I was single I had to trust for myself.

I think to me a good trust is very key part of estte planning.

I did say my earlier response to the earlier question you don't always need to trust it's true but without a doubt being married or being single has very little to do with whether or not you need a trust or you don't need to trust.

>> OK, all right.

>> Sure.

Thank you and thank you Sylvia.

Hi Patty.

I know you're on the line here tonight.

>> Patty, thanks for watching.

And you have a question obviously for Brian.

>> Yes, I'm going to try to shorten his question.

I don't know how possible it is.

Say there is a joint trust between a man and wife and the husband dies and upon his death he has it written that it changes from revokable to irrevocable upon death and upon his death and he has the beneficiaries only listed as his children for personal property.

>> So he dies.

My assumption is it becomes a revokable and that his personal property is divided only among his children but the money CDs, stocks etc.

Then goes to the wife who's still surviving and she has a revocable trust.

So the wife said she gains control the money and stocks and everything assumes that all his personal property is hers to do with as she pleases.

Also even though it will be requested to the four children.

So she takes that property that was his and distribute it only to two of the four children.

So she's saying it's legal because she took control upon his death.

>> So I'm just curious what you say.

Well, complicated.

So I'm going to stay on the line because I may need some clarification.

Here's is I'm going through so remember what I was saying before every trust is a contract so you would have to read the trust that this gentleman had the husband had and see what it said about becoming irrevocable at the time of his passing and it most likely did.

You cannot cut a spouse out of all of your estate.

You don't have to give all of your estate to your spouse though.

So one of the things that I'm not aware of is what the value of that personal property was.

So we would have to look at the wealth of the gentleman that passed and then say how much of the estate did he give to his spouse and how much of the estate went to the children?

The true nuts and bolts of the real fair market value of that personal property personal property unless it's really something incredible you might be shocked at how low of a value a personal property has.

So my my again without reading any of the the trusts without having the valuations in front of me, I would say that she may she may be in trouble having given away those trust assets that should have gone to the children.

Now was she the trustee?

Was she not the trustee?

Did the trust say she could deviate from the terms of that?

I don't know.

But if your question really is about that personal property and the wife disposed of it and should not have done so, she may have some liability however we need to look at did she really understand what she was doing?

Did she have intent to do something that was contrary to the trust?

Was there did she have any did she have some legal advice during that time?

Well, she probably should have sought legal advice frankly.

But if she didn't but I would say that technically she most likely has done something that she shouldn't have done by giving that personal property away.

However, if you want to ask about liability, if she wasn't aware of the terms of the trust ,if she didn't don't do that knowingly, then she has some defense there.

But in the fact that the husband or wife had two trusts that would have been maybe one of two reasons their estate was such that the attorney that drafted those two trusts was trying to protect credits for both the husband and wife we talked about earlier about paying federal estate tax and used to be more so.

Remember I talked at the beginning of my career a federal estate tax was at six hundred thousand.

>> Now we're at twelve thirteen million per person.

We used to do two separate trusts.

We protect those six hundred thousand dollars in credits so these are either old trusts it could be that this was a second relationship, a second marriage and so sometimes we'll do two trusts and divide assets up that way.

So have I answered your question Patty?

If I got gotten close to where you are?

>> Oh absolutely.

I do have a copy of the trusts.

I know exactly what it says.

Know if you wanted to get into those details, you know, on TV right now or or if you don't have a call waiting, it's knowledge for everybody else.

>> Actually, Patty, I wish we could but I just was notified we only have one minute left in the show.

I'm so sorry.

This is a very interesting and very complex issue that you're facing here.

>> I hope Brian's been able to give you some good advice so wonderful.

I appreciate it so much.

You really have helped.

Best of luck, Patty.

Take care.

Thank you.

Thank you for watching your life head Patty.

>> Thank you.

OK, Brian, I appreciate all the phone calls we've gotten tonight.

We always do get a lot when you're with us here and I do want to advise you all to keep watching LIFE Ahead.

>> We're on every Wednesday night, by the way at seven thirty and we at least once a month have a legal show.

Brian comes back fairly regularly although he's going to be gone on vacation for a little while.

>> So we'll let you do that before we put you to work again.

Thank you.

Meanwhile, thank you all for watching and we'll see you right here next Wednesday night at seven thirty.

>> Stay safe and stay healthy to take care