>> EVANSTON IS GROUNDBREAKING REPARATIONS PROGRAM IS NOW FACING A LEGAL CHALLENGE.

THE PROGRAM IS AIMED AT ADDRESSING HOUSING DISCRIMINATION AND SEGREGATION THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE NORTHERN SUBURB FROM 1919, TO 1969, THE CITY'S ORIGINAL PLAN WAS TO DISTRIBUTE FUNDS TO ELIGIBLE BLACK HOUSEHOLDS IN THE FORM $25,000 PAYMENTS FOR HOME REPAIRS DOWN PAYMENTS OR INTEREST OR LATE PENALTIES OWED TO THE CITY.

THE MEASURE HAS SINCE EXPANDED TO INCLUDE DIRECT CASH PAYMENTS THAT CAN BE USED AT RECIPIENTS DISCRETION.

PROGRAM IS NOW UNDER FIRE AS A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT IS CHALLENGING THE CITY'S USE OF RACE AS AN ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENT.

JOINING US NOW WITH MORE ARE ONE OF THE ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS IN THE LAWSUIT ATTORNEY CHRISTINE STENSON.

AND JOINING US VIA ZOOM, JUSTIN HANSFORD, A LAW PROFESSOR AT HOWARD UNIVERSITY.

WE SHOULD MENTION WE DID INVITE THE CITY OF EVANSTON, BUT THEY DECLINED TO JOIN BUT SAID IN A STATEMENT, QUOTE, WE WILL VEHEMENTLY DEFEND ANY LAWSUIT BROUGHT AGAINST OUR CITIES REPARATIONS PROGRAM.

I THINK THE 2 OF YOU, CHRISTINE AND JUSTIN, FOR JOINING US.

CHRISTINE SENSE OF LET'S START WITH YOU, PLEASE.

WHAT IS THE LEGAL ARGUMENT AGAINST THE REPARATIONS PROGRAM?

SO FIRST OF ALL, FAIRNESS, I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I HOST I'M SORRY.

I FILED THIS LAWSUIT IN CONJUNCTION WITH JUDICIAL WATCH INC, WHICH IS A GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY LAW FIRM BASED IN WASHINGTON, D.C. >> AND I'D ALSO LIKE TO STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT THE EVILS OF SLAVERY AND MORE RECENTLY THE EVILS OF REDLINING ARE TERRIBLE THINGS AND THEY'RE EXTREMELY I UNDERSTAND WHY THE CITY OF EVANSTON DID THIS TO ADDRESS THOSE WRONGS.

HOWEVER, THE PROBLEM IS, BUT THE CITY OF EVANSTON, HE'S NOW PUT THEMSELVES IN THE BUSINESS OF CHOOSING WINNERS AND LOSERS BECAUSE THEY ARE USING RACE AS A PROXY TO MAKE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS.

AND THAT IS VIOLATIVE OF THE 14 PEOPLE PROTECTION CLAUSE OF THE 14TH AMENDMENT.

NOW, ACCORDING TO THE LAWSUIT, YOU ALL SAY REMEDYING SOCIETAL DISCRIMINATION IS NOT A COMPELLING GOVERNMENTAL INTEREST.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS STATED SO DEFINITIVE DEFINITIVELY END A RICHMOND VERSUS KROESE.

AND THAT WAS I BELIEVE IN 1989 THE CONSIDERED IT'S NOT THIS EXACT ISSUE, BASICALLY OF COURSE, IS GOING TO BE VISITED WITH THE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION CASE.

STUDENTS FREE ADMISSIONS CASE RECENTLY WAS HANDED DOWN.

THAT DECISION WAS HANDED DOWN LAST YEAR.

AND SUPREME COURT HAS REPEATEDLY SAID, BUT THEY ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS RENTING A SOCIETAL DISCRIMINATION.

JUSTIN HANSFORD WANT TO GET YOU IN HERE.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THIS LAWSUIT AND TO PARTS OF CHRISTINE'S ARGUMENT?

>> SURE.

SO YOU KNOW THIS.

THIS IS A BIGGER CONVERSATION AROUND THE MEANING OF THE 14TH THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT WAS A LIE.

9TH 18 68 WHEN THE 14TH AMENDMENT WAS PASSED, THAT THERE WAS NO SPECIFIC EFFORT TO TRY TO USE THAT 14TH AMENDMENT.

DO INTEGRATE FORMERLY ENSLAVED PEOPLE INTO AMERICAN SOCIETY WHERE ADVOCATE FOR END OF RACIAL INJUSTICE, SPECIFICALLY BY IDENTIFYING THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED BY RACISM AND PROVIDING A REMEDY FOR THAT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT INSTEAD THE 14TH AMENDMENT SAID SUPPOSE ARISE AND BE BLIND TO RAISE.

AND THAT'S THAT'S A BIG MISTAKE.

AND IN TERMS READING THE 14TH AMENDMENT HERE WE SEE OF THE MISTAKE THAT CONTINUES.

ARE ROTTEN THIS IDEA THAT YOU COULD NOT PROVIDE A PARTICULAR REMEDY FOR META BRIDE SOCIETAL HARM, ABSTRACT WAY.

IT BUT PEOPLE ARE SAYING HAPPENED AND AT THIS BUT WE HAVE A VERY PARTICULAR AISD CONCRETE.

BY THE CITY OF EVANSTON EXPLICITLY ARTICULATING HOW THIS POLICY, WHICH BETWEEN 1919, IN 1969, WAS AT HARMING BLACK CITIZENS IN PARTICULAR AS CONTINUE TO IMPACT THE ONGOING WEALTH GAP AND THE CITY OF EVANSTON.

THIS IS POLICY, OF COURSE, THAT WE SAW HAPPENING ALL THE KINDS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE 20TH CENTURY'S AND THERE ARE IMPLICATIONS BETTER NATIONAL YOU.

BUT I THINK THAT 2 MISTAKES THANKING OUR NUMBER THE MISTAKE FEELING THAT THE 14TH AMENDMENT IS ASKING WIND OURSELVES TO REALITY AND PRETEND THAT RACISM CANNOT CAN BE ADDRESSED.

KOLR BLINDNESS.

AND I THINK THAT IS NOT VISION AND OF THE 14TH AMENDMENT.

SECONDLY, I THINK THE MISTAKE IS FEELING THAT THIS.

PARTICULAR PROGRAM TO ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS FOR REPAIR FOR COULD SAY CUELLAR.

SPECIFIC HARMS THAT WERE OUTLINED IN DETAIL ARE THE EQUIVALENT OF ABSTRACT SOCIETAL APPROACHES TO TRY TO THE DISCRIMINATION TENSION LARGE.

I THINK SO KRISTIN PARKER CHRISTINE'S, HE'S PART OF YOUR SUIT ARGUES THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE FOR THE REPARATIONS PAYMENTS.

>> ONLY HAVE TO MEET CERTAIN CRITERIA AS FAR AS WHEN THEIR ANCESTORS MAY HAVE LIVED IN EVANSTON, AND THEIR THEIR CURRENT AGE TODAY.

>> BUT THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO PROVE THAT THEY OR THEIR EVANSTON ANCESTORS WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

SHOULD THAT BE NECESSARY THAT THAT THERE IS THE PROOF THAT THEY WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST SOMEHOW PARTICULARLY IN THE REALM OF HOUSING'S.

THAT IS FIRST SECTION OF THE CITY'S PROGRAM.

SO IT SHOULD BE.

AND U.S. SUPREME COURT JURISPRUDENCE HAS STATED AS SUCH.

AND NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER PRONG INVOLVED HERE, WHICH IS THE FACT THAT NOT ONLY MUST THERE BE A COMPELLING GOVERNMENT INTEREST, BUT ALSO THAT IT MUST THAT INTEREST MUST BE IN A NARROWLY TAILORED FASHION.

AND IN THIS INSTANCE, CORRECT, THE THE PROGRAM DOES NOT LIMIT ELIGIBILITY.

2 PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DISCRIMINATION.

IN ADDITION MORE RACE-NEUTRAL MEANS COULD HAVE BEEN UTILIZED BY THE CITY OF EVANSTON INSOFAR THEY COULD HAVE ASKED FOR.

PEOPLE TO PROVIDE PROOF OF HOUSING DISCRIMINATION AND THEY DID NOT.

SO IT'S OVERLY BROAD.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE SWORD AND SHOULD HAVE MUCH MORE NARROWLY TAILORED TO ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS.

JUSTIN.

DOES IT SEEM TO YOU, YOU KNOW, THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE INVOLVED IN PUTTING SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS WERE YOU ALL PREPARED AND EXPECT IN THESE LAWSUITS AND >> DO YOU SEE THIS ONE SORT OF AN OUTGROWTH SEVERAL LAWSUITS AROUND THE COUNTRY IN A POST FROM OF ACTION.

REALITY.

I KNOW I DO.

I DO NOT SEE THIS AS AN OUTGROWTH >> LOSSES THAT TARGET AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BECAUSE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS COMPLETELY FROM OF ACTION.

IT'S ABOUT PROMOTING DIVERSITY.

AND IT COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM THE PROCESS OF PROVIDING A REMEDY FOR A PARTICULAR HARM.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS REALLY QUICKLY, LET'S ONE QUICK REALITY CHECK.

AFRICAN AMERICAN IN 1919, WANTED TO GET A MORTGAGE IN THE CITY OF EVANSTON AND THE CITY HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THEY HAD LISTS.

IT AGREEMENTS TO NOT GIVE YOU THAT MORTGAGE.

SO HOW HOW ARE WE BRINGING A LAWSUIT 2024?

SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TO AS DESCENDANT OF THAT BLACK PERSON AS YOU WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST SOON WE HAVE A STARTING POINT, ASSUMING THAT YOU WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN 1919, AS A BLACK PERSON IN THE CITY OF EVANSTON IN THIS CITY IS BASICALLY TELL YOU IN ITS REPORT THAT NO, WE SPECIFICALLY SAID ALL BLACKS ARE BARRED FROM HAVING HOMES IN THIS PARTICULAR REGION OF OUR TOWN PERIOD.

SO IT'S A IN PRICE HARD.

IT IS HARD FOR US TO REALLY.

TAKE THE COLOR BLINDNESS CONCEPT AND APPLY IT TO BE BECAUSE THE CAUSE FOR SUCH AS STRETCHING.

SO WHAT REAL?

AND I DIDN'T REALLY SAY EVEN THE CITY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WAS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST BLACK FOR A TIME PERIOD.

>> WELL, WELL, AFTER SLAVERY CHRISTINE, DO YOU THINK GOVERNMENTS CAN DO ANYTHING?

CAN THEY MAKE UP FOR PAST RACIALLY DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES WITHOUT TAKING RACE INTO ACCOUNT?

NO, I MEAN, THEY CAN'T.

AND I WOULD ALSO I MIGHT DISAGREE WITH MY FRIEND BECAUSE I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT IT IS CLEAR THAT IT WAS THE CITY OF EVANSTON THAT DISCRIMINATED.

>> AGAINST AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

ONE COULD ARGUE THAT IT WAS THE BANKS ARE THAT IT WAS THE MORTGAGE LENDERS AND PERHAPS GOVERNMENT.

BUT THE FEDERAL, FHA, PERHAPS THEY THEY SHOULD CONSIDER LAWSUITS AGAINST THEM.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE CAUSAL CAUSATION ISSUES SUING THE CITY OF EVANSTON.

I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT ONE TALKS ABOUT INJUSTICE, BUT HOW IS IT JUST FOR THE TAXPAYER OF EVANSTON, SOMEONE WHO'S LIVED THERE FOR 10 YEARS.

BUT SOMEONE CAME FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY WHY IS IT JUST FOR THEM TO REMEDY THESE WRONGS?

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ANCESTORS WEREN'T EVEN THERE.

SO NOW WE'RE ASKING FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE WRONGS TO ACTUALLY PAY FOR IT BECAUSE THE EVANSTON TAXPAYER, IT'S PAID FOR WITH HOMEWORLD TAXPAYER DOLLARS DIRECTLY COMING OUT OF THOSE EVAN STONE IAN'S THAT LIVE THERE RIGHT NOW.

JUST WE'VE GOT 30 SECONDS LEFT TO LET YOU RESPOND TO THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, MY MY FIRST REACTION IS I'M GLAD IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THE BANKS IN THE MORTGAGE COMPANIES AND THE FHA ARE ALSO AT FAULT HERE.

SO I'M GLAD THAT MY FRIEND CONCEDES THAT THERE IS MULTIPLE POSSIBILITIES IN TERMS OF PROVIDING REDRESS FOR THIS FROM.

AND I KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, MY TAX DOLLARS HAVE PAYING EVERYTHING RECOVERY FROM HURRICANES IN FLORIDA THAT I DIDN'T CALL HIGHS.

YOU KNOW, MY TAX DOLLARS GO.

GREY NIGHT IN CARS THAT CONFLICT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS.

MY TAX DOLLARS GO TO TO SOLVE IN THE WORLD THAT I DIDN'T CAUSE.

I THINK THAT'S MISUNDERSTANDING OF HOW OUR GOVERNMENT WORKS.

TRYING TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT IN THIS SOCIETY AND TRYING TO WERE RIGHTEOUS AND BE ON THE GOOD SIDE AND RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.

THAT WERE PART OF HIS POSITIVES THAT MOVING FORWARD.

I THINK MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT UNDERGRAD AS WELL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

I'M GLAD WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.