>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, AS CHAOS ERUPTS IN WASHINGTON, ONE OF NEW MEXICO'S NEWEST REPUBLICANS OBJECTS TO THE VOTE COUNT.

PLUS -- >> Serge: HOPED THAT IT WOULD FIX ITSELF AND THE MARKET WOULD SOMEHOW WORK.

THAT DOES NOT WORK.

>> Gene: WITH A CHANGE OF POWER, WHAT IS AHEAD FOR THE PREDICTED FLOOD OF EVICTIONS?

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF HEAVY HEARTS THIS WEEK AS PRO TRUMP RIOTERS TOOK OVER THE U.S. CAPITOL ATTEMPTING TO STOP CONGRESS FROM CERTIFYING ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES THAT MAKES JOE BIDEN THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THAT AS NEWLY ELECTED REPUBLICAN CONGRESS WOMAN YVETTE HERRELL FROM CD2 OBJECTS TO THE VOTE.

THE LINE WILL DISCUSS.

WE'LL ALSO LOOK AT CHRISTMAS SERVICES AT TWO ALBUQUERQUE MEGA CHURCHES THAT FLOUTED PUBLIC HEALTH ORDERS AND A ANTIDISCRIMINATION LAW IN THE DUKE CITY.

OUR LAND RETURNS WITH A LOOK AT A PROPOSED LAW THAT EXPANDS BANDELIER NATIONAL MONUMENT BUT AT WHAT COST TO SOVEREIGN NATIVE TRIBES?

WE BEGIN WITH THE LINE.

>> YVETTE HERRELL CLAIMED A RIGGED ELECTION WHEN SHE LOST TWO YEARS AGO.

AFTER WINNING THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN NOVEMBER, COMPLAINING OF OTHER ELECTORAL PROBLEMS, NOW, AS VIOLENT PRO TRUMP DEMONSTRATORS DESCENDED ON THE CAPITOL WEDNESDAY, SHE PLANNED TO OBJECT TO ELECTORATES FROM SIX STATES ALONG WITH MORE THAN 100 OTHER REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES.

GIVEN THE SUDDEN VIOLENCE, SOME EXPECTED HER TO CHANGE COURSE IN HER OBJECTIONS TO VOTES IN ARIZONA AND PENNSYLVANIA.

SHE DID NOT.

HERE TO OFFER THOUGHTS OUR LINE OPINION PANEL, PRESIDENT OF COLLECTIVE ACTION STRATEGY, GIOVANNA ROSSI IS WITH US.

THANK YOU.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

FROM SIARZA SOCIAL DIGITAL, FOUNDER CRYSTAL KRISTELLE SIARZA JOINING US AS WELL.

GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

GREAT TO HAVE JUSTINE FOX-YOUNG BACK WITH US.

SHE IS A FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE AND A LOCAL ATTORNEY.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

ALL RIGHT, HERE IS WHAT REPRESENTATIVE HERRELL WROTE ABOUT THE DECISION, QUOTE, MY HOPE IS THAT ELEVATING THIS DEBATE TO THE HIGHEST AND FINAL LEVEL THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES WILL RESULT IN A CONTINUED DISCUSSION OF OUR ELECTORAL PROCESS.

ACTION MUST BE TAKEN TO RESTORE AMERICANS FAITH IN OUR FAIRNESS OF OUR ELECTIONS AND LEGITIMACY OF OUR INSTITUTIONS, END QUOTE.

JUSTINE, DID SHE ACCOMPLISH HER GOAL?

>> Justine: TO THE EXTENT THERE IS A REAL ISSUE THERE, AND I THINK THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO THINK THAT THERE ARE ISSUES OF VOTER INTEGRITY WITH THE NUMBER OF VOTES THAT ARE CAST BEFORE ELECTION DAY, YOU KNOW, REALLY BINAL TECHNICAL ISSUES LIKE SIGNATURES VERIFICATION AND EXTENDING ABSENTEE BALLOT DEADLINES.

>> Gene: ALL THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A DECADE?

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> Justine: YEAH.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN THE LEGISLATURE, THESE ARE ONGOING LEGISLATIVE FIGHTS.

I THINK THERE IS A PROCESS AND IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR OUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO THE EXTENT THEY THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO RAISE THESE ISSUES.

I DON'T TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT.

I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HER GOAL IS, THOUGH.

I MEAN, I THINK YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN IN SOME OF THE COMMENTS, IN THE LAST 24 HOURS FROM PEOPLE LIKE TOM COTTON, AND OTHERS, YEAH, THERE IS A MEATY ISSUE THERE.

THERE IS WORK FOR STATE LEGISLATURES TO DO, YOU KNOW, TO THE EXTENT THERE IS DOUBT ABOUT ELECTION RESULTS, BUT A LOT OF THIS IS JUST POLITICAL THEATER, FUND RAISING, IT IS CAPITALIZING ON A MOMENT.

I DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE ABOUT WHAT YVETTE HERRELL WANTS TO MAKE OUT OF THIS MOMENT BUT IF IT IS SUBSTANTIVE CHANGES IN, SAY, NEW MEXICO LAW OR PENNSYLVANIA LAW OR GEORGIA LAW, SHE IS NOT IN A POSITION TO EFFECT THOSE CHANGES.

AND THIS HAS HAPPENED -- THERE IS PRECEDENT FOR THIS IN MANY PRIOR ELECTIONS WHERE CONGRESS DEBATES THESE ISSUES AND RAISES THESE ISSUES AT THE POINT OF WHERE WE WERE YESTERDAY AS WE CERTIFIED THE ELECTION AND THAT IS NOT IMPROPER.

BUT RAISING IT TO A FEVER PITCH, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WANTS TO RAISE MONEY OUT OF IT, IF SHE WANTS TO INHERIT THE PIERCE LEGACY ON THIS.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT I DON'T SEE HER ACTIVATING OR MOTIVATING THE LEGISLATURE WHO NEED TO DO THE WORK THAT I THINK SHE IS ASKING.

>> Gene: YOUR LAST POINT THERE WAS KIND OF WHAT HAS BEEN IN MY HEAD AS WELL.

GIOVANNA, LET ME READ YOU PARTLY HER QUOTE, AS A STATE REPRESENTATIVE, OF NEW MEXICO, PENNSYLVANIA'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTIONS DISENFRANCHISE MY CONSTITUENTS IN AND THE CONSTITUENTS OF MY COLLEAGUES.

HOW?

I DON'T GET THE CONNECTION THERE.

>> Giovanna: WHEN I HEARD THAT ON THE CLIP WHEN SHE SAID THAT, IT WAS REALLY CONFUSING.

AND, SO, I THINK SHE, YOU KNOW, SOME STAFFER PUT THAT IN THE COMMENTS BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT, OH, WE NEED TO MAKE A CONNECTION TO NEW MEXICO BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE MAD ABOUT HER DOING THIS.

YOU DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU NEEDED TO DO THERE.

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT BY PARTICIPATING IN THAT EFFORT IN THE POLITICAL THEATER SHE WAS PART OF ENABLING WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.

SHE WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND, I DON'T THINK ANY AMOUNT OF EXPLAINING AWAY NOW CAN HELP HER IN THIS SITUATION.

I THINK WE NEED TO CALL IT LIKE IT IS AND, YOU KNOW, AND SAY, LIKE, THAT WAS ENABLING THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.

IT WAS UNACCEPTABLE AS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS TO DO THAT.

>> Gene: KRISTELLE, I PROBABLY SHOULD LET THE VIEWERS KNOW AS WE AIR THIS FRIDAY NIGHT AND WE ARE TAPING THIS ON THURSDAY MIDDAY, A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS COULD HAVE HAPPENED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

I APOLOGIZE TO THE VIEWERS IN CASE SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED BUT ON THAT NOTE, MS. HERRELL DID SAY WHAT HAPPENED ON CAPITOL HILL WAS REPREHENSIBLE.

THAT WAS A QUOTE ON TWITTER.

SHE HAS ALSO ALIGNED HERSELF, HOWEVER, WITH THE COWBOYS FOR TRUMP.

GRIFFIN, WHO WAS PICTURED AT THE EVENT, HE WAS AT THE U.S. CAPITOL YESTERDAY WHEN ALL THIS WAS GOING ON, NOT INSIDE, PICTURE WAS HIM OUTSIDE.

SHE HAS WALKED THIS AMAZINGLY THIN LINE FOR A LOT OF MONTHS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS STUFF AND THIS GUY COUY GRIFFIN.

SHE ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE HAVING TO ANSWER FOR HIM AND HER ASSOCIATION WITH HIM.

DOES THIS DO SOMETHING ABOUT HER CREDIBILITY WHEN WE HEAR HER SAY THESE THINGS?

>> Kristelle: IT IS A GREAT QUESTION IN TERMS OF CREDIBILITY BECAUSE WHEN I HEARD THE SPEECH, I SAID, WOW, WHOEVER WROTE THAT FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP OF LEGISLATORS THAT ARE THE OPPOSITION MUST BE PROUD ABOUT THE FACT HOW WELL SHE READ SOMEBODY ELSE'S STATEMENT AND I ALSO THINK THAT YVETTE HERRELL, AND, OBVIOUSLY, DANCING WITH COWBOYS FOR TRUMP, WHO I HAVE UNFORTUNATELY MET THROUGH TWITTER, LIKE MANY OF US HAVE, IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THAT SOME OF HER FIRST WORDS WERE, IT IS UNFORTUNATE THIS IS GOING TO BE -- THIS TOPIC IS GOING TO BE MY FIRST SPEECH AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

WHAT MADE WE -- WHEN I HEARD THAT, I SAID TO MYSELF, WELL, IT WILL BE THE FIRST AND ONLY SPEECH THAT WILL DICTATE YOUR LOYALTY TO THE PARTY AND WHICH SIDE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY YOU HAVE CHOSEN.

AND I SAY THIS BECAUSE UNDER REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS LIKE SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM SAID SOMETHING THAT MADE ME JUST SAY, I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SAY THIS -- I NEVER WOULD IMAGINE THAT I WOULD SEE THE DAY AND HE SAID, THE MOB GOT ME TO DO SOMETHING I NEVER DO WHICH IS ADMIT THAT SENATOR RAND PAUL IS RIGHT.

SHE COULD HAVE SAID THOSE SAME EXACT SWORDS, SHE COULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING ALONG THOSE SAME PARTY LINES.

THAT SPEECH FOR HER AS CANDID AS READ AS IT SOUNDS, EVEN IF SHE VOTED TO UPHOLD THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE SHE WOULD STILL HAVE A STRONG LEGISLATIVE VOTING SUPPORT IN THE COUNTIES THAT SHE REPRESENTS.

THE FACT THAT SHE CHOSE THIS PORTION OF THE AISLE MAY AFFECT HER RE-ELECTION IN TWO YEARS.

SHE COULD HAVE DISAGREED AND SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE.

THIS IS HERE OUT THE LEGACY FROM DAY ONE.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINT THERE.

I HAVE TO FOLLOW-UP WITH JUSTINE ON THAT POINT.

POLITICAL FUTURE FOR YVETTE, I HAVE TO IMAGINE SHE MIGHT HAVE GONE INTO THIS THINKING, WELL, I AM EX-LEGISLATOR IN NEW MEXICO.

I COULD WALK BACK THERE AND SWING A BIG HAMMER ABOUT REFORM IF I JOIN THIS AND IF THINGS WORK OUT OUR WAY, BUT IT DIDN'T, SO IT SEEMS TO ME HOW WOULD SHE CREDIBLY COME BACK TO NEW MEXICO AND SAY WE NEED TO DO SOME REFORM THINGS THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

DOES THAT WORK?

>> Justine: LET ME ANSWER A DIFFERENT QUESTION THAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT I WISH THERE WERE MORE CONVERSATION AROUND ELECTORAL COLLEGE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO EVERYBODY WHO IS NOT IN ONE OF THESE SIX STATES THAT MATTERS THIS ELECTION.

I THINK WHAT YVETTE HERRELL IS FEELING IS NOT MISPLACED.

SHE DIDN'T ARTICULATE IT VERY WELL BUT WHEN SHE SAYS OUR FATES DEPEND ON PENNSYLVANIA AND MICHIGAN.

THIS IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS COUNTRY AND AS WE BECOME MORE POLARIZED AS THE NUMBER OF SWING STATES HAS DIMINISHED, PLACES LIKE NEW MEXICO FIND THEMSELVES WITHOUT A VOICE.

AND IT IS VERY HARD AS A REPRESENTATIVE FROM A STATE WHICH IS NOW A FLY-OVER STATE, AS FAR AS PROVINCIAL POLITICS IS CONCERNED WHO HAVE A VOICE, SO YOU END UP JUMPING ON THE BANDWAGON AND OF WAVING THE FLAG BECAUSE YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T DELIVER ANOTHER WAY.

THAT IS A PROBLEM FOR OUR COUNTRY.

I THINK THAT SHOULD BE A BIGGER CONVERSATION PIECE THAN SOME OF THE OTHER ELECTORAL REFORMS THAT ARE BEING DISCUSSED BUT I THINK THAT IS WHAT SHE IS TRYING TO SAY.

YOU KNOW.

WE ARE AT THE MERCY OF THESE SWING STATES.

>> Gene: FAIR ENOUGH.

MAYBE IF SHE HAD WRITTEN IT HERSELF AND IT HAD COME FROM HER OWN HEART THAT MIGHT HAVE COME ACROSS A LITTLE MORE.

IT LAID FLAT.

>> Justine: ALL THESE STUMP SPEECHES DO.

THEY SAY VERY LITTLE ANYMORE.

>> Giovanna: THIS WAS A POLITICAL STUNT AND IT WAS UNACCEPTABLE AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE PEOPLE REALLY WORKING AGAINST HER IN HER NEXT ELECTION.

>> Justine: I THINK THAT IS REALLY TRUE.

>> Gene: WE ARE OUT OF TIME ON THIS TOPIC.

DON'T GO ANYWHERE.

WE ARE TALKING EVICTIONS NEXT.

>> Herrera: THESE DAYS, AS YOU CAN SEE, SINCE THE FIRST POINT OF CONTACT FIVE OR 600 YEARS AGO, WHERE THE AMERICAN INDIAN IS NOW TODAY AND WHAT DO YOU PICTURE IT TO BE IN ANOTHER 500 YEARS.

IS THERE GOING TO BE SITES AVAILABLE FOR OUR CHILDREN TO HELP MAINTAIN THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND KEEP THEIR WAY OF LIFE?

>> Gene: THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC PERSISTS IN ITS VIRAL ATTACK AND CONTINUES TO THROW LIGHT ON HOW IMPORTANT HOUSING IS TO PEOPLE'S HEALTH.

THERE HAS BEEN A SMALL EXTENSION OF THE NATIONAL MORATORIUM ON EVICTIONS, AND OUR STATE'S MORATORIUM REMAINS IN EFFECT AS LONG AS THE SUPREME COURT SAYS SO.

BUT UNLESS THE HOUSING CRISIS IS DEALT WITH HEAD ON MANY BELIEVE MORATORIUMS JUST KICK THE CAN DOWN THE LOAD, AS THEY SAY.

TO LOOK AT EVICTIONS AND HOUSING RIGHTS, HERE IS MEGAN KAMERICK WITH UNM LAW PROFESSOR HOUSING ADVOCATE AND LINE PANELIST SERGE MARTINEZ.

>> Megan: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AT NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

THE NATIONAL EVICTION MORATORIUM SET TO END LAST DAY OF 2020 WAS EXTENDED FOR ONE MONTH.

LAWMAKERS STRUCK THE CORONA VIRUS DEAL ON DECEMBER 20 TO EXTEND THE MORATORIUM THROUGH THE END OF JANUARY.

AND ESTABLISHED AN ASSISTANCE RENTAL FUND OF 25 BILLION-DOLLARS.

HOW DOES THAT NEW DEAL TRANSLATE FOR NEW MEXICANS?

>> Serge: SO THE MORATORIUM, CDC IMPOSED MORATORIUM IS, YOU KNOW, IN NEW MEXICO IT MAY NOT HAVE THAT MUCH IMPACT BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE THIS STAY THAT WAS ISSUED BY OUR STATE SUPREME COURT BACK IN MARCH SAYING -- SETTING IN PLACE AND IS STILL KEEPING PEOPLE FROM BEING EVICTED FROM NOT PAYING THEIR RENT.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THAT WILL LAST AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE TO MAKE IT A LITTLE BIT MORE ROBUST, BUT IN TERMS OF HOW THAT EXTENSION OF THE FEDERAL MORATORIUM AFFECTS FOLKS IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO BE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN HOW THAT AFFECTS INDIVIDUAL RENTERS FACING EVICTION.

25 BILLION, OUR SHARE OF THAT IN NEW MEXICO LOOKS TO BE 200 MILLION AND IT IS NOT CLEAR EXACTLY HOW THAT WILL BE DISTRIBUTED, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS PURELY FOR RENT AND HOW MUCH MIGHT GO TO OTHER THINGS LIKE UTILITIES.

THAT IS A BIG POT OF MONEY THAT WILL BE COMING TO NEW MEXICO.

SO, WE CAN LOOK TO THAT AS I THINK PROVIDING SOME RELIEF TO TENANTS AND LANDLORDS WHO HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING IN THIS PANDEMIC.

THE ALLOCATION OF THAT MONEY LEAVES GAPS AND FOLKS WILL BE UNCOVERED AND DOESN'T ADDRESS ALL THE POTENTIAL -- THE FOLKS WHO MIGHT BE POTENTIALLY IN NEED OF THAT, BUT IT IS A GOOD START.

>> Megan: SO, ACCORDING TO DATA FROM THE CENSUS SURVEY OVER A MONTH AGO ONE IN FIVE ADULT RENTERS SAID THEY WERE BEHIND ON THEIR RENT.

DO YOU FIND SIMILAR STATISTICS HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Serge: WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE BUT ANECDOTALLY AND CERTAINLY BASED ON WHAT I HEAR FROM AROUND THE STATES AND SEEING WHAT IS GOING ON, THAT SOUNDS CERTAINLY NOT TOO LOW OR NOT TOO HIGH, RATHER.

IT MAY BE TOO LOW GIVEN THE ECONOMIC ISSUES WE ALREADY HAVE HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND HOUSING INSTABILITY THAT WAS ALREADY HERE BEFORE MARCH WHEN ALL THIS EXACERBATED.

WHATEVER THE ACTUAL NUMBERS ARE, THEY ARE SHOCKINGLY HIGH.

>> Megan: IT IS VERY HIGH AND EVICTIONS WORSEN THE SPREAD OF COVID-19.

THERE IS A BIG STUDY OF THAT.

25 BILLION-DOLLARS ONLY COVERS ONE QUARTER OF BACK RENT THAT IS OWED.

HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY.

NEW ADMINISTRATION COMING IN, IS IT TOO LATE TO STEM THE SPREAD OF COVID-19 FROM EVICTIONS?

>> Serge: I DON'T THINK IT IS TOO LATE.

I THINK WE ARE GETTING TO A POINT, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING FOR MONTHS ABOUT THE WAVE OF EVICTIONS THAT IS GOING TO BE COMING AND THERE HAS BEEN STOP GAP MEASURES AND THE CAN HAS BEEN KICKED DOWN THE ROAD.

WE ARE GETTING TO A POINT NOW WHERE THE AMOUNT OF BACK RENT THAT HAS BEEN STAYED OR DELAYED IS GOING TO BECOME UNPAYABLE.

SO EVEN WHEN FOLKS GET BACK TO WORK OR WHATNOT, THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE IN A POSITION TO PAY.

IT IS 100 BILLION DOLLARS OF BACK RENT.

BECAUSE OF THE HALF MEASURES THAT HAVE BEEN IN PLACE THAT WORKED WELL ENOUGH, RIGHT, WE DON'T SEE THE HUGE MASS DISLOCATION.

THAT DAY IS COMING WE JUST DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THAT WILL BE, BUT WHAT IS NEEDED IS IMMEDIATE, INTENSIVE INTERVENTION RIGHT NOW TO STOP THAT, BECAUSE, YOU'RE RIGHT, WHEN PEOPLE ARE DISLOCATED IT IS NOT JUST THE THEIR BELONGINGS, RIGHT, THE CORONA VIRUS THRIVES IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

>> Megan: EARLY IN 2020 YOU AND A COUPLE OTHERS FORMED A GROUP CALLED AMPARO WHICH MEANS PROTECTION REFUGE SHELTER AND IT WAS CREATED TO RAPIDLY DISTRIBUTE RENTAL ASSISTANCE TO FAMILIES IN ALBUQUERQUE WHO HAVE KIDS.

IT IS A PRETTY NARROW FOCUS AND THE ORGANIZATION JUST STARTED OUT.

YOU CREATED AMPARO BECAUSE YOU WERE COMING ACROSS FAMILIES FACING EVICTIONS WHEN RESOURCES WERE AVAILABLE BECAUSE GETTING THOSE RESOURCES WAS OFTEN REALLY CUMBERSOME AND SLOW MOVING.

IN AN E-MAIL TO OUR PRODUCER HERE AT IN FOCUS YOU SAID, I AM GOING TO QUOTE YOU, I HAVE MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT AMPARO.

I ABSOLUTELY THINK IT FILLS A NEED AND I'M SO PLEASED WITH ALL THE LOVE AND SUPPORT WE HAVE GOTTEN FROM FOLKS, BUT I'M ANGRY THAT IT EXISTS AT ALL BECAUSE THAT MEANS THE STATE IS NOT TREATING HOUSING AS A PRIORITY LET ALONE A HUMAN RIGHT.

WHAT MUST THE STATE DO TO MAKE HOUSING A PRIORITY?

>> Serge: I THINK THE FIRST STEP IS TO RECOGNIZE REALLY HOW IMPORTANT HOUSING IS TO ALL THE THINGS WE WANT TO ACCOMPLISH AS A STATE IN HOUSING INSTABILITY.

WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST 10 MONTHS WHAT IT MEANS FOR PUBLIC HEALTH BUT WE HAVEN'T REALLY ALSO UNDERSTOOD WHAT IT MEANS FOR INDIVIDUAL HEALTH, MENTAL HEALTH, FOR COMMUNITY STABILITY BUT WE TREAT IT AS THIS SORT OF COMMODITY AND HOPE THE MARKET WILL ADDRESS IT RATHER THAN SOMETHING THAT IS A RIGHT AND A BEDROCK FOUNDATION.

SO, HERE IN NEW MEXICO WE DON'T EVEN HAVE ANYBODY WHOSE JOB IT IS AT THE STATE LEVEL TO COORDINATE AND DISCUSS ALL THE HOUSING ISSUES THAT WE HAVE AS A STATE.

WE HAVE DIFFERENT FOLKS WHO HAVE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE JOB BUT I HAVE BEEN FOR QUITE SOME TIME SUGGESTING AND ADVOCATING FOR US TO HAVE SOMEBODY WHOSE JOB IT IS, A DEPARTMENT OR A PERSON IN A PARTICULAR POSITIONS, WHOSE JOB IT IS TO UNDERSTAND AND COORDINATE ALL THE STRANDS OF HOUSING TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE CENTRALITY OF STABLE HOUSING IN EVERYTHING WE DO IN NEW MEXICO AND TO PUT RESOURCES TOWARD IT, RIGHT, RATHER THAN RELY AS WE ARE DOING, RIGHT, ON SMALL NONPROFITS, ON INDIVIDUAL DONATIONS, ON DISTORTED AND DISBURSED SOURCES OF ASSISTANCE RATHER THAN LOOKING AT TREATING IT AS A STATE -- AS A PRIORITY OF OUR STATE AND CREATE A SORT OF A SINGLE FOCUS ON IT.

AND, AS I SAID, IT IS EASY TO TALK ABOUT IT BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO PUT RESOURCES TOWARD THAT.

>> Megan: IT REMINDS ME OF EARLY CHILDHOOD ISSUES BECAUSE THOSE ARE SCATTERED ACROSS DEPARTMENTS AND NOW WE HAVE A SECRETARY FOCUSED ON EARLY CHILDHOOD.

>> Serge: YES, I THINK IT IS A GOOD ANALOGY BECAUSE THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE TRYING TO CREATE AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND DEVELOP MORE HOUSING.

THERE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT HEALTH, PUBLIC HEALTH.

FOLKS WORRIED ABOUT COMMUNITY AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

BUT THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE PERSONS WHOSE JOB IT IS OR PLACE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO BRING THAT ALL TOGETHER AND SORT OF COORDINATE ALL THE EFFORTS AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WE ARE DOING.

AND, AGAIN, IT IS ALSO SYMBOLIC RIGHT?

THE LACK OF THAT SHOWS WHAT WE DO AND DON'T CARE ABOUT IN NEW MEXICO IN TERMS OF WHAT WE THINK THE ROLE OF OUR STATE IS IN HELPING THE FOLKS WHO LIVE HERE.

>> Megan: WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING AT A NATIONAL LEVEL TO MAKE HOUSING A PRIORITY?

>> Serge: FIRST OF ALL, RECOGNIZING THAT IT IS A REAL ISSUE AND SOMETHING THAT CONGRESS HAS BEEN DOING, THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, PUSHING AND GETTING SOME MONEY OUT THE DOOR AND PUTTING MEASURES IN PLACE.

BUT, I THINK ALL OF THE HALTING, THE STAYS AND THE MORATORIUMS, THEY ARE REALLY -- THEY ARE HALF MEASURES.

THEY ARE NOT ADDRESSING THE FULL EXTENT OF THE ISSUE.

THEY ARE SAYING, WELL, LET'S JUST HOLD THIS BACK UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS DOWN THE ROAD AND MISSING THE IDEA THAT WE ARE GOING TO NEED -- PEOPLE, TENANTS AND LANDLORDS HAVE BEEN MISSING MONEY.

THEY HAVE BEEN GOING WITHOUT, RIGHT.

IT NEEDS A REAL COMMITMENT IN THE MOMENT TO ADDRESS THAT.

GOING FORWARD, RIGHT, WE NO LONGER HAVE A TRADITION OF PUBLIC HOUSING IN THIS COUNTRY AND, IN FACT, HAVE LIMITED OUR ABILITY TO EXPAND IT IN SOME WAYS AND WHAT THAT AGAIN SAYS, IS THE MARKET WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO WORRY ABOUT IT RATHER THAN, THIS IS A REAL ISSUE, NOT JUST IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, BUT TO EVERY PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS A RIGHT THAT WE HAVE AND SOMETHING THAT -- SO IF WE CAN PROVIDE HOUSING WE WILL AND REAP THE BENEFITS FROM THAT, BUT FOR SO LONG WE SORT OF HOPED THAT IT WOULD FIX ITSELF AND THAT WORKING WITH THE MARKET IT WOULD SOMEHOW MAGICALLY WORK.

THAT HAS NOT WORKED AND THAT WAS THE PROBLEM BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND ONLY HIGHLIGHTED MORE SO.

WHEN THE VACCINE IS GIVEN TO EVERY PERSON IN AMERICA WE WILL STILL HAVE THIS ISSUE AND THE TIME TO FOCUS ON IT IS NOW RATHER THAN WAIT FOR ANOTHER CRISIS.

>> Megan: WE HAVE SECTION 8 BUT PEOPLE I TALK ANECDOTALLY SAY THAT IS A LONG WAITING LIST.

NEW MEXICO ALSO HAS A SIGNIFICANT POPULATION OF NATIVE AMERICANS AND MANY, THOUGH THEY HAVE HOUSING, THEY ARE LIVING IN SUBSTANDARD OR OVERCROWDED CONDITIONS OFTEN.

MANY OTHERS LACK HOUSING ALTOGETHER.

ON TRIBAL LANDS, MANY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS IN URBAN AREAS AND COVID-19 HAS HIT TRIBAL AREAS AND NATIVE AMERICANS PARTICULARLY HARD WITH POOR HOUSING PLAYING A PART.

MANY ELDERS DON'T BELIEVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CARES ENOUGH TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.

IS THERE A COMMUNITY APPROACH THAT IS THE ANSWER?

>> Serge: I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN, AS YOU ARE SAYING, THE LACK OF ATTENTION TO COMMUNITY, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, IN TRIBAL COMMUNITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

HERE IN NEW MEXICO, PARTICULARLY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE NAVAJO NATION, WHICH SPANS SEVERAL STATES.

SEEING THE LACK OF SUPPORT, INVESTMENT, CONCERN ABOUT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THOSE COMMUNITIES AND REALLY PUSHING FOR PROSPERITY IN TRIBAL COMMUNITIES, WE SEE HOW THAT PLAYS OUT, RIGHT.

THE HOUSING CONDITIONS IN PARTS OF THE TRIBAL COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO ARE JUST DEPLORABLE AND BELOW WHAT MOST FOLKS WOULD THINK ARE ACCEPTABLE IN THIS TIME AND IN THIS PLACE.

YET WE LET IT GO.

UNDERSTANDING THAT WE NEED TO DO MORE IN THAT REALM IS SUPER IMPORTANT BUT I THINK INVESTING IN PROSPERITY AND PUSHING FOR PROSPERITY IN THOSE COMMUNITIES IS KEY AND CRUCIAL.

>> Megan: WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE BUT ARE YOU LOOKING AT ANY PROPOSED BILLS IN THE UPCOMING LEGISLATIVE SESSION THAT WILL ADDRESS HOUSING?

>> Serge: THERE A FEW THINGS UP THERE THAT I THINK WILL BE INTERESTING.

THERE IS AN EFFORT, AND I HAVE BEEN PART OF IT, TO CHANGE SOME OF THE TIMING IN EVICTIONS TO GIVE TENANTS MORE TIME TO WORK THINGS OUT WITH LANDLORDS TO GET THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED, SO IT DOESN'T MOVE QUITE SO QUICKLY, AND TO JUST CREATE MORE TIME FOR PEOPLE TO WORK IT OUT RATHER THAN GO STRAIGHT TO EVICTION.

A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS, ROMERO AND RUBIO REPRESENTATIVES FROM SANTA FE AND LAS CRUCES, HAVE BEEN PUTTING FORWARD A BILL THAT HAS TWEAKS AND CHANGES TO LANDLORD TENANT LAW AND PROCEDURES.

>> Megan: WELL, I APPRECIATE YOU COMING BACK AND TALKING WITH US ABOUT THIS.

OBVIOUSLY IT IS AN ONGOING ISSUE.

I AM SURE WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.

>> Serge: THANKS SO MUCH.

>> Gene: SILENT NIGHT, CROWDED NIGHT.

A VIDEO POSTED BY LEGACY MEGA CHURCH SHOWED A CHRISTMAS SERVICE PACKED WITH WORSHIPERS, MASKLESS AND SINGING.

A SIMILAR VIDEO SURFACED AT THE EVENT AT CALVARY CHURCH IN ALBUQUERQUE.

THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE FINED BOTH LEGACY AND CALVARY FOR NOT ENFORCING MASK MANDATES AND FOR VIOLATING CAPACITY LIMITS.

10,000-DOLLARS EACH.

BOTH CHURCHES HAVE CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST PASTORS, STEVE SMOTHERMAN AND SKIP HEITZIG, AS YOU KNOW, WERE MAKING A STATEMENT.

KRISTELLE, DO YOU THINK THEY GOT SOMETHING ACROSS HERE OR SOMETHING THAT I MISSED OR THE REST OF US MISSED HERE?

>> Kristelle: I AM ACTUALLY TRYING TO PULL UP THE STATEMENTS THAT THEY BOTH MADE.

THAT IS A REALLY DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR COMMENTARY BECAUSE THE CHURCH GOERS THEMSELVES KNEW THE RISKS THAT THEY WERE TAKING BY PARTICIPATING IN CHRISTMAS MASS.

THEN, OBVIOUSLY, THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT WHAT I FOUND VERY -- NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST PUBLIC RELATIONS MOVE, IN MY HONEST OPINION, WAS NOT ONLY DID THEY RESPOND TO SAY, ONE CHURCH SAID, WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT THE $10,000 FINE.

THE OTHER ONE SAID WE DEEPLY APOLOGIZE, WE DID CAUTION EVERYBODY AND WE WERE TRYING TO BE AS CONSCIOUS AS POSSIBLE, CONSIDERING THE SQUARE FOOT CAPACITY OF THE CHURCH.

BUT THEN THEY CAME OUT AND TALKED ABOUT THE GREAT CHARITABLE THINGS THAT THEY DID OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS DURING THE PANDEMIC TO SHOW THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY IN THAT THEY RAISED MONEY.

WHAT HAPPENED TO HUMILITY GUYS?

LIKE COME ON.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT TO SAY LIKE WHO WAS IN THE WRONG AND RIGHT.

OBVIOUSLY THE EASY ANSWER IS, STAY AT HOME, WEAR A MASK AND DON'T PARTICIPATE IN THINGS LIKE THIS.

IT IS ABSOLUTE GOOD LEADERSHIP TO MAKE SURE YOU PROTECT PEOPLE YOU SERVE.

THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE HAS BEEN TREMENDOUSLY SUFFERING BECAUSE OF ALL THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES THAT HAVE BEEN CLOSED BY ALL THIS, BUT NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN SPOTLIGHTED THE WAY THAT LEGACY AND CALVARY DID.

IT IS NOT HARD TO SAY, THOUGH, BUT IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO FIND WAYS TO PRAY TOGETHER IF THAT IS HOW YOU CHOOSE.

>> Gene: GIOVANNA, LET ME READ A QUOTE FROM SKIP HEITZIG FOR LEGACY CHURCH.

HE PROVIDED THIS TO KRQE NEWS 13 ABOUT THE CHRISTMAS DAY SERVICE.

WE HAVE TAKEN THE PANDEMIC SERIOUSLY FROM THE START AND HAVE PRUDENT MEASURES IN PLACE.

BUT, WHEN GOVERNMENTS EXTEND CONSTITUTION AUTHORITY AND CONTRADICT WHAT WE ARE CALLED ON MY GOD TO DO, WE ANSWER FIRST TO HIS AUTHORITY.

INTERESTING POINT THERE.

THERE IS THREE THINGS MIXED UP THERE.

GET YOUR OVERALL TAKE ON THAT QUOTE.

DOES THAT SETTLE THE ISSUE FOR YOU?

>> Giovanna: WHEN I READ THAT, IT JUST -- THAT IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO BRING UP HERE WAS JUST THE BLATANT, YOU KNOW, THE STATEMENT THERE THAT ACTUALLY THE LAW, LIKE, THAT THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW.

I MEAN, THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT HE IS SAYING.

HE IS SAYING A LOT IN THAT STATEMENT BUT WHAT I TOOK AWAY, WAS, WOW, OKAY, HERE IS A LEADER WHO MANY PEOPLE FOLLOW AND HE IS, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY SAYING, WE ARE ABOVE THE LAW.

WE DON'T AGREE WITH THE PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER, THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW IT AND IN THE SAME BREATH HE IS SAYING, LIKE, WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN IN THE PANDEMIC.

IT IS JUST A BIG CONTRADICTION AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LEADERSHIP AND TELLING THE TRUTH AND DOING THE RIGHT THING, NONE OF THOSE BOXES ARE CHECKED HERE AND IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE.

THE FINE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE SEEING THESE FINES WHICH ARE REALLY SMALL, I THINK, COMPARED TO PROBABLY WHAT THEY COULD BE, BUT I DON'T KNOW -- I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE FINES REALLY DO IN TERMS OF A RESPONSE BUT, YEAH, IT WAS AN INSUFFICIENT EXPLANATION FOR WHAT HAPPENED.

>> Gene: APOLOGIZE TO HEITZIG.

HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH CALVARY NOT LEGACY.

GO AHEAD KRISTELLE.

>> Kristelle: IF HE FEELS THAT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAW OF THE LORD IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION WHY DID POPE FRANCIS CHOOSE WHY DID POPE FRANCIS CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE ANY TYPE OF SERVICES FOR BOTH EASTER AND SUNDAY.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EASILY REVIEWED THAT SPECIFIC ARGUMENT.

>> Gene: THE PROBLEM IS, YOU KNOW, CHURCH MEMBERS ARE TRULY VULNERABLE.

WE TALK ABOUT THIS ALL THE TIME.

THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS THE GOVERNOR CUT DOWN THE PERCENTAGES.

DOESN'T THIS BEHAVIOR PUT THOSE VULNERABLE PEOPLE, JUSTINE, AT RISK?

>> Justine: IT DOES AND I MEAN I THINK TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT, OUR STATE GOVERNMENT HAS ACTED PRETTY GINGERLY WITH RESPECT TO THE CHURCHES AND BEEN CAREFUL AS LITIGATION HAS PROCEEDED AND I'LL SAY, YOU KNOW, SKIP HEITZIG MAY APPEAL TO NATURAL LAW NOW, THIS IS CLASSIC FORUM SHOPPING.

THEY WENT TO FEDERAL COURT AND THEY WERE SHUT DOWN.

AND THE REASON THAT THEY WERE SHUT DOWN IS, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A PRINCIPLE IN LAW AND ECONOMICS CALLED THE LEAST COST AVOIDER.

THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE WHERE THERE IS A REALLY INEXPENSIVE AND EASY AND CHEAP PRECAUTION THAT THESE PARISHIONERS AND THESE CHURCHES CAN TAKE TO INCREASE SAFETY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, SCIENCE AGREES, THAT IT WILL DO THAT.

SO, WE WILL NOT PREDICT HOW THESE CASES ARE GOING TO COME OUT IN COURT.

WHEN THEY CAN TAKE THE EASY PRECAUTION, THEY SHOULD AND IF THEY DON'T THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE.

SO, NOW TO APPEAL TO NATURAL LAW, YOU KNOW, I GUESS YOU HOPE TO GET A DIFFERENT ANSWER.

BUT, YES, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VERY VULNERABLE POPULATIONS AND TALKING ABOUT A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM THAT IS SO SERIOUS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK KRISTELLE STARTED OUT TALKING ABOUT MAKING THE -- ASSESSING THE DANGER AND THE RISK TO ONE SELF.

OF COURSE, THE PROBLEM WITH THIS PANDEMIC IS WE HAVE EXPONENTIAL SPREAD WITH THE VIRUS SO YOU HAVE TO ASSESS THE RISK TO MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEYOND YOURSELF.

AND WE ARE NOT GOOD AT DOING THAT AND I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT UPON THE CHURCH LEADERS TO CONSIDER THEIR PARISHIONERS AND EVERYONE THEIR PARISHIONERS HAVE CONTACT WITH.

BUT, IN CONTEXT, I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN CAREFUL.

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM HAS CONSIDERED THE FIRST AMENDMENT INVOCATION.

YOU LOOK AT FINES LEVIED AGAINST BUSINESSES, 70 GRAND LAST WEEK AT O'REILLY AUTO PARTS, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE TRYING TO ALLOW THESE CHURCHES TO PROCEED AND RECOGNIZING THE IMPORTANCE IN THE COMMUNITY AND THAT THIS PROVIDES COMMUNITY FOR SO MANY PEOPLE BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD TO DO SOMETHING.

IT IS A HUGE AFFRONT TO THE EXECUTIVE ORDER.

>> Gene: KRISTELLE, I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT MESSAGING.

WE HEARD NOISE OUT OF THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE THAT, QUOTE, ONE OF THE SPOKESPERSONS CALLED THE PASTORS, QUOTE, PRO VIRUS.

THERE IS SOMETHING GOING ON HERE, LIKE A LOGGERHEAD BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND SOME OF THESE LARGER CHURCHES.

SOMETHING HAS TO BREAK HERE SEEMS TO ME.

IS THAT HELPFUL CALLING THESE PEOPLE PRO VIRUS?

>> Kristelle: IT DOESN'T ALSO HELP, AGAIN, ADMINISTRATION IS WHAT IT IS, NO OPINION, LEADERSHIP IS GREAT.

WE STARTED TO SEE, THIS BECOMES A DISCUSSION OF THE PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICIALS ON THE STATE LEVEL THAT HAVE OFFERED SO MUCH BURNOUT THAT SOMETIMES THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN ADDRESSING PUBLIC AND OTHER REPORTERS IN THE PAST HAVE STARTED -- IT IS VERY OBVIOUS THE TENSION AND FRICTION THEY ARE FEELING ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

AND I SPECIFICALLY POINT OUT AN ARTICLE OR A STORY THAT WAS SHOWN ON KOB TV AND IT CIRCULATED IN SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS ABOUT HOW DISRESPECTFUL THE ANSWERS WERE FROM THE PIO AT THE TIME.

AS CONTROVERSIAL AS THAT IS TO BRING UP, WHEN YOU ARE USING TERMINOLOGY LIKE PRO VIRUS OR WHENEVER YOU'RE CREATING RESPONSES WITH A LOT OF RIGIDITY, IT IS RIGID IN NATURE, IT PUTS THEM IN A DIFFICULT POSITION TO SUPPORT THE EFFORTS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL TRYING TO FIND A SENSE OF KINDNESS AND HOPE OUT OF THIS ENTIRE SITUATION.

AND SO IF I WAS THE CHURCHES OR IF I WAS WORKING WITH ANOTHER ORGANIZATION THAT WAS IN A SIMILAR SITUATION, TO AVOID CONVERSATIONS LIKE PRO VIRUS, I THINK YOU WOULD BE -- MAYBE THIS SOUNDS FUNNY, BUT RESPONSIVE LANGUAGE WITH KINDNESS AND OPTIMISM AND FORWARD THINKING WOULD BE BETTER THAN NAME CALLING.

>> Gene: CAN I ASK YOU TO PICK UP ON THIS.

I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Giovanna: YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS NAME CALLING OR JUST, YEAH, JUST POOR PHRASING BUT, YOU KNOW, THE POINT IS THAT THE CHURCHES WERE IRRESPONSIBLE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MAKES THEM PRO VIRUS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT PRO VIRUS IS, LIKE, EVERYBODY WANTS THE VIRUS?

BUT IT IS DEFINITELY IRRESPONSIBLE AND IT IS NOT JUST LIKE A BUSINESS OWNER SAYING, LIKE, COME TO MY STORE AND DON'T WEAR A MASK.

THIS IS A LEADER OF MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE WORDS THAT YOU SAY AND THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT YOU DO.

YOU KNOW.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN THE POLITICAL REALM, OF COURSE, AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL WITH LEADERSHIP ON THIS PANDEMIC.

AND WE ARE SEEING, I FEEL LIKE IT IS REPLICATED AT THIS LOCAL LEVEL IN THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP HERE.

AND THE EXPLAINING AWAY, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THE PANDEMIC, THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T WEAR A MASK ARE THOSE THAT WE ASSUME HAD A MEDICAL PROBLEM.

NO, NO.

IT WAS MOSTLY PEOPLE WITHOUT MASKS.

THEY WERE YOUNG.

THEY DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THEY HAD A MEDICAL PROBLEM.

IT IS NOT TRUTHFUL.

IT IS NOT LEADERSHIP.

IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE AND HURTING PEOPLE.

IT IS HURTING PEOPLE.

I AM GLAD JUSTINE BROUGHT UP THIS CONVERSATION OF THE INDIVIDUAL VERSUS THE COLLECTIVE BECAUSE I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT IS THE COLLECTIVE BENEFIT HERE?

WHAT IS THE COLLECTIVE GOOD?

HOW DO MY INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS CONTRIBUTE TO THE COLLECTIVE GOOD?

WE HAVE TO BE THINKING AT A HIGHER LEVEL, PEOPLE.

WE CAN'T JUST KEEP ON WITH THIS, YOU KNOW, ME AND MY FAMILY, WE'RE OKAY, I AM GOING TO DO WHAT I WANT.

>> Gene: APPRECIATE THAT.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

OUR LAND IS NEXT, THEN WE ARE BACK TALKING ABOUT AN ANTIDISCRIMINATION ORDINANCE RIGHT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

PUBLIC LANDS IN NEW MEXICO HOLD DIFFERENT MEANINGS FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE INCLUDING EACH OF THE STATE'S AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES.

ON THIS MONTH'S EPISODE OF OUR LAND WE LOOK BACK TO A 2020 CONVERSATION BETWEEN CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS AND EUGENE HERRERA, FORMER GOVERNOR OF THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI.

MR. HERRERA SPOKE ABOUT THE PUEBLO'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LANDSCAPE AND OPPOSITION TO A BILL THAT SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH INTRODUCED TO MAKE BANDELIER NATIONAL MONUMENT A NATIONAL PARK AND ALSO OPEN CERTAIN LAND TO PUBLIC HUNTING.

NOW, IN 2021, SENATOR HEINRICH PLANS TO REINTRODUCE THAT BILL IN THE 117TH CONGRESS.

AND WHILE OTHER NORTHERN NEW MEXICO PUEBLOS SUPPORT THE MEASURE, LEADERS AT COCHITI STILL OPPOSE IT AND ARE DISAPPOINTED THE SENATOR PLANS TO TRY AGAIN.

TO READ MORE INCLUDING A STATEMENT FROM THE SENATOR'S OFFICE VISIT OUR LAND HOME PAGE AT NMPBS.ORG.

>> Laura: COUNCILMAN HERRERA, WELCOME TO THE STUDIO TODAY?

>> Herrera: GOOD MORNING.

>> Laura: IN ONE OF THE RECENT EPISODES OF OUR LAND WE FOCUSED ON PUBLIC LAND, LANDS THAT ARE OPEN TO EVERYONE FOR EVERYONE TO ACCESS, BUT I WOULD IMAGINE THAT FOR PUEBLO PEOPLE HERE IN NEW MEXICO, THAT IS A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT IDEA.

THESE MIGHT BE ANCESTRAL HOMELAND THAT ARE NOW NATIONAL FORESTS OR NATIONAL MONUMENTS THAT ARE CONTROLLED BY FEDERAL MANAGERS AND CAN BE CHANGED THROUGH ACTS OF CONGRESS.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD HELP US AND HELP OUR AUDIENCE UNDERSTAND WHAT LANDSCAPES AND PUBLIC LANDS MEAN FOR THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI.

>> Herrera: WELL, PUBLIC LAND, MY FIRST INCLINATION TO THE WAY IT FEELS TO THE NATIVE AMERICANS IS THAT IT IS A LIVE.

IT IS OUR MOTHER.

PROVIDED FOR US SINCE TIME MILLENNIUM AND IT WILL BE THERE PROVIDING FOR US IF WE ALLOW IT TO.

AND RIGHT NOW WE CAN SEE SOME OF THE CALAMITIES INVOLVED AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN STRAIGHTEN SOME OF THEM OUT AND GIVE HER A BETTER FIGHTING CHANCE TO SURVIVE AND DO HER JOB AND IN TURN, LET US DO OUR JOB IN STEWARDSHIP AND PROTECTING HER AND ENCOURAGING HER TO A MORE LIVELIHOOD.

>> RECENTLY SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH INTRODUCED A BILL THAT WOULD CHANGE BANDELIER NATIONAL MONUMENT INTO BANDELIER NATIONAL PARK.

MANY OF THE PUEBLOS IN THE STATE HAVE SAID THAT THEY SUPPORT THIS BILL BUT THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI DOES NOT.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOUR CONCERNS ARE WITH THIS BILL.

>> WELL, OUR PRIMARY CONCERN IS THAT IT IS THE TRADITIONAL AND ABORIGINAL HOME OF THE PUEBLO DE COCHITI AND MAYBE PRIMARILY TO THE CARRIAGE TRIBES HERE.

AND IT IS LOCATED ON OUR MIGRATION ROUTES.

IT IS PROBABLY ABOUT THE LAST PLACE THAT WE SAT ALL AS ONE PEOPLE BEFORE MOVING TO OUR PERMANENT LOCATION.

SO, IT HAS A LOT OF SIGNIFICANCE THERE.

IT HAS BEEN PROVIDED WITH A LOT OF SPIRITUAL AND SACRED SITES TO HELP MAINTAIN OUR CULTURAL WAY OF LIFE.

>> Laura: AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE BILL WOULD OPEN UP ABOUT 4300 ACRES TO HUNTING THAT CURRENTLY ARE WITHIN THE MONUMENT.

WHAT ARE YOUR WORRIES WITH THAT?

>> Herrera: WELL, OBVIOUSLY IT IS INFLUX OF PEOPLE AND CROWDS.

ANY TIME YOU GET SOMETHING REDESIGNATED FROM A NATIONAL MONUMENT TO NATIONAL PARK WE ARE LOOKING AT MAYBE MANY HUNDREDS FOLD OF INCREASING CROWD.

SO THERE HAS BEEN NUMEROUS FIRES IN THE LOCATION.

SO THE ENVIRONMENT IS FRAGILE AND INFANCY STAGE THAT IS COMING BACK TO LIFE RIGHT NOW, SO, IT HAS TO BE PROPERLY TAKEN CARE OF.

>> Laura: I APOLOGIZE, IF THIS IS TOO PERSONAL BUT CAN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT LANDSCAPE OR THE RELATIONSHIP THAT OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI HAVE WITH THAT LANDSCAPE EITHER IN TERMS OF THE WILDLIFE THAT IS THERE OR THE SPACES, THE LANDSCAPE, LIKE WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT IT BE PROTECTED?

>> A LOT OF HOLY PEOPLE STILL GO INTO THESE AREAS.

WE GO IN THERE FOR PILGRIMAGE.

WE HAVE NUMEROUS, LIKE I SAID, SACRED SITES IN THERE.

WE HAVE VILLAGES IN THERE.

THE LAST MESA WHERE WE MADE OUR LAST STAND AGAINST DEVARGAS IS IN THE IMMEDIATE LOCATION.

SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF VERY SIGNIFICANT, YOU KNOW, SIGNIFICANCE TO US AS A PUEBLO PEOPLE AND OUR STRUGGLES IN OUR LIVES AND IT HAS SO MUCH MEANING TO US THAT IT HELPS US MAINTAIN OUR WAY OF LIFE.

THESE DAYS, AS YOU CAN SEE SINCE THE FIRST POINT OF CONTACT FIVE OR SIX HUNDRED YEARS AGO AND WHERE THE AMERICAN INDIAN IS NOW TODAY AND WHAT DO YOU PICTURE IT TO BE IN ANOTHER 500 YEARS?

ARE THERE GOING TO BE THESE SITES AVAILABLE FOR OUR CHILDREN TO HELP MAINTAIN THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND TO KEEP THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THESE PLACES ARE THERE AS AN AIDE IN HELPING US PROTECT OURSELVES, HELPING US IDENTIFY OURSELVES.

IF WE LOSE THAT, FOR INSTANCE, GOING INTO THE NATIONAL PARK, IS GOING TO INHIBIT US FROM GOING IN THERE AS FREELY AND AS PRIVATELY AS WE NORMALLY WOULD LIKE TO.

SO, THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG PROBLEM FOR US.

BUT, IT IS ALSO AN IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES FOR OUR YOUNGER PEOPLE AS YOU CAN SEE, LIKE, I SAID IN THE PAST 500 YEARS, WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF LOSING OUR LANGUAGE RIGHT NOW AND IF WE LOSE MORE, WHERE ARE WE GOING TO BE HERE IN ANOTHER 500 YEARS?

>>Laura: THAT LANDSCAPE HAS, LIKE YOU MENTIONED, BY IMPACTED BY FIRES INCLUDING SOME BIG SEVERE FIRES.

HOW HAS THAT AFFECTED THE WILDLIFE THERE AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WILDLIFE AND YOUR RELIANCE ON WILDLIFE?

>> Herrera: WELL, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER WE NORMALLY GO UP THERE FOR CEREMONIALS AND HOLY PEOPLE GO THERE FOR HERBS TO HELP TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE AND THE WHOLE WORLD AND, IN ESSENCE, YOU KNOW, WE PRAY FOR ALL PEOPLE.

WE PRAY FOR ENEMIES, WE PRAY FOR YOU, WE PRAY FOR PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD.

WE HELP OUR MOTHER TO STAY ALIVE AND THAT IS OUR PRIMARY CONCERN, SO, WE ARE TRYING OUR BEST AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN GET THIS MESSAGE ACROSS TO OTHER PEOPLE.

IT IS ALIVE AND IT IS VIBRANT.

IT IS BREATHING.

>>Laura: THE BILL AS INTRODUCED WOULD ALSO INCLUDE A TRIBAL COMMISSION.

IS THAT A STEP FORWARD?

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY SUPPOSED TO CONSULT WITH TRIBES ON ISSUES LIKE THESE.

SO, YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE TRIBAL COMMISSION THAT WOULD BE A PART OF THIS BILL.

>> I DON'T KNOW THE MODALITY OF IT OR HOW MUCH POWER IT WOULD HAVE.

THE FINAL OKAY FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS THAT PUEBLO COMMISSION COULD SUGGEST STILL CAN BE OVERRIDDEN BY THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR.

SO, IF THEY COULD GIVE IT MORE MEAT, MAYBE.

I DON'T KNOW.

>>Laura: DO YOU FEEL LIKE -- I KNOW YOU'RE SPEAKING JUST FOR THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI BUT DO YOU FEEL LIKE WHEN THERE ARE THESE SORT OF BIG ISSUES THAT HAPPEN, WHETHER IT IS A BILL RELATED TO A NATIONAL MONUMENT AND LANDSCAPES OR OTHER ISSUES THAT AFFECT TRIBES, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE A VOICE AND A SAY AND A SEAT AT THE TABLE?

HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> Herrera: SPEAKING OF SEAT AT THE TABLE, I THINK THAT IS WHAT MAY HAVE BROUGHT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS ABOUT HERE FOR COCHITI IS THERE WAS REAL NO MAJOR PRIOR CONSULTATION OR ANYBODY COMING TO THE VILLAGE SAYING, HEY, WE ARE GOING TO PROPOSE THIS.

SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH CAME TO THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI IN 2017 WHEN I WAS SERVING MY FIRST TERM AS GOVERNOR AND HE MADE NO MENTION OF IT TO US.

AND THE LEADERSHIP IN 2018 WAS GIVEN THE BURDEN OF HAVING TO ADDRESS IT AT THAT TIME, SEND IN PROTEST LETTERS AT THAT TIME AND THEN I BECAME GOVERNOR AGAIN IN 2019.

I WAS APPOINTED.

SO WE STARTED PURSUING IT AGAIN.

HERE WE ARE AGAIN, NOW, TALKING ABOUT IT.

>>Laura: RIGHT, COCHITI TRIBAL OFFICIALS RECENTLY WENT TO WASHINGTON D.C. TO TALK WITH FOLKS ABOUT THE BILL.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN?

ARE THERE CHANGES TO THE BILL OR DO YOU JUST HOPE THAT IT DOESN'T PASS?

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?

>> HERRERA: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT NOT PASS.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT DERAILED, IF WE COULD.

I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE READDRESSED, MAYBE THROUGH THE ALL PUEBLO COUNCIL OF GOVERNORS.

AND DO IT THE PROPER WAY.

YOU KNOW.

THEY NEED TO LISTEN TO OUR VOICE.

I KNOW THEY ARE CLAIMING A MAJORITY OF THE PUEBLOS ARE IN FAVOR OF IT BUT THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE NOT.

PRIMARILY THE 10 SOUTHERN GOVERNORS COUNCIL THAT WE OPPOSED AND SENT IN LETTERS OF SUPPORT TO COCHITI PUEBLO.

SO, WE STAND THERE NOW.

THAT IS WHERE WE ARE AT.

>>Laura: ANY POSITIVES TO THE BILL OR ANYTHING OF HOW IT COULD BE CHANGED THAT MIGHT MAKE THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE BILL?

>> Herrera: I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY ROOM FOR COMPROMISE.

LIKE I SAID, THERE IS REVERENCE ON THE PUEBLO AND OTHER TRIBES FOR THAT AREA.

WE HAVE SO MANY CLOSE SPIRITUAL CONNECTIONS TO IT, LIKE I SAID, IT IS PROBABLY OUR LAST GATHERING.

>>Laura: I WAS LOOKING AT A MAP AND THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI IS CLOSEST TO THIS AREA; IS THAT RIGHT THAN SOME OF THE OTHER PUEBLOS?

>> Herrera: RIGHT, IT IS A STONE'S THROW, MAYBE ABOUT A MILE TO THE SOUTHERN BOUNDARY AND IT BORDERS UP AGAINST OUR RESERVATION TO THE NEWLY PURCHASED CANADA DE COCHITI WHICH WE PURCHASED.

SO WE HAVE THAT GOING ON AND THEY ARE TRESPASSING AND OTHER ISSUES.

WE HAVE TWO MONUMENTS ADJACENT TO THE RESERVATION.

WE HAVE KASHA-KATUWE ON THE WEST AND WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH CROWDING THERE.

AND WE CAN IMAGINE WHAT WE CAN SEE IF BANDELIER WERE TO TURN TO A NATIONAL PARK.

>> Laura: MY LAST QUESTION FOR YOU IS WHAT DO YOU WISH THAT PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO BETTER UNDERSTOOD ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP THAT THE PUEBLO OF COCHITI HAS WITH THESE LANDSCAPES?

>> Herrera: THAT IT IS THERE TO PROVIDE A HEALTHY WAY OF LIFE FOR EVERYBODY IN THIS WORLD AND THAT WE GO THERE TO HELP PRAY FOR ALL PEOPLE AND WE DON'T WANT THAT BROKEN.

IF THAT IS BROKEN, THEN WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FEND FOR OURSELVES.

AND IT IS GOING TO BE CHAOTIC AT THAT TIME.

RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THE SOURCES THERE THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO KEEP INTACT SINCE A MILLENNIUM.

IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO US BY THE CREATOR TO HELP US MAINTAIN AND KEEP THE WORLD IN HARMONY WITH PEACE AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT PURSUED ALONG THEM LINES.

>>Laura: COUNCILMAN HERRERA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

>> Herrera: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE COCHITI PUEBLO'S PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU.

>> Gene: ALBUQUERQUE HAS BECOME THE LATEST CITY TO PASS THE, QUOTE, CROWN ACT WHICH STANDS FOR CREATING A RESPECTFUL AND OPEN WORLD FOR NATIONAL CARE.

THAT IS THE CROWN BIT.

NOW THE ORDINANCE WHICH CITIES, A LOT OF STATES AND U.S. HOUSE HAVE PASSED, PROHIBITS DISCRIMINATION BASED ON ETHNIC HAIR STYLES OR HEAD COVERINGS LIKE BURQAS.

GIOVANNA, COUNCILOR SENA PUSHED THIS MEASURE.

IT HAS BEEN OUT THERE IN THE COMMUNITY PARTICULARLY FOR BLACK WOMEN HERE IN NEW MEXICO FOR A LONG TIME.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

>> Giovanna: IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THERE HAVE BEEN STORIES BOTH LOCALLY AND NATIONALLY ABOUT DIFFERENT CHILDREN AND ADULTS BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN SCHOOL AND AT WORK FOR THE WAY THEIR HAIR LOOKS.

LITTLE GIRLS IN CLASSROOMS BEING TOLD THEIR HAIR IS DISTRACTING.

YOUR HAIR IS DISTRACTING.

SO FOR ALL OF THOSE REASONS, AND IT IS BASICALLY DISCRIMINATION TO SAY THOSE THINGS TO KIDS OR ADULTS IN ANY SITUATION.

SO, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT REALLY SHEDS LIGHT ON THIS ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, THAT I THINK, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS, THEY ARE NOT AWARE THAT IT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING TO OTHER PEOPLE.

SO, I THINK FIRST AND FOREMOST IT IS RAISING THE ISSUE.

IT IS EDUCATING, WHICH IS WHAT A LOT OF TIMES THESE BILLS DO, YOU KNOW, THEY REALLY ARE EDUCATION TOOLS, START THE CONVERSATION.

WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT HERE ON THIS SHOW WITHOUT THIS.

SO, YEAH, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT.

>> Gene: KRISTELLE, INTERESTINGLY, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF US ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE SUBTLE FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION AND IT IS EASY TO EXPLAIN SKIN COLOR, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO HAIR, A LOT OF FOLKS JUST DON'T SEE IT.

HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE OF YOUR HAIR?

IT IS HARD TO GET THAT ACROSS TO FOLKS, ISN'T IT?

>> Kristelle: ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE LEGISLATION I JUST CAUGHT WITHIN THE LAST 30 SECONDS, ITS A CULTURAL HEADDRESS.

WHEN YOU SAID COUNCILOR SENA HAD SPONSORED IT, THE LIGHT BULB -- I ALWAYS SAID I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO COME OUT OF MY MOUTH WHEN THE SHOW STARTS TO AIR BUT INSTANTLY THE LIGHT BULB CAME ON AND I SAID, OH, WAIT, COUNCILOR SENA'S PLATFORM IS ALWAYS ADVOCATING FOR COMMUNITY OF COLOR INCLUDING THE ASIAN COMMUNITY AS BEING AN ASIAN COUNCILOR.

SO IT MADE WE REALIZE OH, CULTURAL HEADDRESS IS BECAUSE OF THE SOUTHEASTERN WOMEN AND THE HIJAB AND HOW IT IS EITHER A HIJAB OR THE HEADDRESS THEY HAVE TO USE IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN A COMMUNITY OR AN ECONOMY.

SO, NOT ONLY IS SHE ADVOCATING FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR THAT ARE BLACK OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE OF ISSUES WITH PEOPLE HAVING BEEN FORCED TO CUT THEIR CORNROWS OR DREADS OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, BUT IT IS ALSO PROTECTING AND INVITING COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE TO WEAR CULTURAL HEADDRESSES AS A PART OF THE CULTURE AND RELIGION INVITING THEM TO MAKING SURE ALBUQUERQUE IS A MORE ACCEPTING CITY AND IT SHOWS OUTWARDLY, I WOULD IMAGINE, FOR COUNCILOR SENA, SHOWS OUTWARDLY THAT OUR COMMUNITY IS NOT GOING TO BE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST A CULTURE NO MATTER WHAT IS ON YOUR HEAD OR NOT.

>> Gene: JUSTINE THE BLACK -- A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN WERE INVOLVED WITH THIS, BCOC THE BIG GROUP AROUND HERE, THE BLACK CENTRAL ORGANIZING COMMITTEE.

A HUGE NUMBER OF WOMEN WERE AFTER THIS, BUT THERE IS GOING TO BE ACTIVITY IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE COMING UP ON THIS.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE WHEN IT COMES TO STATE WIDE VERSUS CITY WIDE?

>> Justine: WELL, AND NATION WIDE.

ONE ENTITY YOU DIDN'T NAME WHICH MAKES ME WONDER AND MAKES ME SOMEWHAT SUSPICIOUS IS DOVE'S INVOLVEMENT IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

ANY TIME YOU HAVE A CORPORATION WHO SELLS PRODUCTS AND STANDS TO GAIN FROM THE PASSAGE OF LEGISLATION, YOU KNOW, YOU KIND OF WONDER WHERE THIS ALL CAME FROM.

DOVE IS SELLING HAIR PRODUCTS TO THE POPULATIONS, THE INTEREST GROUPS, WHO WANT TO SEE THIS PASSED.

LET ME FIRST SAY, THOUGH, THAT THERE IS NO DISPUTE WE HAVE REALLY IMPORTANT PROTECTIONS TO PRESERVE ALONG RACE AND RELIGIOUS LINES.

SO, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THIS IS AN EFFORT, ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE LAWS LIKE TITLE VII AND OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS IN NEW MEXICO, HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND IN THE CITY, OUR HUMAN RIGHTS ORDINANCE, THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, THAT THIS IS LIKE A BIG HOLE WHERE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE UNSATISFIED, DISSATISFIED BECAUSE COURTS ARE NOT FINDING THAT DISCRIMINATION BASED UPON SOMEBODY'S HAIR, WHERE PEOPLE FEEL THIS IS SO CLOSELY TIED TO RACE AND SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, IT ISN'T HAPPENING.

MY QUESTION IS WILL IT WORK.

THERE A LOT OF SOCIETAL ILLS YOU CAN'T HEAL OR FIX.

WHEN I READ THIS ORDINANCE AND WHEN I LOOK AT THE PROPOSED STATE LAW, AND I WON'T TAKE TOO LONG, I CAN TELL, YOU CREATE ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO WORK ON A MOVIE SET AND THEY HAVE THE WRONG KIND OF HAIR FOR THE PART, THEY ARE GOING TO BE AN EXTRA IN NEW MEXICO AND THEY DON'T GET CHOSEN, DOES THAT GO TO A LAWSUIT?

IF A FIREFIGHTER WANTS TO HAVE DREADLOCKS AND CAN'T WEAR THE APPROPRIATE MASK AND EQUIPMENT, DOES THAT GIVE RISE TO A LAWSUIT?

I SEE NO EXCEPTIONS IN EITHER BILL OR ORDINANCE THAT HAS BEEN PASSED FOR THOSE KIND OF ISSUES.

THAT IS A PROBLEM FOR EMPLOYERS.

WE MAY WANT TO EDUCATE PEOPLE AND BRING LIGHT TO AN ISSUE BUT THIS IS A HUGE BURDEN AND IT IS GOING TO BE JOB KILLING IF IT IS NOT DRAFTED NARROWLY ENOUGH.

I WOULD WORRY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE STATE-WIDE LEGISLATION GOING TOO FAR.

>> Gene: JUSTINE, THIS IS ONE OF THOSE DEALS WHERE YOU PUT THE LAW ON THE GROUND AND SORT OF SEE WHAT HAPPENS AND SHAPE IT AS IT GOES DOWN THE ROAD?

>> Justine: THAT IS DANGEROUS, AND THAT IS WHY WE LIKE THINGS TO PROCEED INCREMENTALLY IN THE COURT.

THAT IS WHY IT DEVELOPS SLOWLY, BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE ALL KINDS OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

>> Gene: IT'S A WRAP HERE GUYS, UNFORTUNATELY.

THANK YOU TO ALL THE PANELISTS FOR WEIGHING IN THIS WEEK.

WE ARE SHORT ON TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

I SUPPOSE ONE COULD VIEW WHAT HAPPENED AT THE U.S. CAPITOL EARLIER THIS WEEK AS INEVITABLE, THE LOGICAL AND TRAGIC END POINT OF A FUSED LIT LONG AGO.

IT IS EMBARRASSING, INFURIATING AND ULTIMATELY IT LEFT A FEELING AS IF WE HIT BOTTOM OF SOME SORT.

MAYBE THAT IS THE BETTER END OF THIS SORDID EVENT.

EVERY SITUATION HAS TO HAVE A LOW POINT IN THEIR STORY BEFORE THINGS START TO IMPROVE AND WE HAVE TWO WEEKS BEFORE WE HAVE OUR TRADITIONAL CHANGE OF POWER IN THE PRESIDENCY, TWO WEEKS TO SETTLE ANY LAST GRIEVANCES REGARDING THE VOTE TALLY AND ANYTHING ELSE HOLDING US BACK FROM MOVING FORWARD AS A NATION.

NOW, LAST IN THE NEWS IS WE HAD OUR OWN PROTEST AT THE ROUNDHOUSE AT THE SAME TIME THE INCURSION AT THE CAPITOL BUILDING WAS HAPPENING.

THEY FOUND A WAY TO MAKE THEIR POINT AND STAY OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING.

NOT THAT HARD.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK IN FOCUS.