>> Eric: ON TUESDAY, GOVERNOR TIM WALZ WADED INTO THE DECADE-LONG FIGHT OVER THE PROPOSED TWIN METALS COPPER-NICKEL MINE NEAR THE BOUNDARY WATERS WITH AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT HALTS COPPER-NICKEL MINING IN THE FEDERAL WILDERNESS AREA'S WATERSHED.

THE MOVE IMMEDIATELY DREW STRONG REACTIONS FROM POLITICIANS AND STAKEHOLDERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.

JULIE LUCAS IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF MINING MINNESOTA, AN INDUSTRY GROUP THAT ADVOCATES FOR SAFE MINING.

JOINING LUCAS IN OPPOSITION TO THE EXECUTIVE ORDER, REPUBLICAN STATE REPRESENTATIVE CAL WARWAS.

ALISON FLINT IS ACTING V.P.

OF FEDERAL POLICY AT THE WILDERNESS SOCIETY, WHO WORKS WITH THE CAMPAIGN TO SAVE THE BOUNDARY WATERS.

JOINING FLINT IN SUPPORTING THE GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDER, DFL STATE REPRESENTATIVE ALEX FALCONER.

ALSO WITH US BY ZOOM.

GOT US THERE?

YES, I SEE YOU.

>> YEP.

>> Eric: WELCOME, ONE AND ALL.

REPRESENTATIVE, WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE TIMING OF THIS?

I MEAN, HE'S GONE IN FOUR MONTHS.

>> YEAH, I WAS REALLY SURPRISED BY THE TIMING OF THIS AND I MEAN, LET'S BE CLEAR, NO MATTER WHO'S COMING INTO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WHETHER IT BE SPEAKER LISA DEMUTH OR SENATOR KLOBUCHAR THERE'S NO WAY ANYONE'S GOING TO EXTEND THIS, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY BELIEVES THAT.

>> Cathy: I'M WONDERING, REPRESENTATIVE FALCONER, DO YOU THINK THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM ON THE STATE LEVEL, EXECUTIVE ORDER LIKE THIS?

>> WELL, SINCE WE'RE A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE AND WE CAN'T ADDRESS ANYTHING VIA LEGISLATION AFTER MAY, WHATEVER, WHEN WE GAVEL OUT THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS SEATED TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND HE SAW THIS MOMENT THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING EVERYTHING IT CAN TO RAMROD THIS MINE THROUGH AGAINST THE VAST MAJORITY OF MINNESOTANS, AND THIS IS THE ACTION THAT HE'S ABLE TO TAKE GIVEN THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HE HAS N OFFICE.

>> Cathy: JULIE, GOVERNOR CIRCUMVENTING THE MINNESOTA LEGISLATURE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT.

>> AND IT'S CIRCUMVENTING MINNESOTA POLICY FOR DEVELOPING OUR MINERALS AND IT'S REALLY HARD FOR ME AS A SCIENTIST TO SEE THE TRUMP-WALZ ASPECT BEING THE IMPORTANT DISCUSSION, VERSUS WHAT IS THE GEOLOGY, WHAT IS THE GEOCHEMISTRY, WHAT IS THE WATER.

SO THAT'S WHERE MY STRUGGLE AND MY MEMBERS' STRUGGLE IS, WHY IS THIS A POLITICAL ISSUE WHEN IT SHOULD BE A SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING QUESTION.

>> Cathy: IT'S A LITTLE BIT BOTH, THOUGH, RIGHT, ALLISON?

>> YEAH, I WAS GOING TO SAY JUST THAT.

I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE A CONSERVATIVE ACTION, RIGHT, THAT IS IN RESPONSE TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SEVERAL MONTHS AGO STRIPPING PROTECTIONS THAT WERE BASED ON SIGNIFICANT SCIENTIFIC STUDY, PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT, CONSULTATION WITH TRIBAL NATIONS AND REALLY RECOGNIZES THAT THE RULES IN MINNESOTA ARE IN FLUX, THE MINNESOTA D.N.R.

HAS MADE A DETERMINATION THAT THE RULES ARE INADEQUATE RIGHT NOW TO PROTECT THE WATERSHED OF THE BOUNDARY WATERS AND IS GOING THROUGH A PROCESS TO UPDATE THOSE.

>> Cathy: WOULD YOU LIKE TO MAKE A COMMENT ON THAT, JULIE?

>> DO YOU WANT TO EXPOUND ON THAT, HOUGH?

THEY FOUND THEY NEED NOISE AND LIGHT RULES, THEY FOUND IT WAS ADEQUATE TO PROTECT WATER AND AIR.

IT ONLY CALLED OUT AIR AND LIGHT.

THE MIR A CASE SOUNDED LIKE THE WATER WOULD BE PROTECTED.

THERE'S A DIVIDE IN THIS -- DECISION.

>> Eric: THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE WHERE THERE'S REALLY COMPROMISE, IS THERE?

I MEAN, YOU'RE EITHER FOR MINING OR AGAINST IT, AND I WONDER HOW YOU -- AT THE LEGISLATURE, FOR INSTANCE.

>> I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE EVERYONE SUPPORTS MINING WHETHER THEY KNOW IT OR NOT, BECAUSE IF WE DON'T MINE NEAR BWCA OR NORTHEASTERN MINNESOTA WE CONTINUE TO USE THESE MINERALS EVERY DAY, USING THEM ON THIS SET, I USED THEM IN MY CAR TO GET HERE.

THE NEED FOR THESE MINERALS DOES NOT GO AWAY, JUST WHERE WE SOURCE THEM.

>> Eric: REPRESENTATIVE FALCONER, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WHAT CAN THE LEGISLATURE DO BESIDES EITHER WILL, OR?

>> THERE ARE OTHER PROJECTS IN MINNESOTA UNDER REVIEW.

NORTHMET SUBMITTED THEIR PLANS, THOSE ARE JUST THE COPPER NICKEL AND THERE'S BEEN IRON MINING IN MINNESOTA FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY.

THERE'S A LOT OF MINING POTENTIAL.

THERE'S JUST THE ONE SPOT NEAR THE BOUNDARY WATERS WHERE, YOU KNOW, I DISAGREE WITH HE MIR A LAWSUIT'S FINDING OF ADEQUATE WATER PROTECTION RULES, I MEAN, MINNESOTA ALLOWS POLLUTION UP TO A CERTAIN LIMIT BUT THE BOUNDARY WATERS BY STATUTE, STATE AND FEDERAL, HAS A ZERO DEGRADATION LIMIT AND WATER POLLUTION DOESN'T CARE ABOUT A LINE ON A MAP.

IT WILL FLOW INTO THE RIVER WATER SYSTEM, LAKES A SERIES OF LAKES AND RIVERS THAT WILL FLOW THROUGH THE HEART OF THE WILDERNESS.

SO IT'S JUST -- IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT A PROJECT THAT IS READY FOR MINNESOTA.

IT'S NOT -- EVERY MINE OF THIS SORT HAS POLLUTED, 100% TRACK RECORD, WATER QUALITY.

>> Eric: JULIE, YOU CALLED THIS A POLITICAL DECISION, KIND OF PRESENTED AS SOMETHING ELSE?

>> YEP.

, CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT?

>> THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECT OF IT HASN'T BEEN STUDIED.

WHEN TWIN METALS INITIALLY PUT FORWARD THEIR 2019MPO, MINE PLAN OF OPERATIONS THEY HAD CREATED AN EXTENSIVE BASELINE PACKAGE OF SURFACE WATER, GROUND WATER, THE DARK SKIES AND THE NOISE AND THE WHOLE BIG PACKAGE AND IT NEVER MADE IT THROUGH WHAT'S CALLED THE SCOPING EAW.

SO THEIR DATA HAS NEVER BEEN GONE THROUGH.

THEIR PLAN HAS NEVER BEEN GONE THROUGH.

AND SO WHEN FOLKS ASSUME THERE WILL BE HARM DONE, YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION WITHOUT ACTUALLY LOOKING AT WHAT THE DATA IS TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THE WATER IS, HOW IS IT MOVING, WHAT'S THE GEOCHEMISTRY, THE STATE DOES MATERIAL CHARACTERIZATION WHICH EXAMINES HOW THIS ROCK ACTS WHEN EXPOSED TO AIR AND WATER, AND NONE OF THAT WORK WAS DONE.

SO FOR ME WHEN I LOOK AT IT IS HOW CAN YOU ASSUME HARM IF YOU HAVEN'T ACTUALLY LOOKED AT WHAT IS PHYSICALLY THERE AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MINES THAT OPERATE WELL AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE EAGLE MINE, RAINY RELIGIONER GOLD UP IN CANADA, AND SO ASSUMING HARM WITHOUT LOOKING AT THINGS IS LIKE ASSUMING UILT WITHOUT A CHANCE TO PROVE INNOCENCE.

>> Cathy: ALISON?

>> YEAH, I DISAGREE ITH THAT CHARACTERIZATION.

ONCE YOU GET TO THE MINE PLAN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU DO THE MINE, NOT THE BIGGER PICTURE OF WHAT TYPE OF ACTIVITY, DO WE HAVE REGULATIONS WHAT, DOES THE LAW SAY AND THAT HAS BEEN UNDER CAREFUL EXAMINATION FOR 12 YEARS NOW BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENT.

AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN WE'VE SEEN THE ANSWER COME OUT BASED ON SCIENCE, BASED ON STUDYING, BASED ON WATER MODELING THAT THIS TYPE OF INDUSTRY, SULFIDE ORE MINING IN PARTICULAR DOES NOT BELONG IN THE HEADWATERS OF THE WATERSHED.

I WANT TO REMEMBER ABOUT THE LEGACY OF WHAT WE HAND TO OUR KIDS.

BOUNDARY WATERS IS PART OF WHAT MAKES MINNESOTA, MINNESOTA, RIGHT?

GENERATIONS HAVE HAD SUCH A PROFOUND IMPACT FROM VISITING THIS PLACE AND WE SIMPLY CAN'T RISK WHAT REPRESENTATIVE FALCONER WAS SAYING WILL HAPPEN.

WE WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER TO OUR KIDS AND GRANDKIDS.

>> I WOULD LOVE TO RESPOND TO THAT.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT WE CAN'T HAVE MINING AND CLEAN WATER IS A FALSE CHOICE.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED THE 12 YEARS TIME SPAN BECAUSE LIKE FOR INSTANCE IN NEAR MARQUETTE, MICHIGAN THE EAGLE MINE HAS BEEN OPERATING FOR 12 YEARS, THAT IS THE ONLY OPERATING NICKEL MINE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

WE RECENTLY TOURED THERE, NOT JULIE AND I BUT MYSELF AND OTHER COLLEAGUES FROM THE LEGISLATURE AND MANY OTHERS, WE'RE ACTUALLY PLANNING TO GO BACK THIS FALL.

AND THEY'VE BEEN OPERATING FOR 12 YEARS AND THEY ARE ONLY 7 MILES FROM LAKE SUPERIOR WHICH IS ALSO VERY PRECIOUS BODY OF WATER.

AND THEY'RE PROVING THAT OUT RIGHT NOW AND IT'S A VERY CLEAN OPERATION AND THEY'RE HOLDING UP TO THE STANDARDS.

>> CAN I COMMENT ON THE STANDARDS?

>> Cathy: SURE.

>> SO, YEAH, THE STATE F MICHIGAN DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE STATE WATER QUALITY STANDARDS REGARDS TO MINING, THEY RELY ON EPA REGULATION.

TO SAY THAT EAGLE IS DOING IT RIGHT, SURE, THEY'RE NOT VIOLATING STATE STATUTE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.

THEIR TAILINGS PROCESSING FACILITY FOR EXAMPLE DOES NOT HAVE SULFATE LIMITS AS PART OF ITS PERMIT TO OPERATE.

YET THE WATER DISCHARGE FROM THAT SITE IS AT 20 -- INCREASES FROM 3.5 TO 27.6, THAT MIGHT BE OFF BY A POINT OR SOMETHING THERE, DOWNSTREAM FROM THE THAT SITE.

AND MINNESOTA'S REGULATIONS ARE, FOR DRINKING WATER ARE 10 MILLIGRAMS PER LITER SO EAGLE IS THREE TIMES MORE.

SO YOU GOT TO WONDER IF DOING IT RIGHT, WHICH I HEAR A LOT, EAGLE DOES IS RIGHT, IS RESULTING IN WATER DEGRADATION THREE TIMES THE LIMIT OF MINNESOTA'S SULFATE WATER STANDARD, I GOT TO ASK WHAT RIGHT IS.

>> Eric: IS THIS GOING TO DELAY FURTHER A FINAL DECISION ON THIS?

OR IS THERE SUCH THING AS A FINAL DECISION?

>> THE ORE HAS BEEN THERE FOR 1.1 BILLION YEARS.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO GO AWAY AS WE CONTINUE TO BUILD OUT SOCIETY AND OTHER COUNTRIES CONTINUE TO BUILD OUT KNOWING THAT RESOURCE IS THERE PROBABLY MEANS WE WILL CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I UST, FOR YOUR AUDIENCE I JUST WANT TO MAKE CLEAR LIKE WE ALL AGREE ON THE VALUE OF THIS WATER AND I THINK WE ALL AGREE ON THAT MINING BUILDS, AND POWERS THINGS AND SO, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THERE'S THIS, PEOPLE SEE THIS AS A CONFLICT AND IT'S REALLY JUST ALL OF US HAVING TO WRESTLE WITH WHERE DO WE GET STUFF FROM AND HOW IS IT MINED.

BUT I WANT TO, THAT SHARED VALUE I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE AMONGST THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SITTING HERE TODAY.

>> Cathy: ARE THERE SHARED VALUES?

>> WELL, SURE.

I THINK WE ALL AGREE THAT WE CARE ABOUT CLEAN WATER, RIGHT?

WE ALL AGREE THAT WE CARE ABOUT THE BOUNDARY WATERS.

BUT I THINK WE'VE SEEN MINNESOTANS TIME AND AGAIN, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF THEM OVER THE LAST 12 YEARS, ACROSS 450 DAYS OF PUBLIC COMMENTS, UNIFORMLY, SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY SAY THIS ACTIVITY DOESN'T BELONG HERE.

JUST BECAUSE THE MINERALS ARE IN THE GROUND DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO MINE THEM, RIGHT?

YES, WE NEED THOSE MINERALS, WE CAN ALSO AGREE ON THAT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN WE NEED TO MINE THEM EVERYWHERE AND ESPECIALLY WHEN THE FREEDOM OF MY KIDS AND MY GRANDKIDS TO FISH IN THOSE LAKES, TO EAT FISH WITHOUT BEING CONCERNED ABOUT POLLUTION, FOR THE TRIBAL NATIONS TO CONTINUE TO EXERCISE THEIR TREATY RIGHTS, TO GATHER WILD RICE, ARE AT STAKE.

IT'S JUST NOT A TRADEOFF WE SHOULD MAKE.

>> Eric: HOW ABOUT THE ECONOMIC IMPACT?

>> THE ECONOMIC IMPACT IS HUGE.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SCHOOL TRUST LANDS THAT WE MINE RIGHT NOW, I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE KNOW, THAT THE SCHOOL TRUST LANDS, EVERY STUDENT IN MINNESOTA IS SUPPORTED, LIKE ABOUT $65 PER HEAD, PER CAPTA IN MINNESOTA, ALL PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS AND CHARTER SCHOOL STUDENTS, RIGHT, AND ABOUT 90%, ROUGHLY 90% OF THE MONEY IN THE SCHOOL TRUST COMES FROM MINING G AND ABOUT 90% OF THAT COMES FROM THE MINE THAT I WORK AT, I'M A CAREER MINER AT U.S.

STEEL.

SO THE IMPACT OF A TWIN METALS-TYPE OPERATION WOULD BE MANY MANY TIMES THAT.

>> Cathy: REPRESENTATIVE FALCONER WITH ABOUT 20 SECONDS LEFT, WILL THIS BE A BIG ISSUE IN THE FALL CAMPAIGN?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT ALREADY IS.

ALSO JUST CLARIFICATION ON THE SCHOOL TRUST TOO.

THE MAJORITY OF THE TWIN METALS SITE IS FEDERAL LANDS THAT WOULDN'T PAY INTO THE STATE COFFERS.

>> Cathy: OKAY, SO -- >> YEAH, THIS WILL BE AN ISSUE IN THE CAMPAIGN, I'M SURE IT WILL BE A BIG ISSUE THAT WILL GO INTO THE NEXT LEGISLATIVE SESSION AS WELL.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU, ONE AND ALL.

>> Eric: GOOD DISCUSSION.

>> TAKE CARE, ALEX.

>> Cathy: CLEARLY WE'VE RUN LONG HERE SO THE INDEX FILE SECTION ILL WAIT FOR ANOTHER WEEK.

QUICK NOTE BEFORE WE GO TONIGHT.

GREAT MINNESOTA GET-TOGETHER STARTS NEXT THURSDAY AT THE STATE FAIR.

THAT MEANS ONE WEEK FROM TODAY WE CONTINUE OUR STATE FAIR SHOW TRADITION.

FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS TWIN CITIES PBS AND MPR NEWS HAVE TEAMED UP TO CREATE A SPECIAL EDITION OF "ALMANAC," WE EVEN BRING THE COUCH OUT THERE!

CIRCLE THE DATE ON YOUR CALENDAR.

FRIDAY, AUGUST 28TH, 11:00 IN THE MORNING, ERIC AND I WILL BE AT THE MPR BOOTH, JUDSON AND NELSON, KIDDY CORNER FROM THE DAIRY BUILDING.

WE'LL BE RECORDING THE SHOW THAT EVENING ACROSS THE STATE.

CHECK IT OUT, IT'S A TON OF FUN.

WE'VE GOT A GREAT SHOW LINED UP.

WE HAVE JUST ENOUGH TIME LEFT FOR SHOW-ENDING MUSIC.

ONE OF OUR FAVORITE STATE FAIR PERFORMANCES.

THIS WEEK BACK IN 2013 COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER DALE WATSON JOINED US.

KIND OF JOHNNY CASH-LOOKING GUY.

TAKE A LISTEN.

WE'LL SEE YOU AT THE FAIR NEXT WEEK.

♪ ♪ SHE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE A HAPPY MAN, ♪ MY BABY MAKES ME GRAVY ♪ ♪• A LITTLE GREASE AND LITTLE FLOUR GIVES THE WOMAN A LOT OF POWER ♪ ♪ SHE ALWAYS SEEMS TO KNOW JUST WHAT I'M CRAVING ♪ ♪ AND SHE KEEPS IT BUTTERED UP WITH A WHOLE LOT OF LOVE ♪ ♪ MY BABY MAKES ME GRAVY ♪ ♪ • NOW THE WHISTLE BLOWS AND LUNCH I GET HOME IN A RUSH ♪ ♪ I CAN SMELL THEM BISCUIT BAKING MILES AWAY ♪ ♪ MMM, SHE GREETS ME WITH A SMILE AND THOSE BISCUITS IN A PILE ♪ ♪ A LITTLE KISS AND THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO SAY ♪ MY BABY MAKES ME GRAVY ♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY GREAT RIVER ENERGY, PROVIDING WHOLESALE POWER TO 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE THROUGH ITS MEMBER OWNER COOPERATIVES AND CUSTOMERS.

DELTADENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION, IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH AND HELPING COMMUNITIES THRIVE.

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