>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS  LIKE YOU.

>> Jeff: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, HELPING THE UNHOUSED.

A SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE DIGS INTO THE CITY OF  ALBUQUERQUE'S MUCH-DEBATED NEW PLANS TO ADDRESS  HOMELESSNESS.

>> Ely: YOU KNOW, WE HAVE  ONE SOLUTION HERE, OR WE'LL TRY THIS HERE OR SOMETHING  ELSE.

WE HAVE TO REALLY NEED  LEADERSHIP TO HELP SHAPE HOW THE CITY CAN -- WHO WE WANT  TO BE AS A CITY.

>> Jeff: AND THE MOST  IMPORTANT VOICE IN THE ROOM.

A MAN WHO SPENT SEVERAL  YEARS ON THE STREETS TALKS ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE AND HOW  IT LED TO ADVOCACY WORK.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS  NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS  WEEK, I'M EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR.

HOMELESSNESS IN NEW MEXICO IS ON THE RISE.

AND ATTORNEY DAYMON ELY HAS A PLAN TO ADDRESS IT IN  ALBUQUERQUE.

HIS 60-PAGE REPORT LAYING  OUT SHORT AND LONG-TERM GOALS IS SCHEDULED TO BE  PRESENTED DURING NEXT WEEK'S ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL  MEETING.

IT'S AN AMBITIOUS DOCUMENT  AND IT'S SPARKED PLENTY OF DEBATE IN ADVOCACY CIRCLES.

WE'VE BUILT A GOOD CHUNK OF THIS WEEK'S SHOW AROUND THE  REPORT AND THE RECEPTION IT'S GETTING.

WE'LL HEAR THOUGHTS ON THE PROPOSAL FROM JAMES FREEMAN,  A PERSON WHO ONCE LIVED ON THE STREETS OF ALBUQUERQUE  AND IS NOW A DIRECTOR AT HOPEWORKS, AN ORGANIZATION  THAT HELPS THE HOMELESS.

LATER, HOMELESS ADVOCATE AND  ATTORNEY PETER CUBRA WALKS THROUGH THE CONSTITUTIONAL  RIGHTS OF UNHOUSED PEOPLE.

FIRST, KUNM NEWS DIRECTOR  MEGAN KAMERICK HOSTS THE FIRST OF A TWO-PART  ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION WITH DAYMON ELY, JENNY METZLER,  CEO OF ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS AND  JOHN BULTEN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR EAST CENTRAL  MINISTRIES.

>> Megan: THANKS, JEFF.

DAYMON, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS DOCUMENT FOR  MONTHS.

UPDATING IT AS YOU GATHER  MORE INFORMATION.

WHAT ARE THE OVERALL GOALS  HERE?

WHAT DO YOU WANT CITY  OFFICIALS TO DO WITH THIS?

>> Ely: IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN A  YEAR, VALENTINE'S DAY.

THE MAYOR HAD OFFERED ME A  JOB.

I TOLD HIM I DIDN'T NEED A  JOB.

BUT THAT I WOULD BE WILLING  TO VOLUNTEER TO START TALKING TO EVERYBODY  CONNECTED WITH HOMELESSNESS.

SO THE IDEA WAS TO PUT  TOGETHER A PLAN THAT BOTH THE COUNTY AND CITY COULD  WORK ON TOGETHER, OR AT LEAST THE OUTLINES OF A  PLAN.

WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT  WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SHORT, MEDIUM, LONG-TERM GOALS ALL  WORKING TOGETHER.

SO I'M ON MY, NO-KIDDING,  54th DRAFT BECAUSE EVERY TIME I TALK TO SOMEBODY I  END UP -- IF THERE ARE MAJOR CHANGES, I'LL MAKE THE  CHANGES.

SO I THINK WE'RE CLOSE TO  GETTING SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT.

I HAVEN'T TALK TO THE COUNTY YET.

I'VE TALKED TO INDIVIDUAL COMMISSIONERS.

CITY COUNCIL AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE HAS BEEN GREAT ABOUT  GIVING ME ACCESS TO STAFF.

THE COMMUNITY HAS BEEN GREAT  IN TERMS OF TALKING TO PEOPLE AND GETTING INPUT.

IT'S NOT PERFECT, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A BIBLE.

BUT IT IS NOW 62 PAGES.

AND MOST PEOPLE ARE WAITING  FOR THE MOVIE.

BUT IT'S IN PRETTY GOOD  SHAPE.

>> Megan: JENNY, LET ME TURN  TO YOU.

I SPOKE WITH A MAN WHO WAS  FORMALLY UNHOUSED AND WE'LL MEET HIM LATER IN THE  PROGRAM.

HE EMPHASIZED THAT IT TAKES  MUCH MORE THAN PRESENTING RESOURCES TO PEOPLE.

THERE HAS TO BE SIGNIFICANT TRUST-BUILDING BECAUSE  THERE'S A LOT OF TRAUMA AND MISTRUST AMONG FOLKS THAT  HAVE BEEN ON THE STREET.

HOW DOES YOUR ORGANIZATION  ADDRESS THAT?

>> Metzler: SURE.

OUR BASIS AND HALLMARK HAS NOT BEEN ABOUT WAITING FOR  PEOPLE TO COME FIND US.

AND REALLY OUR ENTIRE MODEL  IS UNDERSTANDING THE ENTIRE CIRCUMSTANCES OF  HOMELESSNESS.

SINCE 1985 WE'RE ONE OF THE  ORIGINAL DEMONSTRATION PROJECTS.

EVERY SERVICE WE HAVE, EVERY SERVICE WE MIGHT ADD AND  INTEGRATED HEALTH DEFINED CAN BE TAKEN OUT INTO THE  FIELD.

WE'RE COMMITTED TO THAT.

EVERY TIME WE START TO BUILD MORE FOUR WALLS AND MORE  BUILDINGS, WE SCALE IT BACK.

BECAUSE, REALLY, IT'S  IMPORTANT THAT WE GO WHERE PEOPLE ARE.

AND PROVIDE THE CARE RIGHT THERE IN THE FIELD TO THEM,  AND DO A LOT.

EVERY ONE IN OUR TEAM IS  TRAINED.

WE HAVE 100 EMPLOYEES.

EVERYONE IS TRAINED IN ENGAGEMENT AND CUSTOMER  SERVICE.

WHATEVER WE CALL THAT.

REALLY AN ABILITY TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE.

UNDERSTANDING THE TRAUMA THAT PEOPLE EXPERIENCED AND  WHY THEY'RE VERY MARGINALIZED AND FEELING  ISOLATED.

EVERYONE'S TRAINED TRAUMA  INFORMED CARE AND ENGAGEMENT.

FROM THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION,  ADMINISTRATORS, BILLING  PEOPLE, FRONT LINE STAFF.

>> Megan: DOES IT TAKE A LOT  OF CONNECTIONS TO FINALLY GET SOMEONE TO SAY I WILL  TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS?

>> Metzler: IT DOES.

BUT IT'S A RANGE.

DAYMON, YOU SAID THIS IN  YOUR DRAFT.

IT'S NOT A MONOLITH.

PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE HOMELESSNESS HAVE AN  EXPERIENCE IN COMMON.

THEY'RE AS DIVERSE AS WE CAN  NAME IT.

WHATEVER THE PERSONAL  VULNERABILITY THAT HAS ALLOWED TEAM TO FALL THROUGH  THE CRACKS OF THE HOLES IN OUR STRUCTURES THAT ARE  FAILING THEM, WE REALLY NEED TO BE ABLE TO BE RESPONSIVE  TO THAT AND UNDERSTAND SOME PEOPLE WILL CONNECT RIGHT  AWAY.

YOU KNOW, A COUPLE DAYS  WE'RE GOOD.

THEY'RE ON THEIR WAY,  THEY'RE BACK HOUSED.

AND SOME WILL BE YEARS.

WE HAVE TO REALLY -- WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO  BE BETTER AT JUST TELLING PEOPLE THAT, BUT REALLY  DEMONSTRATING IT AND SHOWING HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE ON  AVERAGE.

HOW MANY CONTACTS, WHAT  KINDS OF CONTACTS, WHERE DO PEOPLE GO IN HIGHER LEVELS  OF CARE GETTING HOUSED AND GETTING AN INCOME.

ADDRESSING ALL THOSE STRUCTURAL BARRIERS TO  REMAINING HOUSED AND HEALTHY.

WE'VE DONE REALLY GOOD DATA ANALYSIS ON THAT.

WE KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT COME INTO OUR CLINIC,  OUR FOUR WALLS, AND WE LOSE THEM.

WE RE-ENGAGE THROUGH OUTREACH.

WE HAVE DATA ON PEOPLE WHO ONLY GET CARE THROUGH  OUTREACH.

PEOPLE THAT GET THE BEST  CARE THROUGH REFERRALS.

WE REALLY -- I THINK THAT  OUR SECTOR NEEDS TO DEMONSTRATE IT BETTER AND  NOT JUST OVER PROMISE IN OUR HEART OF HEARTS.

WE'RE WORKING ON THAT.

>> Megan: THAT'S GREAT.

JOHN, WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT BARRIERS TO SERVICES FOR  PEOPLE LIVING UNHOUSED.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIGGEST  ROADBLOCKS THAT YOU SEE?

IS MAYOR TIM KELLER'S  ADMINISTRATION DOING ENOUGH TO ADDRESS THOSE?

>> Bulten: BARRIERS, I MEAN IT'S TRUST.

PEOPLE ARE VULNERABLE.

AND THEY'RE IN SITUATIONS  THAT EVEN WHEN THEY DO CONNECT, THERE'S STILL  LEVELS OF HOW TO DO THAT AND WHERE TO GO AND ALL THOSE  THINGS.

WHEN ORGANIZATIONS GO MEET  PEOPLE IN THE STREET AND TAKE CARE OF SERVICES AND  CONNECT THERE, BUT TO SET UP APPOINTMENTS AND ALL THE  REST, OFTEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET PEOPLE INTO  APPOINTMENTS AND FOLLOW UP BECAUSE OFTEN IT FALLS  APART.

A LOT OF TIMES NONPROFITS  HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME WITH CONNECTIONS.

AND KIND OF CONTINUUM OF CARE THAT PASSES PEOPLE  THROUGH A SYSTEM.

>> Megan: DO YOU MEAN AMONG  THE NONPROFITS?

>> Bulten: THROUGH THE  NONPROFITS BUT THE SYSTEM ITSELF.

PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO AN APPOINTMENT HERE, AND THEN  THERE AND THINGS FALL APART IN BETWEEN AND ALL THE REST.

AND, YEAH, THERE ARE A LOT OF BARRIERS IN THAT, IN THE  SYSTEM LEVEL.

>> Megan: DO YOU THINK MAYOR  KELLER'S ADMINISTRATION IS DOING ENOUGH TO ADDRESS SOME  OF THESE?

>> Bulten: NO.

>> Megan: OKAY.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> Bulten: IT'S A DIFFICULT JOB.

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND.

I THINK WE PUT TOO MUCH  EMPHASIS ON THE CITY SOLVING SOMETHING.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

SO THERE'S SO MANY LARGE ISSUES, BUT THIS ONE IS  INTEGRATED IN ALL THE OTHER ISSUES OR IS A SYSTEMIC  PIECE OF ALL THE OTHER ISSUES.

SO WE NEED MORE VISION, MORE LEADERSHIP.

A CITYWIDE APPROACH TO KIND OF BRING THE CITY TOGETHER  AROUND AN ISSUE.

SO IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, WE  HAVE ONE SOLUTION HERE OR WE'LL TRY THIS HERE OR  SOMETHING ELSE.

BUT WE HAVE TO REALLY NEED  LEADERSHIP TO HELP SHAPE HOW THE CITY CAN -- WHO WE WANT  TO BE AS A CITY AND HOW WE WANT TO -- ALL OF OUR  NEIGHBORS TO THRIVE.

>> Megan: DAYMON, I SEE YOU  NODDING.

>> Ely: THERE'S TWO THINGS I  WANT TO TELL YOU.

ONE, I'M SITTING HERE WITH  JENNY AND JOHN.

THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT  WORKING ON THIS PROJECT IS THESE ARE REAL HEROES IN THE  COMMUNITY.

INNOVATIVE, OUT THERE EVERY  DAY FOR YEARS WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITY.

THEY NEED -- THE WHOLE HOMELESS ISSUE, IT NEEDS TWO  THINGS.

IT NEEDS STRUCTURE, WHICH  MEANS A PLAN.

WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT SHORT,  MEDIUM, LONG-TERM GOALS.

WE ALSO NEED MONEY.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE THE CAMERAS  WENT ON.

IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST A CITY  OR COUNTY PROBLEM.

IT'S A STATE PROBLEM.

OVER 35% OF THE HOMELESS POPULATION IN ALBUQUERQUE IS  FROM OUTSIDE BERNALILLO COUNTY, BUT WITHIN THE  STATE.

AND WE NEED THE STATE TO BE  REAL ACTORS WITH MONEY.

THAT'S WHY I'M HOPING  SPECIAL SESSION'S COMING UP AND MY MESSAGE VERY STRONGLY  IS WE NEED MONEY.

>> Megan: DAYMON, YOU HAVE  SHORT-TERM, MEDIUM-TERM, LONG-TERM GOALS IN YOUR  REPORT.

SO I THINK FOR SHORT-TERM  YOU PROPOSE UPGRADING WEST SIDE EMERGENCY SHELTER.

YOU ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE TWO KEY CRITICISMS.

IT'S 20 MILES OUTSIDE OF THE CITY.

WHICH CONTINUES THE IDEA OF PUSHING UNHOUSED FOLKS  OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY.

AND IT DOESN'T FOLLOW BEST  PRACTICES, WHICH HAVE SHIFTED AWAY FROM LARGE  CONGREGATE SHELTERS.

BUT YOU'RE PROPOSING A LOT  MORE RENOVATIONS AND ADDITIONAL SERVICES, SO WHY  PUT RESOURCES INTO IT?

>> Ely: BECAUSE WE HAVE FOUR  TO SIX HUNDRED PEOPLE SOMETIMES AS MANY AS SEVEN  HUNDRED PEOPLE OUT THERE.

THIS ISN'T GOING AWAY  OVERNIGHT.

AM I HAPPY ABOUT IT?

IS IT RIGHT NOW OUT OF A CHARLES DICKENS NOVEL?

IT'S TERRIBLE.

IT JUST IS.

BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE THAT BETTER, BUT WE HAVE TO  UNDERSTAND IT CAN'T BE PERMANENT.

IT'S THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE BENCHMARKS.

WHAT I'VE AGREED AS I'M TALKING TO VARIOUS  ADVOCATES, THE COMPROMISE WAS LET'S PUT MONEY IN THERE  TO MAKE IT AT LEAST LIVABLE TO ATTRACT PEOPLE OFF THE  STREETS, ALONG WITH OTHER THINGS.

MOTELS, OFFICE BUILDINGS, APARTMENTS, ENCOURAGE PEOPLE  TO GET OFF THE STREETS IN THE SHORT-TERM.

BECAUSE IN THE LONG-TERM WE KNOW HOUSING WITH SERVICES  IS THE SOLUTION, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE YEARS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS RIGHT AWAY.

WE REALLY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

WITH THE WEST SIDE SHELTER HAS TO COME REGULAR  TRANSPORTATION.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE  TO DO THAT BY HAVING TWICE A DAY TRANSPORTATION OUT TO  THE SHELTER.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN  HOURLY SHELTER.

BUT IS IT A GREAT SOLUTION?

NO.

I'M NOT JUMPING UP AND DOWN  ABOUT IT.

BUT IT'S THERE, PEOPLE ARE  GOING THERE.

AND WE NEED TO MAKE THAT A  LIVABLE SPACE.

>> Megan: JOHN, YOU AND YOUR  ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH UNHOUSED PEOPLE  FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE  BENEFITS AND THE DRAWBACKS OF A BIG, COORDINATED EFFORT  FROM THE CITY LIKE THE ONE DAYMON IS WORKING ON?

>> Bulten: I APPLAUD IT AND I DON'T TRUST IT.

>> Ely: I GET THAT.

>> Bulten: I THINK, YES, WE  NEED BIG VISION.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, IF WE  NEED MORE MONEY.

>> Megan: REALLY?

>> Bulten: I THINK WE NEED TO ACTUALLY HAVE NEW IDEAS.

I REALLY FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO ALL TAKE A DEEP BREATH  AND SEE HOW WE'RE DOING WITH THE MONEY, WHERE IS THE  MONEY GOING.

AND NOT SAYING DON'T DO IT,  LIKE IT NEEDS TO KEEP GOING.

WHAT WE HAVE NEEDS TO KEEP  GOING.

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO  ACTUALLY SAY, IS OUR APPROACH KEEPING UP WITH THE  NEEDS, AND HOW DO WE THINK ABOUT IT DIFFERENTLY.

HOW DO WE ACTUALLY NOT DO KIND OF TOP-DOWN BIG PLAN  SOLUTION, BUT HOW DO WE REALLY EMPOWER LOCAL  COMMUNITIES, LOCAL GROUPS, NONPROFITS TO REALLY START  WORKING FROM GRASSROOTS LEVEL UP AND COORDINATE THAT  TOGETHER.

>> Ely: CAN I TALK TO THAT  FOR JUST A MINUTE?

I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT THE WAY TO DO IT FROM MY POINT OF VIEW IS WITH DATA.

WE HAVE LOTS OF PROVIDERS OUT THERE.

WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHO IS BEING EFFECTIVE AND WHO IS  NOT.

THAT'S REALLY UNDER THE  MEDIUM TERM SOLUTION.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT EFFICIENT  USE OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

WELL, WE FIGURE OUT WHAT ARE  THE GOALS OF EACH OF THESE NONPROFITS OR ANYBODY ELSE  INVOLVED, HOW ARE THEY MEASURING THE GOALS.

ARE THEY MEETING THOSE GOALS, AND IF THEY ARE  THAT'S A PROGRAM WE WANT TO EXPAND.

AND IF THEY'RE NOT, WE HAVE TO GET IN THERE AND FIGURE  OUT WHY.

AND THEN WE CAN FIGURE OUT  CAPACITY.

SO I DO AGREE AS PART OF  THIS WE HAVE TO HAVE A MORE EFFICIENT USE OF TAXPAYER  DOLLARS.

BUT HOUSING, AFFORDABLE  HOUSING, IS GOING TO COST A LOT OF MONEY.

I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW THE CITY AND COUNTY DO NOT HAVE  THAT KIND OF MONEY.

>> Megan: JENNY, YOU AND I  TALKED IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC.

YOU MIGHT REMEMBER.

I RECALL THAT YOU WERE  MARVELING ABOUT THESE ISSUES AROUND SILOS HAD FALLEN AWAY  AS PEOPLE HAD THIS IDEA OF ALL HANDS ON DECK TO ADDRESS  THIS IMMEDIATE CRISIS.

I SENSE THAT DID NOT LAST.

IS THERE A WAY TO BRING BACK THAT URGENCY?

>> Metzler: SURE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT I LIKE  ABOUT THIS DRAFT PAPER.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE I MIGHT  JUST HAVE A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

I THINK ON WHAT BOTH OF YOU  WERE SAYING.

WE NEED A BIG PLAN AND WE  NEED AN IMPLEMENTATION PLAN.

WE NEED ALL HANDS AND WE  NEED MANY LAYERS DEEP.

THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD DURING  THE PANDEMIC.

EVERYONE PIVOTED.

WE SHIFTED.

WE WERE WORKING TOGETHER  EVERY SINGLE DAY.

YES, WE HAD MORE RESOURCES,  BUT I THINK IT WAS A PRIORITIZATION OF EXISTING  RESOURCES.

IT WAS TOWARD SHARED AIM,  INTENDED GOALS.

THIS WILL SOUND FAMILIAR FOR  BUILT FOR ZERO'S APPROACH WHICH YOU WILL WANT TO TALK  ABOUT, DAYMON, AT SOME POINT.

I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE ALL OF THE ABOVE NOT EITHER/OR.

I THINK THE SHORT, MEDIUM, LONG-TERM, IT'S NOT A LINEAR  THING.

IT'S A COMPLEX ISSUE WITH  SOME REALLY BIG BUT SIMPLE SOLUTIONS.

SO I THINK WITH ALL RESPECT TO OUR COMMUNITIES, THERE'S  A THOUGHT ABOUT WHO IS BEING LEFT OUT, IT HAS TO BE  BOTTOM UP.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST A BIG  TENT.

EVERYBODY GET IN THE ROOM  AND COME UP WITH YOUR IDEAS.

WE DO TOO MUCH OF THAT HERE  AND WE WILL NOT HAVE IMPACT.

THERE ARE PROVEN MODELS.

IN EMERGENCY THERE'S ALL HAZARDS PREPAREDNESS.

THERE'S A COMMAND CENTRAL.

THAT MIGHT NOT FEEL  PHILOSOPHICALLY OKAY TO US, BUT EVERYONE'S ROLE IS  CLEAR.

WHO IS IN CHARGE IS CLEAR,  WHO IS COMMITTED IS CLEAR.

THE ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES.

I THINK ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THOSE BIG IDEAS ARE THERE.

WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT THEM ACROSS POLITICAL CYCLES.

BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME.

I ALSO FEEL THERE ARE TWO THINGS IN THIS CONVERSATION.

ONE, WE'VE SPENT SO MANY DECADES TALKING ABOUT HOW  HARD IT IS TO GET HOUSING ONLINE.

I THINK HOUSING NEEDS TO BE IN THE SHORT, MEDIUM AND  LONG-TERM.

IT NEEDS TO BE ALL OF THE  ABOVE BECAUSE THERE'S THINGS WE CAN DO.

I THINK THAT THEY ARE POLICY AND PHILOSOPHICAL AND  COLLABORATIVE EXCUSES.

I ALSO THINK NONPROFITS ARE  NOT THE SYSTEM.

NONE OF OUR ORGANIZATIONS  ARE GOING TO BE BIG ENOUGH ONE-STOP SHOPS.

I THINK WE ARE TRAINED, I'M GOING TO SAY THIS, TRAINED  AND CONDITIONS IN THE NONPROFIT SECTOR TO BEG FOR  MONEY TO KEEP OUR DOORS OPEN AND WE BELIEVE IN OUR  MISSION AND OVERPROMISE AND UNDER DELIVER AND NOT  ASK FOR ENOUGH MONEY.

IT'S A VERY UNREALISTIC.

AND THAT MAINTAINS THE STATUS QUO.

WE HAVE TO PUMP OUT OF THAT AS WELL.

>> Megan: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE'VE GOT RIGHT NOW.

THANKS, YOU THREE.

WE'LL BE BACK AT THE TABLE  IN A BIT TO TALK ABOUT OTHER POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

HANG TIGHT.

>> Cubra: THE CONVERSATION  THAT I HOPE WE CAN HAVE AMONG PEOPLE HERE IN  ALBUQUERQUE IS CAN WE JUST STOP HARMING PEOPLE WHO ARE  THE SAME AS YOU AND ME AND ARE NOT CRIMINALS.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH  EQUATING BEING POOR WITH BEING A CRIMINAL AND I'M  SICK OF IT.

>> Jeff: MY INTERVIEW WITH  PETER CUBRA WILL RUN IN THE SECOND HALF OF TONIGHT'S  SHOW.

IN THE WEEK SPENT PLANNING  THIS WEEK'S EPISODE, WE KNEW HOW IMPORTANT IT WOULD BE TO  HEAR FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HOMELESS IN NEW MEXICO.

ENTER JAMES FREEMAN.

KNOWN BY MANY FOR THE  RAINBOW SHOES HE WEARS WHILE ATTENDING ALBUQUERQUE CITY  COUNCIL MEETINGS.

JAMES IS NOW A DIRECTOR AT  HOPEWORKS AND AN OUTSPOKEN ADVOCATE FOR THE UNHOUSED IN  ALBUQUERQUE.

HE RECENTLY SAT DOWN FOR A  CONVERSATION WITH MEGAN ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE LIVING  IN SHELTERS AND ON THE STREETS, AND GIVES US HIS  THOUGHTS ON DAYMON ELY'S PROPOSED PLAN.

>> Megan: JAMES FREEMAN, THANKS FOR JOINING US ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Freeman: THANK YOU,  MEGAN, SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Megan: JAMES, YOU CAME TO ALBUQUERQUE IN 2016 ON THE  BUS.

DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF  RESOURCES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU  ENDED UP LIVING ON THE STREET AND WHAT THAT WAS  LIKE?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT I DIDN'T HAVE FAMILY  SUPPORT HERE.

I DIDN'T KNOW ANYBODY HERE.

I ENDED UP HERE AFTER A BAD MARRIAGE BREAKUP.

AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET  BY.

SO I HAD SOME MONEY, BUT I  WAS PRECARIOUSLY HOUSED.

I WAS LIVING IN A HOTEL.

I QUICKLY FOUND MYSELF ON THE STREETS AND ACCESSING  RESOURCES LIKE THE WEST SIDE SHELTER AND OTHER  FACILITIES.

>> Megan: WHERE DID YOU  SLEEP?

I MEAN, WHAT WERE YOUR  BIGGEST CONCERNS ABOUT SAFETY AND GETTING BASIC  NEEDS MET?

>> Freeman: SO I AM A BIG  GUY.

SO I DIDN'T FEEL SO MUCH  PHYSICALLY THREATENED AS MUCH AS HYPERVIGILANT.

I FELT LIKE I COULD NEVER CLOSE MY EYES MORE THAN AN  HOUR OR TWO.

I FELT LIKE I WAS ALWAYS  UNDER THREAT OF BEING ROBBED.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME.

THAT WAS A SERIOUS CONCERN.

I DID STAY AT ONE OF THE --  RIGHT OUTSIDE ONE OF THE SENIOR CENTERS OVER ON COORS  AND BRIDGE.

THAT WAS KIND OF MY MAIN  PLACE.

BACK THEN, THE WEST SIDE WAS  SEASONAL.

SO IT WAS ONLY OPEN FROM  NOVEMBER 15th TO MARCH 15th.

OUTSIDE OF THAT, I WAS  STAYING AT A GENERATIONAL CENTER.

I DID HAVE A PARTNER THAT I CAMPED WITH.

WE TOOK TURNS.

YOU KNOW, WATCHING OUT FOR  EACH OTHER.

LIKE IT'S MY TURN TO WATCH,  YOU STAY UP AND PROTECT ME.

AND THEN WE TOOK TURNS LIKE  THAT.

>> Megan: THAT MUST BE SO  HARD.

YOU NEVER REALLY GET TO  SLEEP.

>> Freeman: IT WAS VERY  TAXING ON MY MENTAL HEALTH AS FAR AS BEING THAT HYPER  VIGILANT ALL THE TIME.

YOU'RE CONSTANTLY IN FEAR.

YOU'RE CONSTANTLY ON-GUARD.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: WHAT ABOUT THINGS LIKE GETTING A SHOWER OR  USING A BATHROOM?

>> Freeman: RIGHT, THESE ARE  THINGS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED BEING HOUSED.

MY GO-TO WAS HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST PRIVATE SHOWERS IN  ALBUQUERQUE.

I WOULD GO THERE ROUTINELY.

ALSO THE ROCK AT NOONDAY HAS VERY NICE SHOWER FACILITIES.

THOSE ARE KIND OF MY GO-TO.

BUT YOU PLAN YOUR ENTIRE DAY  AROUND HOW AM I GOING TO USE THE RESTROOM.

HOW AM I GOING TO USE THIS FACILITY, HOW AM I GOING TO  TAKE A SHOWER.

AND SO, THAT TOOK UP A  CONSIDERABLE PART OF MY DAY.

>> Megan: IT SOUNDS LIKE  EVEN IF SOMEONE DIDN'T HAVE TRAUMA IN THEIR PAST, IF  THEY LIVE ON THE STREET LONG ENOUGH, THEY GET EXPOSED TO  A LOT OF TRAUMA.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, WE OFTEN SAY, IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE PTSD  SYMPTOMS BEFORE BEING HOMELESS, YOU DEFINITELY  DISPLAY THEM WHILE BEING HOMELESS AND AFTER.

BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE HYPERVIGILANCE.

I'VE WITNESSED PEOPLE BEING ASSAULTED, SEXUALLY  ASSAULTED.

SOME OF THE MOST DEPRAVITY  YOU CAN IMAGINE.

IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN TO  ME, BUT AT TIMES JUST WITNESSING THAT CAN BE VERY  EMOTIONALLY CHARGING AND POWERFUL.

>> Megan: I CAN'T IMAGINE.

WHAT KIND OF EFFECTS DID  THAT HAVE ON YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE YOU MET LIVING ON THE  STREET?

GOING THROUGH THIS DAY AFTER  DAY FOR MONTHS.

>> Freeman: I WOULD SAY A  LOT OF IT IS YOUR TRUST IS ERODED.

YOUR TRUST IN HUMANITY, YOUR ABILITY TO ASK FOR HELP,  YOUR ABILITY TO BE VULNERABLE IS DEFINITELY  AFFECTED.

SO IT TOOK ME YEARS TO GET  PAST THAT AND BE ABLE TO TRUST PEOPLE AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, TO RELATE TO PEOPLE AND FEEL TRUST AND  VULNERABILITY AGAIN.

>> Megan: THAT PROBABLY  HAMPERS PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO ACCESS RESOURCES WHEN  THEY'RE OFFERED.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

I WOULD SAY THAT'S A HUGE BARRIER.

THIS IDEA THAT YOU TELL A PERSON ONE TIME, HEY, IF YOU  GO TO THIS AGENCY YOU CAN GET HELP.

YOU'RE LIKE I DON'T TRUST PEOPLE,   I DON'T FEEL LIKE THAT'S FOR ME.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY WOULD GIVE ME HELP.

IT TAKES MANY, MANY TIMES.

SO WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY  REINFORCE THAT, THE ACCESS TO RESOURCES.

BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR TRUST BROKEN,  ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: YOU MENTIONED YOU  SPENT ABOUT FOUR MONTHS AT THE WEST SIDE EMERGENCY  SHELTER.

THIS IS WHEN, AS YOU SAID,  IT WAS SEASONAL.

IT WASN'T 24-7.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> Freeman: IT WAS A  30-MINUTE BUS RIDE TO AND FROM EVERY SINGLE DAY.

WHERE YOU'RE CRAMMED ON LIKE A SCHOOL BUS.

IT IS AN ACTUAL SCHOOL BUS.

JUST THE LOGISTICS OF  GETTING ON THE BUS, YOU'RE SITTING OUT -- AT THIS TIME  WE'RE AT CORONADO PARK.

WE'RE SITTING AT CORONADO  PARK IN THE ELEMENTS BEING RAINED ON IN THE COLD, IN  THE WINTER, AND WE HAVE TO SPEND HOURS GETTING ON THE  BUS.

AND THEN WE'RE HERDED ON TO  THE BUS IN NOT A VERY KIND FASHION.

AND WE SPEND 30 MINUTES IN TRAFFIC GETTING OUT TO THE  WEST SIDE.

AND IT IS AN OLD JAIL.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO WAY TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT'S AN  OLD JAIL.

AND SO, AGAIN, I REALLY  CONSIDER IT A SHELTER OF LAST RESORT.

I STAYED AT THE AOC, THE HEADING HOME'S ALBUQUERQUE  OPPORTUNITY CENTER.

THAT WAS A MUCH BETTER  SHELTER.

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE GOING  ON.

YOU'RE ABLE TO USE THE  COMPUTER.

>> Megan: IT'S OVER ON  CANDELARIA.

MUCH MORE CENTRAL.

>> Freeman: CORRECT.

YOU'RE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH  MORE AT THE AOC.

IT'S JUST MORE OF A KIND,  LOVING PLACE.

SO I'M JUST KIND OF  COMPARING THOSE TWO.

BACK TO THE WEST SIDE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, IF  YOU'RE FACING TERRIBLE CONDITIONS, IF IT'S COLD, IF  YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RESOURCES, I THINK IT'S A  GREAT PLACE.

AGAIN, I WOULD RATHER MOVE  PEOPLE TO THE GATEWAY.

I WOULD RATHER MOVE EVERYONE  TO THE GATEWAY.

>> Megan: THE GATEWAY  CENTER.

>> Freeman: YEAH.

I THINK WE SPENT LOT OF MONEY.

IT'S A 570,000 SQUARE-FOOT BUILDING.

I THINK THAT WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER FACILITY TO STORE  PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THERE'S NO PLAN TO  END HOMELESSNESS ANY TIME SOON.

SO I THINK CREATING A BETTER ENVIRONMENT LIKE THE GATEWAY  WOULD BE SUPERIOR.

>> Megan: ARE YOU FAMILIAR  WITH THE WORK THAT DAYMON ELY HAS BEEN DOING AND HIS  RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY AROUND HOMELESSNESS?

DO YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ON THOSE?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

I READ MR. ELY'S REPORT FROM  LAST YEAR.

AND I'VE READ HIS CURRENT  REPORT THAT WAS JUST RELEASED OVER THE WEEKEND.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF IT.

I WOULD SAY 80%.

I SEE WHERE HE'S COMING  FROM.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH IT.

PROBABLY THE BIGGEST AREA OF DISAGREEMENT IS OVER THIS  IDEA OF TRACKING THE HOMELESS.

TRACKING OUTCOMES.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT  CLIENTS ARE GOING TO BE FORCED TO CONSENT TO GIVING  UP PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY IS A  MISTAKE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, HE PUTS  IN THERE THAT OH, YEAH, GETTING AROUND HIPAA IS NOT  A HARD THING TO DO.

I THINK HIPAA EXISTS FOR A  REASON.

>> Megan: THIS IS THE  FEDERAL HEALTH CARE ACT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO ENSURE  CONFIDENTIALITY.

>> Freeman: EXACTLY.

I SEE WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO WITH WE WANT TO MAKE SURE  WE'RE USING OUR MONEY AND RESOURCES IN THE BEST WAY  POSSIBLE IN PROGRAMS THAT WORK.

IN PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL.

I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT PART.

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP IT ANONYMOUS.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT SOMEBODY'S BIOGRAPHICAL  INFORMATION IS GOING TO BE STORED IN A DATABASE JUST  BECAUSE THEY RECEIVE EBT OR FOOD STAMPS OR HOUSING  VOUCHER THAT THEY SHOULD BE TRACKED, I DON'T AGREE WITH  THAT.

I PARTICIPATED IN THE PIT COUNT WITH THE NEW MEXICO  COALITION.

>> Megan: THE POINT IN TIME  COUNT?

>> Freeman: YES.

>> Megan: THEY DO IT EVERY YEAR.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

I WAS A TEAM LEAD ON THAT IN  FEBRUARY.

AND WE'RE JUST COLLECTING  BASIC DATA, LIKE THE FIRST TWO LETTERS OF YOUR FIRST  NAME, MIDDLE NAME, LAST NAME, MONTH AND YEAR OF  BIRTH, WHERE YOU'RE FROM.

AND SOME OF THAT WAS A  BARRIER, FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

SO THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING  TO GET EVEN MORE DATA OR WE'RE GOING TO EXPECT MORE  DATA TO GIVE OUT RESOURCES I THINK IS HUGE  PROBLEM.

>> Megan: DOES THIS GO BACK  TO SOME OF THE EARLIER CONVERSATION AROUND TRAUMA  AND TRUST?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: OKAY.

YOU NOW HAVE A COLLEGE  DEGREE.

YOU ARE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL.

AND YOU'RE HOUSED AND YOU'RE WORKING AT HOPEWORKS.

WHAT HELPED YOU MAKE THE TRANSITION TO HAVING HOUSING  AND HAVING MORE SECURITY?

>> Freeman: I THINK FOR ME  JUST SO IMPORTANT.

I DECIDED BEING HOMELESS,  BEING UNSHELTERED WAS SO BAD, WAS SO PAINFUL.

I DIDN'T SUFFER FROM SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER.

I DIDN'T SUFFER FROM SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS.

AND IT WAS JUST SO PAINFUL, JUST BEING OUTSIDE, FEELING  LIKE I LOST EVERYTHING.

FEELING LIKE I WASN'T  CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY.

SO I'VE NEVER TOLD -- I MADE  A DEAL WITH GOD.

I TOLD GOD, I SAID, IF YOU  HELP ME GET THROUGH THIS, I WILL DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO  GIVE BACK AND HELP OTHERS.

AND I HOPE I'VE KEPT UP WITH  THAT.

SO THAT'S THE WAY I LIVE  EVERY DAY IS THIS SITUATION IS SO DIRE.

BEING OUTSIDE, BEING UNSHELTERED, IS SO BAD THAT  WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN DO HELP THESE PEOPLE.

AND I TRY TO LIVE THAT EVERY DAY.

>> Megan: YOU WERE GOING TO HOPEWORKS EVERY DAY.

YOU CAN GET FOOD.

YOU CAN CHARGE YOUR PHONE,  WHATEVER.

WHAT WAS THE TRIGGER THAT  MADE YOU TAKE THAT NEXT STEP INTO THE OTHER SERVICES THEY  OFFER TO GET YOU HOUSING?

>> Freeman: THAT'S SUCH A  GREAT QUESTION, MEGAN.

I ACTUALLY SIT IN THE  SHELTER AND STARED AT THE WALL FOR SIX MONTHS.

AND I WAS JUST -- WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO TAKE THAT NEXT  STEP.

AND THEY WOULD PLAY THESE  ANNOUNCEMENTS EVERY DAY AT ABOUT 8 A.M.  GO UPSTAIRS AND TALK TO SO-AND-SO TO DO AN  ASSESSMENT TO GET HELP.

FOR SIX MONTHS I THOUGHT  THAT'S NOT FOR ME.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HELP ME.

AND FINALLY ONE DAY A LIGHT BULB WENT OFF OVER MY HEAD  AND I WAS LIKE I'M GOING TO GO UPSTAIRS AND DO THAT.

AFTER I WENT UPSTAIRS, I DID THE ASSESSMENT, AND ABOUT  SIX WEEKS LATER I WAS ASSIGNED A CASEWORKER.

I WAS ASSIGNED A THERAPIST.

I WAS ASSIGNED A NURSE  PRACTITIONER.

AND EVERYTHING   JUST KIND OF CLICKED ALONG.

AND ABOUT SIX TO NINE MONTHS LATER I RECEIVED A HOUSING  VOUCHER.

AND THAT JUST -- THAT WAS  THE PIVOTAL MOMENT IN MY LIFE THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING  WAS RECEIVING THAT CITY HOUSING VOUCHER ADMINISTERED  BY HOPEWORKS.

>> Megan: THERE'S A LOT OF  DEBATE, AS YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW HERE AND AROUND THE  COUNTRY ABOUT HOW TO ADDRESS THE RISING NUMBERS OF  UNSHELTERED PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT CLEAR HOW OFTEN  POLICYMAKERS LISTEN TO PEOPLE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE  LIKE YOU.

WHAT ARE THEY MISSING BY NOT  HEARING FROM THOSE FOLKS LIKE YOU?

FROM THOSE VOICES.

>> Freeman: I DO THINK IT'S  A HUGE PROBLEM THAT LIVED EXPERIENCE PEOPLE DO NOT  HAVE A BIGGER VOICE.

AND I CONSTANTLY TRY TO  SPEAK UP AND HOPEWORKS HAS A CLIENT ADVISORY BOARD THAT  I'M ON.

>> Megan: SO THE PROVIDERS  ARE HEARING FROM FOLKS?

>> Freeman: YEAH, AND I  THINK IT'S GETTING BETTER.

I THINK THAT WE'RE SPEAKING  UP OUR VOICE IS GETTING LOUDER.

ABSOLUTELY, NOT HAVING THAT PERSPECTIVE, MR. ELY DID NOT  CONSULT WITH ME.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE, DID NOT  CONSULT WITH EVERYBODY WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE.

I THINK THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.

I THINK THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE SHOULD LOOK INTO  FORMING A LIVED EXPERIENCED COMMITTEE.

I DID HAVE A CONVERSATION.

I HAD A KIND RELATIONSHIP  WITH THE FCS DIRECTOR, TRIPLE-H DIRECTOR CAROL  PIERCE AND WE TALKED ABOUT FORMING A LIVED EXPERIENCE  COMMITTEE.

SHE RETIRED IN DECEMBER, OF COURSE.

>> Megan: SHE WORKED IN THE  CITY HOUSING DEPARTMENT.

>> Freeman: SHE WAS THE  DIRECTOR.

SO I WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THAT CONVERSATION.

I THINK I HAVE A KIND RELATIONSHIP WITH SOME OF  THE CITY COUNCILORS.

I'VE HOSTED SOME OF THEM AT  HOPEWORKS.

I WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO  BUILD ON THAT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO BUILD THE LEVEL OF RESPECT, YOU  KNOW, NECESSARY.

BECAUSE OF THE STIGMA.

I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE STIGMA THAT  EVERYBODY ON THE STREET IS SEVERELY MENTALLY DISABLED  OR SEVERELY ADDICTED TO SUBSTANCES.

I TRY TO QUASH THAT AS OFTEN AS I CAN.

BECAUSE THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO JAMES  FREEMAN FOR THE HONEST CONVERSATION.

YOU CAN WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW ON THE NEW MEXICO  IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

SPEAKING OF OUR DIGITAL  PLATFORMS, WE ARE GOING TO LINK TO DAYMON ELY'S REPORT  ON THE NEWLY REDESIGNED NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS WEBSITE.

SO PEOPLE CAN SEE EVERYTHING HE'S PROPOSING IN CONTEXT.

NOW, RETURNING TO OUR ROUNDTABLE, WE WANTED TO  STEP BACK FROM DAYMON'S PROPOSAL AND CONSIDER SOME  ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS THAT GET AT THE LARGER FACTORS  CONTRIBUTING TO HOMELESSNESS.

AND MEGAN ASKS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE TO GET THE SOLUTIONS  CONVERSATION AWAY FROM POLITICS AND MOVING TOWARD  PEOPLE'S NEEDS.

>> Megan: WELCOME BACK,  EVERYONE.

JOHN, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS  PURSUING A MIX OF SOLUTIONS THAT COULD INVOLVE SAFE  OUTDOOR SPACES.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE  IDEAS -- SOME OF YOUR IDEAS AND HOW IS THE CITY  RECEIVING THEM?

>> Bulten: YEAH, FIRST, I'M  A COMMUNITY MEMBER AND A NEIGHBOR.

I LIVE RIGHT OFF OF CENTRAL AVENUE AND WORK RIGHT OFF  CENTRAL AVENUE IN THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT.

I LOOK AT THIS FROM A COMMUNITY STANDPOINT, FIRST.

SO IN THAT BASE OF DEVELOPMENT OVER 25 YEARS,  URBAN FARM, AND YOU KNOW TUTORING KIDS.

16 YEARS AGO, WE STARTED A HOUSING COOPERATIVE.

WE JUST STARTED TALKING TO NEIGHBORS ABOUT OWNERSHIP.

AND THE FACT THAT OUR NEIGHBORHOOD HAS UP TO LIKE  85% RENTAL.

WE WERE SEEING PEOPLE COME  AND GO AND MOVE AROUND AND IT WAS HARD TO HOLD THE  DEPTH OF PEOPLE STAYING.

BECAUSE THERE WASN'T  OWNERSHIP.

BUT PEOPLE COULDN'T GET A  LOAN.

OUR ORGANIZATION COULDN'T  GET A BANK LOAN.

WE IDENTIFIED A PROPERTY  THAT HAD SIX BUILDINGS, 21-BEDROOM APARTMENTS AND  TWO HOUSES.

AND WE GOT PRIVATE INVESTORS  TO GIVE US LOW INTEREST LOANS AND WE ENDED UP BUYING  IT IN 2008.

THE DAY WE BOUGHT IT SEVERAL  FAMILIES MOVED IN BECAUSE THEY WERE UNHOUSED AT THE  TIME.

AND THE DOWN PAYMENT WAS  VERY LOW IN SWEAT EQUITY.

WE HYBRID A COOPERATIVE OUT OF THAT.

16, 17 YEARS LATER, FAMILIES ARE, YOU KNOW, THE ONES  STILL FROM THE ORIGINAL ARE UP TO LIKE $20,000 IN EQUITY  WITH VERY LOW MONTHLY PAYMENTS.

WE'RE TRYING TO FIND COMMUNITY-BASED SOLUTIONS  FOR A LONG TIME.

RIGHT NOW, AS OUR  ORGANIZATION READJUSTED LAST YEAR TO REALLY FOCUS MORE ON  THIS ISSUE BECAUSE IT'S CHRONIC IN THE INTERNATIONAL  DISTRICT.

WE SEE IT AS THIS IS OUR  COMMUNITY.

HOW CAN WE LOOK AT SIMPLE OR  LOCAL SOLUTIONS.

NONE OF IT IS SIMPLE, BUT  LOCAL SOLUTIONS TO KEEP OUR NEIGHBORS, AND NOT DISPLACE  THEM.

BUT REALLY SUPPORT THEM.

IDENTIFYING OVER 300 VACANT  LOTS, AND WE'VE REALLY FOCUSED IN ON HOW CAN WE  ACQUIRE VACANT LOTS WITH PRIVATE MONEY AND ALSO  CAPITAL OUTLAY MONEY WHICH WE WERE FAIRLY SUCCESSFUL  THIS LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

$3.5 MILLION FOR THAT, WHICH IS -- AND OUT OF THAT,  THAT'S GOING TO THE COUNTY.

WE'VE BEEN IDENTIFYING THE  LOTS THAT ARE STARTING TO BE PURCHASED.

AND THEN WE'RE ALSO STARTING A NEW COMMUNITY LAND TRUST.

A GROUP OF NEIGHBORS ARE MEETING EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

13 COMMITTED TO THAT WEEKLY.

BUT THERE'S 25, 50, YOU  KNOW, IN ADVISORY ROLES TO THIS.

JUST GOING THROUGH THE SLOW PROCESS OF WHERE THE VALUES  OF A COMMUNITY LAND TRUST AND HOW COULD COMMUNITY  OWNERSHIP AND STEWARDSHIP OF THE LAND WITH THE NEW IDEAS  OF MORE SMALL INCREMENTAL DEVELOPMENT OF HOUSING START  WORKING WITH PUTTING PEOPLE IN TO SAFE SHELTERS THAT HAVE  LOCKED DOORS AND PLACE TO REST.

>> Megan: SORT OF LIKE PALLET SHELTERS, OR TINY  HOMES.

>> Bulten: ALL OF THE ABOVE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A CONTINUUM OF HOUSING FROM  BEING COMPLETELY UNSHELTERED TO HOMEOWNERSHIP.

BUT THERE ARE BIG MISSING GAPS IN THE SYSTEM.

AND A LOT OF MONEY IN OUR SYSTEM IS GETTING POURED  INTO AFFORDABLE RENTAL.

A LOT OF TAX CREDIT MONEY.

I'D SAY WE NEED MORE OF ALL OF IT, BUT WE HAVE TO FILL  SOME OF THESE GAPS THAT ARE TOO MUCH TO BRIDGE FOR  PEOPLE.

LIKE TINY HOMES, LIKE  SMALLER INCREMENTAL SHELTERS.

AND ALSO MAYBE COOPERATIVES THAT CAN GO FROM RENTAL TO  HOMEOWNERSHIP.

>> Megan: JENNY, YOUR  ORGANIZATION FOCUSES ON MEETING HEALTH CARE NEEDS  FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE UNHOUSED OR PRECARIOUSLY HOUSED.

FIRST, WHAT ARE THEIR NEEDS?

SECOND, WHAT CAN WE DONE IN  THE NEXT YEAR TO ADDRESS THEM?

>> Metzler: WE THINK IN TERMS OF, FROM A PUBLIC  HEALTH SYSTEMS MODEL, VERY EPISODIC BASIC NEEDS.

I HOPE THERE'S A THEME OF WE'RE ALWAYS TRYING TO NOT  GET INTO EITHER/ORS BECAUSE IT HAS TO BE YES.

REALITY HAPPENS IN THE CENTER, IN THE DIALECTIC.

WHERE EVERYTHING IS INTERACTING.

WE ADDRESS HEALTH CARE NEEDS BROADLY DEFINED EXCLUSIVELY  FOR PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS BROADLY  DEFINED.

NOT THE HUD DEFINITION ONLY.

PEOPLE THAT ARE COUCH SURFING, OR DOUBLED UP OR  TRIPLED UP IN THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT.

WE DO ALL THE BASIC HEALTH CARE NEEDS THAT INCLUDE  MEDICAL, DENTAL, ART THERAPY, PREVENTION,  PHARMACY, EXTENSIVE SOCIAL SERVICES, HOUSING  NAVIGATION, CASE MANAGEMENT.

HELPING PEOPLE WITH I.D.s.

IT'S REALLY BASIC.

WE CAN DO THAT ANYWHERE IN  THE COUNTY.

WE ALSO KNOW WE'LL NEVER BE  BIG ENOUGH.

WE HAVE TO COLLABORATE  EXTENSIVELY.

AND WE'RE ALWAYS LOOKING AT  EXITING TO HOUSING.

THERE WAS A TIME WHERE WE'VE  DONE REALLY WELL BOTH THE CITY, COUNTY, AND STATE IN  ADDING HOUSING RESOURCES IN THE FORM OF VOUCHERS.

AND ALSO SOME DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITIES.

BUT RIGHT NOW, WE'VE BEEN STALLED WITH THE MARKET  AFTER THE PANDEMIC.

WITH LANDLORDS AND THEIR  WILLINGNESS TO TAKE VOUCHERS OR NOT.

THERE ARE SOME VERY REAL ADMINISTRATIVE BURDENS FOR  THEM THAT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE.

HOW WE GET BACK TO WORKING TOGETHER.

PRE-PANDEMIC WE CAN GET SOMEONE HOUSED FROM THE  STREETS WITH A VOUCHER IN ABOUT TWO WEEKS.

WITH THAT WRAPAROUND SUPPORT.

I'M NOT GOING TO LET GO OF THAT POSSIBILITY.

>> Megan: THAT'S NOT HAPPENING NOW.

>> Metzler: IT'S NOT HAPPENING NOW.

BUT ADDRESSING THOSE BASIC NEEDS BUT NEVER LOSING THE  COLLABORATIVE SYSTEMS.

WHAT WE WANT ARE HOUSED  PEOPLE WITH ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE, A DECENT INCOME.

WHETHER THEY'RE WAGES OR BENEFITS TO WHICH THEY'RE  ENTITLED FOR DISABILITIES.

AND THAT WE'RE ALL  COLLABORATING TOGETHER AND HOLDING THE COMMUNITY AND  THE SYSTEM ACCOUNTABLE TO NOT LET OUR NEIGHBORS BE OUT  THERE WITH WHAT WE ALL SEE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I THINK THE COLLABORATION.

I THINK THE LEADERSHIP AND  THE BIG PLAN THAT HOLDS US TOWARD IMPACT IS REALLY  IMPORTANT.

>> Megan: THAT'S WHERE YOU  COME IN, DAYMON.

>> Ely: YEAH, I'M THINKING  ABOUT IT AS I'M LISTENING TO THEM, AND I'M THINKING WHAT  AM I REALLY TRYING TO DO HERE.

I'M TRYING TO MAKE THEIR LIFER EASIER.

BECAUSE FROM A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE, RIGHT, I'M A  FORMER LEGISLATOR.

WHAT I KNOW AS A POLITICIAN  IS THAT IF THE PUBLIC THINKS YOU'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT  DIRECTION, THEY'RE GOING TO BE MUCH MORE ACCEPTING OF  NEW AND INNOVATIVE APPROACHES.

THEY WILL EXPAND.

I THINK ULTIMATELY PEOPLE  ARE EMPATHETIC.

BUT THEY WANT TO BE ON THE  SIDE OF SUCCESS.

AS LONG AS WE'RE HERE AND  MOVING, NOT BECAUSE THESE GUYS, BUT JUST BECAUSE THERE  HASN'T BEEN THIS STRUCTURE THAT THE PUBLIC PERCEIVES  WE'RE MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

AND THEY'RE NOT WRONG ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE THE HOMELESS POPULATION IS GROWING IN  ALBUQUERQUE, AND SIGNIFICANTLY.

IF WE CAN START TO TURN THE CORNER, AND WE'RE -- I KEEP  SAYING THIS TO PEOPLE THAT WE'RE ON THE FRONT PAGES OF  THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT WE'RE LEADING NATION, I  THINK THE PUBLIC WILL BE MUCH MORE ACCEPTING OF NEW  AND INNOVATIVE IDEAS THAT ARE REALLY MOVING THE  ENVELOPE AND WE CAN -- THEY'LL START TO LOOK AT THE  HOMELESS MUCH DIFFERENTLY.

AS PEOPLE WE CAN HELP, AS  OUR NEIGHBORS WHO FELL ON HARD TIMES.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM, RIGHT.

AND I SAID THIS, THE  STATISTICS ARE HOMELESS HAVE A 30-YEAR LESS LIFE  EXPECTANCY THAN THE REST OF US.

ONE OUT OF EVERY FOUR DAYS ONE OF THEM DAYS.

IT'S A PROBLEM.

>> Megan: DEFINITELY.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, DAYMON, YOU WRITE IN YOUR  REPORT, IN ORDER TO BUILD SUPPORT, MOTIVATION AND  CONNECTION BETWEEN THE GOALS AND THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE,  WE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING THE HOMELESS POPULATION TO GET  OFF THE STREETS, PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY  CAN GO.

AND THEN PROVIDE THE PUBLIC  WITH AN ACCURATE PICTURE OF WHO IN OUR COMMUNITY IS  HOMELESS.

SO I HAVE TO ASK IF THESE POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS YOU'RE  PROPOSING ARE FOCUSED ON SHOWING THE PUBLIC THAT  SOMETHING IS BEING DONE OR FOCUSED ON SOLUTIONS THAT  WILL GET UNHOUSED PEOPLE WHAT THEY NEED TO BE SAFE  AND SECURE?

>> Ely: IT'S BOTH.

IT REALLY IS.

IF WE CAN FOCUS ON  SOLUTIONS, THEN, AND HAVE A STRUCTURE TO HELP THEM,  THESE PEOPLE DO A GOOD JOB WITH HOMELESS AND GET PEOPLE  OFF THE STREETS.

WHERE THEY ARE DYING.

I MEAN THAT'S JUST THE REALITY.

THEN THE PUBLIC, I THINK, WILL BE MUCH MORE ACCEPTING  OF EVEN MORE INNOVATIVE AND AGGRESSIVE APPROACHES.

AND THERE'S ALL THESE MYTHS ABOUT PEOPLE WANT TO BE ON  THE STREETS.

THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

YOU HAVE -- WE NEED TO IDENTIFY THE HOMELESS  POPULATION.

WE CAN DO THAT.

SO WE KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE.

WHAT THEIR PROBLEMS ARE AND CONDITIONS ARE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO LET THE PUBLIC KNOW THAT BY NAME,  BUT WE SHOULD BE MUCH MORE DETAILED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING  ON.

>> Megan: JOHN, I SEE YOU  LEANING IN.

>> Bulten: YEAH.

AND WHAT THEIR ASSETS ARE.

WHAT THEIR GIFTS ARE.

WHAT THEIR HOPES ARE.

WHAT THEIR DREAMS ARE.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THE SMALL ENCAMPMENT.

SMALL, 50 PEOPLE.

AND YOU START TALKING TO  PEOPLE, AND YOU KNOW, SEVERAL OF THEM WOULD LOVE  TO BUILD.

BECAUSE THEY'RE BUILDERS.

AND WE START TALKING ABOUT IF WE HAVE A TRAILER AND  SOME MATERIAL THEY WOULD LOVE TO BUILD THEIR OWN TINY  HOME.

THEIR EYES LIGHT UP.

SO GETTING PEOPLE PARTICIPATING AT ALL  DIFFERENT LEVELS -- I THINK PART OF OUR ISSUE IS IT'S  SUCH A LARGE ISSUE, EVERYONE FEELS KINDA PARALYZED.

WE LOOK TO THE CITY TO SOLVE IT OR ALL THE NONPROFITS OR  WHY ISN'T IT BEING SOLVED.

AND IF WE CAN BREAK IT DOWN,  SO PEOPLE VOLUNTEER AND THEY GAVE, THAT'S GREAT.

BUT IF WE CAN BREAK THE BIG PROBLEM DOWN INTO BITE-SIZE  PIECES.

SMALL VACANT LOTS, HEY, A  CHURCH RAISED MONEY TO BUY A VACANT LOT.

DONORS GAVE TO THAT VACANT LOT.

AND A GROUP CAME TOGETHER AND PARTICIPATED IN BUILDING  A SHED AS A PROTOTYPE.

IF WE CAN GET MORE PEOPLE  INVOLVED AND ENGAGED, BUT LOOK AT IT AS ASSETS AS  WELL, AND HOW DO WE START MOVING TOWARD -- HOW DO WE  WORK TOGETHER AT THIS FROM ALL DIFFERENT LEVELS.

BUT THE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS HAVE HOPES, DREAMS,  SKILLS.

HOW DO WE UTILIZE THEIR  CREATIVITY AND RESILIENCE TO SURVIVE?

>> Megan: YOU WANT A SHIFT IN THE CONVERSATION, A SHIFT  IN THE OUTLOOK.

>> Bulten: YES.

I DON'T WANT TO JUST TALK ABOUT WE NEED MORE MONEY.

WE DO.

WE NEED MORE OF ALL OF IT.

I WANT TO SHIFT THE CONVERSATION ABOUT IT.

>> Megan: YEAH.

JENNY, I SEE YOU.

>> Metzler: YEAH, THIS IS BACK TO THE DICHOTOMIES AND  THE DIALECT.

THE TASTY SOLUTIONS ARE IN  THE GUTS IN THE MIDDLE.

AND YES TO EVERYTHING YOU  SAID.

THAT WILL NOT END  HOMELESSNESS.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE  THE PEOPLE FOR WHOM EXPERIENCE EVERYTHING WE'RE  TALKING ABOUT.

I DO AGREE HOMELESSNESS IS  WHERE THE NEXUS OF EVERY SOCIAL ECONOMIC TRAUMATIC  ILL COME TOGETHER.

IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THE  STRUCTURES AND THE ROOT CAUSES THAT CREATE IT -- AND  I THINK OUR ORGANIZATION TALKS ABOUT THIS A LOT,  THERE IS A PUBLIC AND PRIVATE COMMUNITY, NATIONAL  GOOD OF THE COMMON ACCOUNTABILITY TO THIS.

WE MAKE POLICY AND RESOURCE ALLOCATION DECISIONS AT SO  MANY LEVELS.

WE AS A COUNTRY, AS A  COMMUNITY, THAT CREATES THESE CONDITIONS.

AND THAT'S HOW WE CAN END THAT.

IT HAS TO BE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF HOW WE END THEM.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THE EQUATION HAS TO BE WHAT YOU'RE  TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT DAYMON  IS TALKING ABOUT.

I THINK THAT'S THE CHALLENGE  TO US AS A COMMUNITY IS TO NOT BE SEPARATED BY HOW WE  TALK ABOUT THINGS AND OUR ANGLE ON THE ISSUE.

EVERYBODY CARES.

I DON'T THINK -- I DON'T  KNOW ANYONE -- I TALKED TO A LOT OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS WHO  WANT PEOPLE IN TENTS ON THE SIDEWALK.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF WE START THERE -- YES, I THINK ALL OF  THAT.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT WILL  ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF WHY SO MANY PEOPLE ARE OUT  IN THE STREETS.

>> Ely: BREAK DOWN THE  SILOS.

THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.

POLITICALLY, WE HAVE THE CITY, WE HAVE THE COUNTY AND  STATE BY WAY OF EXAMPLE.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO, WHAT  I THINK WE'RE ALL TRYING TO DO IS BREAK THAT APART.

AND SAY, LET'S FOCUS TOGETHER.

ONCE WE START TO DO THAT, THEN IT'S A COMMUNITY  PROBLEM.

I'M A LAWYER.

BUT PARTICULARLY AS A LAWYER, I DON'T THINK LAW  GETS TO SOLVE THIS.

I DON'T THINK THE COURTS CAN  SOLVE IT.

I THINK ONCE YOU START TO BE  MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, FOR EXAMPLE,  RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS ARE GOING TO BE KEY TO HELPING  SOLVE HOMELESSNESS.

I REALLY DO THINK SO.

BUT I THINK THE TOPIC SENTENCE TO ALL OF THIS IS  BREAKING DOWN SILOS.

>> Megan: WELL, JENNY,  DAYMON, JOHN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON THE SHOW  TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

AND I FEEL LIKE WE'LL BE DOING IT AGAIN IN THE NOT  TOO DISTANT FUTURE.

>> Megan: THANK YOU.

>> Ely: THANK YOU.

>> Bulten: THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: THANKS AGAIN TO DAYMON ELY, JENNY METZLER,  AND JOHN BULTEN.

AND THANKS TO MEGAN FOR ALL  THE WORK SHE DID TO REPORT ON THIS CRISIS FOR THIS  WEEK'S SHOW.

LAST MONTH, THE U.S. SUPREME  COURT HEARD ORAL ARGUMENTS IN GRANTS PASS VERSUS  JOHNSON.

IT'S A CASE CENTERED ON THE  CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS FOR THE UNHOUSED.

AND THE JUSTICES MUST NOW WRESTLE WITH THE THORNY  QUESTION OF WHETHER CITIES ARE VIOLATING THE EIGHTH  AMENDMENT'S PROHIBITION AGAINST CRUEL AND UNUSUAL  PUNISHMENT BY FINING OR JAILING SOMEONE FOR SLEEPING  ON PUBLIC LAND WHEN THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO.

IT'S A MAJOR CASE THAT COULD RESHAPE THE WAY THOSE WHO  ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS ARE POLICED.

INCLUDING HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

TO GET AT SOME OF THE LEGAL NUANCE AND HOW SOCIETY  SHOULD BALANCE THE RIGHTS AND INTERESTS OF EVERYONE  WHEN IT COMES TO THE HOMELESSNESS CRISIS, I  BROUGHT IN ATTORNEY PETER CUBRA WHOSE HAS BEEN  ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF UNHOUSED PEOPLE FOR DECADES.

PETER, IT'S REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU, AND WELCOME BACK TO  NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Cubra: I'M ALWAYS HAPPY  TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: SO I WANT TO TALK  ABOUT THE ISSUE OF PEOPLE LIVING OUTSIDE.

I'D LIKE TO DO THAT THROUGH THE LENS OF RIGHTS AND  INTERESTS.

I'D LIKE TO START WITH A  REALLY BASIC QUESTION.

DO YOU HAVE HAVE TO HAVE A  STREET ADDRESS FOR THE CONSTITUTION TO APPLY TO  YOU?

>> Cubra: NO, OF COURSE NOT.

MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA DON'T HAVE STREET ADDRESSES.

THE CALCULATION THAT WE HEAR THESE DAYS OF LESS THAN A  MILLION IS VASTLY OFF.

ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE  AMERICANS IF THEY'RE HERE.

>> Jeff: OKAY, SO WHEN WE  TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE OF HOMELESSNESS, WHO ELSE HAS  RIGHTS IN THAT CONVERSATION?

AND WHAT ARE THEY?

>> Cubra: WELL THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION  I HADN'T ANTICIPATED.

PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN  ALBUQUERQUE ALL HAVE RIGHTS.

AND THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE  ACTUALLY HAS RIGHTS.

BUT WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME  AFTER YOU AND I TALKED ON THE PHONE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE  USING THAT WORD TO CHARACTERIZE WHAT IS IN FACT  AN INTEREST.

AND NOT A RIGHT.

>> Jeff: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, PETER, BETWEEN A  RIGHT AND INTEREST?

>> Cubra: WELL, MY NEIGHBOR  HAS AN INTEREST IN MY KEEPING MY LAWN TIDY.

AND IN MY NOT BEING SUCH AN OUTLANDISH NEIGHBOR THAT  IT'S HARD FOR HIM TO SELL HIS HOUSE.

BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO TELL ME HOW TO LIVE  OR HOW TO KEEP MY LAWN.

SO THAT IS THE CONTROVERSY  THAT SEEMS TO ME SO PECULIAR.

WE TALK ABOUT PEOPLE AND NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS AS  HAVING THE RIGHT TO NOT HAVE THE UNPLEASANTNESS OF HAVING  POOR PEOPLE NEARBY.

THAT'S JUST FALSE.

IT'S NOT A RIGHT.

>> Jeff: SO ONE OF THE  THINGS I'M PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN, IT SEEMS TO  ME THERE ARE A COUPLE OF SYSTEMS THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE  FOR BALANCING THE KINDS OF INTERESTS THAT YOU JUST  TALKED ABOUT.

AND I'D LIKE TO START ON THE  POLICY SIDE.

WHAT OBLIGATION DO  POLICYMAKERS, BE THEY MAYORS, CITY COUNCILORS,  GOVERNORS, WHAT OBLIGATION DO THEY HAVE TO BALANCE THE  INTEREST OF A NEIGHBOR, BUSINESS OWNER, AND PERSON  LIVING UNSHELTERED?

>> Cubra: AS A MATTER OF  LAW, THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO NOT AFFIRMATIVELY CAUSE  HARM.

BUT HERE IN A COMMON LAW  COUNTRY, UNLIKE A CIVIL LAW COUNTRY LIKE FRANCE, THE  GOVERNMENT DOESN'T OWE ANYTHING TO ANYBODY EXCEPT  DON'T HARM THEM.

AND SO HERE WE ARE IN  ALBUQUERQUE WHERE THERE IS A LAWSUIT GOING ON ABOUT THE  RIGHTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED TO EXIST.

AND THAT'S A FRAMEWORK THAT OTHER COURTS HAVE SAID YOU  HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE TREATED CRUELLY AND  UNUSUALLY AND WHEN YOU'RE PERFORMING THE ESSENTIAL  FUNCTION OF SLEEPING, WHICH IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN STAY  ALIVE, YOU HAVE TO BE ALLOWED TO HAVE A PLACE TO  DO THE ESSENTIAL FUNCTION.

THAT'S A RIGHT.

AND TO DENY YOU A PLACE TO SLEEP IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL.

THAT'S THE FRAMEWORK OF THE LAWSUITS WE'VE BEEN SEEING.

AND THE ONE THE GRANT PASS CASE IS ABOUT.

THAT RIGHT.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GET TO  THE EIGHTH AMENDMENT IN JUST A MINUTE AND THE CRUEL AND  UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT CLAUSE.

ONE OTHER THING I'VE BEEN  THINKING ABOUT SINCE WE CHATTED ON THE PHONE THE  OTHER DAY, I THINK PEOPLE OFTEN THINK OF BACK TO THE  INTERESTS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THEY THINK OF THE INTERESTS OF A BUSINESS OWNER AS  SOMEHOW IN COMPETITION WITH THE INTERESTS OR THE RIGHTS  OF A PERSON WHO IS UNHOUSED TO EXIST.

DO THESE HAVE TO BE COMPETING INTERESTS?

DO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT THAT WAY?

>> Cubra: WELL, I DON'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

AND IN THESE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AS I'VE BEEN DOING A  LOT OF WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED, I IN THE LAST  SEVERAL MONTHS HAVE STARTED TO REACH OUT TO BUSINESS  OWNERS AND LEADERS OF BUSINESS ASSOCIATIONS TO  TALK ABOUT WHERE THEIR INTERESTS ARE THE SAME AS  PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED.

SO BUSINESS OWNERS DO NOT  WANT PEOPLE SLEEPING ON THEIR DOORSTEP INTERFERING  WITH PEOPLE COMING IN AND OUT OF THE BUSINESS.

AND YET, WHAT'S CURRENTLY GOING ON IN OUR TOWN IS WHEN  PEOPLE FIND A PLACE THAT'S OUT OF THE WAY AND THEY DO A  CAMPING ARRANGEMENT WHICH IS EITHER SMALL OR LARGE, AND  THEY STAY OUT OF THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, AND THEY HAVE A  PLACE -- RIGHT NOW GOVERNMENT, THE CITY  ADMINISTRATION IS CHASING THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE,  OFTENTIMES STEALING THEIR STUFF AND DESTROYING IT.

AND THEN FORCING THEM INTO ALLEYWAYS AND OTHER KINDS OF  PLACES THEY WOULD RATHER NOT BE.

THE BUSINESS OWNERS HAVE THAT SAME INTEREST.

LET'S HAVE THESE PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE A ROOF STAY IN  PLACES THAT ARE OUT OF THE WAY, RELATIVELY CONTAINED,  AND NOT BOTHERING ANYBODY.

SO I HAVE FOUND THAT THERE  ARE BUSINESS OWNERS WHO NOW SEE THAT HAVING A PLACE FOR  PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD A ROOF AND DON'T HAVE ONE  OUGHT TO BE ALLOWED TO STAY.

THOSE ARE COMMON INTERESTS.

>> Jeff: I'M CURIOUS TOO, YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK  A LONG TIME OBVIOUSLY.

AND THINGS DON'T ALWAYS WORK  THE WAY THEY SHOULD.

BUT IN PRACTICE, IN EFFECT  ULTIMATELY BASED ON THE POLICIES WE SEE FROM THE  CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE AND ELSEWHERE WHOSE INTERESTS  END UP TRUMPING WHOSE?

>> Cubra: IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS  THAT OUR MAYOR DECIDED SOMETIME IN 2022 THAT HE WAS  GOING TO GET TOUGH ON PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED.

AND HE HELD THAT SPEECH AT CORONADO PARK WHERE HE  STARTED TO SAY THAT CRIME AND BEING UNHOUSED ARE  EQUIVALENT.

AND HE STARTED TO EQUATE  BEING WITHOUT A PLACE TO LIVE WITH BEING A CRIMINAL.

SINCE THAT TIME, HE AND THE POLICE CHIEF HAVE BEEN  HAMMERING THE UNHOUSED.

WE'VE SEEN IN A RECENT  PUBLICATION THAT THE POLICE CHIEF SAID IN WRITING TO OUR  MAYOR, LET'S HAMMER THE UNHOUSED.

AND HE IS STILL THE POLICE CHIEF.

IF HE SAID LET'S HAMMER THE POOR, OR LET'S HAMMER THE  PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LOT OF MELANIN IN THEIR SKIN, WHAT  WOULD A PROPER MAYOR DO?

>> Jeff: I THINK THAT IS A  FAIR QUESTION.

ALSO, YOU AND I HAVE BEEN BOTH AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO  KNOW THIS IS ISN'T THE FIRST CITY ADMINISTRATION THAT'S  TAKEN THIS APPROACH.

WE'VE SEEN THIS IN THE PAST.

I'LL NEVER FORGET A LAWSUIT THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE 4th  STREET MALL AND TEXT MESSAGES WERE UNCOVERED  THERE WHERE THEN PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR DARREN WHITE  TOLD THE POLICE THEY COULD TAKE THE HANDCUFFS OFF.

THIS IS AN OLD NARRATIVE WE'VE SEEN HERE.

I WANT TO PIVOT TO THE CONSTITUTION.

ONE OF THE KNOCKS ON THE CONSTITUTION IS THAT IT  DISFAVORS THE PUBLIC GOOD IN FURTHERANCE OF INDIVIDUAL  RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES.

DOES THAT RESONATE IN THE  CONTEXT OF THE CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING AROUND  HOMELESSNESS?

>> Cubra: NO.

ACTUALLY, THE PEOPLE WHO I HAVE BEEN -- I'VE DONE THESE  LISTENING SESSIONS AMONG PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED FOR  ABOUT TWO YEARS NOW.

I'VE MET HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE  WHO ARE SLEEPING OUTDOORS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A  ROOF.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT WHAT  THE DEMONIZERS ACCUSE THEM OF BEING, BY AND LARGE.

THERE ARE, IN FACT, PEOPLE WHO ARE PREDATORY AND  GENERALLY EXPLOIT OTHERS WHO ARE UNHOUSED AS OPPOSED TO  PEOPLE WHO ARE PRIVILEGED.

BUT AMONG THAT POPULATION,  WHAT I HAVE FOUND IS THAT I'VE MET PEOPLE WHO WERE  BANK CLERKS, EDUCATORS, PEOPLE WHO AGED OUT OF THE  CHILD WELFARE SYSTEM WHEN THEY TURNED 18.  WHO ARE EVERY BIT AS NORMAL, TYPICAL, GOOD AS ANY  OTHER PERSON IN THIS COMMUNITY.

AND YET, THEY'RE NOT BEING TREATED THAT WAY.

AND THEY'RE BEING TREATED AS IF THEY ARE CRIMINALS.

AND THAT'S THE THING THAT'S WRONG WITH THE RHETORIC OF  THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION.

THOSE PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT  TO NOT BE HARMED BY THE GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT'S THE SUBSTANTIVE DUE PROCESS, RIGHT.

WHAT'S CALLED THE DANGER CREATION THEORY.

THE GOVERNMENT IS PROHIBITED BY THE UNITED STATES  CONSTITUTION FROM CAUSING HARM TO THOSE PEOPLE, JUST  AS THEY ARE ME, AND YOU, AND THE MAYOR.

SO THAT IS THE CONVERSATION THAT I HOPE THAT WE CAN HAVE  AMONG PEOPLE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

CAN WE JUST STOP HARMING PEOPLE WHO ARE THE SAME AS  YOU AND ME AND ARE NOT CRIMINALS?

BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH  EQUATING BEING POOR WITH BEING A CRIMINAL, AND I'M  SICK OF IT.

>> Jeff: PETER, LET'S TALK  ABOUT THE OTHER SYSTEM THAT MAYBE CREATES A POTENTIAL  AVENUE TO ADDRESS THIS.

AND THAT'S THE COURTS.

YOU MENTIONED JOHNSON VERSUS GRANTS PASS, WHICH IS A CASE  OUT OF OREGON.

THE JUSTICES HEARD ORAL  ARGUMENTS LAST WEEK.

ASIDE FROM KIND OF CRUEL AND  UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT PIECE OF THAT, WHAT IS AT THE HEART  OF THAT CASE AND HOW COULD IT IMPACT WHAT'S HAPPENING  IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Cubra: WELL, BY AND  LARGE, WHAT THOSE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES FOCUSED ON  WAS THE DECISION OUT OF THE NINTH CIRCUIT WHICH IS BASED  ON THE CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT CLAUSE.

BUT THEY ALSO DID TALK ABOUT THE SUBSTANTIVE DUE  PROCESS RIGHTS.

AND WHAT IT IS THAT PEOPLE  WHO ARE UNABLE TO CARE FOR THEMSELVES ARE ENTITLED TO  UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

AND I THINK IT WAS AMY  BARRETT WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SUBSTANTIVE DUE  PROCESS RIGHTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED.

BUT SHE ACTUALLY SHOT HERSELF DOWN AND STOPPED  TALKING ABOUT IT BECAUSE SHE SAID THAT'S NOT WHAT GRANTS  PASS IS ABOUT.

THAT'S WHAT THE ALBUQUERQUE  CASE IS ABOUT.

FRIENDS OF MINE WHO ARE  BRINGING THAT CASE HAVE BROUGHT THE CRUEL AND  UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT CLAIM.

BUT THEY ALSO BROUGHT THE  CLAIM UNDER THE SUBSTANTIVE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS UNDER OUR  STATE CONSTITUTION.

AND OUR STATE CONSTITUTION  IS NOT NECESSARILY BOUND BY JUST THE PARAMETERS OF THE  FEDERAL CONSTITUTION.

AND SO IT WILL BE  INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT CASE UNFOLDS.

>> Jeff: MY LAST QUESTION, I'VE GOT A MINUTE OR TWO  LEFT, HERE.

I WANT TO JUST ASK SORT OF  THE BIG OPEN-LENSED QUESTION OF FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AT  LEAST, WHAT ROLE SHOULD THE COURTS HAVE IN ADDRESSING  THIS ISSUE THAT WE'RE ALL LIVING WITH AND EXPERIENCING  WITH FOLKS WHO LIVE OUTSIDE?

>> Cubra: THANKS FOR ASKING  THAT.

IN MY YEARS OF DOING  LAWSUITS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HARMED BY THE  GOVERNMENT, I HAVE OFTEN SEEN COURTS AS THE LAST  RESORT.

WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO COURT  TO TRY AND ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES, IT'S USUALLY BECAUSE  THE PEOPLE WHO YOU'RE TRYING TO HELP ARE DISFAVORED.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE POWER.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH INFLUENCE WITH ELECTED  POLITICIANS.

AND SO I DO CONTINUE TO  THINK OF COURTS AS THE LAST METHOD THAT ANYBODY SHOULD USE.

BUT THE ONLY METHOD THAT'S AVAILABLE WHEN PEOPLE ARE  DISFAVORED.

I DO HOPE THAT THE  POLITICIANS IN ALBUQUERQUE WILL TURN THE CONVERSATION  TO HOW CAN WE BALANCE THE INTERESTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE  POOR WITH THE BALANCE OF BUSINESS OWNERS AND OTHERS.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING THE CITY COUNCIL IS GOING TO  DO.

>> Jeff: PETER, THANK YOU SO  MUCH FOR THE THOUGHTFUL CONVERSATION.

I APPRECIATE IT, AS ALWAYS.

>> Cubra: HAPPY TO BE HERE.

THANKS.

>> Jeff: THANKS FOR  WATCHING.

AND WE'LL SEE   YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.