- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, it's Haitian Heritage Month and we're taking a look at the country's past, present, and future and how events in the country impact local Haitians who have banded together to preserve their culture and create new narratives.

We'll share how two groups are sustaining legacy and celebrating as family.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- [Announcer] Quality Public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm your host, Kenia Thompson.

Today, we're setting sale on a voyage through the turbulent waters of Haiti's past.

From the fiery days of the revolution to the complex realities of the present.

As a child of Haitian parents myself, I have asked questions as to why the conditions exist as they do currently in Haiti.

We'll uncover why the struggles in the country are there and how local North Carolinians are making sure that we don't lose our pride in knowing and understanding who we are as Haitians.

I wanna welcome our first guest.

She too is the child of Haitian parents.

Dominique Alphonse-Sainvil is the owner of the Dominique Experience and brings us insight today on the beautiful island of Haiti.

Welcome, my friends.

- Hello, how are you?

- I'm well.

How are you doing?

- Good.

- Good.

You know, there's a lot to unpack when we talk about Haiti's history and obviously, we don't have all that time today.

- Absolutely.

- But as briefly as you can, keeping into perspective Haiti's timeline from the revolution to today, let's talk about some of those influencing factors and how they've played a role.

- Well, for one, we need to be crystal clear and abundantly clear about that the state of Haiti today is not the Haiti that we know, the Haiti that was, and the Haiti that has the potential to be.

When you think of Haiti, the Island of Espanola.

- Yes.

- Which is prior to 1492.

We had what we had of occupants and immigrants that were on this island that occupied it way before the revolution, right?

And so, when you take that timeline and speak of what was, how it is, and how rich that island was, as far as the timeline is concerned.

And then before colonization, we had that existing, right?

And so, let's be clear, Haiti was one of the richest and is resourcefully as far as tobacco, coffee, sugar cane.

So, we understand that it is, because of the richness of its resources that it was always a target place.

- Gold too was one of the resources.

- Absolutely.

- Still is today.

- It still is today.

- Yeah.

- So, it makes sense that when you take on what was determined to be the revolution that we took on as far as being determined and taking to the streets and understanding that this is what we needed to do to gain our independence.

And this is what we, which is, it's our heritage, right?

It's our legacy that we are a vigilante type of justice.

And so, the state of Haiti today is not the Haiti that we know.

- And to be clear, you know, we weren't the first group to try to gain independence.

We were not, unfortunately, though we find that Haiti had the most slaves.

I think it was something like 500,000 slaves- - Correct.

- that were on- that island.

- Island.

- In that little part of the island, right?

Because as we know, Espanola today is DR, Dominican Republic- - Correct.

- and Haiti, and we had 500,000 enslaved people from Africa on this island.

But to your point, it was inhabited before by, and I'm just learning all this, Native Americans, Indians, right?

- Right.

- And so when think about the coups that happen, right, the overtaking of our enslavers, it happens gradually across the country.

- That is correct.

- And so, let's go to the next question about talking about how that legacy, so again, we've been known as the first generation the first population to successfully gain independence from our oppressors.

But we've almost been paying a price for that ever since.

- Absolutely, you've been paying a price, because as we mentioned, resourcefully, you are the richest Caribbean island.

And so, it created this need to always dwell there.

To always let's be for real.

You don't throw rocks at a tree that doesn't have fruit.

And so, what then happens is that Haiti has never not produced a millionaire.

So, everybody who comes through has always gained for self and moved on, because Haiti has been so resourceful.

- Yeah, and you know, the resourcefulness has again paid a price, because they knew that we had so much value on the island that there's been repayment for so long.

So, you know, the question always is, why can't this country just get it together?

- Because the paralyzation has always been something that is gained from political gain.

So, everybody comes for self and never for the country.

Which goes back to the history that when we actually did bind together, when we actually did take to the streets with resilience and determination and fight, we were able to gain what we stand on today.

That we were the first to gain the independence.

But when you have the narrative now that everybody comes in only for self gain, it's an ongoing well, right?

- Yeah.

- So it's, even when we say [Dominique speaking in foreign language] that's an understanding that we have to find a way to gain this independence again.

But when you have in the midst of you people that can continue to taint what the essence of us is, you can't win that way.

- That's a good point, 'cause I think.

You know, a lot of times we see external factors that are coming in for corruption, but there are internal factors unfortunately, that are a huge part of the corruption when we talk about political corruption.

That's been a longstanding thing since Aristide probably, right?

- Absolutely.

- And that was in the 90s.

So if and then- - Or you could even go as back as Jean-Jacques...

I'm sorry, Duvalier.

- Duvalier, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Do you understand?

You can even go as far back as that because he led the country under a regime of dictatorship.

- [Host] Yeah.

- So when you speak of that, the corruption has always been there, but the people always had a spirit of fight.

Now that you have this ongoing corruption, now they're tainting the spirit of the people as well.

And that's why I say that the state of the country does not reflect the country that we know, the country that used to be, and the country that has the potential to be what it always was supposed to be.

- Well, I think what's discouraging for me is seeing people flee and leave because I mean, they're afraid.

- Absolutely, and let's be clear, as students to the craft, I should say, as two of parents of originally, I don't know about you, but I've always heard my parents say, "I came here to build, to gain, to give you your wings, but I will always go home."

So it becomes very sadden when you realize that your parents are unable to go home because let's be honest, home is where it's at.

- [Host] Right.

- Right?

- Right.

And I don't know about your parents or, you know, when they were here with us, but there's a piece of them that seems to be missing.

Right?

- Absolutely.

- Because I think what people don't understand always, and growing up as a child of Haitian immigrants, there's always a pride instilled in me even though I never experienced any of it.

- Absolutely.

- I've never been to Haiti.

Unfortunately.

- You and I both.

- But there was a pride that was passed down because there was this resilience that was just birthed into us.

- [Guest] Absolutely.

- As a result of everything that they were taught and believed to be.

And I think to see a nation crumble as devastatingly as it's crumbling is disheartening, and unfortunately, I don't know that everyone in America or other countries see the resilience because all media has ever portrayed of us is negativity.

- And that's what's extremely disheartening because anytime you have, again, the two of us who have never been to Haiti, but even generations down, I am a mother of six, all of them know their language, they know their foods, they know their culture, they know who they are, they know where their grandparents are from.

Whenever you have that kind of resiliency, whenever you have that kind of seeding, and nurturing, and feeding, it's clear that it is a nation that has plenty to offer, have always had plenty to offer, and continues to seed.

But what's disheartening is that what you're seeing and portraying now, that strength, that resilience, that fight, that love, that beauty is not exposed.

- No.

Well, and unfortunately, we see other cultures that hold on to who they are so tightly and while we are holding on, I don't know that that's a common thing for many Haitians to trickle down Creole, the language, right?

To trickle down the food and the traditions because again, we've been told that we weren't enough so why would you want to carry this down?

- Well, it's just with the colonization.

What happened was we were taught to adapt or adopt, I should say, this culture that wasn't ours.

However, when you speak of the essence of us, that's where that vigilante fight came from.

That's where that justice came from.

So it is still within and I don't know how quickly or how well that we can continue to do this and keep it, but I have extreme hope.

I have extreme faith that it will, because again, here we are, we didn't have to, but we do.

- Yeah, and I keep asking myself the question, what can I do, you know?

And I think a lot of locals, and we'll talk to Daphne a little bit later about what we're locally trying to do to bring unity.

But when we look at recovery aid or aid that's being given to other countries, and I know that there's been aid across the years given to Haiti, it just feels like what else can partnering countries and communities do?

Is there anything that can be done in your opinion?

- I think it starts with home first, and so as you said, we're gonna talk to Daphne soon.

Where there needs to be an understanding, a full education on what we were, what we continue to be, and to keep the heritage alive, to keep our legacy alive.

There is so much as far as that goes far beyond just waving our flag and understanding that as long as we reach one, teach one 'cause teaching is ex extremely important.

So once you are educated on who you are, whose you are, what you are, then you are able to, again, in every place that we are in to see that within community.

Once you have community and you have that linkage, that lock-in, then you are able to spread, and assist, and aid because aid is there.

They just have to believe in us like we believe in us.

- Yeah.

Do you think that there's hope for the people that are there living it?

Not us seeing it, but them living it?

- Absolutely.

You cannot be that resilient through even natural disaster and not- - That's another thing we didn't even touch.

- Right, if you cannot go through all of that and still say or utter that there is no hope.

There is no question in my mind that there is hope, and there will be reform.

- Yeah.

Well, obviously, you know, I stand with you in that hope, and we are here to do all the things that we can do on our side to ensure that Haiti gets the recognition and the attention that it deserves.

And I think that just having this conversation hopefully sheds a little bit of light, or at least piques someone's interest to learn a little bit more about the country and really who we are, not what media has always portrayed us to be.

- Absolutely, I agree.

- [Kenia] Dominique, thank you so much, I appreciate you.

- Thank you, Kenia, I appreciate this.

- Before we move on to those local efforts that we mentioned that are being made here in North Carolina, let's take a look at this week's Melanin Moment and learn a little bit more about Haiti and its historical relevance today.

[upbeat music begins] In the crucible of the colonial exploitation, a spirit of resistance brewed.

Enslaved Haitians, brutalized and oppressed, dared to dream of freedom.

Led by figures like Toussaint Louverture and Jean-Jacques Dessalines, the Haitian Revolution shattered the chains of slavery and birthed a nation.

But freedom came at a price.

In the wake of revolution, Haiti faced immense challenges.

Forced to pay billions of dollars in reparations to France, the young nation struggled to rebuild.

Political instability became a constant companion as rival factions vied for power and foreign interest manipulated Haiti's fate.

Today, Haiti stands at a crossroads, a nation shaped by its tumultuous past.

As Haiti navigates the complexities of the present forging a path towards dignity, justice, and prosperity.

[upbeat music fades] Well, as we continue the conversation in honor of Haitian Heritage Month, we're finding connections that are closer to home than we thought.

There's a significant increase in those reporting Haitian Creole as their first and or preferred language here in the triangle.

As a result of government humanitarian assistant programs in place since the devastating earthquake in 2010 and recent political uncertainty, as well as safety concerns, there are many, many Haitians are seeking refuge within this state of North Carolina.

Our next guest is here to discuss the work that's being done here to aid in supporting the rising numbers, and ensuring that efforts to preserve the culture don't go unnoticed.

Welcome to the show, President of the Carolina Haitian Women's Society, Dafney Tales-Lafortune.

Nice to have you here.

- Thanks for having me.

- So tell us, just start off with, what is Carolina Haitians Women's Society and why did you start it?

- Okay, well, the Carolina Haitian Women's Society is a community based organization that primarily serves Haitian and Haitian American women.

It's an effective platform for us to serve one another, share resources, it's a space of mentorship, pouring into one another, and it's a way us to celebrate each other as women and to maintain our cultural identity while here in the Carolinas, where there aren't that many of us.

- [Kenia] Right, we're growing, though.

- We are growing, we are very much growing.

- I think the number I found the other day was around 4 or 5,000.

- [Dafney] Yeah, just about, from the last census.

It was about that, right?

- Yeah, well, I think in Western North Carolina.

And that was surprising to me.

And I think in the state it was about 11,000.

- [Dafney] Oh, okay.

- [Kenia] Yeah, so we're growing.

- We are growing, and I love that for us.

- [Kenia] Yes.

- And so it's really about establishing that sisterhood connection.

- So when, obviously again, you were born in the States?

- I was born in Massachusetts.

- In Massachusetts, yeah.

So you, too, are parents of both Haitian immigrants.

I don't know about you, but when I came to North Carolina, which I was very young, we had a core circle, but those were my parents' people.

Growing up, I didn't feel like I had the anyone around me besides my cousins that were Haitian that I knew.

Everyone else was of another culture, which I loved, but I longed for connection.

Talk about what connection does to us, and I know that's why you created the organization, but what does that do when we're seeking connection?

- Well, I'll say, through the lens of the Haitian culture and people.

Our connection is like no other.

It is incomparable to other community groups.

No shade to anyone else.

But Haitians, when we find another Haitian, the connection is deep, and resounding, and immediate.

I don't know how to explain it and why that is.

You could be a Haitian American, never have set foot on the island, and someone who was born and raised there.

And you will find that common ground.

And so the connection for us is a shared understanding.

And because of the history of our country and where we come from, it's literally embedded in us.

So when we find that other person, we literally just fuse together.

And for me, I think it's even more profound when it's between women.

And so that's why my primary, my concentration, my focus has always been on women and connecting women to women in our community, - Not to negate our Haitian men.

- I love my brothers, I do.

- But let's talk about the women's role in the past, historically, and how we are kind of the backbone.

- Well, and it's the perfect word, the backbone.

Haitian women in the backbone we're the poto mitan, right?

Which means the central pillar.

And women, when we are empowered, when we are uplifted and galvanized, it automatically, immediately trickles down to everyone else.

The family is cared for because of that, from the children, to our partners, to the community at large, to the village.

So it's, and even in Haiti, you have the Madan Sara.

It's the women who, and again, we're not negating our brothers and the roles that they play, but a lot of the burden, when it comes to the economics of a family, or even a Katye, Katye is the neighborhood in Haiti.

It falls on the shoulders of the woman.

And so when you come here in the States, we may not be dealing with the same concerns or needs as our sisters in Haiti, but the underlying premise is the same.

Like we do shoulder a lot of the, I would say the weight and the responsibility of carrying our community.

And so that's why I'm just so passionate about empowering and enriching us in such a way.

- So share with us, what are some of the ways that you plan on empowering and enriching women, Haitian women here in North Carolina with the society?

- Well, because North Carolina, we're a burgeoning community, but we all, most of us have come from communities where we're used to larger numbers, more cohesion.

- A lot of us come from Boston, New York, Florida.

So here in North Carolina, we are literally charting our own path, if you will.

We're pioneering it.

- Yeah.

- And so we're in the building phase, in the building stages of creating that cohesion.

- Hmm hmm.

- And so with that, you gotta start, I would say you start small but impactful as much as you can, through events, through networking opportunities, through learning about what other people do and how we can pour into one another and help one another and really create literally a network of us, so that's where we have to start.

And that's where we are now and then we can build from there.

- And there have been beautiful collaboration opportunities, right?

So we are part of the society, but then we're also part of another group.

- Oh, yeah.

- Mention Haitians of the Triangle, - That's our sister organization, Haitians of the Triangle.

That's been a fruitful and collaborative partnership.

And our biggest collaboration is actually Haitian Flag Day on May 18.

- Yes.

- And so that's Family Fun Day.

It's in Cary, at Ritter Park.

There's going to be games, live performances, food trucks.

And just overall sense of community.

Months of planning went into this special event.

And it's going to be beautiful.

And let's be clear, people, they don't have to be Haitian.

- Right.

- To attend.

- No, any culture.

- Any culture, as long as you're open to embracing, you know, what we have to offer.

- Oh, yeah.

So real quick, let's touch on legacy, right?

We both have children and even Dominique talked about passing down.

- Yeah.

- Who we are to them.

Why is it so important to teach our children?

- Hmm.

It's so vital.

It's so vital to preserve who we are, our culture for future generations.

- [Kenia] Hmm hmm.

- You can look at other groups, ethnic groups, from Greeks, to the Chinese, to Japanese, and they make a concerted effort to preserve and pass down their culture.

- Yeah.

- And I fear that our resolve in the Haitian community may not be as resolute, if that makes sense.

- Hmm hmm.

- And so for me personally, I'm Haitian American.

English was my first language.

I, of course, I speak Haitian Creole and it's gotten better as I became an adult.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- But if we can start with our kids young, - Right.

- Teaching them our language and they know our food, that's for sure, okay.

And our culture and our history, it's instilling, embedding a sense of pride that secures our legacy for our community.

And so that is definitely one of the central tenets of the organization this year, is to address how do we teach and preserve for our younger generation in a formal way, in an instructive way.

And so that's definitely something that we are working on.

- Yeah, so I know that's next, but what else is next for you?

- Oh, a lot.

- [laughs] A lot.

- What's next for us?

- Busy woman.

- Yeah [laughing].

We are a 501[c][3] organization.

And so we are actively seeking donors who believe in our mission and who can pour into us, contribute to our goals and our initiatives.

And one way we are looking to shift the narrative on our people is taking back control of our images and our narrative.

So with that, we're launching our own magazine.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Fanm Vanyan Magazine, Fanm Vanyan, of course, meaning Women of Impact.

And I'm the most excited about that because it tapped into my journalism background.

But it's going to be a beautiful reflection of who we are, you know, and when you flip through those pages, you'll see how talented and complex and spiritual and human and talented we are.

And I just cannot wait for our little girls and even women our age to see that and just find themselves in that page.

And of course, we're planning, we're gearing up for our annual women's conference, Fanm Vanyan, of course, Women of Impact, and that'll be September 13th and 14th in Charlotte.

So, I mean, we're- - A lot of great things.

- We're trying.

- On the horizon.

That's great.

Thank you so much, Dafney.

- Thank you for having me, I appreciate that.

- Of course.

As Dafney mentioned, it's almost Haitian Flag Day, and if you want to experience our Haitian culture, music, games, conversation and food, Dafney will be there as well with her food truck, Bon Fritay.

Be sure to check us out on May 18th at the Ritter Park in Cary, for this year's Haitian Family Fun Day and celebrate Flag Day with us.

Again, Dafney, thank you for being here.

We thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on PBSnc.org/blackissuesforum, and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.