- All right, folks, we are back.

- Yeah, welcome back.

We're gonna do our podcast episode now.

- We're gonna extend this and let's jump right back into it.

We were talking about, we're gonna talk about a few topics that we were just talking about a second ago, but there was an event that happened here that's kind of a dark stain in Utah's past.

It was about 1973, I wanna say, somewhere around that time.

It was the Hi-Fi murders.

You know, a few Black men went into a Hi-Fi shop and murdered some people, one, well, two in particular.

And it was a big, huge news story.

It was a pretty grizzly thing that happened and it affected the Black community negatively here.

I know when I, when we first got here back in the '80s, my father said it still affects us now because he was being treated differently by white people because they viewed all Black people as these three guys that went in and did this crime.

Could you both speak on that, and how that affected the Black community at the time?

- It did.

I moved here in '75, and so it was still at the height of all of this, and there were still having court cases, and every year on that anniversary.

And so people looked at you differently, treated you differently, and especially Black males had a really challenging time, even things around finding jobs and all of that.

It impacted kind of all aspects of life.

Going into stores, you know, getting followed to steal, or not even warning you in their stores.

- Wow.

- My son was, I had my stepson, when he was 16 or 17 and he got his first car, and they kept pulling him over because he was a Black male.

And it got to the point, I had to call the South Ogden Police Department and threaten them because he could not come through the Washington Terrace.

We lived in the Terrace, Washington Terrace.

He could not come through there without being pulled over, and they couldn't explain why they was pulling him over for no infraction at all.

And so it was a lot of that going on with the Black males during that time.

They just assumed that all Black males were like Pierre, that was the guy's name, one of the guys that did a lot of the murdering in that Hi-Fi, his name was Pierre.

(laughs) - How long did it take for this to settle, and do you know, what would you say maybe finally- - I don't know if it's settled or not.

(Lonzo laughing) You know what I mean.

As you know, there's still things going on with African American all over the United States, but it's the same here as what it's been.

- I know it was 10 years 'cause when we got here, they were still talking about it.

- At least, and when the execution, you know, the last person, the last gentleman.

So throughout all that time, so every year, or every time there was a court case, or a news story, it just brought all of that back up again, and it would take another year for it to kind of settle down a little bit and then it'd be the anniversary again.

So for me, that went on for a very long time, at least 10 or so years.

- [Lonzo] Right, right.

- You would think people would move here and not know anything about it.

Then all of a sudden- - It comes up.

- It comes up and then they find out about it and then it's just, it's just like a cycle.

It just keeps resurrecting itself.

- It was very tense during that time I was here.

'Cause I came in '66, so I was here when that happened and it was very tense.

It was, you know, with the police department.

- [Betty] And there were military, too.

- Uh-huh.

- And so that brought in a whole 'nother, you know because we had this big military presence.

And so, can we trust any of 'em?

These supposed to be here to protect and help us out and all of that.

So it was a lot of dichotomies of how people were responding to this.

- Yeah.

- So let's talk about the business development in Ogden because you know, at that time, in the early days, it was a thriving community.

Must have been a lot of businesses to keep things going 'cause people had to be there.

How's that worked itself out?

- Hardly any now.

You can count the Black businesses on half of your hand that still still exist.

There was a time where there were several beauty shops and barbershops on 25th Street.

Big Apple Record and Tapes was on 25th Street, everything, because we had to create and build our own community.

And we don't have a restaurant or eatery in Ogden anymore.

- [Sarah] No.

- We just lost- - We had two barbers, you know, where we had, Willie Moore had a barbershop there for 62 years.

Smitty, he had a barbershop.

We had all kinds of different things.

That's American Legion Post Number 66 was the place that we did all our socializing.

It was the club.

- [Danor] Oh, okay, the American Legion.

- They opened it up for everything.

Christmas, I was thinking and looking through some old photographs and everyone took their kids to the American Legion during the day on Christmas Eve because they had a big party for the kids.

Mr. Isaac Burton dressed up as Santa Claus.

And they had the place for themselves for a few hours to enjoy, get presents, have a meal, and those things don't happen anymore.

- And also, they was responsible, they worked a lot with the Black youth for Upward Bound.

- [Danor] Oh yeah, I remember that program.

- Who remember Upward Bound?

- [Betty] Upward Bound, Boy State.

- I remember that, yeah.

- And every summer we had a picnic down at the train station, not the train, the train.

You remember the Union Pacific Train that was on 36th and Wall.

- Oh, it was a train that was converted into a restaurant.

Is that what it was?

- No, it was just a train, train set out there, (Sarah laughing) John Athlete Park.

- John Athlete Park, and that was owned by a family called John Affleck.

And they had a lot of convert.

They sold it to 'em and it wasn't never supposed to be sold, but anyway, they used to have a picnic.

- Yeah, there was another family that I heard about, the Kelly family.

But maybe, did we talk about them, the Kelly family?

- He ran, Mr. Willard Kelly ran the American Legion for many, many years, probably over 40 years.

And so his family, he still has family in Ogden.

He and his wife had passed away.

But yeah, he was a commander at the American Legion, and they had the Masonic Lodge as well, and they did a lot of outreach.

- Number 20, lodge Number 20 always did the Easter egg hunt for the kids at the Marshall White Center.

- [Betty] Offered scholarships.

- Yeah, they did a scholarship for the kids, and we don't have that anymore.

I don't know what happened to the Masonics and the Eastern Star.

- People got older.

- My great-grandmother was in the Eastern Star.

- Your grandmother, everybody.

- My great-grandmother was an Eastern Star.

- Oh, she was just talking about people got older, and young folks didn't want to join them.

- Right, right.

Well that, and what are young people that it's like there's no community opportunities like that anymore.

So, do people just stand?

- [Lonzo] They're all on Snapchat.

(laughs) - [Betty] Dan said, "They're in the house."

(all laughing) - And the hand that's going like this.

- Do something.

- Snapchat's not cool anymore according to my daughter.

- I can't keep up with all of them.

- They would always do a function at the Kiwanis Club.

You know where the Kiwanis Club is?

We would always have a big Easter, I mean a New Year's Eve party, and they would cook breakfast for us, the Masonics, and the Masonics and the American Legion folks.

And they don't do that anymore.

- Man, I wish I was living in Ogden back in those days.

Man, it sounds like a good time.

- I just want to get my bald head cut by Willie Moore in his barbershop.

(all laughing) - A young guy that he trained ended up keeping the name Moore's Barbershop, Frankie.

- [Lonzo] Did he?

- Yes, and as a matter of fact, with our Juneteenth program, we decided to honor Mr. Moore and we started the Willie Moore Barber Battle.

And we also honored a barber that was in Salt Lake that was a long standing one.

Did all the jazz players' hair and all of that, Mr. Billy Mason.

And so, we had the Willie Moore and Billy Mason Barber Battle and the ladies got upset, so we had to add a braid competition to it.

(Danor laughing) - And this is all happening on Juneteenth?

- This happens that Sunday at Juneteenth.

- And you're the legend of...

Okay.

- Tell me more.

- Let's go back because we know that you were one of the pioneers of Juneteenth in Ogden, in Utah.

- In the state.

- In Utah.

I try to keep it alive.

- [Lonzo] Okay, so take us back.

How did that start?

How did the battle start to get that here in Utah?

- Some people, a lot of folk from Texas, had moved to Utah, as well, a part of that migration.

And so they brought that with them because as you know, Juneteenth wasn't celebrated in Maryland.

That wasn't for us.

We had Kunta Kinte Day, (Danor and Lonzo laughing) other kinds of things going on.

And so, they brought the celebration here and I went to a Juneteenth, my first Juneteenth celebration at Jordan Park over in West Salt Lake with the NAACP and OIUIC.

And the next year, I was working in the governor's office, Director of Black Affairs, and Lenores Bush said, "Betty, come be on the committee."

So I said, "Okay, I'll come check it out."

And like two weeks before Juneteenth, the committee members that supposed to had reserved the park didn't reserve the park.

- [Lonzo] Oh oh.

- And they had nowhere to have Juneteenth.

They were gonna cancel it.

And I'm like, "How do you cancel Juneteenth?

It's gonna come whether we do anything or not."

And one of my friends was the director of the Marsh White Center, Maurice Boines.

- It's good to know Maurice White.

- White, Maurice White.

- [Danor] Good to know people.

- I called them up, said, "Maurice, we need somewhere to do this Juneteenth," 'cause the Marshal White Center sits on almost five acres of land, and it's a big park.

- Oh nice.

- Next to the building.

And so he says, "Sure, come on up."

And so we went up to Ogden and had a flatbed truck, and made it happen.

And so after that he says, "We need to keep having it in Ogden.

We don't need everything in Salt Lake."

But if you know anything about being in Utah, that rivalry to Salt Lake and Ogden, and being the person that I am, I would do an event in Ogden and Salt Lake.

So we would do Friday in Salt Lake, and then we would go to Ogden on that Saturday and do the celebration.

I did that for about 15 years, doing back and forth, that got old real quick.

And so, then we just left Ogden as the main venue.

And during that time, I also had the opportunity to meet Dr. Ronald Myers who led the national, he's president of the National Juneteenth Foundation.

And so he recruited me to be on the board of the National Juneteenth, and so we continued to make it happen.

It worked to get legislation on a national level to make it a holiday.

We worked on that for about 25 years.

And then kept working.

- You are a national treasure.

- Perseverance, you know.

(laughs) But then worked on getting it as a holiday in Utah, and we tried three times, and the third time was a charm, and now we have a state holiday for Juneteenth.

- [Danor] Nice.

(all clapping) - Thank you.

- Thank you.

Being from Texas, I just greatly appreciate your efforts 'cause I get to continue to celebrate Juneteenth, even living in Utah.

- In Utah, and people don't believe it when I go places, like, "Utah?"

And I, you know, take great pride and don't count us short.

(laughs) We're doing things in Utah.

- [Lonzo] It's a big celebration here.

- It is.

- It really is.

- Growing up as a kid, it was always go out to Ogden, that's where the Juneteenth celebration is popping.

I remember people used to tell me that.

But to know that you were the one who was a pioneer behind that is something special.

- And now we have Juneteenth celebrations all over the place and now everybody wants to do Juneteenth, and we want want 'em all to do it.

And I'm looking for my replacement, so somebody can take this and take it to the next level.

- [Danor] Take the reins, yes.

- You know, and I forgot to ask you, Sarah, is there a, if people are interested in finding more about more about what you're doing, is there somewhere they can go for your coalition to find out more info?

- Well, I'm pretty well known around Ogden, but I don't, you know.

- Well, you know, outside of Ogden, people are interested in contributing, or doing more for- - Yeah, they could do it through me, my name, or either Northern Utah Coalition.

I have been, I started that organization in 1997.

Really '96, and I've been doing it, and my main focus is, at that time HIV was quite prevalent and nobody was doing anything about it.

And a lady named Reverend Shirley Jones was here at that time and we started, we got our first grant to start working with HIV.

And from that, I started the Northern Utah Coalition, and that's what I do and I'm always looking for donations, or volunteers, and I've been doing it since 1997.

And I've just added Hepatitis C 'cause there's a lot of the folks that have hepatitis C do not know they have hepatitis C and there's now a cure for hepatitis C, if you can afford it.

(laughs) And so that's what I do, and I've been doing it for, since '97.

- So being a volunteer would be, would consist of what?

- Well, to work in the office.

I'm always looking for a volunteer 'cause there's always things to do around my office.

I have a office on at 727 24th Street, and there's always help with volunteers.

- [Betty] And your walk, tell them about your walk.

- Oh, my walkathon.

I do a AIDS walkathon, the second week in August.

And we do a AIDS walkathon, and we do it at the park along... - [Betty] MTC Park.

- What's the name of it?

- [Betty] MTC Park.

- MTC Park.

- Is that the Mormon Church Missionary Training?

(Danor and Betty laughing) - [Danor] No, no.

- I don't know.

I mean, that's what I thought.

I'm from Utah.

- [Betty] Management Training Corporation, jobs for people.

- Management Training Corporation.

- (laughs) I have been bugged.

- The funniest thing is, I thought for the longest time, people would say MTC, MTC, and I thought they were saying Mormon Tabernacle Choir, which they don't even call them that anymore.

But they were like, "No, the Missionary Training Center."

I'm like, "It's too many of these things."

I don't wanna... (laughs) - Too many MTCs.

But you know, you know what the great thing about this is?

Is that we're here today discussing Ogden Black history and you two are a big, huge part Of Ogden Black history.

So you are, you know, among the greats in Ogden, so... - 'Cause I have a little museum, Black museum down at the Union Station 'cause the 125th year for the Union Pacific was about two years ago, or three years ago, and so I did, we did a lot with that.

And I do have a little display that you don't have.

(laughs) - [Lonzo] Oh, a display of photos?

- For the red caps, about the workers, because they had to realize that the Black workers is what made the Union Pacific great.

The cooks, the waiters, the red caps, and all of that was part of that.

- [Betty] Stellar service, stellar service, tops.

- And so I, you know, we talked a lot about that.

And also I have a little display down at the Union Pacific Railroad on that.

- I've heard that Black people, we used to be really, really good cooks back in the '30s, '40s.

That's why they made, like when they have the advertisements that showed Uncle Ben's and Aunt Jemima, it's because they wanted, not because they wanted to show off Black folks, it's because they wanted to say, "Hey, this was created by someone who was a really good cook."

And yeah, I heard that.

And the red caps must be like the skycaps for the railroad.

- [Betty] The handlers.

- Okay, so that's where they get that term, the skycap, 'cause at the time it was red caps, then they switched over to sky.

Okay, that makes sense to me.

- You got a picture, I think.

And if not, I got a picture of the red caps.

- Oh, we're on podcast now.

(laughs) - I keep pointing over there and I see myself.

(all laughing) Not me, I wasn't a red cap.

- I enjoyed, I rode the train from Utah to Washington DC once, the Amtrak.

And I'm gonna tell you that is an underrated mode of transportation.

It is so enjoyable riding the train.

So, I mean, it sounds like that was just like a high class experience back then.

- It was, it really was.

And they had different levels depending on how much cash you had, you know, where you were seated and what kind of services you received on the plane.

I mean, on the train.

- Someone was asking me, why did they need a laundry?

You know, where they have the laundry.

We have a building that's just the laundry, been sitting there for years.

And someone wanted to know, what did they do?

I said, all of the workers wore white coats.

If you ever rode the train, all of the tables had white linen cloths on then and white linen napkins.

- [Danor] Mm-hm, white glove service.

(all laughing) - So they was wondering, why did they need a... And then you had sleeper, you could get a sleeper.

- A sleeper car.

- A sleeper car, and they had to do the linen of that because when I came to Utah, that was big business.

That laundry was in full swing.

- [Danor] That's a lot of jobs I assume.

- All right ladies, we're gonna wrap it up, get us outta here, and it was such a pleasure having you on the show, and learned so much, and it was a great experience.

We want thank you both, Sarah McClellan and Betty Sawyer.

- Yes, thank you for who you are and everything you do.

- Thanks for having us.

Thanks.

- Ogden legends.

- Okay, thank you.