Laura: I AM LAURA PASKUS AND LIKE MANY OF YOU I THINK ABOUT THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON OUR STATE AND OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND I TOO FEEL GRIEF WHEN I SEE OUR RIVERS DRY OR OUR FORESTS BURN.

ON THIS MONTH'S EPISODE OF OUR LAND, I SPOKE WITH LARRY RASMUSSEN, PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT UNION THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND FAITH AND FAITH AND MOURNING.

WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THE SCIENCE OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND CULTURAL ISSUES AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE.

I WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU TODAY ABOUT WHERE FAITH FITS INTO CLIMATE ACTIVISM.

Rasmussen: SOMEONE HAS SAID THAT FAITH IS A CITADEL PERCHED AT THE EDGE OF DESPAIR.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS THE CASE WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN REALLY ROUGH PLACES, WHETHER IT IS JUST FOR THEMSELVES PERSONALLY OR IN THEIR FAMILY OR IN THEIR COMMUNITY OR WHETHER IT IS A WHOLE NATION, EVEN A PLANET.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK FAITH IS A KIND OF WAY OF SAYING YES TO LIFE IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING.

I MEAN, WE TALK ABOUT IT THAT WAY.

FAITH IS KIND OF A CREST IN THINGS WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN THAT THEY ARE YET POSSIBLE.

Laura: IN YOUR 2013 BOOK WHICH I REALIZE WE ARE IN 2022 NOW, BUT YOU WROTE IN THIS BOOK THAT AS THE WORLD HAS CHANGED WE MUST LEARN TO SING A NEW SONG IN A STRANGE LAND.

Rasmussen: YEAH.

Laura: WHAT IS THIS STRANGE LAND AND HOW DO WE SING A NEW SONG?

Rasmussen: YEAH, WITH DIFFICULTY.

THE STRANGE LAND IS THAT WE HAVE CHANGED THE PLANET.

AND WHAT IS NOT IN THAT BOOK, EXCEPT TO BE MENTIONED AT THE VERY OUTSET, IS THAT WE HAVE ACTUALLY MOVED INTO A DIFFERENT GEOLOGICAL EPOCH.

I THINK IT IS MASSIVE THAT WE HAVE GONE FROM THE HOLOCENE, WHICH RELIED ON A BALANCED CLIMATE, INTO THE ANTHROPOCENE EPOCH, BUT WE'LL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO MANAGE AND ADAPT CIVILIZATION, IF IT SURVIVES UNDER CONDITIONS OF CLIMATE VOLATILITY RATHER THAN STABILITY AND CLIMATE UNFRIENDLINESS RATHER THAN FRIENDLINESS.

SO, LEARNING TO SING A STRANGE -- A NEW SONG IN A STRANGE LAND, THEN, REQUIRES CERTAINLY CREATIVITY, ADAPTABILITY, RESILIENCE AND PROBABLY SHEER GRIT AND IT IS GOING TO BE IN THE FACE OF SUFFERING ON A SCALE WE HAVE NOT SEEN AS A RESULT OF NATURAL DISASTERS.

Laura: YOU SHARED WITH ME A LETTER THAT YOU WROTE TO YOUR GRANDCHILDREN ABOUT THIS COMING TREND TRANSITION AND YOU WROTE, IF THE TUMULTUOUS WORLD HASN'T STOPPED BEING BEAUTIFUL NEITHER HAS LOVE STOPPED BEING LOVE.

IN THIS WORLD OF HUGE UNCERTAINTY AND TRANSITION, WHAT DOES LOVE, WHAT DOES BEAUTY MATTER?

Rasmussen: A LOT.

I DON'T THINK WE FIND OUR WAY EXCEPT THROUGH THE KIND OF RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE NURTURED BY LOVE AMID THIS CHANGING AND CHANGED PLANET, FIND OUR WAY WITHOUT A SENSE OF WONDER, WITHOUT A SENSE OF BEING ON A JOURNEY WHICH IS MUCH GREATER THAN OUR LITTLE SLICE OF TIME.

Laura: AS AN ENVIRONMENT REPORTER I HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE CONTACT ME TALKING ABOUT OR WRITING ABOUT THEIR ANXIETY AND THEIR DEPRESSION AND THEIR GRIEF AS THEY SEE, YOU KNOW, OUR RIVER DRY, OUR SNOW PACKLESS MOUNTAINS, OUR MOUNTAINS AFTER A FIRE.

ARE THERE LESSONS IN THE FAITH COMMUNITY TO HELP US DEAL WITH THESE LOSSES?

Rasmussen: THERE ARE.

WHETHER AND HOW MUCH WE DRAW UPON THEM WILL VARY A LOT FROM CONGREGATION TO CONGREGATION.

IN PART BECAUSE WE HAVE, ESPECIALLY WHITE FOLK, HAVE SO BENEFITED FROM THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AND WHAT IT BROUGHT THAT WE HARDLY EVEN NOTICED THAT BURNING FOSSIL FUELS WAS DESTROYING THE KIND OF PLANET THAT WAS YIELDING THESE BENEFITS.

SO IT IS HARDER FOR WHITE FOLK TO KNOW THE TRADITIONS OF LAMENT, TO THE TRADITIONS OF LIVING WITH AND THROUGH A APOCALYPSE, TO KNOW THE TRADITIONS OF HAVING TO SING A NEW SONG IN A STRANGE LAND.

SO, I AM TRYING TO SAY, NOT EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE WILL BE TAPPING INTO THESE, BUT NOW ECO LAMENT IS A REALITY FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR PEOPLE, AND THERE ARE TRADITIONS OF ECO LAMENT.

FAITH TRADITIONS HAVE ARISEN ACTUALLY IN THE FACE OF DISASTER AND HAVE CONTINUED TO ADDRESS DISASTER.

JUST AS A FAMILY HAS TO COME TOGETHER, THEY DON'T ALWAYS DO, BUT JUST AS THEY HAVE TO COME TOGETHER IN THE FACE OF TRAGEDY IN THE FAMILY, SO FAITH TRADITIONS HAVE DONE THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE FACE OF TRAGEDY AND DESPAIR AND REASONS FOR LAMENT AND ANXIETY ABOUT THE FUTURE.

SO I THINK YOU TAKE OLD EXPERIENCES, TEXTS, COMMUNITIES THAT IT IS COUNTERINTUITIVE THAT IN A NO ANALOGUE WORLD YOU WOULD BE LOOKING FOR ANCIENT WISDOM BUT ANYTHING -- ANY HUMAN COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A MILLENNIA, LIKE FAITH COMMUNITIES HAVE, HAS ACCUMULATED A LOT OF WISDOM AND NEEDS TO BE REVISED, NEEDS TO BE ADAPTED, SOMETHING NEW NEEDS TO BE CREATED, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, BUT THE RESOURCES ARE THERE, THE EXPERIENCES ARE THERE.

Laura: YOU ALSO WRITE IN YOUR 2013 BOOK, OR YOU ASK, WHERE DO WE TURN WHEN WE DISCOVER THAT THE RELIGION WE HAVE LIVED BY SINCE THE INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGICAL ERA EMERGED, ETERNAL AND EXPONENTIAL ECONOMIC GROWTH IS AN ILLUSION, DOGMA MASQUERADING AS COMMON SENSE AND KEPT ALIVE BY WILLPOWER AND LITTLE ELSE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

BUT I WILLS WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ROLE THAT WHITE SUPREMACY HAS PLAYED IN FAITH AND IN CAUSING CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND WHERE THOSE INTERSECT AND HOW WE PULL THEM APART FOR A DIFFERENT WORLD.

Rasmussen: YEAH.

WELL, LET ME START WITH THE LATTER POINT.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS A RESULT OF THE INSTITUTIONS THAT AROSE OUT OF THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AND THAT WENT GLOBAL BY WAY OF CONQUEST AND COLONIZATION.

GIVEN THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, THE FORM THAT THAT TOOK, WAS ONE WHICH NOW HAS BROUGHT US TO PLANET SYSTEM CHANGE, CHANGING THE SYSTEMS, PLANETARY SYSTEMS THEMSELVES, AND IT IS WE WHO ARE WHITE WHO ARE MOST DEEPLY EMERSED IN WHAT WE BENEFITED FROM THAT.

ONE THING THAT IS HAPPENING IN THEOLOGY IS A KIND OF DECOLONIZATION OF THEOLOGY THAT HAS BEEN WHITE AND IN A UNIVERSAL VOICE.

SO YOU GET BLACK THEOLOGY.

YOU GET FEMINIST THEOLOGY.

YOU GET LATINA THEOLOGY, WOMANIST THEOLOGY OUT OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.

YOU GET QUEER THEOLOGY AND THAT KIND OF DECOLONIZATION HAS TO HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THE POWER OF WHITE INSTITUTIONS IN FORGING THE MODERN WORLD.

SO UNDOING WHITE PRIVILEGE, UNDOING WHITE SUPREMACY IS ESSENTIAL TO MAKING THE TRANSITION TO SUSTAINABLE LIFE ON OTHER TERMS THAN THAT.

AND THAT IS MASSIVE.

Laura: WELL, THANK YOU, LARRY, FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

Rasmussen: YES, THANK YOU.