>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, THE GOVERNOR DROPS A MATCH ON THE FIRE-READY NATIONAL DEBATE OVER GUNS, BUT A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS BLOCKED HER TEMPORARY BAN ON CARRYING FIREARMS IN PUBLIC IN THE STATE'S LARGEST CITY.

>> Gov.

Lujan-Grisham: I HAVE TO TAKE A TOUGH DIRECT STAND, OR BASICALLY I'M JUST IGNORING THE FACT THAT WE LOST AN 11-YEAR-OLD.

ANOTHER CHILD.

>> Lou: AND, A MEDICAL BILL CHECKUP.

A NEW REPORT FINDS THAT LESS THAN HALF OF HOSPITALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE COMPLIANT WITH A FEDERAL PRICE TRANSPARENCY RULE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW >> Lou: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

TWO YEARS AGO, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ENACTED A LAW REQUIRING HOSPITALS TO BE MORE UPFRONT ABOUT THE COSTS OF THEIR MEDICAL SERVICES.

ACCORDING TO A REPORT RELEASED THIS SUMMER BY A NON-PROFIT ADVOCACY GROUP, ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF HOSPITALS ACROSS THE U.S. ARE COMPLIANT.

IN JUST UNDER 20 MINUTES, I SIT DOWN WITH PATIENT RIGHTS ADVOCATE CEO CYNTHIA FISHER TO DISCUSS HOW NEW MEXICO HOSPITALS FARE COMPARE TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

OUR MAIN STORY CONCERNS THE GOVERNOR'S RECENT PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER SUSPENDING THE RIGHT TO CARRY FIREARMS IN PUBLIC SPACES IN BERNALILLO COUNTY FOR 30 DAYS.

THE ORDER CAME TWO DAYS AFTER WHAT POLICE CALLED A ROAD RAGE SHOOTING IN ALBUQUERQUE THAT KILLED AN 11-YEAR-OLD BOY AND SEVERELY INJURED A WOMAN IN HER TWENTIES.

U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE DAVID URIAS HAS BLOCKED PART OF THE ORDER, SIDING WITH GUN OWNERS WHO SAY THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED.

BUT THERE'S STILL PLENTY TO TALK ABOUT.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SPEAKS WITH A SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S MOVE.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW, THE PANEL WILL ADDRESS HER PLEAS TO THE FEDS FOR HELP, AND HOW THE REST OF THE ORDER TAKES AIM AT MORE THAN JUST GUNS.

BUT FIRST, THE GROUP CONSIDERS THE PIECE THAT'S DOMINATING THE HEADLINES, GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM'S ATTEMPT TO UNILATERALLY STOP PEOPLE FROM CARRYING GUNS IN PUBLIC IN BERNALILLO COUNTY.

HERE'S JEFF.

>> Jeff: THANKS LOU.

I CAN'T REMEMBER MANY STORIES THAT HAVE SUCKED UP MORE OXYGEN OR PROVOKED MORE HEATED RESPONSES THAN THE GOVERNOR'S ANNOUNCEMENT LAST WEEK.

IT'S ALL ANYONE CAN TALK ABOUT, AND WE WANT TO DEVOTE A LARGE PORTION OF OUR SHOW TO SORT THROUGH THE RAMIFICATIONS AND WHERE THINGS MIGHT GO FROM HERE.

JOINING ME AT THE TABLE THIS WEEK ARE APD SERGEANT-TURNED ATTORNEY TOM GROVER.

THEN ACROSS THE TABLE, LONG-TIME CIVIL RIGHTS AND DEFENSE LAWYER FRANK DAVIS.

BY WAY OF DISCLOSURE, FRANK REPRESENTED ME ONCE IN A SUCCESSFUL FIGHT FOR PUBLIC RECORDS.

AND I'M PLEASED TO HAVE MARISA DEMARCO, A FOREVER NEW MEXICO REPORTER WHO, LIKE ME, HAS COVERED A LOT OF THE ISSUES WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS TONIGHT.

MARISA IS A NATIONAL EDITOR FOR STATES NEWSROOM THESE DAYS.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

WE'RE GOING TO SPEND PLENTY OF TIME ON THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER AND THE FALLOUT FROM IT, BUT WE WANT TO GET QUICKLY TO THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

JUDGE URIAS HAS GRANTED GUN OWNERS' REQUEST FOR A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER, SAYING THEY HAVE "A SUBSTANTIAL LIKELIHOOD" OF PREVAILING IF THE CASE PROCEEDS.

FRANK, LET'S START WITH YOU.

WHAT DOES THE JUDGE'S ORDER MEAN?

>> Davis: THE JUDGE'S ORDER MEANS THAT THIS ORDER LIKELY VIOLATES THE SECOND AMENDMENT AND IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MOST EVERYONE IS GOING TO AGREE UPON.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS INTENDED TO PROTECT THE INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE, AND WE START WITH THE PRESUMPTION THAT IF THE CONDUCT IS COVERED BY THE TEXT OF AN AMENDMENT, WHICH HERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CARRYING IN A PUBLIC PLACE, THAT THE CONDUCT IS CONSTITUTIONAL, AND I THINK THAT PRETTY WELL DOES AWAY WITH THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL PORTION OF THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER.

>> Jeff: DID IT COME AS A SURPRISE TO ANYBODY, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THAT THIS WENT THE WAY THAT IT WENT?

>> Davis: SHOCKINGLY TO ME, THERE ARE A GOOD NUMBER OF LAWYERS WHO WERE SUPPORTIVE OF THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER, AND THESE ARE FOLKS THAT I, MYSELF, I LOOK UP TO, AND I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOOD LAWYERS AND THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS A LOT LONGER THAN ME.

BUT WHAT THE SENTIMENT HAS BEEN IS THAT FINALLY SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE REALISTICALLY BELIEVED THAT IT WOULD WITHSTAND ANY SORT OF CONSTITUTIONAL SCRUTINY.

>> Jeff: TOM, I'LL KICK THIS TO YOU, TOO.

OBVIOUSLY THE JUDGE'S ORDER IS GRANTING A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER.

IT'S NOT A BROAD RULING IN THE CASE, IT'S PRETTY NARROW.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WAS THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER JUST A STRAIGHT UP VIOLATION OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT?

>> Grover: I THINK ASPECTS OF IT CLEARLY WERE.

I MEAN, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

IT PUT IN PLACE RESTRICTIONS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ADJUDICATED BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT THE BRUEN CASE, OBVIOUSLY, AND THAT'S IN THE SETTING OF MANHATTAN.

WELL, HERE WE ARE IN THE SOUTHWEST WHERE, LIKE IT OR NOT, GUNS ARE A PART OF THE CULTURE HERE AND THE HISTORY.

AND WITH WHAT SHE DID WITH HER ORDER, IT WAS SUCH OVERREACH, IT'S NOT SURPRISING WHAT HAPPENED.

>> Jeff: LET'S PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT HERE AND TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEM THE GOVERNOR SAYS SHE'S TRYING TO FIX.

WE SAW 120 HOMICIDES IN THIS CITY LAST YEAR.

THAT'S A RECORD BY A LOT.

MAYOR TIM KELLER SAYS THE NUMBERS ARE LEVELING OFF A BIT THIS YEAR, BUT WE ARE STILL WAY ABOVE NATIONAL AVERAGES FOR VIOLENT CRIME.

I THINK EVERYONE WHO LIVES HERE WOULD AGREE THAT THE VIBE IN OUR CITY FEELS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN IT USED TO FIVE YEARS AGO, CERTAINLY TEN YEARS AGO.

AND OF COURSE, THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER CITES THE SHOOTING DEATHS OF TWO YOUNG CHILDREN.

TOM, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU.

YOU'RE A FORMER COP.

WHAT SITS UNDER THE CRIME PROBLEM HERE, AND DO THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSALS PRESENT A VIABLE SOLUTION FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> Grover: I THINK THEY'RE MISGUIDED, AT BEST, BECAUSE WHAT I SEE -- AND THIS IS BASED OFF OF HAVING BEEN A STREET COP FOR EIGHT YEARS IN BAD SECTIONS OF THE CITY, AND NOW HAVING BEEN AN ATTORNEY FOR ALMOST TEN YEARS -- IS THAT THINGS ARE BAD AND THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE, AND WITH THE POLICE WITHDRAWING BACK COURTESY OF THE NEW MAYOR BACK IN 2018 AND DOJ REFORM, THERE'S BEEN REALLY LIKE A LACK OF GUARDRAILS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE WATCHING A SOCCER GAME WHEN YOU'VE GOT WEAK OFFICIATING.

IT DOESN'T TAKE TOO LONG FOR THE KIDS TO START TO REALLY GET OUT OF CONTROL AND PEOPLE GET INJURED, BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THEY CAN TAKE ACTIONS AND THERE'S NO REPERCUSSIONS.

AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND THERE ISN'T ANYTHING IN THE ORDER THAT SUGGESTS THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY SORT OF REINFORCEMENT OF THE GUARDRAILS TO PUT PEOPLE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY RECOGNIZE THAT IF I DO SOMETHING WRONG, CHANCES ARE I'M GOING TO GET STOPPED OR HAVE SOME CONTACT WITH SOMEBODY WHO I DON'T WANT TO HAVE CONTACT WITH, THAT BEING LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> Demarco: I'LL JUMP IN AND SAY, TOO, THAT GUNS HAVE BEEN -- VIOLENCE AND GUN VIOLENCE HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IN ALBUQUERQUE AND IN NEW MEXICO FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND WE HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN OVERALL, IF YOU'RE PULLING WAY BACK AND LOOKING AT THE SCALE, WE'VE STARTED TO SEE DECLINES IN THOSE THINGS.

AND ALL THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC PEOPLE WERE TELLING US THAT WE WERE GOING TO SEE MORE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, MORE SUBSTANCE USE, THAT SORT OF THING, BECAUSE OF THE IMPACTS OF ISOLATION, AND THAT THAT WOULD HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE CITY FOR YEARS AND YEARS TO COME.

SO I WONDER IF WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME OF THE IMPACTS OF THAT.

ALSO, I WILL SAY ABOUT THE HEARING YESTERDAY, WHAT I WAS READING IN SOURCE NEW MEXICO'S REPORTING, IS THAT THE JUDGE SEEMS TO BE GIVING THE STATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE THAT WE'RE IN AN ESPECIALLY ACUTE PHASE OF A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY, RIGHT, AND THAT THAT COULD POTENTIALLY JUSTIFY THE ORDER, IS WHAT THE CONVERSATION IN THE COURTROOM SEEMED TO BE POINTING AT YESTERDAY.

ALSO, THE JUDGE WAS POINTING OUT THAT -- THE BACK-AND-FORTH BETWEEN THE JUDGE AND THE ATTORNEYS WAS AROUND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER DURING THE PANDEMIC ABOUT GATHERING IN PUBLIC PLACES, AND THIS WAS BECAUSE COVID, A DEADLY VIRUS, COULD IMMEDIATELY BE PASSED TO ONE ANOTHER FROM THOSE GATHERINGS, AND THE QUESTION IS, DOES SIMPLY HAVING GUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD OF GUN VIOLENCE?

THAT SEEMED TO BE AT THE CRUX OF THE CONVERSATION IN COURT.

>> Jeff: FOR SURE.

AND I WANT TO STICK WITH YOU FOR A MINUTE, TOO, AND TALK ABOUT BASED ON YOUR YEARS OF REPORTING HERE, TOO, COULD THE GOVERNOR AND ALL OF THIS ENERGY FROM THE GOVERNOR, HAVE BEEN BETTER SPENT FOCUSING ON THE THINGS THAT YOU AND I HAVE BOTH BEEN REPORTING ON FOR ALL OF THESE YEARS THAT SIT UNDER THE CRIME, WHETHER THAT'S SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER, POVERTY.

THERE ARE A MILLION FACTORS THAT WE ALL KNOW.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE HER ENERGY COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SPENT TO FOCUS ON SOME OF THOSE THINGS INSTEAD OF PICKING THIS BIG FIGHT WITH THE SECOND AMENDMENT?

>> Demarco: YOU KNOW, WHAT STUCK OUT TO ME WAS THAT THIS WAS A PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER, BUT THESE ARE NOT NECESSARILY WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS WOULD RECOMMEND AS SOLUTIONS, RIGHT?

SO PUBLIC HEALTH IS ABOUT LOOKING AT THE OVERALL HEALTH, THE BIG STATISTICS.

THIS STRUCK ME AS SOMEWHAT OF A KNEE-JERK REACTION THAT RELIES HEAVILY ON INCREASED LAW ENFORCEMENT, WHETHER THAT'S FOR GUNS OR FOR OTHER THINGS, AND SO IT'S A PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER IN KIND OF NAME ONLY IN THAT WAY.

>> Jeff: SO THE GOVERNOR CONCEDED AT HER NEWS CONFERENCE LAST WEEK THAT SHE WASN'T SURE HOW THIS WAS GOING TO PLAY OUT IN COURT, AND NOW SHE'S LOST THE FIRST ROUND.

BUT ALMOST FROM THE BEGINNING, SHE'S HINTED THAT HER GAIN GOAL IS TO KICKSTART A DEBATE ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE.

>> Gov.

Lujan-Grisham: I'M DOING IT BECAUSE I THINK THAT DEBATE, AND GETTING INTO THE SESSION ABOUT WHAT DOES NEED TO WORK, IS APPROPRIATE.

AND IF NOT ME, THEN WHO IS GOING TO INITIATE THE DEBATE?

>> Jeff: IF THIS ORDER WAS MEANT TO BE A CONVERSATION STARTER, OR TO SPUR THE LEGISLATURE TO PASS STRICTER GUN LAWS, WAS A BIG EXECUTIVE ORDER THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT?

I'LL LET ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO TAKE A SWING AT THIS ONE TO GO FOR IT, BUT HAS THAT MESSAGE BEEN OVERWHELMED BY WHAT MOST FOLKS SEE AS A MASSIVE GOVERNMENT OVERREACH?

>> Davis: THE CONVERSATIONS HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN IGNITED, SO I CAN'T CALL IT A FAILURE IN THAT REGARD.

>> Lou: RIGHT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> Davis: RIGHT, AND EVERYONE IS.

YOU HAVE EVERYONE FROM ELON MUSK CALLING FOR HER REMOVAL FROM OFFICE ALL THE WAY TO REPORTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY USING WORDS LIKE TYRANNY, DESPOT, THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO THE CONTROVERSY HAS SUCCEEDED IN IGNITING A DISCUSSION, AND I THINK THAT ALL OF US CAN AGREE THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF AN EMERGENCY GOING ON WITH THE WAY THAT WE'RE LOSING LIVES TO GUN VIOLENCE.

HOW WE GO ABOUT DEALING WITH THAT I THINK IS WHERE WE'RE GOING TO REACH DISAGREEMENT.

>> Jeff: DOES ANYBODY THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SETTLE INTO, EVENTUALLY, THE CONVERSATION THAT THE GOVERNOR WANTS HERE, WHICH IS ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE?

ARE WE GOING TO GET PAST THIS INITIAL SHOCK AND OUTRAGE AND MEMES ALL OVER TWITTER OF HER WITH A HAMMER AND SICKLE SITTING BENEATH HER FACE?

>> Davis: I THINK SHE'S ANIMATED A PORTION OF THE DEMOGRAPHIC OUT THERE THAT HAS BEEN ON THE SIDELINES, BUT NOW IS ACTIVELY OPPOSED TO HER.

I MEAN, I DON'T SEE A SILVER LINING TO WHAT SHE'S DONE, BECAUSE SHE'S ALIENATED HERSELF WITH PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T PREVIOUSLY ALIENATED FROM HER.

SURE, SHE MIGHT HAVE CONSOLIDATED SOME SUPPORT AMONG PEOPLE THAT ALREADY HAD A POSTURE WHEN IT COMES TO GUN CONTROL, BUT IN TERMS OF WHERE THINGS GO IN THE LONG GAME, I DON'T SEE HOW THIS IS A BENEFIT, BECAUSE THE WHOLE ISSUE OF CRIME HAS BEEN PUSHED OFF TO THE SIDE AND THE PROJECTION HAS BEEN PUT UPON HER FOR, YOU KNOW, DICTATORIAL POWERS OR TYRANT OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO I THINK IT SORT OF AMBUSHED WHATEVER BENEFIT COULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT FROM IT OR FROM HER OFFICE.

>> Demarco: I THINK THE CONVERSATION HAS SO LARGELY FOCUSED ON THE SECOND AMENDMENT, AND THAT HAS SUBSUMED KIND OF THE CONVERSATION ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT OCCURS TO ME IS, SHE HAD TO HAVE KNOWN THAT THAT WAS WHERE THIS WAS GOING TO GO, AT LEAST IN THE EARLY DAYS, AND SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS THE NEXT MOVE IN THIS CONVERSATION, OR WHAT IS REALLY BEING ANGLED AT, RIGHT.

THIS MOVE KIND OF FEEDS INTO THAT FAR RIGHT PARANOID NIGHTMARE ABOUT DICTATORIAL CONTROL AND THE GOVERNMENT IS COMING FOR YOUR GUNS, RIGHT, AND SO I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT IS THAT WE WON'T END UP STUCK THERE IN THAT CONVERSATION, AS OPPOSED TO HAVING THE ONE THAT EVERYBODY'S ANGLING TO HAVE ABOUT GUN DEATH RATES AND GUN VIOLENCE IN NEW MEXICO.

>> Davis: I HAVE TO DISAGREE JUST A LITTLE BIT WITH THE COMMENTS OF MARISA, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE IS A SIGH OF RELIEF FROM SOME PEOPLE THAT FINALLY SOMEBODY IS DOING SOMETHING.

WE'VE SEEN MASS SHOOTING AFTER MASS SHOOTING, WE'VE SEEN KILLING AFTER KILLING, VIOLENCE THROUGHOUT OUR STATE, AND NOW IT JUST FEELS LIKE, OKAY, NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE IN EACH OF THOSE INSTANCES, WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S ACCURATE.

BUT NOW THE GOVERNOR HAS DONE SOMETHING.

BUT I THINK SHE'S CREATED A RESPONSIBILITY AND AN ONUS FOR HERSELF TO KEEP THIS GOING.

SHE CAN'T JUST THROW UP HER HANDS AND SAY, OH, I TRIED AND THE COURT STRUCK ME DOWN.

SHE HAS TO BE MORE CREATIVE.

SHE HAS TO BE MORE THOUGHTFUL.

THIS ORDER DOESN'T SEEM THAT THOUGHTFUL AND IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE SHE PUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO CRAFTING SOMETHING THAT WAS GOING TO BE CONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT IF SHE GOES FORWARD AND SHE TRIES TO COME UP WITH SOME SOLUTION THAT IS CREATIVE AND THOUGHTFUL AND HAS SOME BRAIN POWER BEHIND IT, WE COULD SEE A CHANGE FINALLY ON THIS GUN VIOLENCE ISSUE.

>> Demarco: THE THING IS THAT WE JUST HAVEN'T SEEN THAT YET, AND MAYBE THIS IS A MEDIA COVERAGE CRITICISM, RIGHT, WHICH, YOU KNOW, MEMBER OF THE MEDIA OVER HERE.

BUT WE'VE SEEN PRIMARILY, EVEN FROM MEMBERS OF HER OWN PARTY, EVERYBODY HAS CRITICISM OF THIS MOVE LARGELY BASED ON THE FIRESTORM IT IGNITED ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

I HAVEN'T SEEN IN MUCH COVERAGE PEOPLE WHO -- EVEN JUST EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE LIKE, WELL, THANK GOODNESS, WE NEEDED SOMETHING.

EVEN IF IT ONLY STOOD FOR, WHAT WAS IT, FIVE DAYS?

I DON'T KNOW IF IT GOT A WEEK, RIGHT.

>> Jeff: NOT QUITE A WEEK.

>> Demarco: NOT QUITE A WEEK, RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, WE NEEDED SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT IN THE MEDIA COVERAGE JUST YET, SO I GUESS MY COMMENTS ARE MORE FOCUSED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, WHICH IS EVEN MEMBERS OF HER OWN PARTY SPEAKING AGAINST IT.

VERY FEW PEOPLE BEING WILLING TO TAKE A PUBLIC STAND THAT THEY'RE IN SUPPORT OF THIS MOVE.

>> Jeff: SHE WAS LIKE MIRANDA VISCOLI, RIGHT.

THAT WAS ONE NAME THAT IMMEDIATELY CAME TO MY MIND.

I WANT TO REWIND THE TAPE A LITTLE BIT TO LAST WEEKEND.

WE ALL SAW IMAGES OF GUYS WITH BEARDS AND LONG GUNS PROTESTING ON THE OLD TOWN PLAZA LAST WEEKEND.

MARISA, YOU WERE THERE.

I WANT YOU TO TELL ME, PLEASE, WHAT THAT FELT LIKE.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE DOWN THERE?

>> Demarco: PEOPLE WERE OUTRAGED.

PEOPLE WERE HEAVILY ARMED.

THERE WAS A NOTABLE LACK OF VISIBILITY POLICE PRESENCE.

I COVERED, I THINK, ALL OF OR MOST OF THE PROTESTS IN 2020 IN WHICH THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE OUT SPEAKING AGAINST GUN VIOLENCE AND THEY WERE UNARMED, AND THERE WAS A HEAVY POLICE PRESENCE EVEN AT THINGS LIKE CANDLELIGHT VIGILS AND SUCH.

IT WAS SMALLER, MAYBE A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE, 300, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT THERE WAS NOT PEOPLE THERE, THERE WAS NOT STATE POLICE OFFICERS THERE THAT WERE VISIBLE WHO WERE ENFORCING THIS ORDER, RIGHT, WHICH WAS ALREADY IN EFFECT.

AND WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE WITH, YOU KNOW, REALLY HEAVY WEAPONRY, LIKE INTENTIONALLY CARRYING IT IN A VERY VISIBLE AND INTENTIONAL WAY.

>> Jeff: YOU WERE TELLING ME THAT THINGS WERE PRETTY TENSE, BASED ON OUR CONVERSATION IN ADVANCE OF TAPING TODAY.

>> Demarco: YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK EVEN AMONG THE SPEAKERS, THERE WERE WARNINGS LIKE, KEEP IT COOL, EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THAT'S A LOT OF FIREPOWER TO HAVE IN ONE PLACE, AND WHAT DOES IT TAKE FOR THAT TO TURN INTO SOMETHING REALLY BAD AND VIOLENT, RIGHT, WHICH WAS INTERESTING, BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE AROUND SPEAKING TO WHAT THE GOVERNOR'S SPEAKING TO A LITTLE BIT, AS WELL, WHICH IS LIKE, HOW MANY HIGH-POWERED GUNS DOES IT TAKE IN A SMALL AREA FOR SOMETHING TO TURN INTO VIOLENCE.

BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF SPEAKING ABOUT, OKAY, WE'RE HERE TO BE PASSIONATE, BUT COOL, LET'S KEEP IT COOL, AND THERE WAS NOT ANY VIOLENCE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE SCENARIO WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT HAD THE POLICE SHOWN UP AND ISSUED CITATIONS FOR BEING IN VIOLATION OF THE ORDER.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE IN OLD TOWN UNDER THE GAZEBO.

TOURISTS ARE WANDERING AROUND THE PERIMETER, AND THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, LIKE MASSIVE GUNS, SO IT WAS AN INTERESTING SCENE, TO SAY THE LEAST.

>> Jeff: ONE MORE THING I WANT TO GET TO IT, AND TOM, I WANT TO START WITH YOU ON THIS ONE.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT ARGUMENT WILL CONTINUE TO PLAY OUT IN THE FEDERAL COURTS BEYOND THE TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER THAT JUDGE URIAS GRANTED EARLIER THIS WEEK, BUT IS THERE A BIGGER LEGAL CONVERSATION HERE?

IS THERE A CASE, POTENTIALLY, THAT WINDS UP IN FRONT OF THE STATE SUPREME COURT IN WHICH WE FINALLY GET TO SORT OUT THE LIMITS OF EXECUTIVE POWER?

>> Grover: UNDOUBTEDLY I THINK IT'S HEADED THAT WAY.

BUT I WANT TO REMARK ON ONE THING ON THE PROTESTS ON SUNDAY.

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, I REPRESENTED A YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN THAT WENT TO CIVIC PLAZA DECKED OUT IN THE SAME SORT OF PARAMILITARY ATTIRE THAT THOSE PROTESTORS WERE WEARING ON SUNDAY WITH, YOU KNOW, A .223 AR VARIANT RIFLE, AND HE WASN'T OUT ON THE SIDEWALK ADJACENT TO CIVIC PLAZA FOR MAYBE FIVE MINUTES BEFORE APD'S EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAM CAME DOWN, MADE CONTACT WITH HIM, AND THEY PULLED HIM ASIDE, AND THEN THERE WAS THIS BIG KERFUFFLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS GOING TO BE CITED OR NOT.

APD DID A SOCIAL MEDIA POST, SAYING HE HAD BEEN DETAINED AND WAS GOING TO BE CITED.

LONG STORY SHORT, THE CITY ENDED UP PAYING MY CLIENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR THAT.

>> Jeff: AND WE'LL GET TO SOME OF THAT IN THE SECOND SEGMENT FOR SURE, BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EXECUTIVE POWER THING.

SORRY TO PUSH YOU BACK ON TRACK.

>> Grover: NO, I THINK IT'S HEADED THAT WAY IF THE REPUBLICANS CERTAINLY GET THEIR WAY, AND I THINK WITH THE TYPE OF COUNSEL THAT WERE IN COURT YESTERDAY, THERE IS A FAIR AMOUNT OF BROAD SPECTRUM INTEREST IN THIS ISSUE THAT'S NOT LIMITED JUST TO DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS, CONSERVATIVES OR LIBERALS, ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS WHEN THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE TAKES AN ACTION THAT'S IN CONTRAVENTION TO THE CONSTITUTION, WHETHER IT'S STATE OR FEDERAL.

WE SAW A LOT OF PEOPLE UPSET ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNOR HAD DONE DURING THE PANDEMIC, AND I THINK THIS IS SORT OF AN EXTENSION OF THAT, AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO GO BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT IN ONE WAY OR FASHION.

AND WE KNOW HOW IT PLAYED OUT THE LAST TIME IT WAS BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT AND THEY WENT 5-0 AGAINST HER.

>> Jeff: FRANK, I WANT YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS ONE, TOO.

DO WE NEED AN ACTUAL BETTER DEFINITION FOR WHAT CONSTITUTES A PUBLIC EMERGENCY IN THIS STATE?

DO WE NEED THAT SPELLED OUT?

>> Davis: I THINK IT'S ON THE WAY.

I HAVE A GOOD WORD THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS FILING A CASE IN STATE COURT THIS WEEK THAT'S GOING TO SEEK TO CONFINE WHAT THESE PUBLIC EMERGENCIES, PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCIES MEAN.

WHETHER WE NEED IT OR NOT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

I MEAN, THERE'S REALLY BEEN LIMITED USE AND IT AROSE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE PANDEMIC, WHICH OF COURSE WAS A WORLDWIDE ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME SORT OF PHENOMENON, BUT NOW WE HAVE IT REARING ITS HEAD AGAIN.

AND THAT WAS MY INITIAL CONCERN WHEN THE GOVERNOR FIRST USED THIS EMERGENCY POWER, WAS WE'RE GOING TO SEE ANOTHER EMERGENCY, RIGHT.

THAT'S SORT OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE A POLITICIAN THESE SORT OF POWERS.

SO PROBABLY WE COULD BENEFIT FROM SOME SORT OF DEFINITION OR SOME INSTRUCTION FROM THE COURT, SO I THINK THAT IS NECESSARY.

>> Jeff: AND THAT WAY WE'RE NOT GUESSING.

WE'LL HAVE TO STOP THE FIRST CONVERSATION THERE.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING A PART OF THIS.

BUT WE AREN'T DONE.

WE'LL MEET BACK HERE AT THE TABLE IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES TO TALK OVER THE REST OF WHAT WAS INCLUDED IN THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER AND WHAT COULD COME OF IT, LIKE THE SUSPENSION OF THE JUVENILE DETENTION ALTERNATIVE INITIATIVE.

>> Gov.

Lujan-Grisham: WELL WE'RE REALLY WORKING HARD, AND WE SHOULD, TO REDIRECT A YOUNG PERSON'S LIFE OUT OF CRIME AND INTO A RESPONSIBLE ENVIRONMENT.

WE WANT OUR KIDDOS TO GRADUATE FROM SCHOOL, WE WANT THEM TO BE SAFE, WE WANT THEM TO BE GOOD COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

BUT WHEN ONE OF THESE OFFICERS IS INVOLVED IN A GUN VIOLENT SITUATION AND WE HAVE A 12 OR A 13 OR A 14-YEAR-OLD WITH A FIREARM, THE NOTION THAT THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY HERE MUST END UNTIL WE CAN FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT HAS GONE WRONG, AND WHAT WE CAN DO BETTER.

>> Lou: JEFF'S SECOND ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION WITH THE PANEL IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

ONLY FIVE OF 14 HOSPITALS IN NEW MEXICO ARE COMPLIANT WITH A 2021 FEDERAL RULE ON PRICE TRANSPARENCY.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO A JULY REPORT FROM THE NON-PROFIT PATIENT RIGHTS ADVOCATE.

THE RULE REQUIRES HOSPITALS TO POST FIVE DIFFERENT STANDARD CHARGES FOR COMMON MEDICAL PROCEDURES THAT THEY OFFER.

HOSPITALS MUST ALSO PROVIDE PATIENTS WITH A TOOL TO BROWSE AT LEAST 300 SHOPPABLE PROCEDURES.

IT'S A COMPLEX ISSUE.

SO THIS WEEK, I CAUGHT UP WITH THE FOUNDER, CHAIR AND CEO OF THE GROUP, CYNTHIA FISHER, TO LEARN HOW ACCESS TO THESE PRICES CAN GIVE PATIENTS MORE POWER OVER THEIR CARE.

>> Lou: CYNTHIA FISHER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME TODAY ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

>> Fisher: MY PLEASURE.

>> Lou: NOW, YOUR GROUP ISSUED A REPORT THIS SUMMER LISTING THE NUMBER OF HOSPITALS THAT AREN'T COMPLYING WITH THE FEDERAL HOSPITAL PRICE TRANSPARENCY RULE.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT AND WHAT YOUR REPORT FOUND, CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RULE ITSELF, WHAT IT REQUIRES, AND WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE FOR PATIENTS?

>> Fisher: YES.

HOSPITAL PRICE TRANSPARENCY AND THE RULE FOR ALL PRICES TO BE SHOWN BY ALL HOSPITALS WHEREVER WE GET CARE IS TRULY TRANSFORMATIVE.

WHY?

BECAUSE IT SHIFTS POWER TO THE PATIENTS TO KNOW PRICES UP FRONT, AND TO HAVE PRICES WHEN WE GET OUR MEDICAL BILLS TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT OVERCHARGED.

PRICE TRANSPARENCY SHIFTS POWER TO THE PATIENT TO LOWER THE COST OF HEALTH CARE BY MAKING SURE WITH PRICES WE'RE NOT OVERBILLED, AND BY BEING ABLE TO SHOP IN ADVANCE OF CARE.

>> Lou: WHAT ABOUT FOR PEOPLE WITH SPECIFIC INSURANCE PLANS, ARE HOSPITALS SUPPOSED TO BE PROVIDING THAT SPECIFIC PRICE IN THOSE SCENARIOS, TOO?

>> Fisher: YES.

ALL PRICES AT EVERY HOSPITAL ARE TO BE POSTED ONLINE COMPARING THE DISCOUNTED CASH PRICE TO ALL NEGOTIATED RATES BY EVERY INSURANCE CARRIER IN EVERY SINGLE HEALTH PLAN THAT THAT HOSPITAL ACCEPTS.

PRICES VARY GREATLY EVEN IN THE SAME HOSPITAL.

YOU CAN SEE ONE PATIENT PAY UP TO $6000 FOR A C-SECTION, FOR INSTANCE, AND ANOTHER WOMAN THE SAME DAY BY THE SAME SURGICAL TEAM MAY PAY OVER $60,000 FOR HER C-SECTION BY THE SAME CODES IN THE SAME HOSPITAL.

THERE'S WIDE PRICE VARIATION BY DIFFERENT INSURANCE CARRIERS, AND NOW BY SEEING THESE PRICES, WE CAN SEE, WAIT A MINUTE, IS OUR HEALTH PLAN PROVIDING AN APPROPRIATE AND FAIR PRICE COMPARED TO OTHER PLANS?

OR IS THE CASH PRICE EVEN FAR CHEAPER THAT IT MAKES SENSE TO PAY CASH OUT-OF-POCKET AND BE REIMBURSED.

>> Lou: OKAY.

NOW, AS FOR YOUR REPORT FROM PATIENT RIGHTS ADVOCATE, CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW YOU INVESTIGATE A HOSPITAL'S COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PRICE TRANSPARENCY RULE AND HOW YOU DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT A HOSPITAL IS FOLLOWING THOSE REQUIREMENTS?

>> Fisher: YES.

OUR ORGANIZATION, PatientRightsAdvocate.org, OUR DATA TEAM LOOKED AT EVERY REQUIREMENT OF THE RULES FOR ALL PRICES TO BE POSTED BY EVERY PAYER AND PLAN FOR THAT GIVEN HOSPITAL, AND THE CASH PRICE.

AND SO WE JUST SIMPLY TOOK THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE RULE AND COMPARED WHAT THE HOSPITAL'S DATA FILE POSTED ONLINE IS DOING IN COMPLIANCE.

AND WE FOUND THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, ONLY 36% OF THE NATION'S HOSPITALS ARE FULLY COMPLIANT WITH THE RULE SHOWING ALL OF THEIR PRICES.

THAT MEANS THE REST HAVE SOME TYPE OF FILE, HOWEVER THEY'RE INCOMPLETE AND THEY MAKE IT UNUSABLE FOR PATIENTS TO SEE WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT PRICES THEY WOULD BE PAYING FOR CARE AND COVERAGE.

>> Lou: NOW, THAT 36% THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED OF THE 2000 HOSPITALS THAT YOU SAMPLED, OR YOUR GROUP SAMPLED, IT'S UP FROM 16% LAST YEAR.

IT'S A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE, BUT OBVIOUSLY STILL WELL SHORT OF 50%.

WHY ARE THOSE NUMBERS STILL SO LOW?

>> Fisher: THE NUMBERS OF FULL COMPLIANCE BY THE HOSPITALS ARE BETTER THAN LAST YEAR.

HOWEVER, BEING THAT IT'S JUST MERELY OVER A THIRD OF THE NATION'S HOSPITALS FULLY COMPLIANT, IT'S REALLY BEEN SLOW WALKED BY THE INDUSTRY, BECAUSE AS LONG AS HOSPITALS AND INSURANCE COMPANIES HIDE THEIR PRICES, THEY CAN CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT.

AND PRICE TRANSPARENCY SHIFTS POWER TO THE PATIENTS TO BE PROTECTED FROM BEING OVERCHARGED, AND IT SHIFTS POWER TO THE PATIENTS TO BE ABLE TO SHOP UP FRONT AND SEEK THE BEST QUALITY OF CARE AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE PRICE.

SO WHY ALSO ARE HOSPITALS NOT FULLY COMPLIANT IS THAT THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HAS NOT BEEN ROBUSTLY ENFORCING THE HOSPITALS TO COMPLY WITH THIS LAW.

WITH THOUSANDS OF HOSPITALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY NOT IN COMPLETE COMPLIANCE, ONLY 13 HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN FINED IN THE PAST THREE YEARS FOR NOT SHOWING THEIR PRICES.

THAT'S A MINIMAL AMOUNT AND HAS NOT AFFECTED CHANGE.

HOWEVER, THE FINES OF OVER A MILLION DOLLARS IN MONETARY FINES AND PENALTIES QUICKLY GET THOSE HOSPITALS INTO COMPLIANCE.

WITHIN WEEKS WE SEE THOSE HOSPITALS THAT HAVE BEEN FINED THAT AMOUNT END UP HAVING EXEMPLARY FILES THAT COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

>> Lou: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT ENFORCEMENT IS LAGGING BEHIND, AS YOU SAY?

>> Fisher: THE LAWYERS AND THE LOBBYISTS OF THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY AND THE HOSPITAL INDUSTRY HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AND EVEN SUING IN THE COURTS TO PREVENT HAVING TO SHOW THEIR PRICES, AND THEY LOST.

THEY LOST IN THE COURTS.

AND IT IS A PATIENT'S RIGHT BY LAW NOW TO KNOW ALL PRICES UP FRONT IN ADVANCE OF CARE.

ADDITIONALLY, EVERY SINGLE EMPLOYER AND UNION HEALTH PLAN HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW ALL PRICES AND ALSO GET RECEIPTS OF PAYMENT, WHICH IS CALLED THEIR CLAIMS DATA.

AND EVEN THAT HAS BEEN WITHHELD BY THE BIG BLUE CROSS, UNITED, CIGNA, THAT HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT TO PROVIDE THE ACTUAL BILLING RECEIPTS AS WELL AS THE PRICING DATA TO EMPLOYERS SO THAT THEY CAN CREATE HEALTH PLANS AND GIVE INCENTIVES TO THEIR WORKERS TO HELP SAVE MONEY AND PUT MORE BONUSES AND MONEY INTO THEIR PAYCHECKS AND WAGES BY BEING ABLE TO SAVE ON HEALTH CARE COVERAGE COSTS AS GROUPS.

>> Lou: NOW, LOOKING BACK HERE IN NEW MEXICO, OUR STATE, ACCORDING TO YOUR REPORT, IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK, RANKED 25th WITH THAT NATIONWIDE NUMBER 36% OF HOSPITALS COMPLIANT.

THE MOST COMMON ISSUE THAT YOUR REPORT FOUND WITH HOSPITALS IN OUR STATE IS A LACK OF NEGOTIATED RATES, BOTH FOR MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM CHARGES, AS WELL AS IDENTIFYING SPECIFIC PLANS FOR ALL COMMERCIAL PAYERS.

ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPACTED MORE THAN OTHERS BY VAGUE OR INCOMPLETE PRICING INFORMATION?

>> Fisher: ABSOLUTELY.

ALL CONSTITUENTS IN NEW MEXICO ARE HARMED WHEN THEY CAN'T GET A PRICE FROM A HOSPITAL IN ADVANCE OF CARE.

IT PREVENTS THEM, BY NOT SEEING PRICES, IT PREVENTS THEM FROM FINDING OUT WHERE THEY CAN GET AN MRI FOR $300 VERSUS PAYING OVER $3000 FOR AN MRI IN A HOSPITAL SYSTEM THAT MIGHT BE OPAQUE.

SO WHEN YOU CAN SEE THIS WIDE PRICE VARIATION AND KNOW THAT YOU CAN GET THE SAME QUALITY AT A FAR LOWER PRICE, IT ALLOWS PATIENTS THROUGHOUT NEW MEXICO TO BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR HEALTH CARE WITH FINANCIAL CERTAINTY AT PRICES THEY KNOW THEY CAN AFFORD, AND PREVENT COMING TO HOSPITALS IN CRISIS.

OUTCOMES WILL BE BETTER, CARE WILL BE BETTER.

HOWEVER, WHEN ANY PATIENT DOESN'T GET A PRICE, THEY'RE ALSO HARMED WHEN IT COMES TO THE TIME THEY GET THEIR MEDICAL BILLS IN THE MAIL.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT IN NEW MEXICO, PATIENTS ARE BEING SUED BY HOSPITALS AND TAKEN TO COURT AND HAVING THEIR WAGES GARNISHED, AND ALSO HAVING LIENS PUT ON THEIR HOMES FOR OVERCHARGES?

MANY TIMES THESE MEDICAL BILLS ARE WAY OVERCHARGED BY BOTH THE INSURER AND THE HOSPITAL.

BUT PRICES NOW GIVE ALL NEW MEXICANS THE ABILITY TO FIGHT IN THE COURTS, BECAUSE NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO GO INTO MEDICAL DEBT WITHOUT THAT HOSPITAL PROVIDING ALL OF THE DATA BY EVERY SINGLE CODE AS TO WHAT THE ACTUAL PRICES ARE, SO THAT PATIENTS CAN ANALYZE THEIR MEDICAL BILLS AND STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES TO NOT GO INTO MEDICAL DEBT IF THEY'VE BEEN OVERCHARGED, OR HAVE ERRORS, OR EVEN FRAUDULENT BILLING.

THIS PRICE TRANSPARENCY NOW IN NEW MEXICO IS A TOTAL WIN FOR CONSUMERS, AND EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT THEY SHOULDN'T PAY THE BILL UNLESS THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A PRICE COMPARISON TO THEIR HEALTH COVERAGE FOR THEIR PLAN AND THE CASH PRICE, TO SEE IF THEY'VE BEEN APPROPRIATELY CHARGED.

>> Lou: NOW, FOR THOSE HOSPITALS THAT ARE EITHER PARTIALLY OR FULLY COMPLIANT, DO YOU THINK THE PRICING INFORMATION IS PRESENTED IN A CLEAR OR EASY TO READ WAY, EASY FOR JUST A REGULAR PERSON TO DIGEST WHEN THEY LOOK, OR IS THAT A SEPARATE HURDLE FOR BOTH HOSPITALS AND FOR PATIENTS LOOKING FOR THAT INFORMATION?

>> Fisher: WELL, MOST INDIVIDUALS CAN READ A SPREADSHEET, OR COLUMNS AND ROWS, TO COMPARE PRICES.

WE DO IT IN OUR EVERYDAY LIVES IN EVERY OTHER MARKET.

THE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW IS THAT MANY OF THE HOSPITALS ARE NOT PUTTING THEIR PRICING FILES IN A STANDARD SPREADSHEET FORMAT, AND THEY'RE OBFUSCATING OR PUTTING HURDLES BY CREATING COMPLICATED FILES, OR FILES THAT AREN'T EASILY DOWNLOADED BY MOST CONSUMERS, OR EASY TO OPEN ON ANY OF OUR COMPUTERS.

THAT'S A FORM OF OBSTRUCTION, AND IT PREVENTS TRUE PRICES FROM BEING KNOWN.

WHAT WE NOW ARE ENCOURAGED BY IS THERE ARE STEPS IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO CREATE A STANDARD PRICING FILE ACROSS ALL HOSPITALS SO THAT IT'LL BE MUCH EASIER FOR CONSUMERS TO PULL DOWN THESE FILES, AND THEN YOU CAN IMAGINE ONCE EVERYTHING'S STANDARDIZED AND THERE ARE MORE THAN 50% OF THE HOSPITALS IN FULL COMPLIANCE, WE WILL HAVE A TECH INDUSTRY CREATING SHOPPING TOOLS FOR OUR CELLPHONES TO SHOP FOR COLONOSCOPIES OR MRIs OR EVEN CHILDBIRTH ONLINE.

WHAT DOES IT COST TO HAVE A BABY?

WHAT DOES IT COST TO HAVE A STREP TEST?

WHERE CAN I GET THE CLOSEST MRI AT THE BEST PRICE?

MUCH LIKE WE HAVE WITH AIRLINES, LIKE EXPEDIA, OR KAYAK, OR GOOGLE FLIGHTS, YOU COULD IMAGINE THAT THESE TYPES OF TOOLS WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR US TO COMPARE WHERE TO GO, WHAT HOSPITALS, WHAT STANDALONE CENTERS, DOCTORS OFFICES WHERE WE CAN GET ACCESS TO CARE AT PRICES IN ADVANCE THAT WE KNOW WE CAN AFFORD.

>> Lou: NOW, THIS WEEK WE WENT LOOKING TO FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW EASY OR DIFFICULT IT IS TO FIND A PRICE AND COMPARE IT FOR ONE OF THE MORE COMMON MEDICAL PROCEDURES.

WE LOOKED FOR THE PRICE OF A COLONOSCOPY, LIKE YOU JUST MENTIONED.

AND OF THE SIX ALBUQUERQUE BASED HOSPITALS INCLUDED IN YOUR STUDY, ONLY THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO HOSPITAL HAD EVERY PRICE OPTION REQUIRED TO MEET THE HOSPITAL TRANSPARENCY RULE.

WITH THAT INFORMATION, WE WERE ABLE TO LOOK AND WE FOUND 46 DIFFERENT PAYMENT OPTIONS AT UNMH RANGING BETWEEN $380 AND $1900.

DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU THAT UNMH WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT HAD THAT AVAILABLE?

>> Fisher: WELL, SADLY, THAT IS THE CASE THAT WE'RE FINDING ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT ONLY 36% OF THE NATION'S HOSPITALS ARE FULLY COMPLYING.

BUT LOOK AT THE DATA YOU FOUND.

YOU FOUND A BIG PRICE RANGE OF VARIABILITY FROM A LITTLE UNDER $400 TO OVER $1900 FOR THE SAME EXACT PROCEDURE IN THE SAME HOSPITAL, IN THE SAME HOSPITAL SYSTEM.

SO WE APPLAUD THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO FOR BEING A LEADER AND ENABLING PATIENTS TO TRUST THE HOSPITAL TO AT LEAST PROVIDE THESE DIFFERENT PRICES, AND TO BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN GET AND AT WHAT PRICE.

THE REST OF THE HOSPITALS WOULD BE WELL SERVED IF THEIR LEADERSHIP -- THAT GOES TO THE CEOs AND THE CFOs -- DID THE RIGHT THING AND ABIDED AND OBEYED THE LAW, WHICH IS TO SHOW ALL PATIENTS PRICES.

LET ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE WHY.

IN CARLSBAD, WE FOUND A REPORT FROM JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY THAT ONE IN FIVE MEMBERS OF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY HAVE BEEN SUED BY THE LOCAL CARLSBAD HOSPITAL.

GETTING PRICES BY THE CARLSBAD REGIONAL HOSPITAL GIVES THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE TAKEN TO COURT TO HAVE THEIR GARNISHED WAGES OR LIENS ON THEIR HOME NOW HAVE THE RIGHT TO GET FROM CARLSBAD HOSPITAL THE PRICES AND COMPARE IT TO THEIR BILLS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN OVERCHARGED.

AND IN THE FUTURE, IT ALSO LET'S THEM GO ON ANY OTHER MEDICAL CARE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN SHOP IN ADVANCE OF GETTING THEIR CARE AND NOT GO WHERE THEY'VE BEEN OVERCHARGED IN THE PAST.

>> Lou: DO YOU THINK THAT THE HOSPITALS AROUND THE STATE THAT DON'T HAVE THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH TO GET IT AT SOME POINT SOON, AND WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU HAVE FOR PATIENTS IN THE MEANTIME?

>> Fisher: OUR ADVICE IS TO GO TO THE HOSPITALS THAT ARE SHOWING THEIR PRICES WHERE YOU CAN PRINT OUT AND GET THAT FAIR MARKET PRICE IN ADVANCE OF CARE.

WHEN WE SIGN IN TO GET CARE, OFTENTIMES IN ALMOST EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE, WE'RE SIGNING IN A BLANK CHECK, A PERSONAL GUARANTEE, THAT WE WILL PAY THAT HOSPITAL WHATEVER THEY CHOOSE TO CHARGE US FOR THAT PROCEDURE.

WELL, IF YOU COME IN WITH A PRICE ON YOUR PLAN AT OTHER HOSPITALS, YOU'LL KNOW WHAT TO WRITE IN TO SAY NOT TO EXCEED THE PRICE THAT MY INSURED RATE IS FOR THAT COLONOSCOPY PROCEDURE.

THAT PUTS A STOP LIMIT ON BEING OVERCHARGED, AND WE HAVE THAT RIGHT BY LAW.

IF THAT HOSPITAL ISN'T SHOWING THE PRICE, THEN TO DEMAND THAT HOSPITAL, EVEN WHEN ON SITE, TO PROVIDE A PRINTOUT OF THE ACTUAL PRICES FOR YOUR PROCEDURE BEFORE YOU SIGN ON THAT DOTTED LINE.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW ALL PRICES IN HEALTH CARE BEFORE YOU GET CARE.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE THESE PRICES BEFORE YOU PAY ANY OF THOSE MEDICAL BILLS TO MAKE SURE YOUR BILLS ARE CORRECT.

AND TOO OFTEN PATIENTS ARE OVERCHARGED BY BOTH THEIR INSURERS AND BY THE HOSPITALS, AND THEY'RE SURPRISED BY THOSE BILLS.

>> Lou: CYNTHIA FISHER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME HERE ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

>> Fisher: THANK YOU SO MUCH, LOU.

>> Lou: THANK YOU TO CYNTHIA FISHER FOR MAKING TIME TO TALK WITH US ABOUT HOSPITAL PRICING TRANSPARENCY HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

AS WE MENTIONED DURING THAT INTERVIEW ONLY 5 OF 14 HOSPITALS IN OUR STATE ARE COMPLIANT WITH THAT MEDICAL RULE.

HERE THEY ARE CARLSBAD MEDICAL CENTER, EASTERN NEW MEXICO MEDICAL CENTER IN ROSWELL, LOS ALAMOS MEDICAL CENTER, MOUNTAIN VIEW REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER IN LAS CRUCES AND UNM HOSPITAL IN ALBUQUERQUE.

AS FOR THE NINE REMAINING HOSPITALS THAT STILL AREN'T COMPLIANT WITH THAT 2021 RULE, THERE'S CHRISTUS ST. VINCENT REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER, IN SANTA FE COVENANT HEALTH HOBBS HOSPITAL, LOVELACE MEDICAL CENTER IN ALBUQUERQUE, LOVELACE REGIONAL HOSPITAL IN ROSWELL.

LOVELACE WESTSIDE HOSPITAL IN ALBUQUERQUE, LOVELACE WOMEN'S HOSPITAL IN ALBUQUERQUE, MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER IN LAS CRUCES, PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL IN ALBUQUERQUE AND THE HEART HOSPITAL AT LOVELACE MEDICAL CENTER ALSO IN ALBUQUERQUE.

FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE HOSPITAL PRICE TRANSPARENCY RULE, WE HAVE LINKS TO THE REPORT BY PATIENT RIGHTS ADVOCATE POSTED ON OUR SOCIAL MEDIA PAGES AND UNDER THIS VIDEO ON THE NEW MEXICO INFOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW BACK TO EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR AND OUR PANEL WITH REACTION TO SOME OF THE OTHER MANDATES INCLUDED IN THE GOVERNOR'S PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER AND A CONVERSATION ON WHETHER MORE COPS WILL HELP BLUNT GUN VIOLENCE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

>> Jeff: THANKS LOU, AND WELCOME BACK YOU ALL.

HOURS AFTER JUDGE URIAS BLOCKED THE GUN CARRY BAN PORTION OF THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER, OFFICIALS ANNOUNCED A BEEFED UP STATE POLICE PRESENCE IN ALBUQUERQUE, WITH NO TIME LIMIT.

WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A BIT.

IT IS CLEAR THE GOVERNOR BELIEVES MORE LAW ENFORCEMENT LEADS TO REDUCTIONS IN CRIME.

SHE HAS ASKED, BEGGED, TO USE HER WORD, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND TO SEND, QUOTE, ADDITIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TO NEW MEXICO TO ASSIST IN CURBING THE ESCALATING VIOLENCE AND DRUG AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING ACTIVITY THAT IS RAVAGING OUR GREAT STATE, CLOSE QUOTE.

AN OFFICIAL AT MAIN JUSTICE IN WASHINGTON TELLS ME THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN IN REGULAR CONTACT WITH THE LUJAN GRISHAM ADMINISTRATION OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS AND 19 ADDITIONAL AGENTS HAVE ALREADY BEEN SENT TO ALBUQUERQUE THIS YEAR, THOUGH IT IS NOT CLEAR HOW THEY ARE ASSIGNED.

THE LOCAL U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DETAILED SEVERAL INITIATIVES TO COMBAT GUN VIOLENCE THAT PREDATE THE GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDER.

TOM, DOES INCREASING PATROLS WITH NO CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS OR EVEN TARGETED OPERATIONS MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

>> Grover: IT CAN IN THE SHORT TERM.

THE PRESENCE WILL DETER FOLKS IN THOSE AREAS.

THE LONG LASTING EFFECT, I THINK, IS UNDETERMINED AND I THINK AS WE SAW WITH SURGE 1.0 AND SURGE 2.0, IT WAS REALLY UNCLEAR.

MAYBE THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS, WHILE THEY HAD POLICE OFFICERS PATROLLING THE AREA, OBSERVED OR EXPERIENCED AN INCREASED FEELING OF SAFETY.

MAYBE NOT.

BUT IT TAKES MORE OF A STRATEGIC EFFORT RATHER THAN A SIMPLY TACK PLAN OR TACTICAL EFFORT TO DETER THE TYPE OF CRIME THAT WE ARE HAVING.

PART OF THE ISSUE THAT SORT OF MAKES ME LOSE MY MIND IS THAT ALL WE HAVE BEEN HEARING FROM THE KELLER ADMINISTRATION IS THAT CRIME HAS BEEN GOING DOWN BY THEIR OWN DATA, SO, YES, WE HAVE HAD THIS SPIKE IN HOMICIDE AND HOMICIDE IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PATHOGEN, IF YOU WILL, COMPARED TO OTHER TYPES OF CRIMES AND IS HAVING STATE POLICE HERE GOING TO SUPPRESS THE INCIDENTS OF HOMICIDE?

I THINK THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO KICK THIS TO YOU MARISA AND YOUR EXPERIENCE REPORTING ON THESE ISSUES.

I KNOW YOU HAVE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS WITH FOLKS IN THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT AND SOUTH VALLEY AND ELSEWHERE.

DO PEOPLE, FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A REPORTER, TEND TO FEEL SAFER WHEN THERE ARE MORE COPS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS?

>> Demarco: THE REPORTING THAT I DID IN 2019 DURING THE FIRST METRO SURGE WAS NO.

THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE NEIGHBORS OFTEN FELT LIKE THEY WERE UNDER SIEGE.

THERE IS POLICE PATROLS STACKED FIVE DEEP ROLLING DOWN JUST NEIGHBORHOOD STREETS.

AND THE THING IS THAT EVEN WITH THE METRO SURGE, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST SUCH OPERATION THAT SEEMS TO TARGET THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT WHICH IS ESPECIALLY WHERE I WAS SPEAKING WITH PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF NEIGHBORS SAID THEY SEE REPEAT OPERATIONS, THEY SEE SUDDEN SURGES OF APD OR BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFFS DOING WARRANT SWEEPS OR STATE POLICE OR FEDERAL OPERATIONS.

LIKE IT IS PRETTY REGULAR THAT ONE AGENCY OR ANOTHER SHOWS UP AND HAS A REALLY BIG PRESENCE IN THAT COLLECTION OF NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND IT IS WORTH SAYING, TOO, THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE STATE.

IT HAS -- IT IS OFTEN A LOWER INCOME NEIGHBORHOOD.

THE FIRST METRO SURGE AFTER THEY INITIALLY TARGETED ESPECIALLY THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT FANNED OUT SOME TO WESTGATE WHICH IS ALSO LARGELY A HISPANIC NEIGHBORHOOD, OFTEN WITH FAMILIES OF LOWER INCOME, AND SO YOU'RE SEEING THAT PART OF WHAT HAPPENS WITH ALL OF THESE ORDERS OR OPERATIONS OR EVEN JUST THE LAWS THAT ARE IN PLACE IS THAT CERTAIN COMMUNITIES FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING TARGETED ESPECIALLY BY THOSE LAWS.

AND SO THE RESULT IS NOT NECESSARILY AN OVERALL FEELING OF INCREASED SAFETY.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE SAW SOMETIMES WITH THESE SURGES OR THESE OPERATIONS THAT MAYBE CRIME WENT DOWN A LITTLE BIT DURING THE OPERATION BUT THEN IT POPS RIGHT BACK UP.

AND SO IF WE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AS A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE, AS A PERVASIVE PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE OVERTIME, YOU'RE NOT SEEING THE KIND OF GAINS THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO SEE.

AND, IN FACT, AS WE KNOW WHEN PEOPLE ENTER THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM, IT OFTEN LEADS TO RECIDIVISM TO MORE KINDS OF CRIMES.

SO THERE IS A POTENTIAL THAT WHEN YOU JUST GO OUT, BUST A LOT OF CHOPS, FIRST METRO SURGE HAD 15,000 TRAFFIC STOPS ALMOST AND I THINK LIKE 14.6, RIGHT, THAT PEOPLE END UP GOING THROUGH THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM AND COMING OUT THE OTHER SIDE HAVING LOST THEIR JOBS, HAVING MAYBE HAD FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIPS DESTROYED, HAVING A LOT OF LIKE COMMUNITY SUPPORTS RUINED AND THAT CAN LEAD TO MORE CRIME.

IT IS UNCLEAR EVEN IF THIS TEMPORARILY DAMPENS A CRIME RATE POTENTIALLY, NOT ALWAYS, ALSO, IF IT DOESN'T IN FACT LEAD TO MORE ON THE OTHER SIDE, RIGHT.

>> Jeff: YEAH, LET'S GET TO SOME OF THAT, RIGHT.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE.

FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT INTERVENTION AND IN NAME OF REDUCING CRIME IN ALBUQUERQUE HAS PRODUCED DISASTROUS RESULTS IN THE PAST.

THERE WERE MASSIVE RACIAL DISPARITIES AMONG THE OVERWHELMINGLY LOW LEVEL DRUG OFFENDERS ARRESTED BY THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES IN 2016.

I SPENT THREE YEARS WRITING ABOUT THAT.

THERE WAS DONALD TRUMP'S OPERATION LEGEND AND THEN AS WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THERE WAS THE SO-CALLED METRO SURGE.

NONE OF THESE, IN THE LONG-TERM, HAS TOUCHED THE CRIME RATE.

DURING OUR NEWS CONFERENCE LAST WEEK THE GOVERNOR HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT THIS KIND OF APPROACH.

>> Governor: UNLIKE THE SURGE, WHICH WORKED, IT WASN'T SUSTAINED.

AND THE INITIAL SURGE DIDN'T HAVE ALL OF THE OPERATIONAL IMPACTS THAT IT NEEDED, LESSONS LEARNED, TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU WERE THERE IN COURT AND PROSECUTIONS WERE MAINTAINED IN A PRODUCTIVE MANNER.

>> Jeff: FRANK, THESE KIND OF FLOOD-THE-ZONE TACTICS, WHAT KINDS OF CONCERNS DID THOSE RAISE FOR YOU?

I AM GOING TO ASK YOU TO PUT ON YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER HAT FOR A MOMENT.

WHAT ARE THE CONCERNS?

WHAT ARE THE RED FLAGS?

>> Davis: ALWAYS DISPARATE ENFORCEMENT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE TYPES OF SURGES AND WHO THEY TARGET IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT THEY TARGET, YOU'RE CRIMINALIZING POVERTY AND IT IS DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS FOLKS WHO ARE RACIAL MINORITIES.

SO, THE COMMUNITY IS ALREADY SOMEWHAT AT ODDS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND YOU GO IN WITH THESE SURGES AND YOU CREATE A DEEPER CHASM THAT WE END UP HAVING TO DEAL WITH LATER ON OR IT DOESN'T GET DEALT WITH AT ALL.

SO I THINK THE DISPARATE ENFORCEMENT AND DISPARATE IMPACT ON RACIAL MINORITIES AND POOR COMMUNITIES IS JUST A TRAVESTY AND AWFUL AND NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN SAY HAS EVER WORKED OR WILL EVER WORK.

>> Jeff: IS IT OVERLY PRESUMPTUOUS TO SAY THAT THIS IS, AT LEAST FROM SOME PERSPECTIVE, AN OPEN INVITATION FOR LIKE A ROLLING FOURTH AMENDMENT VIOLATION?

>> Davis: ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING HERE.

GUYS COME IN AND WE GET TO REPRESENT A LOT OF CLIENTS WHO HAVE HAD THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATED.

IT IS TERRIBLE.

I WISH WE DIDN'T HAVE TO GO THAT ROUTE BUT IT IS AN OPEN INVITATION FOR YOU TO CIRCUMVENT THE NORMAL CHANNELS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY FOLLOW.

AND BRINGING IN THE FEDS, I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT IS GOING TO HELP WITH A LOCAL PROBLEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ISSUES OF POVERTY, ISSUES OF DRUG ABUSE.

ISSUES OF MENTAL HEALTH DISORDERS.

BRINGING IN THE FEDS ISN'T GOING TO HELP WITH THAT.

>> Jeff: I DON'T WANT TO PUT ON TOO MANY HATS.

REALLY QUICK MARISA, I WANT TO GET TOM ON THIS.

I AM GOING TO ASK YOU TO GO BACK TO BEING A COP AS YOU WERE FOR A LONG TIME.

LET'S GO BACK TO THE PROBLEM THE GOVERNOR SAYS SHE WANTS TO SOLVE.

THESE KIND OF OPERATIONS, WE HAVE HAD A LONG CONVERSATION HERE AT THE TABLE NOW ABOUT GETTING A BUNCH OF LOW LEVEL FOLKS, CALLING THEM THE WORST OF THE WORST, WHATEVER IT IS, BUT TO GET TO THE TRIGGER PULLERS IN TOWN, PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE REAL ELICIT DRUG TRADE, THE FENTANYL, THE GUN TRADE, ALL OF THAT, THAT TAKES A DIFFERENT KIND OF POLICING WORK, DOESN'T IT?

TELL VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT LIKE WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET AT THAT?

HOW DO YOU GET AT THAT?

>> Grover: IT TAKES HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE COMMUNITY.

IT TAKES HAVING A RELATIONSHIP AND KNOWLEDGE IN THE AREA THAT YOU'RE PATROLLING, WHETHER IT IS JUST BEING FAMILIAR WITH FOLKS OR GETTING INFORMATION FROM FOLKS SO YOU CAN PASS IT OFF TO THOSE PEOPLE THAT DO THOSE INVESTIGATIONS ON THOSE HIGHER LEVEL CRIMINAL OFFENDERS.

WHAT IS IRONIC ABOUT ALL THIS IS THAT WITH THE IDEA OF HAVING A SURGE, JUST AS FRANK SAID, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE OFFICERS COME IN THAT HAVE NO ATTACHMENT TO THE COMMUNITY, NO FAMILIARITY WITH THE COMMUNITY AND THEY ARE TASKED TO ENFORCE CRIME UPON PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH.

SO, YOU ARE INSTANTLY GOING TO HAVE THIS US VERSUS THEM LANDSCAPE.

AND THREE YEARS AGO WHEN THE COUNTRY WAS GOING THROUGH THE 2020 RIOTS AND THE GEORGE FLOYD RELATED PROTEST, I MEAN, PEOPLE THAT ARE IN OFFICE NOW WERE PUTTING FORWARD MAILINGS THAT LITERALLY WERE DEMONIZING THE POLICE.

YOU HAVE BEEN PULLED OVER, ALL YOU CAN DO NOW IS TRUST THIS ENDS WELL.

AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS WE ARE ABOUT TO HAVE THE EXACT TYPE OF CIRCUMSTANCES INFUSED INTO THE CITY THAT AREN'T PRODUCTIVE TO ADDRESSING CRIME.

SURE THERE MAY BE AN IMMEDIATE REDUCTION IN SOME OFFENSES IN SOME AREAS WHERE OFFICERS ARE INFUSED BUT IS THAT GOOD POLICING?

IS THAT GOOD LAW ENFORCEMENT?

AND THAT IS THAT A REMEDY FOR THE CRIME THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CITY?

THE SIGNIFICANT CRIME THAT HAS TRIGGERED ALL THIS HAS BEEN THE INCREASE IN HOMICIDES AND VIOLENT CRIME.

I DON'T KNOW.

>> Jeff: AND MARISA, IT IS HAPPENING.

STATE POLICE HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE ORDER.

THEY ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY THEY ARE GOING TO.

AND CONVERSATIONS ARE ONGOING ACCORDING TO MAIN JUSTICE BETWEEN LUJAN GRISHAM ADMINISTRATION AND DC.

>> Demarco: RIGHT.

SO THE PART OF THE ORDER THAT THE JUDGE PUT THIS DOWN AND IS JUST THAT SECOND AMENDMENT PART.

THE REST OF THIS IS ALL STILL IN PLAY.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE FIRST METRO SURGE, AS I DID A LOT OF REPORTING AND LOOKING FOR RECORDS AND CHECKING IT OUT, WAS THAT THERE WAS, AS FAR AS I COULD TELL, NOT A PLAN IN PLACE UNTIL AFTER THEY WERE ALREADY DEPLOYED.

THERE SEEMED TO BE SOME CONCERN ABOUT COMMUNICATION BETWEEN STATE POLICE AND APD, RIGHT.

AND THEN ALSO, WITH THOSE 15,000 TRAFFIC STOPS THAT TURNED INTO SOMETHING LIKE 800 ARRESTS, MOST OF THOSE CASES WERE TOSSED IN THE END BECAUSE OF EITHER NO FOLLOW-UP FROM OFFICERS, THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED PROSECUTION OR APPETITE FROM THE DA'S OFFICE AT THE TIME BUT ALSO FOR SHAKY CASES, RIGHT, AND FOR SEARCH AND SEIZURE VIOLATIONS, WHICH IS THE FOURTH AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION, RIGHT.

SO, THOSE METRO SURGES YIELDED HISTORICALLY THOSE PROBLEMS.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ONE OTHER THING THAT HAS BEEN OVERLOOKED IN SOME OF THE LANGUAGE.

THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER ALSO DIRECTS CITIES AND COUNTIES TO INVOKE THE RIOT CONTROL ACT TO ADDRESS WHAT SHE IS CALLING A STATE OF EMERGENCY STEMMING FROM GUN VIOLENCE.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN SUPPORT FOR ANY OF HER PLANS FROM READERS IN THE ALBUQUERQUE AREA BUT, TOM, WHAT WOULD USING THAT OLD STATUTE ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE?

>> Grover: I HAVE NO IDEA.

IT IS TOTALLY PERPLEXING.

AS I UNDERSTAND THE IMPLEMENTATION OF HER ORDER, SHE IS GOING TO HAVE ESSENTIALLY A CRIME CZAR OVERSEEING THE OPERATIONS IN THE ALBUQUERQUE-BERNALILLO AREA.

AS THE DIRECTOR OF CRIME REDUCTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHICH HAS ITS OWN BACK STORY, I AM SURE EVERYONE WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH FORMER CHIEF CASADOS, KNOWS ABOUT.

IT IS UNTURNED TERRITORY AND THE NOTION THAT THAT ORDER IS SUPPORTED BY THIS ANALYSIS UNDER THE EMERGENCY HEALTH POWERS ACT AND THERE IS THIS ONGOING, CONTINUING, EMERGING THREAT TO EVERYBODY THAT UNLESS CERTAIN ACTIONS ARE TAKEN, I THINK, IS FRANKLY LUDICROUS.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT ONE OTHER THING THAT IS IN THAT ORDER THAT I DON'T THINK HAS GOTTEN AS MUCH ATTENTION ALSO.

THIS MIGHT BE A RHETORICAL QUESTION, BY THE WAY.

THE ORDER SUSPENDS THE STATE'S JUVENILE DETENTION ALTERNATIVE INITIATIVE AND DIRECTS CYFD TO EVALUATE JUVENILE PROBATION PROTOCOLS.

WE PLAYED A BYTE EARLIER IN THE SHOW WHERE THE GOVERNOR SAID, QUOTE, THE NOTION THAT THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY MUST END.

THIS PROGRAM APPLIES ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO NONVIOLENT YOUTH CRIMES.

I'LL TOSS THIS OUT TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE A SWING.

HOW WOULD LOCKING UP MORE CHILDREN REDUCE GUN VIOLENCE IN ALBUQUERQUE?

>> Davis: IT IS HORRIFIC TO HEAR THIS KIND OF RHETORIC ESPECIALLY COMING FROM THE GOVERNOR.

ARRESTING CHILDREN DOESN'T HELP ANYONE.

I THINK WE SAW WITH THE BENNIE HARGROVE ACT THAT WAS RECENTLY PASSED THAT WE ARE TRYING TO CURB SOME OF THE ACCESS AND THE ABILITY OF CHILDREN TO GET GUNS AND TO HARM OTHER FOLKS.

THAT IS A MORE SENSIBLE APPROACH.

BUT SAYING THAT WE SHOULDN'T GIVE KIDS ANOTHER CHANCE, GIVE THEM ALL A CHANCE.

THIS IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO GET THROUGH TO THEM WHILE THEY ARE JUVENILES, BECAUSE WE KNOW ONCE THEY GET THROUGH THE SYSTEM, THEY BECOME ADULTS, THEY BECOME BETTER CRIMINALS, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO REFORM.

LET'S GIVE THEM CHANCES AND TRY ALTERNATIVES WHILE THEY ARE STILL KIDS.

>> Jeff: LET'S TRY FOR SOME GAVEL THOUGHTS.

WE'LL GO AROUND THE TABLE.

WE'LL START WITH YOU MARISA, IF THIS WHOLE THING WAS MEANT TO BE A CONVERSATION STARTER, WELL, EVERYONE IS TALKING NOW, BUT WHERE DOES THE CONVERSATION GO NOW AND HOW DOES IT END?

>> Demarco: I THINK IT IS POINTING AT THE REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTIONS AND THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

IT WAS PART OF THE NEWS CONFERENCE, SOMETHING SHE TRIED IN THE LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION AND I THINK THAT IS WHERE WE ARE HEADED.

>> Jeff: SO REMIND VIEWERS, THAT IS SORT OF ROLLING BACK THE REFORMS TO THE BAIL SYSTEM THAT WE HAD?

>> Demarco: RIGHT.

MEANING THAT THE ONUS WOULD BE ON A PERSON TO PROVE THEY ARE NOT VIOLENT WHEN THEY ARE IN COURT AS OPPOSED TO STATE PROVING THAT THEY ARE, RIGHT, PUT SIMPLY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE STATE IS TRYING TO CHANGE THAT STANDARD WHICH WAS PART OF THE BAIL REFORM.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE CONVERSATION IS GOING IN JANUARY.

>> Jeff: TOM, WHAT IS NEXT?

>> Grover: THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF STRIFE GOING ON BETWEEN THE PARTIES AND WITHIN THE PARTIES.

WHAT IS TRAGIC IS THAT THIS FAMILY'S TRAGEDY THAT HAD THEIR SON MURDERED IS -- THE 11 YEAR OLD BOY -- I WAS AT THAT STADIUM FIVE DAYS BEFORE WITH MY OWN 11 YEAR OLD BOY AND IT REALLY JUST BREAKS MY HEART THAT THEY ARE SORT OF BEING KICKED AROUND AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AS A PUBLIC SAFETY HAS TURNED INTO THE ULTIMATE POLITICAL FOOTBALL BETWEEN THE PARTIES AND FROM THAT, THERE IS A DISTRACTION TO DOING WHAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE DONE WHICH IS PROVIDE AVENUES FOR RELIEF SO THAT PEOPLE DON'T FEEL SO DESPERATE OR LOST AND RESORTING TO CRIME, PROVIDE SOME LAW ENFORCEMENT MEASURES THAT WILL CURB CRIME WITHOUT INFLICTING CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS UPON EVERYBODY.

AND MOVE FORWARD AS A STATE INSTEAD OF TWO PARTIES.

I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING.

I MEAN, WE HAVE GOT THE GOVERNOR AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THROWING JABS AT EACH OTHER.

I THINK IT IS GOING TO GET HOTTER POLITICALLY AND UNFORTUNATELY THOSE OF US THAT LIVE IN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY ARE GOING TO SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT.

>> Jeff: FRANK, WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS GOING NEXT?

>> Davis: HOPEFULLY IT IS TWO-FOLD.

ONE IS LET'S GIVE THE KIDS A CHANCE.

LET'S RETHINK SUSPENDING THE ALTERNATIVES PROGRAM AND ALLOW THE JUVENILES A CHANCE AT REFORM.

TWO, I HOPE THAT THE GOVERNOR CONTINUES TO TRY AND CURB GUN VIOLENCE IN THE STATE BUT I HOPE SHE DOES IT IN A SENSIBLE.

I HOPE SHE GOES BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND COMES UP WITH CREATIVE SOLUTIONS THAT ADDRESS THE REAL ISSUES THAT UNDERGIRD THE GUN VIOLENCE INSTEAD OF JUST FOCUSING ON THE SYMPTOMS.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING AND TALKING ABOUT THIS.

IT IS A LABYRINTH OF CONSTITUTIONAL AND PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS AND WE APPRECIATE EACH OF YOUR PERSPECTIVES.

WE'LL BE KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON ALL THE DEVELOPMENTS SURROUNDING THE GOVERNOR'S ORDERS IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS AHEAD.

THANKS AGAIN.

>> Lou: THANKS JEFF.

AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WEEK WE SENT A LIST OF QUESTIONS TO THE GOVERNOR.

AS OF THIS RECORDING ON THURSDAY, HER SPOKESPERSON HAD NOT RESPONDED.

AS FOR THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE OF THE GOVERNOR'S ATTEMPTED ACTION, JUDGE URIAS' TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER IS IN EFFECT UNTIL THE NEXT HEARING, WHICH IS SET FOR OCTOBER 3.

NOW, AS WE END THIS WEEK'S SHOW, WE HAVE AN UPDATE TO A STORY WE BROUGHT YOU EARLIER THIS YEAR, ONE THAT ADDRESSES ADDICTION.

AS WE HAVE HEARD TONIGHT, THE DRUG TRADE IS OFTEN INTERTWINED WITH GUN VIOLENCE.

THIS WEEK, THE DEA HAS APPROVED A STUDY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO HOSPITAL AIMED AT TREATING OPIOID ADDICTION AND PTSD IN NEW MOTHERS.

IN APRIL, I SAT DOWN WITH DR. LARRY LEEMAN WHO IS LEADING THE STUDY TO TALK ABOUT THE REVOLUTIONARY APPROACH HE AND HIS TEAM WERE PURSUING, USING MDMA TO REWIRE PATIENT'S BRAINS.

THE IDEA IS TO HELP PATIENTS ADDRESS AND HEAL PAST TRAUMAS WHILE DECREASING THE RELIANCE ON OPIOID AND PROMOTING HEALTHIER LIVES FOR MOTHERS AND THEIR BABIES.

THE RESEARCH STARTS IN NOVEMBER WITH 15 PARTICIPANTS WITH THE HOPE OF BREAKING THE CYCLE OF ADDICTION.

YOU CAN WATCH MY ENTIRE INTERVIEW WITH DR. LEEMAN ON LINE RIGHT NOW.

JUST GO TO THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

THANKS FOR JOINING US, WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.