>>> WELCOME BACK, THE GOVERNOR'S RECORD-BREAKING BUDGET IS OUT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIR IS IN.

RIGHT HERE IN "OFF THE RECORD" TO COME AT.

THAT IS OUR LEAD STORY, A $74 BILLION GOVERNOR'S BUDGET.

ON THE PANEL ZOE CLARK, JIM KIRCHNER SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT "OFF THE RECORD".

>>> MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COST OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK TO.

NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> THANK YOU, WELCOME BACK.

NICE TO HAVE YOU ABOARD AND THANK YOU FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US TO FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

IF YOU'VE GOT A REQUEST OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT, THIS IS THE WEEK TO PUT IT IN.

THE GOVERNOR HAS A $74 BILLION BUDGET.

SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY THAT WANTS MONEY IS GETTING IT UNDER HER PROPOSAL, WHICH HAS TO GO THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE.

YOUR REACTION.

>> I MEAN, I HAVE TO QUOTE SENATOR.

AFTER HE HEARD THE PROPOSAL.

I COULD LITERALLY READ REDO THE NUMBERS AND WE WOULD BE SITTING HERE UNTIL TOMORROW.

THIS IS A HISTORIC BUDGET.

THE GOVERNOR BASICALLY SAID AS MUCH.

SHE TEED THIS OFF WITH HER STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS THAT WE WERE IN FOR SOMETHING BIG.

WE SAW IT.

SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE MANY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IS MAKING UP A REALLY LARGE PART OF THIS BUDGET.

AGAIN, WE ARE LOOKING AT $74.1 BILLION, A GENERAL FUND BUDGET OF $14.3 BILLION, THAT'S BILLIONS, BILLIONS MORE THAN I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST STARTED KEEPING TRACK OF THE BUDGET MORE THAN A DECADE AGO.

>> RICK, YOU AND JIM AND ZOE AND I HAVE COVERED THESE BUDGETS AND WE BOTH KNOW THE BUDGET IS TWO DOCUMENTS.

ONE, IT IS AN OUTLINE AND ALSO A POTENTIAL POLITICAL BLUEPRINT, IS IT NOT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS VERY MUCH ABOUT THE IDEAS, THE VALUES THAT THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO PUT ON THE TABLE ABOUT WHAT SHE BELIEVES -- WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS ANYWAY.

WE KNOW THERE IS AN ELECTION THAT IS COMING UP.

ALL OF THAT PLAYS INTO IT.

TO ZOE'S POINT, I THINK -- REPORTERS DOING MATH IS A BAD IDEA -- I THINK THIS IS ABOUT A 20 PERCENT INCREASE FROM THE FIRST BUDGET THAT THE GOVERNOR PUT ON THE TABLE.

IF I GO BACK TO THE FIRST BUDGET I EVER LOOKED AT HERE IN THE STATE, IT'S A REMARKABLE INCREASE.

I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE TOTAL DOLLARS, IT'S GOING TO BE A LITTLE HARD TO DIGEST, PARTICULARLY FOR SOME OF THOSE MORE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO LOOK AT THIS AND SAY THIS IS TOO MUCH.

THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO PARSE IT OUT.

PROBLEM IS, IF THERE IS MONEY IN THE COFFERS, A POLITICAL PREROGATIVE GENERALLY SUGGESTS YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND IT IN SOME FASHION.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT.

AS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT, THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED AND WE'VE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF MONEY LYING AROUND BEFORE.

>> JIMMY.

>> I THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE, I THINK EVERYTHING IS CHANGED AND EXACERBATED BECAUSE IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR.

THE GOVERNORS UP FOR REELECTION.

THE REPRESENTATIVES ARE.

SOME OF THE SENATORS ARE.

I THINK THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING.

THEY HAVE ALL OF THIS MONEY FROM THE FEDS, UNCLE JOE'S MONEY AND JOE BIDEN'S MONEY ON THE TABLE.

THOSE DYNAMICS ARE THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO WANT TO KEEP SOME OF IT IN THE BANK.

THOSE OF US WHO DON'T GET THAT DEEP IN THE WEEDS ON THE ACTUAL NUMBERS, WE ARE GOING TO SEE THE BATTLE LINES DRAWN OVER SUCH THINGS AS HERO PAY.

THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO GIVE TEACHERS, HEALTHCARE WORKERS, FRONT-LINE FIRST RESPONDERS SOME EXTRA PAY, WORKING THROUGH THE PANDEMIC.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO SAY THAT'S NOT FAIR BECAUSE IT DOESN'T INCLUDE EVERYBODY.

HOW DO YOU GIVE A CHECK TO EVERYBODY IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN WITH WORKERS WHO ARE FORCED TO STAY HOME AND SO ON?

THE BATTLE LINES ARE GOING TO BE DRAWN BUT I GUESS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD MAKE IT AN EASIER PROCESS.

IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT'S GOING TO GO THAT WAY.

>> TO THE POINT OF BATTLE LINES BEING DRAWN.

LET'S ALSO REMEMBER INTERNALLY WITHIN THESE CAUCUSES THERE'S GOING TO BE ISSUES AS WELL, BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME MEMBERS WHO WERE GOING ARE GOING TO BE RUNNING FOR REELECTION AND SOME MEMBERS WHO AREN'T.

SOME MEMBERS WHO ARE RUNNING FOR REELECTION AGAINST EACH OTHER, IF THESE MAPS ARE GOING TO -- IF THE SUPREME COURT ALLOWS THESE MAPS TO CONTINUE, WE COULD SEE SOME PRIMARIES.

WHAT ARE THOSE VOTES LOOKING LIKE IN THE POLITICAL MACHINATIONS THAT GO INTO THAT?

>> WE HAVE THE BENEFIT, HOW FOURFOLD THE COLLUSION, WE PRE- RECORDED THE INTERVIEW YOU WILL SEE WITH TOM ALBERT, CHAIR OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE.

RICK, WHEN YOU HE HEARD HIS COMMENTS, SPENDING TOO FAST, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT IS SOME OF THE FEDERAL FUNDS ARE SET UP TO BE SPENT OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS.

SOME OF THEM HAVE TO BE OUT THE DOOR BY 24 AND I THINK SOME OF THEM HAVE TO BE A LITTLE LATER.

I'M NOT SURE THE SPEED WITH WHICH THE GOVERNORS TRYING TO DISPATCH THESE IS GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

I THINK THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS GOING TO BE VERY MUCH WHAT ZOE WAS TALKING ABOUT, THAT IS WHO IS GOING TO GET THE WIN IF THESE FUNDS ARE APPROPRIATED?

WILL THE LEGISLATOR GET CREDIT?

WILL PEOPLE RUNNING FOR OFFICE?

OR WILL THE GOVERNOR GET CREDIT FOR THIS?

WHO IS GOING TO BENEFIT MOST FROM THIS.

AGAIN, IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT THE ELECTION SEASON.

I APPRECIATE THE FACT THERE IS SOME VERY LEGITIMATE SPENDING ISSUES THAT NEED TO GO ON.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO TALK ABOUT THE ELECTION.

NOT ONLY IS EVERY MEMBER OF THE SENATE WHO IS STILL ELIGIBLE TO RUN GOING TO BE UP, I'M GOING TO HAVE AT LEAST, I THINK, ONE -- WELL, I WON'T SUGGEST HOW MANY PRIMARIES WITH CITY MEMBERS I'M GOING TO HAVE IN THE AREA I COVER -- BUT THERE ARE GOING TO BE MORE PRIMARIES, MORE LEGITIMATE PRIMARIES THAN WE HAVE EVER SEEN.

EVERYBODY IS RUNNING IN A DIFFERENT DISTRICT, EVERY HOUSE MEMBER, A DIFFERENT DISTRICT.

POLITICS IS GOING TO PLAY A BIG PART IN THIS.

THERE'S NO SEPARATING THE TWO.

>> I WILL VENTURE IN AND ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

I THINK THIS IS A WIN FOR EVERYBODY IN THIS TOWN.

THIS IS WHY THERE WAS EXCITEMENT AMONG LAWMAKERS WHO SAID THIS IS WHAT WE WANTED -- LAWMAKERS LIKE TO DO TO MAKE THINGS.

THEY LIKE TO TALK AND SPEND YOUR MONEY, JIM.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THEY ARE FINALLY ON THE SIDE OF THE TABLE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO MAKE PAINFUL CUTS AND ARGUE OVER WHERE DO WE, AND WHO TAKES THE BIGGEST CUT.

AND THE PAIN THAT GOES WITH THAT.

AGAIN, IT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FLIPPED DYNAMIC.

WE HAVE THIS MONEY TO SPEND BUT NOW WE ARE GOING TO ARGUE WHO GETS IT AND WHO DOESN'T PICK OF THE PEOPLE DOWN HERE IN METRO DETROIT ARE ALL SAYING ARGUE WHAT IF YOU WANT UP IN LANSING.

JUST FIX THE ROADS.

THE ROADS DOWN HERE ALREADY SEEN THE POTHOLES FROM THE HARSH WINTER AND THE STORM WE HAD A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.

ALL THE ARGUING THAT GOES ON UP IN LANSING IS ONE THING, OUTSIDE OF THE BUBBLE, AS YOU LIKE TO SAY IT DOWN HERE, I THINK THOSE OF THE ISSUES THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE HAPPEN.

WHOEVER IS ON BOARD WITH THAT WILL DO WELL AT THE POLLS IN THIS ELECTION YEAR.

>> THE NEW CATCHPHRASE YOU THE NEW CATCHPHRASE FROM THE GOVERNOR IS FIX THE DAMS AND THE ROADS.

>> AND THE BRIDGES.

>> YOU KNOW WHO I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS WEEK WAS JENNIFER GRANHOLM, WHO MUST BE SITTING IN WASHINGTON AND SAYING WHAT I WAS GOVERNOR I HAD WON BILLION DOLLARS -- >> THAT CALL FOR -- >> WHEN THIS REFUND?

>> TALK TO THE SECRETARY COUPLE WEEKS AGO AND WAS TALKING ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE HAD HERE PARTICULARS PICK THOSE UP PROBABLY DIDN'T HAVE WHEN YOU ARE GOVERNOR.

SHE JUST LAUGHED.

YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A QUESTION AND I THINK I ADDRESSED IT THE CHAIRMAN IN OUR UPCOMING INTERVIEW.

THAT'S GOT TO BE A CONCERN FOR FOLKS WHO LOOK AT THE LONG BALL HERE, BECAUSE IF YOU GOT THAT BIG SPIKE IN REVENUES FOR ONE YEAR AND SPENDING BASED ON THAT, THE QUESTION IS DO THOSE NUMBERS CONTINUE?

REMEMBER, DURING THE LAST TERM FOR JOHN ENGLER, THERE WAS A LOT OF SPENDING GOING ON UNTIL YOU GOT TO THE LAST QUARTER AND THEY HAD A NEGATIVE SUPPLEMENTAL.

THAT WE WENT TO THE GRANHOLM YEARS WHERE WE HAD ALL OF THAT ANGST ABOUT NOT HAVING AMOUNT OF MONEY TO MAKE OBLIGATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE PREVIOUSLY.

THAT'S GOT TO BE A CONCERN FOR SOME FOLKS.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER INSIDE BASEBALL STORY WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT AND THAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MR. ALBERT AND THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS CHAIR.

YOU KNOW WHERE I'M GOING WITH US.

JIM STAMOS IS OLD-SCHOOL.

HE'S NOT GOING TO GET ALONG, BUT HE UNDERSTANDS THE PROCESS SOME PEOPLE SAY IN A DEEPER WAY THAN MR. ALBERT.

MR. ALBERT IS GOING TO STAKE OUT A POSITION THAT WE OUGHT TO GET DOWN THE DEBT AND CUT TAXES.

IS THEREBY PLAYED BETWEEN THE TWO?

THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS WERE REALLY, REALLY DIFFERENT MR. ALBERT SET A SPENDING SPREE, MR. STAMOS SAID IT'S THE GROUNDWORK FOR SOMETHING TO WORK OFF OF.

DIFFERENT TURN TONE, TEXTURE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE WATCHED IT PLAYED OUT SINCE WE HAVE HAD A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR AND A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

THE SNYDER YEARS, YES, THERE WERE MACHINATIONS ABOUT WHO IS GETTING ALONG WITH WHO IN THIS AND THAT.

BUT IT'S REALLY FASCINATING, IT HAS BEEN SINCE SHE TOOK OFFICE JANUARY 1ST, 2019 WHEN IT WAS SURE HE AND CHATFIELD.

IT ALWAYS SEEMED LIKE IT WAS TWO AGAINST ONE, BUT YOU NEVER COULD BE SURE WHO THE TWO AT ANY GIVEN TIME WAS.

WE ARE GOING TO WATCH THAT.

I HAVE TO SAY, I DON'T KNOW WE BROUGHT HIS NAME UP YET, BUT CHRIS HARKINS, THE BUDGET DIRECTOR, WHO WORKED WITH REPUBLICANS FOR YEARS AND YEARS IN LANSING.

WHAT DOES THAT HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP LOOK LIKE?

AS HE WORKS WITH THESE TWO CHAIRS.

I'M GOING TO BE REALLY INTERESTED TO SEE WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE.

DAVE MASTER ON, THE LAST BUDGET DIRECTOR, SEEMS LIKE THEY HAD A GOOD WORKING PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP GETTING TO THE LAST BUDGET.

ABSOLUTELY TO YOUR POINT, IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THESE CAUCUSES NEGOTIATE WITH EACH OTHER ON TOP OF THE NEGOTIATED WITH THE GOVERNOR.

>> RICK, DO SCHOOLS COME OUT FAT AND SASSY IN THIS BUDGET?

>> I WOULDN'T SAY IF I WOULD SAY FAT.

I WOULD THINK THE USE SCHOOL BUDGETS, THE ONE FROM LAST YEAR AND THE ONE FOR THIS YEAR HAVE BEEN SOME CATCH UP BUDGETS.

AS ONE WHO BENEFITS FROM PUBLIC EDUCATION, I MEAN, AS LONG AS THOSE DOLLARS ARE FUNNELED INTO THE CLASSROOM, I THINK THAT IS KIND OF A PLUS FOR THE STATE IS WE NEED MORE SKILLED WORKERS, AS WE NEED MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE PREPARED TO MEET THE CHALLENGES OF THE FUTURE.

YEAH, THERE'S A LOT OF MONEY OUT THERE BUT I THINK -- I WAS WITH TWO SUPERINTENDENTS YESTERDAY -- YOU'VE NEVER MET A SUPERINTENDENT WHO DIDN'T NEED MORE MONEY.

I THINK THEY WILL ALL SAY THIS WAS PROBABLY OVERDUE.

>> JIM, 20 SECONDS.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO OPEN ON THE AMBASSADOR BRIDGE?

>> WE ARE TAPING THIS ON FRIDAY MORNING.

THERE'S A COURT HEARING AT NOON TO GET AN INJUNCTION, BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THAT CONVINCE THESE TRUCKERS TO MOVE ON?

WE HEARD THE GOVERNOR SAY THAT IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN BECAUSE IT'S HURTING MICHIGAN'S ECONOMY.

SHE ALSO SAID THAT SHE IS WILLING TO SEND OVER WHATEVER IS NEEDED IN TERMS OF HEAVY EQUIPMENT.

SHE WAS ON THE AIR THIS MORNING AND KIND OF TONED THAT ALONG SAYING WE WANT TO RESOLVE THIS QUICKLY AND SAFELY.

HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT?

WE DON'T NO SPEED LET'S GO TO OUR INTERVIEW COPY RECORDED, WITH REPRESENTATIVE ALBERT.

>> WILL COME BACK THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE, REPUBLICAN TOM ALBERT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STATE.

HOW THE EIGHT MONTH OLD TWINS DOING?

>> THEY ARE DOING -- THEY ARE CRAWLING ANY SECOND NOW, DOING GREAT.

>> THEIR FIRST TV APPEARANCE AND THEN I HAVE TO PAY THEM A TALENT FEE, RIGHT?

>> MAYBE SOME PRO BONO.

>> THANK YOU CAN APPRECIATE THAT.

WHAT IS THE MAJOR DISAGREEMENT YOU HAVE WITH THE GOVERNMENT -- THE GOVERNOR ON HER BUDGET?

THE MAJOR ONE?

>> I THINK THERE IS A LOT.

CONCEPTUALLY SPEAKING, IT'S TOO MUCH TOO SOON.

I REALIZE WE HAVE A WINDFALL OF MONEY RIGHT NOW.

A LOT OF THAT IS FEDERAL BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES INCREASE STATE REVENUES.

WHEN I LOOK AT WHAT SHE IS PROPOSING THIS WEEK, I THINK NOW WE KNOW WHAT THE GOVERNOR WOULD DO IF SHE WON THE LOTTERY BECAUSE SHE WOULD GO ON A SPENDING SPREE.

THERE'S NO EMPHASIS AT ALL -- FOCUSING ON PAYING DOWN DATE.

NO FOCUS ON SAVING FOR WHEN WE HAVE OUR NEXT DOWNTURN PARAGRAPH I THINK WE HAVE A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

I WOULD LIKE TO BE MORE CAUTIOUS.

>> IS HER BUDGET DEAD ON ARRIVAL?

>> NO, THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF IT.

IF YOU SPEND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF ADDITIONAL FUNDS YOU ARE GOING TO FIND SOMETHING IN THERE THAT IS GOOD.

I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S DEAD ON ARRIVAL BUT DEFINITELY A LOT OF STUFF WE WILL HAVE TO WORK THROUGH STREET OF MS. MISS CLARK, WOULD YOU CONTINUE THE QUESTIONING PLEASE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WERE TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT JUST THIS SPENDING SPREE, AS YOU ARE CALLING IT.

BUT A LOT OF THIS MONEY, SOME $7 BILLION IN STIMULUS MONEY, RIGHT, FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, STIMULUS, THE NAME OF IT, THAT WAS BOTH MONEY FROM TRUMP AND BIDEN IS MEANT TO TO BE SPENT TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT WITH WANTING TO TRY TO GET THIS ECONOMY POST PANDEMIC MOVING AGAIN?

>> I GUESS MY FIRST THOUGHT IS THIS THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD IT CALLED STIMULUS FUNDING.

I'VE ALWAYS HEARD IT CALLED COVID REALLY FUNDS.

THAT'S WHY I'M GLAD WE PASSED THE COVID EARLY TREATMENT AND PREVENTION SUPPLEMENTAL THAT'S GOING TO THE GOVERNOR'S DESK AND HELPFUL NOT ONLY TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO EARLY TREATMENTS BUT ALSO THERE'S $300 MILLION TO HELP HOSPITALS AND HEALTH SYSTEMS GET THE STAFFING THEY NEED.

I THINK -- ANOTHER THING TO KEEP IN MIND IS THE TIMING.

THESE FUNDS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SPENT IN ONE YEAR.

IN FACT, WE HAVE UNTIL 2026 TO APPROPRIATE THEM AND UNTIL 2028 TO SPEND THEM.

MOST HEAVILY ALL THESE FUNDS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SPENT ALL AT ONCE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE COVID SUPPLEMENTAL, IF WE APPROPRIATED ALL THOSE FUNDS LAST YEAR, WE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO LOOK AND SEE WHAT CHALLENGES WE ARE FACING TODAY.

FOR INSTANCE, WHEN WE FIRST WROTE THAT BILL, HAD A HEAVY FOCUS ON MONOCLONAL ANTIBODIES SPECIFICALLY.

AS TIME WENT ON WE ARE SEEING THAT CERTAIN TREATMENTS, AND GO.

SOME MIGHT BE MORE EFFICACIOUS AS NEW STRAINS COME ABOUT.

SO WE CHANGE THE LANGUAGE AND MADE A MORE BROAD SO THAT WAY THE ADMINISTRATION COULD BUY DIFFERENT FORMS OF TREATMENTS AND MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO THEM.

I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE SAVE SOME OF THIS MONEY AND KEEP HER BACK SO WE CAN ADDRESS CHALLENGES AS THEY COME FORWARD.

>> A FOLLOW-UP.

>> YOU ARE FAIR TO SAY IT'S A LITTLE LESS THAN JUST THE FACT IS BEING SPENT AND MORE JUST YOU DON'T LIKE IT BEING SPENT AT THE RATE -- THE BREVITY AT WHICH IT IS PROPOSED RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, IF ANOTHER GIANT CONCERN WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS INFLATION.

THAT'S 100 PERCENT CAUSED BY THE GOVERNMENT SPENDING MONEY LIKE IT DOESN'T MATTER.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SPENDING, THERE'S THREE DIFFERENT WAYS YOU CAN PAY FOR THAT.

YOU CAN TAKE OUT DEBT, INCREASED TAXES, OR PRINT MONEY.

WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IS PRINTING A HACK A LOT OF MONEY AND THAT CAUSES INFLATION TAX.

THAT'S WAS CRUSHING WORKING CLASS FAMILIES.

FAMILY BUDGETS ARE GETTING CRUNCHED.

I DON'T WANT TO EXACERBATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

I THINK THERE IS A WAY WE CAN FIND A REASONABLE BALANCE OF TRYING TO OFFER RELIEF WHERE IT IS MOST NEEDED AND MAKING SURE WE ARE PREPARED FOR THE CHALLENGES AS THEY COME FORWARD.

>> MR. ALBAN.

>> I APPRECIATE YOU TAKING A MEASURED APPROACH WHEN IT COMES TO SPENDING MONEY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THIS IS A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS, PARTICULAR -- I THINK ABOUT ROADS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.

FOR 30 YEARS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FIXING ROADS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.

SOME OPPORTUNITIES HERE SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS SOME OF THAT MONEY OUT THERE.

IS THERE A TIME WHEN YOU HAVE TO TAKE THAT LEAP JUST BECAUSE THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE AND IT WON'T BE THERE AGAIN?

>> YEAH, WE ARE FINALLY STARTING TO GET GUIDANCE AND A MORE CLEAR PICTURE OF WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PASSED IN DECEMBER WHEN IT COMES TO THE INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN AND WHAT ALLOCATIONS THE STATE IS GOING TO GET.

WE ARE GETTING CLOSER ON THAT ONE, AT LEAST FROM THE HOUSE, AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT THAT IS.

I AGREE.

LITERALLY, EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET INFRASTRUCTURE DONE.

WE ARE WORKING ON IT.

THERE'S ONE BIG OBSTACLE, THOUGH.

IF SOME MAY REMEMBER SEVERAL YEARS AGO, THE ADMINISTRATION AUTHORIZE THE USE OF $3.5 BILLION OF ROAD BONDING.

THAT WAS BASICALLY A COPOUT TRYING TO WORK WITH THE LEGISLATURE ON SOME TYPE OF INCREASED REVENUE SOURCE FOR ROADS.

THERE IS STILL OVER $1 BILLION REMAINING IN THE AUTHORIZATION.

WE HAVE OVER $1 BILLION OF FEDERAL FUNDS RATE NOW.

I VERY MUCH DO NOT WANT TO DO THE BONDING.

IT'S AN OBSTACLE GETTING THOSE FEDERAL FUNDS OUT THE DOOR IF THE ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TO JUST CRUSH US WITH THAT.

THIS $3.5 BILLION IS WAY MORE THAN WE HAVE EVERY SCENE AND WROTE THAT.

WHY THAT IS IMPORTANT IS, YES, WE CAN DO A LOT OF PROJECTS UP FRONT, BUT THEN WE ARE PAYING THE SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT IN DEBT SERVICE OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS.

THAT'S GOING TO CONSTRAIN OUR ABILITY TO DO MAINTENANCE AND REGULAR UPKEEP.

I THINK WE NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THERE.

>> MR. ALBIN?

>> YOU HAD THAT DISCUSSION WITH ANYBODY IN THE ADMINISTRATION?

ARE THEY WILLING TO RECONSIDER THAT OR TAKE A LOOK AT THAT?

>> I HAVE EXPRESSED -- WHAT MY POSITION IS.

HOPING WE CAN WORK THROUGH THAT.

>> JIM?

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT HERE OKAY.

THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO GIVE HERO PAID TO TEACHERS, RETENTION BONUSES, BEHAVIORAL HEALTH WORKERS, NURSING HOME, NONDIRECT HEALTHCARE WORKERS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND FIRST RESPONDERS, SOME $500 MILLION FOR HERE OKAY.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS ALREADY PASSED SUBSTITUTE TEACHERS ALLOWING OTHER EMPLOYEES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS, WHETHER THEY ARE SCHOOL OFFICE WORKERS, EVEN CUSTODIANS, TO STEP IN AS SUBSTITUTE TEACHERS.

DO YOU AGREE WITH HERO PAID?

DOES NEED TO BE EXPANDED TO OTHER AREAS?

WHAT YOUR POSITION ON THAT?

>> A FEW THOUGHTS ON THIS.

I GUESS, FIRST OFF.

IT'S A VERY REMINISCENT OF THE WHOLE WHO IS ESSENTIAL AND NONESSENTIAL.

I THINK THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF HARD FEELINGS THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF WHO WAS ABLE TO GO TO WORK AND WHO WAS FORCED TO STAY HOME.

I THINK IT BRINGS UP SOME OF THOSE HARD FEELINGS.

I GUESS ANOTHER ISSUE IS GENERALLY SPEAKING, THIS IS HERO PAY, THE GOVERNOR'S TAX RELIEF PLAN.

IT VERY MUCH PICKS WINNERS AND LOSERS.

EVERYBODY WAS AFFECTED BY THE PANDEMIC.

EVERYBODY HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

IF YOU LOOK AT HER TAX PLAN, IF YOU ARE A PUBLIC PENSIONER, YOU GET 100 PERCENT OF YOUR INCOME IS EXEMPT FROM THE TAX, BUT IF YOU HAVE A PRIVATE PENSION OR A 401K, THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME'S TAX STRUCTURE.

YOU GET TAXED AFTER A CERTAIN THRESHOLD.

THEIR MORE SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS LOOK AT HOW WE CAN HAVE A FAIR -- A FAIR APPROACH TO OFFER RELIEF TO THOSE THAT ARE STILL AFFECTED.

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO TAX RELIEF.

SOMETHING THAT CAN HELP LONG-TERM TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A FAIR TAX STRUCTURE.

>> JIM?

>> UNDERSTOOD, BUT DO YOU DISAGREE WITH HER DEFINITION OF HEROES.

IF YOU SAY NEEDS TO BE EXPANDED, WHAT OTHER OCCUPATIONS WOULD YOU PUT ON THAT SAME LIST?

>> IN MY MIND, ALL MICHIGANDERS ARE HEROES.

I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS FAIR.

I DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE POSITION OF PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS.

THAT'S NOT MY DECISION.

AS A LEGISLATOR -- >> I MEAN -- YOU HAVE TO DIVVY IT UP SOMEHOW.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN INDUSTRIES.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORK FORCE FUNDING THAT WE PASSED, THE $300 BILLION FOR THE HEALTH SYSTEM, THAT WAS DECENTRALIZED.

ESSENTIALLY, FOR EXAMPLE, AN INDIVIDUAL HOSPITAL COULD CUSTOMIZE HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO USE FOR RECRUITMENT OR RETENTION OR TRAINING, OR THEY COULD USE IT TO PAY DOWN DEBT FOR ANY TUITION THAT EMPLOYEE MAY HAVE.

WHEN YOU GET CLOSER TO THE GROUND IN THOSE CERTAIN INDUSTRIES, I THINK IT'S BETTER FOR THEM TO TRY TO CUSTOMIZE SOMETHING.

GOING TO LANSING AND TRYING TO SAY YOU WIN AND YOU DON'T WIN, I DON'T THINK THAT'S MY ROLE SPEED REPRESENTATIVE, MAKE CLARIFY.

ARE YOU CALLING FOR THE GOVERNOR TO END THE BONDING PROGRAM FOR THE ROADS?

IS THAT WHAT YOU MEANT?

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S A RIDICULOUS POLICY AND EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.

>> SECONDLY.

LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE VICTORY THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS MOVING TOO FAST ON THE SPENDING RIGHT NOW.

DO SUSPECT THE MAJOR MOTIVATION FOR HER TO DO THAT IS TO CEMENT HER REELECTION BID?

>> GOOD QUESTION, TAM.

I DON'T LIKE TO GET INTO SPECULATING WHAT MOTIVATES OF THE PEOPLE.

I LIKE TO LOOK AT THE FACTS THAT ARE IN FRONT OF ME AND I THINK IT'S TOO MUCH TOO SOON.

>> WELL, NOT GONNA LET YOU OFF THE HOOK ON THAT BECAUSE DEEP DOWN IN YOUR HEART, YOU ARE AN HONEST MAN.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE THINKING, SIR, IF I MAY.

>> WELL, I WILL PUT IT THIS WAY.

HER PULLING NUMBERS ARE THROUGH THE FLOOR RIGHT NOW.

SHE'S DOING WHAT SHE CAN.

HER BEHAVIOR A YEAR AGO IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IT IS RIGHT NOW.

I THINK MY FAVORITE SLIDE IN THE BUDGET PROPOSAL WAS WHEN THEY CALLED TAX RELIEF SAVINGS.

MY ENTIRE LIFE LINE, I'M 36 YEARS OLD, I'VE NEVER SEEN A DEMOCRAT CALL TAX RELIEF SAVINGS.

I WAS EXTREMELY ENCOURAGED TO SEE THAT SPEEDING YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY SHE'S PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE BUDGET BUT YET IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS YOU BELIEVE SHE IS.

>> TIM, YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH IF YOU LIKED.

I THINK I'VE MADE MY POSITION CLEAR ON THIS.

>> OKAY.

I DIDN'T HEAR A DENIAL, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.

LET'S GO BACK TO Z, PLEASE.

>> MUST PUT YOU WORDS IN YOUR OWN MOUTH.

YOU DID SAY EARLIER, I WILL QUOTE YOU.

YOU ARE LOOKING FOR TARGETED AND SUSTAINABLE TAX RELIEF.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

SOME ACTUAL PROPOSALS AND NUMBERS, PLEASE.

>> YES.

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

IF YOU LOOK, WE HAVE A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK -- I'M NOT LOOKING AT THE FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR TAX RELIEF.

IT'S EXPRESSLY NOT ALLOWED.

IF YOU LOOK AT STATE REVENUE, FROM WHAT I'M BEING TOLD, OUR ANALYSTS IN THE HOUSE, WE HAVE NORTH OF $4 BILLION ON THE BALANCE SHEET AND THE GENERAL FUND.

A FEE FOR THAT, A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS IS NEW ONGOING FUNDS.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE GOVERNOR'S TAX RELIEF PROPOSALS WERE, THAT IS ROUGHLY ABOUT WHAT IT WAS.

$800 MILLION AS A STARTING POINT, YOU COULD GO NORTH OF THAT.

YOU WANT TO SPECIFIC NUMBERS, THAT'S WHERE YOU COULD START TO BECAUSE SPECIFIC PROPOSALS THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT -- I'M SORRY.

>> NO, PLEASE, SPECIFIC PROPOSALS.

SHOULD HAVE INTERRUPTED.

>> SORRY, THAT YOUR CUTTING IN.

THINGS THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT, THIS IS -- I'M LOOKING AT EVERYTHING I CAN.

IF THERE'S MORE IDEAS THAT COME UP THAT I DON'T MENTION HERE, DON'T BE SURPRISED.

INCOME TAX RATE ROLLBACKS ARE ON THE TABLE.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF INCREASING THE PERSONAL EXEMPTION.

COULD DO THAT FOR EVERYBODY.

COULD DO THAT FOR RETIREES.

THAT'S AN INTERESTING WAY TO GO BECAUSE RIGHT NOW A PERSONAL EXEMPTION IS ABOUT $4900.

IF YOU INCREASE THAT, THE FIRST $7000 OR $10,000 THE PERSON EARNS IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN COULD BE TAX FREE.

THAT HELPS THOSE THAT ARE LOWER INCOME, PROPORTIONALLY, A LOT MORE THAN THOSE ARE AT HIGHER INCOME LEVELS.

THAT'S AN INTERESTING WAY TO GO.

WE COULD LOOK AT PROPERTY TAX RELIEF.

THAT HELPS EVERYBODY WHO IS EITHER PAYING RENT OR LIVING AT YOUR OWN SINGLE-FAMILY HOME.

YOU CAN LOOK AT COMMERCIAL PROPERTY TAX RELIEF -- SORRY, PERSONAL PROPERTY TAX RELIEF.

THERE IS A LOT OF OPTIONS ON THE TABLE THAT WE HAVE.

>> THE FLOORS $800 MILLION IS WHAT YOU ARE BRINGING TO THE TABLE, BASICALLY, IN NEGOTIATIONS.

>> YEAH, I DON'T LIKE PUTTING A FLAG IN THE GROUND IN THAT MANNER, BUT I THINK IT'S A GOOD STARTING POINT.

THINK WE CAN GO NORTH OF THAT.

>> RICK?

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BUDGET AS IT HAS BEEN PRESENTED, IT IS BASED ON -- FORGETTING ABOUT THE FEDERAL MONEY FOR MOMENT -- ALMOST $7 BILLION SWING AND WHAT WAS PROJECTED TO BE $3 BILLION DEFICIT TO ABOUT A $3.5 BILLION SURPLUS, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT USING THAT BUDGETING AND USING THAT BASELINE GOING FORWARD, THAT WE MIGHT NOT SEE THAT EXTRA $3 BILLION IN THE COMING YEAR OVER THE YEAR AFTER THAT, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PATH, BASED ON WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY, SPENDING AT THAT LEVEL.

THEN WE HAVE SEEN NEGATIVE SUPPLEMENTALS IN TIMES WHEN THE STATE JUST CAN'T KEEP UP WITH THAT PACE.

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU?

>> YES, IT CONCERNS ME GREATLY.

THAT'S WHY I'M GOING TO BE FOCUSED ON PAYING DOWN DEBT, SAVING AND MAKING SURE IF WE DO MAKE INVESTMENTS ITSELF THAT CAN BE DONE IN TIME.

ARE NOT CREATING SOME TYPE OF NEW GOVERNMENT ONGOING PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US ON A PROGRAM, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU CAN HAVE THIS THING WRAPPED UP BY JULY 1ST?

>> THAT'S ALWAYS MY GOAL, TRY TO LAST YEAR.

AT LEAST WE DID FOR THE SCHOOLS.

I WILL DEFINITELY GIVE A MY BEST SHOT.

ALSO, TIM, CONGRATULATIONS TO 50 YEARS ON THAT AIR.

IT'S AN HONOR.

>> I APPRECIATE THAT.

CLOSING, YOU DON'T WANT TO ELIMINATE THE STATE INCOME TAX, CORRECT?

>> NOW WITH $800 MILLION.

WE WOULD BE SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS SHORT.

>> THANK YOU.

APPRECIATE IT.

THANKS TO OUR PANEL.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK RIGHT HERE ON "OFF THE RECORD".