.

TIM: WELCOME BACK.

OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS THE PRESIDENT PRO TEM OF THE MICHIGAN SENATE, SENATOR JEREMY MOSS.

NOW STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIR AND THE WORD RECALL ADDED TO THE DEBATE OVER GUN SAFETY.

SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE, OUT, "OFF THE RECORD."

PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- NOW, THIS EDITION OF AVE BIE WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WELCOME TO STUDIO C, HOPE YOU GOT POWER IN JACKSON.

60% OF THE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE JUICE, WE HAVE JUICE AND STORIES.

TALK ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, SAMANTHA, WHAT'S THE LEAD STORY OUT OF LAST WEEK?

>> I FEEL IT WAS LAST YEAR'S ENDORSEMENT CONVENTION FROM REPUBLICANS, CHRISTINE KARAMO DIDN'T DO DEBATE BEFOREHAND, AND NEARBY CLOSE TO 70%.

THIS NEW BODY OF MICHIGAN REPUBLICANS, WHO EXACTLY ARE THEY?

WE KNOW THAT THEY LOVE DONALD TRUMP FOR THE MOST PART.

THEY HAVE VERY OVERWHELMING MISTRUST, AND ELECTION OPERATIONS IN OUR STATE AND ACROSS THE STATE.

>> THERE'S AN UNDERSTATEMENT, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S WHY I SAID OVERWHELMING.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, THEY WANT TO DISRUPT THE PARTY IN A WAY WHERE THE LEADER ISN'T SOMEBODY INFLUENCED BY LARGE SCALE DONORS, AND CHRISTINA KARAMO EMBODIES THAT.

YOU WENT FROM HAVING A CHAIR OF THE PARTY THAT IS ABLE TO DONATE MORE THAN $3 MILLION OF HIS OWN MONEY, NOW YOU HAVE SOMEONE THAT RAISED AROUND $400,000 TO JOCELYN BENSON'S 10 MILLION WHILE RUNNING FOR SECRETARY OF STATE.

>> THIS STORY, THE DEMOCRATS, AFTER THE WEEKEND WENT THANK YOU.

>> YEAH, THIS IS GRACE ROOTS CORONATION.

ANYONE SURPRISED BY THE SERIES OF EVENTS HASN'T BEEN PAYING SUPER CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE PARTY.

THIS IS A SERIES OF EVENTS THAT BEGAN IN 2016 OR AS FAR BACK AS 2010, WHAT EMERGED AS ELECTORAL COALITION OF CONVENIENCE HAS GONE TO BECOME THE CENTER AND THE LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY.

SO I THINK THAT WHILE THERE'S REACTIONARY ELEMENTS IN THE COALITION NOW, AND EVEN NOTES OF CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM, THIS IS SORT OF AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE, IF YOU LOOK AT MAT DePERNO, HE WANTED TO SAY I CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

THERE'S BEEN A SUSTAINED AND VERY WELL-ORGANIZED SYSTEM OF PRECINCT DELEGATE RECRUITMENT.

THAT'S HOW THE CHAIRS ARE CHOSEN OVER THE YEARS.

THERE'S BEEN NO RESPONSE FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT FACTIONS OF THE PARTY.

THIS IS YEARS IN THE MAKING.

>> RON, WASN'T EVEN AT THE CONVENTION, SHOWS THERE WASN'T A SMOOTH HANDOFF.

I'LL GIVE CHRISTINE KARAMO THIS, THE GOP PARTY IN MICHIGAN IS DYING NEEDS TO BE REBUILT.

THE QUESTION IS, IS SHE THE PERSON TO REBUILD IT, CONSIDERING THE FACT SHE HAS THIS VERY INTERESTING PAST, ELECTION DENIER, SHE HAS YET TO CONCEDE THE ELECTION, WHICH SHE LOST BY A SIZABLE MARGIN, AND SHE'S NOT SOMEONE WITH DEEP HISTORY WITHIN THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW IS THAT GOING TO BE GOOD?

SHE'S A HISTORIC PICK, THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN TO LEAD THEIR PARTY.

ON PAPER, THAT MATCHES THE DEMOCRATS WITH BARNES ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, BUT ONLY ON PAPER, LEVORA BARNES HAD REAL EXPERIENCE BEHIND THE SCENES, POLITICAL WITH THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, SHE CUT HER TEETH ON POLITICS.

CHRISTINE KARAMO DOESN'T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE, BUT IS SHE THE PERSON TO COME IN?

SHE DOESN'T HAVE DONALD TRUMP'S SUPPORT.

SHE BEAT SOMEONE WHO DID, MATT DePERNO.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, LAST WEEK HIT THE END OF THEIR LONG CONVENTION, SHOOK THEIR HEADS AND SAID, REALLY?

THIS IS THE LEADER OF THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY?

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE IF SHE RISES TO THE OCCASION.

>> I THINK DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO VIEW THIS AS A WIN FOR HIM.

THIS IS SOMEONE HE DID ENDORSE IN THE LAST YEAR, SO IT MIGHT NOT BE THE ONE HE ENDORSED FOR THE POSITION, BUT AT LEAST SHE HAS TRUMP MAGA AMBIENCE ABOUT HER.

>> THE DELEGATES REJECTED WHAT MR. TRUMP WANTED.

ISN'T THAT THE STORYLINE HERE?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT TRUMP'S POLITICAL RECORD, HE CAN MAINTAIN THE RELATIONSHIP IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BETWEEN THE COALITION, THE GRASSROOTS ACTIVISTS AND ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

MATT DePERNO WANTS TO SHOW HIMSELF AS THE MINIATURIZED VERSION OF THAT INDIVIDUAL.

THE GRASSROOTS DELEGATES HAVE TAKEN OVER THE PART NOW, DePERNO IS SAYING I THINK I CAN HAVE THIS BOTH WAYS, CHRISTINA REALIZED -- WITH THE ELECTION WITH CHRISTINA KARAMO, WE DON'T NEED THIS, WE CAN DO IT OUR WAY.

>> SHE HAS TO, ONE, RAISE A LOT OF MONEY, WHICH YOU ALLUDED TO AND WIN ELECTIONS.

IF SHE CAN'T DO THOSE TWO THINGS, IN TWO YEARS' TIME, SHE'S GOING TO BE OUT.

>> I HAVE A POINT TO MAKE.

REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MICHIGAN HAS TO PUT ON THEIR OWN CAUCUS-RAN PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY.

GOVERNOR WHITMER SIGNED THE EARLY BILL FOR DEMOCRATS AND BASICALLY ALREADY HAVE JOE BIDEN'S CONEY DOG ON THE GRILL RIGHT NOW FOR HIM.

[LAUGHTER] >> IT'S GOING TO BE A COMPLICATED TIME.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE CONFUSED ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, FRUSTRATED AND THE RNC IS GOING TO BE WATCHING BECAUSE PEOPLE WHAT TO SEE HOW A COMPETITIVE REPUBLICAN PARTY GOES IN A SWING STATE LIKE MICHIGAN.

>> HERE'S THE QUESTION: THE ESTABLISHMENT REPUBLICAN PARTY, MEETING IN THE PHONE BOOTHS AT SOME PLACE, WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR?

I THINK THEY'RE WAITING FOR THE PARTY TO GET CONTROL OF THE MICHIGAN HOUSE.

ISN'T THAT THE THING ON THE AGENDA RIGHT NOW?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MICHIGN PARTY, IT'S A CENTRALIZED FINANCIAL VEHICLE.

THIS IS THE SUCCESS THE DEMOCRATS HAVE HAD OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, THEY CENTRALIZED OPERATIONS AND MOVED AS A UNIT TOWARDS COMMON ELECTORAL GOES, YOU HAVE A FRACTURING, AS THEY BUILD UP THE EXTERNAL INFRASTRUCTURE FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT SIDE, THERE'S NOT A LEADER THAT'S PRECHOSEN.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF PEOPLE MOVING IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH IDEOLOGICAL DIVISION AND RIFFS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW.

>> THE R WORD HAS BEEN RAISED IN THE CONTEXT OF THE GUN VOTE.

A GUN GROUP SAID IF YOU VOTE YES, WE'RE GOING TO COME AFTER YOU.

DOES THIS CHANGE THE DIALOGUE AT ALL?

>> IT CAN POSSIBLY SCARE SOME DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AND MAKE THEM THINK TWICE ABOUT DO I REALLY WANT TO GET ON BOARD WITH WHAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THEY WANT?

SO IT'S SORT OF THE POPULACE AGAINST THE POLITICAL INSIDERS AND THE LOBBYISTS.

THE LEGISLATURE TOOK ACTION, MAYBE 12 YEARS OR SO AGO TO MAKE IT TOUGHER TO HAVE THE RECALLS, SO THEY PUT ABOUT FIVE KEY POINTS IN, THAT YOU GOT TO GET PAST THOSE HURTLES.

BUT STILL, THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE, ESPECILLY THOSE IN SORT OF MARGINAL DISTRICTS THAT AREN'T OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS, AND AREN'T WHAT WE CALL QUOTE, UNQUOTE SAFE DISTRICTS THAT HAVE TO THINK TWICE.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL BATTLE RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE BETWEEN THE AVERAGE PERSON MAKING THEIR VOICE HEARD, STUDENTS PARTICULARLY, WE SAW THE BIG RALLY AT MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY, MICHIGAN STATE STUDENTS AND OTHERS CAME OUT, AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE INFLUENCE BEHIND THE SCENES.

QUESTION IS, WHO ARE THE LEGISLATORS GOING TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO?

>> WE COOKED UP GOOD NUMBERS FOR YOU, TIM.

>> IS THIS GOING TO COST ME?

>> NO, THIS IS A FREEBIE.

ULTIMATELY SINCE 2019, 53 RECALL EFFORTS MOSTLY TOWARDS THE GOVERNOR.

IN MICHIGAN, MOST OF THEM, AND THERE REALLY HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE ONE TO SHOW MUCH PROGRESS, AND THEN YOU HAD IN 2016, THERE HAS BEEN A RECALL EFFORT TOWARD SENATORS MEKOFF AND SCHMIDT BECAUSE THEY BACKED THE STATE GAS TAX INCREASE FOR ROAD FUNDING.

THEY NEEDED AT THAT TIME AROUND 23,000 SIGNATURES FOR THE TWO OF THEM.

THEY DIDN'T COME CLOSE TO COLLECTING THEM.

IT'S ONE THING TO PUT OUT A PRESS RELEASE AND LAUNCH THE RECALL EFFORTS AGAINST, IF IT'S ALL DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE, THAT'S GOING TO BE 20 DIFFERENT RECALL EFFORTS, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COLLECT THE SIGNATURES?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE THIS AN APPROPRIATE EFFORT?

>> I THINK THE ARGUMENT THAT THE PRO-GUN LOBBY THAT PUT THIS FORWARD SAID WE DON'T NEED 20 VOTES.

ALL WE NEED IS TAKE TWO AWAY FROM BOTH BODIES AND CHANGE THE DYNAMICS OF THIS LEGISLATURE TO REPUBLICAN CONTROL.

>> YEAH, THIS GOES BACK TO THE MAXIMUM THAT ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL.

THESE POLICIES ARE NOT NECESSARILY WHAT YOU CALL EXTREME IN TERMS OF GUN CONTROL.

UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, RED FLAG LAWS, SAFE STORAGE REQUIREMENTS.

THIS IS WHERE THE 2nd AMENDMENT ADVOCATES ARE LOOKING AT MARGINAL DISTRICTS AND DO DISTRICTWIDE POLLING WHERE THEY CAN FIND SOMEBODY ON THE MARGINS THAT DEMOCRATS NEED TO GET THIS LEGISLATION PASSED AND SOMEONE THEY CAN ZERO IN ON SAYING IF YOU VOTE INDIVIDUALLY, THIS IS WHERE WE CENTER OUR RECALL.

THESE RECALLS ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT TO DO AT THE LEGISLATIVE LEVEL.

>> BY THE SAME TOKEN, YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THE RECALL PETITION DRIVE, THE THREAT OF IT HANGING OUT THERE, CHUCK, CAN HAVE THE SAME IMPACT.

>> AS SIMON SAID, THEY'RE LOOKING AROUND SAYING WHICH REPRESENTATIVE, MALE OR FEMALE, IS POTENTIALLY VULNERABLE?

DO I FIND A FRESHMAN WHO JUST GOT IN, WHO HASN'T BUILT UP A POLITICAL WAR CHEST YET?

THEY NEED THE MONEY, AND WE'RE CONTRIBUTING TO THEIR CAMPAIGN, AND THEY DON'T WANT NECESSARILY TO USE IT?

OR INFLUENCE OTHER LOBBYING ORGANIZATIONS TO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR CAMPAIGN, OR FIND SOMEONE THAT THREATENED TO RUN AGAINST THEM, THAT COULD GIVE THEM A TOUGH RACE?

THESE ARE THINGS THEY HAVE TO CONSIDER.

THIS IS A TEST OF GOVERNOR WHITMER AND THE BULLY PULPIT.

HOW MUCH DOES SHE GET OUT AND REALLY SERIOUSLY CAMPAIGN FOR THIS, AND HOW MUCH DOES SHE USE THE DEMOCRATIC TRIFECTA SHE NOW HAS IN PLACE TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AS WELL?

YOU GOT TO GO TO THE PEOPLE, AND YOU GOT TO -- IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT WILL POTENTIALLY KEEP THE POLITICIANS IN LINE, IT IS IF THEY HEAR THE VOICE OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

BUT THEY GOT TO GET TO THOSE PEOPLE, GOT TO BE CALLING THE OFFICES, FEEL LIKE, OKAY, I GOT THIS THREAT OVER HERE ABOUT THE RECALL, BUT I HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE CALLING INTO MY OFFICE.

I BETTER GO WITH THIS ONE.

>> I MEAN, THAT'S A LOT TO DO IN NOT A LOT AMOUNT OF TIME.

DEMOCRATS WERE SUPPOSED TO KICK OFF HEARINGS FOR THE BILLS LITERALLY YESTERDAY AND THEN THE ICE STORM HIT.

I THINK TIME IS NOT ON THEIR SIDE IF THEY WANT TO GET THIS DONE OR MAKE WORTHWHILE PROGRESS.

>> THEY HAVE A SMALL WINDOW.

THIS LEGISLATION HAS BEEN GOING ON TEN YEARS, IT'S NOT NEW LEGISLATION.

ONLY THING THAT IS DIFFERENT NOW IS THE DEMOCRATS HAVE THE POWER.

CAN THEY USE THE POWER IN THE SHORT WINDOW AS YOU CORRECTLY SAID TO GET THE BILLS PASSED.

>> SAMANTHA, JUMP OFF THE GOOD NUMBERS YOU SHARED WITH US.

THIS IS A CLASSIC STORY OF CLASS PAST HISTORY IMPACT THE FUTURE?

BACK IN 1982, THE DEMOCRATS HAD CONTROL OF THE MICHIGAN SENATE, AND ALONG CAME JOHN ENGLER AND JIM BLANCHARD.

HE RECALLED.

TWO DEMOCRATS AND FLIPPED CONTROL.

WILL DEMOCRATS SAY DO WE WANT A REPEAT OF HISTORY?

DO WE WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN AND LOSE CONTROL?

THE LOBBY OF THE STUDENTS AND OTHERS I THINK ARE GOING TO FRAME THIS DEBATE IN THIS VERY SIMPLE TERM, ARE YOU MORE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL LIFE OR OURS?

I THINK THAT WILL BE A TOUGH THING TO SEE FOR LAWMAKERS TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED.

>> DO I DARESAY, DEMOCRATS IN MICHIGAN HAVE A DEBT TO PAY TO MICHIGAN STATE STUDENTS?

WHO WERE THE COLLEGE STUDENTS WRAPPING AROUND UNIVERSITY BUILDINGS TO REGISTER TO VOTE ON ELECTION DAY?

MSU AND U OF M STUDENTS.

THEY'RE DEMANDING THIS AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO FEED THE HAND.

>> I THINK, TO CHUCK'S POINT, THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THEY HAVE WHAT POLITICAL SCIENTISTS SAY A FOCUSING EVENT, NOT ONLY THE MASS SHOOTING AT MICHIGAN STATE BUT THE SHOOTING AT OXFORD.

IF REPUBLICANS CAN COME TOGETHER, NOT JUST ONE OR TWO, BUT A FAIR NUMBER AND PASS THESE, IF THERE'S RECALL ATTEMPTS MADE, THIS IS MESSAGE VERSUS MESSAGE.

THEY CAN MESSAGE SAYING THIS PERSON WANTS TO TAKE AWAY YOUR GUNS.

WHEN THE COUNTERMESSAGE IS NO, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE STORED SECURELY, PEOPLE MIGHT PAY ATTENTION ENOUGH TO RESONATE WITH THE MESSAGE.

>> CALL IN OUR GUEST TODAY SENATOR JEREMY MOSS.

CONGRATULATIONS AS ONE OF THE LEADERS IN THE STATE SENATE.

PUT YOUR LEADERSHIP HAT ON.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET SIX VOTES TO SEND THE $180 CHECK TO ALL CONSTITUENTS?

ARE YOU TALKING WITH THE R'S TO CONVINCE THEM TO VOTE YES?

>> WE'VE BEEN TALKING WITH THE MINORITY PARTY FOR A WHILE ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF VOTE.

WE HAVE A SECOND BITE AT THE APPLE TO GIVE THAT BIGGEST TAX CUT IN DECADES IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

WE ARE SEEING ADVOCACY GROUPS DO THE JOB FOR US.

POLICE, FIRE, OTHER GROUPS THAT ARE GOING TO BENEFIT FROM THE REPEAL OF THE RETIREMENT TAX, ARE CONTACTING REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS TO FIND THE SIX VOTES FOR US.

>> SENATOR, WILL YOU CHANGE THE RULES TO TAKE THEM OUT OF THE PLAY TOGETHER OR HONOR THE TRADITION OF THE SENATE ON THE IE VOTE?

>> THE FIRST OF IE IS UP FOR DISCUSSION, WE HAD A RESOLUTION THAT MADE ITS WAY TO THE GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS COMMITTEE TO COUNT IMMEDIATE EFFECT, JUST AS HOW THE REPUBLICANS, WHEN THEY WERE IN THE MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE HAD DONE, AND SO IT'S UP TO THE CHAIRWOMAN OF THE GOVERNMENT OPS COMMITTEE TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE.

>> THAT'S YOUR BOSS, THE HEAD OF THE SENATE.

IF YOU HAD TO VOTE ON IT TODAY, WOULD YOU CHANGE THE RULE?

>> IT'S BEEN WORKING JUST FINE WHEN WE WERE IN THE MINORITY, BUT WE DIDN'T ABUSE IT IN THE WAY THAT THERE HAVE BEEN THREATS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS NEW MINORITY.

SO WE WILL SEE.

>> WOULD YOU VOTE YES ON IT?

>> I DON'T HAVE TO VOTE YES OR NO ON IT.

IT'S GOING THROUGH THE COMMITTEE PROCESS.

IF IT GETS BROUGHT UP, I'M WILLING TO HEAR THE CASE TO CHANGE THE RULES.

>> I'M GOING LET YOU GET AWAY WITH THE PUNT.

SIMON, GO AHEAD.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE U.S. SENATE, THE JUDICIAL FILIBUSTER REMOVED DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THERE ARE INSTITUTIONALISTS, PEOPLE WHO CARE HOW THINGS ARE DONE PROCEDURALLY IN THE PAST.

THEY ARE ALSO ON YOUR SIDE OF THE AISLE.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW IF THEY MOVE FORWARD ON RESOLUTION 12, THAT YOU HAVE ENOUGH VOTES TO PASS THIS?

>> IT REALLY IS TRULY A DISCUSSION.

AGAIN, WE SERVED IN THE MINORITY, SO WE KNOW ALL OF THE DYNAMICS OF THE DISCUSSION AROUND IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

BUT THERE WAS A LONG AND DETAILED HISTORY, ABOUT IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

THOSE WHO SERVED AS SECRETARY OF THE SENATE OR ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE SENATE SAID IMMEDIATE EFFECT WAS NEVER ABUSED TO STOP KEY POLICY FROM MOVING FORWARD.

YOU VOTED AGAINST THE BILL BUT THEN VOTED FOR IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

WE'RE IN A NEW POLITICAL DYNAMIC.

THIS CAN BE FLUID.

THE DISCUSSION OF IMMEDIATE EFFECT, BASED ON THE BEHAVIOR OF THE REPUBLICAN MINORITY JUST IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS, MAKES THIS CONVERSATION FLUID.

>> WOULD YOU HAVE ANY APPETITE TO SEE THE TAX PROPOSAL SENT BACK TO CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, SENT BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT'S ON THE TABLE.

I THINK WE'RE VERY FIRM AND SET IN THE POLICY THAT WE PUT FORWARD, AND NOW WE HAVE THIS VOTE LINGERING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE REPUBLICAN MINORITIES JOIN ALL OF THE DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED FOR THE LARGEST TAX CUT IN MICHIGAN HISTORY.

AGAIN, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO BE THE DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY ENACTING PUNISHMENT ON THE REPUBLICAN MINORITY FOR THIS, IT'S GOING TO BE THE VOTERS, THE ADVOCACY VOTES, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE MOST IMPACTED BY THIS TAX CUT WHO ARE NOT GOING TO SEE THESE CHECKS OUT THE DOOR.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RETROACTIVELY APPLY FOR THE WORKING FAMILIES' TAX CREDIT.

THAT'S WHAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO THINK ABOUT.

>> WHAT ABOUT OFFERING SOMETHING TO THE REPUBLICANS LIKE MAYBE AN INCLUSIVE $500 PER CHILD TAX CREDIT, OR WHAT ABOUT RAISING A NONRESTRICTED DEDUCTIONS FOR WORKING SENIORS?

WOULD YOU HAVE APPETITE FOR BRINGING THAT TO THEM?

>> I THINK THE POLICY IN HOUSE BILL 4001 IS SET.

WE'VE DEBATED IT.

IT GOT THROUGH THE HOUSE.

IT GOT THROUGH THE SENATE.

THE LAST PIECE ARE THESE SIX VOTES.

I DON'T THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE CHANGING MUCH OF THE POLICY PROPOSAL.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE RELYING ON THOSE WHO WOULD BE MOST IMPACTED BY THE POLICY TO CONTACT THEIR LEGISLATORS.

>> SENATOR, LET ME THROW ANOTHER MONEY ISSUE AT YOU FOR THE STATE.

THE GOVERNOR JUST ANNOUNCED THE BIG EV PLANT THAT'S GOING TO BE IN MARSHALL, MICHIGAN, THAT GOT OVERSHADOWED BY THE TRAGEDY AT MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS FOR THE WHOLE PROJECT.

NOW THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER $750 MILLION.

IS THIS A GOOD RETURN ON OUR INVESTMENT?

>> I THINK THAT ANY TIME THAT WE INVEST IN OUR HOMEGROWN INDUSTRY, THE AUTO INDUSTRY HERE IN MICHIGAN, IT HAS A LARGE OUTSIZED IMPACT IN JUST THE SINGULAR ENTITY THAT WE'RE INVESTING IN, AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE I THINK IT'S THE CHIPS ACT OR OTHER FEDERAL ACT THAT REALLY NARROWS THE WINDOW WHERE WE CAN SET UP THE BATTERY PLANTS.

WHERE THE BATTERY GOES, SO DOES THE WHOLE CAR.

THIS IS GOING TO HAVE AN OVERSIZED IMPACT THAN JUST THIS ONE PROJECT, THAT'S NOT TO DISMISS THE BENEFITS OF THIS ONE PROJECT HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

SO THIS IS A WIN FOR MICHIGAN.

IT CERTAINLY HAS INCREASED THE CALL TO LOOK AT HOW WE DO THESE TYPE OF INCENTIVE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS.

BUT ON THIS ONE, THIS HAS BEEN VETTED UP AND DOWN, AND NO STATE MORE THAN MICHIGAN THAT UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORTANCE OF INVESTING IN AUTO INDUSTRY.

>> ARE THERE SECURITY RISKS INVOLVED WITH THIS?

YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT PARTNERED WITH, BUT THERE IS ALLIANCE IN TERMS OF THE TRADE INFORMATION THAT FORD IS SHARING WITH A COMPANY FROM CHINA.

GIVEN ALL THAT'S GOING ON IN THE INTERNATIONAL FRONT AND RUSSIA AND CHINA AND UKRAINE, ARE WE PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK HERE?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

AND I THINK THAT THAT CONVERSATION HAS BEEN VETTED THOROUGHLY JUST IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS THAT WHILE WE'RE USING TECHNOLOGY THAT MAY COME FROM CHINA, CHINA DOESN'T REAP THE REWARDS FROM THIS.

THEY DON'T EARN ANY DOLLARS ON THE INVESTMENT.

THIS IS JUST NARROW TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS ONLY AVAILABLE IN THAT SPACE THAT HAD TO BE UTILIZED FOR THIS PLANT.

SO I THINK -- WE WOULD NOT BE PUTTING OURSELVES AT RISK WITH THIS TYPE OF INVESTMENT, AND THE SECURITIES ARE THERE.

>> SENATOR, IS IT A FAIR STATEMENT THAT YOU AS AND SENATOR McDOOM TRY TO CHANGE THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT, THAT THE GOVERNOR REFUSES TO SIGN OFF ON WHAT YOU DO?

>> THAT IS NOT TRUE, WE ARE IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION WITH THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE WHERE TO GO.

SHE HAS REQUESTS FOR BEING IN THIS ACT FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, IT'S BEEN A HEALTHY DIALOGUE BETWEEN A LEGISLATURE THAT'S GOING TO PASS THIS AND A GOVERNOR THAT'S GOING TO SIGN THIS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO BACK AND FORTH ON SOMETHING WE ALL CAN'T AGREE UPON.

WE'VE BEEN IN CONSTANT CONVERSATION WITH A GOOD FAITH PARTNER IN GOVERNOR WHITMER.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK YOU ARE GOING TO TALK THIS TO DEATH AND NEVER GET A VOTE?

>> MAYBE A CERTAIN HOST OF A PROGRAM SAID WE WOULD NEVER GOING TO GET IT OUT OF LEGISLATURE, NEVER GET IT OUT OF HEARING IN SENATE.

WE MADE SLOW AND STEADY PROGRESS EVERY SINGLE SESSION, AND WE'RE IN THE FINAL ACT OF THIS TRYING TO GET A PRODUCT THAT HAS SIGN-OFF FROM BOTH CHAMBERS IN THE LEGISLATURE.

>> WHAT IS THE GOVERNOR'S BIGGEST BEEF?

WHAT IS SHE AFRAID OF?

>> SHE'S NOT AFRAID OF ANYTHING, BUT AGAIN, THE SYSTEM IS NOT IN PLACE FOR THE GOVERNOR TO BE SUBJECTED TO A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST.

THIS REQUIRES STAFF.

THIS REQUIRES PROCESSES.

SHE HAS TO KNOW HOW THE PROCESSES WORK IN HER OFFICE.

>> WITH THE OPEN RECORDS ACT THAT APPLIES TO THE LEGISLATURE AND GOVERNOR, WITH NEW DEMOCRATIC MAJORITIES OSTENSIBLY IN FAVOR OF THIS THAN THE PRIOR REPUBLICAN AUTHORITIES, SHOULD THIS BE AS ROBUST AS THE REST OF THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT THAT APPLIES TO THE REST OF STATE GOVERNMENT?

>> YEAH, AND THE BILLS WE DRAFTED EVERY SINGLE TIME HAVE REPLICATED THE FRAMEWORK OF THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT.

SO WE'VE STARTED THERE, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THOSE ARE THE PRINCIPLES THAT ARE APPLIED WHEN SOMEBODY WANTS TO REQUEST THE SAME INFORMATION FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

>> I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW ELIOT LARSON EXPANSION BILL WAS MOVED TO THE ORDER OF THIRD READINGS TO BE VOTED ON IN THE SENATE.

COULD YOU TELL US WHAT YOU ARE EXPECTING TO COME OUT OF THAT VOTE?

>> I'M SORRY, MY CONNECTION CUT OFF JUST THERE, SORRY ABOUT THAT.

>> NO, YEAH, OF COURSE.

ELIOT LARSON CIVIL RIGHTS ACT EXPANSION BILL TO ADD CIVIL RIGHTS PROTECTIONS TO MEMBERS OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY WAS PLACED ON THE ORDER OF THIRD READINGS TO BE TAKEN UP FOR A VOTE.

COULD YOU TELL US WHAT YOU'RE EXPECTING?

>> EXPECTING A HUGE WIN.

A CHANGE IN HOW WE EMBRACE OUR LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

HOW WE PROTECT THEM FROM DISCRIMINATION.

AS YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BEEN 50 YEARS IN THE MAKING.

THE ELIOT LARSON CIVIL RIGHTS ACT WAS FIRST INTRODUCED IN 1973, SO 50 YEARS AGO, ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN TRYING TO INCLUDE LGBTQ PROTECTIONS.

THIS IS SIGNIFICANT FOR OUR COMMUNITY TO EXPERIENCE HOUSING SECURITY, EMPLOYMENT SECURITY, AND REALLY IMPACT THE ECONOMY OVERALL HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, WE TAKE THIS HISTORIC VOTE, AND USHER IN AT LONG LAST EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW FOR LGBTQ MICHIGANDERS JUST LIKE OTHER PROTECTED CLASSES IN THE ACT HAVE ENJOYED OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS.

>> SENATOR, LET ME GO BACK TO WHAT TIM TALKED ABOUT IN THE TOP OF THE SHOW IN TERMS OF THE GUN ISSUE.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THREATS FROM THE GUN LOBBIES AND GUN GROUPS SAYING THEY WILL TARGET CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS IN TERMS OF A RECALL, IF THEY DECIDE TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL?

>> SO GOING INTO THIS HISTORIC DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 40 YEARS, WE ALWAYS KNEW COULD THIS HAVE BEEN ON THE REPUBLICAN PLAYBOOK.

THIS IS HOW THEY STOLE THE MAJORITY FROM THE DEMOCRATS AS TIM MENTIONED 40 YEARS AGO.

I'M THE SENATOR FROM PONTIAC AND THE SENATOR FROM PONTIAC WAS ONE OF THOSE FOR RECALL.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE THOUGHT ABOUT AS AN OPTION.

ON THIS ISSUE IN PARTICULAR, I THINK THEY'RE CHOOSING THE WRONG ISSUE.

IF YOU LOOK AT SUPPORT FOR WHAT WE'RE DOING, THERE WAS A RECENT POLL THAT SHOWED SAFE STORAGE LAWS HAVE 60% OF SUPPORT FROM MICHIGAN RESPONDENTS WHO WERE POLLED.

RED FLAG LAWS, 75%.

UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, 90%.

SO I ALMOST DRAW A PARALLEL TO PROPOSAL 3 FROM LAST YEAR.

I THINK THE ANTIABORTION SIDE OF THAT ISSUE WAS ALLOWED, BUT IT WASN'T THE PREVAILING -- WASN'T WHERE THE POPULATION WAS, AND I THINK THAT IF THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO RECALL US ON THE GUN LAWS THAT WE'RE PROPOSING, POPULATION IS NOT GOING TO BE THERE.

>> SENATOR, YOU'RE A WELL-ESTABLISHED POLITICIAN AND LEGISLATOR IN LANSING.

YOU'VE HAD A CHANCE TO BUILD A POLITICAL WAR CHEST, YOU HAVE A STRONG CONSTITUENCY.

WHAT ABOUT THAT LEGISLATOR WHO JUST RECENTLY GOT TO LANCING AND DOESN'T HAVE ALL OF THAT?

>> I TRULY BELIEVE THIS, I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOCRATS WHO ARE READY TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL, THERE ARE FOLKS WHO FEEL LIKE THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE THEY CAN VOTE ON, SO WHEN THEY'RE DECIDING BETWEEN THEIR POLITICAL FUTURE AND SAVING LIVES, THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO CHOOSE SAVING LIVES.

THE POLICY WILL PRODUCE GOOD POLITICS BECAUSE I TRULY BELIEVE MOST OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, INCLUDING RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS, ARE SUPPORTIVE OF OUR EFFORTS TO REDUCE GUN DEATHS AND INJURIES IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

COULD THIS BE SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT VOTES WE TAKE AND I DON'T SEE ANYONE SHYING AWAY FROM THAT.

>> SENATOR, VERY QUICKLY, IS THERE A CHANCE YOU COULD GIVE REPUBLICANS THE TRIGGER ON ROLLING BACK THE INCOME TAX RATE, OR IS THAT JUST DEAD?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A FLUID DISCUSSION, I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR YOU TODAY ON THIS PROGRAM, BUT WE WILL SEE.

>> WILL YOU CALL ME WHEN YOU GET AN ANSWER, SENATOR?

>> IF YOU INVITE ME BACK, I'LL BE RIGHT BACK ON.

>> GOOD DEAL.

SENATOR, HAVE A GOOD, SAFE WEEKEND.

THANKS TO OUR PANEL.

SAM, NICE TO HAVE YOU ON BOARD ON "OFF THE RECORD."

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK RIGHT HERE.

>> PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" VISIT -- MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD."