>> "DONNYBROOK" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINEPBS.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF "DONNYBROOK."

PRETTY COLD OUTSIDE.

HOPE YOU'RE WARM AND COZY INSIDE OR WHEREVER YOU ARE BECAUSE WE HAVE QUITE A FEW TOPICS COMING YOUR WAY.

AND WE WELCOME LATER ON THE PROGRAM WHAT WE CALL "DONNYBROOK" NEXT UP, JEFF SMITH FROM THE MISSOURI WORK FORCE HOUSING ASSOCIATION, TRYING TO INCREASE AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND HE'S ALSO WORKING TO IMPROVE THE CONDITIONS AT THE COUNTY JAIL.

SO WE'LL TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT.

LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION ON NINEPBS.

THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550, KTRS, WENDY WIESE, ALSO COHOST OF JENNIFER AND WENDY.

HE'S MR. BILL MCCLELLAN, OUR TOM BRADY HERE AT "DONNYBROOK."

OF COURSE HE'S WITH THE ST. LOUIS POST DISPATCH.

AND WE HAVE RAY HARTMANN, ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS FROM THE BIG 550, KTRS, AS WELL AS ROSSSTORY.COM AND THE RIVERFRONT TIMES.

AND WE WELCOME MR. ALVIN REID FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, ALONG WITH 590AM AND 97.1FM.

ALVIN, WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU BECAUSE IT'S NOT EVERY DAY THAT YOU SEE INMATES AT ANY CORRECTIONAL FACILITY PUPPING TOUR THE EXTERIOR WALL -- PUNCTURE THE EXTERIOR WALL AND BASICALLY WAVE TO BY STANDERS AS THEY SET FIRE TO BEDDING MATERIAL AND HOLD UP SIGNS AND THROW THINGS THAT ARE ON FIRE OUT THE FOURTH FLOOR.

AND IF YOU DRIVE BY TUCKER TODAY YOU'LL SEE THE CITY JAIL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS, WHICH HAS THE SCAR MARKS FROM A FIRE AND THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING IS ALL BOARDED UP THERE.

REALLY UNUSUAL, BUT IT WAS THE THIRD DISTURBANCE, THIS TIME A RIOT OVER THE WEEKEND, WHERE INMATES WERE ABLE TO JIMMY LOCKS AND GET OUT OF THEIR CELLS AND GET TO A CONTROL PANEL AND THEN OPEN UP THE CELLS OF OTHERS.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE CALL IN CORRECTIONAL CIRCLES NOT A GOOD THING.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> WELL, TO BE LIGHT ON A VERY SERIOUS STORY, IT'S LIKE HANGING THE KEYS NEXT TO THE JAIL FOR OTIS THE DRUNK TO GET OUT ON MAYBERRY WHEN HE SOBERS UP.

THE LOCKS HAVE TO WORK FIRST OF ALL.

TWO, IT'S TO THE POINT NOW WHEREVERRY IMAGE OF ST. LOUIS AND MISSOURI, IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE A COMMERCIAL OF WHY NOT TO RELOCATE HERE, HOW ABOUT THAT JAIL SITUATION.

YOU KNOW, WHAT'S GOING ON THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND IT'S JUST I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE CAN'T GET THE SIMPLEST OF THINGS RIGHT AND IT CAUSES THESE MAGNIFICENT PROBLEMS.

I THINK WE'RE UNIQUE THAT WAY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS BUT SOMEBODY'S GOT TO DO SOMETHING AND FAST, AND JUST SEEMS LIKE THERE'S NOBODY THAT WANTS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING IN ST. LOUIS, LET ALONE THAT JAIL.

>> THE CRAZY THING TO ME IS THERE'S THE BIG DEBATE ABOUT CORRECTIONS RIGHT NOW IS CLOSING THE WORK HOUSE.

AND YET HERE'S THE JUSTICE CENTER, THE NEW SHOW PLACE, THE LOCKS DON'T WORK, JIMMY EDWARDS SAID, WELL, THE WORK HOUSE IS MORE SECURE.

AND PEOPLE WANT TO GET OUT OF THE JUSTICE CENTER.

IF THE WORK HOUSE IS SUPERIOR, WHY ARE WE CLOSING THE WORK HOUSE TO KEEP THE JUSTICE CENTER OPEN WHERE THE LOCKS DON'T EVEN WORK?

I MEAN -- >> I DON'T THINK THE WORK HOUSE IS SUPERIOR, AND I THINK THEY'RE UNRELATED.

I THINK THE WORK HOUSE IS PRETTY WELL-KNOWN, AS ARGUABLY THE WORST, AT LEAST UP UNTIL NOW, THE WORST JAIL IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI.

AND WHAT THE TWO ISSUES HAVE IN COMMON IS WE NEED TO INCARCERATE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF PEOPLE, BUT NOT FOR MONTHS OR MAYBE MORE THAN A YEAR WITHOUT EVEN GIVING THEM A PRELIMINARY HEARING.

THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY SENTENCED BEFORE THEY EVEN GET A HEARING, AND WE DON'T NEED TO HAVE THEM GETTING COVID-19.

SO THERE'S SOME REAL ISSUES HERE.

>> I'M NOT ARGUING THAT -- >> I THOUGHT THIS WASN'T RELATED TO COVID, RAY.

>> WHAT?

>> I THOUGHT THIS WASN'T RELATED TO COVID.

>> THAT'S NOT -- >> WHEN THEY WENT TO THE WINDOW THEY HELD UP FOUR OR FIVE SIGNS, AND NONE OF THEM SAID P.P.E.

AND SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S OVER COVID-19, BUT THAT'S REALLY WHY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ARTS CITY DEFENDERS AS WELL AS THE ACL EXPU TO BE HONEST YOURS TRULY HAVE ASKED TO GET INSIDE THERE TO LOOK AROUND AND ASK QUESTIONS.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, I GOT SOME EMAILS AND TEXTS FROM PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE AS WELL AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE FAMILY THERE AND ONE GUY SAID IT'S A MODERN DAY GULAG, BUT HIS FAMILY MEMBER IS ATRADE TO SPEAK OUT BECAUSE THE TRIAL IS UPCOMING AND THEY'RE AFRAID THE CORRECTION SYSTEM WILL WORK AGAINST HIM IF HE SAYS ANYTHING.

SO I THINK OUTSIDERS HAVE TO GO IN THERE AND SEE WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> I WOULD AGREE.

BUT ALSO, WHEN YOU HAVE A SITUATION LIKE THAT, JUST ANY KIND OF JAIL FRACAS, PRISON RIOT, ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THE FIRST THING IS YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

AND HOW DO WE STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

I FEEL BAD FOR ANYBODY IN JAIL WHO IS, YOU KNOW, JUSTIFIABLY THERE, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MURDERERS AND ALL THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM IN THE JAIL.

YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM IN THEIR CELL.

I MEAN WE COULD TALK ABOUT ALL THE SOCIOLOGICAL AND FINANCIAL AND ALL THAT.

BUT IF YOU FAIL AT THAT, THEN YOU HAVE RIOTS, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU CAN'T HAVE.

>> CHARLIE, DIDN'T YOU TAKE A TOUR OF THE WORK HOUSE?

>> I DID.

I DID TAKE A TOUR OF THE WORK HOUSE, BUT NOT THE CITY JAIL.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T REALLY SEE WHAT WAS BEING REPORTED, CORRECT?

>> WHAT WAS REPORTED IS THAT THERE WAS MOLD ALL OVER THE PLACE, EXTREME TEMPERATURES, AND THE PLACE SMELLED, AND THERE WAS ALL SORTS OF TRASH AND RUBBISH AND WAS NOT KEPT UP.

THAT I DID NOT SEE.

>> OKAY, SO I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE ANYTHING, MY POINT IS I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE ANYTHING AT THE JUSTICE CENTER EEFORTS IF YOU TAKE A GUIDED TOUR.

>> IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE, AND THAT'S THE HOPE YOU HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO INDIVIDUALS AND FIND OUT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, AND THERE IS EITHER MOLD OR A SMELL OR THERE'S NOT.

PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THERE'S FECES SMEARED AGAINST THE DOORS, THAT THERE'S URINE ON THE FLOOR, THAT IT'S TOO COLD IN THE WINTER, THAT THE FOOD IS HORRENDOUS.

SO I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE FOOD.

>> I COMMEND YOU FOR DOING THAT, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THE ROLE THAT'S MOST IMPORTANT FOR WHETHER IT'S THE PUBLIC DEFENDER, WHO I HAD ON THIS WEEK, OR THE ACLU OR OTHERS IS TO HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK IT MAKES SENSE.

A LOT OF THIS IS COMMON SENSE.

BUT TO THE EXTENT YOU'RE GOING TO BE BRINGING PEOPLE IN TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING THAT'S URGENT IN THE NEXT TWO MONTHS, SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO BE IN THE ROOM FIGURING OUT WHAT TO DO.

THE NEW MAYOR, WHO EVER HE OR SHE IS, SHOULDN'T BE INHERITING SOMEBODY ELSE'S TASK FORCE ON THIS.

IF THEY WANT TO DO A TASK FORCE GOING FORWARD, I GUESS THAT'S FINE.

>> CERTAINLY FOR THE LOCKS AND FOOD, THAT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED IMMEDIATELY.

>> THAT'S COMMON SENSE STUFF.

>> EVERYBODY ON THE PANEL IS SAYING -- YOU NEED TO HAVE LOCKS THAT WORK ON A CELL.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PANEL, AND I APPROVE OF THE PANEL, SHE ORIGINALLY GOT MIKE WOLFF, FORMER DEAN OF THE LAW SCHOOL, HE HAS SINCE STEPPED ASIDE.

BUT SHE HAS ADOLPHUS PRUITT, FORMER SENATOR NASHEED, TWO ALDERMEN, VACCARO AND BOYD, THE PUBLIC HEALTH EXECUTIVE, CHARLES NORRIS FROM THE ST. JAMES A.M.E. CHURCH, BRAD HOMPE.

AND THEN THE REVEREND DARRYL GRAY.

ALL GREAT PEOPLE, BUT BILL MCCLELLAN, I THINK THEY'RE TOO CONNECTED, AND ESPECIALLY THE POLITICIANS WHO ARE VULNERABLE TO PUBLIC OPINION.

I THINK THEY NEED SOME OUTSIDERS WHO ARE COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT WITH NO DOG IN THE HUNT, NO AX TO GRIND AND THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, BILL?

>> I DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF LOCAL PEOPLE AND ACCOUNTABLE AND THE PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED, NASHEED AND GRAY, ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND I TRUST THEM.

BUT I TEND TO AGREE WITH RAY, THAT FIRST OF ALL WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A NEW MAYOR AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT MAYOR SHOULD BE CONSTRAINED BY AN OLD PANEL.

BUT MOSTLY, LIKE RAY SAID, THIS IS COMMON SENSE, THIS IS LIKE THE 9/11 STUFF.

DO YOU REALLY NEED A PANEL TO DETERMINE THAT 9/11 CALLS SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY OVER NONEMERGENCY?

NO, THAT'S COMMON SENSE.

DO WE NEED A PANEL TO SAY THAT THE CELLS SHOULD LOCK?

NO, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE LOCKED UP.

AND SO I THINK FOR AS FAR AS THE CONDITIONS GO, I AGREE WITH EVERYBODY ELSE THAT YOU DON'T REALLY LEARN ABOUT CONDITIONS IN JAIL FROM HAVING A GUIDED TOUR, YOU LEARN FROM, LIKE YOU'RE DOING, TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THERE, TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE.

AND I THINK THAT'S ALL BETTER, REALLY, THAN A PANEL.

>> BUT, BILL, THOSE INDIVIDUALS TOO HAVE THEIR SAY, YOU WORK THERE, YOU'RE INCARCERATED THERE, BUT YOU'VE GOT AN AX TO GRIND AS WELL, THE GUY WHO WORKS THERE IS GOING TO SAY IT'S REALLY GOOD.

THE GUY WHO IS INCARCERATED IS SAYING IT'S THE WORST PLACE.

IT'S REALLY HARD.

YOU HAVE TO GO IN THERE.

THEY HAVE TO BE INSIDE, YOU CAGE JUST RELY ON ANYBODY, THE DEFENDERS OR THE PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, YOU HAVE TO BE INSIDE AND TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

>> BUT JUDGE EDWARDS SAID HIMSELF THAT THESE WERE SERIOUS OFFENDERS, YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ACCUSED OFFENDERS, YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PARKING TICKETS HERE.

AND IF HUMAN WASTE IS BEING SMEARED ON THE WALL OR WHEREVER, THE PEOPLE DOING THAT FROM INSIDE SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED.

AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE FOOD -- GO AHEAD.

>> IF TRUE, GO AHEAD.

>> IF TRUE, IF TRUE.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE FOOD, TRY NOT TO COMMIT A CRIME.

I MEAN THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEVER HEAR WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

I KNOW THAT SOUNDS SIMPLISTIC, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THE HILTON.

THE FOOD, AND WHEN ALVIN WAS TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE FROM OUT OF STATE JUDGING ST. LOUIS BASED ON THE JAILS, I WOULD RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LOT OF ATTENTION PAID TO JAIL CONDITIONS WHEN PEOPLE ARE MAKING DECISIONS TO RELOCATE, I JUST DON'T.

I'M SURE -- >> NO, LIKE, I AGREE WITH YOU, WHAT THE HELL WAS I TALKING ABOUT?

OKAY, THERE'S OTHER THINGS.

BUT I WANT TO SAY ABOUT JUDGE WOLFF, BRILLIANT MAN, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE HE WAS ON OUR SHOW, YOU KNOW.

TWO DAYS LATER, HE HAD THIS EPIPHANY THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING HAPPENED, SOMETHING CHANGED HIS MIND, I COULD SEE SOMEBODY WALKED IN THAT ROOM AND IT'S JONES' FAULT, AND HE JUST SAID THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

SO SOMETHING HAPPENED TO MAKE HIM BACK AWAY FROM THE RESPONSIBILITY.

THAT'S WHAT I THINK.

>> I WANT TO RESPOND.

IT'S ONE THING -- I DON'T THINK ANYONE, EVEN THE MOST REFORM MINDED PERSON ON THIS SUBJECT THINKS THAT A JAIL NEEDS TO BE THE HILTON.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS, IT ALSO DOESN'T NEED TO BE A -- >> GUANTANAMO, I GET THAT.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO BE WATER BOARDED.

BUT IF THE INMATES, AS ACCUSED, DON'T STOP SMEARING BAD THINGS ON THE WALLS -- >> RAY IS RIGHT.

THE CONDITIONS SHOULD BE DECENT.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO -- >> YOU CAN'T HAVE INHUMANE CONDITIONS.

>> I AGREE.

>> HERE'S THE BIG ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

DURING COVID SOME OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN THERE FOR YEARS, AND NEITHER THE CITY JAIL NOR THE COUNTY JAIL HAS ANY SUNLIGHT, THERE'S NO OUTDOOR RECREATION AREA, SO ONE GUY IS IN THE COUNTY JAIL, GOING TO THE COUNTY FOR A MINUTE, HE'S BEEN IN THERE FIVE YEARS, THAT MEANS HE HASN'T HAD SUNLIGHT IN FIVE YEARS.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

WHAT HAPPENED TO GUMBO PLANT, THAT WOULD HAVE PLAN BETTER.

>> I AGREE, BUT WE NEED ANOTHER ONE.

>> I DON'T HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY MIKE DECIDED TO GET ON THIS THING, BUT YOU NAME CHECKED ONE OF MIKE'S FAVORITE LINES ON THIS SUBJECT, TO WHAT CHARLIE IS SAYING IS, 99% OF OUR INMATES ARE COMING OUT SOMEHOW, SOMETIME, HOW DO YOU WANT THEM, YOU KNOW.

AND IT GOES TO WHAT CHARLIE IS SAYING, HOW DO YOU WANT THEM, YOU WANT TO EFFECTIVELY TORTURE PEOPLE IN JAILS BECAUSE WE WANT TO BE TOUGH ON CRIME?

>> THAT'S NOT -- >> WENDY, I DON'T THINK YOU GET TO COMPLAIN ABOUT YOUR FOOD -- >> YES YOU DO.

>> WHEN YOU'RE IN JAIL.

I GUARANTEE YOU, IT'S BETTER THAN PROBABLY 30% OF AMERICA IS EATING TONIGHT, I'M SORRY.

THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF CONDITIONS, BUT -- >> OKAY, GUYS, IN THE INTEREST OF TIME LET'S MOVE ON.

BUT WE'LL REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT JEFF SMITH KNOWS A THING OR TWO ABOUT THESE ISSUES, IN FACT NOW HE'S ON THE COUNTY JUSTICE SERVICES ADVISORY BOARD, HE MAY OPINIONS ON THE CITY JAIL AS WELL AND INCARCERATION IN GENERAL.

WE MOVE ONTO YOU, RAY HARTMANN, BECAUSE LIEUTENANT COLONEL TROY DOYLE HAS OFFICIALLY SUED ST. LOUIS COUNTY, IN COURT HIS ATTORNEYS JERRY DOBSON, WE'LL BE -- HE'LL BE ON YOUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

I DON'T KNOW DOYLE, BUT I READ HIS TWEETS, SEEMS LIKE A GREAT GUY.

HE IS ALLEGING THAT HE WAS NOT PROMOTED TO CHIEF OF POLICE IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY BECAUSE HE IS BLACK AND THAT HE WAS PROMISED THE JOB BY ST. LOUIS COUNTY EXECUTIVE SAM PAGE.

BUT THEN SAM PAGE SAID THAT MEMBERS OF THE POLICE FOUNDATION AND CIVIC PROGRESS DIDN'T WANT A BLACK GUY IN THAT POSITION.

NOW, I RESPECT THE WORK THAT DOYLE HAS DONE AND I THINK DOBSON IS A GREAT GUY, BUT DON'T UNFIND IT A LITTLE HARD TO BELIEVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT PEOPLE AT THESE TOP CORPORATIONS WHEN THINGS ARE SO SENSITIVE IN SO MANY WAYS, WOULD REALLY COMMIT WHAT IS BEING ALLEGED HERE?

>> IF YOU READ THE LAWSUIT, AND YOU READ THE LITANY, WHICH WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO THROUGH, STEP BY STEP, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S IN DISPUTE, AS YOU SAY IT'S ALL ALLEGATIONS, BUT WHEN TROY DOYLE WAS INVITED TO SAM PAGE'S HOUSE AND TOLD THAT HE WAS THE GUY AND THAT WE NEEDED A BLACK POLICE CHIEF, WHICH I THINK THEY DO, AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO GET HIM ACROSS THE FINISH LINE ALL THE WAY THROUGH, AND YOU FOLLOW THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS AND THERE WERE SOME LITTLE THINGS IN THERE ABOUT, AGAIN, WE'LL SEE IF THEY'RE TRUE, SOMEBODY ASKED SHOULD DOGAN'S PEOPLE RAISE MONEY, A WHOLE LITANY OF THINGS.

IT REALLY, LET'S JUST SAY I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE ON THE RECEIVING END OF THAT LAWSUIT.

>> WELL, AGAIN, THESE ARE ALLEGATIONS AND IT WILL BE DOBSON'S RESPONSIBILITY THROUGH DISCOVERY OR WHATEVER TO SHOW THROUGH TEXTS OR RECORDED MESSAGES OVER THE PHONE OR WHATEVER THAT THE THINGS THAT ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE SAID WERE ACTUALLY SAID.

>> WE'RE NOT IN A POSITION TO JUDGE IT, OTHER THAN HAVING, BEING ON THE RECEIVING END OF IT.

>> YOU PHRASED THE QUESTION AS DO YOU BELIEVE THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THESE CORPORATIONS WITH EVERYTHING BEING SO SENSITIVE, YES I DO, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THE STUPIDITY TRAIN IS JUST, IS OFF THE TRACKS.

IT'S SO WILD.

SHOULD THEY?

OKAY, WOULD THEY?

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT COULD THEY?

ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW.

IT'S JUST UNBELIEVABLE THAT ANY OF THIS IS HAPPENING.

YOU'RE TRADING EMAILS THAT ARE LIKE SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THE BLACK GUY?

WHAT IS THAT?

>> AND WHAT IS EVEN MORE UNBELIEVABLE, TO ME, IS THAT SAM PAGE CAN GO, HE CAN SORT OF SHAPE SHIFT BETWEEN THE BOARD WILL DO WHAT I TELL THEM TO DO, TO IF YOU BELIEVE THE LAWSUIT, WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M GETTING A LOT OF PUSHBACK AND I JUST DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE, OR WHATEVER HE USED.

THAT, IT ALMOST READS LIKE A TELL A NOVELLA.

>> AS A TAXPAYER, I DON'T HAVE MUCH FAITH IN SAM PAGE OR BETH WARWICK, THE COUNTY COUNSELOR THESE DAYS, I'M AFRAID THIS IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER WILD CASE, WHERE THEY'RE CONVINCED THEY'RE ON GOOD GROUND AND THEN THERE'S A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR JUDGMENT.

SO I HOPE IF WE HAVE BETH WARWICK -- >> AND >> SHE'S TALKING ALREADY, I HOPE, ABOUT -- >> THERE'S -- >> DOUG MOORE IS A COLLEAGUE OF MINE.

THE WHINEY EMAIL SENT ABOUT I THOUGHT YOU WERE MY FRIEND AND NOW YOU'RE GOING TO RATHER MAKE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN STATE JUSTICE?

>> I AGREE HE SHOULDN'T HAVE PUT IT IN A TEXT, BUT WHAT MOORE IS SAYING IS THAT HE ALLEGED LAST SUMMER THAT DOYLE THREATENED TO GO PUBLIC UNLESS THERE WAS A SETTLEMENT AND THREATENED TO GO PUBLIC BEFORE THE ELECTION OR THE PRIMARY ELECTION, WHERE SAM PAGE WAS SWEARING OFF AGAINST MARK MONTEVANI.

BUT CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, HOW WAS IT THAT L.J.

PUNCH, AFRICAN-AMERICAN REPRESENTATIVE ON THE POLICE BOARD, AND NOT SOMEONE WHO IS TOLD WHAT TO DO AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, SHE VOTED FOR MARY BARTON.

>> YES.

>> YOU KNOW, CHARLIE, IT'S INTERESTING YOU BRING HER UP, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT JURORS, AND I CERTAINLY COULDN'T BE ONE IMPARTIALLY, BUT YOU ASKED WHAT I THOUGHT, AND I KNOW SO MANY PEOPLE CONNECTED, I'D SAY, THAT ACROSS RACIAL LINES THAT BELIEVE THAT TROY DOYLE WOULD HAVE BEEN A DRAMATICALLY BETTER CHOICE THAN MARY BARTON, FOR WHATEVER, I'VE JUST HEARD IT SO OFTEN IT'S KIND OF HARD TO GO INTO THIS AND THINK THAT TROY DOYLE DOESN'T HAVE A PINE -- A POINT HERE.

>> HE OUTRANKS HER, HE WAS INVITED TO PAGE'S HOUSE, HE WAS BEING INTRODUCED TO THE FORMER CHIEFS OF POLICE TO TALK ABOUT HOW TO LEARN PRIMERS ON HOW TO BE THE CHIEF OF THE COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND THEN BOOM.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A BAD LAWSUIT FOR THE COUNTY.

>> THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS, OF COURSE, AND WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT WAS SAID IN THOSE MEETINGS WITH RICHARD CALLOW, SAM PAGE, TOM ERWIN, SAM DOTSON AND ALL THE OTHERS, THEY'LL HAVE A CHANCE TO SAY WHAT WAS SAID.

AND MAYBE THEY'LL CORROBORATE HIS FINDINGS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU FOLKS ABOUT THE AT&T BUILDING, RAY HEART RAY HARTMANN, IT'S ON THE AUCTION BLOCK, NEXT MONTH, DOWN TUNE ST. LOUIS, IT WAS A 204 MILLION-DOLLAR BUILDING AT ONE POINT.

THEN BOB CLARK, FORMER GUEST ON THE SHOW, OFFERED 20 MILLION FOR IT NOT THAT LONG AGO.

IT'S GOING TO GO ON THE AUCTION BLOCK, A SKY SCRAPER STARTING AT 2.85 MILLION, LESS THAN A HOME IN TOWN AND COUNTRY.

IT'S A SKYSCRAPER, DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS, NEXT TO THE CITY GARDEN.

WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S JUST THE LEGACY OF DOWNTOWN.

THIS GOES BACK DECADES, BUT THE POWERS THAT BE DOWNTOWN MADE A DECISION IN THE 70'S AND 80'S THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BUILD A LOT OF BUILDINGS LIKE THIS, IN THE 90'S.

THE GLEAMING SKYSCRAPERS.

I HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT AT THAT IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN THEY WERE JUST DISMISSIVE OF THE VALUE OF HISTORIC PRESERVATION, AND I CAN REMEMBER THE TITLE GUARANTEE, THE INTERNATIONAL BUILDING, AND MANY OTHERS THAT WERE DISREGARDED BECAUSE THEY, HISTORIC PRESERVATION WASN'T SOMETHING THEY WANTED TO DO.

I THINK IT'S SORT OF A METAPHOR FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO DOWNTOWN.

>> THEY COULD MAKE IT A JAIL.

>> WE KNOCK DOWN THE HISTORICAL JAIL, THAT'S IT.

>> PART OF THIS, THOUGH, IS YOU CAN'T REALLY BLAME ANYBODY.

WHO KNEW THAT WE WOULD HAVE A PANDEMIC AND PEOPLE WOULD WORK REMOTE AND THAT DOWNTOWN REAL ESTATE, I MEAN WE'VE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES.

WE KNEW THAT THE THIRD RUNWAY AT LAMBERT WHERE WE TORE DOWN A GOOD CHUNK OF BRIDGETON FOR A RUNWAY THAT'S BEEN UNUSED, YOU KNOW, THE DOWNTOWN THAT WOULD RIVAL CHICAGO'S.

>> I'M THE LAST PERSON -- I GET IT.

>> I THINK THE CITY NEEDS TO BE WIDE, OR WHO EVER OWNS IT AND IS SELLING IT, OR AUCTIONING IT, HAS TO BE WISE TO, IF I GET IT, I THINK I COULD DO SOMETHING WITH IT.

LIKE LET'S TRY TO BRING ONE SPECIFIC BUSINESS IN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND JUST BRING PEOPLE.

>> I THINK IT'S A CHICKEN OR THE EGG SITUATION.

YOU'VE GOT THIS CRIME PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN SPIRALING OUT OF CONTROL DOWNTOWN, EVEN PREPANDEMIC.

THERE IS NOBODY TO BLAME, THERE'S NOBODY TO BLAME.

BUT IT ALSO LEADS BACK TO THE CONDITIONS AT THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER AND LOCK HANDLES THAT DON'T WORK.

THERE'S JUST NO MONEY.

THERE'S NO MONEY.

>> REMEMBER WHEN WE TRIED TO GIVE DOWNTOWN TO JEFF BEZOS WHEN AMAZON -- >> CHARLIE, ONE POINT, I THINK WHEN THE HISTORY OF ST. LOUIS IS WRITTEN, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE DONE SYSTEMATIC ALLY IS TO UNDERVALUE HISTORICAL STRUCTURES THAT OTHER COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE.

>> I AGREE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS STANDING THERE BEFORE WHAT THEY TORE DOWN.

SO I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS THERE.

>> WENDY WIESE, SCOTT SIFTON HAS DECIDED TO TAKE ON ROY BLUNT, THE CENTER SENATOR FROM MISSOURI IN 2022, RIGHT?

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK, CAN A DEMOCRAT TAKE ON SUCH A FIRMLY ENTRENCHED LONG STANDING REPUBLICAN LAWMAKER LIKE ROY BLUNT?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO MR. SIFTON.

I KNOW HE HAS HIS FANS AND CERTAINLY SEEMS TO BE LIKE A VERY EARNEST PERSON AND WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, BUT I THINK ROY BLUNT'S STOCK RIGHT NOW HAS NEVER BEEN HIGHER.

I THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN HAPPENING WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, JUST HIS, THE FACT THAT ROY BLUNT WAS ONE OF FEW GROWNUPS WHO BASICALLY WASN'T ENGAGED IN THE REALLY DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR LEADING UP TO THE INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6TH.

I THINK HE WILL BE VERY HARD TO BEAT AND I THINK A LOT OF DEMOCRATS WILL PROBABLY VOTE FOR HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A GROWNUP.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE HE VOTED, HE IS ABOUT TO VOTE TO ACQUIT DONALD TRUMP.

AND I HAPPEN TO LIKE ROY, BUT I THINK IT'S PREMATURE TO SAY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

SCOTT SIFTON ISN'T A VIABLE CANDIDATE AND AS RECENTLY AS 2012, FIVE OF THE STATEWIDE SEATS WERE HELD BY DEMOCRATS.

SO I KNOW IT FEELS IN THE AGE OF TRUMP LIKE THERE'S NO CHANCE FOR A DEMOCRAT, BUT TRUMP IS GONE AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT 2022 IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE.

>> I'LL PICK A NAME OUT OF THE AIR, SUPPOSE ED BARTON BEATS ROY BLUNT IN THE PRIMARY, AND PUTS ANOTHER DYNAMIC ON IT.

MAYBE HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THE PRIMARY, MUCH MORE THAN THE GENERAL.

AND EARLY SCOTT SIFTON SUPPORTER, EARLY, WAY BACK.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT SPORTS FOR THE AMERICAN, WE HAVE ONLY ABOUT 45 SECONDS TO GO, BUT WE LOST A BOXING GREAT, THE GOLD MEDAL WINNER AND HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION OF THE WORLD, LEON SPINKS.

DO YOU THINK HE EVER GOT HIS DUE IN HIS HOME TOWN?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

AND YOU POINTED IT OUGHT TO ME, HE'S NOT ON THE WALK OF FAME, DEFEATED MOHAMMED ALI FEBRUARY 15, 1978.

I WATCHED IT ALL, I WENT TO BED A SICK MAN BECAUSE I WANTED ALI TO WIN THE FIGHT.

ST. LOUIS NEVER GAVE HIM HIS DUE, I'M SORRY.

BUT HE MUST HAVE BEEN A LITTLE YOUNG BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IT.

>> DIDN'T GIVE CHUCK BERRY HIS DUE EITHER.

WE MADE A POINT OF THE TAPES WHEN IT CAME TIME TO ERECT THE STATUES AND THAT KIND OF THING WHERE HE WAS THE DARLING OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION, BUT NOT HERE IN HIS HOME TOWN.

>> WELL, HIS STATUE HAS BEEN IN THE LOOP ALMOST 10 YEARS, WENT UP JULY 29, 2011.

SO WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE A 10-YEAR ANNIVERSARY FOR THE CHUCK BERRY STATUE, BUT THAT WILL HAVE TO WAIT.

BECAUSE UP NEXT ON "NEXT UP" WE TALK TO JEFF SMITH ABOUT JAILS AND THE HOMELESS AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING, SO DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL.

>> "DONNYBROOK" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINEPBS.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR "NEXT UP."

TWO OF THE TOPICS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE NEWS RECENTLY, JAILS AND HOMELESSNESS AND OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT ON BOTH.

FORMER STATE SENATOR, JEFF SMITH, IS CURRENTLY THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MISSOURI WORK FORCE HOUSING ASSOCIATION, TRYING TO FIND AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR PEOPLE IN MISSOURI.

AND HE ALSO SERVES AS THE BOARD CHAIR OF THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY JUSTICE SERVICES ADVISORY BOARD, WHICH IS LOOKING INTO CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTY JAIL.

BUT MR. SMITH ALSO HAS A CONNECTION TO "DONNYBROOK" BECAUSE AT ONE POINT SOME OF YOUS WERE FEATURED IN A MOVIE CALLED, CAN MR. SMITH GET TO WASHINGTON ANY MORE.

AND MARTIN DUGAN, AND RAY, BILL, AND I ALL MADE CAMEO APPEARANCES IN THAT DOCUMENTARY, WHICH IS STILL BEING USED, JEFF, IN THE LOCAL CLASSROOMS, I AM TOLD.

>> YES.

FOLKS, I KNOW WHO TEACH POLITICAL SCIENCE AROUND THE COUNTRY AND WHO TEACH IN HIGH SCHOOLS AROUND THE COUNTRY SEE IT AS A GOOD LEARNING TOOL.

IT'S KIND OF A DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH STORY, BUT IT'S ALSO A STORY ABOUT HOW CAMPAIGNS REALLY WORK, BEHIND THE SCENES, AND HOW GRASS ROOTS ORGANIZING WORKS.

SO WE APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR INSIGHTS IN THE WAKE OF THE CAMPAIGN.

I THINK YOU NOTED IT IN THE FILM THAT I KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> IT IS TRUE, YOU CAME AND CAMPAIGNED AT MY HOUSE, AND I HONESTLY THOUGHT YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS WHEN YOU SHOWED UP.

HERE'S A YOUNG GUY, FROM THE MORMON CHURCH AND GOING TO TRY TO RECRUIT ME OR TELL ME THE GOOD NEWS.

BUT I WILL SAY, BRIEFLY, MY SON WAS AT AN ENGLISH CLASS AND DR. TAYLOR PRESENTED THIS FILM TO THE CLASS AND HE WAS SURPRISED TO FIND ME IN IT.

SO THAT'S A SMALL FAMILY NOTE.

WE HAVE SOME SERIOUS TOPICS, JEFF.

STARTING WITH, THIS WEEK THE JAIL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS, WHICH IS NOT UNDER YOUR PURVIEW, BUT THERE WAS A RIOT THERE AND IT WAS THE THIRD DISTURBANCE IN ABOUT SIX OR SO WEEKS.

YOU'RE LOOKING INTO CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTY JAIL RIGHT NOW.

ONE OF THE ISSUES WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IS TRANSPARENCY.

HOW DO PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE ACTUALLY FIND OUT WHAT CONDITIONS ARE LIKE INSIDE AN INCARCERATION FACILITY?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

PRISONS ARE ONE OF THE MOST OPAQUE INSTITUTIONS IN SOCIETY.

A LOT OF THE TIMES JOURNALISTS CAN'T EVEN GET INSIDE THEM.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE DO THE BEST THEY CAN WHEN THEY GET OUT TO LET PEOPLE KNOW IF THERE ARE CONDITIONS THAT ARE INHUMANE.

SO ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE RECONSTITUTED THE JUSTICE SERVICES ADVISORY BOARD ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO, A LITTLE LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO, WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS A RASH OF DEATHS IN THE COUNTY JAIL.

AND NO ONE REALLY UNDERSTOOD WHY THIS WAS HAPPENING.

I THINK THERE WERE FIVE DEATHS WITHIN LESS THAN A YEAR.

AND SO ONE OF OUR PURPOSES AS A CITIZENS BOARD IS TO SPEND TIME IN THE JAIL, UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

I WAS THERE THIS WEEKEND, I WAS THERE TWO OR THREE TIMES IN THE LAST WEEK ACTUALLY JUST TALKING TO RESIDENTS OF THE JAIL, TALKING TO STAFF, AND TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE RUN A FACILITY THAT IS HUMANE AND RESPECTFUL, AND A PLACE WHERE, HEY, NO ONE EXPECTS IT TO BE PARADISE, BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE CRUEL OR UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE NEW DIRECTOR IS ALL ABOUT, AND I THINK WE'VE SEEN A REAL TRANSFORMATION IN THE CONDITIONS THERE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS.

>> YOU'RE ON THE ADVISORY BOARD IN THE COUNTY.

FIRST QUESTION, AND IT'S SHORT, THE IDEA OF A TASK FORCE TO ADDRESS WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE CITY, DO YOU THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA?

AND THEN IF YOU WERE GOING TO ADVISE THEM AS TO HOW ABOUT GOING ABOUT THIS WHAT WOULD YOU TELL THEM, JEFF?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, ALVIN.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ABSOLUTELY A GOOD IDEA.

YOU'VE HAD THREE OR FOUR DISTURBANCES IN LESS THAN TWO MONTHS, YOU'VE GOT SOME PROBLEMS GOING ON.

SO YES, I'M GLAD THAT THE MAYOR ANNOUNCED THAT.

AND I REALLY APPRECIATED THE QUALITY AND CALIBER OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE APPOINTED, LED BY FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE MIKE WOLFF.

WHAT WOULD I ADVISE THEM?

FIRST, THE FACILITY HAS TO BE SAFE.

WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC, AND I KNOW IN THE MOVEMENT TO CLOSE THE WORK HOUSE, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FUNNELED TOWARDS THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER, AND THAT MAY HAVE CAUSED OVERCROWDING IN GENERAL, BUT PARTICULARLY IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC.

WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE IN CLOSE SPACES IN A PANDEMIC, IT MEANS THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO GET NEAR AS MUCH TIME OUT.

THEY MAY BE IN THEIR CELL 23, 24 HOURS A DAY.

AND THAT'S NO WAY TO LIVE.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE ADEQUATE P.P.E.

THERE WERE RUMORS, AND I CAN'T CONFIRM OR DENY THEM, BUT THAT RESIDENTS WERE SAYING THAT NEITHER STAFF NOR INMATES HAD ADEQUATE PROTECTION AGAINST COVID.

THAT THERE WAS VERY LITTLE TESTING, THAT SOME PEOPLE WERE GOING WITHOUT FOOD FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

SO I'M GLAD THERE'S A TASK FORCE TO LOOK INTO THIS.

WHAT I LEARNED AS A FORMER INMATE MYSELF BUT ALSO HAVING VISITED A LOT OF PRISONS IN THE LAST DECADE SINCE WRITING A BOOK ON THE SUBJECT, IS THAT WHEN THE RESIDENTS ARE TREATED RESPECTFULLY THEN THEY TREAT THE STAFF RESPECTFULLY.

AND IT'S A LOT HAPPIER ENVIRONMENT FOR EVERYBODY.

BECAUSE BEING IN A JAIL OR A PRISON, IT'S NO FUN FOR ANYBODY, OKAY, IT'S NOT FUN FOR THE STAFF TO BE IN THERE EITHER.

SO WHEN PEOPLE ARE TREATED WITH COMPASSION AND HUMANITY THERE'S A MUCH BETTER ENVIRONMENT FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE WORKING CONDITIONS FOR STAFF.

>> JEFF, I HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING GLOWING THINGS ABOUT DOUG BURRIS.

HAD HIM ON OUR SHOW AND HE SEEMS LIKE THE REAL DEAL, HE'S ONLY BEEN ON THE JOB FOUR MONTHS.

SEEMS TO ME THERE WAS A POINT AT WHICH THE BOARD WAS NOT FEELING IT WAS INVOLVED ENOUGH IN HIS SELECTION, IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

AND NOW AS OF LAST MONTH, YOU'RE STILL CALLING FOR ANOTHER STUDY OF THE JAIL.

WHY DO -- YOU'VE GOT THIS OBVIOUS BLUE RIBBON BOARD YOU'RE ON, WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER STUDY?

>> SO ANY SERIOUS PROBLEM YOU HAVE, AND I THINK THIS ISN'T JUST AROUND CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES, BUT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU GOT THERE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND HOW YOU GOT THERE, EXCUSE ME.

AND THE PROBLEM THAT CULMINATED IN THE LOSSES OF LIFE IN THE JAIL YEARS AGO, THE PERSONNEL ISSUES THAT WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF PUBLIC BACK AND FORTH AROUND IN THE COUNTY OVER THE LAST YEAR OR TWO, THOSE DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

SO WE THINK THERE WERE SOME DEEP SEATED CULTURAL ISSUES THAT PROFOUNDLY AFFECTED MORALE OF THE STAFF.

AND IN TURN, THE STAFF WITH -- STAFF'S POOR MORALE AFFECTED THE WAY THEY TREATED RESIDENTS.

SO WE THINK IT MERITS A DEEPER DIVE.

I AGREE WITH YOU THAT WE'RE THRILLED TO HAVE GOTTEN DOUG BURRIS, HE RETIRED FROM HIS POSITION AS THE HEAD OF THE PROBATION, FEDERAL PROBATION OFFICE IN ST. LOUIS, AND PEOPLE FIGURED THAT HE WAS KIND OF DONE AND THEN WE WERE ABLE TO GET HIM BACK, AND HE'S DONE A GREAT JOB IN HIS FIRST FEW MONTHS.

BUT THERE WERE REAL DEEPER ISSUES, AND THEY'RE NOT FIXED AT THIS POINT.

AND THEY'RE BEING ADDRESSED.

BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE JUST A GOTCHA OR BACKWARD LOOKING REVIEW.

WE ALSO WANT A TEAM THAT CAN LOOK AT BEST PRACTICES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SO WE CAN HAVEA WORLD CLASS FACILITY HERE IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY THAT DOES THE BEST IT CAN DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE DON'T EVER COME BACK THERE AFTER THEY LEAVE.

AND PART OF THAT MEANS NOT JUST BEING A WAREHOUSE, BUT BEING A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN GET SOME JOB TRAINING, WHERE YOU CAN LEARN, YOU KNOW, LITERACY SKILLS THAT HAVE HELD YOU BACK IN THE JOB MARKET, WHERE YOU CAN GET POTENTIALLY CONNECTED TO SECOND CHANCE EMPLOYMENT WHEN YOU COME HOME, IN THE WAY THAT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY DOES THROUGH ITS SECOND CHANCE JOB FAIR.

THEY HAVE A NONPROFIT CALLED THE TRANSFORMATIVE WORK FORCE ACADEMY THAT WILL BE PARTNERING WITH THE COUNTY JAIL TO HELP PEOPLE GET BACK ON THEIR FEET.

SO THERE'S ALSO KIND OF INNOVATIVE THINGS YOU CAN DO IN THE JAIL SO THAT IT'S NOT JUST A WAREHOUSE FOR PEOPLE, BUT A WAY TO HELP LIFT PEOPLE UP AND NOT EVER GO BACK.

>> WITH HOUSING THESE DAYS, I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT HOUSING THAT USED TO COME UP WHEN I WAS REPORTING, AND IT WAS THE PRESERVATIONISTS AGAINST THE DEVELOPERS ON THE NORTH SIDE.

THE PRESERVATIONISTS, THAT THESE BRICK BUILDINGS HAVE TO BE REHABBED BECAUSE THEY'RE THE HEART AND SOUL OF THE CITY AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND THE DEVELOPERS SAID IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE TO TRY TO REHAB THESE OLD BUILDINGS, WE NEED TO TEAR THEM DOWN AND BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT?

>> I'M NOWHERE ON THAT.

WHAT I'M MOST CONCERNED WITH IS THE PRODUCTION OF UNITS.

I WANT TO SEE MORE AFFORDABLE, QUALITY UNITS PRODUCED OVER THE NEXT FIVE TO 10 YEARS.

RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS ALONE, THERE'S 40,000 PEOPLE ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING WAIT LISTS.

THERE'S ANOTHER 26,000 PEOPLE ON THE WAIT LIST IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

AND MOST WAIT LISTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE, ST. LOUIS AND KANSAS CITY AND OTHER PLACES AS WELL, MOST OF THEM HAVEN'T BEEN OPEN FOR YEARS.

THAT MEANS IF THERE WERE, THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE PEOPLE.

SO I LOVE THE HISTORY OF ST. LOUIS, I MEAN, YOU KNOW CHARLIE FROM SEEING ME AT YOUR DOOR, BUT THIS IS A BOLD CLAIM, BUT I MAY HAVE KNOCKED ON AS MANY DOORS AS ANYBODY ALIVE IN ST. LOUIS.

OVER 100,000 DOORS.

I LOVE THE NEIGHBORHOODS, I LOVE THE HISTORIC CHARACTER OF THEM.

AND THE ARCHITECTURAL, YOU KNOW, HERITAGE OF THIS CITY IS WHAT GIVES THE CITY THE FEEL THAT IT'S GOT.

I'D LOVE TO PRESERVE THAT.

BUT I'M NOT AN ABSOLUTELYIST.

WE CAN'T DO THAT AT THE COST OF PRODUCING MORE UNITS.

BECAUSE THERE'S JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE IN NEED OUT THERE, THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE -- HALF THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY ARE CONSIDERED RENT BURDENED, THAT MEANS THEY SPEND MORE THAN 30% OF THEIR INCOME ON THEIR HOUSING.

A QUARTER OF THE PEOPLE ARE EXTREMELY RENT BURDENED, WHICH MEANS THEY SPEND OVER HALF OF THEIR INCOME ON HOUSING.

AND IN A LOT OF CASES IT'S REALLY SUBSTANDARD HOUSING, AND THERE ARE LANDLORDS THAT EXPLOIT PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE PEOPLE LIKE WOMEN COMING OUT OF AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP, PEOPLE WITH BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, WITH REALLY BAD CREDIT HIS TRIES OR FELONY CONVICTIONS ON THEIR RECORD, AND DON'T HAVE OTHER ALTERNATIVES WHO GET EXPLOITED BY LANDLORDS.

SO WE NEED TO INCREASE OUR STOCK OF QUALITY SAFE AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT AN ABSOLUTIST ABOUT WHETHER WE DO IT THROUGH PRESERVATION OR CONSTRUCTION.

I APPRECIATE THE QUESTION.

>> I'D LIKE TO REVISIT WHEN YOU WERE RESPONDING TO RAISE QUESTION ABOUT THE RESIDENTS AT THE COUNTY JAIL CENTER, SOME PEOPLE CALL THEM PRISONERS, YOU WERE ALSO TALKING ABOUT BEING TREATED WITH RESPECT.

AND PUBLIC ESTATE DIRECTOR JUDGE JIMMY EDWARDS SAID OF THE PEOPLE WHO INSTIGATED THE RIOT AT THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER THAT THEY WERE SERIOUSLY DEFIANT, THAT THEY WERE VERY AGGRESSIVE AND ON AND ON.

PLEASE HELP US UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HOUSED AT THESE FACILITIES.

HELP US TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> WELL, I WASN'T AT THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER, SO I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS UNREST THERE.

YOU HEARD THE ACCOUNT AFTERWARDS WHERE THEY SAID THERE WERE LOCKS THAT DON'T ACTUALLY LOCK, AND THAT INMATES HAD JIMMIED THE LOCKS.

SO THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH THE PHYSICAL SECURITY OF THE PLACE.

THE TERM I USE, PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED ALREADY EXPERIENCE A LOT OF STIGMA, AND THERE ARE CERTAIN TERMS THAT TEND TO EXACERBATE THAT STIGMA, SO WHEN POSSIBLE I TRY NOT TO USE THEM, SO I REFER TO THEM AS RESIDENTS.

THE JAIL IS WHERE THEY LIVE RIGHT NOW.

BUT REMEMBER THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF A CRIME BUT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TO TRIAL YET AND HAVEN'T BEEN CONVICTED OF ANYTHING, SO I TRY NOT TO ADD TO THE STIGMA THAT THEY ALREADY WILL FACE WHEN THEY COME HOME.

>> JEFF, WE HAVE SOME FIGURES ABOUT PRETRIAL DETENTION AT THE COUNTY JAIL, AND MAYBE BECAUSE OF COVID OR BECAUSE THE COURTS AREN'T WORKING EFFICIENTLY, YOU TELL ME WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT ONE GUY WHO HAS BEEN THERE FOR FIVE YEARS, 118 IN THE COUNTY HAVE BEEN THERE MORE THAN TWO YEARS.

190 HAVE BEEN THERE BETWEEN ONE AND TWO YEARS.

THIS SEEMS TO BE AN EXCEPTIONALLY LONG PERIOD OF TIME FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN CONVICTED YET, THEY'RE JUST WAITING FOR THEIR DAY IN COURT.

>> IT'S A BIG PROBLEM, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT DIRECTOR BURRIS IS AWARE OF AND HAS BEEN WORKING REALLY HARD TO TRY TO ADDRESS.

COVID IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF IT, THE DISRUPTION AND DELAY IN PEOPLE GETTING A HEARING.

BUT NOW THEY'VE STARTED DOING IT VIA ZOOM, SO WE BELIEVE THAT AND A COUPLE OTHER REFORMS ARE GOING TO SHORT EN THAT TIME.

BUT IT'S UNACCEPTABLE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST ACCUSED TO BE SITTING IN A PLACE FOR YEARS.

IN SOME OF THOSE CASES I'VE LOOKED AT A COUPLE OF THOSE INDIVIDUAL CASES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THERE A VERY LONG TIME, THOSE TEND TO BE CAPITAL CASES, WHICH TAKE A LONGER TIME TO GET TO TRIAL.

BUT REGARDLESS, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO A SPEEDY TRIAL IN THIS COUNTRY AND IT HASN'T ALWAYS HAPPENED IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, AND WE'RE WORKING TO CHANGE THAT.

>> GOING BACK TO THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING, WHEN PEOPLE SAY AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THAT WOULD BE GREAT, BUT WHAT MAKES AFFORDABLE HOUSING AFFORDABLE?

AND WHERE DOES AFFORDABLE HOUSING GO?

AND OKAY, SO I LIVE IN AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT AND MY RENT IS WHATEVER IT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A LUXURY APARTMENT OR WHATEVER, BUT IT DID COST WHAT IT DOES.

WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM AND WHERE DO THESE GO?

IS IT ALL NORTH SIDE OR IMPROVE POFERRISH -- IMPOVERISHED AREAS.

SO WHO PAYS AND WHERE ARE THEY?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD QUESTIONS IN THERE, ALVIN.

WHAT MAKES SOMETHING AFFORDABLE, THERE'S A COUPLE DIFFERENT WAYS TO MEASURE IT.

ONE IS BASED ON HOW MUCH OF SOMEONE'S INCOME THEY ARE PAYING.

SO SOMETHING IS TRADITIONALLY CONSIDERED TO BE AFFORDABLE TO THEM OR THEY'RE CONSIDERED BURDENED BY THEIR RECENT IF THEY'RE PAYING MORE THAN 30% OF THEIR INCOME TOWARDS THAT.

BUT PROBABLY A BETTER ANALYSIS IS LOOKING AT IT THROUGH THE PRISM OF THE MARKET.

AND WE LIKE TO, FROM AN AFFORD AN HOUSING PERSPECTIVE, TO MAKE SURE SOMETHING IS AFORWARDABLE, YOU'D LOVE TO SEE IT BELOW MARKET RENT FOR PEOPLE WHO CANNOT AFFORD MARKET REPRESENT.

ONE OF THE MECHANISMS TO DO THAT, THROUGH A STATE AND FEDERAL SUBSIDY IS THE STATE LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT PROGRAM, WHICH MATCHES THE FEDERAL LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT PROGRAM, REFERRED TO AS LITAC, IT GIVES A TAX CREDIT TO FOR PROPERTY OR NONPROFIT DEVELOPERS, GIVES THEM TAX CREDITS THROUGH A VERY COMPETITIVE AWARDS PROCESS.

SO THEY PUT IN AN APPLICATION WITH THE STATE AND THEY SAY WE WANT TO PUT UP 50 NEW UNITS THAT ARE AFFORDABLE, HIGH QUALITY, MAYBE MCCORMACK BARRON WANTS TO DO THIS, OR A COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION.

AND IF THEY WIN AND ONLY ABOUT ONE OUT OF EVERY FOUR OR FIVE APPLICATIONS RECEIVE THE AWARD, THEN THEY'RE GIVEN TAX CREDITS.

THEY SELL THOSE TAX CREDITS TO AN INVESTOR WHO KNOWS THAT HE'S, OR HIS OR HER ORGANIZATION WILL HAVE TAX LIABILITY OVER THE NEXT DECADE, AND SELLING THOSE TAX CREDITS, CONVERTING THEM TO CASH, GIVES YOU THE MONEY TO BUILD A QUALITY DEVELOPMENT.

IN EXCHANGE FOR THOSE TAX CREDITS, YOU'VE GOT TO PROMISE YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP THE RENTS WELL BELOW MARKET RATE FOR THE NEXT 30 YEARS.

SO THAT'S HOW YOU ENSURE AFFORDABILITY.

THE TAX CREDITS TAKE ABOUT 15 YEARS TO BE ACTUALLY REDEEMED BY THE END USER OF THOSE CREDITS.

AND DURING THAT WHOLE PERIOD, THE STATE IS COMING AND INSURING THAT YOU ARE RENTING ONLY TO ELIGIBLE TENANTS, THAT YOU'RE KEEPING THE PHYSICAL PLANT WELL MAINTAINED, THAT YOU ARE NOT A SLUM LORD, AND THAT YOU AREN'T FLIPPING THOSE UNITS TO A MARKET RATE DEVELOPER, AND YOU'RE KEEPING IT AFFORDABLE.

SO IT'S A GOOD PROGRAM, IT'S GOT TONS OF ACCOUNTABILITY BUILT INTO IT, AND THAT'S WHY A LOT OF US FOUGHT SO HARD TO BRING IT BACK AFTER FORMER GOVERNOR HAD FROZEN IT.

>> JEFF, SPEAKING TO THAT ISSUE, ONE OF YOUR ROLES AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE MISSOURI WORK FORCE HOUSING ASSOCIATION, IS TO ADVOCATE IN JEFFERSON CITY, AND OF COURSE YOU WERE THERE AS THE STATE SENATOR AND WHAT FEELS LIKE A DIFFERENT ERA.

HOW WILL YOU COMPARE THE LEGISLATURE'S ATTITUDE AND HOW IT IS, OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE NOW, ON HOUSING ISSUES, THEN AND NOW, HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE THEM?

>> ANOTHER GREAT QUESTION.

FIRST OF ALL I'D RATHER BE MAKING THE LAWS THAN BEGGING PEOPLE TO TWEAK THE LAWS JUST A LITTLE BIT, PRETTY PLEASE.

BUT THE LEGISLATURE HAS CHANGED A GREAT DEAL BECAUSE OF TERM LIMITS, THEY TAKE AWAY A LOT OF INSTITUTES AL MEMORY.

SO EACH TWO YEARS YOU'RE WORKING TO REEDUCATE PEOPLE ON A VARIETY OF ISSUES.

WITH THE SUPER MAJORITIES OF REPUBLICANS, THAT CAN BE A CHALLENGE.

BUT HOUSING IS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE.

AND ONE OF THE COOL THINGS ABOUT THE DESIGN OF THE LITAK PROGRAM THAT WE FIGHT FOR IS THAT INSTEAD OF THE OLD MODEL FROM THE 1950'S, WHERE GOVERNMENT BUILT THESE HUGE HIGH RISES, MANY OF WHICH HAD TO BE TORN DOWN 20 YEARS LATER BECAUSE THEY FELL INTO SUCH DISREPAIR, THIS NEW MODEL RELIES ON THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND THE PHILANTHROPIC SECTOR THROUGH NONPROFITS TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN UNITS.

AND THEY'VE TENDED TO DO A MUCH BETTER JOB OF KEEPING UNITS UP, KEEPING BUILDINGS LEASED, AND KEEPING RESIDENTS SATISFIED, THAN THE PREVIOUS PROGRAM OF 50 YEARS AGO.

SO THAT HELPS US APPEAL, NOT JUST TO PEOPLE WHO, ON THE LIBERAL SIDE WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT, BUT ALSO TO PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT BUT I DON'T WANT TO SEE A LOT OF HOMELESS PEOPLE AND I WANT GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY POSSIBLE.

SO WE TRY TO WORK, YOU KNOW, WE'VE SUCCESSFULLY BUILT A GOOD BIPARTISAN COALITION, AND NEGOTIATED A COMPROMISE LAST YEAR, PRIMARILY WITH STATE TREASURE SCOTT FITZPATRICK WHO IS A BIG TAXPAYER ADVOCATE, WE'VE GOT TO HAVE MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY, AND HE SPEARHEADED SOME REFORMS TO THE PROGRAM, WHICH I THINK HAVE INCREASED THE PRICING OF THE CREDITS.

NOW THE CREDITS ARE SELLING FOR AS MUCH AS 70 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR, WHICH IS PRETTY GOOD WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT REDEEMED FULLY UNTIL ABOUT 14 OR 15 YEARS OUT.

AND THE TIME VALUE OF MONEY EATS AWAY AT THAT DOLLAR A LITTLE BIT.

SO GREAT QUESTION.

>> JEFF, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE TINY HOUSE THING?

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IT FOR HOMELESS PEOPLE, THESE LITTLE TINY HOUSES IN PARK-LIKE SETTINGS WHERE, YOU KNOW, A NUMBER OF THEM WOULD LIVE AND MAYBE IT'S ONLY GOOD FOR SINGLE PEOPLE, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS TINY HOUSE THING?

>> WELL, MY PERSPECTIVE IS MAYBE A LITTLE INTERESTING SINCE I LIVED IN A 7 BY 8 CELL FOR A YEAR.

AND NOW I'VE GOT THIS HOUSE THAT'S LIKE FALLING IN ON ALL SIDES, AND MY GUEST BEDROOM CEILING IS FALLING IN FROM THE MASTER BATHROOM SHOWER WHICH IS LEAKING THROUGH THE WHOLE PLACE, SO I'M NOT TOO FOND OF BIG HOUSES RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY EXPENSIVE.

I THINK THE NOTION OF TINY HOUSES, THAT JASON CANDOR IS DOING THROUGH THIS VETERANS COMMUNITY PROJECT, WHICH IS A NEW DEVELOPMENT IN THE BILL FOR HOMELESS VETERANS, I THINK IT'S A FANTASTIC IDEA.

IT'S GOING TO BE TRANSITIONAL HOUSING, IT'S NOT FOR THEM TO LIVE IN THE REST OF THEIR LIFE, BUT IT'S A PLACE TO GET WELL, TO HEAL FROM PTSD OR SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER OR ANY OTHER NUMBER OF AILMENTS THAT PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH, GET THEM CASE MANAGEMENT, GET THEM TREATMENT, GET THEM JOB SKILLS, CONNECTED TO EMPLOYERS.

I LOVE THE CONCEPT THAT JASON IS BRINGING TO ST. LOUIS FROM KANSAS CITY, AND I THINK HE'S BRINGING IT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

SO I'M A FAN OF IT.

I HOPE THAT IT DOESN'T GET LOST IN THE MAYORAL TRANSITION.

>> THANK YOU.

>> A HOUSING DEPARTURE QUESTION, GENTLEMEN.

IN TERMS OF POLITICS, WE HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE SENATOR HOLLY IS YOUR CONTEMPORARY.

WHEN THE DUST SETTLES, AND I'M SURE YOU'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER POLITICAL INSIDERS, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR SENATOR HOLLY AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WARREN BUFFET ONCE SAID OF THE STOCK MARKET, IN THE SHORT TERM IT'S A POPULARITY CONTEST, BUT IN THE LONG-TERM TERM IT'S A SCALE.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY REPUBLICANS ARE IN THE U.S. SENATE AND HOUSE RIGHT NOW ARE LOOKING AT PRESIDENT TRUMP, IN THE SHORT TERM, THEY MAY WIN THE POPULARITY CONTEST IN A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY TO STICK WITH HIM.

IN THE LONG TERM, IN THE GREAT BROAD SWEEP OF HISTORY, I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE EMBARRASSED AND THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH THE VOTE THAT I THINK MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE ARE GOING TO TAKE ON IMPEACHMENT.

SO I THINK JOSH HAWLEY IS PROBABLY NEVER GOING TO BE BEAT IN A U.S. SENATE PRIMARY IN MISSOURI.

CERTAINLY HE THINKS THIS WILL ENDEAR HIM TO TRUMP WORLD, BUT I THINK WE SAW WITH VICE PRESIDENT PENCE THAT YOU CAN BE LOYAL FOR FOUR YEARS, DO EVERYTHING FOR DONALD TRUMP, AND THEN IF YOU WON'T GO AND DO THE ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE THING, THAT LAST MILE, HE'LL CUT YOU OFF THIS QUICK.

HE WILL IGNORE FRANTIC CALLS FROM OTHER REPUBLICANS, YOU KNOW, FOR HOURS, WHILE MIKE PENCE'S LIFE IS BEING THREATENED BY VIOLENT RIGHT -- RIOTERS.

SO WE'LL SEE IF THIS ENDS UP ENDEARING HIM TO THE TRUMP BASE.

GIVEN HIS HISTORY, GIVEN HIS PEDIGREE, GIVEN HIS MANNER OF SPEECH, I THINK MAYBE HE KNOWS THE WORDS TO THE TRUMP SONG, BUT I DON'T THINK HE REALLY HAS THE RHYTHM.

SO I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO END UP BEING THE NOMINEE.

BUT I DON'T THINK HE'LL LOSE HIS SENATE SEAT OVER THIS, I DON'T THINK IT'S AFFECTED HIM THAT BAD.

>> JEFF, WE HAVE LESS THAN TWO MINUTES TO GO HERE.

IF YOU COULD, THERE WAS A DECISION OUT OF BOISE THIS WEEK THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO CHALLENGE A LAWSUIT THAT SAID BASICALLY IF THEY TAKE HOMELESS OFF THE STREETS THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE HOUSING FOR THEM.

BOISE HAS DECIDED THAT IT'S GOING TO PROVIDE HOUSING NOW FOR THE HOMELESS THERE, YOU REMEMBER THEY TOOK THIS CASE TO THE NINTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS WHICH SAID, CITIES AND TOWNS, IF YOU TAKE HOMELESS OFF THE STREETS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME PLACE FOR THAT PERSON TO LIVE.

AND I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS YOU'RE FINDING A LOT OF HOMELESS ON SIDEWALKS AND THERE'S NOTHING MUNICIPALITIES CAN LEGALLY DO ANY MORE BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT DECIDED NOT TO TAKE THIS ISSUE.

SO IN LOS ANGELES, IN SAN FRANCISCO AND ON CLARK STREET IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS YOU'RE SEEING LITTLE ENCAMPMENTS NOW THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE FOR YEARS.

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THE HOMELESS IN AMERICAN CITIES?

>> SO, A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT SUFFER FROM HOMELESSNESS ARE SUFFERING FROM OTHER ISSUES, TOO.

MANY, ONE OF THE HIGHEST PROPORTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS HAVE SOME TYPE OF CRIMINAL BACKGROUND, SOME TYPE OF CONVICTION.

THAT TENDS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO FIND LANDLORDS WHO WILL RENT TO THEM.

ONCE YOU ARE HOMELESS, THEN A LOT OF PEOPLE DEVELOP OR HAVE SUBSTANCE USE DISORDERS THAT ARE EXACERBATED.

SO YOU REALLY NEED WRAP AROUND SERVICES.

YOU NEED PEOPLE TO CARE FOR FOLKS AND HAVE SOME TYPE OF CARE COORDINATION.

WE'VE GOT TO START WITH, WE'VE GOT TO START WITH THAT IN ST. LOUIS WHERE THE CONTINUUM OF CARE.

BUT IT'S NOT ALL THE WAY WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE, AND WE STILL DON'T HAVE ENOUGH BEDS AND SHELTERS EVERY NIGHT TO GET PEOPLE THERE.

I THINK THERE'S ABOUT 500 SHELTER BEDS ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT IN ST. LOUIS, AND ABOUT 1500 PEOPLE THAT ARE HOMELESS.

WE NEED THE WHOLE REGION TO CHIP IN.

PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, FRANKLIN, JEFFERSON, THEY GRAVITATE TOWARDS THE CITY BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE SERVICES ARE, BUT THOSE OTHER COUNTIES NEED TO STEP UP AND FUND THE TYPE OF COORDINATED CARE THAT WE NEED.

>> JEFF, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND CUT YOU OFF THERE.

BUT WITH THIS INTERRUPTION, HOW ABOUT YOU JOIN US AGAIN SOME TIME FOR ANOTHER DONNYBROOK NEXT UP.

>> I WOULD LOVE THAT.

IT APPRECIATE EVERYBODY'S QUESTIONS, GOOD TO SEE ALL OF YOU.

>> "DONNYBROOK" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINEPBS.