>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

I'LL TALK TO TWO LOCAL DOCTORS, AMONG THE HUNDREDS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, COMING OUT IN SUPPORT OF THE BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S PHYSICIANS TARGETED BY NEO-NAZIS OVER THEIR EFFORTS TO COMBAT SYSTEMIC RACISM IN MEDICINE.

THEN, LATER, THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE UPCOMING FILM, "FANNIE LOU HAMER'S AMERICA," JOIN ME ON THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF THE MISSISSIPPI CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER.

♪♪ >> Reilly: EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC, THEN-BOSTON MAYOR MARTY WALSH SURPRISED SOME PEOPLE WHEN HE DECLARED RACISM A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY BUT THE COLOR OF A PERSON'S SKIN HAS BEEN A MAJOR PREDICTOR OF HEALTH OUTCOMES FOR DECADES, WITH BLACK AND BROWN AMERICANS FACING HIGHER RATES OF HEART DISEASE, STROKES, CANCER DEATHS, MATERIAL AND INFANT MORALITY, AND CONSIDERABLY SHORTER LIFE EXPECTANCY ACROSS THE BOARD.

THE MEDICAL PROFESSION USED TO ATTRIBUTE THOSE DISPARITIES TO INHERENT RACIAL DIFFERENCES, BUT RECENTLY THEY'VE BEEN LINKED TO SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ITSELF.

THAT'S A PROBLEM MANY PHYSICIANS HAVE BEEN WORKING TO SOLVE, INCLUDING A PAIR OF DOCTORS AT BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL, MICHELLE MORSE AND BRAM WISPELWEY.

BUT, AS WE FIRST TALKED ABOUT A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, THEIR EFFORTS HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY A LOCAL HATE GROUP EVER SINCE THEY PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN BOSTON REVIEW LAST APRIL, CALLED "AN ANTI-RACIST AGENDA FOR MEDICINE," THAT OUTLINED A PROGRAM FOR ADDRESSING INEQUITIES IN CARDIOLOGY CARE AT BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S.

IN THE MONTHS SINCE, THE WORCESTER-BASED GROUP OF NEO-NAZIS HAVE BEEN PROTESTING MORSE AND WISPELWEY, ACCUSING THE DOCTORS OF PUSHING A "BLATANT ANTI-WHITE GENOCIDAL POLICY."

BUT AFTER THE GROUP'S LATEST DEMONSTRATION, HUNDREDS OF DOCTORS FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY HAVE SHOWN THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE ANTI-RACIST EFFORTS, SIGNING ONTO AN OPEN LETTER WRITTEN BY THE MASSACHUSETTS COALITION FOR HEALTH EQUITY, WHICH CONCLUDES: "THE BEST RESPONSE TO NEO-NAZI THREATS IS EXPONENTIAL GROWTH IN PROGRAMS LIKE THIS ONE ACROSS THE COUNTRY."

TWO OF THEM JOIN ME NOW: DR. LARA JIRMANUS IS A FELLOW AT HARVARD'S CENTER FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND A CLINICAL INSTRUCTOR AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL; AND DR. TIA TUCKER IS A PHYSICIAN AT CAMBRIDGE HEALTH ALLIANCE.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

TIA, LET ME START WITH YOU.

IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY, AND PLEASE TELL ME IF I DON'T, A BEGINNING FOR FOUNDATIONAL TENELT OF ANTI-RACIAL MEDICINE IS FOR DECADES THAT THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT HAS TREATED DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE IN WILDLY DIFFERENT WAYS.

IS THERE ANY EXPERIENCES OF YOUR OWN AS A PHYSICIAN THAT POINT UP THAT REALITY THAT YOU'D BE WILLING TO SHARE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS STEMS FROM THE GROWTH OF MEDICINE IN THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY.

IN THE 1800s AND THE 1900s, THERE WAS A LOT OF MOVEMENT AROUND NEUGENICS, AND THEY PROPOSED THAT BLACK BODIES WERE DIFFERENT FROM WHITE BODIES.

AND THEY NEEDED A LOT OF SCIENTIFIC WORK TO BACK THAT UP.

SOME OF THE STUDIES WE'VE DONE -- ESPECIALLY, I WOULD GIVE YOU SOME EXAMPLES, DURING COVID, WE USE A MACHINE TO TRY TO EVALUATE HOW PEOPLE'S LUNGS ARE DOING.

THERE IS ACTUALLY A RACE CALCULATION THAT IS ADDED TO THE BROMETRY RESULTS.

SOME HAVE HIGHER OR LOWER CAPACITY BASED ON RACE.

THIS IS A MACHINE WE USE ON IN-PATIENT MEDICINE AS WELL AS OUT-PATIENT MEDICINE IN THE CLINIC.

AND THERE IS A BASIS OF HOW MUCH OXYGEN THAT IS IN YOUR BLOOD, A PULLS OXIMETER, AND IT IS DESIGNED WITH CERTAIN SKIN TONES BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ESTIMATE THE AMOUNT OF OXYGEN IN YOUR BLOOD IF YOU ARE A DARKER-SKINNED PERSON.

>> Reilly: OKAY;,.

SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> THERE IS A CALCULATION THAT WE USE TO MEASURE HOW PEOPLE'S KIDNEYS OR FUNCTIONING, AND FROM IS A RACE-BASED CALCULATION ON THAT.

>> Reilly: I THINK, ACTUALLY, THAT IS A PERFECT SEGUE.

WHEN I WAS READING UP ON THIS AND LOOKING SPECIFICALLY AT WHAT MASS GENERAL BRIGHAM IS DOING, THE INITIATIVE THAT IS UNDER WAY THERE TO ROOT OUT RACISM IN MEDICAL PRACTICE, THEY MENTIONED THEY'RE ADJUSTING THAT CALCULATION, TRYING TO REMOVE THAT RACIST SLANT FROM THE WAY KIDNEY CARE IS PROVIDED.

BUT, LARA JIRMANUS, TELL ME IF I HAVE THIS WRONG, IT SEEMS TO ME A COROLLARY TENET OF ANTI-RACIST MEDICINE, TRYING TO PULL OUT THINGS THAT ARE PERHAPS IMPLICITLY BIAS, THAT GOING COLOR-BLIND OR RACE-BLIND HAS BEEN ATTEMPTED AND HAS NOT SUCCEEDED.

AM I GETTING THAT RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS THE WAY THAT OUR FIELDS HAVE WORKED, UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE REASON THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING THESE POOR HEALTH OUTCOMES IS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THEIR UNDERLYING CONDITIONS.

YOU KNOW, THEY ARE AT HIGHER LIKELIHOOD TO HAVE OTHER ILLNESSES.

AND EVEN THE SOCIO-ECONOMIC ISSUES.

AND I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH A COALITION WHO IS PUSHING FOR AN EQUITY RESPONSE TO THE COVID EPIDEMIC.

UNDERSTANDING THAT ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL AND THIS INDIVIDUAL CHOICE TACT THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS TAKEN TO ADDRESS THE PANDEMIC, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU ALL OF THE TOOLS, IS NOT SUFFICIENT TO ADDRESS THE HEALTH INEQUITIES THAT EXIST IN SOCIETY.

TO PUT A MASSIVE VACCINATION CENTER IN FOXBORO OR IN THE SUBURBS AND TO PUT UP A WEBSITE SAYING YOU CAN SIGN UP FOR VACCINES HERE DOESN'T REACH OUT TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO COMPUTERS AND THE INTERNET.

SO WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE FOCUSED INTERVENTIONS TO TARGET RESOURCES TOWARDS INDIVIDUALS IN COMMUNITIES WHICH HAVE TRADITIONALLY BEEN MARGINALIZED, AND THAT ALSO IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE IN THE HOSPITAL.

THERE IS A GROWING BODY OF LITERATURE THAT IS DEMONSTRATING THE WAY THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE POORER HEALTH OUTCOMES WHEN THEY'RE ADMITTED TO THE HOSPITAL.

AND WHEN YOU CONTROL FOR ALL OF THEIR UNDERLYING RISK FACTORS, THE ONLY THING YOU CAN CONCLUDE IS THAT THE REASON IS RACISM, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU MATCH THAT UP WITH THE STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT BLACK PATIENTS ACTUALLY HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES WHEN THEY'RE TREATED BY BLACK DOCTORS.

AND SO WHAT THESE INTERVENTIONS TRY TO DO IS MORE LIKE A BIAS PREVENTION.

WE REALIZE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT OUR HEALTH SYSTEM -- NOT JUST OUR HEALTH SYSTEM, BUT ACTUALLY OUR CULTURE, WHICH IS BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHICH IS FOUNDED UPON COLONIALISM, AN ECONOMY WHICH WAS BASED UPON SLAVERY -- THOSE THINGS STICK WITH US.

RACISM IS EMBEDDED IN OUR CULTURE, AND SO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS PUSH BACK EVERY SINGLE DAY AND TEACH OURSELVES AND OUR INSTITUTIONS TO BE ANTI-RACIST.

>> Reilly: LET'S GET INTO SOME MORE DETAILS OF WHAT THAT ACTUALLY ENTAILS.

TIA, IN THAT WAR AND PEACE IN THE BOSTON REVIEW, THEY ADVOCATE WHAT THEY CALL A HEALING ARK MODEL, AND THEY'D LIKE TO SEE BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS USE IT.

"A" STANDS FOR ACKNOWLEDGMENT -- CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?

>> WHAT WE'RE DOING IS TRYING TO USE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO EVALUATE WHAT ACTUALLY IS THE CAUSE.

AND LARA MENTIONED EARLIER IT IS RACISM.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT TO PEOPLE IT IS RACISM AND NOT RACE.

THERE IS NOT A BIOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT OF RACE.

SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT THAT MEANS, IT MEANS USING THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE THROUGH SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH TO OBJECTIVELY IDENTIFY WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS STRUCTURALLY, AND THEN WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REDRESSING, WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KINDS OF INTERVENTIONS CAN WE DESIGN TO TRY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

I THINK THEY'VE DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB OF ENUMERATEING A SPECIFIC RESPONSE.

INSTEAD OF FEELING LIKE THIS FEELS DANGEROUS, IT IS, LIKE LARA SAID, IT IS A BIAS PREVENTION.

WE'RE LOOKING AT DIFFERENT WAYS WHERE THIS HAS BEEN ENACTED ON, AND WHERE RACISM HAS AFFECTED PATIENT CARE AND CONFRONTING THAT.

>> Reilly: SPEAKING WITH THE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE RECEIVED INEQUITY CARE IN THE PAST AND SAYING, HAVE WE MADE YOU WHOLE IN OUR EFFORTS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT -- THE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE WRONG IN THE PAST AS FAR AS MEDICINE IS CONCERNED, WE HAVEN'T GONE INTO THE COMMUNITIES AND SAID, HOLD US RESPONSIBLE, HAVE WE DONE OUR JOB?

THIS IS MORE WITH A COMMUNITY FOCUS IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND HOLD OURSELVES, AGAIN, ACCOUNTABLE TO WHAT WE'RE DOING AS PHYSICIANS.

>> Braude: LARA, I THINK BOTH YOU AND TIA HAVE USED BIAS INTERVENTION.

BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S SUGGEST WHAT THEY CALL -- AND THIS IS THEIR PHRASE, "A PERIPHERAL PREFERENTIAL" SPECIAL PREFERENTIAL OPTION FOR BLACK AND LATINX HEART PATIENTS."

THE HEALING ARK WILL INCLUDE A FLAG IN OUR ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORD SUGGESTING THAT PROVIDERS ADMIT BLACK AND LAT LATINX PATIENTS, RATHER THAN RELY ON PATIENT SELF-ADVOCACY TO DETERMINE IF THEY SHOULD GO TO CARDIOLOGY ON GENERAL MERCHANDISE.

MEDICINE.

LARA, IS THIS PART OF THE PUSHBACK, THE IDEA THAT BLACK AND LATINX PATIENTS NOU HAVENOW MIGHT NOW HAVE A CHANCE OF GETTING BETTER MEDICINE -- >> I CANNOT READ THEIR MINDS, BUT WHAT I CAN SAY THESE SYSTEMS ARE IN PLACE WITH REGARD TO THE MEDICAL RECORD, TO REMIND US TO ORDER A PARTICULAR TEST FOR A PATIENT WHO HAS DIABETES, TO SUGGEST THAT WE DOUBLE CHECK WITH A PATIENT IS UNINSURED, TO OFFER US THE OPTION TO SEND THEIR MEDICATIONS TO A PHARMACY WHICH IS MORE LIKELY TO COVER IT.

WHAT THIS IS, AGAIN, TRYING TO DO IS PREVENT BIAS BECAUSE IT KNOWS AND WE KNOW, LOOKING AT OUR OWN DATA, THAT WE, AS PHYSICIANS, ARE MORE LIKELY TO ADMIT WHITE PATIENTS TO A CARDIOLOGY SERVICE THAN BLACK PATIENTS OR OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO WHAT THIS MEASURE IS TRYING TO DO -- AND IT IS VERY DATA-DRIVEN, I WOULD SAY.

SO THE WHOLE POINT IS YOU LOOK AT THE DATA AND YOU SAY, ARE WE ACHIEVING EQUITY?

RIGHT NOW WE'RE NOT.

WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, GIVING PEOPLE A FIGHTING CHANCE.

THESE ARE REALLY HIGH STAKES.

IN SOME CASES, WHEN PEOPLE ARE HIGH RISK, THEY ACTUALLY HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES WHEN THEY'RE ADMITTED TO A CARDIOLOGY SERVICE.

>> Reilly: TIA -- >> JUST TO PIGGYBACK OFF OF THAT, YOU MENTIONED THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT SUPERIOR ACCESS, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT.

PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED IN PRACTICING HEALTH EQUITY, WE'RE LOOKING AT OUR HEALTH CARE THROUGH A LENS THAT MEANS THAT ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR RACE, THEIR SEX, THEIR GENDER, HOW MUCH THEY CAN AFFORD, IT IS DESERVING OF ACCESS TO IMPROVE HEALTH OUTCOMES.

SO THIS IDEA THERE IS A SCARCITY MINDSET WHERE WE'RE GOING TO OFFER PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT TO OTHER PEOPLE -- WE'RE OFFERING ACCESS TO PEOPLE, WHICH THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.

>> Reilly: IS IT THE SAME ACCESS BEING OFFERED OR HEIGHTENED ACCESS IN THE NAME OF ACHIEVING EQUITY THAT HAS NOT EXISTED BEFORE, WHERE THERE HAS BEEN INEQUITY IN THE PAST?

>> NO.

IT IS ABOUT ACHIEVING -- I THINK THAT THE OBJECTIVE IS EQUITY.

IT IS ABOUT ACHIEVING EQUITABLE ACCESS WITH REGARD TO MEDICAL NECESSITY.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT OUR PROGRAMMED BRAINS, BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT REPEATEDLY TEACHES US TO BE RACIST EVERY MINUTE OF OUR LIVES, WE HAVE TO INSERT REMINDERS SAYING, HEY, WAIT A SECOND, THE WHITE, VERY RICH-LOOKING PATIENT WHO KEEPS TELLING YOU HE WANTS TO BE ADMITTED TO THE CARDIOLOGY SERVICE -- WELL, THAT'S NOT A MEDICAL REASON TO ADMIT HIM.

THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THESE SYSTEMS ARE TRYING TO COUNTERACT.

REPARATIONS IS ANOTHER PIECEF IT,PIECE OF IT, AND THAT IS ABOUT FINANCIAL COMPENSATION, BUT NO ONE IS ADVOCATING FOR MAKING UP FOR DECADES OF IN INEQUITABLE TREATMENT BY DENYING PEOPLE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE THEY NEED BASED ON THEIR SKIN CARE.

IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE THE OPPOSITE, HOW DO WE ACTUALLY GET OUR SYSTEM TO REMIND US TO PUSH BACK AGAINST OUR RACIST UNDERLYING IDEAS AND MAKE SURE WE'RE ACTUALLY OFFERING THE SAME OPPORTUNITY FOR LIFE-SAVING HEALTH CARE TO EVERYBODY.

>> Reilly: I'VE ALREADY GONE OVER THE AMOUNT OF TIME I BUDGETED MYSELF TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION, BUT IT IS SO IMPORTANT, I WANT TO TAKE ANOTHER MINUTE.

I WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU GET A CHANCE TO TAKE THESE QUESTIONS ON.

TIA, HOW OPEN DO YOU THINK YOUR FELLOW PHYSICIANS ARE GOING TO BE TO THIS APPROACH?

THERE IS OBVIOUSLY PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO SIGNED THAT LETTER IN SUPPORT OF WISPELWEY AND MORSE.

HOW OPEN IS THE MEDICAL SYSTEM AS A WHOLE TO THIS APPROACH?

>> I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS GAINING A LOT OF TRACTION IN MEDICINE.

THIS APPROACH THAT THEY'VE DESIGNED IS UNIQUE AND IT'S HARDY.

IT IS COMPREHENSIVE AND EVIDENCE-BASED.

BUT THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS THAT PHYSICIANS ARE ALREADY DOING THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY THIS APPROACH WITH THEIR HEALTH EQUITY ACCELERATOR.

THEY'RE APPLYING EDUCATIONAL MODELS, TO GO OUT INTO COMMUNITIES AND MEET WHERE THEY ARE IN SPACES WHERE THEY DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

LARA MENTIONED EARLIER ABOUT VACCINE ACCESS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PROGRAMS THAT HAVE GONE DIRECTLY TO COMMUNITIES THAT WHO HAVE IN THE PAST SUFFERED FROM ACCESS TO VACCINES.

WE'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK HERE ON MAKING SURE WE'RE CONFRONTING POLICIES THAT HAVE DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED PEOPLE OF COLOR IN OUR HOSPITALS.

THIS IS SOMETHING I SEE PEOPLE DOING EVERYWHERE.

IT MIGHT NOT BE THE SAME VALUE AS THIS COMPREHENSIVE, VERY POWERFUL EQUITY ACCELERATOR, BUT, YES, PHYSICIANS ARE INTERESTED IN PROMOTING HEALTH EQUITY.

THEY TOOK AN OATH TO DO NO HARM.

AND THEY REALIZE THAT RACISM IS DOING HARM AND THEY WANT TO CHANGE THAT.

>> Reilly: LARA, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS APPROACH CONTINUES GETTING LEGS, AS TIA JUST DESCRIBED, ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE COURTS FINDING AGAINST IT, GIVEN THE SITUATION IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK BECAUSE OF THE SPACE THAT WE'RE WORKING IN RIGHT NOW, AND BECAUSE OF OUR OBJECTIVES AND OUR EVIDENCE THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT EVEN THE INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE CON CONCLUDED THAT COLOR-BLIND APPROACHES DO NOT WORK TO ADDRESS HEALTH INEQUITIES, I THINK WE STAND ON SOLID GROUND.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR HELPING TO UNTANGLE THIS.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER FANNIE LOU HAMER IS OFTEN REMEMBERED FOR THIS FAMOUS SPEECH AT THE 1964 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION: >> IS THIS AMERICA, THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE, WHERE WE HAVE TO SLEEP WITH OUR TELEPHONES OFF OF THE HOOK BECAUSE OUR LIVES BE THREATENED DAILY, BECAUSE WE WANT TO LIVE AS DECENT HUMAN BEINGS IN AMERICA?

>> Reilly: HAMER USED THE MOMENT TO CALL FOR DELEGATIONS FROM HER MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO BE SEATED AT THE CONVENTION, RATHER THAN THE STATE'S ALL-WHITE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DELEGATION, AND ALTHOUGH THAT EFFORT PROVED UNSUCCESSFUL, SHE BROUGHT GREATER NATIONAL ATTENTION TO THE OPPRESSION OF BLACK AMERICANS IN THE SOUTH.

THAT D.N.C.

SPEECH WAS ONE OF HAMER'S BEST-KNOWN PUBLIC MOMENTS IN A LIFE THAT SPANNED FROM A HARDSCRABBLE CHILDHOOD IN THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA, TO A MID-LIFE ASCENSION AS A WELL-KNOWN ACTIVIST AND LEADER, TO AN UNTIMELY DEATH AT AGE 59 FROM BREAST CANCER IN AN ALL-BLACK HOSPITAL IN 1977.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY COMING NEXT WEEK TO PBS AND WORLD CHANNEL, CALLED "FANNIE LOU HAMER'S AMERICA," TELLS THE FULL STORY OF HAMER'S LIFE, THROUGH SPEECHES, INTERVIEWS, AND SONG, CO-PRODUCED BY HAMER'S GREAT NIECE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER MONICA LAND.

SHE JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH THE FILM'S DIRECTOR AND EDITOR, JOY DAVENPORT.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

MONICA, LET ME START WITH YOU.

IN THE DOCUMENTARY, YOUR GREAT AUNT SAYS THAT SHE IS WAS -- IF I HAVE MY MATH RIGHT -- ABOUT 45 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE DISCOVERED THAT BLACK AMERICANS COULD ACTUALLY REGISTER TO VOTE AND VOTE.

WHAT CHANGED IN HER LIFE AND IN THE CULTURE AT LARGE WHEN SHE HAD THAT EPIPHANY OR PAVED THE WAY FOR THAT EPIPHANY?

>> UM, I THINK IT WAS JUST CIRCUMSTANCE.

AND JOY CAN SPEAK TO THAT BETTER THAN I CAN -- >> Reilly: OKAY.

>> -- BUT GROWING UP AS A SHARE CROPPER, HER LIFE WAS DEFINITELY OPPRESSIVE.

I THINK ANYONE IN THAT SITUATION WOULD OBVIOUSLY WANT TO DO BETTER.

SO SHE TELLS THE STORY SHE HEARD THERE WAS A MASS MEETING AT A LOCAL CHURCH, WILLIAM CHAPEL.

SHE ASKED MY UNCLE COULD SHE ATTEND.

THERE WAS SOME KIND OF BARGAIN, IF SHE PICKED SO MUCH COTTON, OR SOMETHING OR ANOTHER, THAT HE WOULD TAKE HER.

SHE DID EXACTLY THAT, AND SHE ASCENDED.

AND SO IT WAS REVELATIONAL THAT SHE COULD HAVE A VOICE IN HOW SHE WAS LIVING HER LIFE.

AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON, SHE CHOSE TO DO EXACTLY THAT, NOT ONLY FOR HERSELF BUT FOR EVERY OTHER BLACK PERSON IN MISSISSIPPI.

I THINK IN EVENTUALLY THE NATION.

AND PARTICULARLY IN MISSISSIPPI, WHERE THERE WAS SO MUCH POVERTY.

AND WANTING TO MAKE THAT KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

>> Reilly: I THINK THE FILM DOES DRIVE HOME, BOTH IN OLDER FOOTAGE -- THERE IS A LOT OF AT TIMES TOUGH TO WATCH OLDER FOOTAGE, AND NEW FOOTAGE, THAT DRIVES HOME THE REALITY OF THAT MATERIAL IMPOVERISHMENT THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT HAS PROFOUND CONSEQUENCES THAT GO BEYOND THE MATERIAL.

JOY DAVENPORT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT THE FILM IS THERE IS NO NARRATOR.

THE DOM DOMINATE VOICE IS FANNIE LOU HAMER'S.

WHY DID YOU MAKE THAT CALL?

>> SHE IS THE VOICE OF GOD -- SHE IS THE VOICE THAT WE NEED TO HEAR.

IT SHOULD BE THE ONLY ONE TELLING US ABOUT HER.

I THINK THAT IS BOTH AN ETHICAL DECISION AND A CREATIVE DECISION THAT LEADS TO HAVING MORE POWER TO GET ACROSS WHAT SHE WAS TRYING TO GET ACROSS, BECAUSE THE FILM IS STRUCTURED LIKE ONE OF HER SPEECHES.

HER SPEECHES ARE ONE OF THE PRIMARY SOURCES WE HAD TO GO TO DO DOCUMENT HER LIFE.

WE DIDN'T WANT THE TALKING HEADS OR THE VOICE OF GOD NARRATOR TO GET BETWEEN US AND HER.

WE WANTED TO GET AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO HER.

>> Reilly: AS YOU SAY, AND I DON'T HAVE THE SONIC KNOWLEDGE TO DESCRIBE THIS, BUT ON AN AUDIO LEVEL, THERE IS SO MUCH CONTAINED IN HER VOICE AND A DEPTH OF FEELING, THAT IT REALLY CREATES A DIFFERENT SENSATION AS YOU'RE WATCHING IT.

MONICA, CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR ME BRIEFLY WHAT HAPPENED -- I SAY BRIEFLY BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A HORRIFIC SUSTAINED EVENT, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT IN HER LIFE, WHAT HAPPENED TO FANNIE LOU HAMER IN MISSISSIPPI, AND HOW DID IT SHAPE HER LIFE MOVING FORWARD?

>> THEY WERE RETURNING FROM A VOTER REGISTRATION WORKSHOP.

THEY STOPPED TO USE A RESTAURANT FACILITY, AND ONE OF THE OFTEN MISCONCEPTIONS THAT WE HEAR IS THAT FANNIE LOU HAMER ALSO WENT INTO THE RESTAURANT, WHICH IS INCORRECT.

SHE ACTUALLY STAYED ON THE BUS.

>> Reilly: WHICH WE HEAR IN THE FILM?

>> EXACTLY.

BUT IT HAS BEEN PRINTED OR CONTINUED TO BE REPEATED THAT SHE WAS IN THE RESTAURANT, AND SHE WAS NOT.

AND SO IT WAS A SEGREGATED FACILITY.

AND SO WHEN SHE SAW HER COLLEAGUES RUSH OUT, SHE, OF COURSE, NATURALLY STEPPED OFF TO SEE WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

AND ONE OF HER COLLEAGUES TOLD HER TO GET BACK ON THE BUS.

AND AS SHE DID THAT, OF COURSE, SHE WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY.

ONE OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS SAID TO GET THAT ONE THERE.

AND SO THEY ARRESTED HER, PUT HER IN THE CAR, SHE TELLS THE STORY, AND SHE WAS ARRESTED.

AND IT WAS -- I'M POSITIVE THAT I CAN SAY, AS IT WOULD BE FOR ANYONE, PARTICULARLY A 45 44 OR 45-YEAR-OLD WOMAN, TO BE BEATEN WITH SUCH FORCE, IT WAS TRAUMATIC.

IT WAS AN EXPERIENCE THAT SHE NEVER FORGOT.

IT HAD LONG-LASTING EMOTIONAL, MENTAL, AND PHYSICAL RAMIFICATIONS.

AND SO -- BUT SHE WAS ABLE TO USE THAT.

A GREAT DEAL OF HER TESTIMONY AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION WAS SPENT TALKING ABOUT THAT VERY EXPERIENCE.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS ADDED IN THE FINAL CUT OR NOT, BUT THERE WERE CHARGES BROUGHT.

THERE WAS A TRIAL, BUT THERE WAS AN ALL-WHITE JURY, AND NO ONE WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT SITUATION.

THEY BEAT SEVERAL PEOPLE, INCLUDING A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL.

AND NO ONE WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT.

AND SO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK ABOUT TODAY THE AGGRESSIONS YOU SEE WITH PEOPLE WITH BLACK LIVES MATTER, WHEN PEOPLE ARE ACQUITTED.

AND FANNIE LOU HAMER HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT, AND SHE USED IT THROUGHOUT HER CAREER.

>> Reilly: IT IS ALMOST -- WHEN YOU GET INTO THE DETAILS OF IT, I FIND MYSELF WONDERING HOW SHE LIVED, HOW SHE WAS PHYSICALLY ABLE TO SURVIVE, AND THEN TO MOVE ON TO IT.

BUT SHE DID MOVE ON.

SHE BORE WITNESS IN A NUMBER OF SETTINGS.

SHE RAN FOR CONGRESS.

SHE WAS ACTIVE IN TRYING TO SHAKE UP THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, PROVIDING AN ALTER DIFALTERNATIVE TO THE EXISTING RACIST STRUCTURE.

AT THE END OF HER CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISM, THERE IS A MOMENT HIGHLIGHTED IN THE FILM WHEN ROY WILKINS, THE VERY WELL-KNOWN CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER, SPEAKS TO HER DISMISSIVELY.

BASICALLY SAYS, YOU'RE NOT WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IN THE MOVEMENT ITEM, MOVEMENT ANYMORE AND IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO BOW OUT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY HE WAS SO DISMISSIVE TO FANNIE LOU HAMER?

>> THERE WAS A KIND OF A RESPECTABILITY POLITICS IN PLACE.

SHE WAS NOT THE FACE OF THE MOVEMENT THEY WANTED TO PROMOTE.

SHE WAS UNEDUCATED.

THEY SAID SHE WAS IGNORANT OF HOW THINGS REALLY WERE.

AND THEY WANTED TO GET HER OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHT BECAUSE ONCE SHE STARTED SPEAKING, IT WAS HARD NOT TO LISTEN.

THEY FOUND SHE WAS GETTING ATTENTION THAT THEY WANTED TO BE DIRECTED TOWARDS OTHER THINGS.

AND IT WAS DISRUPTIVE TO BE HER TO COME WITH HER MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM PARTY AND SAY, NONE OF THIS IS RIGHT.

THAT'S NOT HOW THE INSTITUTIONALISTS WERE TRYING TO PROMOTE IT AT THE TIME.

THE PEOPLE SHE WAS WORKING AGAINST DEFINITELY DID NOT SUPPORT HER.

>> Reilly: HER SPEECH AT THE D.N.C.

WAS SO THREATENING TO MANY PEOPLE, THAT LYNDON JOHNSON PREEMPTED IT, TO DISTRACT FROM THIS ADDRESS SHE WAS GIVING?

>> YEAH.

ORIGINALLY SHE WAS GIVING HER SPEECH, AND PEOPLE WERE WATCHING, AND HE DIDN'T LIKE THAT, SO HE CALLED A PRIME TIME ADDRESS TO ANNOUNCE TODAY IS THURSDAY, AND OTHER NETWORKS WERE, LIKE, WE NEED TO SHOW THE WHOLE SPEECH, SO IT WORKED IN THE OPPOSITE.

>> Reilly: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE LESSON OF FANNIE LOU HAMER'S LIFE IS FOR PEOPLE DO AND, AS YOU SAID, FOR ACTIVISTS TODAY?

>> RESILIENT.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT SHE WAS A COMMON PERSON.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT MADE HER SO AFFECTIVE AND SO POPULAR.

PEOPLE OFTEN CAN'T RELATE TO SOMEONE THAT DOES NOT SHARED EXPERIENCES.

AND SO BECAUSE SHE CAME FROM, YOU KNOW, THE COTTON FIELD, WAS A SHARE CROPPER, HER LIFE WAS A LIFE OF POVERTY.

SO SHE COULD RELATE TO PEOPLE LIKE NO ONE ELSE OF THAT STATURE COULD.

LIKEWISE, TODAY I THINK PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A VOICE THAT ARE SIMILAR TO THEIR OWN, A CIRCUMSTANCE.

THAT'S WHY HER LEGACY CONTINUES TO RESONATE.

EVERY TIME YOU SEE A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST, SOMEONE HAS A SIGN OR SHIRT THAT HAS ONE OF HER QUOTES.

"NOBODY IS FREE UNTIL EVERYBODY IS FREE."

I'M SICK AND TIRED OF BEING SICK AND TIRED."

>> Reilly: I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT, BUT WATCHING THE FILM, I WAS AMAZED AT HOW MANY PHRASES WERE FAMILIAR THAT I DIDN'T KNOW CAME FROM HER.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: FANNIE LOU HAMER'S AMERICA WILL AIR HERE ON GBH 2 ON FEBRUARY 22nd AT 9:00 P.M. AND ON THE WORLD CHANNEL ON FEBRUARY 24th AT 8:00 P.M. ALSO, TOMORROW AT 3:00 P.M.

THERE WILL BE A ZOOM PANEL DISCUSSION WITH THE FILMMAKERS.

YOU CAN REGISTER ONLINE AT FannieLoumaimmersAmerica.

com.

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>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR A LOOK AT THE NEW FRONTLINE FILM, "AMERICAN RECKONING," A LOOK BACK AT A BLACK-LED LIBERATION MOVEMENT IN THE 1960s MISSISSIPPI AND THE STILL UNRESOLVED MURDER OF NAACP LEADER WHARLEST JACKSON.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

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