CRYSTAL: TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON, RESEARCH SHOWS HOW DANGEROUS GIVING BIRTH CAN BE FOR BLACK OTHERS AND THEIR INFANTS.

WE LOOK AT THE DISPARITIES AND WHAT WE CAN DO TO FIX THEM.

THEN, MAYOR WU'’S PLAN TO STABILIZE RENT PRICES.

WE HEAR FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE OF RENT CONTROL.

FOR YEARS COME -- THE MATERNAL MORTALITY RATE IN THE U.S. HAS FAR EXCEEDED THAT OF OTHER HIGHER INCOME COUNTRIES.

AT LAST COUNT, IT WAS MORE THAN THREE TIMES HIGHER THAN NEARLY ALL OF ITS PEER COUNTRIES WITH NEARLY 24 DEATHS PER 100,000 LIVE BIRTHS.

THAT IS JUST THE AVERAGE.

THE MORTALITY RATE IS A LOT HIGHER FOR BLACK WOMEN HERE IN THE U.S.

THEY ARE DYING AT MORE THAN TWICE THE RATE WITH 55 DEATHS PER 100,000 LIVE BIRTHS.

WHILE OTHER DEMOGRAPHICS CAN ALSO FACTOR IN TO MATERNAL AND INFANT HEALTH, NEW RESEARCH PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH HAS FOUND THAT BLACK MOTHERS AND THEIR BABIES HAVE THE WORST CHILD BIRTH OUTCOMES, REGARDLESS OF POVERTY LEVEL, PARENTAL INCOME AND SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS.

RESEARCHERS EXPLAIN, "INFANT AND MATERNAL HEALTH AND BLACK FAMILIES AT THE TOP OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION IS MARKEDLY WORSE THAN THAT OF WHITE FAMILIES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION."

WE ARE GOING TO BREAK IT DOWN.

I AM JOINED BY STATE SENATOR LIZ MIRANDA AND COLETTE DIEUJUSTE.

SHE IS THE DEAN OF NURSING AT WEATON COLLEGE WHO HAS WORKED AS A LABOR AND DELIVERY NURSE AND IS A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF WOMEN'’S HEALTH, OBSTETRICS AND NEONATAL NURSING.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

CRYSTAL: I THINK WE HAVE BEEN HAVING THIS CONVERSATION FOR MANY YEARS.

AT LEAST IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, ABOUT MATERNAL OUTCOMES FOR BLACK AND BROWN WOMEN.

NOW WE ARE SEEING THEIR BABIES ARE NOT FARING AS WELL.

SENATOR MARANDA, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR THIS LONG , TELL ME WHAT YOU MAKE OF THESE NEW NUMBERS THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THIS STUDY.

SEN. MIRANDA: IT IS AN HONOR TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

MAKING SURE WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

CONVERSATIONS ARE WHAT HAVE LED MASSACHUSETTS IN LEADING AND ADDRESSING THE MATERNAL MORBIDITY CRISIS NOT ONLY IN THE COUNTRY, BUT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WHEN WE FIRST STARTED TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE, WE HAD JUST FILED, THEN PASSED WITHIN A YEAR UNANIMOUSLY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE WHEN I WAS A REPRESENTATIVE, THE MATERNAL LAND EQUITIES COMMISSION.

-- SESSIONS ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH HAD 95% SUPPORT IN THAT COMMISSION FROM BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE OR PROVIDERS.

WE FILED THE REPORT IN APRIL OF LAST YEAR.

THESE NUMBERS, TO US, ARE NOT NEW.

THERE ARE STUDIES EVERY MONTH THAT COME OUT THAT BASICALLY SAY AMERICA IS NOT DOING WELL BY BLACK AND BROWN WOMEN AND THEIR CHILDREN.

THE SHOCKING PIECE OF THIS STUDY IS THAT IT SHOWS IN NORMAL CASES WHEN YOU LOOK AT ANY SOCIAL DETERMINANT OF HEALTH, INCOME, EDUCATION, ZIP CODE, MARITAL STATUS AND EDUCATION ARE USUALLY FACTORS.

WE HAVE FOUND IN THIS REPORT FROM THE ECONOMIC BUREAU THAT REGARDLESS OF THOSE FACTORS, WHETHER YOU ARE MARRIED, WEALTHY, EDUCATED, LIVE IN A NICE TOWN OR CITY, BLACK WOMEN ARE DYING MORE AND OUR BABIES ARE DYING MORE, OR BORN WITH LOWER BIRTH WEIGHT THAN THE POOREST OF WHITE WOMEN.

THAT IS AN ALARM THAT IS ITS -- AN ALARM THAT IS SPEAKING TO THE FACT THAT WE MUST BE URGENT AND WHAT WE ARE DOING NOT ONLY IN LEGISLATIVE ARENAS LIKE THE MASSACHUSETTS SENATE, BUT WHAT WE ARE DOING IN COMMUNITIES, IN HOSPITALS AND TEACHING INSTITUTIONS.

CRYSTAL: I WANT TO POINT OUT SOME NUMBERS FROM THIS PARTICULAR REPORT.

WE UNDERSTAND THE INFANT MORTALITY DEATHS PER 100,000 LIVE BIRTHS FOR THE RICHEST BLACK MOTHERS VERSUS THE POOREST WHITE MOTHERS, RICHEST BLACK MOTHERS, 437.

POOREST WHITE MOTHERS, 350.

THAT NUMBER ACTUALLY GOES UP TO 650 FOR THE POOREST BLACK MOTHERS.

DO YOU SEE THESE NUMBERS BEARING OUT IN LABOR AND DELIVERY ROOMS IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

COLETTE: I THINK WE HAVE SEEN THAT.

WHEN WE TALK TO BLACK WOMEN ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES, THEY ALWAYS FEEL THERE IS A PROBLEM.

THAT THEY ARE NOT BEING HEARD.

AND IT GOES ACROSS THE ECONOMIC LINE.

WOMEN FEEL THEY ARE NOT BEING HEARD.

IT IS LIKELY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN BODIES.

WHEN THEY ARE TELLING THE HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS THAT THESE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON, THEY ARE NOT GETTING ANY RESULTS OF THEM TO BE HEARD.

IF WOMEN ARE NOT BEING HEARD ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS, THAT IS GOING TO LEAD TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY WHERE WE ARE SEEING THE INCREASING MATERNAL MORBIDITY AND BLACK WOMEN DYING.

WE ARE SEEING THEIR CHILDREN ARE NOT ABLE TO HANDLE.

BECAUSE OF THAT, THEY ARE BORN EARLY, THEY HAVE OTHER ISSUES THAT COME WITH IT.

THESE BABIES ARE DYING ALSO.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE BLACK WOMEN HAT IS HAPPENING.

SOME STUDIES ARE SHOWING THAT WE ALSO HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE WHOLE WEATHERING EFFECT THAT IS PUSHING SOME OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENING TO BLACK WOMEN SO THAT WE NEED TO STUDY THEM AND TRY TO SEE HOW WE CAN DECREASE THAT RATE.

WE CANNOT WAIT.

THAT IS ONE OF THE STUDIES WE ARE DOING ON BIRTH EQUITY.

WE ARE TALKING TO WOMEN AND TRYING TO HEAR WHAT IT IS THEY FEEL AND WHAT ARE THE THINGS THEY THINK COULD HELP THEM SO THAT THESE THINGS DO NOT REPEAT.

CRYSTAL: WHAT DO YOU THINK IN TERMS OF EDUCATING NURSES SPECIFICALLY, WE TALK ABOUT PHYSICIANS AS WELL, BUT AS THE DEAN OF NURSING AT WEATON COLLEGE, WHAT DO YOU TALK TO YOUR NURSES ABOUT HOW TO HELP MOTHERS WITH THIS EQUITY LENS AND THIS INFORMATION WE HAVE NOW COLLECTED DATA ON?

COLETTE: FROM SOME OF OUR PLUMBING AREA DATA WE ARE RECEIVING FROM OUR STUDY, SOME OF THE THINGS BLACK WOMEN ARE TELLING US IS THAT WE NEED TO ELIMINATE RACISM.

WE NEED TO DO IT AT THE BEDSIDE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WOMEN ARE BEING HEARD.

THE OTHER THINGS WOMEN ARE TELLING US IS THAT THEY NEED MORE BLACK PROVIDERS.

MORE BLACK NURSES TO GO INTO THE FIELD TO BE NURSES SO THAT THEY CAN HELP THESE WOMEN FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.

SO THAT THEY CAN FEEL BETTER ABOUT THE CARE THEY ARE GETTING.

WE NEED MORE SUPPORT GROUPS TO BE ABLE TO HELP THESE WOMEN TO MAKE DECISIONS AND ALSO HELP THEM WITH SUPPORT.

IT IS NOT ONE THING WITH MATERNAL MORBIDITY, COMORBIDITIES ARE VERY HIGH AND THERE ARE ALL DIFFERENT THINGS WE NEED TO DO.

FINANCIAL SUPPORT IS EXTREMELY PORTON.

WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO SUPPORT THEM FINANCIALLY AND HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON AND TEACH THEM.

WE HAVE TO TEACH OUR NURSES ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT THINGS SO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WILL BE ABLE TO HELP CHAMPION THOSE PATIENTS AND HELP THEIR PATIENTS FIND A VOICE SO THEY CAN HELP TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE AND HOW THEY CAN GET RESULTS.

SENATOR MIRANDA -- CRYSTAL: SENATOR MIRANDA, A LOT OF LEGISLATION HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON GETTING DIVERSITY INTO THE HEALTH CARE SPACE.

THERE HAVE BEEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT DUELISTS -- DULAS.

SEN. MIRANDA: I AM NOT A MOM YET.

I GOT INTO THIS WORK BECAUSE IN 2017, MY BABY SISTER GAVE BIRTH THROUGH A BABY AT 21 WEEKS THAT DID NOT SURVIVE.

IF IT WASN'’T FOR A PRESENTATION BY THE MARCH OF DIMES, I NEVER WOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT TO CALL IT.

I WAS IN A ROOM WITH MY SISTER WHO HAD COMPLAINED THE EVENING BEFORE ABOUT PAIN.

HER DOCTOR TOLD HER SHE WAS ANXIOUS AND TOLD HER TO TAKE TYLENOL AND GO TO BED THAT MORNING, SHE GAVE BIRTH TO HER DAUGHTER WHO DID NOT SURVIVE.

SO MANY OF MY FRIENDS AND PEOPLE WE KNOW ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME THINGS.

I AM GLAD YOU CALLED OUT, IT IS JUST RACISM.

IT IS DESTRUCTIVE SYSTEMIC RACISM IN OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

IT IS ALSO ABOUT ACCESS.

IT IS ABOUT NOT LOOKING AT BLACK WOMEN'’S PAIN THE SAME WAY WE LOOK AT OTHER WOMEN'’S PAIN.

BLACK WOMEN AND INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE UNDER DOCUMENTED, UNDOCUMENTED, LIVE IN RURAL COMMUNITIES OR SPEAK ANOTHER LANGUAGE, ARE OFTENTIMES NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY WHEN THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE BIRTH EXPERIENCE.

WE NEED TO REIMAGINE THE BIRTH EXPERIENCE.

LEGISLATION IS MY WHEELBARROW.

THAT IS THE THING I CARRY EVERY DAY IN MY WORK.

I AM PROUD THAT I FILED A BIRTH JUSTICE OMNIBUS BILL THAT I HOPE WILL BRING MANY COMMUNITIES TOGETHER FROM PITTSFIELD TO P TOWN.

BUT ALSO, THE MOMS MATTER BILL AND ACT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE.

IT IS AROUND POSTPARTUM MENTAL HEALTH.

ALTHOUGH US ARE WATCHING OVER TDS, HEARING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED DUXBURY A FEW YEARS AGO, AND ROXBURY.

IT HAPPENED AGAIN.

WE ARE NOT TAKING THE MENTAL HEALTH OF BURSTING PEOPLE IN THIS STATE SERIOUSLY.

I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE KNOW WE HAVE A VEHICLE.

BUT IT IS SO IMPORTANT WE ARE TEACHING NURSES DIFFERENTLY, TEACHING DOCTORS DIFFERENTLY, THAT WE ARE PUTTING MORE BUDGETARY SUPPORT FOR PEER SUPPORT GROUPS AND GROUPS TO HANDLE MANY BIRTHING PEOPLE GOING THROUGH MISCARRIAGES OR STILLBIRTHS.

MANY OF THEM SUFFER FROM SEPSIS AND OTHER COMORBIDITIES, DIABETES AND HYPERTENSION.

I WANT TO SAY ONE MORE THING, WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING.

TO GET TO GREATER EQUITY AND JUSTICE SO THAT NO BLACK WOMAN IS DYING IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS AND THAT OUR BABIES HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE.

WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING TOGETHER.

I WANT TO ENCOURAGE FOLKS WATCHING THINKING, WHAT CAN I DO?

AT EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT, IN EVERY SECTOR, WE HAVE TO DO BETTER BY BIRTHING PEOPLE.

I WAS -- CRYSTAL: I WAS INTERESTED BY THE POINT YOU ARE MAKING ABOUT HOW FUNDING, PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE THE PEOPLE BIRTHING IN THESE SPACES, MAKING SURE THEY LOOK LIKE THOSE FOLKS.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT VERSUS THE MONEY IT SEEMS HOSPITAL SYSTEMS ARE SPENDING ON IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT.

SENATOR MIRANDA MENTIONED IT IS IN THIS OR THAT, IT IS EVERYTHING ALTOGETHER.

WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR MANY YEARS.

IT HAS TO BE MORE THAN JUST TRAINING FOLKS.

IT HAS TO BE ANOTHER LEVEL.

WHAT YOU SEE AS SOME ONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE LABOR AND DELIVERY ROOM?

COLETTE: IT IS IMPORTANT TO DO THAT TRAINING BECAUSE THAT TRAINING WILL HELP AND WILL SENSITIZE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN THE SPACER THAT THEY UNDERSTAND.

BUT, WE STARTED IN THE NURSING SCHOOLS TRYING TO MAKE SURE THEY UNDERSTAND SOCIAL JUSTICE AND UNDERSTAND THE GLOBAL HEALTH PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN AND HOW THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO HELP THE PATIENT FIND THEIR VOICE.

AND HELP THE PATIENT EXPLAIN WHAT IS HAPPENING.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE NEED MORE -- TO BE IN THAT SPACE.

ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE BLACK GIRLS AND BLACK BOYS THAT NURSING IS A GREAT PROFESSION.

WE ARE A CARING PROFESSION WHO LOVE PEOPLE AND WANT TO SHOW THE BEST OF WHO THEY ARE.

WE USE CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING AND TAKE CARE OF THE PATIENT IN ALL OF THE WAYS THAT NEED TO BE DONE.

I THINK IT IS BOTH.

WE NEED TO HELP THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE NOW TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT BUT WE ALSO NEED TO BRING NEW PEOPLE IN.

THAT NEEDS TO START AT ALIMENTARY SCHOOL, TO SHOW HOW WONDERFUL IT IS TO BE A NURSE AND HOW CARING WE ARE.

AND HOW WE CAN USE THAT TO HELP PEOPLE WHEREVER THEY ARE.

AND THEN LOSE OUR I.S.

IS SO THAT WHEN A STUDENT BECOMES A NURSE, THEY WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS AND PATIENTS WILL BE ABLE TO SEE THE NURSES THAT ARE THERE LOOK LIKE THEM AND ACT LIKE THEM, TO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.

SOME OF THE THINGS THEY ASK FOR IS TO ELIMINATE THOSE PROFESSIONAL BEHAVIORS THAT ARE HAPPENING, THEY WANT THAT TO GO AWAY.

SO THAT THEY VOICES WILL BE HEARD AND THEY WILL BE BETTER BE TAKEN CARE OF.

CRYSTAL: WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE CONVERSATION THERE.

WE COULD TALK ABOUT THIS FOR HOURS.

SENATOR MIRANDA AND COLETTE DIEUJUSTE, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

MAYOR MICHELLE WU MAKE GOOD ON A CENTERPIECE OF HER CAMPAIGN, OFFICIALLY FILING HER RENT CONTROL PROPOSAL WITH CITY COUNCIL.

HER PLAN WOULD LINK RENT TO THE ECONOMY, CAPPING ANNUAL INCREASES BASED ON INFLATION, SETTING A MAXIMUM HEIGHT OF 10% WITH EXCEPTIONS FOR NEWER BUILDINGS AND SMALL OWNER-OCCUPIED PROPERTIES.

IT IS AN EFFORT TO SLOW DOWN EVER INCREASING RENT HIKES IN BOSTON, WHICH BEAT SAN FRANCISCO AS THE SECOND MOST EXPENSIVE CITY IN THE COUNTRY, FALLING BEHIND NEW YORK.

CITY COUNCIL IS THE FIRST HURDLE.

HER PLAN WILL NEED TO CLEAR.

MASSACHUSETTS VOTERS BAND RENT CONTROL A COUPLE OF DECADES BACK THE PROPOSAL WILL NEED TO CLEAR THE STATE LEGISLATURE TOO.

WE KNOW THAT WILL BE NO EASY JOB.

SEVERAL OTHER CITIES HAVE TRIED TO PASS SIMILAR RENT CONTROL BILLS IN RECENT YEARS.

NONE OF THEM HAVE PASSED.

WILL THIS TIME BE DIFFERENT?

SHOULD IT?

WE WILL GET INTO THIS DEBATE.

I AM JOINED BY MIKE LEYBA, CITY LIFE VIDA BOHNE -- WORKING FOR RACIAL EQUALITY IN BOSTON.

AND WE ARE HERE WITH DOUG QUATTROCHI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF MASS LANDLORDS INC. AND THE COFOUNDER OF RENTER HELPER.

THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

CRYSTAL: LET ME START WITH MIKE.

I KNOW THAT A LOT OF FOLKS IN YOUR SPACE, IN THE HOUSING EQUITY SPACE, HAVE SAID THIS IS NOT QUITE RENT CONTROL AT -- AND IT DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH.

MIKE: LET'’S TAKE A STEP BACK.

THE MAYOR CHOOSING TO PROPOSE THIS POLICY TO CITY COUNCIL IS ITSELF A HUGE POINT OF CELEBRATION.

WE HAVE BEEN WORKING TO BRING BACK RENT CONTROL FOR 30 YEARS.

SINCE IT WAS REPEALED IN 1994, WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BUILD THE GROUNDWORK AND LAY THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND SWAY PUBLIC OPINION THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR BOSTONIANS.

THE FACT THAT WE RENT THIS PLACE AND HAVE A PROPOSAL THAT IS CONCRETE IS ITSELF AN ACHIEVEMENT.

WE SHOULD BE CELEBRATING THAT TODAY.

THAT SAID, OF COURSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT IF IT WERE UP TO ME, IF I WERE THE MAYOR, I WOULD STRENGTHEN IT.

THERE'’S JUST A COUPLE OF SMALL POINTS WE FEEL CAN REALLY TIGHTEN UP THIS POLICY OVERALL.

CRYSTAL: WHAT ARE THOSE POINTS?

MIKE: YOU MENTIONED THE CALF ON RENT INCREASES.

THE MAYOR'’S PROPOSAL IS CPI PLUS 6%.

IN OTHER WORDS, RENT CAN GO UP 6% IN A GIVEN YEAR PLUS THE AMOUNT OF INFLATION.

IT IS ALREADY STARTING FROM A PLACE THAT IT IS INEVITABLE RENT WILL GO UP YEAR AFTER YEAR, UP TO 6%, EVEN BEFORE WE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW COSTS ARE RISING.

PEOPLE IN MASSACHUSETTS TODAY, LAST YEAR AND IN THE PAST YEARS ARE STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

ANY STEP ABOVE INFLATION IS ALREADY GOING TO CAUSE SEVERE ECONOMIC STRAIN ON PEOPLE TRYING TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

CRYSTAL: LET'’S TALK OF THE EFFECT ON LANDLORDS.

WHAT KIND OF IMPACT WILL HAVE ON THEM?

DOUG: THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

THE MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL TO LOOK AT IS THAT EXEMPTION FOR PROPERTIES BUILT WITHIN THE MOST RECENT 15 YEARS.

THAT IS NOWHERE IN THE PROPOSAL THAT THE MAYOR SENT TO CITY COUNCIL YESTERDAY.

A COUPLE OF PARAGRAPHS SAY WE CAN MAKE ADDITIONAL REGULATIONS, AND I ASSUME THAT IS WHERE THE EXEMPTION FOR NEWLY BUILT PROPERTIES COMES IN, BUT THAT IS NOT IN THE PROPOSAL.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SMALL PRINT, IT SAYS WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH A BOARD THAT WOULD OVERSEE RENT AND ESTABLISH A FAIR RATE OF RETURN.

THAT BASICALLY TAKES THE CAT THAT LOOKS KIND OF REASONABLE BECAUSE IT IS TIED TO INFLATION AND THROWS IT OUT THE WINDOW AND SAYS, WE CAN SAY A LANDLORD IS NOT ALLOWED TO DOES -- NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE RENT AT ALL.

THAT DOES NOT RECOGNIZE RISING COSTS OF REAL ESTATE, PROFESSIONAL SERVICES LIKE PLUMBING, REAL ESTATE TAX, INSURANCE COSTS.

HOUSING IS NOT FREE AND THERE A LOT OF EXPENSE TO IT.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT COST CONTROL ANYWAY.

LANDLORDS ARE APPREHENSIVE ABOUT THIS PROPOSAL BECAUSE IT IS NOTHING LIKE THE OREGON SYSTEM THAT IS CUT AND DRY.

IT IS REALLY UNCLEAR HOW THIS IS GOING TO PLAY OUT.

CRYSTAL: HISTORICALLY, IT SEEMS LIKE WITH THE LEGISLATION THAT IS IN PLACE, SINCE 1994, HAS BEEN IN FAVOR OF LANDLORDS.

WE HAVE NO-FAULT EVICTION.

WE REPEALED RENT CONTROL.

HISTORICALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THAT LEGISLATION EXISTS, TECHNICALLY LANDLORDS COULD EXPECT THESE PROPOSALS WOULD STAND AS THEY ARE BEING DISCUSSED.

DOUG: ESPECIALLY THE SO-CALLED PROHIBITION ON RENT CONTROL.

-- ACTUALLY ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE RENT CONTROL.

THE MAYOR COULD HAVE RENT CONTROL IN THE NEXT CITY COUNCIL MEETING IF SHE ENACTED -- AS LONG AS YOU REIMBURSE OWNERS FOR THE DIFFERENCE.

TO YOUR POINT, WE COULD HAVE AN ABSOLUTE CAP ON RENT INCREASES AS 0%, BUT AS HOUSING COSTS CONTINUE TO RISE, THE CITY WOULD HAVE TO REIMBURSE OWNERS.

THAT IS NOT PARTICULARLY OWN OR, IT IS ECONOMIC GIVEN.

IT TURNS RENT CONTROL INTO RENTAL ASSISTANCE.

THAT WOULD REALLY, IN OUR VIEW, HELP BECAUSE THE MAYOR WOULD BE FUNDING A NEW RENTAL ASSISTANCE.

INSTEAD WE HAVE THIS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING WHERE RENT CONTROL BOARDS ARE TRYING TO WORK AROUND 40-P, WHICH IS REASONABLE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OPTIONS OUT THERE AND THEY ARE MOSTLY RENTAL ASSISTANCE.

CRYSTAL: WE ARE LOOKING AT RECORD LEVEL RENT.

WHEN YOU READ THIS NUMBER, I DO NOT KNOW THAT A LOT OF FOLKS THOUGHT BOSTON WOULD BE ABLE TO SURPASS SAN FRANCISCO IN SOME OF THIS DATA WE HAVE BEEN KEEPING.

DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE ENOUGH TO GET FOLKS BACK INTO THEIR APARTMENTS?

OR TO STAY IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS?

MIKE: I DO NOT KNOW WHAT PEOPLE EXPECTED WOULD HAPPEN.

AFTER YEARS OF DEREGULATION AND LETTING THE INDUSTRY DO EXACTLY WHAT THE INDUSTRY WANTS TO DO, THIS IS WHERE WE ARE.

IT IS NOT MAGIC.

IT IS NOT AN IMAGINARY IDEA.

THIS IS JUST THE WAY THE MARKET WORKS.

IT IS INTERESTING WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REIMBURSING LANDLORD PROFIT, THAT IS AN INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE I HAVE TO SAY.

I DISAGREE WITH THE NOTION THAT THE MAYOR COULD AUTOMATICALLY DO THAT WITH THE CITY COUNCIL TOMORROW.

I DO NOT THINK THAT IS ACCURATE.

DOUG: IT IS THE LAW.

MIKE: LET'’S NOT CREATE ANOTHER LANDLORD SUBSIDY.

THAT'’S PROBABLY A BAD IDEA.

EITHER WAY, WE BELIEVE, WE THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN BOSTON, MOST WORKING-CLASS PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING.

INFLATION IS HIGH.

RENT IS HIGH.

THE COST OF LIVING, EDUCATION, EVEN GAS.

EGGS.

EVERYTHING IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE.

THE PLACE THAT WE DRAW THE LINE IS WHERE WE SAY, YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE AWAY ACCESS TO THIS CRITICAL, LIFESAVING, HEALTH MAINTAINING NEED THAT PEOPLE HAVE.

THAT IS WHERE WE SAY THE LINE IS.

YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE AWAY SOMETHING THAT IS SOMEBODY'’S ABILITY TO REMAIN STABLE HE HOUSE, KEEP THEIR KIDS IN SCHOOL, ACCESS THEIR JOB AND HEALTH CARE.

THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOUSING AND OTHER COMMODITIES.

THERE IS A SOCIAL BENEFIT AND SOCIAL USED TO HOUSING.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS SOMETHING THAT OUR CITY DESPERATELY NEEDS.

I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THE MAYOR'’S PROPOSAL -- IT IS PRETTY SIMILAR TO THE OREGON CAP.

THE OREGON CAP IS BEING DONE FOR AN ENTIRE STATE.

RURAL AREAS, SUBURBAN AREAS, URBAN AREAS.

WE ARE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT AUSTIN, ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PLACES TO LIVE IN THE COUNTRY.

OTHER PLACES HAVE SOME FORM OF RENT STABILIZATION ALREADY.

NEW YORK, CALIFORNIA, NEW JERSEY.

FRANKLY, NEW JERSEY HAS A SCHEME THAT ALLOWS FOR MUCH STRONGER RENT CONTROLLED AND IS BEING DONE ALMOST ANYWHERE ELSE.

CRYSTAL: EVERY TIME I ATTEMPT TO DO A STORY ABOUT THIS OR DO ANY RESEARCH, IT SEEMS LIKE THESE LARGE CORPORATE OWNERS, THESE MEGA BUILDINGS, MEGA HIGH-RISES HAVE DIFFERENT RULES THAN SMALL LANDLORDS TWO.

-- DO.

THE IMPACT IS FELT DIFFERENTLY, BUT IT FEELS LIKE THE LEGISLATION HAS TO AFFECT EVERYONE IN A SIMILAR WAY.

DO YOU THINK SMALLER LANDLORDS WILL BE BETTER PROTECTED UNDER THIS WU LEGISLATION THAN THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST?

DOUG: NO.

ON THE FACE OF IT, IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS INTENDED TO HELP SMALL LANDLORDS.

IF YOU OWN OR OCCUPY A SIX UNIT BUILDING, YOU ARE EXEMPTED.

THERE IS A LARGE SPECTRUM BETWEEN A LANDLORD WHO LIVES IN THE BUILDING ACROSS THE STREET FROM THEIR RENTAL AND THE LARGE INTERSTATE CORPORATIONS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT BEHAVE VERY DIFFERENT FROM A TYPICAL MOM-AND-POP LANDLORD.

THERE ARE LOTS OF FOLKS WHO PROVIDE HOUSING IN BOSTON WHO ARE NEIGHBORS IN THE COMMUNITY.

THEY ARE NEARBY, BUT THEY DO NOT LIVE IN THE BUILDING AND THEY WILL NOT BE EXEMPTED FROM RENT CONTROL.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SAN FRANCISCO OR NEW YORK WHICH HAS NATION LEADING HIGH RENTS, THEY HAVE HAD RENT CONTROL FOR DECADES.

THE REASON THERE RENT IS SO HIGH DESPITE CONTROL IS BECAUSE THOSE RENTS MEASURE THE UNREGULATED MARKET RENTS.

WHEN YOU HAVE RENT CONTROL IN A SYSTEM LIKE IN BOSTON, RENTERS RATIONALLY STAY AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

IF YOU HAVE A COMPLETE RENT CONTROL SYSTEM, YOU CAN HAVE TENDONS STAY 10 TIMES LONGER THAN AVERAGE.

SO THESE APARTMENTS NEVER COME UP FOR RENT.

THE ONES THAT DO, LIKE MY THREE DECKER HERE WOULD BE EXEMPT IF I WERE IN BOSTON.

I WOULD BE ABLE TO CHARGE MARKET RENT.

SO, MY RENT GOES UP BECAUSE OTHER HOUSING HAS BEEN TAKEN OFF THE MARKET.

THERE'’S A LOT OF FACTORS HERE.

SMALL OWNERS COVER A LARGE SPECTRUM.

IT'’S REALLY THAT SMALL LANDLORDS COULD JUST LIVE ACROSS THE STREET AND WOULD STILL BE SUBJECT TO RENT CONTROL.

CRYSTAL: IN THE LAST MINUTE, MIKE, IS THIS REASON TO CELEBRATE?

I GUESS FOR THE FOLKS YOU WORK WITH, OR IS IT LIKE, MAYBE?

MIKE: WE ARE GOING TO TAKE -- WE ARE GOING TO CELEBRATE.

IT IS NOT INEVITABLE THAT WE WIN RENT CONTROL IN BOSTON OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE STATE.

THE THING WE REALLY NEED PEOPLE TO DO IS MAKE THEIR VOICE KNOWN.

OVER HALF OF BOSTON RESIDENTS, BOSTON HOUSEHOLDS ARE RENTERS.

OVER HALF OF THOSE ARE -- ALMOST HALF.

OUR PEOPLE NEED RENT STABILIZATION.

WE NEED RENT CONTROL AND WE NEED OUR PEOPLE TO TELL THEIR LEGISLATORS THAT THAT IS WHAT WE NEED.

WE NEED THE STRONGEST VERSION OF THIS POLICY TO KEEP PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES.

CRYSTAL: DOUG, FINAL WORD.

DOUG: WE AGREE THAT FOLKS SHOULD NOT GET DISPLACED.

THAT IS WHY MASS LANDLORDS IS SUING THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING OVER PANDEMIC RENTAL ASSISTANCE BECAUSE THAT SAFETY NET FAILED A TON OF PEOPLE.

RENT CONTROL PROBABLY IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO, BUT IF THERE WERE A SCHEME THAT WAS LIKE RENTAL ASSISTANCE, THAT WOULD WORK AND THAT IS ALLOWED CURRENTLY.

CRYSTAL: WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

MIKE LEYBA AND DOUG QUATTROCHI, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

I AM CRYSTAL HAYNES.

GOOD NIGHT.

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