>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

♪ ♪ ISRAELIS PROTEST THEIR GOVERNMENT'S PLANS TO OVERHAUL THE JUDICIARY.

MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH ISRAEL'S FORMER AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE WHO RESIGNED OVER HER COUNTRY'S FAR RIGHT LEADERSHIP.

>>> THEN RESCUE EFFORTS WIND DOWN AS SYRIA FINALLY OPENS UP TWO MORE BORDER CROSSINGS FOR QUAKE AID.

I'M JOINED BY THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA ROBERT FORD.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> I NEVER SEEN A MOMENT WHEN PUTIN SHOWS ANY SIGN OF COMPROMISE ANY NEGOTIATION, ANY REASONABLENESS.

>> ONCE RUSSIA'S LARGEST FOREIGN INVESTOR, BILL TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY THE WORLD MUST PRIORITIZE DEFEATING VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COO AND PATRICIA EWAN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WHERE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT JOINS THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE CONDEMNING HAVING UNITS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANG AND UNDERMINE EFFORTS TO ACHIEVE A NEGOTIATE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

IT'S THE LATEST AS ISRAEL'S FAR RIGHT COALITION FACES A BARRAGE OF CRITICISM INCLUDING FROM THE STAUNCH'S ALLY WASHINGTON.

JOE BIDEN TOOK THE UNPRECEDENTED STEP OF QUESTIONING ANY EFFORT INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY TELLING "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THE GENIUS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND ISRAELI DEMOCRACY IS THAT THEY ARE BOTH BUILT ON STRONG INSTITUTIONS ON CHECKS AND BALANCES ON AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY BUILDING CONSENSUS FOR FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ENSURE THAT THE PEOPLE BUY INTO THEM SO THEY CAN BE SUSTAINED.

IN A MOMENT, I'LL BE SPEAKING EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT THIS TO ISRAEL'S FORMER AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE WHO RESIGNED BECAUSE SHE FEELS SHE COULD NO LONGER SERVE THIS GOVERNMENT.

BUT FIRST, WE WANT TO BRING YOU THE PICTURE FROM INSIDE ISRAEL WITH CORRESPONDENT GOLD ON THE POLICY AND PROTESTERS WHO ARE DETERMINED NOT TO LET IT PASS.

>> Reporter: BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS PROTESTERS STREAMED INTO JERUSALEM WITH DRUMS, FLAGS, SIGNS, CHANTING SINGING SONGS.

ONE OF THE LARGEST DEMONSTRATIONS FOR JERUSALEM IN YEARS AS THESE PROTESTERS SKIPPED WORK AND SCHOOL TO STAND AGAINST PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND THE GOVERNMENT'S SWEEPING JUDICIAL REFORM PLANS, FUND MENTALLY ALTERING THE BALANCE OF POWER TO OVERTURN SUPREME COURT DECISIONS WITH A SIMPLE MAJORITY.

FOR WEEKS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELI HAVES HAVE BEEN COMING TO THE STREETS OF TEL AVIV TO PROTEST BUT ON MONDAY, THE DAY THE JUDICIAL REFORMS WERE INTRODUCED, THEY DECIDED TO COME HERE SO THE SHOUTS OF THE TENS OF THOUSANDS COULD BE HEARD IN THE HALLS OF THE PARLIAMENT.

>> JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT A SLIM MAJORITY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE RIGHT IS WITH THEM.

CHANGING THEIR SPIRIT AND THE LIFE OF THE COUNTRY FROM A DEMOCRACY TO A REGIME, WE DON'T WANT TO GO THERE.

>> Reporter: INSIDE THE ISRAELI PARLIAMENT, PASSING THE FIRST LEGISLATIVE TEST IN A COMMITTEE HEARING.

TO PROTESTS FROM OPPOSITION LAWMAKERS WHO JUMPED OVER TABLES YELLING SHAME AND DISGRACE BEFORE BEING FORCIBLY REMOVED BY SECURITY.

NETANYAHU ACCUSING OPPOSITION LEADERS OF DEIBERATELY JOINING INTO ANARCHY.

THE NIGHT BEFORE THE PLEA IN A TELEVISED ADDRESS FOR CONSENSUS AND A WARNING.

>> Translator: WE ARE AT A MOMENT BEFORE A CONFRONTATION.

BROTHERS ARE ABOUT TO RAISE THEIR HANDS AGAINST BROTHERS.

>> Reporter: U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WEIGHING IN SAYING THE GENIUS OF AMERICAN AND ISRAELI DEMOCRACIES BUILT ON STRONG INSTITUTIONS ON CHECKS AND BALANCES AND ON AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY.

PERHAPS THE MESSAGE RECEIVED MONDAY EVENING AFTER THE PROTESTERS CLEARED THE STREETS, AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE THAT WHILE THEY WEREN'T GOING TO STOP THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS, THEY WILL MEET WITH OPPOSITION LEADERS TO START NEGOTIATIONS.

>> MORE THAN 100 FORMER ISRAELI DIPLOMATS WROTE TO NETANYAHU PROTESTING ANY CHANGES TO THE JUDICIARY AND AT LEAST ONE SERVING DIPLOMAT HAS RESIGNED.

SHE IS ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE UNTIL JUST TWO DAYS AGO.

IN DECEMBER, SHE HAD SENT THIS MESSAGE TO THE PRIME MINISTER QUOTE I CANNOT LIE TO MYSELF AND CONTINUE REPRESENTING A POLICY THAT IS SO RADICALLY DIFFERENT FROM EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IN AND SHE IS JOINING ME FROM TELL LA -- TEL AVIV FROM HER FIRST INTERVIEW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD EVENING.

>> CAN I ASK YOU STRAIGHT OUT, WHAT EXACTLY ABOUT THIS DID YOU RESIGN OVER?

WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT AND SO CATACLYSMIC FOR YOU THAT YOU STEPPED ASIDE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, AS YOU KNOW, MY OFFICE IS A TRUST OFFICE.

IT MEANS THAT I GOT IT FROM TRUST, BY TRUST FROM THE PRIOR PRIME MINISTER.

HE GAVE IT TO ME BECAUSE HE TRUSTED ME AND I GOT IT BECAUSE I TRUSTED HIM AND THE POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT THAT HE WAS AHEAD OF.

BUT I TOLD HIM THEN AND IT WAS CLEAR FOR ME THE GOVERNMENT WILL CHANGE, I WILL QUIT MY OFFICE BECAUSE THEN I DIDN'T GET THE TRUST FROM THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT AND THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT I CAN'T REPRESENT THE VALUES AS I BELIEVE IN OTHER VENUES.

>> SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU ARE IN A POLITICAL APPOINTEE BY THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT THAT HAS A THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT THAT IS THE ONLY REASON WHY YOU RESIGNED?

AND THEREFORE, WHY NOT?

OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POLICY HAS TROUBLED YOU?

I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IS WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POLICY, IF ANYTHING, THAT HAS CAUSED YOUR ACTION?

>> WHEN YOU HAVE A TRUST POLICY, WHEN YOU'RE HAVING A TRUST OFFICE IT COMES OUT OF TRUST.

I TRUSTED MY FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL AND HE TRUSTED ME.

THE MOMENT THAT THE GOVERNMENT CHANGED AND THERE CAME ANOTHER GOVERNMENT AND ANOTHER PRIME MINISTER, OBVIOUSLY, THEN THERE IS NO TRUST BETWEEN THEM AND ME AND I HAD TO RESIGN WHETHER I LIKE THE POLICY OR NOT.

>> OKAY.

WELL, THAT'S IMPORTANT THEN.

>> THE SHEER.

>> THAT'S IMPORTANT TO MAKE THE CLARIFICATION.

YOU'RE NOT NECESSARILY RESIGNING OVER THIS POLICY.

SO LET ME ASK YOU I REPORTED 105 AT LEAST, FORMER ISRAELI DIPLOMATS DID SEND A LETTER TO PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AFTER THE COALITION ASSUMED OFFICE WARNING ABOUT ISRAEL'S GLOBAL STATUS AND STANDING IF THE INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY WAS COMPROMISED.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT AND IF SO, IN WHAT WAY DO YOU THINK ISRAEL'S GLOBAL STATUS MIGHT BE COMPROMISED?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I DO APPRECIATE THIS LETTER AND I WOULD HAVE SIGNED THIS LETTER SHOULD THEY ASK ME AND I ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO WARN THE GOVERNMENT AGAINST WHAT IS GOING TO BE A TSUNAMI AGAINST ISRAEL.

I WOULD LIKE TO REALLY POINT OUT THAT WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW IN ISRAEL AND THERE IS BECAUSE WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR CHARACTER.

THE CHARACTER OF ISRAEL IS BEING -- IS A COUNTRY, IS A JEWISH AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND WE ARE NOW FIGHTING FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE WON'T LET ANYONE CHANGE THIS CHARACTER.

>> OKAY.

FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT DO YOU MEAN ABOUT A TSUNAMI COMING AGAINST ISRAEL?

KIND OF TSUNAMI?

FROM WHERE?

>> DIPLOMATIC.

>> FROM THE WORLD?

FROM?

>> FROM ALL THE COUNTRY THAT CHERISH LOVE AND HAVE RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL BECAUSE ISRAEL IS THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN OUR REGION.

IT'S ONE OF OUR TREASURES, THE DEMOCRACY.

IF WE'RE GOING TO LOSE IT, WE'RE GOING TO LOSE A LOT IN THE PUBLIC OPINION OF THE WORLD.

>> WELL, AS I SAID, YOU SAW ME CITE THE NUMBER OF GOVERNMENTS THAT PROTESTED THE SETTLEMENT POLICY AND WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU KNOW PRESIDENT MACRON OF FRANCE WHERE YOU REPRESENTED ISRAEL VISITED RECENTLY THAT AND ACCORDING TO THE TIMES OF ISRAEL AND INCLUDE THAT ISRAEL HAS EMERGED FROM A CONCEPTION OF DEMOCRACY OVER JUDICIARY GOES THROUGH.

I THINK YOU SAID THAT.

>> YES, YES, ACTUALLY, PRESIDENT MACRON SET A RED LINE AND HE SAID SHOULD THIS LEGISLATION PASS, THEN WE WON'T BE ANY MORE DEMOCRACY AND THAT IS A RED LINE.

>> AS YOU HEARD WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, QUITE UNPRECEDENTED COMMENTARY IN AN INTERNAL ISRAELI MATTER BUT HE ALSO MADE THE SAME POINT AND SENATOR DICK DURBAN LIKE MOST AMERICANS AND LEGISLATORS LONG TERM AND VERY STRONG SUPPORTERS OF ISRAEL SAID HE'S CONCERNED THAT NETANYAHU THE PRIME MINISTER IS PUTTING HIS OWN NARCOTICRY LEGAL -- LEGAL INTEREST AHEAD OF OTHERS.

NETANYAHU DENIES THAT.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS A PERSONAL THING OR BIGGER?

>> I'D LIKE TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.

I DON'T LIKE TALKING AGAINST MY PRIME MINISTER EVEN THOUGH PERHAPS I DON'T THINK WE'RE WITH HIM AND PERHAPS I DO IT WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A POINT, ANOTHER POINT.

THE ISRAELI PEOPLE THAT WON'T LET ANYONE, NOT NETANYAHU, NOT ANYONE CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

WHEN I WAS TAUGHT THAT THE DECOLORATION, OF INDEPENDENT, THIS DECOLORATION, OF INDEPENDENT IS OUR I.D.

AND NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CHANGE IT AND IN OUR DECOLORATION, OF DEMOCRACY, IN OUR I.D., IT IS WRITTEN LOUD AND CLEAR THAT WE'RE A DEMOCRACY, THAT WE THRIVE FOR PEACE, EQUALITY AND FREEDOM AND NO ONE CAN CHANGE IT.

THAT'S OUR IDEA THAT OUR FOREFATHERS SIGNED 74 YEARS AGO AND NOBODY GAVE NO ONE THE PERMISSION TO CHANGE IT.

>> WELL, YES, BUT THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ELECTED SO WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS.

YOU'RE RIGHT AND WE'VE SHOWN THE PICTURES THAT A VERY DIFFERENT COALITION OF ISRAELIS HAVE COME ON THE STREETS.

WE KNOW MANY FORMER INTELLIGENCE, MANY FORMER SECURITY OFFICIALS INCLUDING HIGH TECH AND HIGH TECH, YOU KNOW, BUSINESS PEOPLE WHO DON'T GENERALLY GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS AND ALSO ARMY RESERVISTS BUT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS SAID THE FOLLOWING TO CNN ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING.

HE'S BASICALLY SAYING IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> HERE IS A COUNTRY THAT HAS EXACTLY THIS PROVISION.

IT'S CALLED CANADA.

IS CANADA NOT A DEMOCRACY?

IS BRITAIN NOT A DEMOCRACY?

THEY HAVE PROVISIONS OF SUCH A PROVISION OR NO ABILITY OF THE COURT TO STRIKE DOWN LAWS.

>> SO HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT?

WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE PROVISIONS THAT HIS GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO RAM THROUGH?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T LIKE TO ARGUE WITH PRIME MINISTER, MAYBE I WOULD LIKE TO DO IT BUT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IT HERE IN ISRAEL AND NOT THROUGH CNN BUT I HAVE TO ANSWER THAT YOU CAN'T COM COMPARE CANADA TO ISRAEL.

CANADA HAS AN INSTITUTION.

CANADA HAS TWO PARLIAMENTS.

WE DON'T HAVE IT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE HAVE A DECOLORATION, OF DEMOCRACY THAT IS AS I SAID, THIS IS OUR I.D.

AND NETANYAHU DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE IT.

EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ELECTED BY 64 MEMBERS, DO WE THINK THAT WE KNOW WE'RE GETTING INTO THE DEFINITION OF DEMOCRACY.

DEMOCRACY IS NOT ONLY THE MAJORITY.

DEMOCRACY IS ALSO THE VALUES.

DEMOCRACY WITH THAT VALUES HAS NO, NO -- IT DOESN'T STAND FOR NOTHING WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT VALUES, ABOUT IDEAS.

AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP THOSE IDEAS EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE ELECTED BY MAJORITY.

MAJORITY IS ONLY THE OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRACY AND THE IDEAS IS DEMOCRACY.

>> UH-HUH.

>> AND EQUALITY AND LIBERTY.

>> UH-HUH.

>> I HEAR YOU AND OTHER PARTS OF EUROPE AS WELL.

ELECTED DEMOCRACIES ARE CALLING THEMSELVES LIBERAL DEMOCRAIES AND FOUNDING PRINCIPLE PS INCLUDING THE JUDICIARY.

WHAT ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT -- >> WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE THEM.

>> EXACTLY.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE THOSE.

WE ARE VERY CONCERNED IF THIS REVOLUTION COMES THROUGH AND IF THE LEGISLATION WILL BE LEGISLATED IN OUR STATE, THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT WILL BE WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

THERE WILL BE NO RESTRICTION FOR THE PARLIAMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS AND DECIDE WHATEVER IT WANTS AND THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.

I WOULD SAY THIS IS THE DICTATOR.

>> AMBASSADOR, OBVIOUSLY, ALSO, IN TERMS OF FOR YOU DOMESTIC POLICY FOR THE U.S., IT'S INTERNATIONAL POLICY, THE IDEA OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND SETTLEMENT AND THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN ALONG WITH OTHERS HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY MUCH AFTER THE TRIP TAKING THE PRIME MINISTER NOT TO TAKE STEPS.

WE'RE TROUBLED BY THE DECISION TO ADVANCE 10,000 SETTLEMENT UNITS LIKE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS, DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN WE STRONGLY OPPOSE SUCH UNLATTER L MEASURES WHICH EXACERBATE TENSIONS AND UNDERMINE THE PROSPECTS FOR A NEGOTIATED TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE.

I WANT TO KNOW AS A DIPLOMAT, IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR ANYTHING RESEMBLING NEGOTIATIONS ON A TWO-STATE SOLUTION GIVEN THE SETTLEMENTS AND THE SETTLEMENT BELIEVERS ARE EMBOLDENED.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND THE OUTSTANDING SPEECH OF THE PRIME MINISTER IN THE U.N. DOWN THE TWO STATE SOLUTION CLEARLY AND THE SOLUTION IS A TWO STATE SOLUTION AND ONE OF THEM IS NOT ONLY A LOT OF ISRAELIS WHO THINK LIKE HIM BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT SHOULD I GIVE YOU NOW A PAPER SIGNED IS A PEACE TREATY WITH THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND I'LL TELL YOU GO AHEAD, GO TO WHATEVER YOU WANT, I WONDER IF YOU'LL FIND ONE PALESTINIAN LEADER THAT WILL BE WILLING TO SIGN IT SO PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE PALESTINIANS DIDN'T WANT TO SIGN THE TREATY TO OFFER THEM THREE TIMES, LAST TIME IT WAS WHEN PRIME MINISTER PREVIOUS PRIME MINISTER OFFERED A PIECE TREATY WITH 96% OF THE TERRITORIES THAT ARE WILLING TO GIVE UP.

HE GAVE IT AND HE TOLD HIM OKAY, I'M GOING WITH IT TO MY COUNSEL AND I'LL BE BACK.

HE NEVER CAME BACK.

HE NEVER GAVE A POSITIVE ANSWER SO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IT AND THERE IS ALSO ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO MAKE A -- TO TRY IT.

WHEN YOU COME INTO ANY SCHOOL IN ISRAEL AND ASK THE STUDENTS WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE FOR ISRAEL?

THERE WOULD BE ONE ANSWER, PEACE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> ALL THE STUDENTS WHEREVER YOU GO WILL ANSWER THIS.

TRY TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION IN GAZA OR IN THE CITY OF JORDAN.

YOU GOT ANOTHER ANSWER AND WE WOULD LIKE ISRAEL TO BE OUT OF THE REGION.

WE WOULD LIKE ALL THE JEWS IN ISRAEL TO BE DEAD.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST.

>> AMBASSADOR.

>> EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SHOULD KNOW AND BEAR IN MIND THAT ON THE OTHER SIDE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DOESN'T WANT US TO BE ALIVE, WHO DOESN'T THINK THAT WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT FOR OUR OWN COUNTRY.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE THAT BUT LIKE YOU SAID, THE MAJORITY, I THINK YOU SAID MOST ISRAELIS AND MOST STUDENTS IN ISRAEL WANT PEACE.

THE LATEST POLLS FROM THE PALESTINIAN SIDE ALSO SHOW THAT THEY WANT A PEACEFUL TWO STATE SOLUTION TO CO-EXIST WITH YOU.

IT IS A -- IT'S A CONUNDRUM.

CAN I FINALLY ASK YOU BECAUSE YOUR PRESIDENT WHEN HE MADE HIS ADDRESS TO THE NATION, HE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF AN EXPLOSION, A SOCIAL EXPLOSION.

HE TALKED ABOUT IF THIS ALL WENT THROUGH, IT COULD REALLY DAMAGE THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL COHESION OF THE NATION.

WE'VE SEEN IN 2021 WHEN ISRAELI JEWS AND ARABS WENT AT IT.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY POSSIBILITY OF A SORT OF A CIVIL CONFLICT OVER THIS POLITICAL CRISIS THAT YOU'RE FACING?

>> I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THERE IS NO SUCH CHANCE BECAUSE ACTUALLY WE ARE ONE PEOPLE AND WE ARE VERY UNITED BUT YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE THAT SUCH A THING WON'T HAPPEN.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE ON THE STREET.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE FIGHTING.

WE'RE FIGHTING FOR OUR COUNTRY.

WE'RE FIGHTING FOR OUR COMMUNITY WE'RE FIGHTING FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE'RE FIGHTING FOR PEACE TO BE SOMEONE.

WE'RE FIGHTING FOR HOPE.

AND I'M SURE THAT WE WILL GAIN AND THAT WE WILL WIN EVENTUALLY.

>> REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING TO GET YOUR VALUABLE PERSPECTIVE.

AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AMBASSADOR.

THANK YOU VERY BEING WITH US FROM TEL AVIV.

>> THANK YOU AND GOOD EVENING.

>>> THE DEATH TOLL ACROSS TURKEY AND SYRIA CONTINUES TO CLIMB.

MORE THAN A WEEK SINCE THE 7.8 MAGNITUDE EARTHQUAKE STRUCK THE REGION, MORE THAN 41,000 PEOPLE ARE CONFIRMED DEAD WITH MANY MORE INJURED.

RESCUES DO CONTINUE TO OFFER HOPE.

LOOK AT THIS VIDEO OF A WOMAN BEING PULLED FROM THE RUBBLE ALIVE AFTER 203 HOURS.

BUT AS TIME TICKS AWAY, AID WORKERS ARE SAYING THE WINDOWS FOR MIRACLES LIKE THIS ARE COMING TO A CLOSE.

NOW, THE FOCUS IS ON GETTING AID TO THE DESPERATELY NEEDED.

IN SYRIA, FINALLY, PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASSAD OPENED TWO MORE BORDER CROSSINGS TO ALLOW IN HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS THE U.S.

DIPLOMAT ROBERT FORD WHO SERVED AS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA AMID THE BLOODY CIVIL WAR.

AMBASSADOR FORD, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

CAN I ASK YOU, I'M NOT SURE WHETHER YOU WERE LISTENING TO FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR BUT SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY EM PASSIONED TO BE A THREAT IN TERMS OF A THREAT AGAINST AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT AND YOU'VE HEARD THE U.S. PRESIDENT AND OTHERS TALK ABOUT IT?

>> WELL, IT'S CLEAR, CHRISTIANE THERE IS A LOT OF DISAGREEMENT IN ISRAEL AND BIG DEMONSTRATIONS.

THERE WAS ONE YESTERDAY IN JERUSALEM AND TEL AVIV, AS WELL.

WHAT IS FOR ME THE MOST STRIKING PERHAPS IS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF BUT ALSO THE SECRETARY OF STATE TONY BLINKEN HAVE ACTUALLY MADE COMMENTS ABOUT THE INTERNAL POLITICAL DEBATE IN ISRAEL.

>> WHAT WOULD BE THE CONNECTION FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR ITS ALLIANCE AND POLICIES UNTIL THE REGION OR ANYWHERE IF ISRAEL'S DEMOCRACY WAS COMPROMISED?

>> I THINK ADMINISTRATION IS BEING A LITTLE CAREFUL.

THEY USE THE WORD CONSENSUS AND URGE THE ISRAELI POLITICAL LEADERSHIP TO BUILD A CONSENSUS AMONG ISRAELIS THEMSELVES.

THAT IS A KIND OF NICE GENTLE WAY OF THE AMERICANS SAYING BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE STEPS YOU'RE TAKING BECAUSE THEY ARE DECISIVE.

I THINK LONGER TERM, I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON WHO ARE WONDERING TWO THINGS.

FIRST, IS ISRAEL GOING TO BE A DEMOCRACY OR NOT OVER THE MEDIUM AND LONG TERM AND SECOND, RELATED TO THE TWO STATE SOLUTION THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT BRIEFLY THERE, WILL ISRAEL BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN ITS STATUS AS A DEMOCRACY IF IT ABSORBS THROUGH ANNEXATION MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS?

>> CAN I ASK YOU NOW TO TALK ABOUT WHAT UNSPEAKABLE HORROR IN TERMS OF A NATURAL DISASTER IS HAPPENING IN SYRIA WHERE YOU WERE, THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR?

WE KNOW THAT THROUGH INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, I SUPPOSE, OR WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF WHY BASHAR ASSAD DECIDED TO ALLOW TWO MORE OPENINGS MORE THAN A WEEK AFTER THIS EARTHQUAKE FOR HIS PEOPLE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY IT'S A SURPRISE.

I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE EXPECTED IT.

I THINK THE U.N., HUMANITARIAN RELIEF BOSS, MARTIN TALKED TO HIM.

I SUSPECT ALSO THAT THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES WAS JUST IN KAMAS -- DAMASCUS AND HE WAS URGED TO TAKE THE STEP.

I SUSPECT ASSAD HAS TWO CALCULATIONS IN HIS MIND.

ONE IS MAKING THIS GESTURE.

IF IT'S IMPLEMENTED, IT IS IMPORTANT MAY HELP HIM NORMALIZE RELATIONS WITH SOME COUNTRIES AND THE SECOND REASON I SUSPECT HE DID IT IS HE COULDN'T REALLY CONTROL THOSE TWO ADDITIONAL BORDER CROSSINGS ANYWAY.

THEY ARE CONTROLLED BY THE TURKS ON THE TURKISH SIDE AND BY SYRIAN REBEL GROUPS AND ALREADY SOME NON-GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS, SOME AID ORGANIZATIONS WERE BEGINNING TO USE THEM AND SO WITH THIS ANNOUNCEMENT FROM BASHAR AL-ASSAD'S GOVERNMENT THEY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMETHING THAT WOULD LIKELY HAPPEN WITH OR WITHOUT THEM.

>> I WAS SPEAKING TO THE GLOBAL AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR HUMANITARIAN AND OTHER ACCOUNTABILITY WAR CRIMES AND THE LIKE.

BETH VAN SCOTT.

SHE -- I ASKED HER ABOUT WHY -- WHAT CAN BE DONE TO HOLD A LEADER ACCOUNTABILITY IF HE OR SHE DELL -- DELIBERATELY CAN BE A VIOLATION OF LAW OF WAR AND USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR IS A CRIMINALLY PUNISHABLE WAR CRIME SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THAT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE LEADER OF A COUNTRY WOULD NOT WANT TO OPEN ALL THE FLOOD GATES WHEREVER THEY MAY BE LEADING TO TO HELP HIS PEOPLE IF HE WANTS TO BE CONSIDERED LEADER OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE?

>> CHRISTIANE, I DON'T THINK SINCE THIS CONFLICT IN SYRIA BEGAN FOR THESE INSTANCES WHERE BASHAR AL-ASSAD IS NOT INTO THE SYRIA CIVILIANS THAT ARE IN HIS RULE AND ALL THE ATROCITIES AND ASSAD GOVERNMENT HAS COMMITTED FOR ANYONE TO PRESUME THAT HE CARES ABOUT ALL OF THE CITIZENS OF SYRIA, I THINK THAT WOULD BE QUITE A STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

>> THERE ARE MANY IN THE HUMANITARIAN FIELD LIKE THE WHITE HELMETS WHO ARE UPSET WITH THE WORLD AND UPSET IT HAS TAKEN THE U.N. AND OTHERS THIS LONG TO GET THIS AMOUNT OF BASIC HUMANITARIAN CARE AND NEED INTO THAT DESPERATELY NEEDY PLACE.

THE U.N. JUST LAUNCHED TODAY A $397 MILLION HUMANITARIAN APPEAL FOR THE VERDICTS IN SYRIA FOR THREE MONTHS.

BUT HERE IS WHAT THE HEAD OF THE WHITE HELMETS HAS WRITTEN TODAY.

ASSAD'S INTERVENTION IS A CYNICAL MOVE THAT'S COME FAR TOO LATE.

THE U.N.'S INSISTENCE ON WAITING FOR THE SYRIA REGIME PERMISSION, THE REGIME THAT'S BOMBED, GASSED, STARVED, FORCIBLY DISPLACED AND IMPRISONED MILLIONS OF SYRIANS IS UNFORGIVABLE.

IS HE RIGHT?

>> I THINK HE'S RIGHT.

I DON'T THINK THAT DONOR STATES THAT ARE INCLUDED IN THAT, NOT THE UNITED STATES, THEY DON'T THINK THEY HAD TO WAIT FOR THE UNITED NATION'S PERMISSION.

THEY HAD CLEAR LEGAL JUSTIFICATION UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AND UNDER THE GENEVA FOURTH CONVENTION ABOUT THE TREATMENT OF CIVILIANS IN CONFLICT AREAS.

THEY HAD AMPLE JUSTIFICATION TO ADDITIONAL BORDER CROSSINGS.

I UNDERSTAND THE ONE APPROVED BY THE UNITED NATIONS, THERE WAS ROAD DAMAGE AND THAT SLOWED IT DOWN BUT OTHER BORDER CROSSINGS WERE ABSOLUTELY OPEN AND THEY PROBABLY COULD HAVE EVEN FLOWN IN SUPPLIES, AT LEAST BY HELICOPTER.

I DON'T BLAME THE WHITE HELMETS DIRECTOR AT ALL FOR BEING ANGRY.

>> THEY COULD HAVE AIR DROPPED.

WHAT IS IT WITH THE SECURITY COUNSEL?

WHY DID THEY WAIT?

WHY DIDN'T YOUR GOVERNMENT DO IT?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO SPEAK FOR ADMINISTRATION CHRISTIANE.

I THINK THE RUSSIANS CONSTANTLY MAKE AN ARGUMENT IN THE SECURITY COUNSEL ABOUT DEFENDING THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE SYRIAN STATE AND THE BORDERS.

BUT IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS ENTER NATIONAL AND HUMANITARIAN LAW GIVES AMPLE JUSTIFICATION LEGALLY UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW TO PUT ASIDE THE SOVEREIGNTY ISSUE DELIVERING LIFE SAVING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

>> SO WE'RE CLEAR, I'VE BEEN TOLD BY MANY OFFICIALS, THE SANCTIONS ON SYRIA DO NOT PLAY AT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO THIS KIND OF HMANITARIAN CRISIS AND THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS AROUND THAT.

CAN I ASK YOU IF YOU CAN COMMENT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER.

TURKEY, THERE HAS BEEN AS WE'VE SEEN SO MUCH COLLAPSE.

IN SYRIA SO MUCH WAS RUBBLED.

IT WAS AWFUL.

IN TURKEY, THAT WASN'T THE CASE AND THERE IS SO MUCH ANGER FROM PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THERE AS WELL ABOUT BUILDINGS THAT SIMPLY WEREN'T SAFE.

THIS IS WHAT WAS WRITTEN JUST RIGHT NOW IN FOREIGN POLICY BY THE AUTHOR OF ERDOGAN'S WAR STRONG MAN STRUGGLE AT HOME AND IN SYRIA.

POWERFUL EARTHQUAKES KILL PEOPLE BUT THEY ARE MORE DEADLY IN COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY WHERE BUILDING REGULATIONS AREN'T ENFORCED, UNQUALIFIED LOYALISTS FILL KEY POSITIONS, INDEPENDENT STATE INSTITUTIONS DO NOT EXIST AND CIVIL SOCIETY ORGANIZATIONS ARE WIPED OUT AND THE INTEREST OF A CORRUPT FEW ARE PRIORITIZED ABOVE ALL ELSE.

WE KNOW THE ERDOGAN GOVERNMENT CALLED FOR THE ARREST AND INVESTIGATION INTO CERTAIN NUMBERS OF PEOPLE BEING COMPLAINED AGAINST BUT TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, THAT CRITICISM?

>> WELL, I THINK THE ERDOGAN GOVERNMENT IN A SENSE MADE A SIGNIFICANT AND TURN OUT IMPORTANTLY CONCESSION INTO A LOT OF CONTRACTORS OPERATING IN THAT PART OF SYRIA PUTTING UP HIGH RISE APARTMENT BUILDINGS.

WHEN I VISITED CITIES THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL BUT APPARENTLY, THEY DID NOT MEET TURKISH GOVERNMENT CODES AND THE CONTRACTORS KNOWINGLY BUILT THEM THAT WAY AND GOT A SORT OF AMNESTY.

>> OH, WOW.

>> FROM THE ERDOGAN GOVERNMENT IN RETURN FOR RELATIVELY SMALL PAYMENTS.

WHAT WAS IN IT FOR THE ERDOGAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME, WE'RE TALKING FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT YEARS AGO, TWO THINGS.

NUMBER ONE SMALL AMOUNTS OF MONEY BUT SECOND, ECONOMIC GROWTH.

AND THAT PART OF TURKEY HAS NOT BEEN PARTICULARLY PRIVILEGED ECONOMIC PART OF TURKEY.

A LOT OF CITIES STRUGGLE ECONOMICALLY.

THE CONSTRUCTION SECTOR WAS BOOMING AND OF COURSE, THAT BENEFITTED PRESIDENT ERDOGAN'S POLITICAL FORTUNES.

NOW, THAT BILL MAY BECOMING DUE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU TO PUT ON YOUR HAT.

ERDOGAN IN POWER FOR 20 YEARS IS RUNNING AGAIN IN THE ELECTIONS IN MAY AND WE REMEMBER THAT HE CAME TO POWER AFTER A TRAGIC EARTHQUAKE IN WHICH HE PROMISED TO FIX THINGS.

SO YOU SAY THE BILL MAY BE -- >> THAT'S EXACTLY -- >> THE BILL MAY BECOMING DUE.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANYTHING THAT CAN DISLODGE HIM GIVEN THE -- AS THIS AUTHOR POINTED OUT, THE COMPLETE LACK OF CIVIL SOCIETY INDEPENDENT PRESS, OR THE, YOU NEXT HEAVY SANCTIONS AGAINST THEM?

>> IN ANY COMPETITION LIKE THIS AND DEMOCRATIC ELEMENTS IN TOUR KIRK POLITICAL SOCIETY MY BIG QUESTION AS I LOOK AT IT, WILL A COALITION OF TURKISH OPPOSITION PARTIES AND TO SUPPORT ONE SINGLE CANDIDATE WILL THEY BE ABLE TO AGREE ON THE CANDIDATE AND WILL THE CANDIDATE RUN AN EFFECTIVE CAMPAIGN.

THOSE ARE TWO BIG IFS.

THE FUTURE OF THE TURKISH ELECTION WILL DEPEND.

>> A REMARKABLE PERIOD OF TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH AMBASSADOR FORD FOR JOINING US.

NOW WE TURN TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

OVER THE PAST TWO WEEKS CHAOTIC SCENES OF RUSSIAN TANKS EXPLODING WERE RECORDED BY UKRAINIAN MILITARY DRONES IN DONETSK.

SOME RUSSIAN MILITARY BLOGGERS CALL IT A FIASCO AND GEARS UP FOR A SPRING OFFENSIVE.

OUR NEXT GUEST INVESTOR BILL BROADER JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE NATO ALLY SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA AND PACE OF THE ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE AT THIS CRITICAL JUNCTION JUNK TOOUR.

>> WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU WERE ONCE THE LARGEST FOREIGN INVESTOR IN RUSSIA AND FOR THE PAST TWO DECADES, YOU'VE BEEN ONE OF THE STRONGEST ENEMIES I WOULD SAY OF VLADIMIR PUTIN ESPECIALLY TRYING TO PUT SANCTIONS ON HIM FOR THE THINGS HE'S DONE AND NOW UKRAINE.

TELL ME IN THE PAST YEAR SINCE THIS UKRAINE WAR HAS HAPPENED WHAT YOU LEARNED.

>> WELL, WE WERE LIVING IN A WORLD BEFORE WHERE EVERYBODY FOR 20 YEARS, EVERYBODY WAS TRYING TO APPEASE PUTIN.

HE WOULD DO THE MOST TERRIBLE THINGS.

HE INVADED GEORGIA AND CARPET BOMBED SYRIA AND TOOK CRIMEA AND NOBODY WANTEDED TO DO ANYTHING.

SOMEHOW THINKING IF THEY JUST KEPT THEIR HANDS AWAY FROM HIM HE WOULD SOMEHOW BEHAVE HIMSELF AND WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IS THAT HE'S A MURDEROUS, MASS MURDERER WHO INVADED A FOREIGN COUNTRY, ESCALATED THE WAR AND KILLED TENS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND WE'RE IN A WORLD WHERE WE HAVE TO USE EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT TO SHUT THIS GUY DOWN.

>> ARE YOU TALKING MORE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS OR MILITARY?

>> I DON'T THINK ANY OF US WANT TO SEND OUR OWN TROOPS INTO RUSSIA BUT I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE BEHAVIOR OF THE UNITED STATES AND E.U.

AND VARIOUS OTHER COUNTRIES MILITARY, WE'VE GIVEN THE UKRAINIANS ENOUGH NOT TO LOSE THE WAR BUT IT'S DRIP FEEDING AS WE GIVE THEM THIS STUFF AND WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH YET TO WIN THE WAR.

ZELENSKYY IS GOING AROUND BEGGING FOR STRONGER WEAPONS TO REPEL AND GET THE RUSSIANS OUT OF UKRAINE AND IT'S A THOUGHT OUT STRATEGY NOT TO GIVE THE UKRAINIANS WHAT THEY NEED.

I HEARD THIS STATED EXPLICITLY FROM THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

EVERYBODY IS WORRIED NOW ABOUT PROVOKING PUTIN ESCALATING WHEN PUTIN IS DOING ALL THE ESCALATING.

>> WAIT, YOU SAY YOU TALKED TO U.S. AND OTHER MILITARY OFFICIALS AND PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND THEY SAY WE CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE THE ESCALATION COULD GET TOO BAD.

IS THERE TRUTH ON THAT?

DO WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS ESCALATING OUT OF CONTROL?

>> IT ESCALATED OUT OF CONTROL ON FEBRUARY 24th.

VLADIMIR PUTIN LAUNCHED AN INVASION OF A PEACEFUL NEIGHBOR.

THAT WAS THE ESCALATION.

HE'S BOMBING THEM EVERY DAY.

HE'S BOMBING CIVILIANS.

HE'S TRYING TO TAKE OUT ELECTRICITY INFRASTRUCTURE AND KILLING PEOPLE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

THAT'S THE ESCALATION.

ALL WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS STOP THIS AND THE ONLY WAY TO STOP IT IS BY DEFEATING HIM AND IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM A U.S. STANDPOINT, HERE YOU'VE GOT A HOSTILE INTERNATIONAL POWER THAT IS -- DOESN'T HAVE OUR BEST INTEREST AT HEART.

WE DON'T HAVE TO LOSE A SINGLE AMERICAN LIFE BY SUPPORTING UKRAINIANS.

THEY'RE READY TO FIGHT FOR ALL OF OUR FREEDOM.

GIVE THEM EVERYTHING THEY ASK FOR.

>> FOR THE PAST, YOU'VE BEEN GOING AROUND THE WORLD IN EUROPE TALKING ABOUT MORE AND MORE SANCTIONS.

TELL ME WHAT SANCTIONS HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE SO FAR?

>> WELL, I THINK ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TO A GREATER OR LESSER EXTENT.

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SANCTIONS IN TWO WAYS.

THEY CAN BE A DETERRENT, WHICH THEY HAVEN'T BEEN BECAUSE WE DIDN'T USE THEM PROPERLY BEFORE HAND OR A PUNISHMENT.

HERE THEY ARE A PUNISHMENT.

SO THERE IS A DIFFERENT SORT OF SECTIONS OF SANCTIONS.

WE'VE FROZEN $350 BILLION OF RUSSIAN CENTRAL BANK RESERVES.

THAT'S LIKE THEIR WAR CHESS.

THAT MONEY IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO THEM.

WE SANCTIONED ABOUT 40 RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS AND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF OLIGARCH MONEY FROZEN AROUND THE WORLD WHICH IN MY OPINION, THAT'S SORT OF ANOTHER WAR CHEST OF PUTIN'S.

HE CAN DRAW ON THAT MONEY.

WE'VE ALSO CUT RUSSIA'S BANKS, MANY OF THEM, MOST OF THEM OFF THE SWIFT INTERNATIONAL BANKING SYSTEM.

WE SANCTIONED OIL COMPANIES AND MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPORT TECHNOLOGY AND THIS IS -- I THINK ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE GRINDING RUSSIA DOWN.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS OVERNIGHT BUT GRINDING RUSSIA DOWN.

>> WHEN DO YOU THINK THAT WILL GRIND THEM DOWN SO THEY MIGHT STOP?

>> I'M NOT SURE IT WILL GRIND THEM DOWN TO THEM STOPPING FOR ONE SIMPLE REASON.

THEY CONTINUE TO SELL OIL AND GAS IN LARGE QUANTITIES TO THE WEST.

THE NUMBERS AFTER THE WAR WERE LIKE A BILLION DOLLARS A DAY OF WESTERN MONEY WAS GOING INTO RUSSIA AND A BILLION DOLLARS A DAY WAS BEING SPENT NOT TO KILL UKRAINIANS AND THE NUMBERS MIGHT NOT BE A BILLION DOLLARS A DAY ANYMORE.

MAYBE IT'S $700 MILLION A DAY OR $500 MILLION A DAY BUT STILL A LOT OF MONEY GOING INTO RUSSIA, WHICH THEY CAN USE FOR THEIR WAR EFFORT AND UNTIL WE STOP BUYING THEIR OIL AND FINDING A WAY TO GET OTHER PEOPLE TO STOP BUYING THEIR OIL, THEY CONTINUE TO HAVE MONEY TO DO THIS.

>> HOW CAN WE GET PEOPLE TO STOP BUYING OIL?

WHAT SHOULD WE DO ON OIL?

>> THERE IS A BIG PROPORTION OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, A VERY BIG PROPORTION, THE G 7, THE EUROPEAN UNION, WHO HAVE ALL SAID WE WANT TO SANCTION RUSSIA AND PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THIS AND A MUCH SMALLER SECTION OF THE WORLD FROM AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT THAT SAYS WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO DO BUSINESS WITH RUSSIA.

COUNTRIES LIKE SOUTH AFRICA AND INDONESIA AND BRAZIL AND INDIA.

WE COULD EASILY IF WE WANT TO, WE CAN SAY IF YOU WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH US, YOU CAN'T DO BUSINESS WITH RUSSIA.

>> WAIT A MINUTE.

IF WE HAD TO DO THAT, WE'D BE SAYING YOU CAN'T DO BUSINESS WITH CHINA.

YOU CAN'T DO BUSINESS WITH INDIA OR SOUTH AFRICA.

ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES HAVE NOT YET JOINED THE SANCTIONS REGIME.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

YOU GO TO SOUTH AFRICA FOR EXAMPLE AND SAY -- YOU WANT 70% OF THE WORLD OR 1% OF THE WORLD?

IF YOU DO BUSINESS WITH 1% OF THE WORLD, WE'LL CUT YOU OFF FROM 70% OF THE WORLD.

WE COULD DO THAT.

IF WE DID THAT, THEY COULD HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE NOT FORCING A CHOICE.

WE COULD ISOLATE RUSSIA MUCH FURTHER THAN WE'RE DOING IF WE SAID TO EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, IT'S EITHER US OR THEM.

EVERYBODY VOTES WITH THEIR FEET AND MONEY.

WE HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOUGH IN THAT WAY.

THAT'S ONE THING WE COULD DO.

THERE IS ONE THING I'M GOING AROUND THE WORLD TALKING ABOUT WHICH I THINK WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AFTER THE WAR STARTED, WE FROZE $350 BILLION OF CENTRAL BANK RESERVES.

AND THE WORLD HAS DONE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DAMAGE TO UKRAINE.

RUSSIA DID THE DAMAGE.

WE HAVE CUSTODY OF THE MONEY.

INSTEAD OF HAVING IT FROZEN, THE MONEY SHOULD BE CONFISCATED AND HANDED TO UKRAINIANS FOR DEFENSE AND RECONSTRUCTION.

PUTIN BROKE IT.

HE SHOULD FIX IT.

THAT'S PROBABLY THE SINGLE BIGGEST THING WE COULD DO IN THE VERY SHORT TERM TO DO IT.

>> EXPLAIN TO ME THE CONFISCATING OF THE RESERVES.

>> THOSE RESERVES ARE PROTECTED BY SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY.

SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY MEANS ANYTHING THAT BELONGS TO A COUNTRY, A STATE CAN'T BE TAKEN AWAY AND CAN'T MOVE INTO THE EMBASSY BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO THAT COUNTRY.

REASONABLE AND THAT'S HOW INTERNATIONAL LAW WORKED FOR THE LAST MANY, MANY YEARS.

PUTIN HAS REDEFINED INTERNATIONAL CRIME AND HE HAS REDRAWN THE BORDERS OF EUROPE AND KILLED, BEEN A MASS MURDERER.

KILLED UNIMAGINABLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND SO WE'RE SITTING THERE IN THIS SITUATION WHERE HE'S REDEFINING INTERNATIONAL CRIME AND WE'RE SITTING THERE SAYING YOUR MONEY IS PROTECTED?

WE NEED TO REDEFINE INTERNATIONAL LAW TO ELEVATE IT TO THE LEVEL OF HIS -- THE WAY HE'S BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL.

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN SPECIFICALLY?

THAT MEANS THAT LAWS HAVE TO BE PASSED IN A NUMBER OF MAJOR DEVELOPED COUNTRIES WHICH SAYS THAT SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY ALSO APPLIES IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE EXCEPT IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE WHEN A COUNTRY HAS INVADED A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY AND COMMITTED AN ACT OF AGGRESSION, WHICH IS HOW THIS WAR IS BEING DEFINED UNDER LEGAL TERMS.

THAT'S ONE NARROW CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY NO LONGER APPLIES.

IF WE DID THAT, IF THE UNITED STATES AND THE EUROPEAN UNION AND GREAT BRITAIN AND CANADA AND JAPAN REWROTE THEIR LAWS TO SAY THAT SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY APPLIES IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES OTHER THAN THOSE, THEN WE COULD THEN CONFISCATE THEIR MONEY.

WE WOULDN'T BE DOING IT ILLEGALLY BUT BASED ON A LAW REWRITTEN TO ADAPT ITSELF TO THE CURRENT SITUATION.

>> IF YOU WANTED TO CONFISCATE FOREIGN RESERVES AND TALKED ABOUT LAWS BEING PASSED IN THE WEST.

WOULD CHINA AND INDIA HAVE TO GO ALONG?

>> WELL, THE THING IS THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE RESERVE CURRENCIES REVISE THEIR LAWS.

SO IN OTHER WORDS, WE DON'T -- YOU KNOW, IF CHINA -- WE DON'T KEEP OUR MONEY IN CHINA.

SO IT'S NOT A PRECIP THING.

THERE IS ONE OTHER GREAT BENEFIT TO DOING THIS.

IF WE CONFISCATE RUSSIA'S MONEY FOR INVAING A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY, WHO ELSE HAS A BUNCH OF MONEY IN THE WEST THAT'S EYEING AND POTENTIALLY GOING TO INVADE A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY?

THAT'S CHINA.

SOME PEOPLE ARGUE THIS IDEA IS A DANGEROUS IDEA BECAUSE CHINA WILL ABANDON ALL COUNTRIES AND KEEP THEIR MONEY AT HOME.

THAT JUST -- IF IT JUST THE U.S.

DOING THIS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN WITH THE DOLLAR BUT IF EVERYBODY DOES IT TOGETHER WITH A RESERVE CURRENCY, THEN CHINA WILL HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH IT.

THEY HAVE TO BE SCARED OF IT.

>> WHAT ABOUT IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

BOTH ISRAEL AND THE SAUDI DON'T SEEM TO BE ON BOARD.

WHAT IS A REASON FOR THAT AND WHAT CAN BE DONE?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S REALLY SHAMEFUL THAT THE ISRAELIS WHO -- ISRAEL IS A COUNTRY FORMED AS A REACTION TO A GENOCIDE ARE NOW SEEING A GENOCIDE TAKING PLACE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY AND NOT HELPING OUT THAT COUNTRY.

I FIND THAT UNPLEASANT AND DISTURBING.

>> WHY IS THAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE IN SYRIA AND SYRIA POSES A THREAT TO ISRAEL AND THEREFORE THEY'VE GOT TO PLAY DIFFERENT SIDES.

I THINK THEY COULD EASILY FOR EXAMPLE THE ISRAELIS HAVE AN IRON DOME DEFENSE SITUATION WHICH PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM BOMBING THEM.

THEY SHOULD PROVIDE THAT IRON DOME DEFENSE MECHANISM TO UKRAINE SO THAT THEY'RE NOT -- THE UKRAINIAN INFRASTRUCTURE ISN'T DESTROYED.

THEY COULD HELP WITH DEFENSIVE WEAPONS ON THE SAUDI ARABIA SIDE, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN A GOOD ALLY TO THE UNITED STATES.

HISTORICALLY, THE UNITED STATES HAD A DEAL WHICH IS THAT THE SAUDI KEEP OIL PRICES STABLE TO KEEP THE ECONOMY STABLE AND IN RETURN THE UNITED STATES PROVIDES A SORT OF MILITARY BLANKET OVER SAUDI ARABIA SO THEY'RE PROTECTED AND THE MILITARY BLANKET CONTINUES TO EXIST BUT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PLAYING BALL WHEN IT COMES TO OIL WHEN THE OIL PRICES WENT UP BECAUSE OF PUTIN, WHAT DO THEY DO?

CUT PRODUCTION MORE.

SAUDIS ISN'T PLAYING FAIR AND THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES ARE HOSTING SCORES OF RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS, NUMEROUS RUSSIAN OLIGARCH YACHTS ARE PARKED IN DUBAI.

THIS IS ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE AN ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES AND NOT PLAYING BALL.

THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE TO APPLY TO ALLIES IF WE CHOSE TO DO IT AND THE UNITED STATES IS A VERY POWERFUL COUNTRY AND I BELIEVE SHOULD IN ALL THREE CASES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU PUSH FOR IS GOING AFTER PUTIN'S WEALTH PERSONALLY.

TELL ME HOW DID HE GET ALL THAT MONEY AND WHERE IS IT AND WHAT CAN WE DO?

>> PUTIN DOESN'T KEEP ANY MONEY IN HIS NAME.

WHOEVER HAD THE BANK DOCUMENTS TO SHOW IT COULD BLACKMAIL HIM.

PUTIN HAS TO RELY ON PEOPLE HE TRUSTS.

I CALL THEM OLIGARCH TRUSTEES.

WHEN YOU SEE AN OLIGARCH WHO IS SUPPOSED WORTH 15 TO $20 BILLION ON PAPER, YOU CAN BE WELL SURE THAT HALF THAT MONEY BELONGS TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AND SO WHEN WE SANCTIONED THE O OLIGARCHS AND IDENTIFY THE BIGGEST AND RICHEST IN RUSSIA AND FREEZE THEIR MONEY, WE'RE NOT JUST FREEZING THEIR MONEY, WE'RE FREEZING VLADIMIR PUTIN'S MONEY.

SO ONE OF THE REASONS I'M SO FORCEFUL ON THE ISSUE OF SANCTIONING RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS IS BECAUSE WE'E SANCTIONING VLADIMIR PUTIN PERSONALLY.

WE'VE DONE A GOOD JOB.

HE SAYS THIS DOESN'T MATTER BUT HE'S FUMING WHEN THESE OLIGARCHS FIND THEIR ASSETS FROZEN AT DIFFERENT BANKS AROUND THE WORLD.

>> YOU SAY THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG WAR THE WAY IT'S GOING NOW.

ENVISION FOR ME WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE FIVE YEARS FROM NOW IF THIS THING IS STILL GOING ON THE WAY IT IS.

>> WELL, THIS IS PUTIN'S -- PUTIN -- HIS VISION IN MY MIND IS HE KNOWS HE CAN'T WIN THE WAR.

BUT HE ALSO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE LIVES LOST FROM HIS SIDE.

HE DOESN'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF HIS MILITARY EQUIPMENT.

IN HIS MIND WHAT HE'S THINKING IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOSE PATIENCE BEFORE HE LOSES PATIENCE.

HE'S THINKING IN THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES WHERE WE HAVE ELECTIONS ALL THE TIME WHERE WE GROW TIRED AND WHERE WE HAVE A LIMITED BAND WIDTH THAT EVENTUALLY WE'LL STOP SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND THAT'S HIS ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS IS TO OUT LAST US AND SO -- >> WAIT, WAIT, MIGHT HE BE RIGHT?

>> I THINK THAT'S MY BIGGEST FEAR.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE TRAJECTORY OF THE UKRAINIANS NOW, THEY'RE CAUSING NO END OF HARDSHIP FOR PUTIN AND HIS MILITARY.

AND ON THE CURRENT TRAJECTORY, THE UKRAINIANS PROBABLY WOULD EVENTUALLY SUCCEED OVER SOME LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

AND SO BUT WE'VE HEARD MURMURS IN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE FROM FAR RIGHT, FROM ALL SORTS OF STRANGE CHARACTERS SAYING NO MORE MONEY FOR UKRAINE, NO MORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

IF THOSE MURMURS AT THE MOMENT ARE AT THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT BECOME BIGGER SECTIONS, PUTIN MAY VERY WELL BE RIGHT.

THAT'S THE FEAR I HAVE AND THE REASON WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT WE ACTUALLY FINALLY PONY UP TO HELP THEM WIN IN A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THERE COULD BE NEGOTIATIONS OR IS THAT SOMETHING YOU JUST CAN'T ENVISION?

>> I'VE BEEN IN A BATTLE WITH PUTIN FOR OVER A YEAR BECAUSE OF THE MURDER OF MY LAWYER AND THERE IS INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS NAMED AFTER HIM APPLIED TO RUSSIA, WHICH HAS LED TO ALL SORTS OF RETALIATION BY THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT.

AND EVERY TIME THE RUSSIANS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND NEGOTIATE AND BACK DOWN AND BE REASONABLE, INSTEAD OF DOING THE RIGHT THING, THEY DOUBLED DOWN, TRIPLED DOWN AND ESCALATED.

I NEVER SEEN A MOMENT WHERE PUTIN SHOWS A SIGN OF COMPROMISE, NEGOTIATION OR REASONABLENESS IN ANYTHING I'VE DEALT WITH OR ANYTHING ELSE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THAT.

HERE WE ARE WITH THIS WAR IN UKRAINE AND HE CAN'T AFFORD TO SHOW ONE TINY SIGN OF NEGOTIATION OF COMPROMISE AND SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, AND WE'VE SEEN IT PLAY OUT.

HE DOESN'T -- HE SAYS I'M READY FOR A PEACE NEGOTIATION AND THAT NEGOTIATION THE PRECONDITIONS ARE UKRAINE GIVES UP TERRITORY AND THAT'S IT AND OF COURSE, THE UKRAINIANS AREN'T GOING TO GIVE UP TERRITORY.

HE INVADED AND SHOULD BE REWARRED.

NO WAY.

>> BILL, AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, ON THIS VALENTINE'S DAY LOVE IS IN THE AIR ALL OVER THE WORLD, FLOWERS, BALLOONS AND WEDDINGS FROM THAILAND TO PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES AND AFGHANISTAN.

A REMINDER AMID WAR AND NATURAL DISASTER, LOVE DOES UNITE US ALL.

A POWERFUL AND CONSTANT FORCE ON OUR PLANET.

AND SO WE LEAVE YOU WITH IMAGES OF VALENTINE'S DAY FROM AROUND THE GLOBE.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.