>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT WITH GOOD LEADERSHIP, YES, ABSOLUTELY, THINGS CAN CHANGE.

>> NIGERIAN YOUTH REGISTERING IN DROVES FOR UPCOMING ELECTIONS.

COULD THIS BE THE CHANGE THEY NEED?

AN INSIDE LOOK WITH NOVELIST AND FREE SPEECH CRUSADER CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE.

THEN -- >> I CONSIDER THE HAQQANI NETWORK, MEANING HEADQUARTERED WITH THE HA CANNES NI FAMILY, TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE JIHADIST GROUP IN THE WORLD.

>> FROM FAVORED GUEST OF THE MUJAHADIN TO PRISONER OF THE TALIBAN, AMERICAN JOURNALIST JERE VAN DYK TRACES THE ROOTS OF AFGHANISTAN'S EXTREMIST LEADERS.

AND WEAVING THE FABRIC OF AMERICA.

A DOCUMENTARY FILM LOOKS AT IMMIGRANTS, REFUGEES AND LOCALS WHO MAKE THE COUNTRY'S FLAGS.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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CANDACE KING WEIR.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AT A TIME WHEN GLOBAL DEMOCRACY IS UNDER PRESSURE THIS MONTH'S ELECTIONS IN NIGERIA COULD PROVE TO BE CRITICAL.

AFRICA AND ITS LARGEST ECONOMY ARE AT A TURNING POINT.

THE NIGERIAN POPULATION IS GROWING AND IT'S GROWING YOUNGER.

SO THE RESULTS THERE COULD HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT GLOBALLY.

TWO CANDIDATES, BOLA TINUBU AND ATIKU ABUBAKAR HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE LEADING PART IDEAS WITH ALL THE ADVANTAGES THAT OFFERS.

BUT WITH INFLATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT SURGING AND POVERTY WIDESPREAD, A THIRD CANDIDATE, THE LABOR PARTY'S PETER BE OBI, HOPES TO HARNESS VOTERS' FRUSTRATION AND GALVANIZE THAT YOUTH VOTE TO TAKE DOWN THE RULING PARTIES.

IN NIGERIA AS IN MANY NATIONS FAKE NEWS, CONSPIRACIES AND ATTACKS ON DEMOCRACY ARE RIFE.

SO HE FREE SPEECH IS CRITICAL.

AND FEW PEOPLE DO MORE TO PROTECT THAT AROUND THE WORLD THAN CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE, THE BRILLIANT NIGERIAN STORYTELLER AND THOUGHT LEADER.

I SPOKE TO HER ABOUT THE PROSPECT OF CHANGE IN HER HOME COUNTRY AND ABOUT HAVING THE COURAGE TO SPEAK UP AGAINST CENSORSHIP ON ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

>> CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT VERY IMPORTANT ELECTIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE TAKING PLACE IN YOUR COUNTRY TOWARD THE END OF THIS MONTH?

NIGERIA HAS SUCH POTENTIAL.

HUMAN RESOURCES, MINERAL RESOURCES.

AND YET THERE'S ALWAYS A WORRY ABOUT ELECTORAL INTEGRITY, CORRUPTION, FAKE NEWS, ALL OF THAT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS AT STAKE IN THESE ELECTIONS?

>> I THINK I SHOULD PROBABLY START BY SAYING THAT I'M FILLED WITH A KIND OF CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ELECTION.

AND I THINK SOMETHING'S VERY DIFFERENT.

AND IT'S BECAUSE OF ONE PARTICULAR CANDIDATE, PETER OBI, WHO HAS KIND OF GIVEN RISE TO THIS ORGANIC EXCITING MOVEMENT OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO NOW FEEL THAT THERE IS HOPE.

SO APPARENTLY LOTS AND LOTS OF YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE REGISTERED TO VOTE BECAUSE OF HIM.

THERE ARE LARGE CROWDS EVERYWHERE HE GOES.

AND I THINK WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT PEOPLE HAVE SEEN AN EXAMPLE OF THE IDEA THAT LEADERSHIP CAN BE SORT OF SERVICE.

YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF LEADERSHIP AS SERVICE.

I THINK WE FOR SO LONG IN NIGERIA FELT THAT WE HAD LEADERS WHO KIND OF THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING US A FAVOR AND SUDDENLY HERE'S THIS MAN WHO'S TALKING TO EVERYBODY AND GOING EVERYWHERE AND LISTENING TO EVERYONE AND SAYING HOLD ME ACCOUNTABLE.

SO I THINK PEOPLE HAVE -- I THINK IT HAS CHANGED THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IN NIGERIA.

AND I SAY THIS, AND I THINK WHETHER OR NOT HE WINS SOMETHING HAS CHANGED IN THE WAY THAT WE THINK OF ELECTIONS IN NIGERIA.

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SO DETERMINED THAT THIS TIME, YOU KNOW, THAT ELECTIONS HAVE TO BE FAIR BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE INVESTED IN A WAY THAT I PERSONALLY FIND VERY EXCITING BUT ALSO I THINK IS SIGNIFICANT NOT JUST FOR NIGERIA BUT ALSO FOR THE REST OF AFRICA BECAUSE DESPITE ALL OF OUR PROGRAMS WE ARE, YOU KNOW -- WE'RE A BIG PLAYER ON THE CONTINENT.

>> THE HUGEST PLAYER IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HE HAS MADE SUCH A DIFFERENCE, PETER OBI?

AND HE IS MENTIONED AS THE FRONT-RUNNER AND THE MOST SORT OF EXCITING.

WE HAVE SEEN THE 2019 ELECTION NUMBERS SHOWED A RECORD LOW TURNOUT.

AND YET AS YOU MENTION AND AS THE FIGURES POINT OUT, A HUGE NUMBER OF YOUNG NIGERIANS ESPECIALLY HAVE REGISTERED TO VOTE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS CHANGED IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES?

OR IS IT JUST THE PERSONALITY?

>> I THINK IT'S LARGELY THE PERSONALITY.

BUT I THINK THERE IS ALSO CONTEXT.

THINGS ARE SO DIFFICULT IN NIGERIA TODAY.

LIFE IS DIFFICULT, AND IT CUTS ACROSS CLASS I THINK.

FOR BOTH HIGH AND LOW.

THERE'S JUST SO MUCH TO BE UNHAPPY ABOUT.

THERE'S SO MUCH DISCONTENT.

AND THEN INTO THAT COMES THIS FIGURE WHO IS UNUSUAL.

YOU KNOW, WHO SEEMS TO REALLY BE CONNECTED TO ORDINARY PEOPLE AND WHO CUTS ACROSS, WHICH IS I THINK REALLY IMPORTANT, CUTS ACROSS ETHNICITY.

THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED REALLY SINCE NIGERIA BECAME INDEPENDENT IN 1960.

WE'VE JUST NEVER HAD A POLITICAL CANDIDATE WHO'S HAD THIS KIND OF VISION.

>> CHIMAMANDA, CAN I JUST ASK YOU WHETHER SOME OF THESE ISSUES ARE TROUBLING TO YOU?

OBVIOUSLY, I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PUBLICLY ENDORSED PETER OBI.

I KNOW THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT OBASANJO HAS AS WELL.

AND AS YOU SAY THERE'S A RECORD TURNOUT AND A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT ABOUT HIM.

BUT IT SEEMS THAT THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS, AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHETHER YOU THINK HE CAN ANSWER THEM PROPERLY.

PLAGUED WITH ALLEGATIONS OF FAILING TO PUBLICLY DECLARE ASSETS AND OFFSHORE ACCOUNTS.

ALSO ACCUSED OF INVESTING STATE FUNDS INTO A COMPANY HE HAD DEALINGS WITH.

CAN HE GET OVER THAT?

HAS HE ANSWERED THOSE QUESTIONS SATISFACTORILY?

>> SO TWO THINGS.

I WANT TO START BY SAYING THAT IT'S -- THAT FOR NIGERIA IN WHICH OUR POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IS ONE IN WHICH THERE'S JUST A KIND OF -- THERE'S NO SENSE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, THESE WHEN YOU PUT THEM IN CONTEXT, NO, THEY DON'T BOTHER ME VERY MUCH.

THE FIRST PART IS HE WAS GOVERNOR OF MY STATE SOME YEARS AGO AND THE WAY HE WAS GOVERNOR, THE WAY HE WAS SORT OF TRANSPARENT -- I THINK THE IDEA IS WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR PERFECTION.

WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR PERFECT HUMAN BEINGS.

WE'RE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO WE THINK HAVE THE CHARACTER, HAVE THE POSSIBILITY OF DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

I HAVEN'T QUITE BEEN CONVINCED OF THAT ALLEGATION THAT HE WAS SORT OF -- THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HIDING MONEY, SOMETHING ABOUT THE PANAMA PAPERS OR SOMETHING.

>> I JUST WANT TO -- I WANT TO JUMP IN BECAUSE IT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY IN THE TOTALITY THESE DON'T BOTHER ME AND WE HAVE TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT.

SO LET ME PUT SOMETHING IN CONTEXT.

AND BY THE WAY, I'M NOT COMPARING PETER OBI TO THESE FIGURES.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY MASSIVE CORRUPTION IN YOUR COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY OVER SUCH HUGE MONEYMAKERS AS THE OIL INDUSTRY.

IN 2013 I SPOKE TO YOUR THEN FINANCE MINISTER NGOZI OKANJO OWELA, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE CORRUPTION THAT SHE -- SHE WAS IN GOVERNMENT THEN.

AROUND THE OIL FUNDS.

SO LET ME PLAY YOU WHAT SHE TOLD ME BACK THEN.

>> LET ME MENTION TWO THINGS QUICKLY.

THE FIRST ONE IS THE OIL THEFT THAT IS 150,000 BARRELS A DAY.

>> WHICH IS HUGE.

>> WHICH IS HUGE.

AND I ADMIT THAT.

WE CAN'T AFFORD -- ACTUALLY, MY THESIS ON CORRUPTION IS WE ARE STILL A POOR COUNTRY.

WE CANNOT AFFORD ANY LEAKAGE.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO FIGHT.

WE NEED EVERY NAIRA AND KOBOWE TO RUN THAT COUNTRY.

SO THAT LEAKAGE HAS TO BE FOUGHT.

>> SO SHE WAS VERY CLEAR ON THAT.

OF COURSE TEN YEARS ON CORRUPTION IS STILL HUGE.

SO THE QUESTION IS CAN SOMEBODY LIKE PETER OBI OR ANYBODY WHO TRIES TO LEAD YOUR COUNTRY OUT OF THAT SCALE OF CORRUPTION, CAN THEY BE SUCCESSFUL?

>> OF COURSE, YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT PETER OBI IS NOT IN ANY WAY CONNECTED TO THE OIL THEFT.

>> I KNOW THAT.

I SAID THAT.

I'M JUST PUTTING IT IN CONTEXT BECAUSE OF THE HUGE -- THE HUGE PROBLEMS THAT YOUR COUNTRY FACES.

AND I MIGHT AS WELL ADD SOME OF THESE.

LOOK.

YOU'VE GOT INFLATION AT 21.5%.

I KNOW A LOT OF OUR COUNTRIES HAVE THE SAME IN THE GLOBAL NORTH.

YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, THOUGH, STANDS AT 42.5% FOR YOUNG ADULTS.

40% OF THE POPULATION LIVES UNDER THE POVERTY LINE.

THAT'S DAUNTING FOR ANY PRESIDENT.

>> IT IS.

BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S THE REASON THERE'S THIS SENSE OF CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM ABOUT HIM.

AND I SHOULD ALSO SAY THAT HE'S ACTUALLY THE ONLY CANDIDATE WHO HAS SHOWN SOME LEVEL OF TRANSPARENCY IN TALKING ABOUT HOW HE MADE HIS MONEY, IN TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE OWNS.

AND EVEN TALKING VERY SORT OF BLUNTLY ABOUT THE OIL THEFT.

AND THAT'S UNUSUAL.

SO I DO BELIEVE THAT WITH GOOD LEADERSHIP, YES HE, ABSOLUTELY, THINGS CAN CHANGE.

>> THE EPIDEMIC OF SELF-CENSORSHIP, THIS IS BROADER THAN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN POLITICS, IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE BEEN SPEAKING -- YOU USE THAT TERM, THE EPIDEMIC OF SELF-CENSORSHIP.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

GIVE ME THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WORRIES YOU THERE.

>> I THINK IN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS EXPRESSION FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WHICH EVEN THAT HAS BECOME QUITE POLITICIZED IN THE WORLD TODAY, WHERE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT -- THERE'S A VERY CRUDE DIVIDE BETWEEN SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT AND, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF YOUR WORDS.

BUT I THINK THAT IN THAT DEBATE SOMETHING HAS BEEN LOST, WHICH IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH YOUR GOVERNMENT OR RECOGNIZED SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS CAN SILENCE US.

WHAT'S EVEN MORE IMPORTANT IS THE WAY THAT IF WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT IS SO -- THAT BELIEVES IN A KIND OF PURITANISM WE START TO CENSOR OURSELVES.

I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THAT PEOPLE ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT SAYING THE WRONG THING THAT NOBODY WANTS TO SAY ANYTHING.

PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS, AND SO THEY DON'T ASK QUESTIONS.

AND THE REASON IT WORRIES ME IN PARTICULAR IS BECAUSE I THINK LITERATURE IS IN DANGER.

AND OBVIOUSLY I'M A WRITER.

AND AS A READER.

LITERATURE HAS BEEN THE LOVE OF MY LIFE.

IF WE CONTINUE AS WE'RE GOING THEN THE LITERATURE WE PRODUCE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION WILL BE FALSE BECAUSE WE HAVE WRITERS AND ARTISTS WHO ARE NOW PRODUCING IN A STATE OF SELF-CENSORSHIP.

AND I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA HAS PLAYED A MAJOR ROLE IN THIS.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE NOW CREATING THINKING ABOUT WHO'S GOING TO ATTACK THEM ONLINE.

I THINK ALSO THAT -- I THINK RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD WE DON'T REALLY -- THERE'S A SENSE IN WHICH GOOD FAITH AND THE ASSUMPTION OF GOOD FAITH IS DEAD.

SO PEOPLE WILL GENERALLY HAVE THE MOST UNCHARITABLE INTERPRETATION OF WHAT ANYBODY SAYS.

AND SO WHAT THAT DOES IS SOMETIMES WITHOUT OUR KNOWING IT WE START TO SILENCE OURSELVES.

I THINK IT'S HUMAN NATURE TO WANT TO PRESERVE OURSELVES.

SELF-PRESERVATION IS VERY HUMAN.

AND SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THEN THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SORT OF ARTISTIC CREATORS START TO HOLD BACK, START TO CENSOR THEMSELVES.

AND I THINK IT'S BAD FOR HUMAN CULTURE, FOR OUR SOCIETIES.

IT MEANS THAT WE CANNOT GROW AND LEARN BECAUSE IF YOU CAN'T HAVE DEBATE HOW DO YOU LEARN?

HOW DO YOU GROW?

>> HAS IT TEMPERED WHAT YOU'RE >> I'D LIKE TO SAY IT HASN'T BECAUSE I MAKE MYSELF VERY MUCH AWARE OF IT, SO I'M DETERMINED TO STAY TRUE TO MY ARTISTIC VISION AND TO FOLLOW THE STORY WHEREVER THE STORY GOES.

BUT THE WAYS IN WHICH IT HAS AFFECTED ME IS I DON'T READ REVIEWS, I DON'T FOLLOW ANYTHING WRITTEN ABOUT MY WORK.

SO I DO THE WORK AND I SORT OF STEP BACK.

BUT I KNOW NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT.

THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES.

WE KNOW OF SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE FACED JUST IMMENSE BACKLASH FOR SAYING SOMETHING THAT FOR SOME OF US SEEMS ABSURD AND ABSURDLY SORT OF UNEQUAL TO THE BACKLASH THAT THEY GET.

I TALK TO A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE, AND I THINK THERE'S A SENSE IN WHICH YOUNG PEOPLE WANT TO BE GOOD PEOPLE.

I SUPPOSE ALL OF US WANT TO BE GOOD PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK YOUNG PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR WANT TO BE GOOD PEOPLE.

AND USUALLY WHAT THAT DOES IS IT CAN SILENCE YOU BECAUSE IF SOCIETY'S TELLING YOU ASK A QUESTION AND YOU'RE TOLD YOU'RE PREJUDICED OR YOU'RE EVIL OR SOMETHING, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE A GOOD PERSON YOU'RE GOING TO SILENCE YOURSELF.

AND SOMETIMES YOU SAY THINGS YOU DON'T REALLY BELIEVE.

AND SOMETIMES YOU DON'T SAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

AND ALL OF THAT I THINK IS BECAUSE THERE'S A KIND OF SOCIETAL ORTHODOXY AND IT'S BOTH ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT, BY THE WAY.

I THINK THAT ON THE POLITICAL LEFT THERE IS A KIND OF SORT OF CONDESCENSION THAT OFTEN CAN BE SANCTIMONIOUS AND ON THE RIGHT THERE'S A KIND OF MEAN-SPIRITEDNESS.

SO IN THE U.S., FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THERE IS A FRENZY OF BOOK BANNING -- >> I MEAN, YOUR OWN BOOK WAS BANNED, RIGHT?

"HALF A YELLOW SUN" WAS BANNED FROM A HIGH SCHOOL IN MICHIGAN LAST YEAR.

>> YES.

SO I'M TOLD.

>> WHY?

>> AND SO MANY OTHER WONDERFUL BOOKS HAVE BEEN BANNED.

I DON'T KNOW.

SEE, THIS IS THE THING.

THERE'S SOMETHING VERY ARBITRARY ABOUT THE BANNINGS.

AND IT'S OFTEN VERY POLITICAL.

SO NOW WE'RE LOOKING AT LITERATURE NOT THROUGH ARTISTIC LENSES BUT THROUGH IDEOLOGICAL LENSES.

AND I THINK THAT'S SO DANGEROUS.

SO THAT PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WHO WANT TO CENSOR HISTORY, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO SAY OH, YOU CAN'T TEACH ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE TERRIBLE JIM CROW LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO MAKE THE WHITE STUDENTS FEEL BAD, WHICH TO ME IS JUST ABSURD.

PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

AND ON THE LEFT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY OH, YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL HOW YOU TALK ABOUT MINORITIES BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO, I DON'T KNOW, HURT THEIR FEELINGS OR SOMETHING.

AND MY SENSE IS -- AND THERE'S A LOVELY QUOTE FROM "MY LOVE" BY ROBERT LOWELL, WHY NOT SAY WHAT HAPPENED?

I THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT HAPPENED.

>> THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT YOU JUST MADE.

AND I WAS REALLY INTERESTED YOU ALSO SAID IN YOUR SPEECH, AND YOU'VE REFERRED TO THIS BRIEFLY, BUT THE DEATH OF CURIOSITY, THE DEATH OF LEARNING AND THE DEATH OF CREATIVITY IS WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE AND THAT NO HUMAN ENDEAVOR REQUIRES FREEDOM AS MUCH AS CREATIVITY DOES.

>> NO, YES, ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

I AM A WRITER AND I KNOW THAT THE PROCESS ITSELF REQUIRES A KIND OF WHAT I'M GOING TO CALL A RADICAL FREEDOM.

YOU HAVE TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE YOU'RE THINKING AND DREAMING AND LEARNING.

AND THAT'S WHERE ART COMES FROM.

BUT IF YOU START OFF THINKING THAT YOU CANNOT GO WHEREVER YOUR VISION TAKES YOU, THEN IT'S A PROBLEM.

AND I SHOULD SAY THAT IN TALKING ABOUT THIS, RIGHT?

IN SORT OF CRUSADING ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR CREATIVITY I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THE IMPORTANCE OF SORT OF SENSITIVITY OR -- AND I DON'T WANT TO SUGGEST THAT WE CANNOT WOUND PEOPLE WITH WORDS.

SO I PERSONALLY -- AND I THINK MOST OF US HAVE BEEN HURT BY WORDS.

BUT I THINK BECAUSE OF THAT THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO PROTECT SPEECH.

IT HAS SUCH POWER.

AND MAYBE WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IS LET'S CREATE A SPACE WHERE WE ASSUME THAT THERE'S GOOD FAITH.

SO IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING LET'S NOT JUMP TO THE MOST UNCHARITABLE INTERPRETATION.

RIGHT?

LET'S -- AND I KNOW THAT SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE GOOD FAITH.

I KNOW THAT.

I KNOW THAT THERE'S TROLLING.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE CAN SAY THAT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT OF GOOD FAITH THEN THAT THE PRINCIPLE ITSELF OF GOOD FAITH IS DEAD.

AND I THINK WE JUST NEED MORE PEOPLE TO SPEAK UP.

WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO SHOW MORAL COURAGE.

WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THIS KIND OF ENCROACHING SELF-CENSORSHIP THAT I THINK IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> AND IN INDIA, THE WORLD'S MOST POPULOUS DEMOCRACY, THERE ARE ALSO CONCERNS OVER PRESS FREEDOM UNDER THE MODI REGIME.

INDIA TAX OFFICIALS RAIDED THE NEW DELHI AND MUMBAI HEADQUARTERS OF THE BBC TWICE THIS WEEK.

THEY SAY THEY'RE LOOKING INTO WHETHER THE BBC DIVERTED PROFITS AND AVOIDED PAYING TAXES, WHICH THE CORPORATION DENIES.

BUT MANY SUSPECT THIS IS JUST THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT TRYING TO STRIKE BACK AT THE BBC FOR AIRING A DOCUMENTARY THAT WAS CRITICAL OF PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI.

CNN'S VERICA SUD REPORTS.

>> Reporter: INDIA'S GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LIKE WHAT SOME JOURNALISTS ARE SAYING ABOUT IT.

LAST MONTH A BBC DOCUMENTARY CRITICAL OF INDIAN PRIME MINISTER NARENDRA MODI WAS BANNED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ON TUESDAY AGENTS FROM THE INDIAN TAX DEPARTMENT ENTERED THE BBC'S OFFICES IN NEW DELHI AND MUMBAI.

EMPLOYEES WEREN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE OR TO ENTER BY AGENTS WHO SAID THEY WERE CARRYING OUT A SURVEY.

THE LOCAL PRESS PACK WATCHES ON AS THE RULING POLITICAL PARTY ISSUES A NEW CHALLENGE TO A MEDIA OUTLET IT CONSIDERS HOSTILE.

THIS JOURNALIST DOESN'T HAVE THE MIGHT OF AN INTERNATIONAL NEWS ORGANIZATION BEHIND HIM.

INSTEAD HE SAYS HIS REPORTING OF A POLITICALLY CHARGED RAPE CASE EARNED HIM MORE THAN TWO YEARS IN PRISON WITHOUT A TRIAL.

HE WAS CHARGED UNDER AN ANTI-TERROR LAW HE SAYS IS BEING WIELDED BY THE GOVERNMENT TO SILENCE DISSENT.

[ SPEAKING NON-ENGLISH ] "AS LONG AS YOU SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT, PUBLISH THEIR PRESS RELEASE IN NEWSPAPERS, YOU'RE A GOOD JOURNALIST.

IF YOU RAISE YOUR VOICE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, IF YOU HIGHLIGHT THEIR FAILURES, DRACONIAN LAWS WILL BE SLAPPED AGAINST YOU," KAPAN TELLS ME.

HE SAYS SUPPORTERS OF THE MODI GOVERNMENT HAVE THREATENED HIM ONLINE.

HE IS OUT ON BAIL YOU WHY BUT HE SAYS HE STILL DOESN'T FEEL FREE.

HE'S BEEN HOLED UP IN THIS TINY TWO-ROOM APARTMENT WITH HIS FAMILY OFTEN TOO WORRIED TO GO OUTSIDE.

INDIA'S MEDIA LANDSCAPE IS MASSIVE.

ACCORDING TO REPORTERS WITHOUT BORDERS THERE ARE OVER 100,000 NEWSPAPERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND OVER 350 TV NEWS CHANNELS.

BUT DESPITE ITS SIZE AND DIVERSITY THE MEDIA INDUSTRY IN INDIA IS SOUNDING INCREASINGLY SIMILAR.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT TELEVISION CHANNELS, LOOK AT THE BIG PAPERS, WHAT YOU GET IS A VERY SANITIZED VERSION OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND IN MANY CASES THE ACTIVE ESPOUSAL OF THE GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA.

>> Reporter: "THE WIRE" IS AN INDEPENDENT NEWS ORGANIZATION.

ITS FOUNDER SAYS THE INDIAN PRESS HAS BEEN IN CRISIS SINCE THE MODI GOVERNMENT CAME TO POWER IN 2014.

>> INDIA'S DEMOCRACY IS FRANKLY ON LIFE SUPPORT.

>> Reporter: THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT HINTED AT IRREGULARITIES BEING THE REASON FOR RAIDS AT BBC'S OFFICES.

BUT FOR CRITICS THE WORLD'S LARGEST DEMOCRACY HAS LITTLE TOLERANCE FOR VOICES OF DISSENT.

>> THAT WAS VERICCA SUD REPORTING.

TURNING NOW TO AFGHANISTAN.

IN DANGER OF BEING FORGOTTEN DESPITE ITS OUTSIZED GLOBAL IMPACT.

A BRUTALLY HARSH WINTER IS MAKING A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS EVEN WORSE, PARTICULARLY FOR WOMEN.

FOR NATION'S LOOKING TO SUPPORT AFGHANS, THE TALIBAN GOVERNMENT WITH ITS ANTI-WOMAN POLICIES PRESENTS A MORAL DILEMMA.

SEND BILLIONS TO SAVE LIVES, WHICH WOULD STRENGTHEN THE REGIME, OR WITHHOLD AID AND CONDEMN AFGHANISTAN'S WOMEN AND CHILDREN TO FURTHER CATASTROPHE?

FEW WESTERNERS UNDERSTAND THE TALIBAN'S RISE, FALL AND RISE AGAIN LIKE THE AMERICAN JOURNALIST JERE VAN DYK.

IN THE 1980s HE EMBEDDED WITH THE NOTORIOUS HAQQANI NETWORK, CLOSE ALLIES AT THE TIME OF THE U.S.

IN THAT WAR AGAINST SOVIET OCCUPATION.

NOW FORMING THE BACKBONE OF THE TALIBAN.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "WITHOUT BORDERS: THE HAQQANI NETWORK AND THE ROAD TO KABUL," VAN DYK LOOKS INSIDE WHAT THE U.S. CALLS THE MOST LETHAL INSURGENT GROUP IN THE REGION.

>> JERE VAN DYK, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> CAN I START BY ASKING YOU TO REFLECT ON WHAT THE U.S. NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER SAYS ABOUT THE HAQQANIS?

QUOTE, THE MOST LETHAL AND SOPHISTICATED INSURGENT GROUP FIGHTING AGAINST AMERICAN TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN.

YOU GO WAY BACK WITH THEM.

AND WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO THAT.

BUT DOES THIS CURRENT DESCRIPTION MATCH WHAT YOU KNOW?

>> YES.

WITHOUT A DOUBT.

IN FACT, I WOULD GO EVEN FURTHER THAN THAT AND SAY THAT I CONSIDER THE HAQQANI NETWORK, MEANING HEADQUARTERED WITH THE HAQQANI FAMILY, TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE, MOST POWERFUL JIHADIST GROUP IN THE WORLD.

THEIR REACH IS THROUGHOUT OF COURSE AFGHANISTAN BUT BECAUSE OF THE SUCCESS OF THEIR FATHER, JALALADIN AND THE SUCCESS OF HIS SON NOW, SERAZADIN WHO WAS MILITARY COMMANDER OF THE TALIBAN AND NOW HAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT POSITION IN AFGHANISTAN, THAT THOSE TWO MEN VEIL TREMENDOUS INFLUENCE THROUGHOUT IN MY EXPERIENCE, IN MY WORK, THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> SO NOW LET'S BREAK THIS DOWN.

SERAJHUDIN HAQQANI IS THE POST POWERFUL TALIBAN LEADER.

HE HAS THE BIGGEST ARMED FORCE UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP.

HE'S THE INTERIOR MINISTER.

I HAVE SPOKEN TO HIM.

HE GAVE ME ALL THESE PLEDGES ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS WHICH WE KNOW HAVE NOT YET HAPPENED.

AND WHEN I PRESSED HIM ON WHETHER IN FACT IT WAS THE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST LEADER, THE EMIR, WHO WAS MOSTLY IN CHARGE, THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT THE STRUCTURE.

>> Translator: THERE IS NO DIVISION IN THE GOVERNMENT TO SPLIT KABUL FROM KANDAHAR.

YOU MAY HAVE SEEN STATEMENTS FROM SHEIKH SAHED, SUPREME LEADER, ABOUT HOW COMMITTED HE IS TO WOMAN'S RIGHT.

HOWEVER, THERE MIGHT BE DIFFERENT EXPECTATION AND WAYS OF THINKING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER COUNTRIES TOO YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS.

THIS IS A BASELESS STATEMENT THAT THERE'S A SPLIT AMONGST THE TALIBAN.

>> AND YET, JERE, I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY VERY SENIOR PEOPLE INCLUDING AROUND HIM THAT IN FACT THERE IS A SPLIT AND THE KABUL TALIBAN LED BY SIRAJUDDIN WANT TO ALLOW WOMEN TO STUDY AND WORK AND ALL THE REST OF IT BUT THE KANDAHAR FUNDAMENTALISTS DO NOT.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

THE PEOPLE AROUND SIRAJ HOOUDIN WHO THE REST YOU'RE TALKING TO ARE RIGHT.

THERE'S DEFINITELY A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KABUL AND KANDAHAR, WITHOUT QUESTION.

>> AND DO YOU SEE HOW THIS CAN OR WILL BE RESOLVED GIVEN YOUR LONG-TERM EXPERIENCE WITH THIS GROUP?

>> NO.

THIS IS -- AND TO QUOTE SIRAJHUDDIN'S BEST FRIEND WITH WHOM I'M IN TOUCH FREQUENTLY, DANGEROUS.

DANGEROUS FOR AFGHANISTAN.

BECAUSE THE MAJORITY, THE MAJORITY OF THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP ITSELF SUPPORTS GIRLS' EDUCATION AND FOR WOMEN TO HAVE A GREATER ROLE IN THE SOCIETY.

BUT IT COMES DOWN TO VERY FEW MEN AT THE TOP AND FRANKLY THE EMIR HIMSELF, WHOM SOME PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE INNER CIRCLE WILL CALL HIM A VILLAGE MULLAH WITH THAT ATTITUDE, THE TRADITION, THE BELIEF THAT WOMEN HAVE NO NEED OF EDUCATION, THEY ARE TO BE KEPT AT HOME, THEY ARE TO BE KEPT FROM OUTSIDERS SO THEY ARE NOT IN ANY WAY HARMED OR THAT THEIR VIRTUE IS MAINTAINED ABOVE ALL.

SO THAT DIVISION THAT SIRAJUDDIN TALKED ABOUT, HE MAY HAVE DONE THIS FOR POLITICAL REASONS, IS VERY CLEARLY NOT THE CASE.

THERE IS A VERY CLEAR DIVISION BETWEEN THE TWO AND IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE EMIR HIMSELF.

>> I WANT TO KNOW, THOUGH, NOW, GOING BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

JILALUDDIN IS THE ORIGINAL FOUNDER OF THE HAQQANI NETWORK AND HE WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE ANTI-SOVIET COMMUNIST MUJAHADIN DURING THE '80s.

DOES THIS HATRED OF WOMEN, THIS FUNDAMENTALIST MEDIEVAL VERSION OF ISLAM GO BACK AS FAR AS HE?

WAS HE LIKE THAT TOO?

>> ALL THE TIME I SPENT WITH HIM NOT ONCE DID WE EVER TALK ABOUT WOMEN.

IN MY YEARS OVER TIME, OVER MANY YEARS IN AFGHANISTAN WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG AND I WAS THERE IN 1973, YES, IT WAS COMPLETELY OPEN, A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD.

BUT ONCE THE MUJAHADIN BEGAN TO RISE, WE KNOW THAT STORY, THE WOMEN DISAPPEARED, AND IT IS TRUE.

I HAVE NEVER MET THE WIFE OF ANY AFGHAN I HAVE DEALT WITH.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FIRST VISIT THERE.

WHY DID YOU EVEN GO?

>> I THINK ALL TRAVEL IS ESCAPE AND PURSUIT IN EQUAL PARTS.

I WAS A RUNNER AT THE TIME.

I EARNED SOME MONEY, A LITTLE BIT, ON THE INTERNATIONAL TRACK AND FIELD CIRCUIT.

AND THEN I CALLED MY PARENTS AND I SAID I WANT TO TRAVEL ACROSS ASIA BECAUSE I HAD HEARD AT THAT TIME THAT IN EUROPE YOU COULD BUY AN OLD CAR AND YOU COULD DRIVE IT ACROSS ASIA AND SELL IT FOR A PROFIT IN, SAY, KATHMANDU OR EVEN AS FAR AS INDIA AND THEN TAKE THAT MONEY AND THEN YOU FLY HOME.

SO IT WAS A SENSE OF ADVENTURE BECAUSE WE KNEW AT THAT TIME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WERE TRAVELING ACROSS ASIA.

THE BLACK FLAG OF RADICAL ISLAM HAD NOT YET DESCENDED UPON ASIA.

IRAN WAS RUN BY THE SHAH.

IT WAS WIDE OPEN.

AND SO IT WAS -- IT WAS AN ADVENTURE.

>> DESCRIBE JUST WHAT WOMEN LOOKED LIKE.

WHAT WERE YOUR CONVERSATIONS AT THAT TIME, IN 1973?

>> WITHOUT A DOUBT THEY DRESSED JUST LIKE WOMEN DRESSED IN THE WEST.

WHETHER IT WAS IN EUROPE OR IN NORTH AMERICA.

I'D SAY AT LEAST HALF THE WOMEN YOU'D SEE THERE, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER WOMEN, CERTAINLY WERE NOT VEILED, DID NOT WEAR A CHOUDARY COVERING THEMSELVES.

LITTLE SCHOOL GIRLS WORE KNEE SOCKS, SHORT SKIRTS, CARRIED THEIR BOOKS IN THE STREETS LAUGHING.

IT WAS A TIME -- IT WAS SO ROEMT ROEMT ROMANTIC.

THE ROMANCE OF IT AND WHAT ATTRACTED ME WAS THE LONG CAMEL CARAVANS THAT CAME THROUGH THE STREETS, HALF OF THEM WERE DIRT THEN, CAME THROUGH THE STREETS.

AND THE ONLY THING YOU COULD HEAR IN THE LATE AFTERNOON SUN WOULD BE THE TINKLING OF THE BELLS AS THE CARAVAN PASSED THROUGH.

THE WOMEN IN THOSE CARAVANS WERE DEFINITELY NOT VEILED.

HALF OF THEM WERE IN BARE FEET.

LITTLE GIRLS CARRIED I'D SAY A PET GOAT OR PET LAMB WITH THEM AS THEY WALKED BY.

IT WAS A MARVELOUS TIME.

>> AND THEN FAST FORWARD AGAIN, YOU WENT BACK IN THE '80s RIGHT AFTER THE SOVIET INVASION.

YOU WERE A JOURNALIST BY THEN WORKING FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

HOW YOU DISCOVER JALALLUDINE?

>> I HAD THIS ROMANTIC SENSE OF MUJAHADIN, MEN WITH OLD BRITISH RIFLES FIGHTING AGAINST THE MIGHTY RED ARMY.

I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO COULD FIT THE IMAGE I HAD OF AN AFGHAN IF YOU WILL MUJAHADIN WARRIOR.

AND I COULDN'T FIND ONE.

AND THEN I CAME TO ONE PLACE LED BY -- THERE WAS A MAN NAMED YUNES HARES, LONG GRAY BEARD, BANDOLIER, CARRIED A PISTOL, BARREL CHEST, DEEP VOICE, SITTING ON A WOOD FLOOR DRINKING GREEN TEA.

AND A MAN NEXT TO HIM SAID IN ENGLISH, "HOW CAN WE HELP YOU?"

AND I KNEW INSTINCTIVELY THESE ARE THE MEN I WANTED TO GO WITH.

>> SO WHEN YOU WENT TO DISCOVER THE MUJAHADIN YOU EVENTUALLY ENDED UP IN A COMPOUND WHICH WAS HEADQUARTERS OF THE HAQQANI FIGHTERS.

WHAT WAS JALLALOUDINE HAQQANI LIKE THEN?

HE WAS AN ALLY OF THE AMERICANS THEN.

>> HE WAS A VERY CLOSE ALLY.

MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH HIM, IN A SMALL ROOM, HE AND OTHER MEN WERE SITTING ON THE FLOOR LOOKING AT A MAP.

HEAVILY BEARDED.

A MAN HANDED ME A GLASS OF GREEN TEA AND THEN JALLALOUDINE CAME OVER WITH A SMALL PLATE OF HONEY AND HE WELCOMED ME, SHOOK HANDS.

VERY STRONG HANDSHAKE.

ABOUT SIX FEET, SOLID.

AND HE SAID IN PERFECT ENGLISH, "WELCOME.

YOU ARE OUR GUEST.

WE WILL TALK LATER."

AND HE WENT BACK TO HIS MEN.

AND SO FOR THE NEXT MONTH, IT WAS A LITTLE OAF A MONTH, I LIVED WITH HIM, HIS YOUNGER BROTHER IBRAHAM, AND 16 FELLOW TRIBESMEN, ALL OF THE ZADRAN TRIBE IN THAT MOUNTAIN COMPOUND.

>> AND THEY TREATED YOU FRIENDLY, RIGHT?

I MEAN, YOU WERE A FRIEND, A WELCOME GUEST.

>> WITHOUT A DOUBT.

I WAS TREATED WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT.

WHAT STRUCK ME ABOUT JALLALOUDINE WAS WHETHER IT WAS RAINING, WHETHER IT WAS SLEET, WHETHER IT WAS SNOWING, BECAUSE IT SNOWED A LOT LATER ON, FIVE TIMES A DAY HE WOULD STAND ON THE ROOF OF HIS SMALL ROOM ON TOP OF THIS COMPOUND, CUP HIS HANDS TOGETHER AND CALL THE MEN TO PRAYER.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN, WHEN YOU WENT BACK SEVERAL TIMES AGAIN AS A JOURNALIST AFTER 9/11 THINGS CHANGED.

THE RELATIONSHIP CHANGED.

THE ATMOSPHERE ON THE GROUND CHANGED.

YOU WERE EVEN AT ONE POINT CAPTURED BY THESE PEOPLE WHO ESSENTIALLY WERE ONCE YOUR FRIENDS.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED?

>> WHEN I ARRIVED BACK AFTER 9/11, WORKING FOR CBS, I LANDED AT THE BAGRAM AIR BASE, I LOOKED UP IN THE MOUNTAINS AND I IMAGINED THE TALIBAN UP THERE AND I ASKED MYSELF, I WONDER HOW DIFFERENT THEY ARE FROM THE MUJAHADIN.

AND PART OF ME WANTED TO SEE THEM AGAIN BECAUSE I HELD ON TO THE PAST, THE FACT THAT THEY WERE OUR ALLIES.

THEY SAVED MY LIFE MORE THAN ONCE.

HOW COULD THEY CHANGE SO MUCH?

AND THEN I RAILSED THAT I WAS NO LONGER THEIR FRIEND BUT THEIR ENEMY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I HELD ON TO THE PAST.

JALLALOUDINE TREATED ME SO WELL.

MOST VIVIDLY, TAKING ME THROUGH A MINEFIELD WITH CAMELS IN FRONT TO PROTECT US.

AND WE LOST TWO CAMELS.

THEY STEPPED ON THE MINES IN FRONT OF ME.

HE WAS WILLING TO RISK HIS OWN MEN'S LIFE, THEIR LIVES, TO PROTECT ME.

AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN WE ARE THEIR ENEMIES?

WHAT IN THE WORLD HAS HAPPENED?

WE HAD WITH OUR -- IN THE 1980s THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ARAB ALLIES HAD INVITED IN A MERS AREA V NARY ARMY OF ARABS WHO WE CALLED ARAB AFGHANS, OUT OF WHICH CAME LOCK AL QAEDA.

THIS WAS HARD FOR ME TO GRASP.

I WAS CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

I WANTED TO GO BECAUSE I WANTED TO FIND JALLALOUDINE AGAIN.

I COULDN'T BELIEVE HE AND HIS MEN HAD CHANGED SO MUCH.

AND IT WAS DURING THAT TIME IN 2008 WHEN I WAS LIVING UP ALONG THE AFGHAN-PAKISTANI BORDER FOR SEVEN MONTHS CROSSING -- MEETING WITH THE TALIBAN WHO NEVER HARMED ME UNTIL THEY DID.

AND THEN I WAS CAPTURED -- I WAS KIDNAPPED IN THE TRIBAL AREAS OF PAKISTAN IN FEBRUARY 2008.

TRUE.

>> WHAT DID THAT EXPERIENCE TELL YOU ABOUT YOURSELF, THE LAST EXPERIENCE, THE CAPTURE?

>> WHAT DID THAT TELL ME ABOUT MYSELF?

YOU WENT TO THE HEART RIGHT THERE.

NO ONE HAS ASKED ME THAT QUESTION.

I GET EMOTIONAL WHEN I GO BACK TO THAT.

THE HARDEST PART OF THAT TIME WAS WHEN THEY -- IT WAS LATE AT NIGHT, CLOSE TO MIDNIGHT, AND THE LEADER OF THE TALIBAN UNIT THAT CAPTURED ME HANDED ME -- THEY TOOK EVERYTHING I HAD, AND I HAD A SMALL VIDEO CAMERA.

AND HE THRUST IT AT ME AND HE SAID HOW DO I MAKE THIS WORK?

AND I SAID OH, NO.

OH, NO.

I'M ABOUT TO HELP YOU.

YOU WANT ME TO HELP YOU FILM MY OWN EXECUTION.

AND THE MEN LINED UP BEHIND ME JUST AS I HAD SEEN ON TELEVISION THE MEN LINE UP BEHIND WHEN THEY MURDERED NICK BERG AND OTHER FOREIGNERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THEN THEY TOOK A KALASHNIKOV AND THEY PUSHED IT AGAINST MY TEMPLE.

AND I SAID TO MYSELF, HOW DO I WANT TO DIE?

DO I WANT TO DIE WITH THAT BULLET -- WITH BULLETS ACROSS MY CHEST OR DO I WANT TO DIE BY BEING BEHEADED?

BECAUSE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IS THE ALLEVIATION OF PAIN.

HOW QUICKLY THIS -- HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?

AND IT TOOK FOREVER.

THIS IS WHY I ADMIRED SO MUCH THOSE -- THE MEN WHO WERE MURDERED LATER ON BY ISIS.

HOW THEY KEPT THEIR HEADS UP.

IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO RAISE MY HEAD FROM DOWN AND EXPOSE MY NECK AND LOOK DIRECTLY AT MY KILLER AND SAY, OKAY.

IT'S JUST YOU AND ME.

GO AHEAD.

AND IT WAS THAT -- WHEN YOU ARE AT THAT POINT, ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS DYING WITH DIGNITY AND ALLEVIATING THE PAIN.

HOW QUICKLY IT WILL TAKE.

SO I THOUGHT OF MY FATHER.

MY MOTHER HAD GONE.

MY BROTHER AND MY SISTER AND THEIR CHILDREN.

AND I LOOKED AND I SAID IT'S JUST YOU AND ME, LET'S GO NOW.

AND SO WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT MYSELF, AND IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD, WHICH MAKES THAT NIGHT, THAT MOMENT THE WORST AND THE BEST NIGHT, TIME OF MY LIFE, IS THAT I HAD THE COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FACE MY KILLER.

>> JUST AMAZING.

>> THAT I'M NOT A COWARD.

>> JUST AMAZING.

FAR FROM A COWARD.

WHAT AN AMAZING REVELATION AND WHAT A GREAT STORY.

JERE VAN DYK, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

WHAT A FASCINATING BOOK.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>>> AND NOW WE LOOK AT ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST RECOGNIZABLE SYMBOLS, THE U.S.

FLAG.

IT IS SEEN HANGING ON ALMOST EVERY PUBLIC BUILDING AND FROM COUNTLESS AMERICAN HOMES.

BUT IF YOU HAVE EVER WONDERED WHERE ALL THOSE FLAGS COME FROM AND WHO MAKES THEM, THE ANSWER IS TO BE FOUND IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY.

"THE FLAGMAKERS."

>> WHEN I MOVED FROM SERBIA, IT SURPRISED ME A LITTLE BIT HOW MUCH AMERICANS LOVE THEIR FLAG.

>> DIRECTORS SHARON LIESE AND CYNTHIA WADE MEET THE FACTORY WORKERS WHO ARE STITCHING STARS AND STRIPES FOR A LIVING.

AND THEY JOIN HARI SREENIVASAN TO EXPLORE THAT AND THE RELATIONSHIP THEY'VE BUILT WITH THIS NATIONAL EMBLEM.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF OUR ONGOING NARRATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED "CHASING THE DREA DREAM."

>> SHARON LIESE, CYNTHIA WADE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

HOW DID YOU FIND THIS FACTORY THAT MADE FLAGS IN THE MIDDLE OF WISCONSIN AND FOUND THERE'S A STORY HERE?

>> WITH EVERY FILM IT HAS ITS OWN STORY ABOUT HOW YOU FOUND IT.

CYNTHIA AND I HAVE WORKED TOGETHER FOR MANY YEARS AND WE'VE BEEN GOOD FRIENDS FOR MANY YEARS AND WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD.

AND WE WERE REALLY NOTICING THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT AND WANTED TO DO SOMETHING IN THAT SPACE.

AND I LIVE IN KANSAS CITY.

AND AT FIRST WE FOUND THIS PROGRAM THAT TAUGHT WOMEN HOW TO SEE V SEW, IMMIGRANTS, AND AT THE END OF THIS PROGRAM THEY GET JOBS.

AND WE FOUND THERE WAS THIS ONE WOMAN WHO GOT A JOB AT A FLAG FACTORY, AND ONCE WE SAW THAT WE WERE LIKE THIS HAS TO BE THE STORY.

AND WE COULD NOT GET ACCESS TO THAT ONE PLACE, THE FACTORY IN KANSAS CITY, SO WE DID A NATIONWIDE SEARCH.

AND AT THAT POINT WE FOUND THIS PLACE IN MILWAUKEE CALLED EITHER FLAG.

AND CYNTHIA WAS ON A COMMERCIAL SHOOT IN CHICAGO AT THE TIME.

AND I CALLED HER AND I SAID HEY, I JUST FOUND THIS PLACE, I JUST TALKED TO THEM, CAN YOU GET THERE TOMORROW?

AND SHE DID.

AND THEN OUR FILM CAME TO BE.

>> YEAH.

SO CYNTHIA, DESCRIBE THE FIRST TIME YOU WALK INTO THIS FLAG FACTORY, PROBABLY A PLACE THAT MOST PEOPLE WILL NEVER GET TO SEE THE INSIDE OF, BUT WHAT MADE YOU IS SAY I THINK WE HAVE A THING?

>> IT'S THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY THING TO WALK INTO THIS FLAG FACTORY.

IT'S THE LARGEST FLAG AND FLAGPOLE MANUFACTURER IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE ARE OVER 200 EMPLOYEES.

THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU HEAR DOZENS OF LANGUAGES ON THE FACTORY FLOOR.

AND WHAT WAS SO TOUCHING TO ME WAS THAT AT EVERY STATION A SEWER WOULD HAVE JUST THINGS FROM THEIR HOME COUNTRY, THEIR HOME LIFE.

SOMETIMES IT WOULD BE A FLAG OF THEIR HOME COUNTRY.

SOMETIMES IT MIGHT BE JUST A PHOTO OF FAMILY BACK HOME.

I HEARD RADIOS.

SO YOU'D HEAR MOROCCAN MUSIC AND SERBIAN MUSIC.

AND THEN WHEN I WALKED INTO THE BREAK ROOM AND SAW THE EMPLOYEES EATING LUNCH AND SAW THESE TUPPERWARES OPENING UP WHERE IT'S THE FOODS OF THE WORLD, I THOUGHT WOW, THIS IS LIKE A UNITED RIGHT HERE AND IN A WAY IT'S A MICROCOSM OF THE COUNTRY.

>> YEAH.

AND WHAT IS IT, YOU STARTED DIVING INTO THIS PLACE, THESE PEOPLE, HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT WHICH STORIES TO START FOCUSING ON BECAUSE IF THEY'RE REFUGEES OR IF THEY'VE COME HERE LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE THEY PROBABLY ALL WENT THROUGH SOME SORT OF HARDSHIP TO GET HERE.

>> YEAH, IT'S TRUE THAT EVERY PERSON -- OF ALL THE 200 EMPLOYEES EVERY SINGLE STORY YOU FIND IS LIKE MORE COMPELLING THAN THE NEXT ONE.

IT WAS A REALLY TOUGH DECISION WHEN WE CHOSE -- HAD TO CHOOSE THE PEOPLE BECAUSE WE HAD SO MANY STORIES THAT ACTUALLY DIDN'T MAKE IT INTO THE FILM BECAUSE THE CHARACTERS HAVE STORY AFTER STORY AND OUR MAIN PERSON, RADISA, WHO'S FROM SERBIA, WE STARTED OUT WHEN WE FIRST MET HER WE THOUGHT SHE'S OUR GUIDE, SHE'S GOING TO TAKE US ALL THE WAY THROUGH THIS FILM.

AND THEN WE STARTED WORKING ON IT BECAUSE IT TOOK US THREE YEARS AND THEN WE EDITED FOR A YEAR.

WE KIND OF LOOKED AWAY FROM THAT IDEA FOR A WHILE AND STARTED MAKING IT JUST A VERITE FILM.

AND THEN WE REALIZED THAT OUR INSTINCTS WERE RIGHT AND WE WENT BACK TO HAVING RADISA BEING OUR GUIDE IN THE FILM.

>> WHILE YOU'RE FILMING THIS THE NATION IS ALSO GOING THROUGH THIS NATIONAL RECKONING ON RACE.

AND YOU IN THE FILM INTRODUCE US TO AN AFRICAN AMERICAN EMPLOYEE NAMED SUGAR RAY.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT HIM AND HIS NUANCED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FLAG AND WITH THE COUNTRY AND WITH RACE IN AMERICA.

>> YEAH.

WE THOUGHT HIS STORY WAS SO IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE BECAUSE HE HAS SUCH A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE AMERICAN FLAG AND SUCH A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH AMERICA.

AND WE DON'T REALLY FEEL LIKE THERE'S ENOUGH VOICE TO THAT STORY.

AND WE WERE REALLY FORTUNATE THAT HE WAS WILLING TO SHARE THAT WITH US AND THEN SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD IN THE FILM.

YEAH.

HE'S -- IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE HE GREW UP IN MILWAUKEE AND KIND OF GREW UP SEEING A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT AMERICA, YOU KNOW, AS HE SAYS, YOU LOVE AMERICA BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS LOVE YOU BACK.

AND THEN HE SEES THESE IMMIGRANTS, LIKE YOU SAID, COME IN AND THEY ARE SO FULL OF HOPE AND THEY'RE COMING HERE TO MAKE GOOD ON THE PROMISE THAT AMERICA SUPPOSEDLY HAS OUT THERE.

AND SUGAR RAY, YEAH, DOES GIVE US A DOSE OF REALITY AND LETS US KNOW THAT NOT EVERYBODY REALLY CAN -- GETS THAT PROMISE.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER CHARACTER NAMED BARB WHO YOU KIND OF HAVE AN IDEA MAYBE THAT SHE HAS MORE CONSERVATIVE VIEWS ON THINGS.

>> GOOD MORNING.

NICE PEOPLE HERE.

REALLY NICE.

I'M TIRED, MAN.

TAKE A NAP IN ONE OF THESE PILES OF FLAGS.

WHOOPSIES.

ALL RIGHT.

>> I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THEIR NAMES.

THEIR NAMES ARE DIFFERENT THAN AMERICAN NAMES.

BUT THAT'S OKAY.

I MEAN, IF YOU COME TO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY, THAT'S FINE.

>> SEWING FLAGS, IT'S KIND OF IN MY BLOOD.

MY ANCESTORS FOUGHT FOR THAT FLAG.

MY GRANDFATHER WAS IN THE SERVICE.

MY FATHER.

MY BROTHER.

I'M JUST PROUD OF IT.

THAT'S MY COUNTRY.

BETTER THAN A LOT OF COUNTRIES.

THAT'S ALL I KNOW.

>> SHE'S THE ONE WHO'S HELPING FELLOW EMPLOYEES STUDY FOR MAYBE A CITIZENSHIP TEST OR A GREEN CARD TEST.

BRUSHING UP ON THE CONSTITUTION.

>> YEAH.

WHAT WE LOVED ABOUT BARB IS THAT SHE'S NOT A STEREOTYPE OF WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT.

WHEN WE SAT IN AUDIENCES WITH PEOPLE AND WATCHED THEM SEE THIS FILM, AND WHEN SHE RETIRES PEOPLE HAVE TEARS RUNNING DOWN THEIR EYES.

AND PEOPLE HAVE AN EXPERIENCE WITH HER THAT SHE'S NOT JUST ONE-DIMENSIONAL.

WE FELT LIKE SHE WAS SO IMPORTANT TO THE FILM BECAUSE IS SHE LET PEOPLE SEE THAT SHE MAY HAVE CERTAIN POLITICS BUT THE CONNECTION AND HUMANITY BETWEEN PEOPLE IS JUST SO MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT.

>> CYNTHIA, THERE'S ANOTHER CHARACTER I WANT TO INTRODUCE TO THE AUDIENCE NAMED ALI WHO CAME FROM IRAQ.

>> THE STRUGGLES THAT HE'S GOING THROUGH, SIMILAR TO SO MANY IMMIGRANTS IN AMERICA, INCLUDE, YOU KNOW, A VERY DIFFICULT CONVERSATION HE'S HAVING WITH SOMEONE CLOSE TO HIM ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO HIM IN A STORE.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, WE MET ALI.

HE HAD BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES FOR LESS THAN 90 DAYS WHEN WE MET HIM.

A MAN WITH A YOUNG FAMILY WHO FLED IRAQ.

IT TOOK HIM 12 YEARS TO GET TO THE UNITED STATES.

THEY LANDED IN MILWAUKEE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SNOW JUST BEFORE ESSENTIALLY THE PANDEMIC HIT.

AND HE CAME WITH SUCH GREAT HOPE AND SO MUCH EXCITEMENT BECAUSE HE WAS SEWING THE AMERICAN FLAG.

AND IT'S INTERESTING IN THE FILM BECAUSE YOU SEE SUGAR RAY, WHO'S BORN AND BRED IN MILWAUKEE, A BLACK MAN, SAY I UNDERSTAND THE PRIDE THAT THE IMMIGRANTS HAVE TOWARD THE AMERICAN FLAG, LIKE THAT'S A REAL THING TO REALLY WANT TO GO AFTER AND FIND THE AMERICAN DREAM, BUT THERE ARE MANY STORIES TO THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING AMERICAN.

AND SUGAR RAY OBVIOUSLY HAS HAD THAT LIVED EXPERIENCE OF INEQUALITY IN THIS NATION.

AND THEN A YEAR AND A HALF INTO OUR FILMING ALI GETS HIT, JUST WALLOPED BY A STRANGER AT A WALMART.

AND THE STRANGER HIT HIM PRESUMABLY BECAUSE HE WAS SPEAKING ARABIC.

AND THEN FLED.

AND SUDDENLY THOSE DREAMS OF ARLENE, HIS WIFE, ARE SHATTERED, ARE SHAKEN BECAUSE IT ISN'T AS SIMPLE AS WHAT HE THOUGHT WHEN HE CAME TO THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US BECAUSE THAT EXISTS TOO.

LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF GRAY AREA IN THIS COUNTRY AND IT CAN GIVE YOU SO MUCH HOPE BUT IT ALSO CAN BREAK YOUR HEART.

>> SHARON, ONE OF THE SCENES THAT WE SEE IN THE FILM IS SUGAR RAY AND HIS SON, IT LOOKS LIKE, WATCHING SCENES ON JANUARY 6th.

AND I WONDER HOW THE PEOPLE THAT YOU SPOKE WITH AND ARE IN TOUCH WITH AT THE FACTORY KIND OF SAW THAT -- LITERALLY THE VERY PRODUCT THAT THEY MAKE, THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THIS SYMBOL OF FREEDOM, WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE CARRYING IN AS THEY STORMED THE CAPITOL.

I MEAN, IT JUST WAS AN INTERESTING MOMENT, AND I WONDER KIND OF WHAT'S GOING THROUGH THAT PERSON'S MIND WHO'S SEWING THIS FLAG WHEN THEY WATCH THAT TV.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS A VERY SOLEMN EVENT IN TIME FOR PEOPLE IN THE FACTORY.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT MOST PEOPLE THAT WE SPOKE TO, BECAUSE WE DID ACTUALLY DO A SERIES OF INTERVIEWS, AND IT WAS -- WE THOUGHT IT WAS ALSO VERY HELPFUL AND CATHARTIC FOR PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THEY -- BECAUSE IT'S NOT WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT OR WHAT THEY'RE DOING WHEN THEY MAKE THE FLAG.

I MEAN, THEY ALMOST -- I COULD GO SO FAR AS TO SAY THEY DO IT WITH LOVE.

I MEAN, THEY ARE SO CAREFUL AND SO PROUD OF WHAT THEY MAKE THAT IT WAS REALLY MORE THAN A SLAP IN THE FACE FOR THEM TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN AND TO SEE THAT.

I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST -- THE FLAG IS SOMEWHAT SACRED TO THEM IN THAT WAY BECAUSE IT'S THEIR WORK.

AND IT'S THE WORK OF MANY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DO IT TOGETHER.

NOT ONE PERSON JUST MAKES EACH FLAG.

IT'S MANY PEOPLE THAT MAKE THE FLAGS.

>> I LOVE AMERICA.

I KNOW IS NOT PERFECT.

BUT THAT IS BEAUTY.

YOU DON'T LOVE SOMETHING BECAUSE IT'S PERFECT.

YOU LOVE SOMETHING BECAUSE IT'S YOURS.

>> THERE SHE IS.

I WISH ALL OF MY HERE TODAY CAN SEE.

>> WHAT WAS IT LIKE WATCHING THAT EITHER FIRST OR SECONDHAND?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE TO IMAGINE THAT LEVEL OF PRIDE THAT SHE HAS IN LITERALLY HER WORK.

>> RADISA DID TAKE SO MUCH PRIDE IN MAKING THESE FLAGS AND IN RUNNING A DEPARTMENT WHERE ALL THESE FLAGS ARE MADE AND TOOK SO MUCH PRIDE -- TAKES SO MUCH PRIDE IN BEING AN AMERICAN AND A SERBIAN.

SO FOR HER BEING ABLE TO GO TO THE STATUE OF LIBERTY AND SEE ONE OF EITHER FLAGS FLYING THERE WAS JUST A MOMENT OF A LIFETIME FOR HER.

>> IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY TO WATCH IT.

SHE'D NEVER BEEN TO WORK BEFORE.

SHE'S NEVER SEEN -- I MEAN, THEY MAKE FLAGS FOR GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS ALL OVER, FOR INAUGURATIONS.

YOU NAME IT.

THEY MAKE FLAGS.

BUT IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES SHE'D TRAVELED OUTSIDE THE STATE OF WISCONSIN AND SAW THE FLAG, AND THAT WAS THEIR FLAG FLYING ON THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

I MEAN, SHE USES WORDS LIKE I BELIEVE THAT THE FLAG HAS A SOUL.

WHICH REALLY I THINK STARTLED BOTH SHANNON AND I FIRST WHEN WE HEARD THAT.

LIKE WOW.

AND THEN DURING THE -- AFTER THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION SHE GOT VERY UPSET AND IN AN INTERVIEW SAID IT'S NOT FLAG'S FAULT, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS SUCH A WONDERFUL STATEMENT.

LIKE SHE REALLY SEES THE FLAG AS A LIVING, BREATHING THING AND HAS A VERY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP TO IT.

>> SO A LITTLE BIT OF A SPOILER ALERT.

CYNTHIA, TELL US WHY DOES RADISA MAKE THIS DECISION NEAR THE END OF THE FILM?

SHE MAKES A PRETTY BIG CHOICE.

AND WHAT WAS BEHIND THAT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, TALK ABOUT NOT KNOWING WHERE A FILM'S GOING TO GO.

TOWARD THE END OF OUR FILMING -- ACTUALLY, WE THOUGHT WE WERE DONE FILMING.

RADISA TOLD US SHE WAS MAKING THE DECISION TO MOVE BACK TO SERBIA.

THAT SHE HAD GIVEN HER BEST TO THE UNITED STATES, SHE FELT LIKE THE UNITED STATES HAD GIVEN ITS BEST TO HER, BUT THAT ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, SERBIA IS THE PLACE THAT SHE WANTS TO SPEND THE REST OF HER LIFE.

AND THAT WAS SO STUNNING TO US.

AND AGAIN, IT'S A GRAY AREA, RIGHT?

ISSUE WHERE YOU CAN LOVE THIS COUNTRY AND ALSO ACHE FOR IT AND ALSO MISS WHERE YOU'VE COME FROM, MISS WHERE YOU WERE BORN.

AND KUDOS TO SHARON BECAUSE AT FIRST I WAS LIKE OH, MY GOODNESS, WE'VE BEEN EDITING FOR A YEAR, I CAN'T OPEN THIS BACK UP AND NOW INCLUDE THAT SHE'S MOVING TO SERBIA.

LIKE IT KIND OF BLEW MY MIND.

I THOUGHT I CAN'T DO THERE.

AND SHARON WAS RIGHT.

SHE SAID NO, THIS MAKES IT MUCH MORE COMPLEX AND INTERESTING, THAT YOU CAN LOVE THIS COUNTRY, GIVE IT YOUR BEST, HAVE YOUR BEST YEARS HERE, AND YET YOU CAN STILL MISS HOME.

AND SO WE DECIDED IT FOLLOW IT.

SO SHE LEFT.

SHE WENT BACK TO SERBIA.

>> DID IT CHANGE, CYNTHIA, HOW YOU MAYBE WENT IN TO THE FILM THINKING ABOUT FLAGS VERSUS HOW YOU THINK OF THEM NOW WHEN YOU SEE THEM OUT THERE?

>> YEAH, DEFINITELY.

I MEAN, I THINK IN PART I WAS REALLY EXCITED AND CURIOUS ABOUT MAKING THIS FILM TO START BECAUSE I WAS COULD FEEL IN MYSELF THIS DISCOMFORT WITH THE AMERICAN FLAG, WITH JUST THE FEELING THAT YOU SEE A FLAG IN FRONT OF SOMEBODY'S HOME OR IN THE BACK OF SOMEBODY'S PICKUP TRUCK OR A STICKER ON SOMEBODY'S CAR AND YOU IMMEDIATELY THINK OH, THEY'RE TELEGRAPHING SOMETHING, THEY'RE TELLING ME SORT OF WHAT TEAM THEY'RE ON.

AND I WAS FEELING, YOU HE KNOW, IN THE SORT OF 2018-2019 THAT IT HAD REALLY BECOME WEAPONIZED, THAT THE FLAG HAD BEEN CO-OPTED BY A VERY NARROW SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE AND THAT IT WASN'T REALLY MY FLAG AND IF I PUT A FLAG OUT IN FRONT OF MY HOME I WOULD BE SAYING SOMETHING THAT WASN'T EXACTLY HOW I WAS FEELING.

IT JUST FELT INCREDIBLY NARROW.

SO TO THEN GO IN AND SPEND THREE YEARS AT THIS LARGE FLAG FACTORY WHERE IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES AND BORN AND BRED MIDWESTERNERS ARE WORKING TOGETHER, NOW WHEN I LOOK AT A FLAG I THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE.

I THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE LITERALLY STITCHING THIS SORT OF GREATEST SYMBOL OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

AND MY HEART ACHES.

I HOPE THAT OUR DEMOCRACY MAKES IT.

I THINK WE'RE IN A VERY FRAGILE STATE.

AND I THINK WE'RE ALSO PRETTY POLARIZED AND IT WOULD JUST BE A WONDERFUL THING IF WE COULD ALL COME BACK AND KNOW THIS IS OUR FLAG AND WE CAN HAVE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION BUT IT IS OUR FLAG FOR ALL OF US.

>> IT WAS A FANTASTIC FILM.

THE FILM IS CALLED "THE FLAGMAKERS."

DIRECTORS CYNTHIA WADE AND SHARON LIESE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK.

AND I DON'T THINK I'LL LOOK AT A FLAG THE SAME AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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