>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> WELL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

WHAT A WEEK WE HAD.

KIND OF COLD, THINGS ARE WARMING UP, BUT NASA'S LAND ROVER PERSEVERANCE GOT ON MARS.

WE HAVE A PANEL THAT'S OUT OF THIS WORLD AND WE'RE GOING TO MEET THEM STARTING WITH THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS, WENDY WIESE.

ALSO THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW ON 550.

MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM YOUR ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH AND STLTODAY.COM.

HE'S A FOUNDER AND SO IS RAY HARTMANN FROM THE RIVERFRONT TIMES AS WELL AS RAWSTORY.COM AND THE BIG 550, KTRS.

AND MR. ALVIN REID FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, 590 AM, AND 97.1 FM AND NEWS TALK, THE DAVE GLOVER SHOW.

WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU, BUT FIRST I WANT TO REMIND FOLKS ON THE SECOND HALF OF THIS PROGRAM, WE CALL IT NEXT UP, WE'LL BE JOINED BY BLAKE STRODE, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ARCH CITY DEFENDERS.

HIS ORGANIZATION RECENTLY DID GET INTO THE STL JAIL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS.

WE'LL FIND THE RESULTS OF HIS INQUIRY THERE.

WELL, BILL, SINCE WE MET LAST WEEK, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME ENDORSEMENTS ON THE LOCAL POLITICAL SCENE.

WE HAVE A MAYORAL PRIMARY JUST AROUND THE CORNER IN EARLY MARCH AND AS IT TURPS OUT, TISHAURA JONES, THE TREASURER FOR THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, GOT ENDORSEMENTS FROM WESLEY BELL, THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR, AND SAM PAGE, THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNTY EXECUTIVE.

AND THEN CARA SPENCER AND LEW REED SPRITZ THE ENDORSEMENT FROM YOUR PAPER AND ITS EDITORIAL FANEL, THE POST-DISPATCH.

WHAT DO YOU PAIK OF THIS?

FIRST OF ALL, DO WE THINK THESE ENDORSEMENTS MATTER NOT VOTERS IN ST. LOUIS?

>> WELL, I THINK THEY MATTER IN THE SENSE FOR TISHAURA JONES, THAT SHE'S THE FAVORITE GOING IN.

AND THE FAVORITE, YOU WANT TO HAVE MOMENTUM GOING YOUR WAY WITH ALL THESE LITTLE THINGS AND GIVE EVERYTHING AN AIR OF INEVITABILITY, AND I THOUGHT THAT THE ENDORSEMENTS FROM THE COUNTY, FROM PAGE AND LISA CLANCY AND WESLEY BELL WERE A VERY GOOD THING FOR TISHAURA JONES.

AND I ENJOYED THE STORY IN THE NEWSPAPER ABOUT IT BY MARK WHO SAID THAT TISHAURA TWEETED BACK TO LISA CLANCY, THANK YOU, MADAM CLAIRE.

AND I'M NOT A BIG LISA CLANCY FAN, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A NICE TOUCH AND CHEEKY, AS THEY USED TO SAY.

I THINK IT MATTERS AS FAR AS MNL GOES.

>> I AGREE.

I THINK JUST PERCEPTION IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT IN A PANDEMIC, AND THE PERCEPTION HAS BEEN THAT SAM PAGE AND LYDA KREWSON WERE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE, AND THAT SOMEHOW -- I MEAN, THAT HAS BEEN A, SORT OF A ROLLING RUMOR THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC, AND THAT THE CITY AND THE COUNTY AND SOME OF THE POLICIES WERE AT ODDS, AND I THINK JUST THE SENSE THAT, HEY, WE REALLY LIKE EACH OTHER, THAT COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE MINDS OF SOME VOTERS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I DO THINK THAT WHILE -- YOU KNOW, TO ME, IT WAS A FOREGONE CONCLUSION THAT THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH WAS NOT GOING TO ENDORSE TISHAURA.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK SHE JUST DECLINED TO JUST, LIKE, TAKE PART WITH AN OP-ED AND I GUESS THEIR ZOOM KIND OF EDITORIAL BOARD MEETING WITH THE CANDIDATES.

AND I WOULD HAVE DONE THAT, OKAY?

I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND WHY SHE DIDN'T.

IN FACT, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SAY THAT SHE DID WRONG.

I WOULD HAVE DONE THAT, BUT WITH ANY ENDORSEMENT SHE GETS AT THIS TIME FROM ANYBODY, THEY'RE ALL GOOD, FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT BILL SAID, BECAUSE -- OH, AND ONE THROW-IN.

SO SPENCER RELEASE AND TV AD AND SHE ATTACKS LEWIS REED.

I MEAN JUST, YOU KNOW, GRRR, AND DOESN'T MENTION TISHAURA.

MAYBE IT'S A BATTLE FOR NUMBER GO AND NUMBER THREE TO SEE WHO GETS TO TAKE A TISHAURA.

SO ANY ENDORSEMENT IS GOOD FOR HER.

>> I'M THE ONLY ONE ON THIS FAMILIAR THAT'S ACTUALLY DOESN'T DORMA -- ACTUALLY DONE ENDORSEMENTS AND CAN PERSONALLY ATTEST TO HOW LITTLE THEY MATTER, ALTHOUGH PEOPLE DID OFFER ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO -- SOME COMPENSATION FOR ENDORSING THEIR OPPONENTS FROM TIME TO TIME.

I DON'T THINK ENDORSEMENTS MATTER MUCH.

REMEMBER TISHAURA ENDORSE -- I KNOW SHE ENDORSED SAM AND I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF SHE ENDORSED WESLEY.

AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT'S KIND OF ODD BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO WORK WITH THE OTHER CANDIDATES IN CASE THEY WIN, BUT I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

I THINK ACTUALLY IN THE CASE OF PAGE END DORTION TISHAURA, HE NEEDED IT WORSE THAN SHE DID.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH GOOD IT'S GOING TO DO HER, BUT HE'S GOT ENOUGH PROBLEMS IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY WITH THE TROY DOYLE SUIT OUT AND EVERYTHING, I THINK IT ACTUALLY HELPS HIM MORE THAN HER.

BUT I THINK THE POST AT THIS POINT, SAD TO SAY, YOU KNOW, ALVIN'S RIGHT.

THERE WAS NO QUESTION, THEY'VE BEEN NOT -- I DON'T THINK FAIR TO TISHAURA FOR A LONG TIME AND THERE WAS FOR WAY THEY WERE GOING TO ENDORSE HER.

SO I'M GUESSING SHE FUNDRAISED OFF THE -- >> YEAH, I ENJOY FEUDS BETWEEN POLITICIANS AND A NEWSPAPER AND IT'S GOOD POLITICS FOR TISHAURA JONES TO FEUD WITH THE ESTABLISHED, THE WHITE ESTABLISHMENT.

TO HER CREDIT, THOUGH, SHE STILL TALKS TO POST-DISPATCH REPORTERS AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S REALLY A BIG THING I CARE ABOUT, WHETHER SOMEBODY WANTS TO -- >> CHARLIE, CAN I SAY ONE THING ABOUT IT?

>> YEAH, LET'S MOVE ON, BUT I WAS GOING TO SAY, RAY, I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH YOU.

I DON'T THINK ENDORSEMENTS MATTER THAT MUCH.

I THINK PEOPLE FORGET THEM.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE IN THE CITY ARE LOOKING FOR DIRECTION FROM THE COUNTY AND, YOU KNOW, MEDIA ENDORSEMENTS ARE JUST NOT THAT BIG A DEAL LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN BACK WHEN, YOU KNOW, ROBERT McCORMICK WAS RUNNING THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE IN THE 1940s NRIE JUST WANT TO SAY ONE THING ABOUT THE ELECTION.

I WASES WOULD OF THE PEOPLE WHO ENDORSED THE NEW VOTING SYSTEM AND ONE OF THE CONCEPTS, THE APPROVAL VOTING WAS GOING TO DISCOURAGE NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING, AND I CAN TELL YOU FROM TALKING TO PEOPLE, THAT PART OF IT DIDN'T WORK.

>> OKAY.

>> THERE'S A LOT OF EMOTION COMING DOWN TO THE LAST TWO OR THREE WEEKS.

>> LET'S MOVE ALONG, GUYS, BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF TOPICS HERE.

ALVIN, FIVE MISSOURI TEACHERS OF THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, A TEACHER EVERY YEAR IS SELECTED AS THE BEST ONE IN MISSOURI, AND FIVE TOGETHER WROTE A LETTER TO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI SAYING THAT TEACHERS SHOULD GET QUICKER ACCESS TO THE VACCINE.

I BELIEVE THEY'RE IN A TIER THAT INCLUDES DAYCARE WORKERS AND GROCERY STORE WORKERS.

AND THE SUGGESTION IS THAT THESE TEACHERS SHOULD BE BUMPED UP A LITTLE CLOSER TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE.

WELL, THEY'VE DONE THAT IN SOME PLACES LIKE OREGON, AND THE GOVERNOR GOT SOME WIDESPREAD OUTRAGE FOR THAT.

PEOPLE ARE SAYING ON, IF A TEACHER HAS A COMORBIDITY, IF THE TEACHER IS ELDERLY FOR SURE, BUT WHY WOULD TEACHERS GET IT AHEAD OF A GROCERY STORE CLERK, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> BECAUSE THOSE STORES ARE OPEN AND THEY NEED TO GET IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE EITHER.

NOW, I'LL SAY THIS, SPEAKING, SON OF TEACHER, HUSBAND OF TEACHER, MANY TEACHING RELATIVES, I AM VERY, VERY MUCH INTO, ESPECIALLY PUBLIC EDUCATION.

BUT FORGET ALL THIS "OPEN THE SCHOOLS, OPEN THE SCHOOLS, THOSE LAZY TEACHERS, BLAH BLAH BLAH," AND ALL THAT FLACK.

IF YOU WANT SCHOOLS TO BE TOTALLY OPEN, GET EVERY TEACHER IN A SCHOOL VACCINATED ASAP AND THE RESULT WILL BE SCHOOLS WILL BE OPEN.

IF EVERY TEACH COULD GET THEIR TWO VACCINE SHOTS IN THE NEXT THREE WEEKS, AT THE TIME WHERE EVERYTHING WAS SHUTTING DOWN, YOU KNOW, BY SPRING BREAK LAST YEAR, SCHOOLS COULD BE WIDE OPEN.

SO LET'S JUST PUT IT THE WAY IT IS.

IF YOU WANT SCHOOLS TOTALLY OPEN, THE BEST AND QUICKEST WAY TO DO IT IS GET TEACHERS VACCINATED.

IT'S A SIMPLE FORMULA.

>> DR. RANDALL -- GO AHEAD, CHARLIE.

>> NO, GO AHEAD, WENDY, I'M SORRY.

>> DR. RANDALL WILLIAMS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SENIOR SERVICES, HE SAYS MID MARCH BY THE TIME THE NEXT TIER WILL BEGIN GETTING VACCINATED.

I THINK IF YOU ASK THE PARENTS OF THESE KIDS, THEY WOULD SAY LET THE TEACHERS HAVE THEIR SHOTS.

AND COMORBIDITY ISN'T ALWAYS THE BEST WAY TO PREDICT -- I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IT'S IMPORTANT, BUT I THINK FROM WHAT WE'VE ALL LEARN, THERE HAVE BEEN YOUNG HEALTHY PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED OF COVID.

I MEAN, THERE'S STILL TOO MUCH THAT WE DON'T KNOW, AND I AGREE WITH ALVIN.

IF WE WANT THE KIDS BACK IN THE CLASSROOM, WE HAVE TO -- WE CAN'T SAY, OH, YOU KNOW, TEACHER, HEY, GOOD LUCK.

I THINK WE HAVE -- >> BUT DON'T FORGET, WENDY AND ALVIN AND EVERYBODY ELSE, A LOT OF SCHOOLS ARE IN SESSION, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE AND PAROCHIAL, AND THOSE TEACHERS HAVEN'T HAD THE VACCINE YET AND THE CDC -- >> BUT THEY SHOULD -- >> THANK ON A MOMENT.

THE CDC HAS CONDUCTED STUDIES AND THEY HAVE NOT FOUNTAIN THE KIDS ARE TRANSMITTING COVID-19 TO TEACHERS.

IT'S JUST NOT HAPPENING AND THAT'S THE CDC COMING OUT WITH THIS, JUST LIKE TWO WEEKS AGO.

>> BUT CHARLIE, WHAT IS -- PEACE OF MIND IS WHAT IS STALLING THIS WHOLE THING WITH OPENING SCHOOLS.

AND THERE'S SOME PARENTS THAT DON'T WANT TO SEND THEIR KIDS BECAUSE THEY FEAR THEY'LL GET COVID-19.

THERE'S SOME PARENTS THAT WANT TO SEND THEIR KIDS BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP THINKS THEY SHOULD BE IN SCHOOL.

ELIMINATE ALL OF THAT NONSENSE, OPEN UP EVERY CLASSROOM AND IF YOU'RE IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL, A PRIVATE SCHOOL OR WHATEVER SCHOOL THAT'S BEEN OPEN THE WHOLE TIME, MORE POWER TO YOU, BUT YOUR TEACHERS SHOULD HAVE TO BE VACCINATED.

>> BUT ALVIN -- >> AND THE CDC, CHARLIEING LIKE EVERY OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY THAT'S HAD A HAND IN THIS HAS HAD ITS MISS STEPS, SO IT'S NOT LIKE I'M 100,000% SECURE IN WHATEVER THEY'RE SAYING THIS WEEK OR LAST WEEK.

>> SO THEN ARE YOU SAYING THAT TEACHERS SHOULD GO AHEAD OF DAYCARE WORKERS?

BY THE WAY, DAYCARE HAS IN SESSION AND WE HAVEN'T HEARD OF OUTBREAKS AMONG DAYCARE WORKERS, BUT SHOULD TEACHERS GO BEFORE DAYCARE WORKERS?

>> YOU'RE MAKING ARGUMENTS THAT THERE NEVER WAS A COVID OR WEAR A MASK BECAUSE A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE AIN'T DEAD.

OH, THE 500,000 THAT ARE, WELL, MOST OF THEM ARE OLD.

THIS IS NOT 1900, CHARLIE, AND THIS IS WHAT UPSETS ME.

WE ACT LIKE WE JUST GOT OFF A DARN WAGON TRAIN SOME PLACE IN AMERICA.

WE'RE TOO SMART FOR THIS, WE'RE TOO INTELLIGENT FOR THIS AND IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS.

I'M SORRY.

>> IT'S NOT RIDICULOUS.

CLAYTON SCHOOLS ARE IN SESSION.

THE KIDS ARE IN THE CLASSROOM.

IN FACT, MOST PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE.

ALMOST ALL PRIVATE AND PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS.

WHAT UNIVERSITY ARE YOU LIVING IN, ALVIN?

>> CHARLIE N CLAYTON, IT'S MIXED, VIRTUAL AND IN SESSION.

NOT ALL THE SCHOOLS.

>> I THINK ALL THE GRADE SCHOOLS ARE, RIGHT?

>> I KNOW IN HIGH SCHOOL IT'S NOT.

>> 25 STATES -- >> I'M IN FAVOR OF LETTING TEACHERS GET VACCINATED EARLY.

I MEAN, THAT'S SUCH AN ESSENTIAL ROLE IN AMERICA, TEACHING.

I MEAN, GOSH -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> WORKERS GET VACCINATED AHEADS MOST PEOPLE TOO.

>> I THINK THEY SHOULD BE VACCINATED, BUT BY NEXT FALL, HOPEFULLY.

>> OKAY, HOW ABOUT -- >> IT WILL BE AN ISSUE IN THE FALL.

>> LET'S MOVE TO WENDY FOR THE NEXT TOPIC AND THAT IS ST. PIUS IN CRYSTAL CITY HAD A BASKETBALL GAME AND THEY ALSO GOT A LOT OF BRUSHBACK BECAUSE THE FOLKS IN THE STANDS WERE NOT WEARING MASKS.

AND THE ARCHDIOCESE JUST CLAMPED DOWN ON THE SCHOOL, EVEN THOUGH THE ADMINISTRATOR WAS QUOTED IN THE PAPER, HE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ASHAMED OR EMBARRASSED OR CAUGHT OFF GUARD OR ANYTHING.

HE SAID BASICALLY HE TRIED TO DO SOCIAL DISTANCING, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?

JUST THEY WEREN'T WEARING MASKS.

NOW THEY HAVE TO IF THE ROUND BALLERS PROCEED IN THE TOURNAMENTS AN ALL THAT.

>> THE CATHOLIC SCHOOLS CERTAINLY HAVE CHANGED OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST SEVERAL GENERATIONS.

YOU HAVE A PANDEMIC AND WE'RE ALL BEING TOLD AS CITIZENS THAT IF WE WANT TO BE -- IF WE WANT TO BE GENEROUS TO OUR NEIGHBORS, IF WE WANT TO BE SELFLESS WHEN IT COMES TO OUR NEIGHBORS, THEN WE HAVE TO PRACTICE SOCIAL DISTANCING, WEAR THE MASK, DO ALL OF THE THINGS WE'RE TOLD TO DO, HAND SANITIZERS, THAT MOST OF US ARE DOING AND IT'S LIKE AT ST. PIUS, WHOO!

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I WAS CONFUSED, FRANKLY, AND REALLY DISAPPOINTED.

I THINK THIS IS NOT A GREAT MESSAGE FOR THESE KIDS TO BE TAKING OUT OF THE PANDEMIC.

>> CHARLIE, IT'S ONE OTHER THING.

NOT ONLY DOES THE VACCINE NOT CARE WHAT RELIGION YOU ARE AND NOT SEE THAT, BUT WHAT GOES ON IN ST. PIUS OR ANY OTHER PLACE LIKE THAT AFFECTS THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE.

THOSE PEOPLE DON'T JUST GO HOME TO THEIR HOMES AND SOMEHOW ARE ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD.

WHEN WE HAVE CONDUCT LIKE THIS THAT IS CLEARLY AGAINST ALL SOCIAL DISTANCING RECOMMENDATIONS OF ALL HEALTH OFFICIALS, IT IS A RISK TO THE ENTIRE REGION.

IT'S A RISK TO EVERYBODY BECAUSE WE ARE CONNECTED.

BUT YOU DON'T GET -- AND I DON'T THINK THAT RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS SHOULD HAVE ANY STRICTER RULES AGAINST THEM, ON THEM THAN ANYBODY ELSE, BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT FREEDOM.

THIS IS ABOUT PUBLIC HEALTH.

>> REAL QUICK, I'LL SAY THAT I THINK THIS IS MORE POLITICAL THAN IT IS RELIGIOUS, ATHLETIC, ANYTHING.

THAT WAS JUST A STATEMENT FOR THE WORLD TO SEE THAT WE'RE DOWN WITH THE -- >> I MIGHT AGREE WITH THAT, BUT I'LL ALSO SAY, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME PREFACE MY REMARKS BEFORE YOU ALL JUMP ON ME, AND THAT IS I EVEN WEAR A MASK HERE IN OUR HOUSE AT TIMES WHEN THE COLLEGE KIDS ARE HOME BECAUSE HEAVEN KNOWS WHERE THEY'VE BEEN, ETCETERA.

SO IF YOU COME INTO OUR HOUSE, YOU'LL FIND ALL FOUR OF US AT TIMES WEARING MASKS AND I GET A LOT OF BRUSHBACK FROM OUR KMOX LISTENING AUDIENCE FOR DOING THAT, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.

HAVING SAID THAT, I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY.

SOME OF THE PLACES WHERE WE HAVE THE STRICTEST LOCKDOWNS AND MASK REQUIREMENTS LIKE CALIFORNIA AND ILLINOIS ARE NOT DOING AS WELL WHEN IT COMES TO THE NUMBERS AS, LET'S SAY FLORIDA WHERE PEOPLE I KNOW HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM FLORIDA, NOBODY IS WEARING MASKS IN THE RESTAURANTS, NOBODY IS SOCIAL DISTANCING.

THE WAITRESSES AND WAITERS AREN'T WEARING MASKS, AND THE FUNNY THING IS, THAT'S HAPPENING LOCALLY TOO.

ST. LOUIS COUNTY HAD THE MOST DRACONIAN MEASURE AND IT'S GOT THE HIGHEST DEATHS PER 100,000 COMPARED TO ST. LOUIS CITY, JEFFERSON COUNTY, ST. CHARLES COUNTY, FRANKLIN COUNTY, ALL THAT HAD LAX MEASURES.

I'M TOLD YOU CAN GO TO ST. CHARLES, LOOK IN A RESTAURANT, NOBODY IS WEARING A MASK, BUT THEIR NUMBERS AREN'T AS BAD AS ELSEWHERE.

I UNDERSTAND MASKS ARE IMPORTANT.

I'M WITH FAUCI AND THE FOUR OF YOU ON THAT, BUT I ALSO CUT THIS SCHOOL A LITTLE BIT OF SLACK.

>> I THINK IT'S ABOUT DENSE POPULATION, OKAY?

AND THEN ALSO -- >> FLORIDA, MIAMI?

>> FLORIDA IS NOT DOING THAT GREAT.

>> BUT ALL THE CASES ARE IN MIAMI.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STATEWIDE.

GO TO MIAMI AND SEE WHAT THE DEATH RATE IS AND WHAT THE COVID RATE IS.

>> IT'S BETTER THAN CALIFORNIA.

>> OKAY, ALL RIGHT.

>> I DON'T THINK FLORIDA IS DOING THAT WELL.

>> DON'T WEAR A MASK, PACK THE GYM.

CARDINALS, HAVE OPENING DAY WITH 70,000 PEOPLE THERE.

GO ON AND DO IT.

>> EXACTLY.

>> GO AHEAD -- >> FLORIDA IS COMPARABLE TO CALIFORNIA, BUT -- >> FLORIDA IS NOT DOING WELL, SO -- >> ACCORDING TO NPR YESTERDAY -- >> I WOULDN'T BE GLIB ABOUT FLORIDA.

>> YESTERDAY NPR COMPARED THE TWO AND SAID FLORIDA AND KA ARE THE SAME, BUT IT HAS A MUCH OLDER POPULATION AND SHOULD BE MUCH WORSE OFF THAN CALIFORNIA.

>> NOT NECESSARILY.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

>> RAY, I WANT TO ASK YOU A LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT THE COUNTY COUNCIL SAYING 130 OR SO THOUSAND DOLLARS OUT OF THE BUDGET OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT AFTER ROCHELLE WALTON GRAY, THE FORMER MEMBER OF THE COUNTY COUNCIL, TOOK A JOB AS VACCINE COORDINATOR IN NORTH COUNTY.

OF COURSE, SHE LOST HER JOB IN ELECTION LAST AUGUST WHEN SHE RAN FOR RE-ELECTION, BUT SHE SUPPORTED LISA CLANCY, THE FAVORITE TO BE THE EXECUTIVE AND HER BID TO BE THE COUNTY CHAIR, AND LOOKS LIKE SHE WAS AWARDED WITH A PLUM JOB.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE COUNCIL YANKING MONEY OUT OF THE BUDGET?

>> IT WAS 122,000 AND IT WAS CALCULATED TO BE THE SALARY PLUS BENEFITS FOR ROCHELLE'S POSITION.

I THINK THE FOUR WHO VOTED WHO WR MAKING AN INTERESTING STATEMENT.

THAT WOULD BE TIM FITCH AND MARK HARDER AND SHALONDA WEBB.

THAT'S THE BREAK, THE MAIN GROUP THAT WE'VE HAD THIS BATTLE GOING ON THERE.

THEY BASICALLY SAID TO SAM PAGE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO CREATE A POSITION THAT APPEARS TO BE REWARDING ROCHELLE WALTON GRAY FOR THE VOTE, THEN YOU NEED TO FIND -- IF YOU'VE GOT THAT KIND OF MONEY LAYING AROUND THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, FIND $122,000 BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SAY THAT -- YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T TRY TO STRIKE THE LINE ITEM BECAUSE THEY CAN'T, OF PAYING HER.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INTERESTING STATEMENT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS RIGHT TO CREATE A JOB LIKE THIS AND HAVE NO ADVERTISING FOR IT.

IT WAS A JOB FOR ONE PERSON.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S HOW THE COUNTY OUGHT TO DO BUSINESS.

>> WELL, A QUESTION HERE IS, DIDN'T HE HAVE TO DO THAT ANYWAY?

I MEAN, THE MONEY -- BECAUSE THE JOB IS IN THAT DEPARTMENT, THEN HE CAN'T TAKE THE MONEY FROM, LIKE, THE ANIMAL SHELTER OR THE HIGHWAY FUND OR ANY OF THAT.

>> I THINK HE CAN TAKE IT ANYWHERE HE WANTS OUT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT AND THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING YOU FOUND $122,000 IN THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, SO YOU GOT TO CUT IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, OR CUT HER JOB.

THEY COULD ELIMINATE HER JOB OR HE COULD CUT ANOTHER $122,000 OUT OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, WHICH ISN'T A GOOD IDEA RIGHT NOW.

>> NO, THEY'RE BASICALLY TELLING HIM WHAT HE HAD TO DO ANYWAY, WHICH IS IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A POSITION THAT PAYS $122,000 IN THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, THEN THE MONEY HAS TO COME FROM THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT BUDGET, CORRECT?

>> BASICALLY.

>> SO IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THIS IS JUST SONG AND DANCE.

HE HAD TO DO THAT ANYWAY, RIGHT?

>> WELL, I THINK MARK GREY SAID -- THEY'RE JUST VERY UPSET OF WHAT HE DID AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE -- PROBLEM THEY HAD WAS WHEN HE SAID IT APPEARS LIKE HE PAID HER OF I MEAN, IT WAS JUST TO BLATANT AND WILD.

I DON'T BLAME THE COUNTY COUNCIL MEMBERS FOR SAYING WE JUST CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN.

>> THAT'S KIND OF LIKE CHARLIE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW, HE SAID IT WAS KIND OF COLD OUTSIDE.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

I MEAN, I THINK IT WAS JUST TOO OBVIOUS.

>> WELL, I'M THE ONLY ONE -- GO AHEAD.

>> NO, I'M SORRY.

>> NO, I STAND ALONE.

I STILL THINK THE POSITION IS NEEDED IN NORTH COUNTY AND GETTING THE WORD OUT ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE VACCINATION TO THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY, AND SO I STAND WITH THE 122,000 AND HOPE THAT WE CAN KEEP IT.

>> I'M MORE ON WASNENDY'S SIDE THAN I AM ON YOUR ALL'S SIDE.

>> COVETO THE RESOLUTION, SO IT COULD BE INTERESTING.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> BUT TIM FITCH THE OTHER NIGHT DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD, SO WE'LL SEE.

>> OKAY.

WELL, RAY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT AN INTERESTING WRINKLE OUT OF THE SUPREME COURT IN JEFFERSON CITY.

THIS IS A MISSOURI STATE SUPREME COURT, AND THAT IS THAT THEY HAVE KIND OF WARNED LAWYERS THAT, HEY, IF YOU'RE WORKING ON CANNABIS ISSUES, JUST REMEMBER THAT MARIJUANA IS ILLEGAL ACCORDING TO FEDERAL LAW.

THAT IN FACT, STILL TO THIS DAY, PEOPLE SOMETIMES FORGET THAT IT'S NOT LEGAL TO USE, DISTRIBUTE, POSSESS MARIJUANA.

WELL, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE SUPREME COURT, LIKE, SENDING THIS MESSAGE TO THE ATTORNEYS IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI THAT THEY HAVE TO -- IT'S KIND OF LIKE BEWARE IF YOU'RE WORKING ON THESE CASES?

>> THAT'S TERRIBLE.

FIRST OF ALL, THE STORY IN OUR PAPER WAS ABOUT A DEAR FRIEND OF US GOING BACK WAY LONGER THAN EITHER ONE OF US TO ADMIT TO COLLEGING BUT DAN HAS BEEN THE HEART AND SOUL OF MISSOURI NORMAL FOR DECADES, AND HE RAISED A GREAT POINT, WHICH IS IN 2018 IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT LEGALIZED, YOU KNOW, MEDICINAL MARIJUANA, THERE WAS A SPECIFIC PROVISION, AND THIS IS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, THAT ALLOWED FOR -- THEY ANTICIPATED THIS, SAID THAT ATTORNEYS COULD WORK WITH THE LEGAL MARIJUANA INDUSTRY.

AND IT WAS CLEAR IN THE THING AND WHAT YOU HAVE HERE, LOOK, YOU GOT FIRMS LIKE THOMPSON COLBURN, ARMSTRONG TEASDALE, THEY DIDN'T CREATE WHOLE DIVISIONS TO WORK ON THIS IF THAT WASN'T CLEAR THAT WAS THE INTENTION OF THE LAW AND BY THIS LOGIC DONNYBROOK OR ILLOGIC, THE BAD THING IS THE SUPREME COURT IS THE LAST -- YOU CAN'T APPEAL IT AND THEY HAVE MISINTERPRETED THE CONSTITUTION.

>> I THINK THEY'RE SAYING FEDERAL LAW IS SUPREME TO THE STATE LAW.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE PUT IN OUR CONSTITUTION IF IT'S ILLEGAL ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.

>> BUT COLORADO -- >> OTHER STATES THAT ALREADY HAVE IT, THEIR STATE SUPREME COURTS HAVEN'T SUDDEN I DID DECIDED TO STOP THE PARTY.

IT'S JUST LIKE MISSOURI FIGURES, WE'RE TOO POPULAR, THEY'RE TOO MANY PEOPLE MOVING HERE AND WE HAVE TOO MUCH MEMBERSHONEY, WE DON'T NEED MORE TAX MONEY, SO WE ALONE CAN COME UP WITH THIS CONCLUSION.

>> I THINK THIS IS A COVER YOUR YOU KNOW WHAT BY THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

LIKE HEY, ATTORNEYS, OH BY THE WAY, I'M AN ATTORNEY, AND I KNOW ABOUT HOURLY FEES AND ALL THAT, BUT IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY THAT HEY, WHAT YOU'RE DOING, FEDERALLY, IS ILLEGAL.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE FEDERAL LAW HAS BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

I'VE BEEN RAISING THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AND THAT IS THE FEDERAL LAW -- I DON'T KNOW HOW THE STATES GOT AWAY WITH IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> IF NOT, THERE WOULD BE DOZENS OF STATES -- >> AS YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES -- >> GLAD WE ALL VOTED ON IT.

>> SOMETIMES STATES CAN BE WRONG.

WE'VE SEEN THAT IN HISTORY, THAT'S FOR SURE.

OKAY, I WANT TO -- MAYBE WE SHOULD OWNED SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE LIGHTER AND THAT IS THE GOLF CARTS IN WEBSTER GROVES, ALVIN REID.

THIS WEEK, TOWN OFFICIALS IN WEBSTER GROVES SAID THAT IF THE SPEED LIMIT ON A STREET IS LESS THAN 25 MILES PER HOUR, BOB AND JANE JOHNSON CAN DRIVE DOWN THE STREET IN A GOLF CART AS LONG AS IT'S REGISTERED, THEY'VE GOT A DRIVER'S LICENSE, INSURANCE, SEAT BELTS, SO YOU'RE GOING DOWN A STREET IN WEBSTER GROVES IN YOUR CAR.

DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE DRIVING ALONGSIDE A GOLF CART?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THIS IS JUST A BAD IDEA.

IT'S SOMETHING BAD, YOU KNOW, WAITING TO HAPPEN.

ALSO, LISTEN, LAST TIME I LOOKED WHEN PEOPLE WERE ON GOLF CARTS, THEY MAY BE GOLFING, BUT ALCOHOL IS USUALLY INVOLVED.

YOU KNOW, NOT EVERY GOLF CART, EVERYBODY IS DRUNK, BUT IT'S ANOTHER PROBLEM AND IT'S A MOTORIZED VEHICLE SO IT'S NOT A BIKE AND IT'S NOT ANYTHING YOU PEDAL.

IT'S A MOTORIZED VEHICLE AND IT'S A BAD IDEA.

IT'S JUST A BAD IDEA.

>> I THINK IT'S DANGEROUS AND NOT JUST FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE GOLF CART, WHICH IS OBVIOUS.

IT'S DANGEROUS FOR THE REST OF US OUT DRIVING, AND GOLF CARTS, EVEN AT 25 -- IS IT 25 AND UNDER OR UNDER 25?

IF ELM AVENUE IS 25 IN WEBSTER AND THAT'S A MAIN THOROUGHFARE AND IT'S REALLY DANGEROUS TO OTHER CARS IF YOU SLAM ON THE BRAKES, IT'S NOT A GOOD THING FOR ANYBODY.

I MEAN, OTHER THAN IF YOU'RE ON A GOLF COURSE.

>> I THINK THEY'RE A LOT OF FUN AND YOU GOT TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

YOU KNOW, LET'S ALL SLOW DOWN.

IF THE SPEED LIMIT IS 20 OR 25, THEN THE LARGE VEHICLE YOU GUYS DRIVE, JUST SLOW DOWN.

>> PRETEND IT'S A BICYCLE.

I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, PRETEND IT'S A BICYCLE FOR FOUR PEOPLE.

>> RIGHT.

>> OR SIX PEOPLE OR -- I'M ALL RIGHT WITH IT UNTIL SOMEBODY GETS HURT AND THEN I'LL BE VIOLENTLY OPPOSED TO IT.

>> WELL, OKAY.

IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, IF SOMEBODY MAKES A MISTAKE IN A CAR AND THEY PULL -- MAKE A LEFT TURN RIGHT IF FRONT OF YOU, THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO, YOU HIT THAT CAR.

YOU GET OUT, YOU SAY, LIKE, MAN, YOU KNOW, OUR CARS ARE DAMAGED.

IF THIS HAPPENS, NO FAULT OF THE DRIVER AND THEY RUN INTO ONE OR TWO PEOPLE ON A GOLF CART, THEIR LIVES ARE CHANGED FOREVER.

AND IT'S JUST NOT A GOOD IDEA.

>> YOU GUYS DON'T LIKE CROWDS AT BASKETBALL GAMES.

WHAT ELSE DON'T YOU LIKE?

>> OH, YOU'RE RIGHT.

WE'RE -- >> MARIJUANA, YOU'RE HAPPY.

>> IT'S A PANDEMIC, GO CRAZY FOLKS.

>> BUT IF YOU'RE SMOKING MARIJUANA ON THE GOLF CART ON THE WAY TO THE CROWDED STADIUM, THEN YOU DON'T GET A TICKET AT ALL.

>> WHY ARE YOU WEARING A MASK?

>> RIGHT.

>> I'M TAKING THIS CRAZY LIBERAL VIEW THAT I DO NOT WANT TO BE PUT IN A POSITION OF KILLING SOMEBODY ON A GOLF CART.

>> I THINK WENDY BRINGS UP A GREAT POIND.

YOU'RE AGAINST BIKES ON THE ROADS TOO?

>> BUT USUALLY THERE'S ONE OPERATOR.

THERE'S NOT A MOTOR INVOLVED ON A BIKE.

>> IT'S NOT THE SAME AT ALL.

A GOLF CART IS GOING TO, BY DEFINITION, HAVE TO TAKE THE SPACE OF A CAR, OKAY?

YOU CAN'T DRIVE A GOLF CART WHERE YOU CAN RIDE A BICYCLE.

NO, I THINK IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA AND IT'S DANGEROUS, BUT EVERYBODY -- AND WHAT'S THE UPSIDE AGAIN?

I MEAN, NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT SOME LITTLE -- >> FUN.

IT'S FUN.

IT ADDS A LITTLE JOY TO AN OTHERWISE BLEAK EXISTENCE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK HERE AND WLEEN WE COME BACK, WE'LL BE TALKING TO BLAKE STRODE, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ARCH CITY DEFENDERS.

HE'S LOOKING INTO THE CITY JAIL AND OTHER ISSUES.

WE HOPE YOU JOIN US, JUST A MOMENT AWAY RIGHT HERE ON NINE PBS.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEXT UP.

BEFORE WE WELCOME OUR DISTINGUISH GUEST, I WANT TO REMIND FOLKS THAT THIS TUESDAY AT 1:00 ON NINE PBS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A VIRTUAL DISCUSSION OF THE MAYORAL CANDIDATES IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

WE HOPE YOU JOIN US.

FOR DETAILS, GO TO KETC.ORG.

WELL, THE JAILS HAVE REALLY BEEN IN THE NEWS RECENTLY.

THE MEDIUM SECURITY WORKHOUSE AS WELL AS THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER, AND SO WE'RE VERY PLEASED TO WELCOME THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ARCH CITY DEFENDERS, BLAKE STRODE, TO NEXT UP.

MR. STRODE, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M DOING WELL.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING OUT OF THE CONDITIONS OF THE INCARCERATED INMATES, THE RESIDENTS, AND THIS PAST WEEK AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU GOT THE GO-AHEAD FROM A FEDERAL JUDGE TO TAKE THE TEMPERATURE AT LITERALLY INSIDE THE CITY JAIL.

AND SO I THINK YOU SPENT ABOUT AN HOUR IN THERE GETTING TEMPERATURES BECAUSE THERE WERE ALLEGATIONS BY SOME INMATES AND THEIR FAMILIES THAT THE CONDITIONS WERE EITHER TOO COLD OR TOO HOT.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> YEAH, JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS WAS IN THE WORKHOUSE.

OF COURSE, TWO CITY JAILS, THE JUSTICE CENTER AND THE WORKHOUSE WAS PART OF OUR ONGOING SINCE 2017 LITIGATION ON JAIL CONDITIONS IN THE WORKHOUSE.

THAT'S WHAT WE WERE GIVEN ACCESS TO THIS PAST TUESDAY, SENT TWO STAFF MEMBERS IN AND WERE VERY GLAD THAT AT THAT TIME, THE RECORDINGS WERE CERTAINLY IN A LIVEABLE RANGE.

I DON'T HAVE IT IN FRONT OF ME, BUT SOMEWHERE AROUND 70 DEGREES IN THE SPACES THAT THEY WERE GIVEN ACCESS TO ON TUESDAY MORNING.

>> AND JUST TO CLARIFY, IN STRODE, YOU DID NOT GET INTO THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS?

>> NO, NO.

WE HAVE NOT.

IF WE, ALONG WITH A FEW OTHER LEGAL ADVOCACY ORGANIZATIONS IN THE REGION, REQUESTED THAT LAST WEEK AND WERE TOLD THAT WE WOULD NOT BE GIVEN ACCESS.

I THINK CONSISTENT WITH WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN TOLD SINCE THE UPRISING OCCURRED.

>> YOU WROTE A GREAT PIECE IN THE AMERICAN IN WHICH YOU SORT OF OUTLINED THE HISTORY, AND YOU TAKE US BACK TO MICHAEL BROWN AND THE -- REALLY THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION THAT SPRANG UP AS A RESULT OF HIS DEATH WHEN IT CAME TO POLICE REFORM AND THAT KIND OF THING.

AND YOU -- YOU SORT OF POINT OUT VERY CLEARLY THE MISSTEPS AND THE CONTRADICTIONS.

WHAT'S BEHIND THE LACK OF WILL TO REALLY CHANGE THINGS, MR. STRODE?

>> YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT QUESTION.

ONE OF THE POINTS THAT I MADE IN THAT PIECE IS THAT I THINK WE DO A REALLY POOR JOB OF LISTENING TO IMPACTED PEOPLE AND THE MORE VULNERABLE, THE MORE MARGINALIZED PEOPLE ARE, THE WORSE WE REALLY ARE AT LISTENING TO THEM.

AND THERE'S NO GREATER EXAMPLE THAN THE FOLKS WHO ARE DETAINED IN OUR JAILS.

WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM WEEKS AND REALLY FOR MONTHS, BUT MORE LOUDLY FOR WEEKS ABOUT ESCALATING FRUSTRATION AND DESPERATION IN THE JAIL, THE CONDITIONS IN THE JAIL, MISTREATMENT BY GUARDS, AND WE'VE REALLY DONE OUR BEST TO TRY TO INFORM PEOPLE ABOUT THIS, TO RAISE AS MUCH AWARENESS AS POSSIBLE, BUT IT TOOK WINDOWS BEING BROKEN OUT AND, YOU KNOW, THIS VERY HIGH PROFILE UPRISING TO MAKE ANY SORT OF MORE SIGNIFICANT INQUIRY, TO HAVE MEDIA REALLY DIGGING INTO IT, TO HAVE PEOPLE WRITING LETTERS AND OTHER PROTESTS OCCUR.

WE JUST HAVE TO GET BETTER AT LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TYPICALLY SILENCED, TYPICALLY MARGINALIZED, TYPICALLY IGNORED, AND THAT IS POOR PEOPLE IN THIS REGION, BLACK COMMUNITIES IN THIS REGION, AND THOSE WHO ARE TRAPPED IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT REALLY IS THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEMS THAT WE CONTINUE TO FACE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> BILL.

>> YEAH, BLAKE, LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT A POINT THAT'S CONFUSED ME.

I KNOW THE BIG PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE AND IT'S MADE GREAT STEAM AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WHEN THERE'S TROUBLE IN THE NEW CITY JAIL, IN THE JUSTICE CENTER, WE'RE TOLD, WELL, THE MEDIUM SECURITY PRISON, THE WORKHOUSE IS A BETTER PLACE BECAUSE IT'S MORE SECURE AND THERE'S CROWDING IN THIS JUSTICE CENTER.

WHY -- HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THE NEED THEN TO CLOSE DOWN THE WORKHOUSE BECAUSE IT CONFUSES ME?

>> WELL, I SHARE YOUR CONFUSION ABOUT HOW THE JAILS ARE CHARACTERIZED BECAUSE FOR YEARS, AS WE'VE BEEN CALLING TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE, WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THE JUSTICE CENTER IS THE MORE SECURE FACILITY FOR THE MORE SERIOUS OFFENDERS.

AND THAT IT WOULD BE DISRUPTIVE TO THAT HIGH SECURITY JAIL TO PUT MORE PEOPLE IN IT, AND NOW WHEN YOU HAVE THIS UPRISING IN THE JUSTICE CENTER, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE TOLD THE LOCKS DON'T WORK AND ACTUALLY THE WORKHOUSE IS THE MORE SECURE FACILITY.

SO I THINK THERE'S A REAL CONSISTENCY AND CREDIBILITY PROBLEM WITH THE CITY OFFICIALS IN CHARGE OF OUR JAILS.

AND I THINK THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE EFFORTS TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE, WHICH OF COURSE WE'VE BEEN A CORE PART OF WITH ACTION ST. LOUIS AND THE BAIL PROJECT AND MANY OTHERS.

THERE'S SOUTHWESTERLY A CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT -- CERTAINLY A CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT WE'VE BEEN CALLING FOR IN THAT CAMPAIGN AND RELATED LEGISLATION AND THE ISSUES WE SEE COMING TO A HEAD IN THE JUSTICE CENTER.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT IS SITTING IN THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN RIGHT NOW, BOARD BILL 167, THAT WOULD HAVE PUT MORE MONEY INTO CJC, TO DO MORE COVID TESTING AND TREATMENT AND STRENGTHEN PROTOCOLS, WOULD PUT MORE STAFF IN CJC TO THE EXTENT WE'RE NOW HEARING THE JUSTICE CENTER IS UNDERSTAFFED, WOULD HAVE PROVIDED FOR A NEW DIVISION IN THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT TO SEND PEOPLE INTO THE JAIL TO IDENTIFY FOLKS THAT DON'T NEED TO BE THERE AND ACTUALLY NEED SERVICES AND CAN BE RELEASED, AND MANY OF THE SAME PEOPLE THAT ARE NOW TELLING US EVERYTHING'S FINE IN THE JAIL KILLED THAT BILL, KEPT THAT BILL FROM MOVING FORWARD JUST IN THE PAST MONTH.

SO I THINK THERE'S A REAL DISCONNECT BETWEEN A LOT OF RHETORIC THAT WE'RE HEARING FROM CITY OFFICIALS ON THIS SUBJECT AND I'M GLAD PEOPLE ARE FINALLY ASKING THESE QUESTIONS.

>> IT'S A TIME TO CHANGE, BLAKE, SO ST. LOUIS IS ABOUT TO CHANGE MAYORS AND IT'S UNUSUAL THAT YOU ONLY HAVE A ONE-TERM MAYOR, BUT LYDA KREWSON DECIDED NOT TO RUN AGAIN.

IN YOUR PIECE, I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON WENDY, IT WAS EXCELLENTLY DONE.

I'M VERY, VERY -- EVERYBODY EXCEPT FOR BILL, BILL CAN WRITE HIS COLUMN THE WAY HE WANTS TO, BUT I WISH MORE ACTUALLY WERE SUCCINCT -- >> I READ IT, TOO, BLAKE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY GOOD.

>> IT'S NOT LIKE YOU PICK A FAVORITE, BUT YOU KIND OF LIT LEWIS REED UP IN IT WHEN YOU'RE GOING THROUGH YOUR CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF THINGS.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

AND THEN ALSO, PERSONALLY OR AS AN ORGANIZATION, ARE YOU ENDORSING A CANDIDATE IN THE MAYOR'S PRIMARY?

>> SURE.

WELL, I CAN BE VERY CLEAR THAT ARCH CITY DEFENDER IS A 501(c)(3), WE DO NOT ENDORSE CANDIDATES, ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO, AND WOULD BE IN BIG TROUBLE IF WE DID.

WE DON'T ENGAGE IN ANY PARTISAN ACTIVITY LIKE THAT.

WHAT I POINTED TO IN THE PIECE THAT IS LEWIS REED HAS BEEN ALL OVER THE PLACE ON THE ISSUE OF CLOSING THE WORKHOUSE AND HAS SUDDENLY BECOME VERY VOCAL ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT CANNOT CLOSE, SHOULD NOT CLOSE.

HE'S POINTED TO COVID AS THE REASON THAT WE CAN'T CLOSE IT, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASSED THE BY IN THE MIDST OF COVID THAT WOULD HAVE DONE JUST THAT.

SO I THINK THAT HE HAS A LOT OF EXPLAINING TO DO ON WHY HE'S BEEN ALL OVER THIS ISSUE.

MY ISSUE WITH HIM IS THAT HE'S BEEN COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT.

I THINK THAT HE'S MAKING DECISIONS THAT ARE HARMFUL FOR THE PEOPLE WE SERVE AND REPRESENT AND THAT REALLY DO A DISSERVICE TO EVERYONE IN ST. LOUIS WHO DESERVES TO SEE OUR TAX DOLLARS SPENT MORE EFFECTIVELY.

SO THAT REALLY IS WHY I POINTED TO LEWIS REED IN THAT PIECE.

BUT ARCH CITY DEFENDERS WILL BE MAKING NO ENDORSEMENT.

IN THE PAST I HAVE ONLY ONCE OR MAYBE TWICE INDIVIDUALLY SIGNED ON TO SOME ENDORSEMENTS.

I HAVE NOT YET TON THAT THIS YEAR.

>> DID THEY WIN?

>> ONE DID.

>> BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE SPOTTY RECORDS ON THAT.

>> YES, SO -- YEAH, SURE.

>> RAY.

>> BLAKE, NOW THAT THE DUST HAS SETTLED A LITTLE SINCE THE JAIL UPRISING, ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT WE ALL LEARNED THAT THE -- THEY DIDN'T THINK ABOUT HAVING CELLS WITH LOCKS ON THEM THAT WORK, DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER THOUGHTS OR INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT CAUSED THIS AND, AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE AT THE DOWNTOWN JAIL SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN?

TO FIX THE CONDITIONS.

>> SURE.

SO CERTAINLY WHAT CAUSED THIS WAS POOR TREATMENT AND POOR CONDITIONS IN THE JAIL.

AGAIN, STARTING AT THE END OF DECEMBER AND THROUGHOUT THE MONTH OF JANUARY INTO FEBRUARY, WE INITIALLY STARTED HEARING FROM PEOPLE REAL CONCERNS ABOUT A LACK OF COVID PROTOCOLS IN THE JAIL AND THAT PEOPLE WHO EITHER HAD TESTED POSITIVE OR WERE SHOWING SYMPTOMS WERE BEING HOUSED IN THE SAME UNITS WITH NO SEPARATION AS PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT SICK AND HAD NOT TESTED POSITIVE.

AND WE DIDN'T HEAR THIS FROM ONE PERSON.

WE HEARD IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HEARING FROM THE CITY THAT THERE WERE NO COVID CASES IN THE JAIL, WHICH WE NOW KNOW TO BE COMPLETELY UNTRUE.

SO I THINK THAT REALLY WAS THE SPARK.

THERE WERE OTHER CONDITIONS RELATED TO THE QUALITY OF THE FOOD, VERY COLD TEMPERATURES.

AGAIN, RETALIATION FOR PEOPLE THAT WERE MAKING THESE KINDS OF COMPLAINT, THAT'S BEEN A REAL THEME, AND THIS WAS A SERIES PROVE TESTS.

THE FIRST INCIDENT THAT WE'RE AWARE OF, PEOPLE REFUSED TO RETURN TO THEIR CELLS.

THEY DIDN'T TAKE ANY ACTION, DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE.

THEY SAT OUTSIDE THEIR CELLS AND DIDN'T GO INSIDE.

MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE THEN MOVED TO SEGREGATION OR MOVED TO THE WORKHOUSE.

YOU SAW ON THIS MOST RECENT PROTEST A SIGN THAT SOME OF THE FOLKS WERE CARRYING, FREE 57.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE A REFERENCE TO THE 57 PEOPLE WHO WERE MOVED AFTER THE LAST DISPLAY OF PROTEST.

SO I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN ACTUALLY FROM PEOPLE IN THE JAIL ARE INCREASINGLY DESPERATE ACTS TO GET THE ATTENTION OF PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE AND TRY TO BRING MORE ATTENTION TO THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY'RE FACING.

TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO DO, I THINK THERE ARE A FEW THINGS.

ONE IS WE HAVE, AND THIS ISN'T A NEW PROBLEM.

WE HAVE AND HAVE HAD FOR SOME TIME A PRETRIAL DETENTION CRISIS IN THERE REGION.

IT'S TRUE IN ST. LOUIS CITY, TRUE IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, TRUE IN ST. CHARLES COUNTY, TRUE THROUGHOUT THE REGION THAT WE ARE HOUSING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN OUR JAILS PRETRIAL, MANY OF THEM ON CASH BAILS THAT THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY, SOME OF THEM ON NO BOND ORDERS.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THEM HAVE NOT HAD THEIR DAY IN COURT, TO THE BEEN CONVICTED OF ANYTHING, AND THEY ARE SITTING THERE FOR MONTHS OR SOMETIMES YEARS WITHOUT EVER HAVING ANY SORT OF CONVICTION OR GETTING THEIR DAY IN COURT.

THAT REALLY IS AN A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER, WE SHOULD ALL BE OUTRAGED ABOUT THAT AND WE SHOULD BE DEMANDING THAT WE ACTUALLY EMBRACE PRETRIAL RELEASE AS THE NORM AND DETENTION SHOULD BE THE EXTREME EXCEPTION.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND FOR POOR PEOPLE IN THIS REGION.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, THE REASON WE'VE BEEN PUSHING TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE FOR FOUR YEARS NOW IS BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE MONEY THAT WE ARE SINKING INTO THIS PRETRIAL DETENTION SYSTEM, THIS SYSTEM OF MASS INCARCERATION, IS PREVENTING US FROM ADDRESSING THE UPSTREAM CAUSES OF INCARCERATION.

IF WE ACTUALLY WERE PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO COMMUNITY RESOURCES AND MENTAL HEALTH AND JOB TRAINING AND EDUCATION, WHICH WE CAN DO, WHICH WE HAVE THE MONEY TO DO, THEN WE CERTAINLY WOULDN'T NEED TO BE CAGING PEOPLE AT THE RATE THAT WE ARE.

AND WE ARE AN ABOLITIONIST ORGANIZATION, WE THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO GET TO A POINT WHERE WE DON'T HAVE TO CAGE PEOPLE TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEM, BUT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO AGREE AS A FIRST STEP THAT WE ARE SPENDING WAY, WAY, WAY TOO MUCH OF OUR MONEY ON THAT RIGHT NOW AND NEED TO DO MUCH LESS.

>> MR. STRODE, TALKING ABOUT THAT MEDIUM SECURITY WORKHOUSE, IF YOU CLOSE IT DOWN, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE RESIDENTS WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER, BUT IT WOULD BE SO CROWDED, THEY WOULD BE BASICALLY LIVING ON TOP OF EACH OTHER, SO THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD BE TO SEND THEM TO NEIGHBORING INCARCERATION FACILITIES, BUT WE UNDERSTAND THERE'S NO ROOM AT THE INN LOCALLY AND ACCORDING TO PUBLISHED REPORTS, THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY IN THE CITY JAIL WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE TENNESSEE BORDER FOUR AND A HALF, FIVE HOURS AWAY, WHICH WOULD BE REALLY INCONVENIENT FOR THEIR ATTORNEYS AND MAYBE FAMILY MEMBERS FOR VISITS.

SO ISN'T THAT A REAL PROBLEM WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CLOSING THE WORKHOUSE?

>> YEAH, I SORT OF REFERRED TO THAT BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH DISHONEST FEAR MONGERING FROM SOME OF OUR CITY OFFICIALS.

NO ONE IS CALLING FOR SENDING PEOPLE FOUR HOURS AWAY TO A JAIL IN KENTUCKY.

IN FACT, MY READING OF STATE LAW SAYS THAT THAT WOULDN'T EVEN BE LEGAL TO DO.

WE COULDN'T DO THAT IF WE WANTED TO AND CERTAINLY THAT'S NOT THE AIM OF THIS CAMPAIGN.

IT IS NOT TRUE THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ROOM IN OUR LOCAL JAILS, IN OUR CITY JAILS, TO HOUSE THE JAIL POPULATION THAT EXISTS IN THE CITY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN POINTING OUT FOR MANY MONTHS IS THAT THE CITY VOLUNTARILY HOUSES FEDERAL DETAINEES FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IT DOES NOT ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE.

NOW, WHY THEY DO THAT, YOU HAVE TO BRING ON JIMMIE EDWARDS AND LYDA KREWSON AND ASK WHY THEY CONTINUE TO HOLD 200 PEOPLE AT THE LAST ESTIMATE WE HEARD FROM DALE GLASS LAST WEEK IN THE TASK FORCE MEETING, HE SAID IT WAS ABOUT 200 FEDERAL DETAINEES.

VERY RECENTLY, I THINK THIS IS STILL TRUE, BUT IN MY MOST RECENT COUNT, THERE WEREN'T 200 PEOPLE IN THE WORKHOUSE.

SO WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING FOR MONTHS IS YOU COULD STOP HOUSING A FRACTION OF THE FEDERAL DETAINEES, WHO WOULD BE HOUSED IN OTHER LOCAL JAILS, THE COUNTY, MUNICIPAL JAILS, JEFFERSON COUNTY, ST. CHARLES, ETCETERA, THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE HOUSED IN THE CITY, AND FIT ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT THE COURT HAS ORDERED TO BE DETAINED PRETRIAL IN THE JUSTICE CENTER.

THAT WAS TRUE A FEW MONTHS AGO, IT'S STILL TRUE NOW.

BUT I WOULD REPEAT THAT THE JAIL POPULATION IS STILL TOO HIGH.

EVEN WITH THE TOO HIGH POPULATION, WE ACTUALLY COULD ACCOMMODATE THAT IN ONE JAIL, BUT IT'S STILL TOO HIGH AND WE REALLY NEED TO FIND WAYS, WHICH IS WHAT THIS DIVISION OF SUPPORTIVE RE-ENTRY WAS ALL ABOUT.

IT'S WHAT OUR BAIL LITIGATION AND OUR ADVOCACY AROUND CASH BAIL IS ALL ABOUT.

WE HAVE TO TAKE STEPS TO REDUCE OUR JAIL POPULATION OVERALL.

PRETRIAL DETENTION HAS BECOME SUCH A -- SUCH SECOND NATURE IN ST. LOUIS, THAT WE ASSUME IT'S THE ONLY OPTION.

IT IS NOT AND WE NEED TO REDUCE OUR JAIL POPULATION AND WE CAN CERTAINLY FIT EVERYONE IN ONE JAIL.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO THE PROBLEM IN THIS REGION, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S SPECIFIC, WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, TO THIS REGION, MR. STRODE, IS THERE A CITY -- I MEAN, ARCH CITY DEFENDERS IS PART OF A NETWORK.

YOU'RE CONSTANTLY SHARING INFORMATION.

IS THERE A CITY THAT'S GETTING THIS DONE THE RIGHT WAY?

>> YEAH, IT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD SAY THIS IS SOLELY A REGIONAL PROBLEM.

I THINK IT IS REFLECTIVE OF A NATIONAL PROBLEM, BUT THERE ARE PLACES THAT ARE DOING BETTER AND WORSE.

SO JUST TO GIVE YOU A FEW EXAMPLES, WHEN WE FIRST FILED OUR FEDERAL BAIL LITIGATION BACK IN JANUARY OF 2019, ONE OF THE STATS THAT WE POINTED TO IS THAT ONLY ABOUT 4% OF PEOPLE IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AT THAT TIME WERE BEING RELEASED ON THEIR OWN RECOGNIZANCE.

MEANING NOT HAVING TO PUT UP ANY SORT OF COLLATERAL OR MONEY TO BE RELEASED.

THAT NUMBER COMPARED TO 40%, 60%, AND 80% IN NEW YORK, PHILADELPHIA, AND WASHINGTON, D.C., RESPECTIVELY.

SO IN SOME WAYS, WE ARE AT THE EXTREME, HAVE BEEN AT THE EXTREME IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE DETAINING PRETRIAL.

AND THAT'S WHY I KEEP POINTING TO THAT SYSTEM, POINTING TO THE WHAT I THAT BAIL OPERATES IN THIS REGION AS ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS.

NOW, IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE HELD ON CASH BAIL HAS COME DOWN AND WHAT'S GONE ON UP SIGNIFICANTLY IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE DETAINED, PREVENTATIVELY DETAINED WITH NO BOND AT ALL, AND MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME UNCONSTITUTIONAL BAIL PROCEEDINGS AS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GETTING THESE UNCONSTITUTIONALLY HIGH CASH BALES.

SO IT'S A PERSISTENT ISSUE.

IT'S BEEN THE CASE FOR MANY YEARS.

THAT'S WHY WE CONTINUE TO LIT LITIGATE THIS QUESTION AROUND BAIL, BUT THERE ARE MANY PLACES WE CAN LOOK TO THAT HAVE DIFFERENT BAIL PROCESSES AND DIFFERENT BAIL OUTCOMES THAN ST. LOUIS THAT WOULD REALLY CHANGE THE OVERALL JAIL POPULATION HERE.

>> WELL, BLAKE, I'M SURE IF WE HAD A PROSECUTOR OR A POLICE OFFICER ON, THEY'D SAY WE HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM GETTING WITNESSES TO TESTIFY AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE HAVE SUCH A LOW CONVICTION RATE AND THINGS GO ON.

IF WE DON'T DETAIN PEOPLE AFTER THEY'RE ARRESTED, IF WE LEAVE THEM RIGHT OUT, ISN'T THAT GOING TO FRIGHTEN WITNESSES EVEN MORE?

>> SO -- WELL, ONE THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT KIM GARDNER ACTUALLY IN THE CITY, WHEN WE FIRST FILED THE BAIL LITIGATION AND WERE DOING A LOT OF ADVOCACY AROUND THE WAY THE BAIL OPERATES IN THE CITY TO DETAIN HUNDREDS OF POOR PEOPLE UNNECESSARILY, SHE ACTUALLY HAD PUT OUT SOME PUBLIC STATEMENTS, PUT FORTH POLICIES VERY MUCH AGREEING WITH -- AGREEING THAT WE HAVE A MAJOR PRETRIAL DETENTION PROBLEM IN ST. LOUIS.

NOW, AS I SAID TO HER, AS I SAID TO OTHER PEOPLE, I THINK SHE AND HER OFFICE CAN AND SHOULD DO MUCH MORE AND WE ADVOCATE WITH HER OFFICE, WITH WESLEY BELL'S OFFICE TO TAKE MORE AGGRESSIVE STEPS THAN THEY'VE TAKEN, BUT I'M NOT SURE WE WOULD GET DISAGREEMENT FROM THEM ON THE POINT THAT WE HAVE A MAJOR PRETRIAL DETENTION PROBLEM IN THIS REGION.

I THINK YOU'RE POINTING TO SOMETHING BIGGER WHEN YOU START ASKING ABOUT WITNESSES AND THE UNWILLINGNESS OF PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD AND PARTICIPATE IN THESE PROCESSES, AND THAT IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF DOUBT AND COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE AND JUSTIFIED DOUBT THAT THE SYSTEM WILL SERVE THE INTERESTS OF PEOPLE IMPACTED BY CRIME.

IT HAS NOT, IT DOES NOT, IT WILL NOT.

AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHY WE'RE CALLING FOR DIVESTING FROM THAT SYSTEM AND INVESTING IN NEW SYSTEMS OF SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE, NEW SYSTEMS OF ACCOUNTABILITY, NEW SYSTEMS OF REPAIR FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE IMPACTED BY HARM.

WE CAN DO A MUCH BETTER JOB OF SUPPORTING PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN HARMED THAN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM CAN DO.

>> OKAY.

>> WELL, BLAKE, I'M GOING TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE, OKAY?

I'LL TRY TO PHRASE THIS IN THE WAY OF A QUESTION.

I THINK THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IMPACTED BY CRIME WANT TO SEE THE PERSON WHO DID IT OR PERSONS WHO DID IT BE IN JAIL, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT KIND OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE PEOPLE, THESE FOLKS ONCE THEY'RE IN JAIL.

AND I KIND OF COUNTERED, YOU WERE SAYING YOU COULD FORESEE A TIME WHERE NOBODY WAS INCARCERATED.

I DON'T FORESEE THAT TIME BECAUSE THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE IN JAIL.

THE ENERGY -- AND IT'S YOUR JOB I UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE ENERGY AND THE FOCUS THAT YOU'RE BRINGING TO ME, I THINK THE MAJORITY OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION SAYS, LIKE, I WISH SOMEBODY WOULD FIND THAT ENERGY AND THAT FOCUS TO HELP YOUNG BLACK PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IN JAIL AND HAVEN'T COMMITTED A CRIME AND ARE LIVING THEIR LIFE AS CLOSE AS THEY CAN IN LAW-ABIDING WAYS.

SO I THINK THERE'S A -- DO YOU FEEL THAT?

I MEAN, BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU KIND OF FEEL LIKE THE MAJORITY OF FOLKS REALLY, REALLY, REALLY CARE AND I JUST THINK THAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DON'T CARE AS MUCH AS YOU DO.

>> WELL, YOU SAID A LOT THERE, SO LET ME TRY TO FOR BACK TO SOME OF IT.

I THINK IT IS UNDOUBTEDLY TRUE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING IN REALLY DESPERATE SITUATIONS, WHO SIMPLY WANT TO BE SAFE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

THEY WANT PEOPLE TO RESPOND WHEN THEY FEEL UNTHREAT.

THEY WANT ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN HARM IS DONE.

AND THEY WANT REPAIR FOR THAT HARM.

THERE'S NO QUESTION, PEOPLE WANT THAT.

IT IS A FALSE CHOICE TO SUGGEST THAT THE ONLY WAY OF ACHIEVING THAT IS BY INCARCERATING PEOPLE AND PARTICULARLY INCARCERATING THEM AT THE LEVEL THAT WE DO.

IN FACT, HARM OCCURS AT REALLY STARTLING RATES IN MANY COMMUNITIES ALL THE TIME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM IS IT'S NOT CAPTURING WRONGDOERS, IT'S NOT CAPTURING PEOPLE THAT ARE COMMITTING WRONGFUL ACTS OR HARMFUL ACTS INDISCRIMINATELY.

IT IS TARGETING CERTAIN COMMUNITIES, IT IS TARGETING POOR COMMUNITIES, IT'S TARGETING COMMUNITY OF COLOR.

IT IS CRIMINALIZING CERTAIN ACTIVITIES ONLY IN SOME NEIGHBORHOODS AND NOT IN OTHERS.

THAT HAS BEEN TRUE FOR THE FULL STRETCH OF THE HISTORY OF THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM, AND IT'S TRUE NOW.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHAT PEOPLE WANT, WHICH IS TO FEEL SAFE, WHICH IS TO FEEL SUPPORTED, WHICH IS TO FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE SOMEONE TO CALL WHEN THEY FEEL UNDER THREAT.

ABSOLUTELY.

YOU'LL GET NO ARGUMENT FROM ME ABOUT THAT.

BUT OUR CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM'S NOT ACTUALLY DOING THAT AND IT'S NOT EVEN CAPTURING ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING HARM.

WE KNOW THAT THERE'S ONLY A SMALL SLICE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY CHARGED OR ARRESTED AT ALL, SMALLER SLICE THAT ARE CONVICTED, SO IT'S NOT AS IF WE'RE DOING A GOOD JOB OF ACCOUNTABILITY FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE COMMITTING ACTS OF HARM.

SO WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IS NOT ACTUALLY INTENTION WITH THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE ZESIVE JUSTICE.

IT IS PRE -- DESERVE JUSTICE.

IT IS PRECISELY TRYING TO GET JUSTICE FOR PEOPLE AND ACKNOWLEDGE WILL THAT THE WAY WE'RE GOING ABOUT IT NOW IS FAILING BY EVERY METRIC.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AN ABOLITIONIST TO KNOW THAT OUR CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM IS NOT GETTING THE JOB DONE GOO BLAKE, THERE'S A TAB ON YOUR WEBSITE CALLED FATAL STATE VIOLENCE.

I KNOW YOUR ORGANIZATION IS INVOLVED ON THE ISSUE OF DEATHS IN JAIL AND DEATHS AT THE HANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS BASICALLY.

WHEN THAT ISN'T IN THE NEWS AS IT WAS OBVIOUSLY WITH TRAGEDIES SUCH AS GEORGE FLOYD, ETCETERA, BREONNA TAYLOR, WHATEVER.

IS THAT AN ONGOING THING OR DO YOU GET -- IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE MOMENTUM AGAINST THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM SORT OF SUBSIDED AFTER LAST SUMMER.

SPEAK TO THAT AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING ABOUT THAT ISSUE.

>> YEAH, WELL, IT CERTAINLY HAS NOT SUBSIDED WITH US OR THE PEOPLE THAT WE WORK WITH, AND ST. LOUIS IS GROUND ZERO FOR THIS PROBLEM OF FATAL STATE VIOLENCE.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE POINT OUT IN THE REPORT THAT WAS RELEASED, AND I APPRECIATE YOU POINTING OUT PEOPLE CAN FIND IT ON OUR WEBSITE.

I HOPE THEY GO THERE AND READ IT AND LEARN MORE.

ST. LOUIS IS NUMBER ONE IN POLICE KILLINGS PER CAPITA OF ANY MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREA IN THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT'S BEEN TRUE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

WE DOCUMENTED IN A TEN-YEAR SPAN BETWEEN 2009 AND 2019 147 INCIDENTS OF FATAL STATE VIOLENCE AND WE INCLUDED IN THAT, A MAJORITY ARE POLICE KILLINGS AND SOME SUBSET ARE FOLKS WHO LOST THEIR LIVES WHILE IF -- WHILE IN LOCAL JAILS.

THAT'S 147 FAMILIES AND WE KNOW BY THE WAY, WE DIDN'T CATCH EVERYTHING.

WE SENT SUNSHINE REQUESTS, DID MEDIA RESEARCH, DID EVERYTHING WE COULD AND WE KNOW WE DIDN'T CAPTURE EVERYTHING.

THAT'S 147 FAMILIES WHO DON'T HAVE THEIR LOVED ONES TODAY.

THAT'S 147 BROTHERS, SISTERS, COUSINS, MOTHERS.

PEOPLE ARE CARRYING THE SCARS OF THAT IN OUR COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW TODAY.

WE CAN TRAGICALLY PREDICT EVERY YEAR A CERTAIN NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WILL BE KILLED BY POLICE OR DIE IN JAIL.

IT'S BEEN LIKE CLOCKWORK.

I MEAN, THIS IS A REALLY HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE SUPERLATIVE FOR ST. LOUIS THAT HAS BEEN TRUE FOR TOO MANY YEARS.

AND SO WE WERE GLAD TO RELEASE THAT REPORT.

WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO BOTH WORK AROUND IT, LEGAL WORK SUPPORTING THE FAMILIES BECAUSE PART OF WHAT BROUGHT THIS PROJECT ABOUT IS IN WORKING WITH FAMILIES, WE'VE SEEN THE WAY IN WHICH AFTER SOMEONE IS KILLED BY POLICE, THEY CAN'T GET ANY INFORMATION.

THE CULTURE OF POLICING IMMEDIATELY CLOSES RANK, DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION, DOESN'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.

OFTENTIMES, PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN GET ACCESS TO THE BODIES OF THEIR LOVED ONES TO HAVE A FUNERAL.

THERE'S NO SUPPORT TO HELP AFFORD THE FUNERAL COSTS.

WE'VE HAD PEOPLE FOR MONTHS SAYING I JUST WANT TO BURY MY CHILD AND THEY CAN'T EVEN DO THAT.

SO THIS IS SUCH A HUGE PROBLEM THAT IMPACTS SO MANY PEOPLE, THAT I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, HAS FLOWN UNDER THE RADAR AND IT DOES SPEAK TO THE WAY THAT OUR SYSTEM IS THROWING AWAY CERTAIN PEOPLE AND THROWING AWAY FAMILIES THAT ARE IMPACTED.

>> BLAKE STRODE FROM THE ARCH CITY DEFENDERS.

THAT COMPLETES THIS HALF HOUR.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US AND SHARING YOUR VIEWS.

WE SURE APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK, EVERYBODY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

TAKE CARE.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.