♪ >> TONIGHT ON TALKING POLITICS SHOULD THE BOSTON GLOBE HAVE RUN THE RECENT PIECE ON MEDICAL AID IN DYING AFTER THEY LEARNED HE SIGNED A LEGAL FORM RELATED TO THE PROCESS FOR THE WOMAN WHOSE STORY HE WAS CHRONICLING?

WE WILL TALK TO A JOURNALIST AND MEDIA ANALYST, BUT AVERSE THE RECREATION COMPLEX AT ROXBURY IS USUALLY HOME TO COMMUNITY GROUPS, LOCALS BOARDS JAMES, AND AFTERSCHOOL ACTIVITIES.

RIGHT NOW IT IS HOME TO DOZENS OF UNHOUSED MIGRANT FAMILIES MANY OF WHOM ARE SLEEPING AT LOGAN AIRPORT BEFORE THE GOVERNOR TURNED THE COMPLEX INTO TEMPORARY SHELTER EARLIER THIS WEEK.

TEMPORARY BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD FOR THE GOVERNOR.

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS TEMPORARY.

WE WILL BE UP BEFORE JUNE.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE THIS SITE AVAILABLE.

ADAM: MANY ARE RAISING THE QUESTION WHY THIS PARTICULAR COMMUNITY CENTER?

I AM JOINED BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE BOSTON BRANCH OF THE NAACP REGIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY AND PRESIDENT OF A NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION AND ROXBURY.

ALSO BY REPORTER SARAH BENTON COVERING THE CRISIS FOR GBH NEWS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

SARAH, YOU SPEND SOME TIME WITH HER FAMILY AT LOGAN A FEW DAYS AGO FOR A GREAT PIECE THAT YOU WROTE FOR US.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THEIR SITUATION A LITTLE BIT?

THEY WERE COMING IN FROM HAITI THAT THEY HAD A LONG ROAD TO GET HERE.

>> ABSOLUTELY, ON SATURDAY NIGHT I SPENT A FEW HOURS AT LOGAN AIRPORT AND I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE THERE WERE NOT A LOT OF MIGRANT FAMILIES.

I THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN SO MUCH MEDIA COVERAGE FOR THE PREVIOUS THREE DAYS BEFORE, AFTER I WAITED AROUND FOR A FEW HOURS THERE WAS A FAMILY.

THE MOTHER’S NAME WAS CHRYSKLA, SHE WAS 30 YEARS OLD AND SHE HAD TWO CHILDREN AND A HUSBAND.

SHE WAS HEAVILY PREGNANT, AND SHE TALKED ABOUT HOW THEY HAD JOURNEYED FROM HAITI TO THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC AND CHILE, BUT THEY STRUGGLED TO BUILD A LIFE THERE, AND SHE HAD HEARD A LOT OF GROUPS WERE GOING TO SIT WORD FAMILIES HERE IN BOSTON, SO THEY ARRIVED IN JANUARY TO TEXAS AND CAME TO LOGAN AIRPORT THIS WEEK.

ADAM: MY RECOLLECTION IS SHE WAS SICK.

SHE WAS COUGHING, UNDER THE WEATHER.

ADAM: -- SARAH: AND ONE OF HER CHILDREN WAS AS WELL.

ADAM: THAT FAMILY WAS HERE AS HUMANITARIAN PAROLE.

WHAT IS HUMANITARIAN PAROLE?

SARAH: WHEN ASYLUM-SEEKERS CROSS THE BORDER AND CLAIM ASYLUM, USUALLY THEY ARE BROUGHT IN BY BORDER AGENTS OR CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.

AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE DETAINED FOR A FEW DAYS, SOMETIMES THEY ARE NOT, AND THEY ARE USUALLY RELEASED WITH THE PAPERWORK THAT SAYS YOU CAN LIVE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES FOR 2 YEARS WITHOUT FEAR OF DEPORTATION DEPENDING UPON THE PRESIDENT.

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE COUNTRY WERE COMING FROM.

AND THAT IS THE PAPERWORK THAT THEY HAD.

ADAM: LOIS, YOU RECEIVED IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHERE THE UNHOUSED MIGRANTS ARE NOW BEING GIVEN HOUSING AT THE CENTER.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF WHETHER THIS IS A MOVE THAT IS WISE, GOOD FOR THE COMMUNITY OR IS NOT?

LOUIS: MY FIRST SENSE IS THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY HUMANE THING TO DO , HAVING PEOPLE SLEEP AT THE AIRPORT OR ON THE STREETS OR ANYONE ELSE IS NOT HUMANE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT AS AMERICAN CITIZENS INCLUDING THE CITY OF BOSTON.

IT IS NOT THE BEST MOVE BASED ON THE LOGISTICS.

FOR THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE THERE NOW IT IS A WORKABLE SITE.

FOR THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO COME, THAT WOULD BE INCREDIBLY POOR CHOICE TO HAVE OCCUPATION.

ADAM: ONE THING I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT IS YOU HAVE DONE, WE MENTIONED THAT YOU WORK FOR FEMA.

YOU ALSO WORKED VIA FEMA FOR NATO AND A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT DISASTER CONTACTS.

YOU ARE INTIMATELY ACQUAINTED WITH THIS KIND OF STUFF.

LOUIS: DISASTERS AND CRISES FROM FLOODING TO FIRES AND STUFF.

UNDERSTAND WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN A CRISIS YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION, SO YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THERE ARE OVER 7000 MIGRANTS THE STATE HAS ALREADY BEEN HOUSING.

THE ISSUE WITH THIS BEING A POPULATION THAT ARE MOSTLY HAITIAN, THERE IS A NEED TO ADD PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING IN FOR THEIR MENTAL HEALTH AND SOCIAL WELL-BEING, AND SO CHOOSING THIS COMMUNITY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN JUST THE MOVE TO GET THEM HOUSED BUT ALSO PUT THEM IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY MIGHT FIND PEOPLE FOR WHICH THEY CAN COMMUNICATE.

ADAM: THAT IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT OCCURRED TO ME, AND THAT IS AN IMPORTANT POINT.

SARAH, WHAT ELSE IS THE STATE AND PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE WORKING WITH MIGRANTS, WHAT ELSE ARE THEY DOING TO ACCOMMODATE THIS CONTINUING INFLOW OF MIGRANT FAMILIES WITH THE STATE’S TRADITIONAL SHELTER SYSTEM CAPACITY?

SARAH: SO, THEY SHELLED CAPACITY IS COMPRISED OF ABOUT 48% MIGRANTS RIGHT NOW, SO THAT IS ABOUT 3623 FAMILIES AS OF LAST THURSDAY, AND A LOT OF REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT AGENCIES AND LOCAL GROUPS LIKE THE IMMIGRANT FAMILY SERVICES INSTITUTE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR A LONG TIME AND IN EARNEST IN THE PAST YEAR.

WE JUST PUBLISHED A PIECE A FEW MINUTES AGO ABOUT WHAT CHURCH GROUPS ARE DOING, AND ALSO WHAT PRIVATE AND -- RESIDENTS CAN DO, AND THAT COULD BE ANYTHING TO OPEN UP YOUR HOME AND GOING THROUGH AN ORGANIZATION THAT WILL LIKELY THAT YOU AND HOUSING A MIGRANT FAMILY FOR A FEW MONTHS ALL THE WAY TO IF YOU HAVE A DRIVERS LICENSE AND YOU CAN TAKE THEM TO A LOCAL FOOD PANTRY OR TO A DOCTORS APPOINTMENT.

ANYTHING THAT IS SMALL OR LARGE IS HELPFUL A LOT OF FOLKS ARE SAYING.

ADAM: ARE THERE OTHER SITES THAT ARE CURRENTLY BEING OPERATED BY THE STATE?

I HAD SEEN SOME DISCUSSION ON UNIVERSAL HUB WHEN I WAS READING THAT SITE ABOUT A SITE IN MEDFORD THAT COULD BE OPENED UP.

EITHER ANGEL OR -- ARE THERE OTHER SITES?

SARAH: IN CAMBRIDGE THERE IS A FORMER COURTHOUSE IN OPERATION TO UP MIGRANT FAMILY SINCE BEFORE DECEMBER WHEN THERE WAS A DEADLINE INSTITUTED BY THE LEGISLATURE TO HAVE OVERFLOW SHELTERS CREATED, AND IN THE PAST CAPE COD HAS BEEN OPENED UP TO MIGRANT FAMILIES TWICE DURING THE MARTHA’S VINEYARD INCIDENT, AND ALSO MORE RECENTLY I THINK IT WAS LAST SUMMER AS WELL.

ADAM: WHEN YOU SAID THAT THIS WAS NOT A GOOD VENUE LONG-TERM BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WILL BE COMING, WHAT IS IT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE RECREATION CENTER THAT MAKES IT LIMITED IN TERMS OF ITS ABILITY TO PROVIDE SERVICES?

LOUIS: LACK OF LAY DOWN SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO STRETCH OUT.

PEOPLE ARE CRAMMED TOGETHER, THE COSTS ARE LIKE ONE FOOT APART.

THERE ARE NOT CLEAR DEMARCATIONS AND WHEN YOU HAVE MOTHERS AND CHILDREN WITH MOTHERS FEEDING INFANTS AND OTHER SOCIAL AND PERSONAL ISSUES, YOU NEED TO HAVE MORE SPACE.

YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO ISOLATE THEM AND LET THEM ISOLATE.

THE RESTROOM FACILITIES, THE BATHROOMS AND SHOWERS, THAT CREATES IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHILDREN.

YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO GO TOO FAR AWAY TO USE FACILITIES.

THE STATE HAS IN ITS REPERTOIRE PLACES I CAN GO.

MY RECOMMENDATION TO BE USING THE HOSPITAL STILL IN OPERATION, 85% OF WHICH IS USABLE.

THE IDEA IS YOU MENTIONED REFUGEES -- WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH REFUGEES BECAUSE THEN WE WOULD BE UNDER INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE HOUSED IN A HUMANE WAY.

THE CHALLENGES FOR THE CENTER AND OTHER PLACES, THE CENTER HAD PROGRAMS GOING ON, YOUTH PROGRAMS, SPORTS PROGRAMS, SO IT IS CHALLENGING BECAUSE OF THOSE PROGRAMS ARE BEING DISPLACED.

WE MIGHT MAKE THE DEADLINE AS THE GOVERNOR SAID, BUT THAT WE HAVE TO SAY HOW DO WE ACCOMMODATE THE YOUNG CHILDREN WHO ARE IN SCHOOL AND LIVE HERE AND HAVE CHALLENGES NOW?

WE WILL BE LOOKING AT THE REGGIE LEWIS CENTER AND OTHER PLACES THAT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE WILL HAVE PROGRAMS THAT THEY CAN GO SO THEY ARE NOT TOTALLY LEFT OUT IN THE COLD.

ADAM: I WANTED TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF VIDEO FROM STATE SENATOR LIZ MIRANDA WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT HER RESPONSE TO THIS, THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION.

LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT HOW SHE FRAMED IT, THEN I WENT TO GET BOTH OF YOU TO RESPOND TO HER COMMENTS.

>> WE ARE A PEOPLE WHO HELP PEOPLE AND THEIR WORST MOMENTS, AND WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THAT.

NOW I WHOLEHEARTEDLY UNDERSTAND THAT OUR COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ASKED TO SACRIFICE A GREAT DEAL.

WE ARE IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY, AND NONE OF US SHOULD STAND BY WHILE WOMEN, CHILDREN, AND FAMILY SLEEP OUTSIDE OR IN AN AIRPORT WHO LOOK LIKE US.

ADAM: SO WE SAW SOME SIGNS BY PEOPLE WHO WERE OPPOSED TO THIS MOVE, WHICH SAID ESSENTIALLY, WHY HERE?

WHY NOT WELLESLEY?

LOUIS: GET EDUCATED.

THERE ARE PLACES AROUND THE STATE IN WHICH MIGRANTS ARE BEING HOUSED RIGHT NOW.

IT IS NOT JUST AUSTIN, CHELSEA -- BOSTON, CHELSEA.

DURING KATRINA AND RITA WE HAD THE CHALLENGE OF GETTING MIGRANTS COMING IN JOINT BASED IN CAPE COD WHERE THEY HOUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN THEY PUT UP SIGNS LIKE THAT.

WELLESLEY MAY NOT BE A SITE BUT THERE ARE OTHER SITES AROUND THE STATE IN WHICH MIGRANTS -- WE HAVE GOT 7500 MIGRANTS IN THERE NOW, BUT I DON’T SEE THE SIGNS WHEN WE HAVE UKRAINIAN REFUGEES OR PEOPLE COMING IN FROM KOSOVO IN DIFFERENT RACES.

IT IS ONLY TO A COMMUNITY WHERE FOLKS DON’T UNDERSTAND THEY ARE THERE FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS, AND THE SENATOR IS CORRECT.

THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE THE PEOPLE IN THAT CENTER LOOK LIKE THE PEOPLE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, AND THEY NEED TO BE THERE FOR SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL SUPPORT, BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE A CLEAR OBLIGATION ON PART OF THE STATE THAT THEY WILL GET THAT CENTER BACK IN PLACE AND THAT THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN PROGRAMS GO SOMEWHERE.

ADAM: HOW FREQUENT IS IT TO SEE PEOPLE EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT THE BURDEN BEING PLACED ON A PARTICULAR COMMUNITY WHEN MIGRANTS OR UNHOUSED PEOPLE ARE PLACED THERE?

SARAH: GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF HOUSING AND ITS PRICE AND ALSO THE LEVEL OF HOUSING STOCK, IT HAPPENS PRETTY OFTEN, BUT I HAVE TO ECHO A LOT OF WHAT LOUIS SAID.

THERE ARE MUNICIPALITIES, THOUSANDS OF COMMUNITIES THAT ARE IN SHELTER SITES AND HAVE READ AND MIGRANTS THROUGH THE STATE EMERGENCY SHELTER CONTRACT, LOCAL HOTELS AND SHELTERS, AND A LOT OF THESE COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY WELCOMING.

NOW WHEN IT COMES TO THE RECREATION CENTER, THERE WERE OTHER FACILITIES THAT WERE CONSIDERED, INCLUDING EAST BOSTON, SUFFOLK DOWNS, AND WEST ROXBURY RECREATION OR EDUCATION COMPLEX.

I AM CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT EXACTLY THE CENTER WAS CHOSEN, BUT I THINK PART OF WHAT LOUIS SAID ABOUT MIGRANTS FEELING MORE COMFORTABLE THERE, A LOT OF THE LANGUAGES SPOKEN IN THE AREA MIGHT BE PART OF IT AS WELL.

THIS ISSUE IS NOT GOING AWAY, AND PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO NEED HUMANITARIAN RELIEF.

ADAM: IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED THERE MAY END UP BEING SOME TYPE OF BENEFIT MOVING FORWARD FOR ROXBURY, FOR THE CENTER IN PARTICULAR THAT IT MAY BE REFURBISHED, FOR EXAMPLE.

THE LOCAL VENDORS MAY BENEFIT FROM THIS.

IT MAY SOUND CALLOUS FOR ME TO BE TALKING ABOUT BENEFIT TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD OR FACILITY WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN UPENDED, BUT IS THAT A REASONABLE THING FOR PEOPLE TO BE THINKING ABOUT?

WAZE THERE MIGHT BE SOME SORT OF ANCILLARY COMMUNITY BENEFIT?

LOUIS: YES, THERE WILL BE BENEFIT.

SOME OF THESE BENEFITS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE BEFORE THE CENTER WAS BEING USED THIS WAY, AND PEOPLE WERE REALLY UPSET NOW THAT THEY WANTED TO GET SUED FOR THIS PARTICULAR PURPOSE THEY ARE SAYING HERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO.

SOME OF THOSE THINGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALONG TIME AGO.

WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR UPGRADES AND IMPROVEMENTS.

HAD THEY MADE THAT THIS MOVE MIGHT’VE BEEN BETTER UPGRADING THE FACILITIES, THE LABORATORIES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

THERE WILL BE CHANGES, IMPROVEMENTS, BUT THROUGHOUT ROXBURY WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR CHANGE AND DCR AND THE STATE ARE PARTNERS, AND ALL OF THE THINGS WE ARE DOING.

NOW THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN RIGHT NOW, BUT FIRST WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, AND FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE COMMUNITY THEY ARE GOOD WITH THAT.

ADAM: GOT TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

IT IS ONE OF THE CARDINAL RULES OF JOURNALISM, DO NOT GET PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THE STORY, BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT A BOSTON GLOBE COLUMNIST KEVIN CULLEN DID WHEN REPORTING ON THE STORY OF A TERMINALLY A WOMAN WHO TRAVELED TO VERMONT TO DIED BY MEDICALLY ASSISTED SUICIDE.

THE WOMAN NEEDED TWO PEOPLE TO ATTEST SHE WAS IN A CLEAR STATE OF MIND AS SHE MADE HER DECISION, AND COLIN AGREED TO BE ONE OF THEM.

THE CLUB SAID THE DECISION VIOLATED STANDARDS BUT DID NOT DEEPLY IMPACT THE OUTCOME OF THIS STORY.

DID THEY MAKE THE RIGHT CALL THEM PUBLISHING IT ANYWAY PARTICULARLY SINCE THERE IS A RENEWED PUSH TO LEGALIZE MEDICAL AID IN DYING IN MASSACHUSETTS?

I AM JOINED BY KELLY MCBRIDE, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF THE CRAIG NEWMARK CENTER FOR ETHICS AT THE POYNTER INSTITUTE AND EDITOR, AND A JOURNALIST SUSIE HOST OF A PODCAST, WHICH JUST LAUNCHED ITS SECOND SEASON.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

KELLY, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE APPROPRIATENESS OR LACK THEREOF OF KEVIN ATTESTING THAT SHE WAS IN A CLEAR STATE OF MIND AND NOT OPERATING UNDER ANY DURESS AS SHE MADE HER DECISION TO TAKE HER LIFE?

KELLY: AT THE POINT THAT HE DID THAT, SHE SEND THAT PAPER, WHICH IS ABOUT SIX MONTHS BEFORE SHE ACTUALLY ENDED HER LIFE, HE PUT HIMSELF IN A REALLY HORRIBLE SET OF CONFLICTING LOYALTIES, BECAUSE HE HAD BY LOYALTY TO HIS STORY AND TO SEE HISTORY GOING FORWARD.

AND THEN HE ALSO HAD A LOYALTY TO OBSERVE HER JOURNEY, BECAUSE THE THING THAT MAKES IT SO INTERESTING AND FOLLOWING SOMEONE AS THEY MAKE THOSE FINAL DECISIONS IS IT IS REALLY HARD.

IT IS COMPLICATED, AND THEY FACE ALL SORTS OF EMOTIONAL TURMOIL, FAMILY ISSUES, AND AT THE POINT THAT HE DID THAT, THAT HE SIGNED THAT PAPER HE BASICALLY WAS ROOTING FOR HISTORY TO GO FORWARD AS OPPOSED TO BEING ATTACHED TO SIMPLY OBSERVING WHAT HAPPENED, AND I THINK HE WOULD’VE FED A MUCH BETTER STORY, IT WOULD’VE BEEN MUCH MORE INTERESTING TO WATCH AS SHE FIGURED THIS OUT.

SHE CERTAINLY WAS CAPABLE, THE WOMAN WHO WAS THE SUBJECT OF HIS STORY.

SHE SUED THE STATE TO PURSUE THIS AVENUE FOR HERSELF, SO SHE OBVIOUSLY HAD THE WHEREWITHAL TO FIND OTHER PEOPLE TO SIGN THAT PAPER, SO I FIND IT BAFFLING THAT HE MADE THAT CHOICE.

ADAM: WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS QUESTION?

SUZIE: I AGREE WITH KELLY.

THERE ARE TIMES WHEN YOU BECOME TOO CLOSE TO A SUBJECT, BUT THAT IS GENERALLY A ROOKIE MISTAKE, AND THIS IS NOT A ROOKIE.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER, AND I THINK ONE THING THAT REALLY STRUCK ME IN THE STORY IS RIGHT BEFORE HE MENTIONED THAT HE HAD SIGNED THIS LETTER SHE TOLD THE STORY OF ANOTHER PATIENT WHO HAD REALLY STRUGGLED TO FIND SOMEONE TO SIGN THEIR PAPER, AND TO ME HE MATERIALLY CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE STORY.

IF THE PURPOSE OF THE STORY WAS TO EDUCATE OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT WANT TO PURSUE THIS AVENUE HE SKIPPED A STEP ESSENTIALLY BY BEING THE PERSON WHO SIGNED THIS AND NOT HAVING OTHER THINGS THAT SHE WOULD HAVE HAD TO DO TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE SHE ENDED UP.

SO I AGREE.

FROM AN ETHICAL PERSPECTIVE, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE RIGHT DECISION.

IT IS NOT THAT YOU CAN NEVER DO SOMETHING IF YOU ARE IN A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION AND YOU HAVE TO INTERVENE.

THERE ARE OCCASIONAL TIMES WHERE THOSE ETHICAL BRIDGES MAKE SENSE, BUT IN THOSE -- THIS PARTICULAR CASE IT FELT LIKE IT IS SOMETHING YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO DO.

ADAM: DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE THAT HE IS DESCRIBED BY THE GLOBE AS BOTH A REPORTER AND A COLUMNIST, WHICH ARE TWO ROLES WE TEND OF THINKING OF IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

IF WE THINK OF HIM TAKING THIS STEP IS IS COLUMNIST HAT, DOESN’T LOOK ANY BETTER?

SUZIE: THAT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE IF HE WAS AN OPINION WRITER IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT.

IF THIS WAS A PIECE OF ADVOCACY WHERE HE WAS ADVOCATING FOR THIS POSITION, IT MAYBE THERE WOULD BE SLIGHTLY MORE ARGUMENT IT WAS NOT SUCH A BREACH, BUT IN FACT THEY PUT IN THE EDITOR’S NOTE IN THE STORY AND THEY SAID IT VIOLATED THEIR STANDARDS, SO THEY DID NOT FEEL LIKE IT WAS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING A ORDERING COLUMNIST IN THIS CASE.

I FEEL LIKE WE SHOULD TAKE THE GLOBE AT THEIR WORD THAT THIS WAS AN ETHICAL BREACH, AND THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT KEVIN HAD AN ETHICAL BREACH.

PREVIOUSLY HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR SOME EMBELLISHMENT DURING HIS BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING REPORTING, SO I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK ME IN THE STORY IS ALL IT IS THERE DO NOT SEEM TO BE ANY ADDITIONAL CONSEQUENCES FOR KEVIN.

ADAM: HOLD THAT CONSEQUENCES THOUGHT, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE I WANT US TO WRAP UP.

IS IT IN ANY WAY EXCULPATORY THAT KEVIN IS BOTH A COLUMNIST AND A REPORTER?

KELLY: NOT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, NO.

IF HE HAD BEEN DOING A STORY ABOUT A FRIEND OF HIS WHO WAS GOING TO THIS PROCESS AND HE WAS COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT THAT HE HAD A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS PERSON, THAT WOULD’VE BEEN A VERY DIFFERENT STORY, AND A VERY INTERESTING.

I DO NOT THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ANY LESS VALUABLE THAN THIS PARTICULAR STORY, BUT IN THIS CASE THIS WOMAN MADE YOURSELF PART OF THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION BY FILING A LAWSUIT SO THAT SHE COULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAKE HER OWN LIFE IN VERMONT WHEN SHE WAS NOT A RESIDENT OF THAT STATE, AND SHE WON THAT LAWSUIT, AND THAT IS HOW THE MEDIA BECAME AWARE OF HER.

SO HE CAME IN AS AN OUTSIDER, AND THERE IS ALSO VALUE IN THAT SORT OF DISTANT OBSERVATION AND JUST WATCHING SOMEBODY AS THEY WALKED THROUGH A VERY DIFFICULT AND INTIMATE PROCESS, AND SO, I MEAN, I AGREE IT IS A ROOKIE MISTAKE, AND I ALSO THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SOME COLUMNISTS HAVE TROUBLE DOING IS FIGURING OUT WHEN THEY REALLY ARE PART OF THE STORY AND WHY THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE STORY, BECAUSE JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE AN OPINION COLUMNIST DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE A CENTRAL CHARACTER IN EVERY STORY.

ENDED THIS CASE AND IN HIS PREVIOUS ETHICAL BREACH AS WELL, HE KEPT MAKING HIMSELF A CENTRAL CHARACTER OF THE STORY UNNECESSARILY SO, AND THAT I THINK IS ALSO PROBLEMATIC.

ADAM: I WANTED TO GET TO HIS SUSPENSION BACK IN 2018, THREE MONTHS WITHOUT PAY FOR FABRICATING DETAILS ABOUT WHAT HE EXPERIENCED IN CONNECTION TO THE BOSTON MARATHON BOMBINGS, NOT IN HIS WORK AT THE GLOBE BUT IN PUBLIC APPEARANCES, APPEARANCES AND OTHER MEDIA, AND I THINK WE ACTUALLY HAVE A CLIP OF THAT AT A PANEL IN 2013 AT C-SPAN, WHICH I BELIEVE YOU WERE A PART OF.

LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT COLIN HAD TO SAY IN THE 2013 PANEL.

>> GREAT FIREMEN GRABBED ME, HE SAID HE HAS AN IPHONE.

THIS IS SEAN O’BRIEN.

I CANNOT GET HIM OUT OF THE HOUSE.

HE GOES TALK TO THEM.

I SAID, HEY SEAN, IT IS GIVEN.

COME DOWN AND HAVE A DRINK WITH ME AND JOE.

HE SAYS I DO NOT WANT TO COME OUT.

LISTEN, I WILL SEE YOU LATER.

I SAID TO JOE, WAS SHOWN AT THE SCENE?

AND HE GOES SEAN FOUND THE KID, AND THAT IS WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT THE BOY HAD DIED.

ADAM: THAT WAS DETERMINED BY AN INVESTIGATION TO HAVE BEEN FABRICATED.

I WENT TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT POSSIBLE MITIGATING FACTORS.

IT WAS NOT MY SENSE THAT KEVIN CULLEN INSERTED HIMSELF INTO THE STORY THE WAY THAT WE SAW HIM INSERT HIMSELF INTO THAT, BOGUS ANECDOTE ABOUT THE BOSTON MARATHON.

I THOUGHT THE STORY WAS VERY COMPELLING, BOTH HIS REPORTING AND THE PHOTOS, WHICH I THOUGHT WERE REMARKABLY MOVING.

WE GOT TO SEE LINDA AND A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AS SHE HEADED TOWARD ENDING HER LIFE.

I FOUND THE COMBINATION OF PHOTOS AND REPORTING TO BE VERY EVOCATIVE.

FOR ME I HAD THE REACTION THAT YOU BOTH HAD.

I THOUGHT, YOU CANNOT DO THAT.

HE BECAME PART OF THE STORY.

HE CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE STORY OR CHANGE THE WAY IT UNFOLDED, BUT THEN I FOUND MYSELF THINKING THOSE OF US IN THE MEDIA, AND WHEN WE COVER A STORY LIKE THIS WE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO INDIVIDUALS OPENING UP ACCESS TO AN INCREDIBLY SENSITIVE AND FRAUGHT AND DIFFICULT PERIOD, AND AS A ROLE OUR COVERAGE IS SOMETHING WE GIVE THEM IN RETURN, BUT WE DO NOT GIVE THEM MUCH BACK.

WE GET ACCESS AT THE TIME WHEN PEOPLE ARE VERY VULNERABLE.

I FOUND MYSELF THINKING IS IT REALLY THAT BIG A DEAL THAT KEVIN CULLEN CHOSE TO ATTEST TO THE SOUND MENTAL STATE OF A WOMAN THAT IT TAKEN HIM AND HIS PHOTOGRAPHER INTO THEIR LIFE WITH THIS DEPTH AND LEVEL OF RICHNESS?

IS THERE ANY CASE TO BE MADE FOR THE RETURNING OF A FAVOR?

KELLY: YOU KNOW, I THINK THE RETURNING OF A FAVOR IS A WELL TOLD STORY, A STORY TOLD WITH DIGNITY AND COMPASSION, AND I AGREE SHE DID DO THAT.

IT IS A WELL TOLD STORY, BUT I DO NOT THINK -- I THINK IT ACTUALLY BECAME A DISTRACTION.

IF HE THOUGHT IT WAS A FAVOR TO HER, SHE DID NOT DO HER ANY FAVORS, BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS RATHER THAN THE REST OF THE STORY.

SUZIE: THAT IS ALSO MY POINT OF VIEW.

I HEAR WHAT YOU WERE SAYING THAT WE DO ASK A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT IN THIS CASE THIS WAS A WOMAN WHO HAD CHOSEN TO DO A LOT OF ADVOCACY AROUND THIS ISSUE AND WANTED TO OPEN UP HER HOME AND TELL HER STORY IN AN EFFORT TO HELP PEOPLE, RIGHT?

AND IN THIS CASE THE THING THAT YOU ARE DOING FOR THIS WOMAN IS TELLING HER STORY, AND TO ME THAT IS THE ARGUMENT FOR PUBLISHING THE STORY DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE MADE THIS MISTAKE.

THEY SORT OF VOTED TO THIS WOMAN TO TELL HER STORY AFTER HAVING TAKEN UP SO MUCH OF OUR TIME AND HAVING ESSENTIALLY TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF HER GENEROSITY IN THIS CASE, SO I DO THINK THE GLOBE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION TO PUBLISH, BUT I DO NOT THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION TO SIGN THIS PAPERWORK.

IT DOES NOT FEEL LIKE IT WAS NECESSARY, AND IT HAS BEEN SUCH A DISTRACTION THAT IT HAS TAKEN AWAY FROM THIS MOVING PIECE.

IT IS A GOOD PIECE OF JOURNALISM.

ADAM: THE PAPER I BELIEVE LEARNED ABOUT WHAT WE HAD BEEN DISCUSSING HERE AFTER LINDA DIED AND THE STORY HAD BEEN FILED.

YOU SAID YOU THINK PUBLISHING WAS THE RIGHT CALL DESPITE THIS WRINKLE.

KELLY, DO YOU AGREE?

KELLY: I DO, BUT I THINK IT IS TELLING HE DID NOT TELL ANY OF HIS EDITORS BACK IN JULY WHEN HE SIGNED IT, AND IT WAS AS WE WERE GETTING THE STORY TO GO READY INTO PRODUCTION THAT THEY REALIZED THAT THERE WAS THIS COMPLICATION THAT NEEDED TO BE EXPLAINED WITH AN EDITOR’S NOTE.

ADAM: FINAL QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU, AND WE WILL GO KELLY AND SUSIE AND LEAVE IT THERE.

SHOULD THERE BE SANCTIONING FOR THE WAY THAT THIS PLAYED OUT?

KELLY: THAT IS UP TO THE NEWSROOM.

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE HAS NOT BEEN.

WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF ANYTHING PUBLICLY, BUT WE DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE HAS NOT BEEN, AND I REALLY THINK THAT IS BETWEEN HIM AND NANCY BARNES, THE EDITOR OF THE GLOBE.

ADAM: SUSIE, YOU GET THE LAST WORD.

SUZIE: IT IS NOT FOR US TO SAY.

OBVIOUSLY WE ARE NOT IN THE NEWSROOM.

IF YOU HAVE A REPORTER THAT HAS HAD ETHICAL BREACHES IN THE PATCH -- PAST AND YOU PUBLICLY STATE THIS IS A ETHICAL BREACH YOU RISK -- ANY OTHER REPORTER WITH TWO ETHICAL BREACHES WOULD HAVE SOME CONSEQUENCE FOR THAT ESPECIALLY THE SECOND TIME, SO MY INSTINCT AS AN OUTSIDER, I AM HERE TO GIVE MY OPINION IS THERE PROBABLY SHOULD BE SOME CONSEQUENCE TO THIS TO MAKE A POINT TO THE NEWSROOM THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND WHEN YOU DO THINGS THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE THERE ARE RESULTS.

BUT IN THE END I HAVE LED A LOT OF NEWSROOMS AND YOU MAKE A LOT OF DECISIONS AND YOU DO NOT ALWAYS MAKE THEM PUBLIC.

ADAM: TO THAT POINT, WE DID AS THE PAPER IF THERE WAS GOING TO BE SOME SORT OF SANCTIONING, AND THEY SAID THEY DID NOT COMMENT ON PERSONAL MATTERS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR TUCKING THIS THORNY ISSUE THROUGH.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK NEXT WEEK AND PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

THE EMAIL IS TALKING POLITICS AT GBH.ORG.

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FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD NIGHT.

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