>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": JOE BIDEN IS TIGHTENING THE SCREWS ON THE MAN WHO DECLARED WAR ON UKRAINE.

>> PUTIN CHOSE THIS WAR AND NOW HE AND HIS COUNTRY WILL BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES.

>> Braude: BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE BEARING THE WAR'S CONSEQUENCES.

I'M JOINED BY TWO UKRAINIANS STUDYING AT M.I.T., ON THEIR FEARS FOR THEIR COUNTRY AND THEIR LOVED ONES AT HOME.

THEN, LATER, WHEN A WOMAN AND HER TEENAGE DAUGHTER WERE ATTACKED FOR SPEAKING SPANISH HERE IN BOSTON, PROSECUTORS TREATED IT AS A HATE CRIME.

BUT WHEN IT CAME TO SENTENCING, THE LAWYERS REPRESENTING THE VICTIMS SAID THE COURT MET RACISM AND BIGOTRY WITH LENIENCY AND TOLERANCE.

ONE OF THOSE ATTORNEYS, SOPHIA HALL, JOINS ME ON THAT AND ON THE LOSS OF ANOTHER CIVIL RIGHTS WARRIOR IN HER OFFICE, LAUREN SAMPSON.

PLUS, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF COMMERCE LINDA BILMES AND FORMER NAACP PRESIDENT CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS ON THE RACIST DIVIDE THAT CAME FROM THE 1944 G.I.

BILL AND HOW THEY'RE HOPING CONGRESS WILL FIX IT.

♪♪ >> Braude: WHEN WE STARTED THIS SHOW TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA LAST NIGHT, WE SAID WAR WAS IMMINENT.

[SIRENS] RUSSIAN TROOPS HAVE BEEN ATTACKING ON MULTIPLE FRONTS IN UKRAINE FOR NEARLY A DAY NOW.

AND AUTHORITIES SAY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CIVILIANS, HAVE BEEN KILLED, WITH WIDESPREAD SHELLING, ATTACKS ON AIRFIELDS, INCLUDING THE CAPITAL KYIV'S LARGEST AIRPORT, AND THE TOTAL RUSSIAN TAKEOVER OF THE ABANDONED CHERNOBYL NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.

THIS AFTERNOON JOE BIDEN ANNOUNCED A NEW SET OF SANCTIONS, IN CONJUNCTION WITH U.S.

ALLIES, AND MADE IT CLEAR HE BELIEVES A TAKEOVER OF UKRAINE WOULD BE ONLY THE START, IF VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS HIS WAY.

>> HE HAS MUCH LARGER AMBITIONS THAN UKRAINE.

HE WANTS TO, IN FACT, RE-ESTABLISH THE SOVIET UNION.

THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

WE HAVE PURPOSELY DESIGNED THESE SANCTIONS TO MAXIMIZE THE LONG-TERM IMPACT ON RUSSIA AND TO MINIMIZE THE IMPACT ON THE UNITED STATES AND OUR ALLIES.

>> Braude: BIDEN AND THE ALLIES DID STOP SHORT OF SANCTIONING PUTIN DIRECTLY, FOR NOW.

AND WHILE THE WHITE HOUSE IS DIRECTING MORE SUPPLIES TO UKRAINE AND MORE TROOPS TO THE REGION, BIDEN REITERATED: AMERICAN FORCES WILL NOT FIGHT IN UKRAINE ITSELF.

I'M JOINED NOW BY TWO UKRAINIAN CITIZENS WHO ARE CURRENTLY STUDYING AT M.I.T.

BUT HAVE MANY LOVED ONES BACK HOME IN UKRAINE, SASHA HOROKH AND VLADA PETRUSENKO.

>> Braude: VLADA AND SASHA, THANK YOU FOR SPENDING SOME TIME WITH US TONIGHT.

>> SURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: SASHA -- THANK YOU.

SASHA, START WIGING WITH YOU, HOW ARE YOUR FAMILY AND THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE BACK HOME?

HOW ARE THEY DOING?

>> MY FAIS FAMILY IS BACK IN UKRAINE, AS WELL AS MOST OF MY FRIENDS THERE.

AND, UM, I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THEM EVER SINCE I FOUND OUT ABOUT THE START OF THE RUSSIAN ATTACK, WHICH WAS 10:00 P.M. LAST NIGHT BY BOSTON TIME, AND 5:00 P.M.

IN UKRAINE AT THE TIME.

THEY ARE STAYING IN UKRAINE, TRYING TO STAY CALM, AND JUST DO WHATEVER THEY CAN.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU SAY STAY CALM, ARE THEY NOT SCARED?

WHEN I SEE AVERAGE UKRAINIANS ON THE STREET ON TELEVISION AT NIGHT, I AM STUNNED HOW BRAVE AND DEFIANT THEY SEEM TO BE.

ARE THEY SCARED FOR THEIR FUTURES?

>> THEY DEFINITELY ARE SCARED FOR THEIR FUTURES, FOR THEIR LOVED ONES' FUTURES, THE FUTURE OF THEIR COUNTRY AND THEIR HOME.

HOWEVER, BEING SCARED IS NOT GOING TO HELP MUCH.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE TRYING NOT TO BE SCARED AND TO PANIC, BUT TRYING TO DO THINGS THAT MAY HELP THE UKRAINIAN ARMY AND HELP DEFEND OUR COUNTRY.

>> Braude: VLADIMIR PUTIN -- I'M SORRY.

>> THE UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM.

>> Braude: VLADA, HOW ARE YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY DOING BACK HOME?

>> MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS BACK HOME ALSO ARE PRETTY SCARED.

THEY WOKE UP LAST NIGHT BECAUSE THEY HEARD EXPLOSIONS, AND THERE WAS EXPLOSIONS ALL AROUND THE CITIES, IN ALL MAJOR CITIES THAT THEY WERE TARGETING -- FROM MY INFORMATION, THEY WERE TARGETING SPECIFICALLY IMPORTANT PLACES, BUT IT WAS ALL AROUND UKRAINE.

SO ALL THIS TIME WE'VE BEEN IN CONTINUOUS TOUCH WITH THEM TO TRY TO SUPPORT AND BE AWARE OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

BUT, YEAH, THAT IS PRETTY SCARY.

>> Braude: VLADA, LAST NIGHT WE SHARED A POLL WITH OUR VIEWERS, AND ONLY 26% OF AMERICANS THOUGHT OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD PLAY A MAJOR ROLE IN UKRAINE, BARELY ONE IN FOUR.

VLADA, DOES THAT TROUBLE YOU, THAT AMERICANS SEEM TO HAVE THIS PRETTY FAR DOWN THE PRIORITY LIST?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS CONCERNING THAT THE STATISTICS IS THIS WAY, BECAUSE THIS WORRY IS NOT ONLY ABOUT UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, BUT IT IS ABOUT RUSSIA ATTACKING COUNTRIES WITHOUT -- WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING ANY SORT OF REASONABLE.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS NEXT.

THE U.S. CAN BE THERE AT SOME POINT.

AND I DO NOT AGREE THAT AMERICANS DON'T CONSIDER THAT IT IS THEIR PROBLEM BECAUSE IT IS, IN MY POINT OF VIEW.

>> Braude: SASHA, DO YOU AND YOUR DEAR FAMILY AND FRIENDS BACK IN UKRAINE -- DO THEY FEEL THE UNITED STATES IS DOING ENOUGH TO HELP THEM?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE HOW MY PARENTS AND MY LOVED ONES IN UKRAINE FEEL ABOUT THAT BECAUSE MY CONVERSATIONS WEREN'T ABOUT THAT MOSTLY.

>> Braude: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?

>> THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT IS I BELIEVE THAT THE SITUATION THAT HAPPENS IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW, IF RUSSIA IS BEING THE AGGRESSOR AND BEING VERY CRUEL, THESE TYPES OF (indiscernable), WHICH ARE BOUND BY MANY INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS -- THE WAY RUSSIA JUST DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ALL OF THIS, IS NOT ONLY ATTACKING UKRAINE, BUT ATTACKING DEMOCRATS AND HUMAN RIGHTS, AND ALL OF THE IDEA OF KEEPING PEACE INT WORLD.

IN THE WORLD.

I BELIEVE THAT THE U.S. SHOULD BE EVEN MORE CONCERNED BECAUSE THEY'RE VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE SANCTIONS AND THE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE; HOWEVER, IT WASN'T ENOUGH TO MAKE IT AN OBSTACLE.

I BELIEVE THAT RIGHT NOW ALL OF THE ANSWERS SHOULD BE AS DEEP -- THE SANCTIONS SHOULD BE AS DEEP AS POSSIBLE SO WE STOP THE ATTACKS RIGHT NOW.

AND, IN PARTICULAR, WE WANT RUSSIA TO BE DISCONNECTED.

BECAUSE BIDEN'S TAKE THAT IT IS ONE OF THE OPTIONS FOR THE FUTURE, HOWEVER, RIGHT NOW THE RUSSIAN TROOPS ARE ALL AROUND UKRAINE.

IT IS ALREADY VERY SERIOUS.

>> Braude: EACH OF YOU, BUT STARTING WITH YOU, VLADA, FOR THE 52% OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT SAME POLL WHO THOUGHT THAT AMERICA SHOULD PLAY NO MORE THAN A MINOR ROLE IN THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW?

>> I WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT IT'S NOT AS DISTANT AS IT FEELS.

YEAH.

IT IS NOT JUST THERE IN UKRAINE.

IT IS ALL AROUND.

WE'RE HERE IN THE U.S. AND -- I DON'T KNOW.

I ALSO WANT TO TELL THEM THAT THEY ACTUALLY CAN PLAY A ROLE AND THEIR IMPACT ACTUALLY MATTERS.

SO, YEAH, THEY HAVE THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THE SITUATION IS HAPPENING, AND THEY HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IT IS IMPORTANT.

AND IF THEY CAN DONATE, IF THEY CAN SUPPORT THE SANCTIONS, YEAH.

I FEEL IT IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO ACTUALLY UNIT AGAINST A PRETTY AGGRESSIVE COUNTRY WHICH IS ATTACKING AT THIS POINT.

>> Braude: SASHA, I HAVE 30 SECONDS.

>>> WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW EVEN IF YOU'RE FAR ABROAD FROM UKRAINE, YOU CAN SUPPORT UKRAINE.

THERE ARE A FEW WAYS YOU CAN DO THAT: FIRST OF ALL, CHECKING YOUR RESOURCES AND ONLY SHARING AND REPORTING RELIABLE NEWS.

AND THE SECOND IS THE UKRAINIAN ARMY, WHICH DEFENDS OUR HOMES AND PEOPLE THERE, AND ACTUALLY THE PEACE IN EUROPE AND THE WHOLE WORLD.

FINALLY, PEOPLE CAN SPEAK UP.

THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE AND UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AND PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, THEY CAN SPEAK UP SO THAT THE RUSSIAN AGGRESSION DOESN'T SPREAD FARTHER.

>> Braude: SASHA AND VLADA, YOU'RE BOTH GOOD AD CAITSZ.

CATES.

I WISH YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES GOOD LUCK.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: WHEN A MOTHER AND HER TEENAGE DAUGHTER WERE VIOLENTLY ATTACKED IN EAST BOSTON IN FEBRUARY OF 2020, THEN-SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS PURSUED IT AS A HATE CRIME.

THE PAIR HAD BEEN WALKING IN MAVERICK SQUARE, TALKING TO EACH OTHER IN SPANISH, WHEN SURVEILLANCE VIDEO SHOWS A WHITE WOMAN RUN UP TO THEM, APPARENTLY SHOUTING, THEN PUNCHING THE MOTHER.

AS THAT MOTHER, IDENTIFIED ONLY AS MS. VASQUEZ, FOUGHT BACK, ANOTHER WHITE WOMAN JOINED IN AND MS. VASQUEZ SAID SHE AND HER DAUGHTER WERE HIT, KICKED, BITTEN, AND TOLD "THIS IS AMERICA.

GO BACK TO YOUR" BLEEPING "COUNTRY."

BUT ON FRIDAY, PROSECUTORS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY'D REACHED A PLEA DEAL WITH ONE OF THE TWO WOMEN ACCUSED IN THE ATTACK.

JENNY LEIGH ENNAMORATI, WHO WAS INITIALLY CHARGED WITH MISDEMEANOR CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, MISDEMEANOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY, AND FELONY ASSAULT AND BATTERY WITH A DANGEROUS WEAPON.

SO WHAT WILL SHE SERVE?

15 MONTHS PROBATION AND A SUBSTANCE ABUSE EVALUATION, WHILE THE OTHER DEFENDANT REPORTEDLY PLANS TO TAKE HER CASE TO TRIAL.

I'M JOINED NOW BY SOPHIA HALL, DEPUTY LITIGATION DIRECTOR FOR LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, WHICH HAS BEEN SUPPORTING THE VICTIMS AND RELEASED THAT SURVEILLANCE VIDEO YOU JUST SAW BEFORE ANY ARRESTS WERE MADE.

>> Braude: SOPHIA, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: YOUR ORGANIZATION RELEASED A STATEMENT AFTER THE SENTENCING THAT SAID "THE COURT MET RACISM AND BIGOTRY WITH LENIENCY AND TOLERANCE."

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DID THAT?

>> I MEAN, I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE HOW COMMON PLACE HATE CRIMES ARE.

THAT IS AS A RESULT OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NO STANDARDIZED PRACTICE FOR COLLECTING HATE-CRIME DATA ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT IS HIGHLY UNDERREPORTED.

AND IT IS A CRIME THAT TARGETS THE MOST VULNERABLE BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE.

AND WE DON'T, AS A COUNTRY, VALUE THE HARM IN THAT EXPERIENCE.

>> Braude: BUT IT WASN'T THE COUNTRY MAKING THE DECISION.

IT WAS THE INTERIM D.A., AND HERE IS KEVIN HAYDEN, THE INTERIM D.A.

'S COMMENT ON THIS, AS BOTH DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND A BLACK MAN, I HAVE SEEN AND EXPERIENCING THE HATEFUL BEHAVIOR THIS INDIVIDUAL ADMITTED TO, AND THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN OUR SOCIETY.

WAS ANY RATIONALE GIVEN IN LIGHT OF THAT COMMENT WHY THE SENTENCE NEGOTIATED, THE DEAL NEGOTIATED WITH HIS OFFICE, WAS SO LIGHT?

>> NO, UNFORTUNATELY.

AGAIN, I THINK THE DISCONNECT IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE FACT THAT HATE CRIMES ARE DEVALUED AS HARMFUL OFFENSES AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAVE BEEN A FAIR SENTENCE IN THIS CASE, OR A RANGE AT LEAST?

>> I BELIEVE IT MAY HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE STATEMENT, BUT THE FAMILY WAS QUITE EXPLICIT.

THEY ASKED FOR A VOLUNTEER SENTENCE, SO VOLUNTEER WORK, IN THE COMMUNITY WORKING WITH IMMIGRANTS.

SO TO ACTUALLY HAVE A SENTENCE THAT WOULD HAVE REFLECTED THE HARM THAT THEY CAUSED TO THE IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY IN EAST BOSTON.

>> Braude: PRETTY MODEST, I SHOULD SAY, TOO, BY THE WAY.

SO THEY WEREN'T EVEN LOOKING FOR JAIL TIME, SIGNIFICANT JAIL TIME, THEY JUST WANTED THEM TO BE FORCED TO WORK IN A COMMUNITY AND MAYBE LEARN A LITTLE SOMETHING AND GVE BACK A LITTLE SOMETHING?

>> PRECISELY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PARTS OF THIS, BEYOND THAT SHOCKING VIDEO, WAS I READ A SUMMARY OF THE TESTIMONY ON FRIDAY THAT WAS GIVEN BY MS. VASQUEZ.

CAN YOU SUMMARIZE WHAT SHE AND HER DAUGHTER SAID THE IMPACT OF THESE CRIMES ON THEM HAVE BEEN ON THEIR LIVES?

>> I MEAN, IT IS SO FAR-REACHING, AND IT IS REALLY HORRENDOUS.

FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE COURTROOM, THEY JUST SAT THERE WITH TEARS IN THEIR EYES AND SHOOK THEIR HEADS AS THE FAMILY DESCRIBED A FEAR OF SPEAKING THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE ANY TIME THEY'RE OUTSIDE OF THEIR HOME, AS THEY DESCRIBED A FEAR OF TAKING PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS REALLY PARTICULARLY DAMAGING WHEN HATE CRIMES INVOLVE A YOUNG PERSON BECAUSE IT CAN HAVE A REAL IMPACT ON THEIR DEVELOPMENT.

AND TO HAVE A MOTHER OR A PARENT PRESENT DURING A HATEFUL ATTACK LIKE THAT, AND BE UNABLE TO REALLY PROTECT YOUR CHILD IN THE WAY YOU WOULD HOPE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT MAKES THIS VERY UNIQUE.

AND MS. VASQUEZ AND HER DAUGHTER WERE QUITE ELOQUENT IN PUTTING THAT INTO WRITING.

>> Braude: DID YOU SPEAK TO THEM AFTER THE SENTENCE WAS ANNOUNCED?

>> MY COLLEAGUE DID, WHO WAS PRESENT IN COURT WITH THEM.

THEY WERE JUST REALLY HEARTBROKEN BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN TWO LONG YEARS.

THEY HAVE FOUGHT FOR EVERY INCH THAT THEY'VE GOTTEN IN THIS MATTER, FOR IT TO BE CONSIDERED A HATE CRIME, FOR IT TO BE INVESTIGATED THAT WAY, FOR IT TO BE PROSECUTED AT ALL.

SO THIS WAS REALLY A SLAP IN THE FACE FOR THEM.

>> Braude: I KNOW THIS IS INCALCULABLE, BUT WHEN I WAS READING ABOUT THIS STORY, I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE TBACT THAT THE NUMBERFACT THAT THENUMBER OF HATE CRIMES IN UP IN MASSACHUSETTS, AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN FROM YOUR WORK, AND WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE DOES THIS SEND?

I'M NOT NAIVE ENOUGH TO THINK SOMEONE WOULD SAY I'M GOING TO COMMIT A CRIME OR NOT COMMIT A CRIME BASED ON THE SENTENCE I HEARD, BUT IT DOES SEND A MESSAGE ABOUT HIGH THE SOCIETY TREATS SUCH A BEHAVIOR.

>> IF WE COULD SEE A RESULT LIKE THE AHMAUD ARBERY CASE, THAT COULD BE SOMETHING THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

OTHERWISE WE'RE SENDING THE MESSAGE THIS IS OKAY.

THIS IS PART AND PARCEL FOR EVERY ASSAULT THAT WALKS THROUGH A COURTROOM DOOR COUNTLESS TIMES A WEEK OR MONTH, AND THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE HERE.

THE COMMONWEALTH MISSED OUT ON THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEND A MESSAGE.

>> Braude: WHEN I SPOKE TO NEW D.A.

HAYDEN ON READY OR TELEVISION -- I CAN'T REMEMBER -- HE DESCRIBED RACIST BEHAVIOR THAT WAS DIRECTED AT HIM WHEN HE WAS A YOUNG MAN.

SO I'M VERY ANXIOUS TO GET HIS THOUGHTS ON WHAT THE RATIONALE WAS.

I WANT TO TURN TO SOMETHING ELSE.

THERE WAS AN INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL AND POWERFUL AND PAINFUL PIECE IN THE "GLOBE" ABOUT ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES WHO DIED BY SUICIDE RECENTLY.

AND SHE WAS HERE.

WE WERE TALKING IN NOVEMBER OF '19, '18, AND HERE IS JUST A TASTE OF WHAT LAUREN SAMSUNG HAD SAMPSON HAD TO SAY.

>> WE'RE HERE A FEW WEEKS AWAY FROM THANKSGIVING, A MOMENT WHERE FOLKS CAME HERE AND FOUGHT TO BUILD NEW LIVES.

WE HAVE A CHOICE BETWEEN OUR IMMIGRANTS' PART OF THE AMERICAN STORY AND AMERICAN FUTURE, OR ARE THEY EVER GOING TO BE PART OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

>> Braude: I MEANT 2018, SORRY.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE COLLEAGUE OF YOURS?

>> THE LARGER COMMUNITY AND HER FAMILY AND HER HUSBAND RECENTLY LOST ATTORNEY LAUREN SAMPSON.

AND ANYONE WHO KNEW HER, IF YOU WERE WATCHING THIS VIDEO, WHAT IS CLEAR TO EVERYONE SHE WAS AN INCREDIBLY PASSIONATE COMMUNITY ADVOCATE.

SHE FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVED SHE GOT TO WAKE UP EVERY DAY AND DO A JOB THAT SHE LOVED AND A JOB THAT MADE A DIFFERENCE.

IT REALLY IS SUCH A TRAGEDY.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO REALLY DESCRIBE THE LOSS THAT WE CURRENTLY FEEL AND THAT I THINK THE COMMUNITY WILL CONTINUE TO FEEL FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.

>> Braude: YOU WERE MENTIONING TO ME BEFORE WE WENT ON THE AIR, THAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE WOULD HAVE HELD FOR LAUREN SAMPSON AND HER WORK.

CAN YOU JUST SHARE THAT FOR A SECOND?

>> YEAH.

LAUREN HAD BEEN WITH US FOR NEARLY FOUR YEARS.

WHEN LAUREN FIRST STARTED, SHE WAS A FELLOW AT LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, AND I WAS HER FIRST SUPERVISOR.

I GOT A CHANCE TO REALLY WATCH HER BLOSSOM, AND TO BE QUITE HONEST, NOT NEED THE LEVEL OF SUPERVISION WE ENVISIONED OR INTENDED.

IMAGINE IF SHE HAD ANOTHER 30 YEARS TO CONTINUE TOB THE INCREDIBLE ADVOCATE THAT SHE WAS?

>> Braude: THAT IS WHAT I WAS THINKING WHEN I READ THE INCREDIBLE PIECE IN THE "GLOBE."

TELL HER FAMILY AND COLLEAGUES THAT WE REALLY MISS HER.

SOPHIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TYWE APPRECIATE TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: WHEN THE G.I.

BILL WAS CREATED IN 1944, THE GOAL WAS TO REWARD VETERANS FOR THEIR SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY, AND MILLIONS DID BENEFIT, GETTING HELP IN BUYING HOMES AND PAYING FOR THEIR EDUCATION.

BUT MANY OF THE 1.8 MILLION BLACK AMERICAN VETERANS WHO FOUGHT IN WORLD WAR II AND KOREA DID NOT.

A RECENT "BOSTON GLOBE" OP-ED DECLARED IT WAS ONE OF THE WORST RACIAL INJUSTICES OF THE 20th CENTURY.

JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS ARE THE AUTHORS OF THAT "GLOBE" PIECE, LINDA BILMES, A FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, AND CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE NAACP, BOTH NOW AT THE HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT.

>> Braude: IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: LINDA, YOU WRITE THAT MORE THAN FOUR MILLION VETERANS WERE ABLE TO BUY A HOME BECAUSE OF THE G.I.

BILL.

MORE THAN EIGHT MILLION BENEFITED IN TERMS OF THEIR EDUCATION.

HOW MANY BLACK AMERICAN VETERANS WERE IN THAT NUMBER?

>> WELL, THERE WERE VERY FEW BLACK AMERICANS WHO WERE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THIS.

WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW FEW, BUT IT WAS A TINY NUMBER.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A SURVEY IN NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY OF 60,000 MORTGAGES, THERE WERE ONLY FEWER THAN A HUNDRED THAT WERE AWARDED TO BLACK VETERANS, AND THIS IS DESPITE THE FACT THAT BLACKS ACTUALLY WERE 10% OF THE ARMED FORCES DURING KOREA AND 8% DURING WORLD WAR II.

>> Braude: WHAT WAS SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THAT NUMBER THAT STRUCK OUT TO ME, LINDA, IS MY SORT OF MINDLESS ASSUMPTION BEFORE I READ YOUR PIECE, IS MOST OF THAT HOUSING DISCRIMINATION WOULD BE IN SOUTHERN STATES.

BUT OBVIOUSLY NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY DON'T FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY.

CORNELL, WHY AND HOW WE E BLACK VETERANS EXCLUDED FROM ALL OF THE BENEFITS OF THE G.I.

BILL?

>> WELL, THESE PROGRAMS WERE ADMINISTERED AT THE STATE LEVEL.

AND SO THE STATE ACTORS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE IN DISCRIMINATION.

SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT -- JUST PAINT A PICTURE, DORI MILLER, WHO WAS AT PEARL HARBOR, A TALL, BLACK MAN, AND WHEN THE JAPANESE ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR, HE GOT BEHIND A MACHINE GUN AND SHOT DOWN AS MANY AS FOUR PLANES.

HE SURVIVED THAT BATTLE AND WENT INTO ANOTHER BATTLE AND SUBSEQUENTLY LOST HIS LIFE.

BUT HAD HE RETURNED TO HIS HOME IN THE DEEP SOUTH, LOCAL OFFICIALS WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO USE HIS BENEFITS TO PURCHASE A HOME, WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO USE THOSE BENEFITS TO EVEN GO TO A COLLEGE, OTHER THAN AN HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY.

SO WHAT LINDA IS DESCRIBING HERE, WHAT WE'RE DESCRIBING HERE IS A NEAR BLANKET EXCLUSION FROM HOUSING BENEFITS AND EDUCATION BENEFITS.

>> Braude: AND THE HOUSING EXCLUSION IN THE NORTHERN STATES WAS A FUNCTION, I'M ASSUMING, WHAT MOST PEOPLE I THINK WATCHING THIS SHOW KNOW ABOUT, WHICH IS RED LINING, NO?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT REALLY WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A LOAN FOR A BLACK PERSON BECAUSE OF WHAT WAS CALLED RED LINING.

THERE WERE JUST A SMALL NUMBER OF AREAS WHERE BLACKS WERE ABLE TO PURCHASE HOMES.

SO IN THIS CASE, EVEN IF A BLACK VETERAN QUALIFIED FOR A V.A.-BACKED LOAN, THAT MEANS THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS PAYING FOR IT AND BACKING AND GUARANTEEING THE LOAN, THE LENDERS WOULDN'T LEND THEM THE MONEY, SO THEY COULDN'T GET A MORTGAGE.

AND THAT PRETTY MUCH HAPPENED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, NOT ONLY IN SOUTHERN STATES.

>> Braude: CORNELL, YOUR GOAL IN THIS WORK IS NOT JUST TO CORRECT THE HISTORY, WHICH YOU'VE DONE, BUT TO ADDRESS THE DISCRIMINATION.

HOW DOES ONE ADDRESS IT?

>> WELL, THERE IS LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS AS WE SPEAK, SPONSORED BY SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK, REPRESENT MOLTON AND JAMES CARVER, THAT WOULD TAKE THE BENEFITS DENIED TO THESE VETERANS AND EXTEND THEM TO THEIR DESCENDENTS.

WHICH IS WAS THE G.I.

BILL DOES.

WHY IS THAT CRITICALLY IMPORTANT?

IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE NOT ONLY WERE THESE VETERANS DENIED THESE BENEFITS, BUT THEIR FAMILIES -- IN OTHER WORDS, TO EXTENT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO BUY HOUSES, THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO PASS THOSE HOUSES TO THEIR CHILDREN, TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO COLLEGE.

AND THIS CONTRIBUTES TO THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP, THE HOUSING GAP.

AND WE HAVE LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS THAT WOULD ADDRESS THIS CLERICAL WRONG.

>> Braude: COULD YOU TELL PEOPLE WHO THE SARGEANT WOODARD WAS?

>> HE SERVED AND WAS RECOGNIZED HONORABLY FOR HIS OFFICE.

HE RETURNED TO SOUTH CAROLINA.

LITERALLY ON THE DAY HE RETURNED, IN HIS UNIFORM, A LOCAL SHERIFF BLINDED HIM.

AND THIS WAS SUCH A RACIAL ATROCITY THAT IT LED TO THE DESEGREGATION OF THE MILITARY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMAN, AND THE OTHER SERVICEMAN WAS A VETERAN WHO APPLIED AND WAS ADMITTED TO GRADUATE SCHOOL AT HARVARD BUT WHO WAS DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO HARVARD AS A CONSEQUENCE OF LOCAL OFFICIALS WHO DID NOT WANT TO SET A PRECEDENT.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, I HAD A JUDGE, WHO WAS THE JUDGE IN THE CASE OF THE GUY WHO MURDERED THE NINE PEOPLE IN THAT BEAUTIFUL CHURCH IN CHARLES TON, AND HE WROTE AN INCREDIBLE BOOK CALLED "UNEXAMPLED COURAGE."

I DON'T KNOW IF EITHER OF YOU READ IT, BUT IT IS STUNNING, AND I WOULD RECOMMEND IT.

LINDA, NOT JUST THIS PIECE, BUT I KNOW YOU TWO HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR A BIT ON RESTORATIVE JUSTICE ISSUES, ON REPARATIONS.

AND I KNOW WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO I THINK MAY BE THE FIRST WHO SUPPORTS A COMMISSION TO STUDY THE ISSUES.

I KNOW THAT IS PENDING BEFORE CONGRESS, TOO.

IS THE ATTITUDE ABOUT AT LEAST STUDYING AND DISCUSSING RESTORATIVE JUSTICE -- HAVE MINDS BEEN CRACKED OPEN, OR HAVE WE MADE VERY LITTLE PROGRESS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT HASN'T BEEN CONSIDERED IS THE FACT THAT WE ACTUALLY PAY REPAIRATORY COMPENSATION FOR A WIDE VARIETY OF HARMS.

WE PAY REPAIRA TORY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO TOXINS, PESTICIDES, AND WE GUARANTEE BENEFITS IN TERMS OF FLOOD INSURANCE, FARM INSURANCE, AGRICULTURAL INSURANCE -- WE TAKE CARE OF A WIDE RANGE OF PEOPLE AS KIND OF A SOCIAL NORM.

AS WE THINK ABOUT THIS ISSUE, WE NEED TO CONSIDER THIS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SOCIAL NORM OF THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS A GENEROUS COUNTRY IN THAT IT TRIES TO PROVIDE SOME FORM OF COMPENSATION FOR PEOPLE WHOSE LIVELIHOOD HAS BEEN HARMED IN SOME WAY.

BRURMTD>> Braude: BUT HAVE THOSE FACTS CRACKED OPEN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE CLOSED HERETOFOFOR, LINDA, OR NO?

>> I THINK THE ATTITUDES OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE CHANGING.

THEY HAVE A GREATER OPENNESS THAN PEOPLE DID A GENERATION AGO.

>> Braude: CORNELL, BEFORE YOU GO, THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, I THINK YOU WERE IN THE LAST DAY OF YOUR HUNGER STRIKE, LEADING UP TO WHAT THE HOPE WAS, THAT CONGRESS WOULD BE PART OF THE GOOD SIDE OF HISTORY AND PASS VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION.

THEY DID NOT DO.

DO YOU, A MONTH OR SO LATER, SEE ANY LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL FOR VOTING RIGHTS?

>> I'M ALWAYS HOPEFUL.

THE REASON WHY I'M HOPEFUL, AS WE SPEAK, WE HAVE MEMBERS OF THE 82nd AIRBORNE, WHO ARE BLACK, AND THEY'RE IN UKRAINE AS WE SPEAK SERVING OUR COUNTRY.

AGAIN, A DEMONSTRATION OF COMMITMENT.

A DEMONSTRATION OF PATRIOTISM.

I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE WHEN THOSE VETS COME BACK, IN THE SAME WAY IN THE 1940s WHEN THE BLACKS RETURNED TO THE COUNTRY, THAT IGNITED A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, IT LED TO A PUSH FOR THIS COUNTRY TO RIGHT HISTORICAL WRONGS.

SO I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT THIS COUNTRY WILL BE REMINDED THAT WE CAN'T PREACH DEMOCRACY ABROAD IF WE DON'T PRACTICE IT AT HOME.

>> Braude: CORNELL WILLIAMS BROOKS AND LINDA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU HAS HIT 100 DAYS IN OFFICE.

ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL LOOK BACK ON HER BIGGEST SUCCESSES AND CHALLENGES SO FAR AND WHAT'S STILL TO COME.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

I'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪