♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> AS THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT RESIGNS IN THE WEST BANK, WE DISCUSS THE LATEST.

AND -- >> SUCCESS FORWARD WILL DEPEND ON THE UNITED STATES.

>> KYIV CALLS FOR AID AS IT SAYS 31,000 UKRAINIANS HAVE DIED SINCE RUSSIA INVADED.

I'M JOINED BY A FRENCH MEP WHO WANTS A EUROPEAN DEFENSE FUND FOR THE EMBATTLED NATION.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, MUHAMMAD YUNUS SPEAKS TO CHRISTIANE, AS HIS SUPPORTERS FEAR A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED JAIL SENTENCE COULD BE IMMINENT.

AND -- >> WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD.

YOU CAN'T HOLD SOMEONE ELSE BACK.

>> WHAT AMERICANS REALLY THINK ABOUT RACE AND IDENTITY.

WALTER ISAACSON TALKED TO MICHELE NORRIS ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, "OUR HIDDEN CONVERSATIONS."

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRIME MINISTER AND HIS ENTIRE GOVERNMENT HAVE HANDED IN THEIR RESIGNATIONS TO PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS.

IT IS A STUNNING SHAKEUP THAT RAISES EVEN MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF GAZA, AND WHAT THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP COULD LOOK LIKE AFTER ISRAEL'S WAR THERE.

NOW, IT COMES AS THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA NEARS 30,000, ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

THE UNITED NATIONS HAS SAID SOME 70% OF THOSE CASUALTIES ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

AND THAT HUMANITARIAN AID DELIVERIES HAVE PLUMMETED BY HALF SINCE JANUARY.

MEANTIME, NEGOTIATIOS FOR THE RELEASE OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES HAVE RESUMED IN QATAR.

MORE THAN 100 REMAIN IN GAZA AFTER THEY WERE TAKEN BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th.

DOWNING ME NOW ON ALL OF THIS IS BARACK RAVID.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT NEGOTIATIONS, A POTENTIAL DEAL THAT FALLS THROUGH.

NOW, ACCORDING TO THE U.S., NEGOTIATORS HAVE REACHED, QUOTE, AN UNDERSTANDING ON THE BROAD CONTOURS OF A POTENTIAL DEAL.

AN ISRAELI DELEGATION LEFT FOR QATAR THIS MORNING.

DOES THIS DEAL LOOK LIKE IT HAS MORE POTENTIAL THAN THE PAST?

>> I THINK THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL, BECAUSE THERE'S A DEADLINE THAT EVERYONE ARE TRYING TO MEET.

AND THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE HOLY MONTH OF RAMADAN ON MARCH 10th.

BOTH ISRAEL AND HAMAS AND OBVIOUSLY THE MEDIATORS OF THE U.S., QATAR, AND EGYPT, ALL HAVE AN INTEREST THAT THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE INTENSE FIGHTING DURING RAMADAN.

EACH FOR THEIR OWN REASONS.

SO, I THINK THAT MAYBE THIS DEADLINE NOW WILL GIVE EVERYONE THE INCENTIVE TO TRY AND CUT THE DEAL, BUT AT LEAST AT THE MOMENT, RIGHT NOW, WHAT I HEAR FROM ISRAELI OFFICIALS THAT THE GAPS ARE STILL WIDE.

I HEAR THE SAME FROM, YOU KNOW, THE U.S., AND FROM OTHER MEDIATORS, SO, THERE'S STILL A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

BUT THERE'S STILL ENOUGH TIME TO GET THE DEAL BEFORE RAMADAN STARTS.

>> THERE WERE REPORTS THAT ISRAEL UPPED THE DEMANDS, SAYING THEY NEED PROOF OF LIFE, AS WELL, FOR THE HOSTAGES.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REPORTING?

>> YEAH -- I'M NOT SURE I WOULD CHARACTERIZE IT AS TOUGHENING THEIR POSITION OR ANYTHING.

IT'S ALMOST -- IT WAS THE SAME PROCESS IN THE PREVIOUS DEAL IN NOVEMBER, SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF LIKE A ROUTINE THING.

I THINK THE MORE INTERESTING THING IS THAT NETANYAHU TOLD ISRAELI NEGOTIATORS BEFORE THEY HEADED TO QATAR THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE WANT ISRAEL TO DEMAND IS AT LEAST SOME OF THE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS THAT WILL BE RELEASED AS PART OF THIS POSSIBLE DEAL, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO SERVED LONGER SENTENCES, WHO ARE MORE IN LEADERSHIP ROLES, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING ISRAELIS, THOSE WILL BE RELEASED BUT NOT TO THE WEST BANK OR TO GAZA, THEY'LL HAVE TO FIND SOME OTHER PLACE TO GO, SOME ARAB COUNTRY IN THE REGION, MAYBE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS MIGHT BE A HURDLE THAT WILL NOT BE -- THAT WILL BE HARD TO PASS.

>> YEAH, THE PRIME MINISTER ALSO OVER THE WEEKEND, CBS "FACE THE NATION" SAID THAT A HOSTAGE DEAL COULD DELAY A RAFAH OPERATION.

LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>> IF WE HAVE A DEAL, IT WILL BE DELAYED SOMEWHAT, BUT IT WILL HAPPEN.

IF WE DON'T HAVE A DEAL, WE'LL DO IT ANYWAY.

IT HAS TO BE DONE.

BECAUSE TOTAL VICTORY IS OUR GOAL, AND TOTAL VICTORY IS WITHIN REACH.

NOT MONTHS AWAY, WEEKS AWAY, ONCE WE AGAIN THE OPERATION.

>> SO, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS POTENTIAL RAFAH OPERATION NOW FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

THE U.S., OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES HAVE WARNED ISRAEL THAT THEY SHOULD NOT PROCEED WITH AN OPERATION INTO RAFAH UNLESS THERE'S A CLEAR PLAN, IN TERMS OF PROTECTING AND EVACUATING CIVILIANS.

THE IDF WAS PRESENTED A PLAN FOR EVACUATING CIVILIANS FROM THE AREAS OF FIGHTING.

WHAT MORE DO WE KNOW ABOUT THIS PLAN?

ACCORDING TO U.S. OFFICIALS, JAKE SULLIVAN OVER THE WEEKEND, SAYS HE HASN'T REALLY SEEN ONE.

>> SO, FIRST, THE PLAN WAS APPROVED LAST NIGHT BY THE ISRAELI WAR CABINET, AND HE TALKS IN BROAD LINES, HE TALKS ABOUT MOVING MORE THAN A MILLION PALESTINIANS IN RAFAH TO AREAS THAT ARE NORTHERN OF THE CITY OF CAN EUNICE AND SOUTHERN OF THE CITY OF GAZA.

TO BE HONEST, IT MIGHT SOUND GOOD ON PAPER.

I'M NOT SURE THIS IS EXECUTABLE.

THERE'S NOT A LOT OF SPACE THERE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

ANOTHER INTERESTING DETAIL IS THAT LAST WEEK, LAST WEDNESDAY, THE IDF CHIEF OF STAFF GENERAL AND DIRECTOR OF THE SECURITY AGENCY SECRETLY TRAVELED TO CAIRO, THEY MET THEIR EGYPTIAN COUNTERPARTS AND PRESENTED THEM WITH THE IDEAS ISRAEL HAS FOR AN OPERATION IN RAFAH, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY PRESENTED IS HOW ISRAEL CLAIMS IT CAN DO SUCH AN OPERATION WITHOUT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIAN REFUGEES JUST BREAKING THE FENCES AND MOVING INTO THE SINAI, INTO EGYPTIAN TERRITORY.

THE ISRAELIS CLAIM THEIR OPERATIONAL PLAN WILL PREVENT IT, OR, AT LEAST DECREASE THE THREAT OF THAT HAPPENING.

>> I WAS LISTENING TO ONE PALESTINIAN EXPERT SAYING THAT HE REALLY IS CONCERNED THAT IF THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT RESOLUTION, A STEP FORWARD, WHETHER IT'S REGARDING THE HOSTAGE DEAL OR STATEMENTS FROM THE IDF REGARDING RAFAH OPERATION, IF NONE OF THIS ISN'T AGREED UPON BY RAMADAN, THAT HE'S REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN GAZA AND IN THE WEST BANK.

ARE THESE CONCERNS LEGITIMATE?

>> IT'S -- NOT ONLY THEY'RE LEGITIMATE, THEY'RE VERY REAL.

AND I WOULD GO EVEN FURTHER.

BECAUSE IF THAT HAPPENS, THEN OBVIOUSLY WE WILL SEE AN ESCALATION IN THE WEST BANK.

AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, WE WILL SEE AN ESCALATION ALL OVER THE REGION.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, SINCE OCTOBER 7th, THERE'S FIGHTING BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH.

THERE'S FIGHTING WITH THE ATTACKS FROM SYRIA.

WE SEE WHAT'S GOING ON IN YEMEN AND IRAQ.

TAKE ALL OF THAT, ADD TO THIS RAMADAN, OKAY?

THAT'S A RECIPE FOR A MUCH, MUCH BIGGER CONFLICT IN THE REGION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

REALLY SOBERING THERE PERSPECTIVE.

WONDERFUL REPORTING, AS ALWAYS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

>>> LET'S GET A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE NOW FROM A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE MIDDLE EAST INITIATIVE, AND SOMEONE WHO IS AN AUTHOR WHO SPECIALIZES IN PALESTINIAN ISSUES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I HOPE YOU HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THE CONVERSATION THERE, IF YOU WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT LAST CONVERSATION, ABOUT WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF THE FIGHTING CONTINUES OR EVEN ESCALATES OVER RAMADAN, THAT THE CONCERN THIS SPREADS BEYOND JUST GAZA, BEYOND JUST THE WEST BANK, BUT THE REGION.

DO YOU SHARE THOSE CONCERNS?

>> NO QUESTION.

I THINK THE RISKS OF AN EXPLOSION IN THE WEST BANK AND EAST JERUSALEM ARE REAL.

PERHAPS EVEN BEFORE RAMADAN.

WE STILL HAVE A COUPLE WEEKS.

AND THE SITUATION, SO MUCH OF IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION IN GAZA, WILL IT GET LESS AWFUL, WILL THERE BE MORE HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES?

WILL WE CONTINUE TO SEE PEOPLE DIE OF HUNGER?

BUT RAMADAN IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE WILL GO TO THEIR MOSQUES, BUT ESPECIALLY TO THE MOSQUE -- ISRAEL HAS ALREADY PUT IN RESTRICTIONS ON -- ON THE NUMBERS OF PALESTINIANS, THE KINDS OF PALESTINIANS WHO CAN ATTEND FRIDAY PRAYERS, TO BE ABLE TO REACH JERUSALEM IN GENERAL.

SO, THAT WILL CREATE TENSION IN AND OF ITSELF.

WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST HOW EVEN WITHOUT EVENTS IN GAZA, THE MOSQUE HAS BEEN A FLASH POINT, BECAUSE OF ISRAELI RESTRICTIONS, AND AS WELL AS PROVOCATIONS.

I THINK WE CAN EXPECT SOME OF THE MORE RADICAL MEMBERS OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT, THERE MAY BE SOMETHING PLANNED FOR THEN.

SO, IT'S DEFINITELY A VERY, VERY SENSITIVE MOMENT, THE MONTH OF RAMADAN.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MOMENT TODAY WITH THE RATHER SURPRISING NEWS, I'D LIKE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON WHETHER YOU WERE SURPRISED BY THE PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER SUBMITTING HIS RRESIGNATION.

WHAT THAT MEANS FOR THE P.A., AND MAHMOUD ABBAS AND HIS FUTURE AS PRESIDENT.

>> YEAH.

YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE OVERSTATE ITS IMPORTANCE.

IT'S PARTLY PERFORMATIVE.

THE RESIGNATION OF THE GOVERNMENT IS SORT OF PROCEDURAL.

ESSENTIALLY, PRESIDENT ABBAS HAS ACCEPTED THEIR RESIGNATION, BUT THEY WILL REMAIN IN PLACE AS A KIND OF CARETAKER GOVERNMENT INDEFINITELY.

COULD BE A WEEK OR TWO WEEKS OR IT COULD BE MANY MONTHS.

WE DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT EXACT TIMING WILL DEPEND.

IF AND WHEN WE DO SEE A NEW GOVERNMENT PUT IN PLACE, IT WILL DEPEND IN VERY LARGE PART ON WHAT HAPPENS IN GAZA.

I THINK THIS IS AN ATTEMPT, REALLY, BY PRESIDENT ABBAS TO DEMONSTRATE HIS RELEVANCE ON ONE HAND, HE'S SORT OF SHAKING THINGS UP, LOOKS LIKE HE'S IN CHARGE.

I THINK HE'S ALSO UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE, NOT JUST DOMESTICALLY, BUT ALSO FROM OUTSIDE ACTORS, PARTICULARLY ARAB STATES, WHO HAVE INDICATED THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PROVIDE FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO GAZA'S RECONSTRUCTION OR TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY MORE BROADLY WITHOUT MAJOR REFORMS IN HOW THE P.A.

OPERATES.

AND SO, I THINK THIS IS A STEP IN WHICH ABBAS IS TRYING TO GET AHEAD OF THE CURVE, SO TO SPEAK, AND SHOW THAT HE'S PUTTING IN PLACE A FUTURE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, EVEN THOUGH THIS ONE IS LIKELY TO REMAIN INDEFINITELY.

>> YEAH.

AND ABBAS WAS ELECTED TO A FOUR-YEAR PRESIDENTIAL TERM BACK IN 2005.

ELECTIONS IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES HAVE NOT BEEN HELD IN NEARLY TWO DECADES.

DO YOU SEE ANY BROAD CONSENSUS AMONG PALESTINIANS MOVING FORWARD IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP, IF THERE ISN'T ANOTHER ELECTION SOONER RATHER THAN LATER?

>> WELL, IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE A MAJOR REFORM OF THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP EVEN BEFORE AN ELECTION CAN TAKE PLACE.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE AGREE IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, TO HOLD AN ELECTION UNDER CURRENT CONDITIONS, OR EVEN IF THE FIGHTING WERE TO STOP TODAY, GAZA IS ESSENTIALLY IN RUINS, AND IS NOT IN ANY CONDITION TO HOST ELECTIONS.

ELECTIONS WITHOUT THE -- WITHOUT THE 2 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP, SO, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE SOME TIME BEFORE WE SEE ELECTIONS.

IT IS A KEY DEMAND OF THE PALESTINIAN PUBLIC.

THEY'VE GROWN QUITE FRUSTRATED WITH MAHMOUD ABBAS' RULE.

HE IS EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR.

AND THEY WANT TO SEE A RENEWAL OF THE LEADERSHIP.

THEY WANT TO SEE SOME NEW BLOOD, SOME FRESH THINKING.

AND IT'S DEFINITELY NOT COMING FROM THIS LEADERSHIP.

BUT EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTIONS CAN HAPPEN, THERE'S A LOT THAT CAN TAKE PLACE TO -- TO PUT THE PALESTINIAN HOUSE IN ORDER.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, RESOLVING THIS ALMOST 17-YEAR RIFT BETWEEN HAMAS AND -- IT'S CLEAR THAT ANY FUTURE GOVERNMENT, EVEN ONE THAT IS APPOINTED BY MAHMOUD ABBAS, IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THE CONSENT AND ACT KWEE YES, SIR SENSE OF HAMAS.

AND FOR IT TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE IN THE WEST BANK AND ESPECIALLY IN GAZA, SO, I THINK THAT'S A STEP THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN YET.

WE DON'T KNOW IF THE GOVERNMENT THAT MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS IN MIND IS ONE THAT IS BEING IRONED OUT WITH HAMAS' CONSENT, AND IF IT'S NOT, I THINK IT WILL BE VERY PROBLEMATIC.

>> YEAH, AND VERY CURIOUS TO SEE HOW THE TWO SIDES, IF AT ALL, COULD WORK TOGETHER IN THE DAY AFTER, BUT THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A MAJOR DISCONNECT, EVEN TALKING ABOUT WHAT A DAY AFTER WOULD LOOK LIKE, WHAT ELECTIONS WOULD LOOK LIKE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT GAZA LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW, AND THE GROWING HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THERE, THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SAYS SANITATION CRISIS IS WIDENING, CASES OF HEPATITIS-A ARE SPREADING, SEVERAL THOUSANDS PEOPLE WITH JAUNDICE.

A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT FOOD SHORTAGES, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ESTIMATES THAT AN ESCALATION OF WAR COULD CAUSE 85,000 DEATHS ALONE.

TALK TO US ABOUT THAT ASPECT OF THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW, AND IN TERMS OF WHAT COMES FIRST, HOW DO YOU EVEN ADDRESS REFORMING A GOVERNMENT WHEN YOU'VE GOT SUCH A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THAT ONLY GETS WORSE BY THE DAY?

>> RIGHT, I MEAN, IT'S A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER.

IT'S A CATASTROPHE.

WE'VE RUN OUT OF NOUNS TO DESCRIBE IT.

IT'S JUST AN ENORMOUS, ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE, THE SCALE OF DESTRUCTION AND DEATH AND DISEASE AND COME MISS RATION THAT'S HAPPENED IN GAZA, AS A RESULT OF THE MASSIVE BOMBING, THE DESTRUCTION OF MOST OF GAZA'S INFRASTRUCTURE, MOST OF GAZA'S HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

THE HEALTH SECTOR IS COLLAPSED.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, GAZA'S UNDER A SIEGE.

I THINK BY NOW, IT'S CLEAR TO MOST PEOPLE THAT THIS IS NOT A FAMINE THAT IS INCIDENTAL.

THIS IS A DIRECT RESULT OF ISRAELI POLICY.

ISRAEL HAS ESSENTIALLY WEAPONIZED MASS STARVATION AND DISEASE IN ORDER TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE POPULATION AS, YOU KNOW, TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES.

I THINK IT'S CLEAR THAT THE HOLDUP IN -- IN THE DELIVERY AND ENTRY AND DISTRIBUTION OF HUMANITARIAN AID AS A RESULT OF ISRAELI POLICY.

WE'VE HEARD THIS FROM U.S.

SENATORS AND OTHERS WHO HAVE GONE OUT TO THE REGION.

SO, IT'S IMPERATIVE, YOU KNOW, EVEN BEFORE WE START THINKING ABOUT A FUTURE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, THAT THAT PROBLEM HAS TO BE ADDRESSED.

AND REALLY ONLY THE UNITED STATES CAN PUT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON ISRAEL TO STOP WEAPONIZING FOOD AND MEDICINE AND TO ALLOW HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IN, REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL AND MILITARY CALCULATIONS.

IT SHOULD BE UNCONSCIONABLE FOR ANYONE TO USE STARVATION AS A WEAPON.

BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN A MUCH SHOPPER APPROACH.

>> YEAH, AND ONE WOULD THINK MAYBE IN TERMS OF FUTURE P.A.

OR REFORMED P.A., THERE'S AN INCENTIVE TO SAY THIS NEVER HAPPENED UNDER OUR LEADERSHIP AND MAYBE OPENS THE DOOR TO REFORM, AFTER ADDRESSING THE CURRENT CRISIS AT HAND.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, AS THE DEATH TOLL MOUNTS IN GAZA, IN UKRAINE, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS, FOR THE FIRST TIME, ANNOUNCED THE TOLL OF RUSSIA'S INVASION.

31,000 UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS DEAD.

IT'S A SHOCKING NUMBER.

U.S. OFFICIALS BELIEVE IS PROBABLY MUCH HIGHER.

WELL, NOW KYIV CONTINUES TO URGE CONGRESS TO PASS THE FOREIGN AID BILL.

ZELENSKYY SAYING MILLIONS COULD DIE WITHOUT IT.

>> SUCCESS FORWARD WILL DEPEND ON THE UNITED STATES.

YES.

NOT DEFENDING -- NOT ONLY DEFENDING, BECAUSE IF YOU DEFEND, JUST DEFEND, YOU GIVE POSSIBILITY TO RUSSIA.

PUSH YOU, YES, SMALL STEPS BACK, BUT ANY WAY, WE WILL HAVE THESE STEPS BACK.

SMALL ONE.

BUT WHEN YOU HAVE STEPS BACK, YOU LOSE PEOPLE.

WE WILL LOSE PEOPLE.

>> AS THE U.S. DITHERS, INSIDE EUROPE, THERE IS A GROWING DESIRE TO STEP UP.

WESTERN LEADERS GATHERING IN PARIS IN A SHOW OF SOLIDARITY WITH UKRAINE.

BUT MY NEXT GUEST WANTS MORE.

A FRENCH MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT HEADS UP THE SECURITY AND DEFENSE SUBCOMMITTEE.

RIGHT NOW, SHE'S FIGHTING FOR A EUROPEAN DEFENSE FUND FOR UKRAINE.

NATALIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM TRASBURG.

BIG DAY IN EUROPE.

SWEDEN FINALLY ENTERING THE ALLIANCE.

A SIGN TO VLADIMIR PUTIN THAT THIS IS CLEARLY NOT THE DIRECTION HE THOUGHT HIS WAR WOULD TAKE.

THAT BEING SAID, WE DO SEE A CHANGE ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN UKRAINE, AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY MAKING CLEAR THAT EVERY DAY THAT GOES BY WITHOUT ADDITIONAL U.S. SUPPORT, THE $60 BILLION SUPPLEMENTAL, IT IS AN ADDITIONAL SETBACK FOR THE COUNTRY.

MY FIRST QUESTION TO YOU, HOW IMPERATIVE IS IT AMONG EUROPEANS THAT THE U.S.

PASS THIS SUPPLEMENTAL BILL?

>> WELL, WE ALL HAVE TO DO MORE TO FOSTER AND SUPPORT UKRAINE.

ALL EUROPEANS, AMERICANS ALIKE.

UKRAINE HAS BEEN ABLE TO RESIST TWO YEARS OF A BRUTAL WAR OF AGGRESSION IMPOSED BY RUSSIA, BUT UKRAINE NEEDS FINANCIAL AND MILITARY ASSISTANCE, AND IT COMES TOO SLOWLY.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO LISTEN TO DISCUSSIONS ON PROCEDURES WITHIN THE U.S. CONGRESS, WHEN LIVES ARE AT STAKE, AND THE FUTURE NOT ONLY OF UKRAINE, BUT OF WESTERN LEADERSHIP IS AT STAKE.

THIS SHOULD BE A PRIORITY FOR ALL OF US.

>> YOU WROTE IN POLITICO EARLIER THIS MONTH, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE SHOULD INCREASE THEIR MILITARY SUPPORT, DITHERING AND DELAYING HAS ONLY GIVEN RUSSIA THE TIME IT NEEDED TO MOBILIZE RESERVES AND PREPARE FOR A RENEWED OFFENSIVE.

AS WE ANSWER UKRAINE'S CALL, HOWEVER, WE MUST BE UNDER NO ILLUSION, THIS WAR WILL BE LONG.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT, IN ADDITION TO SUPPLYING UKRAINE WITH FUNDING, THERE'S ALSO THE NEED TO PROCURE NEW WEAPONS.

HOW REALISTIC IS THAT AMONG EU MEMBERS AND EVEN FOR THE UNITED STATES WITH THE POSSIBLE SCENARIO THAT THIS WAR COULD GO ON FOR A FEW MORE YEARS, IF NOT MORE?

>> WELL, THE WAR IS LONG WHEN WE ARE TOO SLOW.

IF WE HAD PROVIDED ALL THE WEAPONS THAT WE FINALLY DECIDED TO PROVIDE AS EARLY AS 2022, THIS WAR WOULD BE OVER.

RUSSIAN TROOPS WOULD HAVE BEEN PUSHED OUTSIDE UKRAINE.

EVERY SINGLE MILITARY EXPERT TELLS YOU THERE WERE NO REASONS FOR THIS OVERCAUTION THAT WE ALL HAD.

WHY DIDN'T WE SEND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS EARLIER?

WHY DIDN'T WE SEND LONG-RANGE MISSILES EARLIER?

HOW COME THAT FIGHTER JETS ARE NOT ALREADY FLYING OVER UKRAINIAN SKY?

HOW COME IT TAKES SO LONG?

IT ONLY HELPS RUSSIA TURNING INTO A WAR ECONOMY, TURNING INTO A COUNTRY WHICH AT A HIGH COST IS ABLE TO SUSTAIN A WAR.

WE ARE MUCH RICHER THAN RUSSIA.

WE SHOULD TEAM UP AND SPEED UP OUR EFFORTS.

WE CAN AFFORD IT.

WHAT WE CANNOT AFFORD IS A RUSSIAN VICTORY, BECAUSE THE COST WOULD BE MUCH HIGHER FOR OUR ECONOMIES, BUT ALSO FOR OUR SECURITY, AND FOR OUR REPUTATION.

>> YEAH, YOU SEEM TO BE SUPPORTING COMMENTS THAT THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER MADE OVER THE WEEKEND.

HE SAID THAT HALF OF WESTERN MILITARY AID WAS BEING DELIVERED LATE, LEADING TO THE LOSS OF TERRITORY AND PEOPLE.

BUT YOU'RE ALSO CALLING FOR A 1 BILLION EURO EUROPEAN DEFENSE FUND DEDICATED TO UKRAINE ALONE.

TALK TO US ABOUT HOW THAT WOULD WORK AND IF THERE IS SUPPORT TO BACK UP THAT IDEA.

>> YOU MAY KNOW THAT WHEN WE HAD TO FIGHT AGAINST COVID, WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE A 7 BILLION EUROPEAN LOAN, DOING IT TOGETHER.

WHAT WE CAN DO TO FIGHT A VIRUS, WE SHOULD DO IT TO FIGHT AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO OUR SECURITY, OR RELIABILITY AND OUR LEADERSHIP.

100 BILLION EUROS IS NOT MUCH, BUT SO FAR, DEFENSE INDUSTRY IS STILL WAITING FOR ORDERS, AND MINISTERS ARE TELLING US THAT WE SHOULDN'T HAVE DEFICIT.

I CAN HEAR THAT, BUT THERE HAS TO BE A SOLUTION.

AND THE SOLUTION CAN BE FOUND WITH EVEN BE GUARANTEED WITH THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC ASSETS THAT WE HAVE FROZEN HERE IN EUROPE.

>> I KNOW A BIG CONCERN FOR YOU, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE TRAGIC DEATH, I GUESS, THE SLOW MURDER, ONCE COULD DESCRIBE, OF PUTIN CRITIC ALEEI NAVALNY JUST DAYS AGO, IS THAT OF A FORMER GEORGIAN PRESIDENT, WHO IS NOW SERVING A SIX-YEAR SENTENCE IN PRISON, HE'S REPORTEDLY LOST HALF OF HIS BODY WEIGHT SINCE HE WAS ARRESTED IN 2021, A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THE STATE OF HIS HEALTH, AS WELL, AND YOU WROTE A LETTER TO THE EU LAST WEEK, SIGNED BY DOZENS OF EUROPEAN LAWMAKERS, AFTER NAVALNY'S DEATH, TALKING ABOUT HIM, AND YOU SAID IT IS ALL THE MORE SHOCKING THAT A COUNTRY THAT ASPIRES TO SERVE THE EUROPEAN UNION COULD KEEP IN PRISON A MAN WHO WAS ITS PRESIDENT, THAT LED GEORGIA AT THE HEAD OF THE ROSE REVOLUTION AND LED THE FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION AND AGAINST RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE.

TODAY, WE ARE ASK YOUING TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE GEORGIAN AUTHORITIES THAT MAY HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE, AND THAT THIS CHOICE WILL HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

SOME HARSH WORDS THERE, BUT I FEEL THAT WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR THREATS FROM OTHER WESTERN LEADERS WHEN IT CAME TO PEOPLE LIKE ALEXEI NAVALNY, THAT THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES TO PAY, AND MAYBE THEY HAVE COME IN THE FORM OF SANCTIONS, THAT HASN'T BEEN A DETERRENCE FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THESE TYPES OF STATEMENTS WILL BE A DETERRENT FOR LEADERSHIP IN GEORGIA TODAY?

>> WELL, GEORGIA IS NOT RUSSIA.

RUSSIA NEVER -- WAS NEVER A CANDIDATE TO JOIN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND I HAVE A DEEP RESPECT FOR THE GEORGIAN PEOPLE.

THEY DID THE ROSE REVOLUTION.

THEY WENT TO THE STREETS LAST YEAR TO ASK FOR A STRONGER RELATION WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION, WAVING EUROPEAN UNION'S FLAG.

THEY WANT VALUES TO BE RESPECTED.

WE GRANTED THE CANDIDATE STATUS TO GEORGIA.

AND THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE, BUT MIKHAIL WAS THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF GEORGIA.

HE IS IN A BAD HEALTH SITUATION.

I DON'T SEE WHAT GEORGIA WOULD HAVE TO LOSE IN PARDONING HIM, AND SENDING HIM ABROAD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A DECENT MEDICAL TREATMENT.

I SEE WHAT IT WOULD HAVE TO GAIN FROM THIS GESTURE OF PARDON, AND A SHOWING THAT IT STRONGLY BELIEVES IN A EUROPEAN.

SO, I STRONGLY URGE GEORGIAN AUTHORITIES TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS GESTURE, WHICH WOULD BE A VERY POSITIVE SIGNAL IN THE PASS OF GEORGIA TO THE EUROPEAN UNION.

>> AND IF SOMETHING DOES HAPPEN TO HIM, SHOULD THAT CANCEL GEORGIA'S HOPES ANY TIME SOON FOR ACCESSION?

>> WELL, I WANT TO BE AN OPTIMIST.

IF YOU ARE A POLITICIAN, YOU ARE PREPARING FOR GOOD SOLUTIONS.

THERE IS A GOOD SOLUTION THAT IS FEASIBLE, LET'S MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS THROUGHOUT THE WESTERN WORLD WITH GEORGIAN AUTHORITIES TO GIVE GOOD ADVICE TO GEORGIAN AUTHORITIES HAVING FREED, HAVING PARDONED, AND HAVING SENT -- HE'S NOT EVEN A GEORGIAN CITIZEN RIGHT NOW.

HE LOST HIS GEORGIAN CITIZENSHIP WHEN HE BECAME UKRAINIAN.

SO, I DON'T SEE WHAT KIND OF DANGER HE WOULD BE TO GEORGIA TODAY.

>> WE'RE SHOWING A PICTURE OF HIM BEHIND BARS, AWHILE AGO.

HE DEFINITELY DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THAT TODAY.

NATHALIE, THANK YOU.

>>> TURNING NOW TO THE STORY OF A KNOLL BELL LAWYER RAT UNDER FIRE IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

SUPPORTERS SAY MUHAMMAD YUNUS IS BEING TARGETED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER.

IN JANUARY, HE WAS SENTENCED TO SIX MONTHS IN PRISON OVER ALLEGATIONS OF VIOLATING LABOR LAWS.

THE GOVERNMENT DENIES THE CHARGES ARE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

YUNUS PIONEERED MICROFINANCE LOANS THROUGH HIS GRAMEEN BANK, HELPING DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE ESCAPE POVERTY WITH SMALL LOANS.

HE'S NOW OUT ON BAIL AS HE APPEALS HIS SENTENCE.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO HIM FROM KYIV.

>> PROFESSOR YUNUS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR INVITING ME.

>> WE'VE TALKED MANY TIMES OVER THE YEARS ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS IN TERMS OF MICROFINANCE AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE FOR POOR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, AND HOW MANY PEOPLE, MILLIONS YOU'VE RAISED OUT OF POVERTY, BUT NOW YOU ARE THE BUTT, IF YOU LIKE, OF SOME VERY SERIOUS LEGAL CHARGES.

YOU'VE JUST BEEN CONVICTED AND OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS, WE HAVE READ AND SEEN THAT YOUR BUSINESSES HAVE BEEN ENTERED.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON?

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE BUSINESSES?

BECAUSE YOU ALL SAY THAT YOU WERE FORCIBLY ENTERED.

>> YEAH.

TERRIBLE THINGS ARE HAPPENING, AND A GROUP OF PEOPLE, 35 PEOPLE STORM INTO OUR BUILDING, WHICH ACCOMMODATES OUR SOCIAL BUSINESSES THAT WE HAVE CREATED, SOME OF THEM LEADING BUSINESSES IN THE COUNTRY.

SO, EVERYBODY WAS SCARED, EVERYBODY WAS WORRIED, WHAT'S HAPPENING?

AND THEY INTRODUCE THEMSELVES, THEY'RE COMING FROM GRAMEEN BANK, THEY ARE TAKING OVER SOME OF THE COMPANIES, WHICH ARE CREATED BY GRAMEEN BANK AND THEY CLAIM, AND NOW THEY WILL TAKE THEM OVER, TAKE OVER THE MANAGEMENT OF THE COMPANIES.

>> THE GOVERNMENT-APPOINTED CHAIRMAN NOW OF YOUR GRAMEEN BANK SAYS THERE WAS NOTHING FORCEFUL OR ILLEGAL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

AND HAVE YOU BEEN GIVEN COMPENSATION?

HAVE YOU BEEN TOLD WHY YOUR OWN PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND PRIVATE PROPERTY HAS BEEN EXPROCREATED?

>> IF YOU HAVE ANY CLAIM, IF YOU HAVE ANY ISSUE, THESE ARE LEGAL ISSUES, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE COURT, FIND OUT THE SETTLEMENT OF ALL THOSE ISSUES.

YOU CANNOT JUST SUDDENLY STORM INTO A BUILDING AND SAY, WE TAKE IT OVER.

>> BUT ARE THEY NOW STILL IN CONTROL OR DO YOU HAVE YOUR PROPERTIES BACK?

WHAT IS THE STATUS NOW?

>> WE GOT IT BACK, BECAUSE WE HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE ON 15th, INVITED ALL THE PRESS PEOPLE INTO OUR BUILDING AND EXPLAINED THE WHOLE SITUATION, WHAT IS HAPPENING.

HAND SINCE THEN, WE ARE IN CONTROL OF THE BUILDING.

THEY HAVE NOT COME BACK YET.

>> OKAY.

SO, LET ME TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING.

YOU ALSO FACE SOMETHING LIKE 100 CHARGES OVER LABOR LAW VIOLATIONS, YOU'VE BEEN CONVICTED OVER, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE ISSUES, AND MANY, MANY DOZENS OF PROMINENT WORLD LEADERS AND NOBEL LAUREATES FOR, YOU KNOW, YOUR FELLOW NOBEL LAWYER R LAWYER RATS SUCH AS FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS WRITTEN TO THE PRESIDENT AND SAYING TO STOP CONTINUOUS JUDICIAL HARASSMENT.

>> YES.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU NEXT?

DO YOU FACE JAIL OVER THESE CONVICTIONS?

>> I'M ALREADY CONVICTED.

SO, WHEN THE BAIL EXPIRES, THEY WILL GIVE ME NEW BAIL, EXTEND THE BAIL, OR THEY WILL TAKE ME, NOT ONLY ME, A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCUSED WITH ME, WE'D BE ALL INTO JAIL.

AND THERE'S NEW CASES BEGINNING ON MARCH 3rd, THIS IS THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION CASE, WE ARE ACCUSED OF CORRUPTION, MONEY LAUNDERING AND MANY OTHER ISSUES, SO, THAT CASE WILL GO, AND THAT CASE WILL HAVE LONGER PRISON SENTENCES, IF THEY GO THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT WILL END.

>> THE GOVERNMENT AND THE COURT, YOU KNOW, HAVE FOUND YOU GUILTY OF FAILING TO CREATE A WELFARE FUND FOR WORKERS.

I MEAN, THERE ARE A WHOLE LOAD OF CHARGES THEY'VE THROWN AT YOU.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THEM -- AND YOU DENY THEM, BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THESE CHARMS ARE BEING BROUGHT AGAINST YOU?

WHAT IS THE REASON?

>> NOT ONLY I'M DENYING THEM, ALL THE LAWYERS THAT WE'VE CONSULTED, LOCAL CONSULTANTS, LOCAL LAWYERS, INTERNATIONAL LAWYERS, THEY ALL AGREE THAT THERE'S NO BASIS OF THIS CASES AT ALL.

AND IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF -- NEVER HAD A CASE LIKE THAT IN THEIR OWN FRONT, THAT THEY HAVE EVER PROSECUTED ANYBODY LIKE THAT.

SO, THIS IS SOMETHING HAPPENING AS A KIND OF HARASSMENT, AS A KIND OF MAKING SURE THAT I GET THE MESSAGE, OR WE GET THE MESSAGE, THAT WE ARE NOT WELCOME.

>> BUT WHY WOULD YOU NOT BE WELCOME IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY?

I'M GOING TO READ SOMETHING THAT THE PRIME MINISTER SAID ABOUT YOU, SHE CALLED YOU, QUOTE, A BLOOD SUCKER OF THE POOR.

SHE APPARENTLY THOUGHT YOU WERE BECOMING TOO POLITICAL, AND THAT YOU HAD FOUNDED THIS CITIZEN POWER PARTY IN 2007.

SHE'S NOW RUN PRACTICALLY UNOPPOSED AND HAS WON A FIFTH TERM, IS SHE WORRIED THAT YOU ARE CHALLENGING FOR POLITICAL POWER?

>> AH, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE FEELS ABOUT IT, BUT I'M NOT IN THE POLITICAL FIELD.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT I'M INVOLVED IN POLITICS.

AT ONE TIME, I WAS INVITED TO BECOME THE HEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT, I DECLINED IT, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN JOINING POLITICS, I'VE SAID IT REPEATEDLY.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT, BUT I DID IT, SO THAT THERE IS NO CONFUSION ABOUT THAT.

>> PROFESSOR YUNUS, YOU'RE 83 YEARS OLD, YOU DON'T WANT TO WAIT AND BE ARRESTED AND BE SENT TO JAIL AND THEN WHO KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS.

I'M SITTING IN UKRAINE, AND WE KNOW THAT NEXT DOOR IN RUSSIA, THE POLITICAL PRISONER ALEEI NAVALNY WAS JUST KILLED, AND EVERYBODY ACCUSES THE GOVERNMENT OF HAVING DONE IT.

IN RUSSIA.

BUT I WONDER WHETHER YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT LEAVING YOUR COUNTRY.

APPARENTLY YOU'VE BEEN OFFERED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

>> YES, I WAS INVITED BY MANY OF MY FRIENDS ABROAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND BE IN THEIR COUNTRY, THEY WILL PROVIDE ALL THE FACILITIES AND ALL THE WAYS OF MAKING SURE THAT MY PROGRAM CONTINUES AROUND THE WORLD.

I STARTED AS A LOAN PERSON, COMING FROM UNITED STATES, TEACHING AT THE TIME IN TENNESSEE STATE UNIVERSITY, IN 1971.

AT THE END OF 1971, I DECLARED THAT I'M GOING BACK TO BANGLADESH, AND I CAME BACK.

ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS HELP THE PEOPLE, AND I SAW THE FAMINE, I SAW THE DIFFICULTIES, SO, I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I CAN BE USEFUL TO THE POOR PEOPLE.

THAT WAS MY AMBITION, THAT WAS MY LIFE.

THIS IS WHAT I'M DEDICATED TO, AND OUT OF THAT CAME THE MICROCREDIT AND IT BECAME POPULAR, IT BECAME GLOBAL.

AND WE TALK ABOUT CREATING A NEW CIVILIZATION.

THIS IS BASED ON THE PREMISES.

WE HAVE TO REDESIGN THOSE PREMISES, BUILD A NEW CIVILIZATION SO THAT WE ARE NOT GETTING INTO THE TROUBLE THAT WE ARE.

THIS CIVILIZATION IS UP FOR DISASTER.

IT'S A SELF-DESTRUCTIVE CIVILIZATION.

SO, PEOPLE ARE ADOPTING THIS, MICROCREDIT IS BECOMING SO POPULAR IN THE UNITED STATES.

AMERICA HAS JUST GIVEN $4 BILLION IN LOANS.

>> BUT AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A LOT OF BACKLASH IN VARIOUS ACADEMIC CIRCLES ABOUT MICROCREDITING, SAYING THEY LEAVE, YOU KNOW, THE -- THOSE WHO COME FOR A LOAN IMPOVERISHED.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT BACKLASH?

AND IS THAT THE CASE?

>> BACKLASH IS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY MISINTERPRET MICROCREDIT.

WE CREATED MICROCREDIT AS A SOCIAL BUSINESS, WHERE WE DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THE MICROCREDIT.

WE WANTED TO HELP POOR PEOPLE MOVE ON WITH THEIR LIFE AND SO ON.

SOME PEOPLE USE THIS IDEA OF MICROCREDIT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF THE POOR PEOPLE.

THEY TOOK THE LOAN SHARK PART.

AND THAT WAS THE DEPARTURE, ALL THE TROUBLE THAT YOU HEAR ABOUT THE HIGH INTEREST RATE AND EVERYTHING COMING FROM THAT SIDE, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY.

THERE'S THE RIGHT SIDE AND THE WRONG SIDE.

YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE MONEY OUT OF MICROCREDIT.

YOU WANT TO MAKE IT AS LOW AS POSSIBLE, JUST TO COVER THE COST OF YOUR OPERATION, THAT'S ALL, AND YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT KIND OF CHARITY PROGRAM.

THAT'S ALSO WE DON'T LIKE.

CHARITY PROGRAM DOESN'T CONTINUE, IT DOESN'T HAVE A LONG LIFE, SO, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE IT'S A SUSTAINABLE PROGRAM.

SO, THAT'S THE MICROCREDIT THAT WE PROVIDE.

THE MICROCREDIT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

SO, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN BUSY, WE HAVE BEEN DOING, VERY HAPPY.

WE GET VERY GOOD WARM RESPONSE GLOBALLY, BUT SOMEHOW, THINGS DON'T GO RIGHT IN MY OWN COUNTRY.

>> PROFESSOR YUNUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TALKING TO ME.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, WE TURN NOW TO RACE AND IDENTITY IN AMERICA, WHICH OUR NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN EXPLORING FOR OVER A DECADE.

THE AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST MICHELE NORRIS WAS ON HER FIRST BOOK TOUR IN 2010 WHEN SHE BEGAN INVITING STRANGERS TO SEND HER SIX WORDS ABOUT RACE ON A POSTCARD.

WELL, SHE ENDED UP COLLECTING MORE THAN HALF A MILLION PERSONAL STORIES.

IT'S THE BASIS FOR HER LATEST BOOK, "OUR HIDDEN CONVERSATIONS, KWS AND SHE JOINED WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

AND MICHELE NORRIS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> SO GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> YOU'VE GOT THIS WONDERFUL BEST SELLER OF A BOOK AND IT'S BASED ON A PROJECT CALLED "THE RACE CARD PROJECT."

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS.

>> IT STARTED WITH POSTCARDS.

I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT MY FAMILY'S VERY COMPLEX RACIAL LEGACY IN 2010, AND WHEN I WENT OUT IN THE WORLD TO TALK ABOUT THAT BOOK, I KNEW I WOULD BE TALKING TO AUDIENCES ABOUT RACE.

I WAS HOSTING A SHOW AT THAT TIME CALLED "ALL THINGS CONSIDERED" AND IT WAS A CHANCE FOR ME TO LEAVE THE STUDIO AND TO GET OUT INTO AMERICA.

A BLACK FAMILY HAD JUST MOVED INTO THE WHITE HOUSE THEN.

BUT I THOUGHT NO ONE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT RACE, AND SO, I THOUGHT THEY NEEDED AN INVITATION, AN ON-RAMP, AND SO, I PRINTED POSTCARDS AT A KINKOS ON WISCONSIN AVENUE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AND THE POSTCARDS WERE SIMPLE.

I HAVE ONE WITH ME.

THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.

AND THEY SAID, "RACE YOUR THOUGHTS, SIX WORDS, PLEASE SEND."

AND THE IDEA IS PEOPLE WOULD TAKE THIS BIG TOXIC SUBJECT AND TRY TO DISTILL IT INTO THE THING THAT WAS MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM.

THEIR MEMORY, THEIR LAMENT, THEIR QUESTION, THEIR ANTHEM.

AND I HAD NO IDEA IF PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY SEND THE CARDS BACK, AND OF THE 200 CARDS THAT I PRINTED INITIALLY, ABOUT 30% OF THEM CAME BACK TO ME.

SOME OF THEM HANDED TO ME AT BOOK EVENTS, BUT MANY OF THEM, PEOPLE WOULD FIND A STAMP, THEY WOULD WRITE THEIR SIX WORDS, THEY WOULD FIND A STAMP, THEY WOULD FIND A MAILBOX AND THEY WOULD SEND THEM TO ME.

AND BECAUSE SO MANY OF THOSE CARDS WERE SO INTERESTING FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, I -- I NEED TO KEEP GOING WITH THIS.

>> AND IT BECAME WHAT WAS KNOWN AS "THE RACE CARD PROJECT."

YOU MADE IT LARGER THAN THAT, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, WELL, I CALLED IT "THE RACE CARD PROJECT" FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND MAYBE -- I DIDN'T KNOW IT WOULD TURN INTO, BUT MAYBE IN MY THOUGHT PROCESS I WAS THINKING, IF I CALL IT A PROJECT, THEN IT'S AN ACTUAL THING.

AND I HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, GO THROUGH WITH IT.

BUT I REALLY STARTED TO SEE IT AS A PROJECT VERY QUICKLY, WALTER, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE CARDS CAME BACK, VIEWERS MAY BE THINKING, WHAT CAN YOU SAY IN JUST SIX WORDS?

PEOPLE WERE REALLY UNBURDENING THEMSELVES.

REASON I ENDED A SWEET RELATIONSHIP.

WHITE, NOT ALLOWED TO BE PROUD.

I'M ONLY ASIAN WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT.

LAST NIGHT, THEY BURNED ROSCOE'S HOUSE.

VERY INTIMATE STORIES, VERY OPEN STORIES, AND THEN EVENTUALLY WE CREATED A WEBSITE, BECAUSE WE WANTED TO SHARE THE STORIES WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND THAT'S WHEN THINGS GOT INTERESTING.

AS MUCH AS I LOVE THE POSTCARDS AND THE HANDWRITING ON THE POSTCARDS, AND WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS WAITING TO BE ARCHIVED, ONCE PEOPLE STARTED SENDING IN THE SUBMISSIONS DIGITALLY, THEY COULD SEND A BACK STORY.

THEY COULD EXPLAIN WHAT THEY MEANT BY THEIR SIX WORDS.

AND THAT'S WHEN THINGS GOT DEEP AND INTERESTING AND THEY WOULD LEAVE ABOUT EMAIL ADDRESS AND THEIR NAME, THIS IS THE OTHER THING THAT WAS AMAZING ABOUT THIS, PEOPLE WEREN'T SENDING THESE STORIES IN ANONYMOUSLY.

THEY WERE SIGNING THEIR NAMES, ONCE THEY STARTED SENDING THEM IN DIGITALLY, LEAVING THEIR CONTACT INFORMATION SO I COULD CALL THEM AND DO ORAL HISTORIES WITH THEM.

>> LET ME WRITE YOU SOMETHING FROM THE INTRODUCTION.

YOU SAID, THESE STORIES REVEALED AN OBSCURED TRUTH.

PEOPLE WEREN'T RUNNING AWAY FROM TALKING ABOUT RACE.

A LOT OF THEM WERE DESPERATE TO DISCUSS IT THROUGH THE PRISM OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

THE CARDS ARE VERY INTIMATE.

YOU WILL SEE THAT, IF YOU GO TO THE WEBSITE, YOU WILL SEE THAT IF YOU READ THE BOOK.

PEOPLE ARE WRITING ABOUT THEIR CHILDREN.

THEIR MARRIAGE.

THEIR COWORKERS.

THEIR COMMUTE.

THE VISIT THEY MADE TO THE HOSPITAL AND HOW THEY WERE TREATED WHEN THEY TRIED TO CHECK IN.

THEIR STORIES THAT ARE SO MUCH CLOSER TO THE GROUND, AND AS A JOURNALIST, IT WAS VERY HUMBLING FOR ME, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT RACE FOR YEARS, BUT I REALIZE THAT I DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO CERTAIN PARTS OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.

WHEN WE WRITE ABOUT RACE AS JOURNALISTS, WE'RE USUALLY DOING IT BECAUSE SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED THAT MERITS OUR ATTENTION.

AND SO, WE'RE WRITING ABOUT SOMEONE CROSSING A MILESTONE.

SOMEONE SAYING SOMETHING THAT MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID.

SOMETHING BAD HAPPENING SOMEWHERE.

IN THIS CASE, PEOPLE ARE SETTING THE -- THEIR OWN AGENDA, AND THEY'RE TELLING US, THIS IS WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO ME.

AND MANY OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WRITE ABOUT, ADOPTION, BLENDED FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO BE IN AMERICA AFTER 9/11 IF YOU WERE MUSLIM OR NORTH AFRICAN, OR PART OF THE ARAB DIASPARA.

THIS PROJECT WAS LIKE FINDING A TAP ROOT INTO AN AMERICA THAT EVEN THOUGH I HAVE BEEN PRACTICING THE CRAFT OF JOURNALISM FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES, THIS WAS A TAP ROOT INTO AN AMERICA THAT I DIDN'T PREVIOUSLY HAVE ACCESS TO.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT AMERICANS WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT RACE, BUT THEY'RE INHIBITED ON BOTH SIDES?

>> YES.

I DO.

AND I -- IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE WE SAY WE DON'T TALK ABOUT RACE, BUT ACTUALLY, IF YOU WATCH THE NEWS, IF YOU LISTEN TO PEOPLE, WE'RE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT RACE AND WE'RE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT IDENTITY.

IT'S A CONTINUE YUM.

PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT IT ACROSS DIFFERENCE, THOUGH, AND THAT'S THE THING THAT I HOPE THAT THIS BOOK WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO DO, IS TO KIND OF PEER OVER THE FENCE.

PEOPLE TALK AMONGST THEMSELVES ABOUT RACE AND IDENTITY IN THEIR TRIBE IN THEIR COHORT, IN THEIR COMFORTABLE CIRCLE, IN THEIR FAMILY, BUT THEY DON'T ALWAYS REACH ACROSS THAT, YOU KNOW, REACH ACROSS SOME SORT OF CULTURAL BRIDGE TO TALK TO SOMEONE ELSE.

>> SUDDENLY, IT FEELS THERE'S A BACKLASH AGAINST THAT, THAT PEOPLE JUST DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

WHAT'S CAUSING THAT BACKLASH, OR -- AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

>> THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS CAUSING THE BACKLASH.

WE SAW AMERICA GO THROUGH AN INTERESTING MOMENT AFTER THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND IT WAS AN AWAKENING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE STARTED TO PUT BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGNS ON THEIR CARS AND THEIR WINDOWS.

A LOT OF COMPANIES WERE MAKING COMMITMENTS AND INVESTMENTS IN TRYING TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THESE ISSUES THAT DIVIDE US.

AND THEN THERE WAS A BACKLASH OR PERHAPS ALSO A LEVEL OF EXHAUSTION.

AND I'M REALLY HONEST ABOUT THIS, AND I DON'T -- IT IS EXHAUSTING.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE EXHAUSTED BY THE TOPIC.

RACIAL EXHAUSTION IS A REAL THING.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE WE'RE NOT SOLVING THE PROBLEM, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WHITE FEEL LIKE WHEN WE DO DISCUSS THE PROBLEM, THE FINGERS ARE ALWAYS POINTED AT THEM.

AND THERE'S NO WAY FOR THEM TO ENTER THE CONVERSATION WITHOUT FEELING SHAME, GUILT, ANGER.

SO, THEY'RE LIKE, I DON'T EVEN WANT TO BE PART OF THIS.

>> LET'S DRILL DOWN ON THAT WITH WHITE PEOPLE FEELING UNCOMFORTABLE THAT THEY'RE BEING BLAMED, AND DO YOU THINK THAT THEY HAVE FELT THAT -- A LOT OF PEOPLE FELT THAT THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT RACE HONESTLY, AND THAT MAYBE WE REALLY NEED TO LANCE THE BOIL, I MEAN, GO EVEN DEEPER ON THIS CONVERSATION.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AND IT'S -- I'M NOT SPEAKING IN GENERALIZATIONS, I'M NOT TRYING TO SPEAK FOR ALL WHITE PEOPLE, I WANT TO BE CLEAR ON THAT, BUT THE -- THE THING THAT I'VE LEARNED IN THIS PROJECT CAME OUT OF A SURPRISING RESULT.

THE MAJORITY OF THE YEARS THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS, 14 YEARS, THE MAJORITY OF THE SUBMISSIONS HAVE COME FROM WHITE AMERICANS, SO, I HAVE HAD A RATHER UNIQUE PERCH HERE IN LISTENING TO WHITE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT RACE.

THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING I ANTICIPATED.

SO, I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT DEMENTIONS TO THIS.

FEAR AROUND RACE IS ONE OF THEM.

THE FEAR THAT YOU'LL SAY THE WRONG THING.

THAT IS A JUSTIFIABLE FEAR, BECAUSE IF YOU TRY TO EXPRESS YOURSELF AND YOU DON'T SAY SOMETHING -- IF YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT'S -- YOU CAN GET CANCELED.

YOU CAN FACE A LEVEL OF REJECTION.

YOU WILL BE LABELED.

AND SO, SOME PEOPLE THINK, I DON'T EVEN WANT TO BE PART OF THAT.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE DO PARTICIPATE AND THEY FEEL LIKE THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.

THAT PEOPLE WANT THIS TO BE SOLVED.

THAT'S WHERE THE NOTION OF AMERICA BEING POST-RACIAL, PERHAPS, CAME FROM.

THEY WANT TO JUST GET OVER THIS HILL.

AND THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S EASY TO DO.

SO, SINCE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN QUICKLY, PEOPLE PULL AWAY.

WE SHOULD BE HONEST THAT THERE'S ANOTHER CATEGORY OF PEOPLE IN THAT BACKLASH, THAT FEEL COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY.

THAT ARE ACTUALLY INVESTED IN A DIVIDED AMERICA.

AND SO, THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE NECESSARILY TO COME TOGETHER TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK TOGETHER.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT RACE.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THAT CATEGORY WHO ARE INVESTED IN A DIVIDED AMERICA ARE BUSY AT WORK.

THEY'RE SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY.

THEY'RE DOING FOCUS GROUPS.

THEY'RE FIGURING OUT HOW TO MESSAGE TO GIN UP PEOPLE'S FEARS, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE REMAIN DIVIDED.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INVESTED IN A DIVIDED AMERICA ARE USUALLY DOING THAT BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THEM.

AND I -- IT CAN BE EASY TO PREY UPON PEOPLE'S FEARS ON THESE ISSUES.

I WRITE HONESTLY ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK.

IF YOU HAVE -- IF YOU HAVE SPENT TIME IN AMERICA, IN OUR WONDERFUL COUNTRY, IF YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD ITS HISTORY AND ITS REALITY THROUGH THE '40s, '50s, UP UNTIL NOW, AND YOU HAVE LOOKED AT HOW MINORITIES IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE BEEN TREATED OVER TIME, YOU MIGHT REASONABLY BE CONCERNED ABOUT BECOMING ONE.

AND THAT FEAR IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE FERTILIZED.

AND CAN ALSO BE EXPLOITED.

AND IN SOME OF THOSE CASES, WHEN YOU ACTUALLY TALK TO THEM, WHEN THEY ACTUALLY FACE THEIR FEAR AND YOU TALK TO THEM ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE AFRAID OF, IT'S INTERESTING, THEY'RE AFRAID OF PAYBACK IN SOME CASES.

HOW WILL I WILL TREATED IF I'M IN THE MINORITY STATUS?

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO MY KIDS?

WILL IT BE HARDER FOR THEM TO MOVE THROUGH LIFE?

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU KNOW, THESE CARDS ARE -- THE STORIES FEEL LIKE THEY'RE A CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF AN AT-PRESENT MINORITY, WHO ARE PART OF, YOU KNOW, ARE BLACK, LATINO, ASIAN, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE BLACK, WHO WILL RESPOND IN A WAY THAT SUGGEST, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR PAYBACK.

WE'RE LOOKING FOR PAYCHECKS.

WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD.

AND IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD, YOU CAN'T HOLD SOMEONE ELSE BACK.

>> YOU START THIS BOOK WITH A QUOTE FROM THE POET LUCILLE CLIFTON, SORT OF A PERSONAL THING, IT SAYS, THEY ASKED ME TO REMEMBER THEIR MEMORIES, AND I KEEP ON REMEMBERING MINE.

I'M GOING TO TURN IT BACK TO YOU, PERSONALLY, HOW DID YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS, YOUR FATHER, YOUR GRANDMOTHER, PROVOKE THIS PROJECT?

>> THERE WERE THINGS IN MY FAMILY THAT WERE NOT TALKED ABOUT.

I LEARNED THAT MY FATHER WAS TRYING TO ENTER A BUILDING WHERE RETURNING VETERANS, AND HE WAS ONE OF THEM, HE SERVED IN THE NAVY, WERE ENTERING A BUILDING IN BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, TO LEARN ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION IN ORDER TO PASS POLL TESTS.

AND WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO ENTER THAT BUILDING, POLICE OFFICERS TRIED TO STOP HIM AND A SCUFFLE ENSUED AND MY FATHER WAS WOUNDED WHEN A BULLET GRAZED THE SIDE OF HIS LEG.

HE HAD A SCAR ON HIS LEG, KNEW THAT.

BUT HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT THAT.

HE NEVER, EVER TALKED ABOUT THAT INCIDENT.

AND I FOUND OUT ABOUT IT FROM ONE CAN WHO SHARED IT WITH ME.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WHOSE FAMILIES EXPERIENCED THE HORRORS OF LIFE IN JIM CROW AMERICA DIDN'T ALWAYS TELL THEIR CHILDREN ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THAT, BECAUSE THEY WANTED THE NEXT GENERATION TO SOAR.

AND I REALIZED, I BENEFITED FROM THAT IN SOME WAYS, BECAUSE MY PARENTS DIDN'T WANT ME TO CARRY THAT ANGER FORWARD.

THEY WANTED ME TO SEE THE POSSIBILITIES IN AMERICA.

BUT I ALSO HAVE BENEFITED FROM UNDERSTANDING THE STORIES NOW AND BEING ABLE TO SHARE THEM WITH MY OWN CHILDREN, NOT SO THEY WILL BE ANGRY, BUT SO THEY UNDERSTAND THE PATH THAT WE HAVE TRAVELED AS A COUNTRY, AND THE PATH THAT WE HAVE TRAVELED AS A NATION.

AND THAT SPEAKS TO THIS MOMENT WE'RE IN WHERE SO MANY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE WORST PARTS OF OUR HISTORY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO LOOK BACK IN HISTORY AND TO SEE AND TALK ABOUT AND THINK ABOUT WHERE WE FAILED, AND THERE'S A CHAPTER IN YOUR BOOK WHICH I LOVE, WHICH IS CALLED "MEMORY WARS."

AND IT'S REALLY ABOUT, HOW DO WE TEACH THE CIVIL WAR, HOW DO WE TEACH, MORE IMPORTANTLY, SLAVERY?

AMERICA'S NEVER HAD A COMPREHENSIVE AND WIDELY EMBRACED VIEW OF SLAVERY AND THE LASTING IMPACT.

THERE'S A SIMPLE REASON.

THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT YET HAVE THE STOMACH TO STARE DIRECTLY AT THE EVIL ON WHICH THIS GREAT COUNTRY STANDS.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME, AND AS WRESTLE WITH THE FACT THAT EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU, THAT COULD ALSO BECOME SOMETHING THAT HAS NOW BEEN VERY DIVISIVE TO TALK ABOUT HOW WE'RE ALL BUILT ON AN EVIL FOUNDATION?

>> IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT MOMENT TO DO IT RIGHT NOW, IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE THERE ARE THESE WARS OVER THE TEACHING OF HISTORY, BECAUSE THERE IS A CONCERTED EFFORT TO ERASE THAT HISTORY OR SUPPRESS THAT HISTORY.

THERE HAVE BEEN MOMENTS OF POSSIBILITY THAT HAVE BEEN PERHAPS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.

AND I HOPE THAT WE FACE ONE OF THESE MOMENTS AGAIN, AND SOON, SO THAT WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO LOOK AT A HISTORY THAT WE CAN'T ERASE.

YOU KNOW, OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MOVE PAST THIS, AND I COMPARE AMERICA TO GERMANY, NOT TO COMPARE THE HOLOCAUST AND SLAVERY.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SET UP COMPARATIVE EVILS, BUT CONTRASTING -- CONTRASTING RESPONSES TO HISTORICAL FISSURE.

AND AMERICA IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN GERMANY.

GERMANY DECIDED, AND IN SOME WAYS, THEY DID IT BECAUSE THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS STANDING OVER THEIR SHOULDER AND POINTING A FINGER AT THEM, BUT THEY DECIDED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MOVE FORWARD BY LOOKING AT A DIFFICULT PATH THROUGH A LENS OF HONOR AND ATONEMENT FOR PEOPLE -- FOR THE VICTIMS, PEOPLE WHO WERE JEWISH, WHO WERE ROMA, WHO WERE QUEER, WHO WE NOW CALL TRANS, WHO WERE MARGINALIZED, IN SOME CASES WERE DISABLED, AND THEY HONOR THEM AND THEY TEACH THAT HISTORY IN SCHOOLS.

IF YOU BECOME A POLICE OFFICER, YOU LEARN ABOUT THIS HISTORY.

IF YOU ENTER THE MILITARY, YOU LEARN ABOUT THIS HISTORY.

WE HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO DO THAT, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HEARD ME SAY THIS, WALTER, IN AMERICA, IT FEELS LIKE WE ARE THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF AMNESIA.

WE HAVE GONE THROUGH A WILLFUL AMNESIA, BECAUSE THAT IS A VERY DIFFICULT STORY TO TELL, UNDERSTANDABLY DIFFICULT STORY TO TELL.

BUT UNLESS WE DO TELL THAT STORY, IT IS HARD FOR US TO REACH ANY KIND OF RECONCILIATION WITH THE PAST AND VERY HARD FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE LINGERING IMPACTS OF SLAVERY, THE LINGERING IMPACTS OF BONDAGE, THE LINGERS IMPACTS OF THE PERIOD AFTER SLAVERY, THROUGH RECONSTRUCTION AND THROUGH JIM CROW AMERICA.

PEOPLE OFTEN WANT TO SUPPRESS THIS HISTORY, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO FEEL BAD.

THEY DON'T WANT TO FEEL BAD THEMSELVES.

THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO FEEL BAD.

IT ROBS OTHER PEOPLE OF THE OPPORTUNITY, THOUGH, TO UNDERSTAND THEIR HISTORY, AND TO UNDERSTAND THE TRIUMPH OVER THOSE THINGS.

FOR INSTANCE, AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN, YOU ROB PEOPLE OF THE TRIUMPH OF UNDERSTANDING HOW THEY OVERCAME THAT HISTORY, IF YOU LOOK AT LITERACY IN AMERICA, BLACK PEOPLE WHO CAME TO AMERICA AS THE ENSLAVED WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEARN HOW TO READ AND WRITE.

AFTER SLAVERY, THERE WAS AN ALMOST 7,000% INCREASE IN LITERACY, BECAUSE THERE WAS A BARN BURNING EFFORT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE WERE HUNGRY TO LEARN, TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES.

THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE STORY TO TELL.

SO, YOU CAN BALANCE, YES, YOU HAVE TO BE CLEAR-EYED AND TALK ABOUT THE HORRORS OF SLAVERY, BUT YOU CAN ALSO TALK ABOUT THE MORAL TRIUMPHS, THE HUMAN TRIUMPHS, AND YOU CAN ALSO, IN LOOKING BACK AT THE HORRORS, UNDERSTAND WHERE WE HAVE COME AS A COUNTRY.

AND YOU -- IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU STARTED AND WHERE WE HAVE LANDED, AND WHERE WE CAN GO, IF WE ARE WILLING TO LOOK AT THIS HISTORY HONESTLY, IT IS A BENCHMARK THAT HELPS YOU APPRECIATE WHERE YOU ARE NOW, AND SET YOUR STEPS, ORDER YOUR STEPS SO YOU CAN GET TO SOMEWHERE BETTER AND DO THAT IN A WAY THAT PERHAPS DOES NOT MARGINALIZE PEOPLE IN THE SAME WAY, IT DOES NOT DEMONIZE PEOPLE IN THE SAME WAY.

AND ALLOWS PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER, EVEN IF THEY DON'T AGREE, AND IN A DIVIDED AMERICA, WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN WORK TOGETHER, EVEN WITH -- IF WE DON'T AGREE.

>> SO, AFTER ALL OF THIS, WHAT SIX WORDS WOULD YOU OFFER UP TODAY FOR YOU?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE DO WANT IT TO BE OVER.

THAT'S WHERE THE POST-RACIAL, THE IDEA OF A POST-RACIAL AMERICA COMES FROM, THAT'S WHERE THE FIGHTS OVER SO-CALLED CRITICAL RACE THEORY COME FROM, WE WANT IT TO BE OVER, BUT THERE'S STILL MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

THAT'S MY SIX WORDS.

STILL MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT IT HONESTLY WOULD BE MINE, AND THANK YOU FOR DOING SO.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> STILL MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

REALLY FASCINATING AND INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

>>> AND FINALLY FOR US, POTENTIALLY LIFE-CHANGING NEWS FOR CHILDREN WITH FOOD ALLERGIES.

NEW DATA SHOWS REGULARLY INJECTING A KNOWN MEDICINE MAY HELP PREVENT SEVERE REACTIONS AFTER ACCIDENTAL INGESTION.

AS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH FOOD ALLERGIES CONTINUES TO CLIMB, THIS DRUG COULD EASE THE ANXIETY OF SO MANY WHO GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO AVOID THEIR ALLERGEN, LIKE NEVER EATING IN RESTAURANTS.

ONE OF THE LEADING DOCTORS CALLED IT AN AMAZING STEP FORWARD IN OUR FIELD.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

GOOD NIGHT.