JON: I'’M JON KELLER.

TONIGHT, WHO BENEFITS FROM THE GOVERNOR'’S NEW TAX CUT PLAN?

DO DOESN'’T BENEFIT?

AND HOW IS IT GOING DOWN ON BEACON HILL?

55 YEARS AFTER WALTER CRONKITE FAMOUSLY TURNED PUBLIC OPINION AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR, DO AMERICANS HAVE ANY TRUST IN WHAT JOURNALISTS BELIEVE TODAY?

♪ JON: WELCOME TO "GREATER BOSTON."

WHILE A LOT OF US HAVE NOT GOTTEN STARTED ON HER TAX RETURNS, THE GOVERNOR IS PROPOSING A $742 MILLION PACKAGE OF TAX CUTS THAT COULD LOWER WHAT YOU OWE NEXT YEAR.

EARLIER TODAY, SHE ARGUED HER PLAN IS NECESSARY TO HELP TAX PLAYERS STAY AFLOAT AMID RISING INFLATION.

GOVERNOR HEALEY: EVERYWHERE WE GO, WE HEAR ABOUT THE COST OF LIVINGA ND HOW IT IS IMPACTING COMMUNITIES, SKYROCKETING PAST PEOPLE.

THE YOUNG MOTHER THAT WANTS TO RETURN TO HER JOB, BUT CANNOT AFFORD CHILDCARE.

THE COLLEGE GRADUATE ECONOMIC HIS RENTAND IS STUDENT LOAN PAYMENTS.

THE SENIOR THAT WANTS TO STAY IN THE HOME WHERE THEY RAISED THEIR FAMILY BUT CANNOT KEEP UP WITH PROPERTY TAXES.

THE SMALL BUSINESS OWNER CONTEMPLATING MOVING TO ANOTHER STATE THAT HAS LESS BURDENSOME TAXES.

JON: THE BULK OF THE PROPOSAL, $458 MILLION WORTH, IS A CHILD AND FAMILY TAX CREDIT THAT WOULD AFFECT MORE THAN 700,000 TAXPAYERS.

IT WOULD CREDIT FAMILIES $600 FOR DEPENDENTS, WHO ARE CHILDREN UNDER 13 AND A SENIOR DEPENDENTS WHO ARE 65 AND UP.

IT IS SIMILAR TO A NEARLY $700 MILLION TAX PACKAGE PROPOSED LAST YEAR BY GOVERNOR BAKER.

IT WOULD ALSO INCREASE THE STATE'’S RENTAL DEDUCTION FROM $3000 TO $4000.

IT WOULD ELIMINATE THE ESTATE TAX FOR ESTATES UP TO $3 MILLION.

IT CUTS THE TAX RATE ON SHORT-TERM CAPITAL GAINS.

EXPANDS OF THE APPRENTICESHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM.

AND RAISES THAT CAP ON HOUSING DEVELOPMENT INCENTIVE PROGRAM CREDITS.

AND THAT IS ONLY PART OF WHAT IS IN IT.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS OUR EVAN HOROWITZ THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR , OF THE CENTER FOR STATE POLICY ANALYSIS AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY.

AND GBH NEWS STATE HOUSE REPORTER KATIE LANNAN.

KATIE, A LOT OF THESE PROPOSALS, TAX CREDITS FOR PEOPLE WHO CARE FOR KIDS, SENIORS AND DISABLED ADULTS, THE RENTAL DEDUCTIONS, THESE ARE NOT REALLY CONTROVERSIAL ON BEACON HILL.

THEY HAVE DRAWN SUPPORT IN THE PAST.

BUT THE GOVERNOR'’S PROPOSAL TO REDUCE THE ESTATE AND CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATES ARE LIKELY TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.

WHAT IS THE IMMEDIATE FALLOUT?

KATIE: RIGHT AWAY WE SAW THE CONSERVATIVE MASSACHUSETTS FISCAL ALLIANCE PRAISING HER FOR INCLUDING THESE, AND THE RAISE UP MASSACHUSETTS COALITION THAT HELPED TO PASS THE NEW MILLIONAIRES TAX KNOCK HER FOR IT, WHICH IS NOT USUALLY HOW A DEMOCRAT'’S ACTIONS ARE RESPONDED TO.

THE LEGISLATURE, WE HAVE NOT SEEN THEM PLAY THEIR HAND ON THIS YET.

THE SENATE PRESIDENT AND MARIANO ARE SAYING THAT THEY WANT TO LOOK AT IT.

THEY DID NOT RULE OUT IMMEDIATELY THESE THINGS LIKE THE SHORT-TERM CAPITAL GAINS TAX CUT, WHICH THEY DID GO ALONG WITH WHEN GOVERNOR BAKER PROPOSED IT.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THEY ARE MORE AMENABLE TO IT IN ANY WAY, NOW THAT IT IS IS A DEMOCRAT SUGGESTING IT.

JON: THAT IS NOT HOW IT HAS WORKED IN THE PAST.

EVAN, YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THESE PROPOSALS FOR A A WHILE IN A REPORT THAT YOU ISSUED LAST JUNE.

YOU DEFINED IT AS ASSEMBLING A PACKAGE THAT BENEFITS THE MOST VULNERABLE, IMPROVES THE STATE'’S COMPETITIVENESS AND AVOIDS LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.

DOES IT WORK LIKE THAT?

EVAN: IT VARIES.

THE HEART OF IT IS THE CHILD INDEPENDENT TAX CREDIT.

THIS IS JUST MONEY THAT WILL GO TO EVERY FAMILY THAT HAS KIDS, DEPENDENTS, AND IT WILL GO TO THEM EVERY YEAR REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY OWE IN TAXES.

IT IS EXTREMELY GENEROUS.

SO THIS WOULD BE A MAJOR CHANGE THAT WOULD HELP HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES.

THAT LIVES UP TO THE PROMISE OF HELPING THOSE WHO NEED IT.

JON: WE SAW SOMETHING SIMILAR HAPPENED DURING THE PANDEMIC AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, AND WE ALSO SAW A DRAMATIC DROP IN CHILD PROPERTY.

EVAN: YEAH, ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT IS GIVING PEOPLE MONEY.

NOT ALL TAX CREDITS WORK LIKE THIS.

BUT THIS ONE IS SIMPLE.

THE COMPETITIVENESS SIDE IS A LITTLE LESS CONVINCING.

JON: OK, LET'’S TAKE A LISTEN RIGHT NOW TO A COMMENT THAT THE GOVERNOR MADE ON THAT SUBJECT OF COMPETITIVENESS AT A PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY.

GOVERNOR HEALEY: THERE ARE SOME ASPECTS OF OUR CURRENT TAX SYSTEM THAT MAKE MASSACHUSETTS AN OUTLIER.

WHEN WE DO NOT KEEP UP WITH OTHER STATES, WE PUT OUR COMPETITIVENESS AT RISK.

JON: WELL, KATE.

LET ME BRING YOU BACK IN.

I'’M OLD ENOUGH -- I KNOW IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE GIVEN MY YOUTHFUL LOOK HERE, BUT I REMEMBER THE DAYS WHEN MASSACHUSETTS WAS REFERRED TO AS TAX-ACHUSEET AND BUSINESSES WERE FLEEING THE STATE.

THAT IS WHEN THE NOTION OF MAINTAINING OUR COMPETITIVENESS ALMOST BECAME LIKE A THIRD RAIL OR STAPLE OF MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS.

IS THIS STILL SUCH A PERSUASIVE ARGUMENT, AS YOU CAN TELL?

KATIE: WHETHER OR NOT IT IS PERSUASIVE, I GUESS WE WILL SEE THAT PLAY OUT, RIGHT?

THE GOVERNOR IS USING THE NUMBER OF OTHER STATES AS PART OF HER ARGUMENT HERE, SO ON SHORT-TERM CAPITAL GAINS WE ARE ONE OF TWO STATES THAT HAS A HIGHER RATE THAN LONG-TERM.

ON THE ESTATE TAX, THAT IS -- ON THE ESTATE TAX, THAT IS SOMETHING NUMBERS OF BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT DISCOURAGES PEOPLE FROM STAYING IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHEN THEY COULD BE MOVING TO PLACES LIKE FLORIDA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, THE TWO THAT ARE USUALLY BANDIED ABOUT.

AND THAT HAS BEEN A COMPETITIVENESS ARGUMENT THAT KEEPS COMING UP.

I GUESS YOU COULD SAY IT HAS NOT BEEN PERSUASIVE SO FAR, AT LEASE NOT PERSUASIVE ENOUGH FOR THE DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE TO OVERCOME THEIR OWN DIFFERENCES OF OPINION ON THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THE ESTATE TAX.

JON: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CAPITAL GAINS CUTS IS THE LEFT SAYS, THAT IS JUST A -- FOR THE RICH.

EVAN: BECAUSE IT IS.

I AM SENSITIVE TO THE CONCERNS, WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT STATE COMPETITIVENESS.

THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO MAKE TAX CHANGES TO MAKE THE ECONOMY MORE COMPETITIVE, AND THESE ARE NOT THOSE.

I'’T'’S NOT LIKE THE IDEA IS MISGUIDED.

THAT'’S REAL.

BUT ECONOMIC POLICY IS NOT STRONGLY CONNECTED TOWARDS SHORT-TERM CAPITAL GAINS, THAT IS FOR HOUSE FLIPPERS, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING A QUICK TURNAROUND.

WHAT YOU REALLY WANT IS LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS FOR COMPETITIVENESS.

SO YOU SHOULD HAVE A HIGHER TAX ON SHORT-TERM.

THIS IS GOING THE WRONG WAY.

THE ESTATE TAX AS WELL.

IT IS TRUE THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL MOVE OUT OF STATE TO AVOID PAYING THE TAX, BUT THOSE ARE USUALLY OLDER PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM WHEN THEY DIE.

THOSE ARE NOT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING PEOPLE OR RUNNING BUSINESSES.

IT DOES NOT TOUCH THE ECONOMY.

THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF TAX CHANGES YOU WANT TO IMPLEMENT IF YOU CARE PASSIONATELY ABOUT IT.

THESE ARE NOT THE AREAS WHERE YOU SHOULD BE MAKING CHANGES.

JON: WHEN A SIMILAR TAX PACKAGE WAS FLOATED LAST YEAR BY GOVERNOR BAKER, THE OBJECTIONS TO IT -- THE HOUSE SPEAKER, IN PARTICULAR, TOUCHED ON IT, INCLUDING THE CLAIM THAT WE ARE FLUSH WITH CASH, THE ECONOMY IS DOING PRETTY WELL RIGHT NOW, BUT HISTORY SHOWS US THAT IS NOT GOING TO LAST.

THERE'’S ALREADY SIGNS OF SOME TROUBLE LURKING.

SO DO YOU SEE THIS BECOMING A MAJOR FACTOR IN THIS DEBATE, AS THEY HASH THINGS OUT?

EVAN: I THINK IT IS PROBABLY TOO BIG TO BE SUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG TERM, GIVEN OUR PROJECTIONS FOR LONG-TERM TAXES.

THIS IS A VERY BIG PACKAGE.

JON: THIS IS THE OPENING ANTE.

EVAN: OR MAYBE LEGISLATORS WANT TO ADD THEIR OWN PRIORITIES.

THE HOUSE HAS ITS OWN SET OF TAX PRIORITIES.

AND I THINK WE ARE STARTING OFF AT A LEVEL THAT IS PROBABLY TOO BIG AND NEEDS TO BE PARED BACK.

A LOT HINGES ON WHEN EXACTLY TAX REVENUES COME INTO PLAY.

WE HAVE BEEN FLUSH FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, BUT THAT IS CHANGING.

WHETHER IT IS THIS APRIL, JUNE OR SEPTEMBER, WE WILL START TO SEE A REAL PARING BACK IN INCOMING TAX REVENUES.

THAT WILL CHANGE WHAT SEEMS POSSIBLE ON BEACON HILL.

IF IT HAPPENS IN APRIL, IT WILL AFFECT THIS DISCUSSION DRAMATICALLY.

BUT IT MAY NOT HAPPEN UNTIL JUNE OR SEPTEMBER OR DECEMBER, IN WHICH CASE WE MIGHT GET TO A POINT WHERE THIS PACKAGE PASSES BEFORE WE RECOGNIZE THE CONSTRAINTS COMING.

JON: WE WERE TEXTING BACK AND FORTH BEFORE THIS INTERVIEW ABOUT THE TIMEFRAME OF ALL OF THIS, KATIE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE VOTED ON IN CONNECTION WITH THE BUDGET IN THIS SUMMER.

THIS IS A SEPARATE ENTITY THAT COULD BE TAKEN UP AND VOTED ON AT ANY POINT, OR NOT.

DO YOU FEEL ANY SENSE OF URGENCY ON BEACON HILL WITH REGARD TO THIS?

KATIE: THERE IS NOT A SENSE OF URGENCY YOU FOR MUCH ON BEACON HILL BECAUSE THE SESSION IS STILL GETTING UP AND RUNNING, WE ARE NOT REALLY AT THE MAKE IT OR BREAK IT DEADLINE MOMENTS YET, WHICH IS WHEN WE USUALLY SEE A LOT OF ACTION.

BUT LIKE GOVERNOR BAKER DID, GOVERNOR HEALEY IS PROPOSING HER TAX PLAN AS A BILL ALONGSIDE OF HER BUDGET.

SHE IS PUTTING THE MONEY IN HER BUDGET, WHICH WILL BE FILED ON WEDNESDAY.

AND WITH GOVERNOR BAKER, WE SAW HIS TAX PLAN TAKEN UP, YOU KNOW, REWRITTEN BY THE LEGISLATURE AND IT HIT THE FLOOR FOR VOTES LAST JULY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

IT NEVER GOT OVER THE FINISH LINE.

IN A TWO YEAR SESSION, YOU TEND TO SEE THE ACTION IN THE SECOND YEAR, BUT THE SENATE PRESIDENT HAS STARTED THE YEAR BY CALLING FOR PROGRESSIVE TAX REFORM TO BE PASSED SOON, SO SHE SEEMS TO HAVE AN INTEREST IN GETTING IT DONE.

TAX BILLS START IN THE HOUSE, SO IT WILL BE UP TO THEM.

JON: THE FIRST BIG POLICY INITIATIVE FROM A NEW GOVERNOR, ALL DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE, DO YOU SUSPECT THAT THEY WILL WANT TO MOVE ON THIS OR ARE YOU HOPING THAT THEY WON'’T?

EVAN: I DO NOT THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT OF TIME HERE.

I THINK THERE IS A REASON WHY IT WAS FILED ALONG WITH THE BUDGET.

THE HOPE IS THEY ARE ON THE SAME TIMEFRAME.

EITHER THIS ADVANCES ALONGSIDE THE BUDGET, OR IT WILL NOT ADVANCE.

IF THERE IS A CLOCK TICKING IT WILL BE UNTIL THE END OF THE YEAR, THAT IS MY SENSE FOR HOW PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT IT.

JON: INTERESTING.

WE WILL BE WATCHING.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR THE INSIGHT.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

55 YEARS AGO, ONE OF THE MOST TRUSTED MEN ON TELEVISION DID SOMETHING THAT NEWS ANCHORS AT THAT TIME DID NOT DO, HE SHARED HIS OPINION, WEIGHING IN ON THE ONGOING VIETNAM WAR.

WALTER: IT SEEMS MORE CERTAIN THAN EVER THAT THE BLOODY EXPERIENCE OF VIETNAM IS TO END IN A STALEMATE, BUT IS INCREASINGLY CLEAR TO THIS REPORTER THAT THE ONLY RATIONAL WAY OUT WILL BE TO NEGOTIATE, NOT AS VICTORS, BUT AS AN HONORABLE PEOPLE WHO LIVED UP TO THEIR PLEDGE TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY AND DID THE BEST THEY COULD.

JON: THOSE COMMENTS MADE AFTER HE RETURNED FROM A REPORTING TRIP TO VIETNAM, GAVE VOICE TO DOUBTERS OF THE WAR AND MARKED A MOMENT FOR JOURNALISTS TO FOLLOW WALTER CRONKITE'’S LEAD AND BEGIN COVERING THE WERE THREE CRITICAL LENS.

IT WORKED THEN BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD FAITH IN WALTER CRONKITE, BUT TO PARAPHRASE AT THE MAN HIMSELF, THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT IS, THAT IS THE WAY IT WAS.

JUST SIX IN 10 ADULTS SAY THEY HAVE TRUST IN NATIONAL NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, ACCORDING TO THE PEW RESEARCH CENTER.

56% OF 18-29-YEAR-OLDS HAVE TRUST.

WHAT IS IT MEAN FOR THE STATE OF NEWS OPINION AND ANALYSIS?

WHAT CAN JOURNALISTS DO TO REGAIN AMERICANS'’ TRUST.

WE ARE PLEASED TO HAVE WITH US JACQUETTA VAN ZANDT AND JOANNA WEISS, THE EDITOR OF EXPERIENCE MAGAZINE.

A ROCKSTAR IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE.

JACQUETTA:, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF NORA O'’DONNELL WERE TO END A NETWORK NEWSCAST WITH AN EDITORIAL LIKE WHAT WALTER CRONKITE DID?

JOANNA: I THINK THE COUNTRY -- JACQUETTA: I THINK IT WOULD START TO CONVERSATIONS.

ONE IS THE CANCEL CULTURE.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER ONE WHO LOOKS AT THE MEDIA AS HONEST.

SPECIFICALLY FOR MY GENERATION, MILLENNIALS, WE DO NOT GET ALL OF OUR INFORMATION FROM SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE DO TURN TO CNN, MSNBC.

AND SOME OF US EVEN TURNED TO FOX, NOT ME.

BUT I THINK THAT THIS WOULD START TWO CONVERSATIONS.

THEY WOULD BE CANCELED IN A MINUTE.

THEY ARE SPREADING LIES, THAT IS NOT WITH THE GOVERNMENT HAS TOLD US.

THERE WOULD BE SOMETHING CONVERSATIONS TO BE HAD.

JON: BACK THEN, LYNDON JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AT THE TIME, WAS SAID TO HAVE REMARKED AFTER HE HEARD WALTER CRONKITE'’S STATEMENT, IF I HAVE LOST CRONKITE, I HAVE LOST THE COUNTRY.

SOMEHOW I DO NOT KNOW IF THE OCCUPANT OF THE WHITE HOUSE TODAY WOULD FEEL THE SAME WAY.

JOANNA: BUT THE OPTIONS FOR NEWS WERE MUCH MORE LIMITED BACK THEN WHEN YOU ONLY HAD THREE NIGHTLY NEWSCASTS THAT EVERYBODY TO DO INTO BECAUSE TELEVISION WAS SUCH A LIMITED MEDIUM.

THERE WERE MAYBE 10 CHANNELS.

THERE WERE MAJOR NEWSPAPERS THAT CONVENED ALL THE NEWS.

AND THERE WAS NOT AN INTERNET WHERE YOU COULD SPREAD A STORY.

A STORY THAT MAY NOT EVEN MAKE IT TO BOSTON FROM MINNEAPOLIS.

SO IT WAS A SMALLER LANDSCAPE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE -- WHO COMMANDED SO MUCH MORE OF THE NATIONAL ATTENTION.

NOW, WE HAVE A LANDSCAPE THAT IS COMPLETELY SPLINTERED.

AND BECAUSE OF ECONOMICS, BECAUSE OF POLITICS, YOU CAN DIAL INTO EXACTLY THE NEWS THAT MATCHES YOUR POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW.

AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE AWARE OF ANY OTHER POINT OF VIEW.

JON: EVERYBODY BLAMES EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET, OF COURSE, BUT IN THIS CASE I THINK RIGHTLY BECAUSE YOU COULD HAVE SOMEBODY COME OUT AND SAY, BY THE WAY, IT IS DARK NOW.

BUT IT WILL BE BRIGHTER TOMORROW, AFTER THE SUN COMES UP .

YOU WOULD IMMEDIATELY, AS YOU PUT IT, BE ATTACKED BY HALF THE COUNTRY, WHO ARE SAYING THAT IS JUST A CONSPIRACY THEORY.

OR THEY PARROT OTHER CONSPIRACY THEORIES THEY HAVE HEARD.

HOW DO WE DIG OUT FROM UNDER THAT?

JACQUETTA: YOU HAVE TO RELY ON A MORAL COMPASS AND YOUR EDUCATION.

WHAT'’S INTERESTING IN STUDYING WALTER CRONKITE IS HUMANITY WAS ALWAYS AT THE CENTER OF HIS NEWS REPORTS, IT WAS ABOUT HOW TO BE RELATABLE.

IT WASN'’T JUST ABOUT HIS PERSONALITY, WHERE I FEEL A LOT OF ANCHORS TEND TO WANT TO BE CELEBRITIES.

SO, FOR ME, I THINK IT IS HAVING THAT CENTER.

WHERE DO WE COME BACK TO?

HOW AM I MAKING SURE THAT THE COUNTRY IS HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING, AS OPPOSED TO JUST LISTENING TO THE NEWS?

JON: BUT YOU ARE SUGGESTING IN DEGREE OF EFFORT BY THE CONSUMER OR VIEWER.

[LAUGHTER] WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, I DO NOT THINK THAT MANY NEWS CONSUMERS ARE WILLING TO PUT IN THAT KIND OF EFFORT.

THEY WANT THEIR AGE SCRATCHED -- ITCH SCRATCHED NOW.

JOANNA: I THINK THAT WE DO BUY INTO A MYTH THAT THE COUNTRY IS MORE DIVIDED THAN IT NECESSARILY IS.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE CABLE NEWS CHANNELS, THEY ONLY GET A SLIVER OF THE POPULATION.

SOME PEOPLE ARE GETTING THEIR NEWS ONLY OFF OF TIKTOK THESE DAYS.

YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY MEDIUM THAT IS COMMANDING THE KIND OF ATTENTION IT USED TO HAVE.

BUT YOU ALSO HAVE CABLE CHANNELS WHERE YOU HAVE A NEWS OPERATION, THEN THE PERSONALITIES, AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE SEPARATE AND SOMETIMES THEY EMERGE TOGETHER.

ON FOX, YOU HAVE, IN THE EVENING, THESE PERSONALITIES WHO ARE OPINION JOURNALISTS ENTIRELY, IF YOU COULD EVEN CALL THEM JOURNALISTS, WHO ARE STILL COMMANDING THIS IDEA THAT THEY ARE PRESENTING THE NEWS TO THEIR AUDIENCE.

JON: I HAVE GOT TO MOVE ON, BUT DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, NAME A JOURNALIST WHO WHEN YOU SEE THEM YOU INSTINCTIVELY TRUSTED THEM.

-- TRUST THEM.

[LAUGHTER] IT IS HARD, ISN'’T IT?

CAN YOU NAME ONE?

JOANNA: YOU CAN GO BACK TO THE OLD DAYS WHERE YOU COULD SAY, DID I TRUST PETER JENNINGS?

YOU KNOW, IT IS HARD TO EVEN NAME THE NETWORK NEWSCASTERS NOW.

JACQUETTA: DOES OPRAH COUNT?

JON: ABSOLUTELY.

[LAUGHTER] THE BIGGEST MEDIA STORY OF THE DECADE, IN MY OPINION, MAYBE EVEN LONGER THAN THAT, IS UNFOLDING BEFORE OUR EYES RIGHT NOW, AND IT IS THE DOMINION VOTING SYSTEM'’S LAWSUIT AGAINST FOX NEWS.

$1.7 BILLION AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR.

LAST WEEK, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF EMAILS BROUGHT OUT DURING LEGAL DISCOVERY PROCEDURES THAT SEEMED TO, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, PRETTY MUCH LOCK UP THE CASE THAT FOX EXECUTIVES AND ANCHORS KNEW THAT THEY WERE PERPETUATING LIES ABOUT VOTING IN THE 2020 ELECTION, ABOUT DOMINION, THAT THEY REVILED THE CLAIMS AS RIDICULOUS BEHIND THE SCENES, BUT WENT ON THE AIR AND INVITED PEOPLE TO SPREAD THEM.

FOX'’S HOWARD KURTZ, WHO HOSTS THE WEEKLY MEDIA REVIEW ON THAT NETWORK, CAME OUT YESTERDAY AND SAID THE FOLLOWING ABOUT THIS MEGA MEDIA STORY.

HOWARD: SOME OF YOU HAVE BEEN ASKING WHY I AM NOT COVERING THE DOMINION LAWSUIT AGAINST FOX INVOLVED IN THE UNPROVEN CLAIMS OF ELECTION FRAUD.

IT IS A FAIR QUESTION.

I BELIEVE I SHOULD BE COVERING IT, IT IS A MAJOR MEDIA STORY, BUT THE COMPANY HAS DECIDED THAT AS PART OF THE ORGANIZATION BEING SUED, I CANNOT TALK ABOUT IT FOR NOW.

I DISAGREE, BUT AS AN EMPLOYEE I HAVE TO ABIDE BY IT.

JON: DO YOU THINK HE WILL BE BACK ON NEXT SUNDAY?

JOANNA: I DO NOT.

JACQUETTA: THIS IS MAJOR FOR FOX, IT TALKS ABOUT THEIR BRANDING, IT GOES TO THEIR CREDIBILITY.

HIS ABILITY TO SPEAK OUT, FREEDOM OF PRESS, FREEDOM OF THOUGHT -- HIS ABILITY TO SPEAK OUT IS AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT THEY TELL THEIR VIEWERS TO WATCH OUT FOR.

HE WILL NOW BECOME AN ENEMY OF THE STATE, AND THAT IS THE SCARY PART.

JOANNA: WE TALKED ABOUT FOX, THAT THEY HAVE PERSONALITIES, BUT THEY ALMOST ALWAYS HAD A NEWS SIDE, PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO BE NEWS REPORTERS.

SHEPARD SMITH WAS A LONGTIME ANCHOR WHO REALLY TRIED TO BE AS OBJECTIVE AS POSSIBLE.

CHRIS WALLACE, YOU KNOW, EXCELLENT INTERVIEWER AND POLITICAL JOURNALIST.

AND HOWARD KURTZ, WHO CAME FROM THE WASHINGTON POST, IS THE REAL JOURNALIST AT FOX.

YOU KNOW, ONE BY WHEN THEY HAVE LEFT.

ONE BY ONE THEY HAVE DECIDED THAT THEY CANNOT TAKE THAT PRESSURE ANYMORE.

YEAH, IS HOWARD GOING TO BE THE NEXT PERSON?

COULD BE.

JON: I AM NOT SO SURE.

I DO NOT PLAY BIG-TIME MEDIA EXECUTIVE ON TV OR IN REAL LIFE, SO I AM PROJECTING A LITTLE BIT HERE, BUT I FAILED TO SEE EXACTLY HOW THIS HELPS FOX'’S STANDING.

PERHAPS NOT SO MUCH IN THE COURTROOM AS IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

THERIR OWN GUY JUST CALLED THEM OUT FOR SUPPRESSING DISCUSSION OF A STORY THAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY KNOWS ABOUT.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

JOANNA: WHO IS RUNNING THE SHOW, IS AT THE AUDIENCE OR IS IT THE PROGRAM, OR IS IT THE JOURNALIST?

THIS WAS THE SUBTEXT AND OFTEN THE TEXT THAT CAME OUT IN DISCOVERY.

WE KNOW THIS BUT THE AUDIENCE WANTS TO HEAR SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

AND WE HAVE TAKEN THE AUDIENCE ON A RIDE SO FAR THAT WE MIGHT LOSE THEM IF WE DO NOT KEEP FEEDING THEM THE THINGS THAT THEY EXPECT.

JACQUETTA: I WOULD SAY THAT THEIR AUDIENCE IS NOW SPLIT ALSO.

THERE'’S PEOPLE WHO ARE DIEHARD FOX FANS.

AND PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE, OK, I WILL GET A LITTLE OF MY NEWS FROM FOX, I WILL DO MY OWN RESEARCH.

BUT I THINK THEY ARE SPLIT.

FOR ME, THIS IS A TSUNAMI.

THIS WILL HAVE FX ALL THE WAY TO CONGRESS BECAUSE A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS WHO WERE PERPETUATING THE LIE, HAVE TO DIAL BACK NOW.

YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE ON AN APOLOGY TOUR.

AND UNFORTUNATELY HE IS THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB.

JON: THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE BIG LIE ABOUT THE 2020 ELECTION, THE NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS AND OR CONSERVATIVES WHO SAY THAT THEY BELIEVE IT, IS STILL HIGH.

I BELIEVE IT IS STILL A SOLID MAJORITY, BUT HAS DWINDLED FROM THE EARLY DAYS OF 2021, THE END OF 2020.

AT SOME POINT, DOESN'’T IT BECOME A DIMINISHING RETURN FOR FOX TO TRY TO PRETEND OTHERWISE?

I AM NOT SURE WHAT IS IN IT FOR THEM.

JACQUETTA: DIDN'’T THIS HAPPEN DURING WATERGATE?

IT WAS DENIED, D-- DENY, DENY, DENY.

I REMEMBER THE MOUTH OF THE SOUTH, MARGARET MITCHELL, PLAYED A PART.

JON: BUT ONCE THE TAPES CAME MALCOLM ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS FAILED.

JOANNA: ALREADY ON FOX, FOR THE MOST PART, MAYBE NOT TUCKER CARLSEN, BUT IF YOU WATCH IT DURING THE DAY THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JOE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.

NOBODY WAS REALLY PERPETUATING THAT LIE IN A REAL WAY.

IT BECAME A FRINGE ISSUE.

WHAT YOU DID NOT GET ON FOX WAS VERY MUCH COVERAGE AT ALL OR ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION.

IT WAS A TINY THING, DO NOT LOOK OVER THERE.

LET'’S MOVE ONTO TO TODAY'’S TALKING POINTS.

JON: IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THEY WIND UP COMING OUT OF THIS, NOT JUST LEGALLY BUT IN TERMS OF RATINGS.

ONE MORE TOPIC I WANT TO MIX IN HERE.

SORRY FOR THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE JUST COMING OUT OF DINNER HERE, IT IS A LITTLE BIT NAUSEATING TO EVEN TALK ABOUT, BUT SCOTT ADAMS, THE CARTOONIST WHO IS BEHIND THE DILBERT COMICS AND HAS BEEN A RIGHT WING VOICE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HAS HAD HIS WORK DROPPED BY NEWSPAPERS AND HE LOST A BOOK CONTRACT AFTER HE POSTED A VIDEO RANT IN WHICH HE DESCRIBED TO THE 26% OF BLACK RESPONDENTS WHO ANSWERED "NO" TO A QUESTION ASKING IF IT WAS OK TO BE WHITE, NOT LIKE ANY POLL QUESTION I HAVE HEARD, HE DESCRIBED IT AS A HATE GROUP.

AND URGED WHITE PEOPLE TO "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM BLACK PEOPLE."

HE SAID IT IS NO LONGER A RATIONAL IMPULSE FOR A WHITE CITIZEN TO TRY TO HELP BLACK CITIZENS.

ON THE RIGHT, OF COURSE, THEY CALL THIS CANCELED.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE IT IS PUBLISHERS NOT WANTING THEIR BRAND TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS BIGOTRY.

JACQUETTA: SCOTT ADAMS IS A RACIST.

WHAT HE SAID WAS OFFENSIVE.

NOT ONLY TO ME BUT TO WHITE PEOPLE AS WELL, BECAUSE THERE'’S MANY OF US, BLACK AND WHITE, WHO BELIEVE WE ARE UNITED IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHAT BOTHERS ME ABOUT HIM IS HE HAS A PLATFORM.

I DO NOT CARE IF THEY WANT TO CALL IT CANCEL CULTURE OR NOT.

WE ARE NOT A HATE GROUP.

WE HAVE BUILT THIS COUNTRY AND WE ARE UNAPOLOGETIC ABOUT OUR PRIDE.

BUT WHAT HE CANNOT DO IS PRESS MY PEOPLE -- OPRAH'’S MY PEOPLE AND PUT A LABEL ON US.

JOANNA: IT IS SELF CANCELLATION BECAUSE HE IS SAVVY ENOUGH AT THIS POINT TO KNOW IF YOU PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE ON THE INTERNET TO A BROAD AUDIENCE THAT WILL SEE IT, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES.

WHAT HE SAID WAS EXTRAORDINARILY EXTREME AND RACIST.

AND THAT IS NOT SOMEONE COMING AND DIGGING SOMETHING OUT OF YOUR PAST THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED WRONG.

HE SAID IT AND HE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

JON: WHAT IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THIS ODESN DOES NOT HURT HIM FINANCIALLY?

THAT HE GETS OTHER JOBS AS A RESULT OF IT?

THAT OTHER CRACKPOTS RALLY BEHIND HIM AND HE WINDS UP BEING MADE WHOLE?

JACQUETTA: LET HIM HAVE THAT.

MICHAEL JACKSON WILL STILL BE THE GREATEST DANCER THAT EVER WALKED THE STAGE.

MIKE TYSON WILL STILL HIT HARDER THAN ANY OTHER PERSON HAS EVER PUNCHED.

MY PEOPLE ARE OK, WE ARE FINE.

LET HIM LIVE HIS LIFE, BUT DO NOT OPRESS MINE.

JOANNA: YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK DONALD TRUMP IF HE WOULD RATHER BE ON TWITTER THAN TRUTH OR SOCIAL.

HE WOULD RATHER HAVE AN AUDIENCE THAT ARE LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE, BUT IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A BROAD AUDIENCE LIKE HE USED TO HAVE, HE HAS LOST SOMETHING.

JON: IT IS GOOD TO KNOW THAT FORMENTING RACIAL HATRED IS NOT A GOOD BUSINESS MODEL.

JACQUETTA: SHOUT OUT TO THE PUBLISHERS WHO SAID WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS.

JON: YES, BOTH OF YOU, THANK YOU.

THAT'’S IT FOR TONIGHT.

MORE TOMORROW AT THIS TIME.

I'’M JOHN KELLER.

THANKS TO MY FRIENDS AT GBH FOR HAVING ME.

AND THANKS FOR WATCHING.

NINE.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG]