♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'RE CLOSE.

WE'RE CLOSE.

IT'S NOT DONE YET.

>> BENJAMIN NETANYAHU POURS COLD WATER ALL OVER PRESIDENT BIDEN'S HOPES FOR A DEAL AS GAZA FACES FAMINE AND COMPLETE CHAOS.

THE HEAD OF NORWAY'S MAIN HUMANITARIAN AGENCY JAN EGELAND JOINS ME FROM INSIDE THE WAR-RAVAGED ENCLAVE.

>>> THEN -- >> HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?

>> TWO YEARS ON, WE REMEMBER THE ATROCITIES OF BUCHA.

MY REPORT FROM THERE ABOUT THE FACE OF RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE.

>>> PLUS -- >> WE'VE GOT FIVE BODIES FROZEN INTO A GIANT BLOCK OF FLESH.

>> A MURDER MYSTERY SET IN DARKNESS AND ICE.

MY CONVERSATION WITH TRUE DETECTIVE STARS JODIE FOSTER AND KALI REIS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> NOTHING GETS JOE BIDEN MORE ANIMATED THAN BEING SEEN AS THE PROTECTOR OF DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE.

>> CAN BIDEN RESTORE AMERICA'S FOREIGN POLICY?

POLITICO'S NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK "THE INTERNATIONALISTS."

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NOW, THERE APPEAR TO BE MAJOR DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF AN AGREEMENT FOR A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

AFTER WEEKS OF NEGOTIATIONS, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS A DEAL TO RELEASE ISRAELI HOSTAGES COULD BE MADE BY NEXT MONDAY, WHICH WOULD ALSO MEAN A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE FOR GAZA.

AND SPEAKING TO TALK SHOW HOST SETH MEYERS, HE WAS OPTIMISTIC FOR FUTURE DIPLOMACY.

>> THERE'S A PROCESS UNDER WAY THAT I THINK IF WE GET THAT -- THAT TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE IN A DIRECTION WHERE WE CAN CHANGE THE DYNAMIC AND NOT HAVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION IMMEDIATELY, BUT A PROCESS TO GET TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

>> BUT THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE DASHED ANY HOPES FOR AN EARLY CEASE-FIRE, AND KEY MEDIATOR QATAR SAYS DISAGREEMENTS CONTINUE OVER, QUOTE, NUMBERS, RATIOS, AND TROOP MOVEMENTS, PRESUMABLY REFERRING TO THE NUMBER OF HOSTAGES RELEASED FOR PALESTINIAN PRISONERS AND THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS FROM GAZA.

THE DEATH TOLL THERE IS FAST APPROACHING 30,000, AND TODAY FRANCE AND SEVERAL MIDDLE EAST NATIONS AIR DROPPED AID INTO THE TERRITORY, BUT THE U.N.

WARNS OF A LOOMING FAMINE.

THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM SAID IT'S SUSPENDED ITS AID DELIVERIES AMID, QUOTE, A COLLAPSE OF CIVIL ORDER.

JAN EGELAND, WHO IS HEAD OF THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL, A MAJOR HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATION, IS IN GAZA NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th HAMAS SLAUGHTER OF ISRAELIS THAT HAS LED TO THIS FIERCE COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

AND HE JOINED ME FROM RAFAH.

>> JAN EGELAND, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM RAFAH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE THERE AND SEE IT FOR THE FIRST TIME?

WE'VE HEARD A LOT.

WE'VE SEEN PICTURES.

WE HEAR REPORTS FROM INSIDE.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING WITH YOUR OWN EYES?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, YOU HAVE TO COME TO GAZA TO UNDERSTAND THE DEVASTATION, THE DESTITUTION, AND THE DESPERATION OF THE PEOPLE HERE.

I HAVE NEVER IN MY MANY, MANY YEARS AS AN AID WORKER SEEN A PLACE THAT HAS BEEN SO BOMBARDED FOR SUCH A LONG TIME WITH SUCH A TRAPPED POPULATION WITHOUT ANY ESCAPE.

SO PEOPLE ARE TRAUMATIZED BEYOND BELIEF.

THEY LIVE UNDER THE MOST HORRIFIC CONDITIONS.

I WAS IN A SCHOOL TODAY WITH 50 PEOPLE SLEEPING IN A SMALL CLASSROOM, YOU KNOW, 250, 200 PEOPLE SHARING ONE LATRINE, AND NO REAL WATER, FOOD.

WE'RE TRYING TO DO ALL WE CAN AS THE NORWEGIAN RESCUE COUNCIL, BUT WE'RE REALLY, REALLY OVERSTRETCHED IN THIS OCEAN OF NEEDS.

>> JAN EGELAND, YOU KNOW, FINALLY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS STARTED TO AIR DROP SOME AID.

BUT WHAT WE SAW WAS THAT SOME OF IT DROPPED INTO THE SEA, AND THE PICTURES ARE REALLY ONES OF, YOU KNOW, I MEAN TOTAL JUST PANIC.

PEOPLE ARE SCAVENGING.

PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER.

PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO GET THE PLASTIC -- I GUESS THEY'RE MILITARY RATIONS.

CAN THERE BE NO BETTER WAY OF DELIVERING AID EVEN IN THE MIDST OF A WAR?

>> THERE CAN BE A MUCH BETTER WAY REALLY, AND IT'S UP TO ISRAEL WITH THE UNITED STATES AND EGYPT TO FIX IT.

OF COURSE AIR DROPS IS SOMETHING OF A VERY LAST RESORT.

YOU DO THAT TO BESIEGED AREAS AS WE DID IN SYRIA WHEN THE ISLAMIC STATE WAS BESIEGING IT AND SO ON.

JORDAN IS DOING SOME AIR DROPS.

IT'S VERY COSTLY.

IT'S VERY LIMITED AND VERY HARD TO DO.

THE SOLUTION IS TO GET THE RAFAH CROSSING AND CA RIM SHALOM TO WORK TO ACCORDING TO ITS PURPOSE AND ACCORDING TO ITS CAPACITY.

I COULD SEE MANY HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS LINED UP AT THE RAFAH CROSSING WHEN I CAME TODAY.

IN KEREM SHALOM, IT'S BEEN DAYS WITH ONLY A HANDFUL OF TRUCKS EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE A MUCH BIGGER CAPACITY FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE.

BUT THERE THEY LET EXTREMISTS, EXTREMISTS BLOCK THE AID TO THE CHILDREN AND WOMEN, THE INNOCENT ON THIS SIDE.

>> YOU KNOW, AS PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING HOW CAN WE SEND AID INTO THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED OUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND KIDNAPPED OUR PEOPLE, SO THE POLITICS IS EVEN PLAYING OUT AND THE TRAUMA ON THE BORDER THERE.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU REACT TO, LET'S JUST SAY, PALESTINIANS WHO TALK TO REUTERS SAID ABOUT THE AIR DROPS, WE CAME, THROWING OURSELVES TOWARD DEATH TO GET SOME FLOUR.

WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING.

HAVE MERCY ON US.

ANOTHER SAID, OUR LIFE HAS BECOME HELL.

AND WE KNOW, BECAUSE A CNN INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT ISRAEL ACTUALLY FIRED ON A U.N. CONVOY CARRYING FOOD SUPPLIES EARLIER THIS MONTH, FEBRUARY 5th.

>> YES.

YES.

AND ALSO, I MEAN, IT'S BEYOND BELIEF THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE MOURNING, OF COURSE, THE WORST MASSACRE IN THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER WOULD BELIEVE THAT TAKING AWAY FOOD FROM CHILDREN AND WOMEN, COMPLETELY INNOCENT, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 7th OF OCTOBER, COULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE POOR HOSTAGES HERE.

THE HAMAS MILITANTS HAVE FOOD, AND THEY ARE IN TUNNELS.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WE AID.

THE CHAOS, YES, AROUND THE AID LINE IS BECOMING WORSE AND WORSE BECAUSE THERE'S SO LITTLE AID COMING IN.

TODAY I'M PRETTY SHAKEN ACTUALLY FROM WHAT I SAW.

THE MINUTE WE CROSSED THE BORDER FROM, YOU KNOW, ORDERLY -- YOU SEE THE AID TRUCKS GOING FULL SPEED DOWN THE ROAD, BEING CHASED BY GANGS OF YOUTH WHO JUMP THE TRUCKS AND, BEFORE OUR EYES, LOOT MATTRESSES, BLANKETS, FOOD, ET CETERA, TO THE DESPERATE PEOPLE OUTSIDE TO WANT TO GET SOME AID REALLY.

>> JAN, IS THIS ANARCHY?

IS THIS STEALING, OR IS THIS AN ATTEMPT TO DISTRIBUTE, YOU KNOW, IN AS CRAZY A WAY AS YOU DESCRIBE, TO DISTRIBUTE THIS AID?

>> I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY SELF-SERVICE BY THOSE STRONGEST WHO HAVE RECEIVED NO AID.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND WHO HAVE GRANDMOTHERS, CHILDREN, NEPHEWS WHO ARE STARVING.

>> MM-HMM.

>> PEOPLE ARE NOT LOOTING EACH OTHER.

THEY LOOT WHAT THEY SEE AS AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY COMING WITH FAR TOO LITTLE TO THEM.

SO THEN THEY TAKE WHAT THEY CAN GET.

WE HAVE A SPECIAL WAY OF GOING IN WITH NRC.

WE HAVE NONE OF OUR TRUCKS LOOTED YET, AND WE DO ORDERLY DISTRIBUTIONS WITH LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAVE TO USE THEIR OPEN TRUCKS IN A SITUATION OF DESPERATION.

AND BY THE WAY, THE POLICE, WHICH WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE SOME ORDER IN THIS, WAS BOMBED REPEATEDLY ISRAEL.

THE BLUE UNIFORMED POLICE.

SO THEY ARE GONE NOW.

THEY ARE IN CIVILIAN CLOTHING, TRYING TO SHOOT IN THE AIR.

NO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE YOU'RE IN RAFAH SPECIFICALLY.

YOU'VE PROBABLY HAD SOME ACCESS TOWARDS KHAN YOUNIS.

BUT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT RIGHT NOW, INCLUDING THE RESIDENTS WHO WE CAN MANAGE TO HEAR FROM, ARE IN THE NORTH.

THERE'S A PICTURE WE'RE GOING TO PLAY.

IT'S A MOTHER WHO SAYS THERE'S NO MORE MILK IN THE ENCLAVE OR AT LEAST UP THERE.

SO SHE'S WRAPPING A DATE IN A GAUZE AND LET HER BABY BOY SUCK IN IT AS IF TO SUCK ALL THE JUICE OUT OF THIS DATE.

>> YEAH.

>> WE HAVE HEARD THAT THERE ARE STORIES OF YOUNG CHILDREN SAYING THAT THEY WOULD RATHER DIE.

WE'VE HEARD ADULTS SAY THEY ARE GOING TO -- THEY'RE PREPARING TO DIE.

THEY THINK THEY WILL ALL DIE.

CAN YOU GET TO THE NORTH WHERE WE UNDERSTAND THERE IS A FAMINE RISING THERE?

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE NORTH?

WILL YOU GO TO THE NORTH?

>> I'M NOT ABLE MYSELF NOW TO GO TO THE NORTH.

NRC HAS EIGHT AID WORKERS IN THE NORTH, AND THEY ARE, THEMSELVES, STARVING.

WE GOT A LITTLE BIT OF FOOD TO OUR AID WORKERS THE OTHER DAY.

BUT THE CONVOYS HAVE REALLY BEEN THOROUGHLY LOOTED FROM THE DESPERATION AND LAWLESSNESS IN THIS BOMBARDED NORTH.

SO THERE IS VERY LITTLE AID.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE SUPPLIES THAT START.

FAMINE IS BREAKING OUT THERE.

THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT, WHICH SHOWS THAT THE CROSSING -- ISRAEL COULD FIX THIS.

THEY ARE THE OCCUPYING POWER.

THEY HAVE THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY SUPERIORITY.

THEY COULD HAVE CONVOYS GOING OVER CARNEY CROSSING WHICH IS IN THE MIDDLE AREA FROM WHERE YOU CAN EASILY REACH THE NORTH.

IT'S VERY HARD FROM HERE SOUTH IN RAFAH AND KEREM SHALOM AREA.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ARE NOT?

WHY DO YOU THINK A BASIC FOOD AND WATER AND MEDICINE SUPPLIES ARE NOT HAPPENING?

>> BECAUSE OF WHAT IS A MISCONCEPTION, A MILITARY EXPEDIENCY.

LET'S JUST SMASH THE PLACE AND THEREBY REACH VERY FAST A MILITARY OBJECTIVE.

THEY'RE NOT REACHING -- HAVEN'T REACHED THE MILITARY OBJECTIVE AFTER ALL OF THESE MONTHS.

SO I HOPE TO SEE SOME SANITY AND HUMANITY ON THE ISRAELI SIDE.

THIS IS NOT THE ISRAEL I KNOW FROM 40 YEARS OF COOPERATION, INCLUDING THROUGH THE OSLO AGREEMENT.

THEN THERE WAS ALWAYS POSSIBILITIES TO REASON AND TO GET AID TO PALESTINIANS IN NEED.

I HOPE TO SEE DAYS WHERE THIS COMES BACK.

>> SO JAN EGELAND, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO HAVE ISRAELI COORDINATION, PERMISSION, WHATEVER THE WORD IS TO GET IN EVEN FROM RAFAH, EVEN TO TALK AND SEE WHAT THEY NEED THERE.

SO WHAT ARE YOU NOW SAYING TO YOUR ISRAELI INTERLOCUTORS.

DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT OF THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE?

>> WELL, I WONDER.

OF COURSE THERE IS THIS DEHUMANIZATION ON BOTH SIDES.

SO, OF COURSE, ON THIS SIDE, PEOPLE ARE NATURALLY CONCERNED WITH FAMINE AMONG CHILDREN.

ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, IT IS THE HOSTAGES THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE AND ONLY ISSUE.

SO I'M LOOKING TO THE UNITED STATES TO BROKER NOW A DEAL WHEREBY THERE IS AN EXTENDED CEASE-FIRE FOR THIS WAR-EXHAUSTED POPULATION, A RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES, RELEASE FROM PRISONERS ALSO THAT ARE SITTING IN ARBITRARY DETENTION ON THE OTHER SIDE.

AND THEN LET'S REBOOT AND START TO DISCUSS A FUTURE WITH SOME HOPE FOR BOTH PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS, SECURITY FOR ISRAEL, HOPE AND JUSTICE FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

>> IT'S REALLY SUCH A DISASTER.

LISTENING TO YOU IS VERY, VERY DISCONCERTING.

JAN EGELAND, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> UKRAINE IS ALSO TESTING WESTERN RESOLVE, NOW IN THE THIRD YEAR OF RUSSIA'S INVASION.

THEIR DEFENSE MINISTER SAYS THAT HALF THE WESTERN ARMS DELIVERIES FAILED TO ARRIVE ON TIME, AND NOW AFTER THE RETREAT FROM AVDIIVKA LAST WEEK, UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM THE NEARBY VILLAGE BUT SAY THEY ARE BUILDING UP DEFENSES ALONG A NEW FRONT LINE.

WHO CAN FORGET THE MASSACRE THAT SHOWED THE WORLD THE WAR'S TRUE FACE?

IT WAS IN BUCHA, THE KYIV SUBURB THAT REVEALED ATROCITIES AND ALLEGED RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES THAT TOOK PLACE EARLY ON IN THE WAR.

AND I VISITED THAT TOWN ON THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY OF THE INVASION.

AND JUST A REMINDER, OF COURSE, WHAT HAPPENED THERE IS STILL INCREDIBLY DISTURBING.

THIS FATHER WALKS ME THROUGH BUCHA'S GRISLY PLACE IN HISTORY.

HUNDREDS WERE BRUTALLY KILLED HERE DURING RUSSIA'S MONTH-LONG OCCUPATION, INCLUDING WOMEN, CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY.

>> 99 YEARS OLD.

>> OH, MY GOD.

1923 TO 2022.

>> YES.

>> THESE PEOPLE DIED NOT DURING THE FIGHTING BUT DURING THE OCCUPATION SAID THE FATHER, WHEN THE RUSSIAN WORLD CAME HERE.

AND THIS IS ITS FACE.

THESE ARE CORPSES.

THESE ARE RAPED PEOPLE.

THIS IS EVERY APARTMENT AND HOUSE LOOTED.

THIS IS THE FACE OF THE RUSSIAN WORLD.

FATHER ANDREI BECAME KNOWN AFTER THE RUSSIANS WERE PUSHED BACK FOR REVEALING THE SITE OF A MASS GRAVE JUST HERE ON HIS CHURCH GROUNDS, FILLED WITH 160 PEOPLE.

HE SHOWS ME THE ORIGINAL POSTING ABOUT IT ON FACEBOOK, MARCH 12th, 2022, WHEN RUSSIAN FORCES WERE STILL OCCUPYING BUCHA.

AND FROM THIS MEMORIAL, YOU CAN SEE THAT RED HOUSE.

MOST OF THE FAMILY WAS KILLED AS THEY TRIED TO FLEE.

WHEN THE RUSSIANS TURNED A HEAVY MACHINE GUN ON THEIR CAR.

IT STILL HAUNTS AND HORRIFIES THE GRANDMOTHER, VALENTINA.

"IT'S VERY HARD FOR ME TO REMEMBER THIS.

TWO YEARS HAVE PASSED, AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT HAPPENED TODAY," SHE SAYS.

"I SAW THEM OFF TO GET OUT OF THIS HELL, BUT THEY DIDN'T.

THEY WERE SHOT."

THIS IS THE FATE THEY WERE TRYING TO ESCAPE.

THE MAIN STREET IN THIS RESIDENTIAL KEY SUBURB STREWN WITH BODIES, ALL CLEARLY CIVILIANS.

THE DISCOVERY OF BASEMENT TORTURE AND EXECUTION CENTERS.

PEOPLE FORCED TO KNEEL AND LIE WITH HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR BACKS.

WOMEN AND GIRLS RAPED.

>> Translator: HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?

HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?

>> STANDING ON THE STREET TODAY FEELS A LITTLE LIKE STANDING IN A GRAVEYARD.

IT'S WHERE THE HORRORS OF THE RUSSIAN INVASION WERE FIRST EXPOSED, AND IT REMAINS A FIELD OF EVIDENCE, A MEMORIAL, AND A PILGRIMAGE SITE.

>> Translator: WE BELIEVE THAT THESE ARE WAR CRIMES, AND THIS ALL WOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS A GENOCIDE BY THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY CAME HERE APRIL 4th, 2022, RIGHT AFTER HIS FORCES DROVE THE RUSSIANS OUT, AND HE BRINGS ALL HIS INTERNATIONAL VISITORS AND WORLD LEADERS TO BUCHA TO REMIND THE WORLD JUST WHAT THEY'RE FIGHTING AGAINST.

MOSCOW HAS CLAIMED WITHOUT EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS ALL STAGED AND WAS A PLANNED MEDIA CAMPAIGN.

RUSSLAND WAS THE WAR CRIMES PROSECUTOR.

HE'S NOW GOVERNOR OF THE KYIV REGION.

"DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE RUSSIANS SAID IT WAS FAKE AND THE BODIES WERE FAKE AND THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAD KILLED PEOPLE THEMSELVES?"

HE ASKS ME.

WHEN WE SEIZED THE PHONES, WE PROVED TO THE WHOLE WORLD IT WAS THE RUSSIANS WHO KILLED PEOPLE, UKRAINIANS.

RUSELAND SAYS THE WAR CRIMES INVESTIGATIONS CONTINUE USING A TROVE OF EVIDENCE FROM MULTIPLE CAMERAS, PHONES AND OTHER RECORDINGS.

BUT WHEN THEY INFORMED THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS THEY IDENTIFY, THEY DON'T COOPERATE.

AND FATHER ANDRE TELLS US THE AWFUL TRUTH IS THAT BODIES ARE STILL BEING DISCOVERED TODAY, TWO YEARS ON.

"FROM TIME TO TIME, WE FIND SOMEONE BY ACCIDENT," HE SAYS.

"THE RUSSIANS HAD HIDDEN THEIR BODIES SOMEWHERE, AND WE FIND THEM.

SO UNFORTUNATELY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DIED IS INCREASING."

MY REPORT FROM BUCHA JUST AS THE TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY WAS PASSING THIS WEEKEND.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE SPOOKY HIT TV SHOW "TRUE DETECTIVE: NIGHT COUNTRY" SET IN ALASKA AND STARRING HOLLYWOOD LEGEND JODIE FOSTER AND BOXING CHAMP TURNED ACTOR KALI REIS.

THIS FOURTH SEASON IS THE HIGHEST-RATED OF THE WHOLE ANTHOLOGY.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> I'M WORKING ON THIS NEW CASE, A MISSING SCIENTIST FOUND ON THE EDGE OF THE VILLAGES.

FROZEN SOLID.

>> IT'S BEEN SIX YEARS.

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

>> BECAUSE WE BOTH KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

>> BOTH STARS JOIN ME HERE IN LONDON RECENTLY JUST AHEAD OF THE SHOW'S RECENT GRAND FINALE, AND HERE IS OUR CONVERSATION.

JODIE FOSTER, KALI REIS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ON TELEVISION FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, RIGHT?

ON TV.

I MEAN HAVE YOU EVER DONE A MAJOR IN YOUR ADULT LIFE TV SERIES?

WHAT ATTRACTED YOU ABOUT "TRUE DETECTIVE" AND THIS PARTICULAR SERIOUS.

>> I HAVE BEEN DOING A LITTLE BIT OF DIRECTING ON TELEVISION, SO IT'S SOMETHING I WAS FAMILIAR WITH.

I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY, THE RIGHT SCRIPT, SOMETHING THAT MOVED ME REALLY.

>> WHAT ABOUT THIS DOES?

BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY MOVING, I MEAN IT'S HORROR GENRE, IT'S THRILLING.

IT'S IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT.

I MEAN IT'S REALLY HEAVY DUTY.

>> YEAH.

IT'S A FULL EXPERIENCE.

WE'RE SO PROUD OF THIS.

I MEAN ISSA LOPEZ, THE DIRECTOR, JUST DID SUCH A MAGNIFICENT JOB WRITING ALL THE EPISODES AND CREATING THIS WORLD WITH THE TWO TRUE DETECTIVES THAT ARE FEMALE NOW.

WE REMEMBER SEASON ONE AND MATTHEW McCONAUGHEY AND WOODY HARRELSON, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT THE ANTHOLOGY AND BEING ABLE TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

>> SO SINCE JODIE BROUGHT UP SEASON ONE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE DUDES.

IT WAS THE BROS, YOU KNOW.

IT'S GOOD OLD MALE TESTOSTERONE AND GETTING IT DONE, AND IT WAS REALLY -- IT'S ALSO A LITTLE SCARY AND SPOOKY.

WAS IT THE FEMALE-LED CHARACTER OF THIS ONE THAT ATTRACTED YOU TO IT?

AND IT'S YOUR FIRST MAJOR ON-SCREEN, RIGHT?

>> YES.

IT'S MY FIRST MAJOR ON-SCREEN.

IT'S ONLY MY THIRD ACTING JOB AS WELL.

SO I MEAN IT WAS -- THE STORY AS JODIE SAID THAT ISSA CREATED AND FROM THE FIRST PAGE I WAS CAPTIVATED ON THESE VERY COMPLEX CHARACTERS.

SHE INCORPORATED THE PEOPLE OF ALASKA INTO THE CREATION STORIES, INTO THE CRIMES, INTO EVERY PART OF THE STORY IS AROUND THE PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT REALLY ATTRACTED ME TO THIS VERY, VERY INTENSE STORY AND TO THE CHARACTER.

>> AND NOT JUST AROUND THE PEOPLE.

THIS IS VERY MUCH AN INDIGENOUS NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE THAT WE'RE ALL ENTERING.

YOU ARE PART CAPE VERDEAN, PART NATIVE AMERICAN.

WAS THAT ALSO AN ATTRACTIVE CALLING POINT FOR YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE THE REPRESENTATION OR LACK THEREOF THAT WE HAVE AS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, IT'S GETTING A LOT BETTER AND WE'RE IN SUCH A GREAT TIME.

SO WHEN IT WAS PRESENTED TO ME, THIS CHARACTER NAVARRO, SHE WAS PART OF TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS, PART OF THE COMMUNITY SHE WAS GOING TO BE POLICING.

>> IT WAS YOUR CASE ALL THOSE MONTHS.

YOU DIDN'T CLOSE IT.

>> EXACTLY.

>> IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SO FAMILIAR TO ME BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF THAT BALANCE THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE.

YOU DON'T FEEL ENOUGH FOR EITHER, SO IT JUST ATTRACTED ME TO THIS CHARACTER.

>> JODIE FOSTER, KALI WAS A BOXING CHAMP.

>> STILL IS.

>> AND WILL MAYBE GO BACK TO BOXING?

>> I'M NOT RETIRED YET.

>> OKAY.

AND SAID THAT WORKING WITH YOU WAS LIKE TRAINING WITH MIKE TYSON.

>> OH.

>> YES, IT WAS.

>> WITHOUT THE BITING.

>> YOU'VE STILL GOT YOUR EAR.

>> IT WAS LIKE TRAINING WITH MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME.

WHAT BETTER WAY TO -- >> IT MUST BE INTIMIDATING.

THIS IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREAT, GREAT ACTORS SINCE THE AGE OF 6 YEARS OLD.

MULTI-OSCAR-WINNING, AWARD WINNING, DIRECTOR AND ALL THAT, IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS FOR SO MANY REASONS FOR SO MANY YEARS.

WAS IT INTIMIDATING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I WAS TERRIFIED.

BUT I WAS EXCITED BECAUSE I KNEW SOMETHING TERRIIED ME LIKE THIS, I KNEW I WAS GOING TO LEARN SO MUCH.

>> JODIE, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A MENTOR OF SORTS, I GUESS, FOR ALL THE NEWCOMERS AND YOUNGER ACTRESSES.

BUT I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN READING, AND I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN IT TO ME, THAT WHEN ISSA BROUGHT YOU THIS, YOU DECIDED THAT YOU WANTED YOUR CHARACTER, LIZ, TO BE AGED UP.

>> WELL, MY AGE, YES.

>> YOUR AGE.

>> YES.

>> BUT PUTTING NAVARRO'S STORY AS THE CENTER.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YEAH, I THINK ISSA PROBABLY WANTED THAT TOO, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING I REALLY WANTED TO REMIND US THAT WE WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT ISN'T DONE VERY MUCH, JUST TO HAVE THE CENTRAL VOICE OF THE FILM BE AN INDIGENOUS VOICE, TO BE LOOKED THROUGH THOSE EYES IN A WAY NOT JUST BECAUSE WE'RE DOING REPRESENTATION, BUT BECAUSE WE REALLY WANT TO BE IN THAT BODY AND REALLY UNDERSTAND IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

SO TO DO THAT, I'M JUST HERE TO SUPPORT.

SO I KIND OF REVERSE ENGINEERED SUPPORT KALI'S CHARACTER'S JOURNEY.

>> THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ENOUGH.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A FUNNY THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TURN 60, I THINK.

AT LEAST FOR ME, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S SOME WEIRD CHEMICAL THAT STARTS GOING OFF IN YOUR BODY, AND YOU JUST DON'T CARE.

AND PART OF THAT NOT CARING IS THAT YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT IT'S SO MUCH MORE FUN AND MORE SATISFYING TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S NOT YOUR TIME.

IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME, AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO HELP SUPPORT THEM AND BRING WHATEVER EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM YOU HAVE TO THAT PROCESS.

AND YOU GET TO BE PART OF A TEAM, WHICH IS AMAZING.

IT'S SO MUCH BETTER THAN DOING EVERYTHING ON YOUR OWN AND BEING ALL NERVOUS AND ANXIOUS ABOUT YOURSELF.

>> AND KALI, THAT IS REALLY GENEROUS IN MY OPINION.

WHAT DID YOU -- YOU BROUGHT A LOT OF YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, I THINK, FROM WHAT I READ, TO THE CHARACTER.

YOU HAD AN EXPERIENCE THAT WAS VERY NEGATIVE WITH A POLICE OFFICER IN RHODE ISLAND WHERE YOU COME FROM, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU PLAY A VERY VULNERABLE CHARACTER IN THIS.

JODIE'S CHARACTER IS MUCH MORE HARD ASS, RIGHT?

MUCH MORE HARD BITTEN, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

SHE DOES SOME ASS KICKING, THOUGH.

>> NO, SHE DOES.

>> SHE HAS A BAD TEMPER.

>> AND YOU'RE PRETTY PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATING AS YOU'RE PORTRAYED IN THAT FILM.

BUT YOU HAVE A VERY SOFT SPOT FOR THE CENTRAL CHARACTER, WHO IS THE MURDERED WOMAN, ANNIE, AND ALSO YOUR OWN SISTER.

THERE'S SO MUCH THAT COMES INTO THIS HORROR DETECTIVE FLICK.

>> YEAH, THERE IS.

THE HORRORIS THAT IT'S REALISTIC.

ISSA PUT A LOT OF REALISTIC ISSUES, ESPECIALLY AROUND THE INDIGENOUS COMMUNITY, ONE BEING MISSING AND MURDERED INDIGENOUS WOMEN.

WE DON'T GET MAINSTREAM ATTENTION ON THIS, AND THERE ISN'T ANY ANSWERS.

IN ISOLATED COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES, SUICIDE RATES ARE TEN TIMES WORSE.

WOMEN ARE TEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO FACE VIOLENT CRIMES IN THEIR LIFETIME.

SO THESE ARE THE REALISTIC ISSUES THAT WERE REALLY NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART PERSONALLY AND THAT I BROUGHT RIGHT INTO NAVARRO'S CHARACTER.

SHE HAS THIS CRAVING FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE FOR THESE WOMEN.

SHE DOES HAVE A SHORT FUSE RIGHTLY SO.

THERE WAS A LOT OF REALISM FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND THE OTHER EXPERIENCE THAT I'VE HEARD FROM DIFFERENT FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES DURING MY RESEARCH.

>> THIS POLICE OFFICER IN RHODE ISLAND, WHAT DID HE DO?

DID HE BEAT YOU UP?

DID HE GET YOU IN A -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT HAS HE SEEN THIS?

>> I HOPE SO.

I REALLY DO.

I HOPE SO.

YOU KNOW, IT'S CRAZY THE THINGS, TOO.

THAT REALLY MESSED ME UP BECAUSE I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

I WAS AT WORK.

I WAS A SECURITY OFFICER AT A CLUB, AND HE CAME IN AND JUST ASSERTED HIS AUTHORITY IN THE WRONG WAY THAT THEY DO, AND HE JUST STARTED WAILING ON ME.

HE JUST WENT CALLING ME ALL DEROGATORY NAMES AND THREW ME IN THE PADDY WAGON AND TOLD ME I HAD TO APOLOGIZE IN ORDER TO GET MYSELF OUT.

WHAT HE DIDN'T KNOW IS THERE WAS A CAMERA UNDERNEATH WHERE EVERYTHING HAPPENED.

BUT I WAS CONFUSED.

IT WAS A DARK TIME IN MY LIFE, AND IT REALLY MESSED ME UP, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK LIKE POLICE OFFICERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE TO HELP AND PROTECT AND SERVE.

YOU KNOW, I'M PART OF NOT A POLICE OFFICER, BUT I WAS SECURITY.

SO TO FLIP IT ON ITS HEAD AND KIND OF REALLY HAVE TO FACE THIS ACTUAL THING, PUT THE UNIFORM ON, IT WAS -- IT WAS CATHARTIC.

I WILL SAY THAT.

BUT I'M PROUD THAT I WAS ABLE TO DO THAT.

I COULDN'T EVEN HEAR SIRENS FOR A WHILE.

IT WAS REALLY BAD.

>> WOW.

JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SCENERY, OBVIOUSLY IT'S SET IN ALASKA, THE NIGHT COUNTRY.

BUT YOU DIDN'T FILM IN ALASKA, RIGHT?

YOU FILMED IN ICELAND?

>> WE FILMED IN ICELAND BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FILM IN ALASKA.

IT WAS TOO REMOTE, AND THERE ARE NO ROADS IN A LOT OF THE PLACES WE'D HAVE TO BE.

WE FILMED IN ICELAND, AND WE BROUGHT EVERYBODY FROM ALASKA THERE.

THAT WAS FUN.

WE HAD WONDERFUL ALASKAN ACTORS AND ALSO GREENLANDIC ACTORS WHO SHARE A HERITAGE.

SO SOME OF THEM, THEY SORT OF MEET IN THE ARCTIC AND ALL THE NATIVE INUIT PEOPLE CONNECTED WITH EACH OTHER, SO THAT WAS SATISFYING.

>> WAS IT DARK ALL THE TIME?

OBVIOUSLY EVERY SCENE WE SEE IS DARK, AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU'VE GOT SADS OR SOMETHING, IT'S DIFFICULT.

>> IT'S DARK MOST OF THE DAY.

WHEN THE SUN IS UP AND LIKE THE DARKNESS OF THE DARK, IT'S ONLY LIKE DAWN FOR LIKE MAYBE THREE OR FOUR HOURS OF THE DAY.

IT'S VERY LIKE A TWILIGHT.

BUT IT'S DARK.

BUT I WASN'T PERSONALLY AFFECTED, BUT I CAN SEE HOW BEING IN AN ISOLATED AREA LIKE THAT FOR THAT LONG, DARK ALL THE TIME -- >> HOW LONG WAS THE SHOOT?

>> WE WERE THERE FOR SEVEN MONTHS.

>> AND ALL DARK DAYS?

>> WELL, NOT ALL OF THEM.

WE GOT THERE IN OCTOBER, SO IT WAS MORE LIKE FALL, AND IT WASN'T -- >> SO WE GOT TO EXPERIENCE THE TRANSITION OF IT BEING KIND OF LIKE NORMAL TO ALL DARK.

THEN WHEN WE LEFT, IT WAS GOING BACKWARDS ACTUALLY.

>> SO THE LAST MAJOR THRILLER DETECTIVE THAT YOU PLAYED OBVIOUSLY WAS IN HANNIBAL ELECTOR.

>> "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS."

>> "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS," SORRY.

GOT AN OSCAR.

HOW DIFFERENT WAS THIS?

>> WELL, I NEVER PLAYED ANOTHER POLICE OFFICER SORT OF FBI INVESTIGATOR EVER AGAIN BECAUSE I FELT LIKE "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS" WAS SUCH A UNICORN.

IT WAS SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY MOVIE.

ALL THINGS CAME AND WERE ALIGNED, AND I REALLY HAVEN'T FELT THAT FEELING UNTIL THIS ONE.

I WAS SAYING THAT LAST NIGHT, YOU KNOW.

THIS FILM WAS VERY EASY TO MAKE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH LOVE, AND IT'S SO GENUINE, AND WE WERE ALL CRAZY ABOUT EACH OTHER.

AND SOMEHOW EVERYTHING JUST KIND OF FELL INTO PLACE.

AND I FELT THAT ABOUT "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS" TOO.

>> CONGRATULATIONS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOMINATED AGAIN, IN THIS CASE BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS FOR "NYAD."

TELL ME THE STORY.

>> IT'S THE STORY OF DIANA NYAD, WHO IS A SWIMMER, HAD BEEN A MARATHON SWIMMER FOR HER WHOLE LIFE, AND THEN CAME BACK AT THE AGE OF 60, FINALLY ACCOMPLISHING HER MISSION AT 64 TO SWIM FROM CUBA TO FLORIDA.

>> THAT'S MORE THAN 100 MILES.

>> MORE THAN 100 MILES, AND NO PERSON ELSE HAS EVER DONE IT WITHOUT A SHARK TANK.

>> IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO ONE OF THE THINGS I THOUGHT WAS INCREDIBLY MOVING ABOUT IT IS NOT ONLY HER DETERMINATION AND HER SUCCESS AT THAT AGE, PLUS AT ANY AGE, BUT ANNETTE BENNING AND YOURSELF AGAIN KIND OF AGED UP.

I MEAN YOU WERE NOT SHY ABOUT THE SUN DAMAGE AND THE MASK DAMAGE THAT SHE HAD.

I MEAN THAT TAKES SOME COURAGE ALSO.

>> YEAH.

AS I SAY, I WAS BEST SUPPORTING ABS BECAUSE I NEVER HAD TO GET IN THE WATER.

I BASICALLY STOOD ON THE BOAT AND SUCKED IN MY STOMACH.

>> AND SHOUT AT HER.

>> YOU KNOW THE ACTUAL REALLY BONNIE, THE FRIEND, AND DIANA.

>> DIANA AND BONNIE ARE GOOD FRIENDS.

I LOVE THEM.

THAT REALLY WAS THE REASON I DID IT.

THAT AND WORKING WITH ANNETTE.

I SEE THEM ALL THE TIME, BONNIE AND DIANA.

WE PLAY CARDS TOGETHER AND WATCH TENNIS MATCHES TOGETHER.

I REALLY LOVE THEM.

>> IS IT SO REALLY EXCITING TO GET AN AWARD NOMINATION?

AGAIN, YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT SINCE YOU WERE -- >> 3.

>> 3?

>> YEAH.

>> BOGGLES THE MIND, RIGHT?

>> SO CUTE.

>> YEAH, IT'S EXCITING.

YOU KNOW, I THINK TRUE DETECTIVE IS ONE OF THE BEST EXPERIENCES I'VE EVER HAD.

YOU'D THINK LIKE, OH, WELL, IT'S NEVER GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.

BUT THEN YOU GET TO 61 YEARS OLD, TRUE DETECTIVE, AND I DO FEEL LIKE WE'RE THIS FAMILY AND WE DID SOMETHING I'M SO PROUD OF.

SO IT'S SURPRISING THAT IT GETS BETTER AND BETTER.

>> JUST TALKING ABOUT A FAMILY, THERE'S THE WHOLE TAXI DRIVER KIND OF CAST, GROUP, THAT'S ALL MEETING AT THE OSCARS, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> ROBERT DE NIRO AND MARTIN SCORSESE AND "KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON."

>> YES.

>> WILL IT BE NICE TO SEE THEM ALL AGAIN, OR DO YOU SEE THEM REGULARLY?

>> NO, I DON'T SEE THEM REGULARLY.

BUT EVERY TIME I SEE THEM I'M LIKE, WOW, DAMN, WE'RE OLD.

>> I READ BY THE TIME YOU DID THAT FILM, YOU THINK -- >> I WAS 12 YEARS OLD.

>> YOU WERE 12, AND YOU HAD MORE EXPERIENCE IN FILM.

>> YES.

>> THAN EITHER MARTIN SCORSESE OR ROBERT DE NIRO.

>> I HAD MADE MORE MOVIES THAN EITHER ONE OF THEM AT THAT POINT.

IT IS FUNNY TO SEE -- I MEAN OF COURSE I HAVE SO MUCH RESPECT FOR SCORSESE AND DE NIRO AND ALL OF THE MOVIES THEY'VE MADE.

BUT, YEAH, MY REFERENCE FOR THEM IS VERY DIFFERENT.

MARTIN SCORSESE HAD A LITTLE FUNNY MUSTACHE, AND HE WAS REALLY YOUNG, AND HIS MOTHER WAS ON-SET THE WHOLE TIME.

SHE WAS ALWAYS LIKE -- >> ON TAXI DRIVER?

>> YEAH.

SHE WAS TUCKING IN HIS SHIRT ALL THE TIME AND PATTING HIS BUTT.

>> AND NOT MAKING SURE YOU WERE OKAY.

>> I DO HAVE A DIFFERENT MEMORY OF THEM.

>> PATTING HIS BUTT.

THAT'S GOOD.

AND JUST BECAUSE, "KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON" IS ANOTHER AMAZINGLY TIMELY FILM IN TERMS OF DIVERSITY AND REPRESENTATION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

>> MM-HMM.

>> DID YOU LIKE THE FILM?

>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT THE FILM.

THEY'RE NOT ANYTHING NEGATIVE.

IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE YOU KIND OF HAVE TO TAKE THINGS IN STEPS.

I BELIEVE THAT I AM SO PROUD THAT THEY WORKED WITH THE OSAGE NATION TO TELL THE STORY FROM AN AUTHENTIC -- FROM THAT EXPERIENCE, FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE INSTEAD OF GOING IN, SAYING WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO, AND THEN DOING WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO.

IT WAS SO -- I AM SO PROUD OF LILY GLADSTONE AND THE ENTIRE INDIGENOUS CAST AND THE OSAGE NATION.

SHE DID A WONDERFUL JOB, AND SO DID THE WHOLE CAST.

I THINK HAVING AN ALLY LIKE MARTIN SCORSESE WHO TOOK HIS PLATFORM AND WORKED WITH THEM, IT'S AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE TO GO FORWARD.

I DID ENJOY THE PERFORMANCES IN IT.

I THINK THAT IT CAN GO -- KEEP GOING IN -- >> KEEP BEING DEVELOPED?

>> KEEP BEING DEVELOPED IN A GOOD DIRECTION.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE GOING FOR US IS WE HAVE THIS THING CALLED STREAMING, AND YOU'RE ABLE TO HAVE LIMITED SERIES.

IT GIVES YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE SOMETHING IN A REALLY DEEP WAY, SOMETIMES A DEEPER WAY THAN YOU COULD EVER DO ON FILM.

AND EVEN THOUGH SCORSESE WAS ABLE TO DO A MOVIE THAT LASTED 3 1/2 HOURS, QUITE LONG, RIGHT, TO EXPLORE THAT WHOLE STORY, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE STORY THERE THAT WASN'T LOOKED INTO THAT I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER TO HIM, PLEASE DO A LIMITED SERIES FOR SIX HOURS SO THAT WE CAN EXPLORE THE WHOLE STORY.

>> ARE YOU MAKING US SOME NEWS HERE?

SOME HOLLYWOOD NEWS?

>> SHOULD I SEND HIM A NOTE, LIKE PLEASE DO A LIMITED SERIES.

>> THAT YOU'LL DIRECT IT AND HE CAN PRODUCE IT.

>> OR HE CAN ACT IN IT.

THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

YOU ARE GOING TO KEEP ACTING.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND KEEP BOXING?

>> I'M NOT RETIRED FROM BOXING YET.

>> I LIKE THAT DIPLOMATIC ANSWER.

>> I MEAN I'VE BEEN BOXING PROFESSIONALLY FOR ALMOST 16 YEARS NOW, AND I'VE SEEN IT EVOLVE, AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

AND IF IT WASN'T FOR BOXING, I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FOUND, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO I LOVE BOXING.

I'LL ALWAYS BE INVOLVED IN IT.

FIGHTERS NEVER KNOW WHEN TO QUIT.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT LONG AT ALL.

>> MAYBE YOU KNOW WHEN TO QUIT WHEN YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING AS AMAZING AS THIS TO STEP INTO.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S REALLY NICE TO HAVE IT, YOU KNOW, BOTH RIGHT NOW.

LIKE I SAID, I HAVEN'T FOUGHT SINCE MY LAST FIGHT IN 2021, AND I'M NOT BANGING DOWN THE GYM DOOR.

BUT IF THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE, BUT I'M GOING TO CONTINUE ACTING.

I LOVE THE STORYTELLING, AND I GUESS I'M OKAY AT IT.

>> IT'S REMARKABLE.

I MEAN BOTH YOUR PERFORMANCES ARE REMARKABLE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND WHAT NEXT ON THE ACTING FRONT FOR YOU?

>> NO IDEA.

>> AND DIRECTING FRONT?

>> DON'T KNOW YET.

IT'S SOMETHING I'M WORKING ON.

HOPEFULLY I'LL BE ABLE TO GET THAT OFF THE GROUND.

>> I'LL GIVE YOU A PLATFORM TO TELL US.

>> I DID TWO FILMS BACK-TO-BACK AS AN ACTRESS, SO I THINK I'D LIKE TO STEP BEHIND THE CAMERA AGAIN.

>> JODIE FOSTER, KALI REIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> TWO WOMEN PACKING A VERY POWERFUL PUNCH.

>>> PRESIDENT BIDEN MET WITH CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS TODAY, PRESSING THEM TO PASS HIS AID PACKAGE FOR UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.

THE FAILURE SO FAR TO DO SO IS HURTING UKRAINE AND UNDERMINING AMERICA ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

POLITICO REPORTER ALEXANDER WARD TAKES A LOOK AT HOW BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY TEAM COPES WITH THESE CHALLENGES IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE INTERNATIONALISTS," AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO TALK ABOUT THE EFFORT TO REPAIR AMERICA'S GLOBAL REPUTATION.

>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.

ALEX WARD, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK "THE INTERNATIONALISTS" IS SORT OF A GROUP BIOGRAPHY OF ALL THE PEOPLE DOING BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY.

BUT ONE OF THE FOCAL POINTS IS JAKE SULLIVAN, ONE OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT IN THE PAST 15 YEARS.

AND YOU START WITH HIM THE NIGHT THAT HILLARY CLINTON, HIS PATRON, LOSES TO DONALD TRUMP, AND HE FIGURES OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM MAY HAVE BEEN.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN HE -- YOU KNOW, AS HE SAID, HE GREW UP SORT OF IN THE TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT, AND HE IS NEXT TO HILLARY CLINTON AS SHE'S CONCEDING TO TRUMP.

AND WHAT HE'S STARTING TO FIGURE OUT IS TRUMP MAY NOT NECESSARILY WON BECAUSE OF HIS FOREIGN POLICY VIEWS BUT HE DIDN'T LOSE BECAUSE OF THEM EITHER.

SO WHAT WAS IT ABOUT WHAT TRUMP WAS SAYING THAT WAS APPEALING TO SO MANY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS?

SO OUT OF POWER, JAKE AND FRIENDS SPEND ABOUT FOUR YEARS IN, I CALL IT THE WILDERNESS, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS THAT WAS APPEALING TO SO MANY PEOPLE AND WHAT COULD BE BROUGHT INTO A DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY THINKING FRAMEWORK TO UPDATE IT FOR THE 21st CENTURY.

THEY COME UP WITH A PHRASE WE'VE HEARD A LOT, WHICH IS A FOREIGN POLICY FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS.

THEIR BASIC POINT IS ANY FOREIGN POLICY DECISION THAT IS TAKEN BY THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO BE EASILY EXPLAINED TO THE EVERYDAY AMERICAN AS TO WHY IT BENEFITS THEM.

AND IF THAT CANNOT BE DONE, THEN THAT MIGHT NOT BE A FOREIGN POLICY DIRECTION WE'RE PURSUING.

>> YOU SAY IT'S A FOREIGN POLICY GEARED TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND YOU USE SOME EXAMPLES LIKE A LITTLE BIT MORE TRADE RESTRICTION HERE OR THERE OR HELP FOR AN INDUSTRIAL POLICY.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN?

THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT ADDS UP TO THAT MUCH MORE WHEN IT COMES TO CHANGING FOREIGN POLICY.

>> NOT NECESSARILY.

BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE WAY THEY FRAME IT.

SO LET'S TAKE UKRAINE.

THEY MAKE TWO GENERAL ARGUMENTS.

ONE IS THE REASON THE U.S.

NEEDS TO DEFEND UKRAINE IS BECAUSE IF RUSSIA IS NOT STOPPED THERE, IT WILL GO INTO A NATO COUNTRY EVENTUALLY.

AMERICAN SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL GO TO WAR.

A LOT MORE MONEY WILL BE SPENT ON THAT FIGHT, MEANING IT WILL BE EVEN COSTLIER IN TERMS OF BLOOD AND TREASURE ENDEAVOR THAN IT IS NOW.

THEN THERE'S THE SECOND ASPECT, WHICH IS WE ARE SENDING OUR OLD MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO UKRAINE AT THIS POINT FOR THEM TO USE AGAINST RUSSIA, WHICH MEANS WE NEED TO DEVELOP NEWER, MORE ADVANCED WEAPONRY TO MAKE OUR MILITARY STRONGER.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS MANUFACTURING JOBS IN OHIO, IN MISSISSIPPI, IN MICHIGAN, IN TEXAS AND KANSAS.

SO THERE IS A REAL MIDDLE CLASS JOBS BENEFIT TO THIS DEFENSE.

THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO SEND TROOPS.

THEY DON'T THINK THAT'S WORTH IT.

THEY THINK UKRAINE IS DOING A WELL ENOUGH JOB WITH THE OLDER WEAPONRY WE HAVE.

BUT WE CAN ACTUALLY DEFEND UKRAINE AND IMPROVE THE MIDDLE CLASS ECONOMIC POSITION WITH THE POLICY THEY'RE PURSUING.

>> BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE UKRAINE WAR HAS BEEN -- OR OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED MORE BY A SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY, AND THAT SEEMS A CORE TO WHAT BIDEN REPRESENTS, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY WHEREVER IT SEEKS TO FLOURISH AS JOHN QUINCY ADAMS WOULD SAY.

HOW DOES THAT FIT IN?

I MEAN MAYBE YOU CAST IT AS, OKAY, WE MAKE A FEW MORE WEAPONS HERE IN FACTORIES.

BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S THE CORE OF THE NEW BIDEN-ISM YOU TALK ABOUT.

>> I THINK IT IS TO AN EXTENT, BUT THE WAY THEY FRAMED IT AS YOU TALKED ABOUT, DEMOCRACY.

NOTHING GETS JOE BIDEN MORE ANIMATED THAN BEING SEEN AS THE PROTECTOR OF DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE.

THAT IS WHAT HE BELIEVES APPEALS TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC AT THIS POINT.

IN THE 2020 ELECTION, ONE OF THE THINGS HE WAS ARGUING IS DONALD TRUMP IS NOT A SMALL "D" DEMOCRAT, THAT DEMOCRACY WAS ON THE LINE.

IT'S THE SAME ARGUMENT HE'S GOING TO MAKE IN 2024.

HE'S TRIED TO CONNECT THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE WITH THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AT HOME.

THAT YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY SAY YOU CAN BE A STRONG DEMOCRACY IF YOU'RE NOT HELPING IF FLOURISH ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.

SO THAT IS A BIG PART OF IT.

BUT SORT OF THE SECOND ORDER ARGUMENTS ARE TRUMP-TYPE ARGUMENTS THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MADE IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE RETHINKING THEY DID AND TRUMP'S VICTORY IN 2016.

>> THE BIG NEWS THIS WEEK IN TERMS OF GREAT GEOPOLITICS IS THAT HUNGARY HAS AGREED NOW TO LET SWEDEN INTO NATO.

WE GOT FINLAND INTO NATO, NOW SWEDEN.

THAT'S A HUGE SHIFT THAT OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS OF FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT NOBODY WOULD HAVE DREAMED OF THAT EXPANSION OF NATO.

HOW BIG OF A DEAL IS THAT, AND IS THAT JUST SERENDIPITOUS, OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS PUSHING FOR?

>> THEY WERE CERTAINLY PUSHING FOR IT ALTHOUGH WE HAVE TO SAY THAT THIS IS FINLAND AND SWEDEN'S OWN DOING.

THEY SAW WHAT RUSSIA WAS UP TO IN UKRAINE, AND THEY HAD BEEN AGGRESSIVE IN THE ARCTIC REGION AND NORTH EUROPEAN REGION FOR A LONG TIME.

SO THEY SAW A MOMENT TO JOIN NATO, AND IT WORKED.

THEIR PUBLICS WERE ON THEIR SIDE OF COURSE.

JOE BIDEN A BIG NATO FAN LIKED THE FACT THAT NATO WOULD EXPAND UNDER HIS WATCH.

SO THIS IS WHY HE SAYS THE LINE CONSISTENTLY, YOU KNOW, THAT PUTIN WAS HOPING FOR THE FINLANDIZATION OF NATO, AND INSTEAD HE GOT THE NATOIZATION OF FINLAND.

IN THEIR MIND, YOU GO A BIT MORE SLOWLY, BUT YOU GO FURTHER WITH ALLIES.

THEY WOULD ARGUE THAT SAY RUSSIA HAD DONE THIS UNDER TRUMP'S WATCH.

ONE, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE THE STAUNCH U.S. DEFENSE OF UKRAINE MOST LIKELY.

BUT YOU COULDN'T HAVE ALLIES COME ALONG AS PART OF THIS WESTERN WALL TO KEEP RUSSIA AT BAY.

>> YOUR BOOK HAS A LOT OF GREAT REPORTING NUGGETS, AND ONE THAT STRUCK ME WAS GENERAL MARK MILLEY TRYING TO CONVINCE BIDEN NOT TO DO THE ABRUPT WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT DISCUSSION AND ABOUT THE FALLOUT FROM THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED.

>> MILLEY ALONG WITH A LOT OF OTHER GENERALS AT THE TIME WERE ADAMANT THAT THE U.S. SHOULD KEEP SOME PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN.

THEY WERE ARGUING ROUGHLY BETWEEN 2,500 AND 3,500 TROOPS BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED THAT THE TALIBAN WOULD EVENTUALLY STORM TO POWER.

AND MILLEY, WHO HAD COMMANDED IN AFGHANISTAN, HAS LOST, YOU KNOW, TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN, WAS TELLING BIDEN, LOOK, IF WE LEAVE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WILL BE SENT BACK TO THE STONE AGE.

THE EDUCATION FOR WOMEN WILL FALTER.

THE DEMOCRATIC PROGRESS THAT HAD BEEN MADE IN THAT COUNTRY WILL GO AWAY.

BUT BIDEN WAS LOOKING FOR A STRATEGY FROM THE PENTAGON AND OTHERS AS IF I AM TO COMMIT MORE TROOPS TO AFGHANISTAN, IF I'M TO CONTINUE THIS 20-YEAR WAR, WHAT DOES VICTORY LOOK LIKE?

AND OVER FOUR MONTHS OF DISCUSSION, NO ONE COULD CONVINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT STAYING IN THE WAR WAS A GOOD IDEA, THAT A VICTORY COULD BE ACHIEVED.

SO HE MADE THE DECISION TO WITHDRAW.

AND OF COURSE WE SAW THE CHAOS THAT ENSUED.

BAKED IN WAS AN INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENT SAID IT WOULD TAKE 18 TO 24 MONTHS FOR THE TALIBAN TO TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.

AND IT WAS ONLY A FEW MONTHS FROM THE DECISION IN APRIL.

WE SAW 13 SERVICE MEMBERS KILLED DURING THE EVACUATION.

WE SAW HUMANITARIAN STRIFE OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT IN KABUL.

WE SAW THE HORRIFIC SCENES OF PEOPLE FALLING OUT OF PLANES.

WE SAW AFGHAN ALLIES OF AMERICANS LEFT BEHIND.

BUT WE ALSO SAW A PRETTY MIRACULOUS LOGISTICAL FEAT TO GET 120,000 OR SO PEOPLE OUT AS KABUL AND AFGHANISTAN WAS CRUMBLING.

ON ONE HAND, YOU HAVE TO HOLD THAT, YES, AFGHANISTAN IS WORSE OFF BECAUSE OF THE DECISION TO WITHDRAW.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO HOLD ON THE OTHER SIDE THE LOGISTICAL FEAT THAT IT TOOK TO GET AS MANY PEOPLE OUT DURING A TUMULTUOUS TIME AND CONSIDER THE STRATEGIC RAMIFICATION.

WOULD IT MAKE SENSE FOR THE U.S. TO BE IN A WAR THAT NO ONE -- FOR WHICH NO ONE COULD ARTICULATE A VISION OF VICTORY?

BIDEN DIDN'T SEE IT.

THAT'S WHY WE WERE OUT.

>> YOU SAID IT WAS A GREAT LOGISTICAL FEAT TO GET EVERYBODY OUT, AND YET IF YOU SEE THE DISORGANIZATION, AND EVEN YOU WRITE ABOUT IT AS IF IT'S A BIT OF A HUBRIS TO THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER.

SHOULDN'T PEOPLE WITH THIS MUCH KNOWLEDGE AND THIS MUCH INTELLIGENCE HAVE PREPARED MORE FOR THE WITHDRAWAL?

>> WELL, THIS WAS ONE OF MY QUESTIONS IS DID NO ONE IN THESE MEETINGS THINK 18 TO 24 MONTHS A BIT TOO POSITIVE OF AN ASSESSMENT?

WHAT THEY SAID WAS NOT REALLY.

OF COURSE OVER TIME AS THE TALIBAN WAS SWEEPING THROUGH THE COUNTRY.

THAT TIMELINE SHIFTED OR DECLINED AND SHRUNK.

BUT THE DECISION WAS MADE, AND THE MILITARY WAS THINKING, LOOK, SPEED IS SAFETY.

WE'VE GOT TO GET OUT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

SO THEY WERE ON A FASTER TIMELINE THAN EVEN THE WHITE HOUSE SUGGESTED.

THE PEOPLE AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT THAT WERE THINKING, HEY, WE NEED TO REFORM THIS PROGRAM TO BRING THE AFGHAN ALLIES OF AMERICANS HOME, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME OR WHEREWITHAL TO DO IT BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE DIPLOMATS IN KABUL.

SO IT WAS A MISS.

WE CANNOT DENY THAT.

IT WAS A MISS THAT THEY REALLY DIDN'T PREPARE FOR THE TALIBAN.

THERE WAS ALWAYS PUBLIC REPORTING AS I NOTE IN THE BOOK ABOUT WHAT THE TALIBAN WAS PREPARING TO DO AND HOW QUICKLY THEY COULD DO IT.

AND THERE WERE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE AFGHAN MILITARY'S ABILITY TO WITHSTAND THAT ONSLAUGHT.

THERE ARE GENUINE QUESTIONS TO ASK OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY MISCALCULATED IN THINKING IT WOULD TAKE A LOT LONGER FOR THE TALIBAN TO DO WHAT THEY DID.

AND I SHOULD NOTE, YOU KNOW, BIDEN TO THIS DAY BELIEVES IT WAS STILL THE RIGHT DECISION TO LEAVE.

HE ASKED NO ONE TO RESIGN.

NO ONE OFFERED TO RESIGN.

AND IF YOU'LL ASK HIM TODAY, HE'LL STILL HOLD THOSE VIEWS.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW STRONG BIDEN WAS IN COMING TO THE SUPPORT OF UKRAINE.

YET YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT AN AWKWARD RELATIONSHIP HE HAD WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

EXPLAIN HOW THEY HAD TO BALANCE THAT.

>> WE SORT OF ALREADY KNOW THAT BIDEN/ZELENSKYY DID NOT GET ALONG AND SEE EYE TO EYE IN THE RUN-UP TO THE INVASION.

THE BOOK REVEALS THAT RELATIONSHIP WAS REALLY, REALLY BAD, SCREAMING MATCH BAD.

AT CERTAIN POINTS, BIDEN WAS BASICALLY TELLING ZELENSKYY WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE THE INTELLIGENCE WE'RE SHOWING AND THAT WE'RE SHOWING OUR ALLIES?

THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING.

YOU NEED TO PREPARE.

RECALL THERE WERE MILITARY ASSESSMENTS, ONE OF MANY, BUT THE STARK ONE WAS THAT KYIV WOULD FALL WITHIN 72 HOURS.

AND THROUGHOUT ALL THESE MONTHS OF BIDEN AND ZELENSKYY CHATTING, ZELENSKYY NEVER BELIEVED THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

HE BELIEVED THAT PUTIN WOULD BE TOO STUPID TO DO THAT.

YOU DID HAVE BIDEN SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO START PROTECTING YOUR CAPITAL, YOUR COUNTRY.

IN THE END, ZELENSKYY AND HIS MILITARY AND HIS TEAM WERE ABLE TO DEFEND KYIV AND WERE ABLE TO DEFEND MANY PARTS OF UKRAINE, AND NOTHING SHARPENS THE MIND LIKE SEEING RUSSIAN TANKS ROLL INTO YOUR NATION.

BUT FOR MANY MONTHS, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TODAY WOULD PROBABLY TELL YOU BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THAT, SURE, A LOT OF TIME WAS MISSED FOR PREPARATION FOR UKRAINE ALTHOUGH CRITICS WOULD NOTE THIS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD SAY THE U.S. SHOULD HAVE SENT WEAPONS A LOT SOONER TO UKRAINE TO PREPARE THEIR MILITARY FOR A GREATER DEFENSE AND PERHAPS SANCTION THE RUSSIANS EVEN BEFORE AN ATTACK.

THIS IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE REASONS WHY ZELENSKYY WASN'T SO CONFIDENT IN THE AMERICAN ASSESSMENT BECAUSE HE WOULD TELL BIDEN IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING, WHY AREN'T YOU FLOODING MY MILITARY WITH WEAPONS?

IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE AN INVASION IS TO COME, I DON'T SEE YOU GUYS PANICKING AS MUCH AS YOU SHOULD BE.

>> AND WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT?

WHY WEREN'T WE?

>> BECAUSE THE FEELING WAS THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE PUTIN NECESSARILY A REASON TO ESCALATE.

RECALL THAT DURING THAT PERIOD, THE U.S. AND THE WEST WERE NEGOTIATING WITH THE RUSSIANS IN GENUINELY GOOD FAITH.

PUTIN WAS PUTTING OUT THESE ARGUMENTS THAT IT WAS BECAUSE OF NATO EXPANSION AND UKRAINE TILTING WESTWARD AS THE REASONS FOR WHY HE WAS CONSIDERING DOING THIS.

THERE ARE SOME AHISTORICAL ISSUES THERE THAT ARE A LOT TO GET INTO.

BUT THE U.S. SAID, FINE, IF THAT'S TRUE, LET'S TALK IT THROUGH.

LET'S SIT AT THE TABLE AND NOT THE BATTLEFIELD.

THAT WAS PART OF IT.

TO THEN PUMP UKRAINE FULL OF WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE DAMAGED THAT DIPLOMATIC PROCESS.

OBVIOUSLY IT DIDN'T WORK.

PUTIN STILL INVADED, AND HE DID WHAT HE DID.

BUT THAT WAS THE GENERAL BET IS THAT IF YOU HELP UKRAINE TOO SOON, IF YOU ARM THEM TOO SOON, THEN PUTIN'S GOING TO HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO IN SOONER.

>> AS WE SPEAK, ISRAEL, THE UNITED STATES, THE ARAB STATES ARE STRUGGLING IN THIS NOTION OF CAN WE GET A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA?

AND ISRAEL SEEMS TO BE RESISTING WHAT IS GENERALLY BEEN THE CONSENSUS PUSHED BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

HAS BIDEN'S HISTORY, HIS SORT OF HISTORY OVER THE YEARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, HELPED HIM HERE, OR IS HE SOMEWHAT HANDICAPPED WHEN IT COMES TO DEALING WITH THE SITUATION IN GAZA AND TRYING TO GET A CEASE-FIRE?

>> I THINK IT'S HELPED HIM, BUT HE'S NEVER REALLY FACED A SITUATION LIKE THIS.

LET'S CONSIDER HAMAS' BRUTAL ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th LED EFFECTIVELY THE ENTIRE NATION OF ISRAEL TO BACK A MILITARY CAMPAIGN TO ROOT THEM OUT OF GAZA.

NETANYAHU IS NOT A POPULAR FIGURE, IS BEING SUPPORTED IN THAT CAMPAIGN.

AND HIS FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT WANTS TO ROOT HAMAS OUT.

AGAIN YOU'VE GOT THE PUBLIC BEHIND HIM.

SO AS MUCH AS BIDEN KNOWS NETANYAHU, DEALS WITH HIM, THE DOMESTIC CONTEXT IN ISRAEL MAKES IT A LOT EASIER FOR ISRAEL TO REBUFF AMERICAN -- WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WOULD SAY SUPPORT -- THEY'RE TRYING TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS BUT IT'S LEADING TO A LOT OF MESSAGING MUDDLE.

AT THIS POINT IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THEY ARE STRUGGLING TO GET ISRAEL TO DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE ISRAEL TO DO.

SO THEY'RE TRYING TO FIND NEW WAYS TO GET NETANYAHU TO FOLLOW AN AMERICAN PLAYBOOK.

>> THE U.S.

PRETTY MUCH TRIED TO FOCUS ON CHINA AND OTHER THINGS AND TO TAKE A FOCUS OFF OF THE MIDDLE EAST AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

JAKE SULLIVAN GAVE A SPEECH RIGHT BEFORE THE HAMAS TERRORIST ATTACK SAYING THAT THINGS HAVE BEEN QUIET THERE, AND WE CAN PUT IT ASIDE.

IN RETROSPECT, DO YOU BELIEVE AND DO YOU THINK THEY BELIEVE IT MAY HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE NOT TO FOCUS MORE ON THE ISRAEL/PALESTINIAN SITUATION?

>> I BET NOW THEY WOULD SAY THAT.

BUT EVEN A FEW MONTHS BEFORE, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE.

WE SHOULD NOTE THAT ONE OF THE BIG CRITICISMS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT THEY SIGNIFICANTLY IGNORED THE ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT AND LEFT THAT TO FESTER DURING THEIR TIME IN OFFICE.

I SHOULD NOTE IN THE MONTHS BEFORE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK, AS THE U.S. WAS WORKING WITH ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA TO HAVE A NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS, A KEY COMPONENT OF THAT WAS TO IMPROVE THE PALESTINIAN SITUATION, GIVE THEM A PATHWAY TO A STATE, ALLOW MORE HUMANITARIAN AID IN, GIVE THEM A SENSE OF BELONGING.

AND THAT WAS PUSHED PRETTY STRONGLY BY THE U.S.

THEY WOULD NOT ACCEPT -- THEY WOULD NOT ENDORSE A DEAL, A NORMALIZATION DEAL WITHOUT IT.

BUT FOR MANY, THAT WAS FAR LITTLE TOO LATE.

THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOCUSING ON THIS ISSUE FROM THE BEGINNING INSTEAD OF LETTING THAT WOUND FESTER FOR MANY YEARS.

ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF BOTH -- I SHOULD SAY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT THEY DID THIS AS A BANK SHOT, RIGHT?

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE WHEN THEY WERE DOING THE ABRAHAM -- THAT WAS WHOLLY IGNORED.

WHILE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CONTINUED THE ABRAHAM ACCORD PUSH, THEY LEFT THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE FOR FAR TOO LATE, AND IT WAS A SIDE BIN.

THE CRITICISM IS THEIR GOAL OF IF WE DO NORMALIZATION WITH ARAB STATES, IT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO HELP PALESTINIANS.

WELL, THAT MAY HAVE BEEN TRUE OVER TIME.

IT'S CERTAINLY NOT TRUE AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

SO THAT BANK SHOT STRATEGY DID NOT WORK.

>> YOU'RE JUST BACK FROM THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE A WEEK AGO.

TELL ME WHAT THE MOOD WAS LIKE THERE BOTH ON UKRAINE AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN GENERAL.

>> AMAZINGLY GLOOMY.

I EXPECTED -- I DIDN'T EXPECT HAPPINESS, RIGHT?

IT'S A TOUGH PERIOD, AND OF COURSE THE NEWS OF ALEXEI NAVALNY'S DEATH OCCURRED IN THE EARLY DAYS, IN THE FIRST FEW HOURS OF THAT CONFERENCE.

BUT I WAS EXPECTING AND MANY WERE EXPECTING THERE WOULD BE SOME SORT OF PLAN TO COME OUT OF THERE.

AND EVERYONE FROM U.S. OFFICIALS, CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS, EUROPEAN OFFICIALS, OTHER OFFICIALS, THEY ALL LEFT WITH KIND OF A HANDS IN THE AIR GOING, NO ONE KNOWS WHAT TO DO.

THERE WAS A SENSE THAT BASICALLY ONLY PLAN "A" AND THE ONLY PLAN IS TO GET SOMETHING THROUGH THE HOUSE.

SO THE AMOUNT OF EUROPEAN OFFICIALS WHO ASKED ME WHAT A DISCHARGE PETITION IS WOULD ASTOUND YOU.

THAT'S HOW CLOSE THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION.

ONE THING I HEARD FROM SENATOR SHELDON WHITEHOUSE AND SENATOR BRIAN SCHATZ.

THEY TOOK ABOUT A STORY ZELENSKYY TOLD THEM, A SOLDIER TAKING ARTILLERY FIRE BUT SCROLLING ON HIS PHONE THAT ANY PACKAGE WOULD PASS THE HOUSE.

THAT'S HOW GLOOMY THE PICTURE IS.

NO ONE COULD NECESSARILY ARTICULATE A WAY FORWARD.

SO IF YOU'RE TEAM BIDEN, YOU'RE SEEING ONE OF YOUR SIGNATURE FOREIGN POLICY ACHIEVEMENTS, LET'S SAY, THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE, CRUMBLE BEFORE YOUR EYES.

>> ALEX WARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND WE HEARD MUCH OF THE SAME IN UKRAINE.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A YOUNG WOMAN FROM STATEN ISLAND, NEW YORK, FLIES PAST BARRIERS AND MAKES A PLACE FOR HERSELF IN AVIATION HISTORY.

CA MORA FREELAND IS A 17-YEAR-OLD PILOT AND NOW SHE'S ONE OF THE YOUNGEST BLACK AVIATORS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SHE JUST NAILED HER PRIVATE LICENSE.

[ APPLAUSE ] PASSING WHAT SHE CALLS THE BIGGEST TEST OF HER LIFE.

HERE'S WHAT KAMORA TOLD OUR AFFILIATE, WABC IN NEW YORK.

>> DEFINITELY AMAZING.

I'M A PART OF THE CHANGE THAT'S DEFINITELY NEEDED, AND, YEAH, LIKE I WANT OTHER LITTLE BLACK GIRLS TO DO THE SAME.

>> KIMORA FLIES OFF TO SPELMAN COLLEGE IN THE FALL.

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