[INTRO MUSIC] >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP -- >>> DESPERATION IN GAZA, WITH MORE THAN HALF A MILLION PEOPLE ON THE BRINK OF FAMINE.

UNRWA CHIEF PHILIPPE LAZZARINI JOINS ME FROM JERUSALEM.

THEN -- >> WHEN I WAS A KID HERE, THERE WERE 11 PRISONS, NOW THERE'S 100 AND SOMETHING.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> IT'S ABOUT MONEY.

>> "GOD SAVE TEXAS."

FROM CRIMINAL JUSTICE TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER, A NEW DOCUMENTARY SERIES TAKING A PERSONAL DIVE INTO THE CONSERVATIVE LONE STAR STATE.

AND I SPEAK TO BEST SELLING AUTHOR LARRY WRIGHT, WHOSE BOOK INSPIRED THE SHOW.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> THIS MASS PROLIFERATION OF GUNS, IT'S JUST BECOMING THIS DE FACTO RESPONSE.

>> WHAT WE'VE BECOME.

LIVING AND DYING IN A COUNTRY OF ARMS.

DR. JONATHAN METZL JOINS HARI TO DISCUSS GUNS IN AMERICA, AND WHY WE SHOULDN'T BELIEVE THE STEREOTYPE OF MENTALLY ILL MASS SHOOTERS.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

HOSPITALS OPERATING WITHOUT POWER.

A LOOMING FAMINE.

AND NEARLY 30,000 DEAD, ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY IN GAZA, WHERE THE SITUATION IS DESPERATE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS PUSHING FOR A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, AND HAMAS POLITICAL LEADERS SAY THE GROUP IS SHOWING FLEXIBILITY IN NEGOTIATIONS, BUT STILL IS READY TO FIGHT.

AN AGREEMENT COULD SEE SOME OF THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES RELEASED, AND A PAUSE IN HOSTILITIES, BUT FOR NOW, THE WAR RAGES ON.

ONE OF THE KEY GROUPS TASKED WITH PROVIDING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IN THAT BESIEGED ENCLAVE IS THE U.N.

RELIEF AND WORKS AGENCY, UNRWA, WHOSE LEADER IS SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT WHAT HE CALLS A MAN-MADE DISASTER.

BUT THE AGENCY ITSELF IS UNDER INTENSE CRITICISM, AFTER THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ALLEGES THAT 12 OF ITS STAFF MEMBERS WERE INVOLVED IN THE OCTOBER 7th HAMAS ATTACKS, WHICH LEFT 1,200 ISRAELIS DEAD AND HUNDREDS TAKEN CAPTIVE.

UNRWA FIRED THEM AND LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION.

AND THE AGENCY CHIEF PHILIPPE LAZ RENO JOINS ME NOW FROM JERUSALEM.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, PHILIPPE LAZZARINI.

CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT THE CRITICAL SITUATION ON THE GROUND?

YOU SAID THIS WEEK THAT HUMANITARIAN AID HAD HALF, THE DELIVERIES THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DO, IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT YOU WERE ABLE IN JANUARY.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER -- JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE FACING THERE.

>> YES, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

AND AS YOU DESCRIBE, YOU KNOW, THIS WAR IS A WAR OF ALL THE SUPERLATIVES.

THERE HAVE BEEN MORE CHILDREN, MORE HEALTH STAFF, MORE U.N. STAFF, MORE JOURNALIST STAFF HAVE BEEN KILLED IN NEARLY FIVE MONTHS THAN IN ANY OTHER CONFLICT ACROSS THE WORLD.

NOW, AS YOU KNOW, THE AID HAS BEEN -- HAS BEEN SO FAR NOT COMMENCE RAT TO THE NEED.

GAZA HAS BEEN UNDER SIEGE AND IN GENERAL, WHEN THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS ASKED THE ISRAEL AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO SCALE UP ITS HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, IN REALITY, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN HAS BEEN A DECREASE, IN FACT, IN FEBRUARY, THE AVERAGE ASSISTANCE HAS BEEN HALF, COMPARED TO JANUARY.

THE TYPE OF PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE FIRST IS A CUMBERSOME ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE ON THE EGYPTIAN AND ISRAELI SIDE, BUT WE HAVE ALSO SEEN OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS A -- THE MAIN CROSSING BEING REGULARLY CLOSED, WHICH MEANS THAT THE FLOW OF CONVOY INTO THE GAZA STRIP IS ABSOLUTELY UNEVEN.

AND BECAUSE THE ASSISTANCE COMING INTO THE STRIP IS SO LITTLE COMPARED TO THE IMMENSITY OF THE NEEDS, THIS HAS ALSO CREATE DESPERATION, CHAOTIC SITUATION,CONVOYS ENTERING INTO THE GAZA STRIP HAVE BEEN REGULARLY LOOTED.

AND I NEED ALSO TO ADD THAT, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT POCKET OF LOOMING FAMINE IN THE GAZA STRIP, PRIMARILY IN THE NORTH, AND WE HAVEN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO BRING ANY CONVOYS FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH SINCE THE 23rd OF JANUARY.

>> EXPLAIN TO ME WHY, IF THERE'S LOOMING FAMINE, WHICH A LOT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SEEMS TO ACCEPT THE DIAGNOSIS OF VARIOUS AID AGENCIES AND THE HEALTH MINISTRY THERE, WHY YOU CAN'T MOVE FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH?

THAT'S NOT -- I MEAN, THAT'S NOT THE BORDER.

IF YOU'VE GOT TRUCKS AND AID IN THE SOUTH, WHY CAN'T YOU MOVE IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT IN THE NORTH?

>> WELL, YOU HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF CHECKPOINT, ISRAELI MILITARY CHECKPOINT, AND YOU NEED TO COORDINATE EVERY MOVE OF CONVOYS FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH, AND IN REALITY, MOST OF OUR DEMAND TO MOVE CONVOYS FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH HAVE BEEN REJECTED.

AND WHENEVER THEY HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED, WE HAD ALSO A NUMBER OF SECURITY INCIDENT.

BUT THE PROBLEM HERE, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A MAN-MADE FAMINE, BECAUSE WE HAVE KIND OF A TOTAL BLOCKAGE, FOR THE PEOPLE WHILE LIVING IN THE NORTH.

THE ANSWER WOULD BE EXTREMELY EASY.

IT'S POLITICAL WILL, IT'S A DECISION TO OPEN A DIFFERENT CROSSING FOR THE NORTH, WHICH WOULD ALLOW TO BRING URGENT AND CRITICAL ASSISTANCE TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAPPED THERE.

WE HEAR MORE AND MORE SITUATION WHERE THERE IS NOT EVEN ENOUGH ANIMAL FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION FOR THE PEOPLE THERE.

>> WAIT, WAIT, LET ME JUST STOP YOU.

WHAT DID YOU SAY?

ANIMAL FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION?

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE RELYING ON?

THERE'S NOT EVEN ENOUGH OF THAT?

>> THAT -- WE -- THERE IS NOT EVEN ENOUGH OF ANIMAL FOOD, ANIMAL FODDER, FOR PEOPLE TO EAT OR TO DO BREAD WITH ANIMAL FODDER.

INDEED.

AND WE HAVE MORE AND MORE STORIES OF THIS NATURE, AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FOOD AND ACUTE FOOD INSECURITY, EVEN IN THE SOUTH, WHERE WE HAVE ACCESS FOR HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, IT IS NOT UNCOMMON THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO SKIP THEIR MEAL, ONE EVERY TWO DAYS.

>> SO, MR. LAZZARINI, I'M GOING TO GET INTO THIS ALLEGATION AND INVESTIGATION, BUT DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE SLOWNESS OF ACCESS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HAS GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT IT HAS BEEN ALLEGED THAT 12 MEMBERS OF UNRWA HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS?

IS IT -- IS THAT THE REASON?

AND THEN WE'LL GET INTO THE -- YOU KNOW, THE ALLEGATIONS, IN A MINUTE.

>> NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE REASON.

>> OKAY.

>> BECAUSE IT DOES NOT IMPACT ONLY UNRWA.

ANY OTHER U.N. AGENCY ARE ALSO PREVENTED TO ORGANIZE CONVOYS FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH AND WE DID NOT HAVE SO FAR ANY ACCESS FROM ANY CROSSING IN THE NORTH TO THE PEOPLE BEING TRAPPED IN GAZA CITY.

>> OKAY.

SO, 18 DONOR COUNTRIES INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES HAVE DECIDED TO SUSPEND FUNDING TO UNRWA AFTER THE ISRAELI ALLEGATIONS.

AGAIN, I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU ARE -- HOW LONG CAN YOU EVEN KEEP WORKING, IF YOU CAN GET THE TRUCKS IN, WHEN YOU ARE APPARENTLY NEARLY HALF A BILLION DOLLARS, YOU KNOW, LOW IN FUNDS.

>> WELL, LET ME START TO COMMENT ON THE ALLEGATION, I MEAN, THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS THAT 12 STAFF MIGHT HAVE PARTICIPATED TO THE MASSACRE OF OCTOBER 7th.

THESE ARE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, THESE ARE HORRIFYING ALLEGATIONS, AND WOULD THIS BE THE CASE, IT WOULD BE NOTHING ELSE THAN A BETRAYAL TO THE AGENCY, BUT A BETRAYAL ALSO TO THE PALESTINIAN IN THE GAZA STRIP.

ONCE THIS ALLEGATION HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATED TO ME, WE HAVE TAKEN SWIFT ACTION.

THE FIRST ONE IS NOT ONLY TO DISMISS IMMEDIATELY THE STAFF, BUT WE HAVE PUT IN PLACE ONE VEST GAME INVESTIGATION, AND WE HAVE ALSO PUT IN PLACE A REVIEW OF ALL THE -- ALL THE -- HOW DO WE SAY, NEUTRALITY AND RISK MANAGEMENT MECHANISM OF THE ORGANIZATION.

SO, ON THAT, WE HAVE REACTED VERY SWIFTLY.

DESPITE THAT, THERE HAVE BEEN, INDEED, 16 TO 18 COUNTRY WHO HAVE DECIDED TO PAUSE TEMPORARILY OR TO FREEZE THE CONTRIBUTION TO THE AGENCY FOR TOTAL AMOUNT OF $450 MILLION.

TODAY, THE AGENCY HAS THE CAPACITY TO OPERATE IN MARCH, BUT BEYOND THE MONTH OF MARCH, IF WE ARE NOT RECEIVING NEW MONEY OR IF WE ARE -- NONE OF THESE DONOR COUNTRIES ARE REVERSING THEIR DECISION, OUR OPERATION WILL BE IMPACTED, OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA WILL BE ON THE MIND, AT A TIME WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO INCREASE OUR RESPONSE.

SO, THIS WILL ALSO IMPACT OUR OPERATION IN THE WEST BANK, IN JORDAN, IN SYRIA, AND IN LEBANON.

IN A REGION WHICH, AS YOU KNOW, GOES THROUGH A LOT OF INSTABILITY.

>> PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, YOU'RE SAYING YOU HAVE ENOUGH FOR ONE MORE MONTH AND THEN IT'S UNKNOWN.

YOU DISMISSED THE -- THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DIRECTLY ACCUSED.

DID YOU RECEIVE ANY EVIDENCE FROM THE ISRAELIS?

HOW -- IN OTHER WORDS, HOW ARE YOU CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION?

DO YOU HAVE THE EVIDENCE?

>> WE HAVE AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION TAKING PLACE.

IT HAS BEEN REQUESTED BY THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ON OUR DEMAND.

THEY ARE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE, UP TO TODAY, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ANY NEW INFORMATION TRANSMITTED TO UNRWA AND TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

SO, FOR THE TIME BEING, THE ONLY ALLEGATION AVAILABLE ARE THE ONE WHICH HAS BEEN SHARED WITH ME ON JANUARY 18th.

WE KEEP NOW CALLING TO THE ISRAELI AUTHORITY TO COOPERATE WITH THE INVESTIGATION SO THAT WE CAN COME TO A SWIFT CONCLUSION ABOUT WHETHER, YES OR NOT THESE PEOPLE HAVE PARTICIPATED TO THE HORRIBLE MASSACRE OF OCTOBER 7th.

>> COULD I ASK YOU TO REACT TO AN IMAGE THAT HAS BEEN CIRCULATING, THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT BY "THE TIMES OF ISRAEL," HAS BEEN PICKED UP BY "THE WASHINGTON POST," AND IT REPORTS THAT ONE UNRWA WORKER WAS -- AND NAMES HIM -- WAS SEEN ON VIDEO KIDNAPPING THE BODY OF AN ISRAELI CITIZEN.

DO YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS ALLEGATION AND WHAT IS UNRWA'S RESPONSE?

>> THESE ARE SHOCKING IMAGES, HORRIBLE IMAGES, BUT AGAIN, WE HAVEN'T SEEN -- WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANYTHING MORE THAN WHAT WE SEE ON THE MEDIA.

THE UNITED NATIONS, UNRWA, HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANYTHING OFFICIAL FROM THE ISRAELI AUTHORITY, DESPITE OUR REPEATED CALL FOR THEM TO SHARE EVIDENCE AND TO SHARE INFORMATION WITH OUR INVESTIGATION TEAM.

>> BUT THAT -- YOU'VE SEEN THE VIDEO.

DOES THAT NAME MATCH A PERSON YOU KNOW?

DOES THE -- CAN YOU DETECT ANYBODY, CAN YOU RECOGNIZE ANYBODY FROM THAT VIDEO?

>> I PERSONALLY CANNOT RECOGNIZE THE PERSON ON THE VIDEO.

AS I INDICATED ALSO, THAT THE NAME WHICH HAVE BEEN TRANSMITTED TO UNRWA MATCH OUR STAFF LIST.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY I HAVE TAKEN THIS SWIFT DECISION NOT ONLY TO TERMINATE THE CONTRACT OF THESE PEOPLE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, TO INITIATE THIS INVESTIGATION.

BUT THE PICTURES SEEN ON CCTV, I CANNOT CONFIRM WHETHER IF THIS PERSON IS REALLY A STAFF MEMBER OF UNRWA.

FOR THAT, WE NEED MORE FORENSIC EVIDENCE TO BE PROVIDED TO OUR INVESTIGATION TEAM, AND WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED IT.

>> GIVEN THAT, I JUST WANT TO PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT.

LOOK, METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING, ISRAEL HAS BEEN AT WAR WITH THE U.N.

SINCE PRACTICALLY THE CREATION OF THE U.N. AND THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

THEY JUST THINK THE U.N. IS STACKED AGAINST THEM.

AND WHEN THESE ALLEGATIONS STARTED COMING OUT, THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE GOVERNMENT SAID THE FOLLOWING ABOUT UNRWA.

>> UNRWA IS A FRONT FOR HAMAS.

IT HAS BEEN FUNDAMENTALLY COMPROMISED IN THREE MAIN WAYS.

HIRING TERRORISTS ON A MASSIVE SCALE.

LETTING ITS INFRASTRUCTURE BE USED FOR HAMAS MILITARY ACTIVITY.

AND RELYING ON HAMAS FOR AID DISTRIBUTION IN THE GAZA STRIP.

IT HAS BEEN COMPROMISED IN A WAY THAT MAKES IT NOT ONLY A TOOL OF PALESTINIAN TERRORISM AGAINST ISRAEL, BUT ALSO AN INEFFECTIVE MECHANISM OF DISTRIBUTING AID TO CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

>> NOW, THAT'S NOT NEW, IT WAS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, BUT WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> THIS -- THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE.

THERE IS TODAY A CAMPAIGN FROM SOME PART OF ISRAEL TO TRY TO DISMANTLE UNRWA.

NOT BECAUSE OF THIS ALLEGATION, NOT BECAUSE OF ITS PROXIMITY WITH THE DE FACTO -- THE HAMAS AUTHORITY IN GAZA, BUT THE REAL REASON BEHIND IT IS TO TRY ONCE FOR ALL TO ADDRESS THE REFUGEE STATUS.

THERE IS A BELIEF IF UNRWA LEAVES GAZA, BELIEVES THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORY, THAT THE REFUGEE STATURE IS ADDRESSED ONCE FOR ALL, AND FOR THIS, ALSO, IT WILL ALSO UNDERMINE THE FUTURE ASPIRATION OF THE PALESTINIAN FOR SELF-DETERMINATION.

>> SO, NORWAY'S PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF TERMINATING THE WHOLE U.N. AGENCY, WHICH IS WHAT ISRAEL IS CALLING FOR, OVER THESE 12 EMPLOYEES, IS NOT THE ANSWER, HE SAYS.

IT WOULD BE LIKE DISBANDING AN ENTIRE POLICE FORCE INSTEAD OF HOLDING BACK ACTORS ACCOUNTABLE.

AND -- HE'S BASICALLY SAYING THAT WITHOUT UNRWA, WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE -- THE HEALTH, THE EDUCATION, THE FOOD, OF THESE 2.3 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE BESIEGED STRIP?

WHO WOULD DO IT IF IT WASN'T UNRWA, AND ISRAEL WAS SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING IT DISBANDED?

>> THIS IS SO TRUE, AND I KEEP SAYING THAT IT IS SHORT-SIGHTED TO CALL FOR THE DISMANTLING OF UNRWA TODAY.

LOOK AT WHAT THIS ORGANIZATION IS ALL ABOUT.

WE ARE PROVIDING PUBLIC SERVICES LIKE EDUCATION, LIKE PRIMARY HEALTH, TO ONE OF THE MOST DECEMBER TUT AREAS IN THE REGION.

NOW, IF TOMORROW, YOU HAVE A CEASE-FIRE, WE WILL ENTER INTO A LONG TRANSITION PHASE.

IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE PRIMARY TOOL TO PROVIDE PUBLIC SERVICES TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF GIRLS AND BOYS, DEEPLY TRAUMATIZED IN THE GAZA STRIP, WE URGENTLY NEED TO BRING BACK AN EDUCATION FRAMEWORK.

WE WOULD JUST SOW IS SEED FOR FUTURE RESENTMENT.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THE STATE OR A STRONG ADMINISTRATION WHICH CAN BRING BACK SUCH A NUMBER OF CHILDREN INTO PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS.

THERE IS NO U.N.

AGENCIES, THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION, AND CERTAINLY NOT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TODAY THAT WILL BE PRESENT IN THE GAZA STRIP.

>> SO, IT WAS -- IT WAS THE NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, BUT HE ALSO SAID, ANY ATTEMPT TO REPLACE UNRWA NOW WOULD BE UNABLE TO MATCH THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND SUPPORT THAT YOU HAVE AND WOULD TAKE TOO MUCH TIME.

OKAY, FINE.

SO, WHAT DO YOU SAY AGAIN TO ISRAEL, PARTICULARLY THE PRIME MINISTER, WHOSE DAY AFTER TALKING POINTS INCLUDE GETTING RID OF YOU.

CAN YOU SEE A SITUATION WHERE ANOTHER AGENCY COULD PICK UP THOSE PIECES?

OR THE ISRAELI STATE ITSELF, IF IT'S THEN IN CHARGE OF THE ENCLAVE?

>> I THINK THIS IS A VERY -- A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO AGENCY GEARED TO PROVIDE PUBLIC SERVICES TO THE SCALE UNRWA IS PROVIDING TO THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES IN THE GAZA STRIP.

SO, IF YOU GET RID OF UNRWA, YOU NEED AN AUTHORITY, YOU NEED A FUNCTIONING STATE TO TAKE OVER THE ACTIVITY.

IN FACT, UNRWA IS, UNFORTUNATELY, A TEMPORARY LASTING AGENCY, AND OUR ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO TRANSFER ALL OUR ACTIVITIES TO AN EMERGING STATE, WHICH WOULD BE THE OUTCOME OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION, SO, THE ANSWER TODAY IS, LET'S HAVE A POLITICAL TRAJECTORY, LET'S ACHIEVE A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

AND MAKE SURE THAT UNRWA ONCE FOR ALL CAN PHASE OUT, BECAUSE WE WOULD FINALLY SUCCEED WHAT WE HAVEN'T SUCCEEDED FOR MORE THAN 75 YEARS.

>> I WANT YOU ALSO TO COMMENT, PLEASE, ON A REPORT IN, I BELIEVE IT WAS "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTING ABOUT A U.S. INTELLIGENCE DOSSIER, WHICH WAS RELEASED SOMETIME LAST WEEK, FEBRUARY 21st.

REPORTING LOW CONFIDENCE THAT YOUR EMPLOYEES HAD PARTICIPATED IN THE AWFUL ATTACKS OF OCTOBER 7th.

IT SAID ALSO THAT ISRAEL'S LONG-STANDING DISLIKE OF THE U.N. AGENCY COULD MISCHARACTERIZE MUCH OF THEIR ASSESSMENTS ON UNRWA, AND SAYS THIS HAS RESULTED IN DISTORTIONS THIS IS ONE PERSON IN AMERICA, APPARENTLY, FAMILIAR WITH THIS INTELLIGENCE DOSSIER.

SO, HAVE YOU BRIEFED THE AMERICANS?

WHAT HAVE THEY SAID TO YOU ABOUT THIS?

BECAUSE THEY SAID, LOOK, IT MAY -- IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED, BUT THEY CAN'T SAY IT WITH CONCLUSIVE CONFIDENCE, ONLY LOW CONFIDENCE.

AND THAT, ON TOP OF THAT, IT SAID THAT IT DISPELLED THE IDEA THAT THE U.N. HAD WORKED WITH HAMAS BEYOND ESTABLISHING HOW BEST TO DELIVER AID.

WHAT HAVE YOU SAID TO THE AMERICANS, AND WHAT HAVE THEY SAID TO YOU ABOUT THIS?

>> TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY NO INTELLIGENCE OR PROOF OR DETAILS WHICH HAVE BEEN SHARED ABOUT THIS ALLEGATION.

THE ALLEGATION SEEMS TO REMAIN ALLEGATION, EVEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE 12 STAFF WHO ALLEGEDLY PARTICIPATED TO THE MASSACRE OF OCTOBER 7th.

THERE HAS BEEN A DOCUMENT WHICH HAS BEEN SHARED WITH THE MEDIA, I BELIEVE ALSO WITH THE U.S., AND WHEN WE HAVE ASKED, WHAT IS IN THIS DOCUMENT, IN FACT, IT WAS NOTHING ELSE THAN THE EXTENDED ALLEGATION OR INFORMATION WHICH HAVE BEEN LEAKED TO THE PUBLIC.

THE PROBLEM TODAY IS THAT MOST OF THE ALLEGATIONS THAT WE HEAR, AND THERE ARE SO MANY ABOUT UNRWA, ARE JUST ALLEGATION WHICH ARE SHARED EITHER THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA OR THROUGH THE JOURNALISTS, BUT NONE OF THEM ARE SHARED WITH THE UNITED NATIONS AND NONE OF THEM TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE ARE ALSO SHARED WITH THE MEMBER STATES.

>> HOW -- FIRST OF ALL, THEY ALSO ALLEGE THAT THERE WERE TUNNELS UNDER UNRWA FACILITIES LIKE SCHOOLS.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO DEAL WITH A SINGLE AUTHORITARIAN TAKE NO PRISONERS OR NO CRITICISM ORGANIZATION LIKE HAMAS, WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO DELIVER AID?

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR YOU TO WORK AROUND THAT?

AND HOW MUCH DO YOU -- I MEAN, ARE YOU EVER FORCED TO COMPROMISE YOUR VALUES FOR THAT?

>> AS AN AGENCY, WE HAVE NOT BEEN FORCED TO COMPROMISE, BECAUSE OUR MANDATE IS REALLY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

IT'S TO BRING TO OUR SCHOOL ANY REFUGEES.

WE HAD 300,000 OF THEM IN OUR SCHOOL, GIRLS AND BOYS, IN THE GAZA STRIP, AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, CHRISTIANE, THAT MANY TIMES ALSO, THE -- HAMAS WAS NOT REALLY PLEASED THAT THESE CHILDREN WERE ATTENDING OUR SCHOOL, RATHER THAN THE SCHOOLS UNDER THE CONTROL OF DE FACTO -- HAMAS AUTHORITY.

AND WE HAVE SEEN IT, FOR EXAMPLE, DURING THE SUMMER CAMP, WHENEVER UNRWA WAS ORGANIZING SUMMER CAMP, ALLOWING CHILDREN TO DO ARTISTIC ACTIVITIES, SPORT ACTIVITIES, WE HAD UP TO 250,000 KIDS BEING REGISTERED.

WHENEVER THE HAMAS AUTHORITY WERE ORGANIZING SUMMER CAMP, THEY HAD ONLY 20,000.

AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS SEEN IN REALITY UNRWA ALSO AS BEING A CULTURAL THREAT.

>> IT'S -- IT'S A REALLY DIRE SITUATION IN TERMS OF THIS, SO MUCH LIFE BEING IN THE BALANCE RIGHT NOW.

PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US RIGHT NOW.

>>> NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY IN 60 COUNTIES, WHERE MASSIVE WILDFIRES ARE TEARING THROUGH THE PANHANDLE.

IT IS THE SECOND-LARGEST WILDFIRE IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE, AND ANOTHER DEVASTATING REMINDER OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

JUST ONE OF THE MANY CHALLENGES PEOPLE THERE ARE FACING, FROM THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

NOW, A NEW HBO DOCUMENTARY SERIES "GOD SAVE TEXAS" IS TAKING A PERSONAL LOOK AT THE OFTEN DARK HISTORY OF THE LONE STAR STATE, WITH THREE DIRECTORS RETURNING HOME TO THE HUGELY INFLUENTIAL AND CONSERVATIVE PART OF AMERICA.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> WHEN I WAS A KID HERE IN HUNTSVILLE, THERE WERE, LIKE, 11 PRISONS, NOW THERE'S 100 AND SOMETHING.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> IT'S ABOUT MONEY.

IT'S INDUSTRY.

>> SEEMS LIKE THE PRISON HAS THIS GRAVITATIONAL INEVITABILITY TO IT.

>> TEXAS IS ABOUT TO KILL AN INNOCENT MAN.

>> WHAT I SAW IS AN UNFOLDING TRAGEDY.

CREATED A KIND OF PANIC IN ME.

>> NOW, THE SHOW IS AN ADAPTATION OF THE BOOK BY THE SAME NAME, BY THE AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST LAWRENCE WRIGHT.

HE'S PRODUCED SOME OF THE MOST DEFINITIVE INVESTIGATIONS OF OUR TIME, INCLUDING ON 9/11 ATTACKS, THE CAMP DAVID ACCORDS AND THE COVID PANDEMIC, AND LAWRENCE WRIGHT IS JOINING ME NOW FROM AUSTIN, TEXAS.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO DIVE INTO "GOD SAVE TEXAS" IN A MOMENT, BUT YOU HAVE REPORTED FROM GAZA, YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF REPORTING IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD, AS A JOURNALIST.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SITUATION THERE RIGHT NOW, AND SOME OF THE CONVERSATION THAT WE WERE JUST HAVING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AID AND THE HORRIBLE POLITICS ALL AROUND IT?

>> YOU HAD A WONDERFUL INTERVIEW.

I WAS VERY INTRIGUED BY IT.

I WAS IN GAZA AFTER OPERATION CAST LEAD, I GUESS IT WAS 2011, I HAD NEVER SEEN SUCH DEVASTATION, WHICH DOESN'T COMPARE AT ALL WITH WHAT WE SEE NOW IN GAZA.

IT -- GAZA, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- IT IS A KIND OF PRISON.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES ISRAEL OBJECTS TO THE TERM THE OPEN AIR PRISON, BUT MOST OF THE GAZANS THAT I SPOKE TO, AT LEAST, THEY'D NEVER BEEN TO GAZA, THEY'D NEVER BEEN TO THE WEST BANK.

IT'S A TOTALLY ISOLATED ENTITY.

AND IT'S NO WONDER THAT THERE IS THIS BUILT-UP ANGER AND FRUSTRATION.

ISRAEL SEEMS TO THINK THAT THEY CAN ELIMINATE HAMAS MILITARILY, BUT I'M SURE YOU'VE SEEN THE POLLS THAT 75% OF PALESTINIANS SUPPORT WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT AWFUL DAY IN JANUARY.

THAT'S HAMAS.

IT WAS NEVER THAT BIG, BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST THE PEOPLE FIGHTING IN THE TUNNELS.

IT'S THE FEELING THAT HAS ERUPTED FROM THE POPULATION, AND I THINK IT'S A TOTALLY MISGUIDED IDEA THAT YOU CAN SIMPLY ELIMINATE HAMAS MILITARILY AT THE COST OF 30,000 OR MORE CIVILIAN LIVES, WITHOUT ENLARGING THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT THAT.

>> LARRY, I JUST NEED TO STOP -- >> YOU MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR ENEMY.

>> YEAH, YOU DO, THEY ARE MEANT TO BE HAVING SOME KIND OF CEASE-FIRE.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, BECAUSE IT IS HIGHLY RELEVANT, THE HUGE ISRAELI PUBLIC OPINION FOR GETTING THEIR HOSTAGES BACK.

AND YOU WROTE A PLAY CALLED "THE HUMAN SCALE," WHICH WAS ABOUT THAT VERY FAMOUS NOW EXCHANGE, I THINK, FOR GILAD SHALIT, THE SOLDIER WHO WAS EXCHANGED FOR MORE THAN 1,000 HAMAS PRISONERS.

YOU EXPLAINED THE, I THINK, THE RELATIVE IMPORTANCE EACH SIDE GIVES TO PEOPLE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU WERE EXPLORING THERE.

>> WELL, WHAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION ABOUT THAT SITUATION IS THE EXCHANGE RATE BETWEEN ONE POPULATION AND ANOTHER.

THEY EXCHANGED HIM FOR 1,000 PALESTINIAN PRISONERS.

AND I CALLED IT THE HUMAN SCALE.

AND, YOU KNOW, IN ONE LIFE CAN EQUAL 1,000, I THINK THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, THE UNDERCURRENT THAT DRIVES POLITICS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IS THE DEVALUATION OF SOME LIVES AND THE OVERVALUATION OF OTHERS.

>> CAN WE SWITCH TO THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT "GOD SAVE TEXAS" AND YOUR BOOKS AND THE SHOW ON HBO, ET CETERA, WHICH, BY THE WAY, I HAVE TO SAY, HBO IS PART OF OUR PARENT COMPANY, WARNER, YOU KNOW, WARNER BROTHERS DISCOVERY.

HOW SHOULD THE REST OF THE WORLD, WHERE I AM, JUST LOOK AT AMERICA TODAY, WHETHER IT BE TEXAS, WHICH IS OFTEN A BELLWETHER OF CERTAIN POLITICS, ALABAMA, THE IVF RULING, YOU KNOW, ALL THE STUFF THAT'S GOING ON, JUST -- THE REPUBLICANS, THE TRUMP REPUBLICANS PREVENTING AID TO SUPPORT A, YOU KNOW, A FLEDGLING DEMOCRACY FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE.

HOW SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT THIS, AND HOW DOES TEXAS COME INTO IT?

>> WELL, THE COUNTRY IS AT AN INFLECTION POINT.

I MEAN, WE'RE MARCHING INTO A VERY DANGEROUS COUPLE OF MONTHS RIGHT AHEAD OF US.

AND I'M NO PROPHET ON THIS, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT AMERICA, THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY, IS GOING TO BE DETERMINED, I'M CONVINCED BY THE ELECTIONS.

AND -- THE THING THAT ONE CAN HOPE IS, YOU KNOW, THIS COUNTRY IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS A KID, TEXAS WAS BLUE AND CALIFORNIA WAS RED.

YOU KNOW?

IT'S -- THESE THINGS CAN CHANGE.

AND WITH TEXAS, WHICH IS THE FUTURE OF AMERICA, BECAUSE IT'S GROWING SO FAST AND BY THE YEAR 2050, IT'S PROJECTED TO BE THE SIZE OF CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK COMBINED.

SO, IT WILL BE DECISIVE IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHY, IT'S A MAJORITY MINORITY STATE.

IT IS THE MOST URBAN STATE IN THE NATION.

IT'S GOT FOUR OF THE TOP TEN MOST POPULOUS CITIES.

IT IS ALSO VERY YOUNG STATE.

ALL OF THOSE ARE CHANGE AGENTS AND DEMOCRATIC VECTORS.

SO, THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE.

AND THE REPUBLICANS IN TEXAS HAVE BEEN SCRAMBLING TO REJIGGER THE ELECTIONS AND, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE TO GERRYMANDER THE DISTRICTS.

AS TON, WHERE I LIVE, MOST LIBERAL CITY IN TEXAS, BUT IT'S GOT FIVE CONGRESSMEN, FOUR REPUBLICANS.

>> WELL -- >> SO, THAT'S WHAT GERRYMANDERING LOOKS LIKE IN TEXAS.

>> SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THREE PARTS TO THIS DOCUMENTARY SERIES.

SO, THEY TACKLE A BUNCH OF THINGS.

THE FIRST ONE I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS BASICALLY THE BORDER, WHERE ONE OF THE DIRECTORS, AND SHE IS THE MEXICAN AMERICAN FILMMAKER ELIANA SOSA.

SHE EXMROERPS HOW CLOSELY LINKS MEXICO IS TO TEXAS, PARTICULARLY IN THE AREA OF EL PASO AND JUAREZ, THE TWO BORDER CITIES.

>> RIGHT.

>> HERE'S A CLIP, AND THEN WE'LL QUICKLY TALK ABOUT IT.

>> YOU CLOSE THE BORDER, IT STRANGLES OUR ABILITY TO LIVE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

>> BUT THERE'S MAGIC IN THE MULTIPLICITY THAT DEFINES THIS REGION IN BEING NOT ONE, BUT MANY IN THE IN BETWEEN.

I DIDN'T ALWAYS HAVE A WORD FOR IT, BUT THE AZTECS DID.

THEY CALLED IT -- >> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE SHE REALLY FOCUSES ON THIS IN BETWEENNESS BETWEEN THE TWO CULTURES, AND AS YOU KNOW, IT'S BECOME A HUGE ISSUE AGAIN IN THE ELECTION, BOTH BIDEN AND TRUMP ARE AT THE BORDER, AND IT'S JUST SUDDENLY TAKEN OVER AGAIN.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT CLIP AND WHAT YOU HOPE THAT THAT PARTICULAR DOC WILL SAY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE BORDER IS SO STIGMATIZED RIGHT NOW THROUGHOUT AMERICA, AND YET WHEN YOU GET CLOSE TO THE BORDER, YOU UNDERSTAND IT ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY.

IT'S NOT JUST THE BLUE STRIP OF THE RIO GRANDE.

IT IS A REGION.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE BORDER IS WIDE, YOU KNOW, BUT -- MAIN STREET OF EL PASO IS THE MAIN STREET OF JUAREZ, IT'S JUST INTERRUPTED BY THE BORDER.

IT'S LIKE ONE GIANT ENTITY.

AND NOW, OF COURSE, IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, MILITARIZED AND IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO CARRY ON THE LIVES THAT THEY USED TO HAVE, WHICH WAS THE FREE CROSSING FROM ONE SIDE TO ANOTHER.

AND IT IS A -- IT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE 2 MILLION PEOPLE CROSSING WITHOUT DOCUMENTATION EVERY YEAR, IT BECOMES AN ENORMOUS TACTICAL PROBLEM FOR CITIES AND STATES TO HANDLE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE NATURE OF THE POLITICS SURROUNDING THE BORDER HAS STIGMATIZED THAT REGION UNFAIRLY.

>> AND THERE ARE PLEDGES IF TRUMP GETS BACK IN, HE'S TALKED ABOUT BIG DETENTION CAMPS, MILITARIZING THE WHOLE SITUATION THERE, BUT TEXAS, ALSO, HAS THE DUBIOUS, YOU KNOW, INFAMY OF BEING THE EXECUTION CAPITAL OF THE COUNTRY, AND MAYBE EVEN THE WORLD.

IN "GOD SAVE TEXAS," THERE IS ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, EPISODE CALLED "HOMETOWN PRISON," AND THIS IS THE WELL-KNOWN FILM MAKER RICHARD LINKLETTER, HE RETURNS TO HUNTSVILLE, IT'S WHERE THE MAJOR EXECUTION PRISON IS THERE, I'VE ACTUALLY VISITED IT.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID, OR, THIS IS A LITTLE CLIP.

>> EVEN TODAY, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM LOOMS OVER MY HOMETOWN.

IT'S NOT JUST PEOPLE BEHIND BARS WHO ARE BEING PUSHED TO THE BRINK, IT'S STATE EMPLOYEES.

>> RIGHT.

>> AFTER THE EXECUTIONS, THIS WAS A LONG WALK.

>> WHAT I WAS WITNESSING REALLY UNNERVED ME.

>> AND THAT'S WHEN I BROKE.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, THEY ARE SET TO EXECUTE ANOTHER PERSON TONIGHT, AND IT IS ACTUALLY INTERESTING, ALSO, TO HEAR HOW THIS DAMAGES THE SOUL OF THOSE WHO ARE DOING THE EXECUING AND PART OF THAT WHOLE EMPLOYEE COMPLEX.

>> YEAH.

I WAS SO MOVED BY RICK'S SEGMENT ON OUR DOCUMENTARIES.

YOU KNOW, HE APPROACHING IT SO HUMANLY.

HE'S NOT -- HE DOESN'T CONDEMN THE PEOPLE, BUT HE CONDEMNS THE ACTIONS, THE, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THE PRISON SYSTEM HAS TURNED INTO AN INDUSTRY, THE WAY THE DEATH PENALTY LINGERS, MAINLY BECAUSE OF POLITICS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- I JUST -- I WAS SO STIRRED BY HIS PORTRAIT OF HUNTSVILLE.

AND ALSO AMUSED.

I MEAN, HE HAD CLASSMATES IN HIGH SCHOOL THAT BECAME PRUZ GUARDS AND SOME WHO BECAME PRISONERS.

ONE WHO DIED ON DEATH ROW.

HIS MOTHER MARRIED A PRISON GUARD AND THEN MARRIED A PRISONER.

AND HIS SISTER HAD HER HIGH SCHOOL PROM IN THE WOMEN'S PRISON.

>> OH, MY.

>> SO, IT'S AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP.

>> THAT REALLY IS.

THAT'S INCREDIBLE.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU'VE ALSO DONE WRITING THAT FICTIONALIZES TEXAS, RIGHT?

THIS IS BASED ON JOURNALISM, BUT "MR. TEXAS" WAS YOUR SATIRE ABOUT TEXAN POLITICS.

WHAT IS IT THAT IS SO ENDLESSLY FASCINATING ABOUT TEXAS?

>> WELL, THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS.

ONE IS THAT WE ARE A MYTH-MAKING STATE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK ABOUT TEXAS, EVEN IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FROM LONDON IN YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT PEOPLE THINK ARE COWBOYS, OIL MEN, YOU KNOW, AND THOSE ARE A BIG PART OF THE STATE, BUT THE MYTHOLOGY THAT WE AWARD THAT IS VERY E VOCATIVE.

I USED TO LIVE IN EGYPT.

I THINK ABOUT THE PHARAOHS LOOMING OVER MODERN DAY EGYPT.

THAT'S HOW THE COWBOYS ARE IN TEXAS.

WE CHERISH OUR CHARACTERS, THOSE THERE ARE SOME RUINOUS ONES IN OUR STATE HOUSE.

BUT IN TEXAS, I LIKE THE WAY THAT PEOPLE TALK, THE SENSE OF INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY, WHICH IS SOMETIMES USED AS A CONSERVATIVE CLUB, BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT I, AS A REPORTER AND WRITER, I ALSO APPRECIATE.

>> REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.

LARRY WRIGHT, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

AND THE SHOW IS AIRING ON HBO NOW.

>>> NOW, TEXAS WAS ALSO SECOND IN THE COUNTRY FOR MASS SHOOTINGS LAST YEAR.

DESPITE PLEAS FOR TIGHTER GUN LAWS, PUBLIC POSSESSION OF FIREARMS HAS ONLY GONE UP IN RECENT YEARS, AND IN HIS NEW BOOK "WHAT WE'VE BECOME," DR. JONATHAN METZL LAYS OUT THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL ISSUES THAT GET IN THE WAY OF PREVENTING THESE RECURRING TRAGEDIES.

AND HE'S JOINING HARI TO DISCUSS WHAT MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE.

>> CHRISTIANE.

DR. JONATHAN MITSLE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

IN 2019, WE TALKED ABOUT YOUR LAST BOOK, "DYING OF WHITENESS," WHICH LOOKED AT THE POLICIES IN THE RURAL SOUTH AND HOW THEY WERE KIND OF WORKING AGAINST THE VERY PEOPLE THAT WERE VOTING FOR THEM.

AND NOW YOU'RE OUT WITH A NEW BOOK CALLED "WHAT WE'VE BECOME: LIVING AND DYING IN A COUNTRY OF ARMS."

ANOTHER GUN BOOK.

WHY GO DOWN THIS ROAD?

>> WELL, ITS GREAT TO BE BACK.

I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE I WAS GOING TO WRITE ANOTHER GUN BOOK.

THE RESEARCH I DID IN 2019 TOLD ME SO MUCH.

BUT YOU'VE NEVER SAID THE FINAL WORD ON THIS TOPIC.

BUT A MASS SHOOTING HAPPENED IN MY HOMETOWN IN NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE.

A NAKED MAN WENT INTO A WAFFLE HOUSE IN SOUTH NASHVILLE, 2:00 IN THE MORNING, FULL OF CELEBRATING YOUNG ADULTS OF COLOR, KILLED FOUR PEOPLE, INJURED FOUR MORE.

AND I'M SOMEBODY WHO STUDIES RACE AND -- RACE AND GUN VIOLENCE AND MASS SHOOTINGS AND MENTAL ILLNESS, AND I FELT LIKE THIS WAS THE STORY THAT NEEDED TO BE TOLD.

IT BECAME QUICKLY FOR ME THAT THIS WAS A PARAABLE OF THE LARGER ISSUES FACING AMERICA.

>> YOU SPEND A COUPLE HUNDRED PAGES TAKING APART THAT ONE STORY, AND IT IS FASCINATING HOW MANY DIFFERENT LAYERS YOU KIND OF UNPACK.

I GUESS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT PEOPLE WONDER IS, HOW DID THIS GUY, WHO CLEARLY ISN'T IN HIS RIGHT MIND, IF HE'S, YOU KNOW, RUNNING BAREFOOT TO A WAFFLE HOUSE AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING WITH A SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPON, HOW DID HE GET HIS GUN IN THE FIRST PLACE?

AND YOU KIND OF ILLUSTRATE THAT THIS WAS NOT BY ANY STRETCH THE FIRST RED FLAG, THAT THE SYSTEMS THAT WE'VE SET UP FAILED.

>> RIGHT, I MEAN, THIS SHOOTER, WHO I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, I -- WHAT I DO IN THE BOOK, FOR MOST OF IT, I TRACK THE STORY OF HOW THE SHOOTER AND THE GUN GOT TO THE WAFFLE HOUSE ON THAT NIGHT, AND AS YOU SAY, THERE WERE SO MANY RED FLAGS.

HE'S -- HE WAS FROM KIND OF SUBURBAN RURAL ILLINOIS, HE HAD BOUGHT HIS GUN LEGALLY, LIKE MANY MASS SHOOTERS DO, BUT OVER THE YEARS LEADING UP TO THE SHOOTING, HE HAD HAD MULTIPLE POLICE ENCOUNTERS, FIRST WITH LOCAL POLICE, YOU KNOW, HAD DONE THINGS INCLUDING JUMPING NAKED INTO A PUBLIC POOL IN ILLINOIS WHERE HE WAS FROM, SHAKING AN AR-15 IN THE FACE OF ONE OF HIS FATHER'S EMPLOYEES, AND IT LEADS UP TO THE POINT WHERE HE ENDS UP IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AT THE WHITE HOUSE, DEMANDING TO SPEAK WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, TRIES TO KIND OF JUMP THROUGH SECURITY, GETS ARRESTED, SO -- HE HAD POLICE FILES EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, AND AS I SHOW IN THE BOOK, AT EVERY STEP, THEY SAY, THIS GUY HAS AT LEAST FOUR SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPONS, BUT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, HIS GUNS GET RETURNED TO HIM OR THEY GET RETURNED TO HIS FATHER, WHO GIVES THEM BACK TO HIM.

AND SO, PART OF THE STORY IS A STORY ABOUT RACE, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO DISARM A WHITE MAN WHO IS DISPLAYING THESE KINDS OF SYMPTOMS, AND AS I SHOW, IT'S -- YOU ALMOST WANT TO SCREAM WHEN YOU'RE READING THING BOO, BECAUSE EVERY STEP, HE'S BASICALLY TELLING PEOPLE WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO, AND ULTIMATELY, HE DRIVES TO TENNESSEE AND COMMITS THIS MASS SHOOTING.

>> I'M HARD-PRESSED TO THINK, IF IT WASN'T A 6 FOOT TALL WHITE GUY, IF IT WAS A PERSON OF COLOR, IF IT WAS A WOMAN -- ALL THESE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DEMOGRAPHICS, THAT ANY OF THOSE RED FLAGS WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TO TRIGGER A DIFFERENT TYPE OF, I GUESS A SOCIETAL IMMUNE RESPONSE.

BUT SOMEHOW, HE'S ABLE TO EVADE ONE AFTER ANOTHER, JUST BECAUSE WE KIND OF GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

>> YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I MEAN, I -- I HAVE A KIND OF ALTERNATE REALITY I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS, IMAGINE THIS SAME SHOOTER, BUT AS A 6 FOOT TALL BLACK MAN, AND I SAY, HE CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HAVE MADE IT PROBABLY PAST THE FIRST POLICE ENCOUNTER, BUT IN THE SECOND POLICE ENCOUNTER, THIS SHOOTER, HE JUMPS NAKED INTO A PUBLIC POOL, AND THEN GETS OUT AND TURNS OUT HE HAS THESE GUNS.

AND SO PART OF THE STORY IS HOW HE'S REPEATEDLY, HE AND HIS PARENTS, ACTUALLY, HIS FATHER, ARE REPEATEDLY GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, BECAUSE, AS I ARGUE IN THE BOOK, EVEN -- EVEN A CLEARLY DISTURBED WHITE MAN IS SEEN AS SOMEBODY WHOSE RIGHTS ARE TO BE REPEATEDLY DEFENDED, IT'S MORE ABOUT THE RIGHT OF SOMEBODY LIKE HIM TO CARRY A GUN, EVEN IN THIS EXTREME INSTANCE, THAN IT IS ABOUT ANY KIND OF DISARMAMENT.

AND THAT'S TRUE IN ILLINOIS AND IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE WHEN HE MOVES TO TENNESSEE AND ULTIMATELY COMMITS THE SHOOTING.

>> THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK, YOU ALSO KIND OF PULL ON THE THREAD OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF RACE, WHEN IT COMES TO HOW WE SEE POLICY, HOW WE SEE GUN VIOLENCE OVERALL, BECAUSE ONE OF THE KIND OF IMMEDIATE REACTIONS AFTER A MASS SHOOTING, ET CETERA, THE DEFENSE IS, WELL, LOOK AT CHICAGO, LOOK AT THE CRIME THAT'S HAPPENING HERE, THAT'S WHERE THE GUN VIOLENCE IS, THAT WE NEED TO BE TACKLING THIS FROM MAYBE A CONSERVATIVE POINT OF VIEW.

BUT THEN YOU END UP -- YOU ALSO SHOW THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY AN INCREASE NOW, IT SAYS, I THINK, 52% OF MAJORITY OF AMERICANS NOW OWN GUNS, THIS INCLUDES LIBERAL AMERICANS AND 41% OF BLACK AMERICANS, THAT'S A 17-POINT JUMP FROM JUST FOUR YEARS AGO.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> IT TELLS ME THAT OWNING A GUN AND CARRYING A GUN HAS BECOME OUR DE FACTO RESPONSE TO MOMENTS OF UNCERTAINTY.

AND IT ALSO TELLS ME THAT THOSE FEELINGS OF UNCERTAINTY ARE VERY PROFITABLE.

I MEAN, WHAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK FOR EXAMPLE IS, AFTER THE POLICE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, THE GUN MANUFACTURERS AND GUN SELLERS SPECIFICALLY TARGETED BLACK AND LATINO AMERICANS, SAYING, YOU NEED A GUN AND THE POLICE AREN'T GOING TO PROTECT YOU.

AND ALSO, THAT WAS BASED IN REAL FEAR OF WHAT PEOPLE WERE SEEING IN THAT VIDEO.

MORE RECENTLY, AFTER OCTOBER 7th, ALL OF A SUDDEN, WE'RE SEEING JEWISH AMERICANS GO OUT AND BUY GUNS WHO HAVE NEVER BOUGHT GUNS BEFORE.

AND SO, IN A WAY, TO ME, IT KIND OF IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM THAT WHEN WE -- WHEN WE DESTROY THE INSTATION THAT KEEPS US FEELING CONNECTED, THINKING THAT WE'RE IN THE SAME NETWORK, THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN, EVERYONE IS OUT FOR THEMSELVES, AND THAT'S IN A WAY WHY I FALL BACK ON A, WE NEED TO REBUILD CIVIC AND DEMOCRATIC INFRASTRUCTURE ARGUMENT IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE THIS MASS PROLIFERATION OF GUNS, IT'S JUST BECOMING THIS DE FACTO RESPONSE, BUT IT IS ALSO A BIGGER SYMBOL, REALLY, OF THE DEMISE OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE THAT MAKES US FEEL LIKE WE'RE ALL CONNECTED.

>> WHAT YOU POINT OUT IN THIS PARTICULAR REALLY TRAGIC CASE IS THAT THIS ACT OF VIOLENCE THAT HE PERPETRATED ON THESE PEOPLE LED TO THE PURCHASE OF MORE WEAPONS.

>> WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE MEDIA RIGHT AFTER THE SHOOTING HAPPENED, I GAVE WHAT ILL I THOUGHT WAS THE STANDARD LINE, WE NEED MORE RED FLAG LAWS, WE NEED MORE BACKGROUND CHECKS, WE NEED ASSAULT WEAPONS BANS, THAT'S KIND OF THE STANDARD FOR LIBERAL PUBLIC HEALTH PEOPLE, AND I STILL DO BELIEVE THAT, BUT IN THE BOOK, I UNPACK WHY THAT DOESN'T WORK, AND I REALLY, I MEAN, PART OF WHAT'S BEEN CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT THE BOOK IS, I REALLY TAKE ON THE ARGUMENTS OF BOTH SIDES AND PARTICULARLY THE ARGUMENTS OF BOTH SIDES AND TRY TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT GUN DEBATE THAN THE ONE WE'RE HAVING.

AND SO, PART OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR LIBERALS LIKE ME TO GET ON TELEVISION AFTER EVERY MASS SHOOTING AND SAY, WE NEED MORE BACKGROUND CHECKS, MORE RED FLAG LAWS, IT WAS JUST SO CLEAR THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED IN THIS CASE OR MANY OTHER MASS SHOOTINGS.

BECAUSE THEY INVOLVE GOVERNMENT DATABASES THAT MANY GUN OWNERS DISTRUST, BECAUSE, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, JUST THE POLITICS OF RACE REALLY IMPACT WHO GETS TO CARRY A GUN AND WHO IS SEEN AS A PATRIOT.

AND ALSO BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE, FOR ME, THE -- YOU KNOW, THE NRA SIDE HAS BEEN SO GOOD AT RALLYING THE LIBERAL RESPONSE BY PEOPLE LIKE ME INTO SCARING PEOPLE THAT PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE GOING TO TAKE THEIR GUNS, SO, THAT LEADS TO MORE GUN SALES, IT LEADS TO MORE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE DOMINATED BY, FOR EXAMPLE, NRA-ANOINTED JUDGES.

AND SO, REALLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IN THE BOOK IS USE THIS SHOOTING TO SHOW CERTAINLY WHY THE NRA SIDE HAS USED THESE TRAGEDIES FOR ITS OWN PURPOSES, AND THAT'S PART OF IT, BUT ALSO THE LIMITATIONS OF WHAT I THOUGHT WAS MY STANDARD APPROACH, THINKING ABOUT NEW WAYS FORWARD.

>> YOU POINTED OUT THAT DURING THE SHOOTER'S TRIAL, WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE TENNESSEE LEGISLATURE WAS PRETTY COUNTER INTUITIVE.

EXPLAIN.

>> THAT'S PART OF THE RACE STORY I TELL IN THE BOOK.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD THIS -- I MEAN, THE PATHOLOGY OF A NAKED WHITE SHOOTER WITH AN AR-15 KILLING YOUNG PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOUNG ADULTS OF COLOR, IT JUST COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE CLEAR.

AND WHAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS, TENNESSEE HAD TWO WAYS TO GO.

WE COULD HAVE SAID, LET'S LEARN FROM THIS TRAGEDY OR FIGURE OUT A WAY, OR WE COULD HAVE SAID, WELL, THIS MEANS WE NEED MORE GUNS, AND I REALLY CENTER A LOT ON THE BOOK IN A GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION THAT HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER THE MASS SHOOTING, 2018 GOVERNOR'S ELECTION IN TENNESSEE, AND THERE WERE PUBLIC HEALTH CANDIDATES AND THERE WAS ONE CANDIDATE, BILL LEE, WHO SAID, THIS MEANS WE NEED MORE GUNS, I'M GOING TO ACTUALLY DO AWAY WITH ALL THE GUN LAWS AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, RIGHT AFTER THE SHOOTING, TENNESSEE ELECTED A GUY WHO DID THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT WOULD HAVE DONE TO STOP THE SHOOTING, AND THEN THE BOOK ENDS WITH ANOTHER EXAMPLE IN 2022, WHERE THE SHOOTER WENT TO TRIAL, YOU KNOW, FIVE YEARS AFTER THE SHOOTING, THEY COULDN'T CHARGE HIM WITH A GUN LAW, BECAUSE BETWEEN WHEN HE COMMITTED THE CRIME AND WHEN HE WENT TO TRIAL, CARRYING THE GUN THE WAY HE DID WASN'T A CRIME ANYMORE.

SO, WE KEEP DOING THE THING THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IN A WAY, AND I REALLY TRY TO ASK, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT >> ALONG WITH TAKING APART KIND OF HOW THE PUBLIC HEALTH ARGUMENT HAS IN SOME WAYS FAILED US, YOU ALWAYS TAKE A LOOK AT MENTAL HEALTH, AND HOW, YOU KNOW, OUR FOCUS RIGHT NOW ON MENTAL ILLNESS AS THE REASON TO BLAME FOR WHAT THESE PURPOSE TRAITORS DO, I MEAN, WHERE DOES THAT FALL SHORT?

>> WELL, I'M A PSYCHIATRIST, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS AN IMPORTANT ROLE FOR MENTAL HEALTH, JUST NOT THE ROLE THAT WE'VE BEEN PUT IN A LOT OF TIMES, IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT I SHOW IN THE BOOK IS THAT AFTER MANY MASS SHOOTINGS, FOR UNDERSTANDABLE REASONS, MANY MASS SHOOTERS, INCLUDING THE WAFFLE HOUSE SHOOTING THAT I WRITE ABOUT, SUFFER FROM SYMPTOMS OF MENTAL ILLNESS, BUT AS I SHOW IN THE BOOK, THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS SAYING THAT THE MENTAL ILLNESS WAS THE ONLY THING THAT DROVE THEM TO COMMIT THEIR CRIMES.

IN FACT, WHEN I START TO LIST OUT ALL THE FACTORS THAT LEAD TO MASS SHOOTINGS, MENTAL ILLNESS OFTEN ISN'T IN THE TOP 30.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, LOOSE GUN LAWS, HISTORY OF VIOLENCE, HISTORY OF SUBSTANCE USE, ALL THESE OTHER FACTORS.

AND SO, I TRY TO BE VERY AWARE OF THAT.

I DO THINK THERE'S A ROLE FOR MENTAL HEALTH, BUT WHAT WE SAW FOR A LONG TIME IS THAT MENTAL HEALTH WAS THE ONE THING THAT THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT COULD AGREE ON, IN OTHER WORDS, PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WOULD SAY, IT'S NOT A GUNS PROBLEM, IT'S A MENTAL ILLNESS PROBLEM, BUT PEOPLE ON THE LEFT WOULD SAY, WELL, LOOK, WE HAVE THE NEW YORK SAFE ACT FOR EXAMPLE, OR IN TENNESSEE, WHERE I LIVE, LEGISLATION AFTER A MASS SHOOTING THAT SAID, MENTAL HEALTH PRACTITIONERS ARE THE ONES WHO NEED TO BE THE ONES WHO ARE ALERTING AUTHORITIES IF PATIENTS ARE BEING THREATENING.

AND REALLY WHAT I DO IN THE BOOK, I HOPE BY THE END OF THE BOOK, PEOPLE WILL REALIZE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE MENTAL HEALTH AS PART OF THIS CONVERSATION, BUT PUTTING MENTAL HEALTH PRACTITIONERS AT THE FRONT BY THEMSELVES OF THIS ISSUE, IN A PREDICTIVE ROLE, REALLY IS STATISTICALLY -- JUST DOESN'T REALLY DO THE JOB WE WANT IT TO IN A WAY.

IT'S BASED ON STEREOTYPES OF MENTAL ILLNESS.

MANY, MANY PEOPLE COME TO MENTAL HEALTH PRACTITIONERS VOICING SOME KIND OF VOS TILLTY, BUT ONLY A MINUSCULE PERCENTAGE OF THEM GO ON TO COMMIT CRIMES.

AND THE OTHER POINT IS, I JUST THINK MENTAL HEALTH EXPERTISE IS VERY USEFUL AT LOOKING AT THE BIGGER ISSUE, WHICH IS THE POLARIZATION AROUND GUNS IN AMERICA, AND THAT IS NEVER PART OF THE FORMULATION.

>> SO, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE NEW WAYS FORWARD THAT YOU FIGURED OUT, I GUESS, IN THE WRITING OF THIS BOOK, DOING THE RESEARCH, I MEAN, WHAT CAN WE KIND OF LEARN FROM HOW THE NRA WAS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE THEIR VIEWPOINT TO PEOPLE?

BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO CAPTURE THE ESSENCE OF WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO OWN A WEAPON, OR THE FREEDOM THAT THAT SORT OF BRINGS ABOUT, VERSUS KIND OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH ARGUMENT THAT WE KIND OF HEARD FROM SAYING, OH, WE REALLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS AS A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE AND AS A HEALTH PROBLEM.

>> PART OF WHAT I SAW, OF COURSE, IN THE SHOOTING THAT I STUDIED, BUT THEN IN THE HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF MASS SHOOTINGS THAT HAPPENED WHILE I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, IS THAT THERE WAS THIS DIVIDE WHERE ONE SIDE CHANNELS EVEN RECENTLY BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE NRA CONVENTION A FEW WEEKS AGO, SAID, I'M GOING TO LET YOU KEEP YOUR GUNS AND KEEP YOUR POWER.

HE'S ALIGNING GUNS WITH POWER, AND GUNS ARE VERY TACTILE.

AND TELLING PEOPLE THAT YOUR SELF-DEFENSE IS YOUR OWN, YOUR OWN -- THE GUN IS YOUR OWN -- YOUR OWN FIRST RESPONDER, AS SOMEBODY TOLD ME, IT'S YOUR TACTILE MATERIAL RESPONSE.

AND THEN PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO ARE ARGUING FOR ABSTRACT GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, DATABASES, RULES AND REGULATIONS, WHICH I THINK ARE IMPORTANT, AND I WISH WE HAD THEM, BUT THEY END UP JUST PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING, LOOK, THOSE GUYS ARE PROMOTING BIG GOVERNMENT.

AND SO, WHAT I DO IN THE BOOK, TOWARD THE END, I TRY TO IMAGINE A NEW KIND OF GUN DEBATE THAT'S BASED IN BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE.

I ARGUE FOR MAKING PUBLIC SAFETY AND ENTREPRENEURIAL PROJECT, BRINGING IN -- I USE RESEARCH, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT TALKS ABOUT HOW THERE ARE THESE SMALL STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT IF YOU FIX STREET LIGHTS AND OPEN UP GREEN SPACE AND INVEST IN EDUCATION AND JOBS PROGRAMS, THAT ACTUALLY THAT REDUCES GUN CRIME, AND THOSE ARE JUST TRIED IN LITTLE AREAS.

AND I TRY TO IMAGINE, WHAT IF THAT WAS YOUR NATIONAL POLICY?

WHAT IF WE WEREN'T ARGUING ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT, WHICH, YOU KNOW, WE STILL WILL BE, BUT ALSO SAID, HOW CAN WE BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE IN WAYS THAT MAKE PUBLIC SPACE IN PARTICULAR FEEL SAFE, MAKE IT FEEL WELL-LIT, TO USE THAT METAPHOR, AND I KIND OF GO DOWN THAT PATH, THAT -- IF WE COULD COME TOGETHER ON THIS INFRASTRUCTURE, I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT.

BUT I ALSO ARGUED THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED A BROADER COALITION THAN THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW, IN A WAY -- A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THEY BELIEVE THIS THINGS LIKE BACKGROUND CHECKS, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WILL VOTE ON THOSE ISSUES, AND SO ULTIMATELY, IT'S BUILDING A BROADER COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEY'RE UNDER THIS UMBRELLA.

>> NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK, AND PART OF YOUR RECOMMENDATION, ONE WAS DEVELOP A BETTER SOUTHERN STRATEGY WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WHAT I TRY TO SHOW IS JUST WHY A LOT OF THE INTERVENTIONS THAT I THINK WERE WELL INTENTIONED WHEN THEY WERE DEVISED PROBABLY IN THE HAY DAY OF PUBLIC HEALTH IN THE 1990s AND 2000s, THEY PROBABLY MADE SENSE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE BLUE STATE AMERICA WHERE THESE WERE BEING FRAMED, AND THEN IN LIGHT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HAD WORKED, YOU KNOW, AGAINST CIGARETTES AND CARS, BUT I THINK WE NEED POLICIES THAT UNDERSTAND THE HISTORIES OF GUNS IN THE SOUTH, THE MEANINGS OF GUNS IN THE SOUTH.

AND THAT IN A WAY TRY TO INTERVENE.

LET ME JUST BE CLEAR.

I THINK A LOT OF THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT, BECAUSE WHAT I LEARNED FROM STUDYING THE NRA IN THIS BOOK, THEY REALLY DID START AS A GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATION, AND THEY DIDN'T START BY WANTING TO TAKE OVER THE SUPREME COURT, THEY GOT THEIR POWER BY GRASS ROOS GROUPS AND RUNNING FOR SCHOOL BOARD AND ELECTION BOARD, ALL THESE OTHER FACTORS, AND IN A WAY, I THINK A LOT OF THAT'S HAPPENING, IT'S HAPPENING IN TENNESSEE RIGHT NOW, DAVID HOG HAS A NEW ORGANIZATION THAT'S RUNNING, USING THE FRAME OF GUN SAFETY, BUT HAVING PEOPLE RUN FOR -- RUN FOR OFFICE ALL UP AND DOWN THE BOARD ACROSS -- IN A WAY RED STATE AMERICA.

I DO THINK THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE WHATTING.

AND AGAIN, DO I THINK THERE ARE WAYS WE CAN FORM ALLIANCE IN MORE SUSTAINED WAYS THAN WE HAVE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE GUN OWNERS WHO ALSO WANT TO SEE THIS PROBLEM CHANGED.

>> AUTHOR JONATHAN METZL, THE BOOK IS CALLED "WHAT WE'VE BECOME: LIVING AND DYING IN A COUNTRY OF ARMS."

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> IDEAS AND SOLUTIONS FOR THIS SCOURGE.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, YULIYA NAVALNYA, THE WIDOW OF ALEXEI NAVALNY HAS VOWED TO CONTINUE HIS WORK AND FIGHT FOR A, QUOTE, FREE RUSSIA.

SHE SAID EUROPEAN LEADERS NEED TO STOP BEING BORING IF THEY WANT TO DEFEAT RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> YOU CANNOT HURT PUTIN WITH ANOTHER RESOLUTION OR ANOTHER SET OF SANCTIONS.

THAT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE PREVIOUS ONES.

YOU CANNOT DEFEAT HIM BY THINKING HE'S A MAN OF PRINCIPLE WHO HAS MORALS AND TRUTH.

>> ANOTHER STRONG MESSAGE FROM A GRIEVING WOMAN.

NAVALNY'S FUNERAL WILL BE HELD ON FRIDAY IN RUSSIA.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

♪♪