>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

AFTER NEO-NAZIS DEMONSTRATED OUTSIDE BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL AGAINST TWO DOCTORS WORKING ON RACIAL HEALTH EQUITY, GBH NEWS INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER PHILLIP MARTIN STARTED DIGGING INTO THE HISTORY.

HE JOINS ME ON THAT.

THEN, LATER, CNN PRESIDENT JEFF ZUCKER IS OUT FOR FAILING TO DISCLOSE A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH A COLLEAGUE, A MOVE THAT RAISES A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT BOTH THE PAST AND FUTURE OF THE NETWORK.

♪♪ >> O'Connell: THE RISE OF RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM IN THE UNITED NATIONS HAS BEEN ON EXPERTS' RADARS FOR YEARS, AND MASSACHUSETTS IS NO EXCEPTION, AS WE SAW THE WEEKEND BEFORE LAST.

AROUND TWO DOZEN MEMBERS OF A WORCESTER-BORN NEO-NAZI GROUP STOOD OUTSIDE BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL WITH A LARGE BANNER CLAIMING THE HOSPITAL "KILLS WHITES," AND THEY PASSED OUT FLYERS WITH THE NAMES AND PHOTOS OF TWO DOCTORS WORKING ON HEALTH EQUITY FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, CLAIMING THEY'RE PUSHING "ANTI-WHITE, GENOCIDAL" MEDICAL TREATMENT POLICIES.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S JUST THE LATEST INSTANCE OF THREATS LEVELED AGAINST DOCTORS MICHELLE MORSE AND BRAM WISPELWEY, AND BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S AT LARGE.

THEY STARTED LAST SPRING, AFTER THE PAIR PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN "BOSTON REVIEW" TITLED "AN ANTI-RACIST AGENDA FOR MEDICINE."

GBH NEWS INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST PHILLIP MARTIN HAS REPORTED EXTENSIVELY ON THIS STORY, AND HE JOINS ME NOW.

>> O'Connell: PHILLIP, GREAT TO SEE YOU IN PERSON.

>> IT IS A PLEASURE SEEING YOU IN PERSON, SUE.

>> O'Connell: THIS IS SHOCKING ON A NUMBER OF LEVELS, EXCEPT IT IS NOT NEW.

FIRST, TELL ME WHAT THESE TWO DOCTORS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON, WHAT THEIR AGENDA IS, WHAT THEIR PUBLIC HEALTH VIEW IS.

>> THEY BOTH COME FROM -- THEY'RE INTERNISTS AND PUBLIC HEALTH PHYSICIANS, AND THEY COME FROM A POSITION OF COMMUNITY, AND LOOKING AT EXCLUSION.

AND ONE OF THE AREAS OF EXCLUSION THAT THEY LOOKED AT WAS IN CARDIAC MEDICINE.

AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS WORKING WITH A GROUP OF ABOUT 15 OTHER DOCTORS, THAT IN 2015 THEY DISCOVERED, GOING THROUGH DATA, THAT AS BLACK AND LATINO PATIENTS WERE BEING ADMITTED TO BRIGHAM, THEY WERE FOR CARDIAC CONDITIONS -- SERIOUS CARDIAC CONDITIONS -- AND MANY WERE BEING SEEN IN GENERAL PRACTICE.

CONSIDERABLY MORE WHITE PATIENTS, ACCORDING TO THE DATA, WERE BEING SEEN IN CARDIAC MEDICINE, A SPECIFIC AREA -- A SPECIFIC AREA OF THE HOSPITAL.

THE RESULT WAS THAT YOU HAD MUCH WORSE OUTCOMES FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR THAN YOU HAD FOR WHITE PATIENTS.

AND THEY SAW THIS AS A FORM OF INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM, AND DECIDED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

BASED ON THEIR CORE PHILOSOPHY, WHICH IS EQUITY, AND IF YOU WANTED ANY BETTER EXAMPLE OF HOW TO ACHIEVE EQUITY, IT HAD TO OCCUR IN AN AREA WHERE THE MAJORITY OF SERIOUS CASES WERE RELATED TO CARDIAC UNREST.

>> O'Connell: AND I DON'T THINK -- YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE LIVING UNDER A ROCK FOR THE PAST 400 YEARS TO NOT KNOW THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING, RIGHT?

WE'VE LOOKED AT STUDIES OF WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN MEN HAVE BEEN TREATED.

MEDICAL SCIENCE HAS BEEN WORKING HARD TO BE FAIR AND EQUITABLE IN TREATING THEIR PATIENTS.

WHAT IS THE POINT THIS NEO-NAZI GROUP IS TRYING TO MAKE?

HOW IS THIS KILLING WHITES?

HOW IS SPREADING HEALTH CARE TO EVERYONE IN AN EQUITABLE FASHION, HOW IS THAT TAKING AWAY FROM TREATING WHITE PEOPLE?

>> I THINK -- LET'S ADDRESS THIS IN TWO WAYS, SUE.

I THINK THE FIRST WAY WE SHOULD ADDRESS THIS IS THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THIS.

AND IF THEY DO BELIEVE IT, IT IS IRRELEVANT.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY SEE IS AN ISSUE THEY CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, GLOB ON TO.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP SAID AT A RALLY SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, AND DONALD TRUMP GOT HIS IDEAS FROM THE RIGHT-WING MEDIA SPHERE, WHERE THIS IDEA THAT BY CREATING EQUITY IN MEDICINE, YOU'RE SOMEHOW TAKING AWAY FROM WHITE PATIENTS, WHICH HAS BECOME, LIKE A LOT OF THINGS IN THE TRUMP SPHERE, A LIE.

THESE FALSEHOODS HAVE TAKEN ON A LIFE OF THEIR OWN, MYTHOLOGY, THAT POLITICIANS SEE ADVANTAGE IN.

IT IS PRETTY MUCH LIKE THE MYTHOLOGY OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

MANY ON THE FAR RIGHT -- AND THE FAR RIGHT, OF COURSE, HAS BECOME THE NORMAL.

IT IS THE MAINSTREAMING OF EXTREMISM, IS HOW I LIKE TO PUT IT.

SO IT'S -- THEY CAN'T BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

ANDREA KABRAL ON BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO PUT IT SUS SUCCINCTLY.

IT IS A MAIN TALKING POINT OF THE RIGHT-WING MEDIA SEVEREMEDIASPHERE THAT THEY SEE AS ADVANTAGE.

>> O'Connell: PROBABLY LIKE YOU, I FEEL LIKE I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THIS GROUP TOO MUCH ATTENTION BECAUSE THEY DON'T SEEM LIKE A BIG GROUP.THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING AT S TO, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEM A LITTLE BIT.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE SEEN EVOLVING OVER THE DECADE IS THE WAY THESE NEO-NAZI GROUPS HAVE BEEN PRESENTING THEMSELVES, THEY HAVE TAKEN A PAGE OUT OF ALMOST EVERY GROUP THAT HAS WORKED TO GET ACCEPTANCE, PUTTING ON KHAKIS, NOT USING A SWASTIKA, BUT PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS THIS NORMAL GROUP OF GUYS WHO HAPPEN TO BE OUT PROTESTING IN FRONT OF A HOSPITAL ON A WINTER DAY.

CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT BOW WHOBIDDERBIT ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AND WHERE THEY COME FROM?

>> THEY HAVE BASICALLY TAKEN A PAGE FROM NATIONALIST SOCIALIST MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

NOT THE ARYAN GROUP SO MUCH, THAT IS A GROUP INSIDE PRISON, BUT THERE ARE OTHER GROUPS.

THEY HAVE DECIDED, LIKE DAVID DUKE FROM THE KU KLUX KLAN, TO DROP THE HOODS, AND THEY'RE DROPPING THE SWASTIKAS, SUBSTITUTING IT FOR OTHER SYMBOLS.

THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS GROUP, CALLED THE NATIONALIST SOCIAL CLUB, THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL NAMED CHRIS HOOD, WHO IS FROM WORCESTER.

HE HAS BEEN KICKED OUT OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING OTHER NEO-NAZI GROUPS.

HE WAS KICKED OUT OF A GROUP CALLED THE BASE FOR THEFT.

SO HE DECIDED TO FOUND HIS OWN CLUB.

AND THEY HAVE LARGELY BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL, AND THEY EXIST BASICALLY TO PASS OUT FLYERS AND STICKERS AND TO PROTEST IN FRONT OF HOSPITALS.

AND THEIR HOPE IS TO GROW.

AND THIS GROUP HAS BEEN AROUND, AGAIN, SINCE 2019.

THEY HAVE CAPTORS THROUGHOUT NEW ENGLAND, RELATIVELY SMALL, AND THEY HAVE CHAPTERS APPARENTLY IN FRANCE AND KENTUCKY AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PLACES.

SO WHAT THEY REPRESENT MIGHT BE A SMALL ORGANIZATION, BUT THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE SAYS THEY'VE EXPERIENCED SOME GROWTH DURING THE TRUMP PERIOD, DURING THIS PERIOD OF -- AND IN THE POST-TRUMP PERIOD.

THEY STARTER TO EXPERIENCING GROWTH, LIKE A LOOT OF NEO-NAZI GROUPS, DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

THERE ARE 121 IN THE UNITED STATES, ACCORDING TO THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER -- >> O'Connell: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DOCTORS.

WE'RE IN A WORLD WHERE DOING A REGULAR JOB, LIKE BEING A TEACHER, WORKING IN THE ELECTION DEPARTMENT IN YOUR HOME TOWN -- >> A LIBRARIAN -- >> O'Connell: -- WORKING AS A KINDERGARTEN TEACHER OR A DOCTOR, SUDDENLY PUTS YOU IN THE SPOTLIGHT TO GET DEATH THREATS, THREATS TO, TO BE FEARFUL FOR DOING THE JOB YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.

HOW DO THE DOCTORS FEEL?

>> MANY OF THEM, OF COURSE, ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR OWN SAFETY.

BUT THEY ARE NOT SO CONCERNED THAT THEY'RE GOING TO REFOCUS THEIR ATTENTION ON SOMETHING ELSE.

OF THOSE WHO ARE FOCUSED ON EQUITY WILL CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON EQUITY.

DR. MORSE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO LEADS A LARGE EQUITY NETWORK, MEDICAL EQUITY NETWORK, IN THE UNITED STATES, SHE -- LOOKING AT HER SOCIAL MEDIA FEED TODAY, HUNDREDS, HUNDREDS OF NEW FOLLOWERS, AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SAYING WE WILL NOT BE DETERRED BY THE ACTIONS OF NEO-NAZIS AND OTHER EXTREMISTS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS WITHIN CONSERVATIVE CIRCLES.

THESE NEO-NAZIS ARE GAINING FUEL FROM THE POLITICS OF WHITE GRIEVANCE.

THEY'RE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

AND THESE DOCTORS HAVE BASICALLY SAID, YES, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR SAFETY BECAUSE VIOLENCE, WE SAW WITH JANUARY 6, HAS BEEN NORMALIZED.

YOU HAVE REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS WHO WILL NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST THESE THINGS.

YOU HAVE NEO-NAZIS IN FLORIDA RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE INCIDENTS, WHERE THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA HAS REFUSED TO CONDEMN NEO-NAZIS.

DECIDED TO CONDEMN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT IS CONDEMNING THE NEO-NAZIS, RATHER THAN TO CONDEMN NEO-NAZIS.

THAT'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

>> O'Connell: IF WE HAD SAID TO EACH OTHER 10 YEARS AGO, IN 2022, THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF ATTENTION ON HEALTH CARE, THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF INTEREST ABOUT IT, WE'RE GOING TO BE PUSHING TO GET PEOPLE A NEW MEDICINE, WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE HAD A MORE OPTIMISTIC VIEWPOINT OF WHAT WOULD BE HAPPENING.

BUT TO THAT POINT, WE HAVE -- COVID HAS UNFORTUNATELY SHOWN US IN REAL STRICT DATA TERMS THE INEQUITIES THAT EXIST IN OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, AND THE CHALLENGES THAT PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NO OTHERWISE, IN TERMS GETTING VACCINATED AND THEIR RESISTANCE TO GET VACCINATED -- AS WE GET THROUGH THIS, DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AMERICANS TO REALLY SEE WHAT THE LAY OF THE LAND IS, HOW THINGS ARE BROKEN, AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL COME OUT OF THIS WITH A MORE OPTIMISTIC PLAN FOR BOTH EQUITY AND FOR OUR MEDICAL COMMUNITY?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, SUE, IF THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO REFUSE TO ACCEPT FACTS, A CHECK OF REALITY, WHO ARE BEING FLOODED WITH DISINFORMATION, YOU WILL WIN OVER SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BASICALLY COMMIT TODDCOMMITTED TO A PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW, ARE NO LONGER PERSUADED BY THIS THING WE CALL FACT.

FACTS BE DAMNED.

IN MEDICINE, THINGS THAT ARE OBSERVABLE, EMPIRICALLY DETERMINED, SO ON AND SO FORTH, SO IN TERMS OF OPTIMISM, IT IS NOT FOR ME TO SAY -- I CAN SAY THAT IT SEEMS PROBLEMATIC THAT WE WILL HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE BASICALLY TRANSITIONING TO THE SIDE, IF YOU WILL, OF OBJECTIVE REALITY, WHEN, IN FACT, THEY'RE INVESTED IN DISINFORMATION.

AND I WOULD SAY, FINALLY, IF YOU WILL, THE COVID SITUATION HAS DIVIDED PEOPLE.

BUT IT IS ACTUALLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIVIDED THEMSELVES BETWEEN THE FACTS -- BETWEEN FACTS AND DISINFORMATION.

>> O'Connell: I WAS STRUCK BY THIS GROUP -- OBVIOUSLY, ANY TIME THERE ARE NEO-NAZIS PROTESTING, I'M STRUCK BY THEM.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE LOOK AT THE PUBLIC HEALTH PLAN TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED, THE GROUP THAT CONTINUES TO BE HARDEST TO REACH, ACCORDING TO MANY SURVEYS, IS WHITE MEN WHO LIVE IN RED STATES WHO ARE LIKELY TO HAVE VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.

AND THIS IS THE GROUP THAT LOOKS LIKE WAS OUT THERE PROTESTING THAT, YOU KNOW, WHITES WEREN'T GETTING HEALTH CARE TREATMENT.

YOU KNOW, THE IRONY AND TRAGEDY OF THAT MESSAGE BY THAT GROUP, WHEN THEY COULD BE PREACHING TO THEIR OTHER NEO-NAZI BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO GET VACCINATED, AND THAT WOULD PROBABLY DO MORE TO HELP THEIR CAUSE THAN THIS, NOT THAT I WANT TO HELP THEM.

BUT MY POINT BEING -- >> YOUR POINT MAKES SENSE.

ALTHOUGH I WOULD SAY, IN TERMS OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF WHO IS ATTRACTED TO THIS, IT IS ACTUALLY ACROSS STATES, BLUE AND RED, AND MANY FOLKS WHO LIVE IN AREAS THAT IN THEIR VIEW ARE BEING CONTESTED, WHERE THEY'RE BEING REPLACED.

IN OTHER WORDS, URBAN AREAS AND BLUE AREAS, THAT'S WHERE YOU FIND SOME OF THE GREATEST GROWTH AMONG NEO-NAZIS AND CONSERVATIVE FORCES TO THE FAR RIGHT.

AND IN TERMS OF, LIKE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL SEE THEMSELVES UNDER SEIZE -- WHERE YOU HAVE TALK SHOW HOSTS -- CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOW HOSTS WHO HAVE DIED, BY SEVERAL DOZEN, I UNDERSTAND, MEGA CHURCH LEADERS, EVANGELICALS, THEY'VE DIED.

THEY HAVEN'T HAD THAT COME TO JESUS MOMENT WHEN IT COMES TO COVID.

THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THAT IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS KILLING THEM.

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH THE OBJECTIVE DEBILITATION -- THE RIGHT IN YOUR FACE TYPE OF PROBLEM IS ACTUALLY GOING TO PERSUADE THESE INDIVIDUALS.

>> O'Connell: ALL RIGHT, PHILLIP MARTIN, I APPRECIATE YOUR WORK COVERING THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC.

AND WE'LL LOOK TO YOU FOR THE LATEST AS WE FOLLOW IT.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> MUCH APPRECIATE IT.

>> O'Connell: AFTER NEARLY A DECADE OF LEADING CNN AS NETWORK PRESIDENT, JEFF ZUCKER ABRUPTLY RESIGNED YESTERDAY.

HE ADMITTED HE'D FAILED TO DISCLOSE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A SENIOR NETWORK EXECUTIVE AT THE COMPANY, WHICH WAS UNCOVERED DURING AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION INTO CHRIS CUOMO'S CNN TENURE.

IT WAS TWO MONTHS AGO THAT ZUCKER FIRED THE PRIMETIME ANCHOR FOR HIS ROLE IN THEN-NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO'S HANDLING OF HIS HARASSMENT SCANDAL.

AND IN A MEMO TO EMPLOYEES YESTERDAY, ZUCKER WROTE THAT AS PART OF THE CUOMO INVESTIGATION, "I WAS ASKED ABOUT A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MY CLOSEST COLLEAGUE.

I ACKNOWLEDGED THE RELATIONSHIP EVOLVED IN RECENT YEARS.

I WAS REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE IT WHEN IT BEGAN, BUT I DIDN'T.

I WAS WRONG."

AND NOW, THE FALLOUT.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE JUSTIN BARAGONA, MEDIA REPORTER WITH THE "DAILY BEAST," AND JOANNA WEISS, EDITOR OF "EXPERIENCE" MAGAZINE.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: YOU KNOW, JUSTIN, I WENT THROUGH MY OTHER JOB TRAINING WHERE I WENT THROUGH A MULTIPLE QUESTION THING, MAKING SURE I DISCLOSE ANY RELATIONSHIPS THAT MIGHT BE IMPROPER TO H.R.

DID ZUCKER NOT NEED TO GO THROUGH THOSE?

WHAT IS THE LATEST?

>> OBVIOUSLY WHAT WE HEARD IS THIS RELATIONSHIP WAS AN OPEN SECRET WITHIN CNN, AS IT WAS.

SO THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY -- OR AT LEAST ZUCKER IS TRYING TO SAY HE DID NOT DISCLOSE IT, HE FORGOT TO DISCLOSE IT.

ALLISON GOLLUST IS SAYING THAT THE RELATIONSHIP CHANGED DURING COVID AND THEY FORGOT TO LET CORPORATE KNOW.

BUT FROM EVERYBODY'S REPORTING, AND EVEN ALL THE WAY BACK TO KATIE COURIC'S BOOK, THEY'VE BEEN TOGETHER FOR A WHILE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOW BOTH DIVORCED.

IT IS A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP, BUT IT IS WITHIN THE WORKPLACE.

YOU CAN SEE FAVORTISM WITHIN, YOU KNOW?

SO, YES, THE IMPROPER NATURE OF IT WITHOUT DISCLOSING IT BECAME A PROBLEM.

ZUCKER WANTED TO BE ABLE TO STEIN FOR A LITTLE BIT LONGER.

THE BOARD SAID, NO, YOU'RE EITHER GOING TO RESIGN OR WE'RE GOING TO FIRE YOU.

YOUR CHOICE.

>> O'Connell: JOANNA, HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

THIS MAKES MY HEAD EXPLODE.

IF I WAS IN CHARGE OF A COMPANY, AND I WAS DOING SOMETHING THAT WAS -- MAYBE I WAS JUST TAKING HOME COMPANY SUPPLIES ON A REGULAR BASIS, AND IT WAS -- YOU DEFINITELY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO DO THAT, THAT WAS A BIG DEAL, AND I WAS INVESTIGATING AN EMPLOYEE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN TAKING HOME COMPANY SUPPLIES WITHOUT PERMISSION, I PROBABLY WOULD MAKE SURE MY HOUSE WAS IN ORDER, ESPECIALLY IF THIS WAS A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP THAT EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT.

THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANYTHING UP TOWARD ABOUT IT, SKEPTIC BETWEEN THEIR MARRIAGES,EXCEPT BETWEEN THEIRMARRIAGES, AND THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS.

>> IN MEDIA AND POLITICS, IT IS THE HYPOCRISY THAT GETS PEOPLE IN TROUBLE IN THE END.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE ACT.

I AGREE THIS WAS AN ACT OF QUESTIONABLE JUDGMENT AT BEST.

ON A SCALE OF TRANSGRESSIONS, THIS WAS NOT SORT OF ROCH ROGER ALES, THAT SAID, EVEN IF IT WAS AN OPEN SECRET, YOU'RE RIGHT.

I THINK IT OFTEN HAS TO DO WITH HUBRIS, AND IT OFTEN HAS TO DO WITH A FEELING THAT YOU'RE SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU'VE GOTTEN AWAY WITH SOMETHING FOR SO LONG, EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT AND IT DOESN'T MATTER.

THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO YOU.

IT HAS BEEN INTERESTING TO READ THE COVERAGE AND READ THAT CERTAINLY THE TOP TALENT AT CNN WAS REALLY SHOCKED BY THIS AND IS STANDING BY ZUCKER AND WAS REALLY UPSET, AND WAS REALLY QUESTIONING JASON CALAR,CALAR -- IF I'M PRONOUNCING THAT RIGHT?

AND IF THAT IS THE REAL STORY OR IS THERE MUCH MORE TO THIS STORY?

>> O'Connell: AND THEY SEEM TO BE PRESENTING IT IN THE LIGHT THAT THIS IS CUOMO'S FAULT BECAUSE CUOMO IS THE ONE THAT ULTIMATELY WAS GETTING IN TROUBLE.

AND PERHAPS IN HIS WORK AT TRYING TO GET A BETTER SETTLEMENT FROM CNN, THIS WAS UNEARTHED.

AND IT NEEDED TO BE UNEARTHED, AND AS YOU SAID, I READ IT INDICATE COEUR'SIN KATIECOURIC'S BOOK AND IT INTERESTED ME.

IS THERE A TRYING TO PAINT THE BAD GUY?

>> IT IS INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT.

BECAUSE IN A D.C. MEETING LAST NIGHT WITH THE TOP STAFFERS AND CALAR, JAKE TAPPER SAID, HOW ARE WE LETTING THE BAD GUY WIN HERE, REFERENCING CHRIS CUOMO.

IT IS A MULTI-PRONGED THING HERE, AMONG AT LEAST THE ON-AIR TALENT, JEFF ZUCKER WAS A BELOVED FIGURE.

HIM GOING IN THIS WAY, IN THIS MANNER, AND SEEMINGLY WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE CHRIS CUOMO PENDING LAWSUIT, AND RIGHT NOW NEGOTIATIONS OVER HIS UNPAID SALARY, THEY'RE LOOKING AT IT AS, YOU KNOW, THIS SEEMS UNFAIR.

WHETHER WE SHOULD SEE THAT AS BEING FAIR OR NOT, THEY ARE SEEING THAT AS BEING AN UNFAIR WAY THAT HE IS BEING LET GO.

>> O'Connell: JOANNA, WE WORKED IN THE MEDIA BUSINESS A LONG TIME.

IT IS NOT SURPRISING TO ME THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WAS ACTING IN A WAY THAT WAS CONTRARY TO WHAT THE RULES AND COMPANY HANDBOOK SAID.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS SURPRISING TO ME, IN A WAY, HOW QUICKLY THINGS ARE CHANGING.

I DON'T THINK IF YOU HAD SAID TO ME FIVE YEARS AGO A CNN TOP EXECUTIVE WOULD BE OUT FOR A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP HE WAS HAVING WITH SOMEONE THAT I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED THAT THAT WAS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO HAPPEN.

>> WELL, THIS IS ALSO -- THIS IS, I THINK, PART OF THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE WITHIN CNN, AND OUTSIDE OF CNN, ARE QUESTIONING THIS.

WAS THIS KIND OF A FIG LEAF -- I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE RIGHT METAPHOR, BUT IF THE LARGER REASON FOR FIRING HIM WERE TENSIONS BETWEEN JEFF ZUCKER AND CALAR.

THEY BY ALL REPORTS DID NOT HAVE THE GREATEST RELATIONSHIP.

THERE IS A LOT OF MOVING AT CNN.

IT IS A REALLY INTENSE TIME TO HAVE A CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP.

CNN IS WEEKS AWAY FROM LAUNCHING THIS STREAMING PLATFORM THAT THEY PUT A LOT OF ENERGY, MONEY, AND KIND OF FUTURE HOPES ON, AND TO KIND OF SHOVE OUT THE TOP LEADER AT THIS MOMENT IS A REALLY INTERESTING AND KIND OF QUESTIONABLE BUSINESS MOVE.

>> O'Connell: JUSTIN, WHERE IS CNN RIGHT NOW?

OBVIOUSLY THE STREAMING SERVICE IS IMPORTANT.

I HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS WATCHING THE MORNING SHOW ON HBO AND SAID THAT SEEMS SO FAR-FETCHED.

AND IT IS ALMOST LIKE A DOCUMENTARY IN MANY WAYS.

AND CNN IS KIND OF PROVING THAT POINT.

THEY HAVE HAD A VERY, VERY ROCKY, HOW LONG, PAST FIVE YEARS?

AND IS THIS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO SET THE SAILS AND GET THINGS ON A MORE, YOU KNOW, PREDICTABLE WAY?

>> I MEAN, RIGHT NOW IT IS VRY UNPREDICTABLE FROM WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO GO.

AS JOANNA WAS SAYING, THEY GETTING READY TO LAUNCH THEIR BIG DIGITAL STREAMING PLATFORM, WHICH RIGHT NOW THERE IS A GLUT OF STREAMING OUT THERE.

AND CURRENTLY CNN HAS SEEN THEIR RATINGS PLUMMET OVER THE PAST YEAR, SO IT IS QUESTIONABLE TO THINK THAT THE STREAMING OPTION OF CNN PROGRAMMING IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DESIRE A LOT.

AT THE SAME TIME, ZUCKER GOING AWAY, LIKE YOU SAID, THERE HAS BEEN A ROCKY PAST FEW YEARS.

BUT THEY, JUST A YEAR OR SO AGO, HAD RATINGS HIGH AND THEN THEY PLUMMETTED POST-TRUMP.

NOW WITHOUT ZUCKER, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF CNN PERSONALITIES THAT ARE KIND OF WORRIED ABOUT WHERE THEY'RE PLACE IS AT THE NETWORK.

WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEW LEADERSHIP?

WHAT KIND OF DIRECTION ARE THEY GOING TO WANT TO GO IN?

HOW DO I LOOK IN THE WHOLE NEW FRAME OF WHAT THE NEW CNN IS GOING TO BE?

ZUCKER WAS THERE FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS, HAD A VERY SPECIFIC VISION IN MIND.

NOW THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT VISION.

AM I GOING TO FIT INTO THAT VISION?

>> O'Connell: JOANNA, WE TALK ABOUT THE RATINGS, AND IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE RATINGS ARE VERY MUCH ASSOCIATED TO THE TRUMP ERA.

PEOPLE WHO MAYBE, ON AN AVERAGE, WOULD NOT TUNE INTO A CNN OR AN MSNBC, WERE TUNING IN BECAUSE THEY WERE LOOKING FOR NEWS AND LOOKING FOR OPINION.

WE'RE ABOUT TO ENTER A MID-TERM ELECTION YEAR -- WE'RE IN A MID-TERM ELECTION YEAR, AND SOON WE'LL START THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN ALL OVER AGAIN.

FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP EMERGING AND BEING OUT MORE AND MORE, AND CERTAINLY ZUCKER GOT A LOT OF CRITICISM FOR HIGHLIGHTING TRUMP DURING HIS CAMPAIGN.

I'M AN EMPLOYEE OF NBC COMCAST, AND THAT'S WHEN THE APPRENTICE WAS.

WHAT DO YOU FORECAST ABOUT HOW THESE CABLE NETWORKS, EXCLUDING FOX, ARE GOING TO BE COVERING THE MID-TERMS AND THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION?

AND DO YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE BANGING THE DRUM IN ORDER TO GET THE RATINGS THAT THEY HAD BEFORE?

>> WELL, TO TAKE A STEP BACK, PART OF THE ISSUE -- AND THERE IS A LOT OF CONTROVERSY AROUND ALL OF THE DECISIONS THAT JEFF ZUCKER AND OTHERS MADE THAT BOOSTED RATINGS DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, EXTENDING FROM TRUMP TO CUOMO.

BUT, REALLY, I THINK IT GOES BACK FURTHER.

HONESTLY, THE ORIGINAL SIN OF ALL OF THESE 24-HOUR CABLE NETWORKS IS THIS IDEA YOU HAVE 24 HOURS TO FILL ON THE CHEAP, WHICH LEADS TO THESE PANEL DISCUSSIONS THAT ARE OF QUESTIONABLE VALUE AND LEADS TO THE NEED FOR ENTERTAINMENT TAKING THE PLACE OF NEWS.

I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY DURING THE 2016 ELECTION CAMPAIGN THAT, YOU KNOW, ANYONE WOULD BE DOING A TALK SHOW, AND DONALD TRUMP WOULD CALL IN.

WELL, WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP ON THE PHONE FROM HIS PLANE.

WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP ON THE PHONE FROM A RESTAURANT.

WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP ON THE PHONE FROM A BOAT.

AND ANY TIME HE WANTED ANY KIND OF NEWS COVERAGE, HE GOT WHAT WAS ESSENTIALLY FREE ADVERTISING BY VIRTUE OF HIM BEING AN ENTERTAINING FIGURE.

CNN WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE TO DO THAT, BUT CNN WAS A PRIME PLATFORM FOR DONALD TRUMP TO GROW HIS POLITICAL BRAND.

THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTION NOW ABOUT WHAT USE THESE PANELS -- HOW DO THESE NETWORKS THAT HAVE BECOME EVEN MORE PARTISAN AND MORE COMMITTED TO BEING PRO-TRUMP OR ANTI-TRUMP, DEPENDING ON THE NETWORK, HOW DO THEY HANDLE POLITICS THAT IS FAIR AND EQUITABLE WHEN THEY HAVE DONE THE OPPOSITE.

>> O'Connell: THE ME-TOO MOVEMENT WAS GRIM, AND MANY PEOPLE WERE OUSTED IN MEDIA, BUT BECAUSE OF THE CONSENTUAL NATURE OF THIS, I THINK THERE IS SOMEWHAT OF A GLEE IN THE INDUSTRY ABOUT BEING ABLE TO COVER SOMETHING THAT IS A LITTLE GOSSIPPY,GOSSIPY, BUT THESE ARE PEOPLE'S REELS LIVES.

BUT I AM SENSING THERE IS AN OLD TABLOID EXCITEMENT ABOUT COVERING ZUCKER'S OUTING.

>> DEFINITELY.

PART OF IT IS THEY SEE IT AS JUST DESSERTS FOR JEFF ZUCKER, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT-WING MEDIA.

IT IS A WAY TO REALLY JUST HAMMER AWAY AT THEM.

SAYING OH, THEY PUT THEMSELVES UP ON THIS PEDESTAL, BUT LOOK WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE?

THIS WAS ALL UNDER THE RUG THE WHOLE TIME, BUT AS WE DISCUSSED, IT WAS A CONSENTUAL RELATIONSHIP, BUT IT WAS NOT DISCLOSED.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DAILY NEWS AND "THE NEW YORK POST" HEADLINES, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY WRITE THEMSELVES.

SO -- AND FOX NEWS RAN -- THEY MENTIONED JEFF ZUCKER 170 TIMES ON THEIR AIR YESTERDAY AFTER THIS OCCURRED.

THEY HAVEN'T SLOWED IT DOWN, EITHER.

>> O'Connell: I'M NOT SURE HE IS THE RATINGS MEAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR OVER THERE.

BUT I APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOU FOR THIS INTELLIGENT PANEL DISCUSSION.

THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS.

ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL TAKE UP SOME NEW CANDIDATES ACROSS THE STATE, A CALL TO MAKE THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE MORE TRANSPARENT, AND A PUSH TO CONSIDER REPARATIONS IN BOSTON.

PLUS, MAURA HEALEY'S STRATEGY BEGS THE QUESTION: IS THERE ROOM FOR MODERATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org