>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> TERROR IN THE NIGHT AS RUSSIA STRIKES UKRAINE CITIES.

I ASK A FORMER NATO DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL IF THERE IS ANY HOPE FOR A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION.

AND.

> >> AS YOU KNOW IT IS NOT A CRIME TO PARTY WITH MR.

EPSTEIN.

>> Reporter: WITH 3 MILLION DOCUMENTS RELEASED ABOUT EPSTEIN, WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT HIS INTERACTIONS WITH THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE?

> >> IT IS JUST MORE COMPLICATED THAN EITHER NOBLE VIGILANTE OR VICIOUS VICTIMS.

>> RACE, FEAR, AND THE LEGACY OF SUBWAY SHOOTER BERNIE GOETZ.

MICHELLE MARTIN TALKS TO ELLIOT WILLIAMS.

AUTHOR OF "FIVE BULLETS. "

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

>> COMMITTED TO BRIDGES CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WE BEGIN IN UKRAINE WHERE A MAJOR ONSLAUGHT OF RUSSIAN MISSILES AND DRONES CUT POWER.

RUSSIA ATTACKING DESPITE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CLAIM THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN AGREED TO A WEEK LONG PAUSE IN ATTACKS.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY ACCUSES RUSSIA OF CHOOSING TERROR AND ESCALATION OVER DIPLOMACY.

>> THE RUSSIANS HAVE ONCE AGAIN DISREGARDED THE EFFORTS OF THE AMERICAN SIDE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES REQUEST THEY REFRAIN FROM ATTACKING ENERGY FACILITIES AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURES.

THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT SAID THEY SHOULD REFRAIN FROM ATTACKS FOR A WEEK.

THIS WAS A VERY IMPORTANT AND SIGNIFICANT DECISION.

IN FACT, IT BEGAN ON FRIDAY NIGHT.

AND TONIGHT, IN OUR OPINION, THE RUSSIANS BROKE THEIR PROMISE.

>> THE LAST TRILATERAL PEACE TALKS WITH RUSSIA, UKRAINE, AND THE UNITED STATES ARE SET TO CONTINUE IN ABU DHABI THIS WEEK.

WHILE THE WORLD FOCUSES ON DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS THERE, NEW START EXPIRES THIS RUSSIA.

SO CAN DIPLOMACY PREVAIL ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND UKRAINE?

ROSE SCOTT MILLER WAS AMERICA'S CHIEF NEGOTIATOR ON NEW START.

SHE COMES TO US FROM CAPITOL HILL WHERE SHE WAS BRIEFING U. S. SENATORS ON THE AGREEMENT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ROSE, FOR JOINING US AND WE WILL GET TO THAT AGREEMENT EXPIRING IN JUST A MOMENT BUT I WANT TO GET TO THE NEWS OF THE DAY.

RUSSIA RESUMING ITS STRIKES ON UKRAINE'S ENERGY FACILITIES IN THE DEAD OF WINTER AS PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN PROMISED HIM HE WOULD AT LEAST HOLD OFF A WEEK ON DOING AS MUCH.

RUSSIA IS SAYING THEY KEPT THEIR COMMITMENT, PERHAPS THERE IS SOME CONFUSION ABOUT THE ACTUAL TERM IN THE DATES THEY AGREED TO.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT RUSSIA'S COMMITMENT TO KEEPING ANY SORT OF AGREEMENTS AS THEY ARE ALSO NOW NEGOTIATING SOME SORT OF END, HOPEFULLY, FOR THIS WAR?

>> IT DOES SEEM VERY, VERY CYNICAL FROM WHAT I CAN TELL.

BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS SOME DIFFERENCE OF OPINION AS TO HOW LONG THIS CEASE FIRE SHOULD GO ON.

BUT HONESTLY, TO START UP JUST AS THESE NEGOTIATIONS IN ABU DHABI ARE BEGINNING IT IS A WEIRD WAY TO CONVEY WHAT DIRECTION OF TRAVEL YOU ARE ON.

IT SEEMS THE RUSSIANS ARE STILL ON THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL NOT WANTING TO GET TO ANY AGREEMENT.

ALSO, I THINK THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF INTERACTION BETWEEN PUTIN AND ZELENSKYY.

ZELENSKYY HAD A POSITIVE WORD SAYS THIS CEASE FIRE HAD LENT MOMENTUM TO THE TALKS COMING UP IN ABU DHABI.

WHEN VLADIMIR PUTIN HEARS ANYTHING GOOD FROM ZELENSKYY, HE WANTS TO DO HIS BEST TO CONTRADICT IT.

SO I THINK IN THIS CASE, THERE COULD BE A LITTLE ELEMENT OF THAT DYNAMIC AS WELL.

>> WHAT HOPES ARE WE TO HAVE GOING INTO THESE TRILATERAL TALKS IN ABU DHABI?

>> IT SEEMS THAT THERE IS SOME PROGRESS BEING MADE.

JUST THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TRILATERAL TALKS GOING ON WITH UKRAINIANS AND RUSSIANS PARTICIPATING IN ALONG WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE FACILITATION OF THE GOVERNMENT IN ABU DHABI.

THAT IS I THINK AN IMPORTANT STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

WE SEEM TO BE INCHING ALONG BUT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE CYNICAL BEHAVIOR OF THE KREMLIN.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID TALKS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE ARE GOING QUOTE VERY WELL BUT WE ARE ALSO SEEING A SHIFT IN ATTACKS FROM RUSSIA'S STANDPOINT ON TRANSPORT FOR BUSES, RAILWAYS, CIVILIAN ROUTES.

IS THIS A TACTUAL SHIFT OR DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS RUSSIA JUST AGAIN TRYING TO SHOW ITS MIGHT AND INFLICT AS MUCH PAIN AS IT CAN ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND CIVILIANS?

>> IT IS TRAGIC THAT UKRAINE DEPENDS ON COAL MINING AND 12 MINERS MINERS WERE KILLED ON A BUS.

IT HAS BEEN A DIFFICULT PERIOD.

I THINK THERE WAS A SLIGHT ELEMENT OF SHIFT THERE TO FULFILL PUTIN'S PROMISE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP NOT TO ATTACK ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE SO THEY STARTED GOING AFTER TRANSPORT LINKS INSTEAD.

WITH THE CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THEY ARE KEEPING UP THE PRESSURE.

ALSO AGAIN THE MESSAGE THEY MAY NOT BE WOMAN THE SAME ROUTE TO A RAPID CONCLUSION TO THIS WAR.

THEY ARE CONVEYING ONCE AGAIN, THEY ARE NOT READY TO GIVE UP ON THEIR KEY DEMANDS TO GIVE UP TOTAL CONTROL OF THE DONBASS.

>> THERE DOES SEEM TO BE PROGRESS MADE WITH EUROPEANS ON WHAT ANY SORT OF GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE WOULD LOOK LIKE WITH AN AGREED UPON CEASE FIRE.

IF ONE DOES COME TO FRUITION.

ACCORDING TO NEW REPORTING, UKRAINE, EUROPE, AND THE U. S. HAVE DISCUSSED A TIERED ENFORCEMENT PLAN THAT WOULD BE WARNINGS WITHIN 24 HOURS IF RUSSIA BREAKS THE CEASE FIRE AND ATTACKS UKRAINE.

EUROPEAN MILITARY INVOLVEMENT BETWEEN 72 HOURS AND POTENTIALLY THE U. S. BACKING IF RUSSIA VIOLATES THE CEASE FIRE FOR A PROLONGED PERIOD AFTER 72 HOURS.

HOW SERIOUS DO YOU THINK THIS PLAN IS AND CAN THE EUROPEANS, CAN UKRAINE ESPECIALLY RELY ON THE UNITED STATES STEPPING IN AFTER THREE DAYS?

>> I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS COMMITTED UP TO THIS POINT AND IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS NOT EARLY ON THAT ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT.

BUT THEY HAVE COMMITTED TO U. S. INVOLVEMENT IN A STEP BY STEP APPROACH AND I THINK THAT IS VERY VALUABLE.

IF YOU JUXTAPOSE THIS PLAN AGAINST WHAT WAS IN EXISTENCE DURING THE EARLY PERIOD AFTER 2014, WHEN THERE WERE ATTEMPTS AT A CEASE FIRE AND RESOLUTION UNDER THE SO-CALLED MINSK PROCESS, THERE WAS NOWHERE NEAR THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL AND WITH THE RUSSIANS, BELIEVE ME, I UNDERSTAND, EVERYTHING HAS TO BE NAILED DOWN IN DETAIL.

THE PROCEDURES, THE ROUTINES.

SO TO MY MIND THIS HAS SOME PROMISE TO IT BECAUSE IT DOES CONTAIN THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL ABOUT WHO WILL DO WHAT WHEN.

>> AND WE STILL KNOW THEY WILL VIOLATE TERMS THAT THEY AGREED TO THEMSELVES.

AND RUSSIA FROM DAY ONE OF THIS WAR AS WE ARE APPROACHING TRAGICALLY FOUR YEAR MARK OF THE LARGER SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE HAS SAID THAT THERE WILL BE NO FOREIGN TROOPS AT ALL IN UKRAINE ALLOWED AND THAT NOW I GUESS GOES FOR DURING CEASE FIRE.

AS WELL.

SO, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK IS THIS RUSSIA MOVING THE GOAL POST AND HOW CONCERNED SHOULD THE EUROPEANS, SHOULD AMERICA BE ABOUT THIS DEMAND FROM RUSSIA?

>> THOSE ARE THE TWO BIG RUSSIAN RED LINES.

THEY WANT TO TAKE OVER ALL THE TERRITORY, THE DONBASS AND ARE REJECTING THE NOTION NATO COUNTRIES INCLUDEING THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE PARTICIPATING AND PROVIDING SECURITY GUARANTEES.

BUT FOR THE UKRAINIANS THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY FOR A FAIR OUTCOME IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

THEY HAVE TO SEE SECURITY GUARANTEES FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES SO I THINK THAT WILL BE THE BIGGEST SET OF STICKING POINTS TRYING TO COME TO A RESOLUTION AND WE WILL SEE WHERE IT ENDS UP.

BUT I HAVE BEEN HEARTENED THAT NATO, UKRAINE SEEM TO BE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH WITH REGARD TO GETTING TO YES OVER THE SECURITY GUARANTEES.

NOW, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CONCERNING STORIES ABOUT THERE THAT THE U. S. WANTS THE UKRAINIANS TO GIVE UP ON THE TERRITORIAL ISSUE.

IN ORDER TO GET THE SECURITY GUARANTEES.

THERE HAVE BEEN DENIALS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

I CAN'T TELL EXACTLY WHERE THAT STANDS BUT THAT IS SOMETHING TO WATCH AS WELL.

>> DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, I KNOW HE SAID HE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY BOUND.

HE CAN'T JUST GIVE UP TERRITORY WITHOUT A VOTE AND A REFERENDUM FROM HIS CONSTITUENTS BUT THAT IS ULTIMATELY THE DEMAND OF THE UNITED STATES, WHAT CHOICE IS HE LEFT WITH?

>> THE CHOICE MIGHT JUST BE TO FIGHT ON AND FIGHT ON WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE EUROPEANS.

THAT IS THE KIND OF MESSAGE WE HAVE BEEN SEEING EMERGING THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE NOT JUST GOING TO GIVE UP ON THIS AND CERTAINLY PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN VERY, VERY FIRM IN THIS REGARD SO I THINK IT WILL COME DOWN TO BEING ABLE TO BALANCE OUT THE RUSSIAN DEMAND WITH REGARD TO THE SECURITY GUARANTEES WITH A GREAT FIRMNESS FROM ALL THE NATO ALLIES AND FROM WASHINGTON ITSELF.

THE PROBLEM FROM EARLY ON IS WASHINGTON SEEM TO HAVE A TENDENCY TO WANT TO MUSCLE KYIV FROM TIME TO TIME.

IN THIS CASE, AND THE ROLE OF THE NATO ALLIANCE, I'M GLAD HE WAS IN KYIV THE LAST 24 HOURS BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE IN WORKING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE WORKED WITH HIM ON THE GREENLAND QUESTION.

SO I HOPE THIS CONTRIBUTES TO GETTING TO YES.

>> THE EXPIRATION OF NEW START IN TWO DAYS.

HOW HISTORICALLY DANGEROUS IN YOUR VIEW IS THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT WITH AS WE NOTED, WHERE THEY WILL BE NEGOTIATEING WITH THE COUNTRY THAT ILLEGALLY INVADED ITS NEIGHBOR FOUR YEARS?

>> WELL, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY PERIODS SINCE THE 1970s WHEN WE GOT THE FIRST STRATEGIC ARMS AGREEMENT.

WHEN WE HAVE NOT HAD LEGALLY BINDING TREATMENTS IN PLACE.

THE SECOND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE RATIFIED BY THE SENATE.

BUT PRESIDENT CARTER PULLED IT BACK SO WE WENT THROUGH A NUMBER OF YEARS WHERE WE JUST HAD A KIND OF HANDSHAKE AGREEMENT NOT TO MOVE BEYOND THE LIMITS OF THE SECOND SALT AGREEMENT AND THAT IS THE SITUATION WE ARE IN NOW.

IT DOES CONCERN ME.

WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO THE TABLE ANY TIME SOON.

THE CHINESE ARE ALSO MODERNIZING THEIR NUCLEAR FORCES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PROMISED TO TAKE TO BOTH XI JINPING AND VLADIMIR PUTIN ABOUT NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT.

SO WE NEED TO URGENTLY GET TO THE TABLE WITH BOTH OF THOSE COUNTRIES.

IF WE HAVE SO MANY ISSUES ON THE AGENDA AND PARTICULARLY FINDING PEACE IN UKRAINE, IT MIGHT SEEM DIFFICULT TO HAVE ENOUGH ATTENTION SPAN TO DEAL WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> YOU MENTIONED CHINA.

I BELIEVE THEIR SPOCK PILES AS OF 2024 WAS IN ABOUT THE 600 RANGE.

IT IS PROJECTED TO GO BY A THOUSAND IN 2030.

SO AS VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS OFFERED TO EXTEND START TWO, TRUMP HAS CALLED THIS AD GOOD IDEA BUT WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE CHINA IN THE MIX AS WELL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE REQUEST THAT CHINA BE PART OF NEGOTIATIONS AND HOW REALISTIC IS THAT?

>> MY VIEW IS IT IS REALISTIC TO TALK TO THE CHINESE ABOUT WHAT THEIR OBJECTIVES AND INTENTIONS ARE.

THEY ARE MODERNIZING AND BUILDING UP RAPIDLY AND OUR DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE SAID THEY WOULD BE AT 1500 WARHEADS BY 2035.

AND SO, I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO GET TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT THEIR OBJECTIVES BUT WE AND THE RUSSIANS STILL HAVE SO MANY MORE THAN THE CHINESE.

WE HAVE 4,000 TOTAL.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE 4,000 TOTAL APPROXIMATELY.

THE CHINESE HAVE 600.

YES, THEY ARE BUILDING UP.

BUT WE HAVE TIME TO WORK THIS PROBLEM.

WE DON'T NEED TO PANIC.

BUT IT IS URGENT TO BEGIN TALKS WITH THE CHINESE ABOUT THEIR OBJECTIVIVES.

WITH THE RUSSIANS MY VIEW IS WE CAN CONTINUE TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT LIMITING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

IT IS A DIFFERENT PROCESS.

THAT IS WHY I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE TWO IN PARALLEL AND THE PRESIDENT CAN HAVE TWO GREAT VICTORIES IN HIS NEGOTIATING PROCESS.

>> YOU KNOW THE PRESIDENT WELL.

HE WOULD LIKE TO CLAIM ANOTHER VICTORY HERE.

YOU SAY THAT WITH A SMILE ON YOUR FACE.

BUT HOW HOLLOW IS THIS PROSPECT WITHOUT INSPECTION AND DATA EXTENSIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA?

WE KNOW THEY WERE FROZEN DURING COVID AND THEN AFTER THE FULL SCALE VAGUES OF UKRAINE?

>> BOTH SIDES AGREED DURING COVID THEY DIDN'T WANT TO ENDANGER THEIR INSPECTIONS AND THEN VLADIMIR PUTIN PULLED THE PLUG ON ALL FURTHER INSPECTIONS IN FEBRUARY OF 2023 AFTER HE INVADED UKRAINE.

HE LINKED IT UP SAYING THE UKRAINIAN ASSISTANCE PROVIDED MEANS HE COULDN'T.

SO NOW, WE HAVE AT A POINT I THINK WHERE IT SEEMS LIKE PUTIN IS READY TO START TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR LIMITS AGAIN.

AND NUCLEAR STABILITY.

AND IT IS POSSIBLE I THINK FOR THE PRESIDENT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

BUT LET ME STRESS, IT WILL HAVE TO BE ANY NEW TREATY WITH THE RUSSIANS WILL HAVE TO INVOLVE VERY EXTENSIVE AND INTENSIVE ON SITE INSPECTION INCLUDING A WARHEAD FACILITIES.

SO THESE ARE GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO NEGOTIATE.

WE HAVE GOOD EXPERIENCE WITH ON SITE NEGOTIATION MANY YEARS BUT IT WILL TAKE NEW TECHNICAL WORK TO MONITOR NUCLEAR WARHEADS.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IT WAS LAST YEAR THE PRESIDENT RAISED EYEBROWS WHEN HE ORDERED THE PENTAGON TO RESTART NUCLEAR TESTING ON AN EQUAL BASIS WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA.

UNCLEAR WHETHER THESE WERE NUCLEAR CAPABLE DEVICES HE WAS TALKING ABOUT OR NOT.

BUT I REMEMBER THAT MAKING HEADLINES AS WELL.

ROSE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, TO ANOTHER DIPLOMATIC DEVELOPMENT.

IRAN HAS PROVISIONALLY AGREED TO RESUME NUCLEAR TALKS WITH THE UNITED STATES AS PRESIDENT TRUMP SENT AN ARMADA TO THE REGION THREATENING TO STRIKE IRAN IF IT FAILED TO NEGOTIATE A DEAL.

TRUMP ALSO THREATENED MILITARY ACTION IN RESPONSE TO THE REGIME'S DEADLY CRACKDOWN ON DEMONSTRATIONS.

WE SPOKE DO A DOCTOR INSIDE IRAN WHO HELPED COORDINATE MEDICS TO TREAT PROTESTERS AND NOW HE FEARS ARREST HIMSELF.

HERE IS HER REPORT.

AND PLEASE BE ADVISED, SOME OF THE IMAGES ARE DISTURBING.

>> Reporter: IT WAS A NIGHT OF HORROR.

THE GUNFIRE, CHAOS, AND FEAR CAPTURED IN THIS VIDEO.

A SCENE THAT WAS REPLICATED ACROSS IRAN.

MANY OF THOSE WHO BARELY ESCAPED THE REGIME'S ONSLAUGHT WERE STILL ON THE RUN.

WITH SECURITY FORCES HUNTING DOWN THE INJURED AND THOSE WHO AID THEM.

>> WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY THE 8th AND 9th, THE SCENES AT THE HOSPITALS WERE LIKE THOSE END OF THE WORLD HOLLYWOOD MOVIES.

>> Reporter: THIS DOCTOR WE ARE NOT IDENTIFYING FOR HIS SAFETY IS PART OF AN UNDERGROUND NETWORK OF MEDICS TREATING INJURED PROTESTERS INSIDE IRAN.

>> GOVERNMENT HOSPITALS WERE CONTROLLED BY SECURITY FORCES.

IF INJURED PEOPLE WENT THERE AND WERE IDENTIFIED AS PROTESTERS, STAFF ON DUTY HAD TO REPORT THEM.

AND THEY WOULD BE ARRESTED.

>> Reporter: NEVER HAVE THE WOUNDED NEEDED THEIR DOCTORS MORE THAN THEY DO RIGHT NOW.

WITH ACTIVISTS REPORTING MORE THAN 11,000 INJURED IN THE MOST VIOLENT REGIME CRACKDOWN IN THE HISTORY OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

WITH THE WIDESPREAD USE OF LIVE AMMUNITION AND MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS.

IT IS ALSO EXTREMELY DANGEROUS BE A DOCTOR IN IRAN RIGHT NOW.

>> THE DOCTORS WHO DIDN'T COOPERATE WERE DETAINED.

OR THE NEXT DAY, SECURITY OFFICERS WOULD SUMMON THEM OR THEY WERE THROWN OUT.

>> Reporter: IMAGES LIKE THIS HAVE EMERGED SHOWING INJURED PROTESTERS TOO SCARED TO GO TO HOSPITALS, BEING TREATED IN SECRET.

SOME SO DESPERATE, HAVE ALSO BEEN REACHING OUT TO IRANIAN DOCTORS ABROAD FOR HELP.

HOSPITALS ARE NO SANCTUARY IN THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

SECURITY FORCES HAVE RAIDED PLACES LIKE THIS ONE IN THE CITY OF ILAM, THAT WAS BEFORE THE MOST VICIOUS AND BLOODY CLAMPDOWN ON THE PROTESTST BEGAN JANUARY THE 8th.

SINCE THEN, THE DOCTOR AND OTHERS SAY IT WAS THE FEARED REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS WHO TOOK CONTROL OF HOSPITALS SEARCHED FOR INJURED PROTESTERS.

REPORTS OF SECURITY FORCES DETAINING PROTESTERS FROM HOSPITALS ARE WIDESPREAD.

THE U. N. HUMAN RIGHTS HAVE RAISED CONCERNED ABOUT THE ARRESTS OF DOCTORS.

>> SPEAKING WITH US COULD MEAN PRISON FOR YOU OR EVEN WORSE.

WHY DID YOU AGREE TO SPEAK WITH US?

>> I HAVE LOCKED THE DOOR WITH FIVE DIFFERENT LOCKS.

I EXPECT THAT AT ANY MOMENT, AS I GIVE THIS INTERVIEW, THEY COULD BREAK IN AND ARREST ME.

I HAVE CHOSEN TO PUT MY OWN SAFETY SECOND AND SHARING INFORMATION ABOUT THE INJURED AND THE WAR CRIMES THAT HAVE OCCURRED MY FIRST PRIORITY.

>> THE RISKS HE IS TAKING HE SAID FIGHTING BACK TEARS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE YOUNG PROTESTERS WHO PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE.

>> I PROMISED MYSELF TO BE A VOICE FOR THE INJURED AND THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED.

I PROMISE TO MAKE THOSE VOICES HEARD BY THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: VOICES LIKE THAT OF 16-YEAR-OLD ARBIN'S FAMILY.

HE WAS SHOT IN THE HEAD.

THEY KILLED HIM, THIS RELATIVE CRIES, AS THEY TRY TO SPEAK OUT AT THE HOSPITAL, THEY ARE SILENCED.

THESE ARE THE VOICES THE REGIME DOESN'T WANT THE WORLD TO HEAR.

>> AND VOICES IT IS SO IMPORTANT THE WORLD ACTUALLY DOES GET A CHANCE TO HEAR.

OUR THANKS TO THAT IMPORTANT REPORT.

> >> UP NEXT, WE TAKE A DEEP DIVE INTO THE EPSTEIN DOCUMENT DUMP.

MORE THAN 3 MILLION PAGES ALONG WITH VIDEOS, PHOTOS, AND EMAILS OF THE RICH, FAMOUS, AND POWERFUL.

BUT WHILE THIS VAST RECORD CASTS NEW SHADOWS OVER THE REPUTATION OF POWERFUL ELITES, WHAT DOES IT ALL ADD UP TO AND WILL THERE EVER BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR EPSTEIN'S VICTIMS?

JULIE K. BROWN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW, WE WOULDN'T BE HERE GOING THROUGH THIS RECKONING AS A COUNTRY, AND, LEARNING ABOUT THESE SURVIVORS, AND SEEING THAT THE SCOPE THAT THIS HAS GLOBALLY WITHOUT ALL OF YOUR IMPORTANT REPORTING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOU HAVE DONE AND CONTINUE TO DO.

AND I KNOW YOU CONTINUE TO WORK BECAUSE YOU SPENT THIS WEEKEND GOING PAGE BY PAGE OF ALL OF THESE NEWLY PUBLISHED DOCUMENTS AND RELEASED DOCUMENTS.

AND IT IS YEARS AFTER YOUR BOOK WAS PUBLISHED.

THEY APPEAR TO IMPLICATE MORE POLITICIANS, EVEN MORE ELITE.

EVEN MORE POWERFUL NAMES.

AFTER READING ALL OF THIS, EVERYTHING YOU HAVE ALREADY DISCOVERED IN YOUR REPORTING, DOES ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU AT THIS POINT?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AND I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT REALLY WE WOULDN'T BE HERE WITHOUT THE VICTIMS BECAUSE WHAT MADE MY WORK SO POWERFUL WAS THAT AND THAT'S WHAT'S CONTINUING TO PUSH THIS INTO THE PUBLIC, INTO A NEW RECKONING FOR WHAT THIS STORY IS ABOUT.

I DO THINK IT WAS THE VICTIMS THAT ARE TO BE CREDITED FOR THIS STORY STILL HAVING, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF REACH THAT IT DOES.

NOTHING IS SURPRISING ME.

I EXPECTED THAT IT WOULD BE CHAOTIC AND I EXPECTED IT WOULD BE ESPECIALLY VOLUMINOUS TO THE POINT WHERE IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE ANYTHING.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING, THOUGH, IS CONFIRMATION THAT THIS WAS MORE THAN JUST JEFFREY EPSTEIN AND MAXWELL DOING SEX TRAFFICKING JUST BETWEEN THEMSELVES.

THIS INVOLVED OTHER PEOPLE AND ALSO WHAT IS NOT TALKED ABOUT, IT INVOLVED A LOT OF GLOBAL MONEY LAUNDERING.

SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A HUGE CRIME NETWORK THAT INVOLVES A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT WE WOULDN'T BE HERE WITHOUT THE BRAVERY SO MANY YEARS LATER FROM THESE SURVIVORS AND EVEN AS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAD PLEDGED THAT THEY WOULD DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PROTECT THEM, REDACT THEIR PHOTOS.

THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

IN FACT, A MANHATTAN FEDERAL JUDGE WILL BE HOLDING A HEARING TO CONSIDER SHUTTING DOWN THE DOJ WEBSITE AFTER THE VICTIM'S NAMES WERE IMPROPERLY DISCLOSED.

I WOULD LIKE YOU FOR TO LISTEN AND OUR AUDIENCE TO LISTEN TO HOW ONE SURVIVOR TOLD CNN SHE BELIEVES THESE DISCLOSURES WERE INTENTIONAL.

>> IT HAS BEEN HARD BREAKING.

I HAVE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH MY SURVIVOR SISTERS ON THE PHONE WITH THEM.

THEY ARE DEVASTATED AND HEARTBROKEN.

PERSONAL INFORMATION HAS BEEN LEAKED.

YET THE MEN AND SOME OF THE DEFINING EVIDENCE HAS STILL BEEN REDACTED SO AT THIS POINT, WE ARE FEELING THIS IS EXTREMELY INTENTIONAL AND VERY HARMFUL AND THIS IS NOT WHAT WE MEANT WHEN WE SAID WE WANTED TRANSPARENCY.

>> AND APOLOGIES, HER NAME IS HAILEY ROBSON.

LAWYERS FOR SURVIVORS SAY THAT THE FAILURE TO REDACT THESE NAMES HAVE TURNED THEIR LIVES UPSIDE DOWN.

YOU HEARD FROM HAILEY.

SHE BELIEVES THIS IS INTENTIONAL.

THE DOJ HAS RESPONDED BY SAYING IT IS NOT INTENTIONAL.

THEY ARE AWARE.

THEY APOLOGIZE FOR THIS.

IT IS HUMAN ERROR THAT CAUSED THIS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

DO YOU THINK THIS WAS INTENTIONAL OR RECKLESS INCOMPETENCE?

>> IT IS HARD TO KNOW, BECAUSE THEY CERTAINLY HAD ENOUGH TIME TO REALLY COMB THROUGH THESE, THEY KNEW SINCE TRUMP WAS ELECTED THAT THIS WAS HIS CAMPAIGN MOTTO THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE TRANSPARENT AND RELEASE THESE FILES SO THEY HAVE KNOWN FOR ALMOST A YEAR NOW THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC WAS DEMANDING AND THE VICTIMS WANTED SO THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME.

WE HAD HEARD REPORTS THEY WERE GOING THROUGH THEM, YOU KNOW, EVEN OVER THE SUMMER.

SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR EXCUSE IS.

AND ALSO, BY THE WAY, THESE VICTIMS, THE WHOLE REASON WHY I TOOK UP THIS STORY TO BEGIN WITH WAS THE WAY THAT THEY TREATED THESE VICTIMS WAY BACK IN 2005 AND 2006 AND SEVEN WHEN THEY KNEW EPSTEIN WAS COMMITTING THESE CRIMES, AUTHORITIES, THE FBI, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, ALL KNEW HE WAS DOING THIS.

THEY TREATED THE VICTIMS HORRIBLY.

AND THEN, THEY WONDERED WHY SOME OF THE VICTIMS DIDN'T WANT TO COOPERATE.

I MEAN, IT WAS SO HORRIBLE THE WAY THEY WERE TREATED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING SO COULD YOU IMAGINE WHAT KIND OF TRAUMA THEY ARE NOW GOING THROUGH TWO DECADES, ALMOST TWO DECADES LATER FOR SOME OF THEM.

IT IS JUST INEXCUSABLE.

>> TO HEAR FROM THESE VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS, AND AS WE ARE SHOWING, THEY WERE SPEAKING THERE BEFORE CAMERAS BEFORE, SPEAKING WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

OF CONGRESS THERE WAS IN NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR, YOU SEE HOW YOUNG THEY WERE AT THE TIME.

THEY ARE STILL YOUNG.

THEY WERE GIRLS AT THE TIME.

NOT EVEN SOME OF THEM IN THEIR UPPER TEAMS.

THERE IS A QUESTION WHY JEFFREY EPSTEIN WAS ABLE TO WIELD SO MUCH POWER.

FRIENDSHIPS ACROSS PARTY LINES FROM THE RICH AND POWERFUL.

INTERNATIONAL POLITICIANS AS WELL.

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE WERE DRAWN SEPARATE FROM THE SEXUAL ABUSE?

I'M JUST SAYING THE FRIENDSHIPS HE GENERATED AND MAINTAINED FOR SO MANY YEARS DESPITE THE CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

>> MONEY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY.

GREED.

IT REALLY WAS, INCLUDING TO SOME DEGREE, THE CRIMES THAT HE COMMITTED AGAINST CHILDREN AND YOUNG WOMEN, HE WAS USING THEM AS CURRENCY.

HE WAS USING THEM TO SNARE OR TO SOMEHOW CONNECT WITH PEOPLE HE WANT TODAY DO BUSINESS WITH.

AND THESE PEOPLE JUST ATE IT UP.

THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND OR IGNORED OR WERE IGNORANT OF THE RAMIFICATIONS.

BUT THIS INVOLVED A LOT OF MONEY LAUNDERING, A LOT OF POWER THAT PEOPLE WANTED TO GAIN CONNECTIONS.

I MEAN, HE WAS A MAESTRO OF HELPING PEOPLE GAIN CONNECTION TO MAKE MONEY.

WHETHER IT WAS NEW CLIENTS OR WHOLE COUNTRIES THEY WANTED TO COURT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.

THIS IS A GLOBAL NETWORK HE WAS TRYING TO FORM HERE AND IT REALLY WAS, IS, ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.

EVEN TODAY.

THE IDEA THAT TODD BLANCH SAID THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE, THAT IS RIDICULOUS, WE KNOW HE WAS LAUNDERING MONEY AND THERE WERE PEOPLE INVOLVED SO AT THE VERY LEAST THIS SHOULD BE A FINANCIAL CRIME STORE.

>> YOU SAID THE FBI STOPPED DIGGING ONCE THEY HAD ENOUGH INFORMATION RELATE TODAY EPSTEIN ALONE AND NO ONE ELSE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY BIG PEOPLE INVOLVED.

IF YOU STEP ON ONE OF THESE PEOPLE, YOU RISK, ESPECIALLY IN GOVERNMENT, HIGH END GOVERNMENT LEVEL POSITION, IT IS THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED WITH ALEX ACOSTA WITH THE ORIGINAL PLEA DEAL.

EPSTEIN HIRED ALL THESE REALLY HIGH POWERED LAWYERS WHO HAD INFLUENCE IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO GET THEM MAD AT HIM.

HE WANTED TO RISE IN HIS CAREER, AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THIS IS HAPPENING JUST ON A LARGER LEVEL.

THEY COULD HURT PEOPLE'S CAREER OR MAKE LIVES MISERABLE OR MAKE A LOT OF MONEY IF YOU GO ALONG WITH US.

IT IS REALLY ABOUT MONEY.

SENATOR RON WIDEN IN OREGON HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING AND HITTING A LOT OF ROADBLOCKS WITH THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT.

THIS IS ABOUT MONEY.

AND OUR GOVERNMENT IS STILL HIDING A LOT ABOUT THIS.

>> YOU MENTIONED ALEX ACOSTA, THE LAWYER WHO WAS PROSECUTING AND WAS ACCUSED OF BEING OVERLY LENIENT IN THE PROSECUTION OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN AND WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST LABOR SECRETARY BEFORE HE STEPPED DOWN FOLLOWING THE FALL-OUT FROM THIS SPECIFIC STORY.

AND HERE WE ARE SO MANY YEARS LATER, ON THE WEEK WE ARE NOW BILL AND HILLARY CLINTON HAVE AGREED TO TESTIFY BEFORE CONGRESS IN THEIR INVESTIGATION OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

DO YOU THINK ANYTHING MEANINGFUL IF THEY AGREE TO THE TERMS?

THEY ARE JUST, THE REPUBLICAN HERE WHO IS CHAIRING THE OVERSIGHT IS SUGGESTING THAT HE IS NOT ACCEPTING THE TERMS THAT BILL CLINTON OFFERED WHICH IS TO TESTIFY AT HOME IN NEW YORK AND NOT IN WASHINGTON.

IF THEY ULTIMATELY AGREE, WHAT IF ANYTHING ARE YOU EXPECTING TO HEAR?

AND COME OUT OF THESE HEARINGS?

HIS TESTIMONY?

>> WELL, WE KNOW THAT BILL CLINTON HAS ALREADY PUBLICLY SAID RELEASE EVERYTHING.

HE HAS BEEN ON THE RECORD WITH THAT.

AND THAT LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY FEAR THAT THERE IS SOMETHING IN THERE THAT WOULD HURT HIM.

BUT WE HONESTLY DON'T KNOW.

THIS EPSTEIN ORBIT WAS PRETTY BIG AND INVOLVED A LOT OF PEOPLE INCLUDING AT ONE TIME, ANYWAY, CLINTON.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD A STORY OF HIM BEING SEXUALLY INVOLVED WITH ANYBODY CONNECTED TO THE EPSTEIN CASE.

AND I'M SAYING THAT HONESTLY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT JUST MEANS SOMETIMES PEOPLE DO THINGS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND ARE REALLY MORE CAREFUL THAN OTHER PEOPLE.

SO I JUST DON'T THINK WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SAY.

MY GUESS IS IF THEY AGREE, THEN THEY PROBABLY FEEL THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE.

>> AND HE HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED OF ANY WRONG DOING.

NOR HAS PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT HIS NAME APPEARS OVER A THOUSAND TIMES IN THIS LATEST SET OF DOCUMENTS.

WHERE DOES HE END UP IN ALL OF THIS?

YOU TALK ABOUT SO MANY PEOPLE IMPLICATED ACROSS PARTY LINES.

DO YOU SEE THIS ULTIMATELY HURTING DONALD TRUMP?

>> WELL, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I THINK IT IS ALREADY HURTING HIM.

I THINK THE WAY HE HAS HANDLED THIS ROLLOUT IS ALREADY HAD RAMIFICATIONS WITHIN THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

I JUST THINK THAT THE ENTIRE THING HAS BEEN MISHANDLED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

AND I THINK THAT HAS HURT HIM.

WHETHER HE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT OR NOT, AND OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT HE DID, IT JUST, THERE IS A DISTRUST OF THE GOVERNMENT WHEN YOU ARE SAYING ONE THING AND DOING ANOTHER THING AND THERE IS AN IMPLICATION HERE.

THESE FILES ARE COMING OUT AND GOING BACK IN.

THEY ARE DISAPPEARING.

WE ARE SEEING A DOCUMENT AND WHEN WE GO TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN, IT'S GONE.

THAT SOWS DISTRUST.

>> AND THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL SAYS IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO HAVE PARTIED WITH JEFFREY EPSTEIN AND THAT IS TRUE.

MAYBE WORTH QUESTIONING SOMEONE'S JUDGMENT BY SPENDING TIME WITH A MAN LIKE THAT, BUT IT WAS NOT ILLEGAL.

HE ALSO SAID THIS WILL BE THE LAST OF THIS CASE AND THAT AS FAR AS THEY ARE CONCERNED THERE ARE NO FURTHER INVESTIGATIONS PONDING.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE JUSTICE THAT THESE SURVIVORS DESERVE, DOES THAT SOUND JUST TO YOU?

>> NO.

I MEAN LOOK.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

BECAUSE THE PUBLIC ARE GOING TO KEEP GOING ON THIS STORY.

THIS STORY WILL OUTLIVE ME.

AND THESE VICTIMS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP.

AND, I JUST THINK THAT IT IS VERY SHORTSIGHTED TO MAKE A BLANKET STATEMENT LIKE THAT.

TO ME IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE TO SAY WE ARE LOOKING AT THIS A LITTLE FURTHER.

THERE ARE SOME, I CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT.

BUT THERE ARE SOME THREADS WE ARE LOOKING AT.

BUT, BY SAYING NO, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE WHEN PEOPLE CAN GO ONLINE AND SEE THERE ARE THINGS TO SEE THERE, IS JUST, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

>> I'M JUST WONDERING, YOU MENTIONED OUTLIVE YOU.

YOU ALWAYS APPEAR IN THESE FILES.

EPSTEIN WARNED COLLEAGUES QUOTE SHE IS GOING TO START TROUBLE AND LATER TRY TODAY ARRANGE AND INTERVIEW WITH YOU AFTER YOUR REPORTING EXPOSED HIM.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE IN THE FINAL SECONDS WE HAVE HERE, TO SEE YOUR NAME, TO SEE YOURSELF DESCRIBED THAT WAY?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I TRY NOT TO THINK ABOUT THAT.

YOU HAVE TO WONDER IF THEY WERE DOING THAT, WHAT ELSE WERE THEY DOING?

I TRY NOT TO THINK OF MY OWN SAFETY.

I JUST KEEP PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER.

I KNOW EPSTEIN WAS DIGGING THROUGH THE TRASH OF EVERYBODY THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THIS CASE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND HE WAS HIRING PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THE VICTIMS AND YOU KNOW, DIG INTO EVERYTHING THEY COULD GET.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS IN THE BACK OF MY MIND THAT HE WAS PROBABLY INVESTIGATING ME.

>> WELL, JULIE, WE ARE ALL GRATEFUL FOR ALL OF THE INVESTIGATIVE WORK YOU HAVE DONE ON THIS STORY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT WAS A MOMENT THAT SHOCKED NEW YORK AND DIVIDED A NATION.

IN 1984, BERNIE GOETZ OPENED FIRE ON FOUR BLACK TEENAGERS HE CLAIMED WERE TRYING TO ROB HIM.

AT A TIME WHEN FEAR OF RISING PRIME WERE IDENTIFY, SOME SAW HIM AS A HOMETOWN HERO NAMING HIM THE SUBWAY VIGILANTE.

WHILE OTHERRING CONDEMNED WHAT THEY SAW AS AN ACT OF RACIAL VIOLENCE.

NOW ELLIOT WILLIAMS IS INVESTIGATING THIS CASE AND SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT WHY THIS STORY RESONATES TODAY.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> IN THIS BOOK, YOU ARE REVISITING ONE OF THE MOST EXPLOSIVE, DIVISIVE CASES IN NEW YORK FROM THE MID 80s .

I AM SAYING NEW YORK, BUT THIS GAME A NATIONAL ISSUE.

WHAT DREW YOU TO IT?

>> IT IS PART OF ME GROWING UP, MICHELLE, I GREW UP, I WAS BORN IN BROOKLYN AND GREW UP NOT FAR FROM THE CITY.

THERE IS AN ANECDOTE, THAT MY FIRST MEMORY OF THE CASE WAS THE STORY ON THE NIGHTLY NEWS THAT BERNIE GOETZ WAS A MUSE FOR HIP HOP.

WHY HAS THIS STORY STAYED WITH US AND WHY HAS BILLY JOEL INCLUDED THE NAME BERNIE GOETZ IN HIS SONG?

THERE ARE ASPECTS OF THIS CULTURE THAT RESONATE WITH US TODAY.

>> SO REMIND PEOPLE OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>> OKAY.

SO, WHAT IS NOT DISPUTED IS THAT BERNHARD GOETZ SHOOTS FOUR UNARMED BLACK TEENAGERS ON A SUBWAY TRAIN HE CLAIMED WERE TRYING TO MUG HIM.

HE RAN TO NEW HAMPSHIRE, WAS ON THE RUN NINE DAYS AND ULTIMATELY TURNED HIMSELF IN.

WHEN HE CAME BACK, HE WAS HERALDED AS A HERO BUT A BIG SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION AND IT WAS A POLARIZING CASE ABOUT SELF-DEFENSE IN NEW YORK IN ONE OF ITS ROUGHEST TIME IN HISTORY WHEN CRIME RATES WERE THROUGH THE ROOF.

>> WHO IS BERNHARD GOETZ?

I THINK MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOT HEARD OF HIM IN YEARS AND SOME MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO KNOW HE IS STILL ALIVE.

YOU HAD A LENGTHY CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

WE'LL GET TO THAT LATER.

BUT WHO IS BERNHARD GOETZ AND WHO WAS HE THEN?

>> HE WAS A QUIRKY, ODD LONER, A MAN WHO LIVED IN NEW YORK CITY.

37 AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING.

JUST, AN ODD INDIVIDUAL.

HIS NEIGHBORS WOULD SAY HE WAS IMMENSELY FRIENDLY ONE DAY, AND ODD AND DISMISSIVE ANOTHER DAY.

QUIRKY, HYPERKINETIC CLENCHED FISTS WALKING THROUGH HIS BUILDING BUT THE ONE ISSUE THAT SEEMED TO RILE HIM UP WAS PUBLIC SAFETY AND CRIME.

YOU COULD JUST SAY THE WORLDS CRIME OR DRUGS OR DRUNKS ON THE STOOP AND HE WOULD JUST GO OFF.

AND THIS GOES BACK TO EVEN THE 1980s , HE HAD BEEN MUGGED QUITE VIOLENTLY A FEW YEARS BEFORE THIS SHOOTING AND WALKED THE STREETS OF NEW YORK, NEVER LEFT HOME WITHOUT AN UNLICENSED FIREARM.

HE ALWAYS HAD THIS HANDGUN ON HIM.

AND TO SOME EXTENT, IT WAS ALWAYS A MATTER OF WHEN, NOT IF HE WOULD USE IT ON SOMEBODY.

>> SO WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT SUBWAY CAR?

SET THE SCENE FOR US?

>> NEW YORK CITY WAS AT ITS ROUGHEST, QUITE POSSIBLY EVER.

JUST TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE, BACK THEN, THE HOMICIDE RATE IN NEW YORK CITY WAS ABOUT 2,000 HOMICIDES A YEAR, 2,000 MURDERS A YEAR.

IT IS ABOUT 300 NOW.

IT IS JUST, ROUGH, AN INCOMPREHENSIBLE WAY TO MOST MODERN THINKERS OR VIEWERS OR AUDIENCES, RIGHT?

AND THE SUBWAY WASN'T IMMUNE.

IT WAS ROUGH, PEOPLE WERE OFTEN ASSAULTED, MUGGED, PURSES GRABBED ON THE SUBWAY.

SO THAT'S THE BACKDROP.

HE GOT ON THE SUBWAY CAR, AND ONE OF THE FOUR YOUNG MEN, TROY CANTE, ASKED HIM OR DEMANDED FOR $5.

THAT IS NOT CLEAR, AND THAT WAS NEVER QUITE ESTABLISHED.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, GOETZ THOUGHT HE WAS BEING MUGGED AND NEW YORK LAW ALLOWS IF SOMEONE BELIEVES REASONABLY THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE THE VICTIM OF A ROBBERY CAN USE DEADLY FORCE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

SO HE FELT EMPOWERED TO DO SO, THOUGHT A MUGGING WAS IMMINENT.

EVEN SAID, EVEN IF THE GUY JUST SAYS HI TO YOU, SOMETIMES YOU KNOW THOSE WORDS, HELLO, MIGHT BE AN ATTEMPT FOR A MUGGING.

PULLED OUT HIS GUN AND OPENED FIRE ON THE FOUR BOYS IN RAPID SUCCESSION.

>> AND YOU SAY BOYS.

WERE THEY BOYS?

>> THEY WERE 18 AND 19 YEARS OLD.

THAT IS A FAIR QUESTION.

IT IS THE QUESTION OF HOW TO REFER TO THEM.

I USE THE TERM TEENS IN THE BOOK, OR YOUNG MEN, BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THEIR TEEN YEARS BUT STILL ADULTS AND WE SHOULD BE FAIR IN CHARACTERIZING THE GOOD AND THE BAD IN ALL OF THIS.

BUT, BOYS CAME OUT THERE, SOME PEOPLE HEARD OF THEM AS KIDS.

I DID NOT IN THE BOOK.

>> ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, THIS CASE BECAME MORE THAN A CASE.

IT BECAME MORE THAN ONE INCIDENT.

SO I WANT TO ASK ABOUT BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHY DID THIS THING BLOW UP INTO THIS MYTHIC THING AND WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE SAYING?

>> SO LET'S REWIND.

THE FILM DEATH WISH HAD COME OUT.

AND WITHIN DAYS OF THE SHOOTING, THE NEXT DAY, EVEN BEFORE ANYBODY KNEW WHO BERNHARD GOETZ WAS, THE POST STARTED RUNNING GRAPHICS CALLING HIM THE DEATH WISH VIGILANTE AND SHOOTER.

THERE IS A MYTH IN AMERICAN POPULAR CULTURE OF THE NOBLE VIGILANTE T MAN WHO STEPS IN, USUALLY A WHITE MAN, WHO STEPS IN, AND FILLS THE VOID WHERE POLICE CANNOT.

AND THAT WAS AN ATTRACTIVE FANTASY TO MANY PEOPLE.

AND JUST THINK ABOUT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN AT THE TIME.

THE POLICE SET UP A TIP LINE NINE DAYS BEFORE THEY CAUGHT BERNHARD GOETZ.

THE PHONE CALLS WERE ALL IN SUPPORT OF THE SHOOTER.

SUGGESTING HE RUN FOR MAYOR, THAT HE SHOULD RUN FOR OFFICE.

THAT HE IS A HERO.

I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING IN THE SAME POSITION AND SOMETHING ABOUT HIM TOUCHED A NERVE IN PEOPLE.

AND IT WAS SUCH AN EASY NARRATIVE TO BUILD.

THEY WERE BLACK TEENAGERS, THEY WERE OSTENSIBLY MUGGING HIM.

HE WAS AN OTHERWISE LAW- ABIDING, MEEK, WHITE, ENGINEER, AND IT WAS, THE NARRATIVE JUST TOOK OFF AND TOOK HOLD THAT IN A CITY IN WHICH ELECTED OFFICIALS CANNOT KEEP US SAFE T PERSON DID WHAT NEED TODAY BE DONE.

AND THAT NARRATIVE TOOK HOLD AND THERE WAS NO GETTING OFF IT ONCE IT DID.

>> SO MANY CASES COME TO MIND.

THE STORY OF KYLE RITTENHOUSE.

HE DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO GO HELP THE POLICE AND WOUND UP SHOOTING SOMEBODY.

AND THE MORE RECENT CASE OF THE MAN WHO CHOKED THIS GUY OUT ON A SUBWAY WHO WAS FRIGHTENING PEOPLE BECAUSE HE WAS SORT OF A MICHAEL JACKSON IMPERSONATOR.

MAYBE PEOPLE THINK THIS IS ANALOGOUS TO LUIGI MANGIONE WHO SHOT THIS UNITED HEALTH CARE CEO ON THE STREET.

ALLEGEDLY BECAUSE HE IS ANGRY WITH THE WAY THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS TREATING AMERICANS.

SO, TALK ABOUT IF YOU WOULD, ARE THERE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THIS CASE THAT TOOK HOLD?

BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS COVERED?

ARE THERE THINGS, IS THERE A VARIANCE FROM REALITY?

>> THERE WAS A RUSH TO DEMONIZE THE FOUR YOUNG MEN.

CASE IN POINT, WITHIN DAYS OF THE SHOOTING, THIS NOTION THAT THEY WERE ARMED TOOK OFF AND NEWSPAPERS RAN WITH THIS NOTION THAT THEY WERE ALL CARRYING SHARPENED SCREWDRIVERS, THAT THEY BRANDISHED AS WEAPONS IN AN ATTEMPT TO MUG BERNHARD GOETZ.

THESE YOUNG MEN ALWAYS HAD COPIOUS AND SOMETIMES QUITE AWFUL CRIMINAL RECORDS.

BUT THEY WERE NOT CARRYING WEAPONS AT THE TIME.

THEY DID HAVE SCREWDRIVERS ON THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING DOWNTOWN TO BREAK OPEN VIDEO GAME MACHINES TO STEAL THE QUARTERS.

STILL A CRIME, BUT, NOT ARMED IN AN ATTEMPT TO ATTACK BERNHARDEDGE.

WHEN PEOPLE COME AT ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND OH THIS GUY WAS A HERO.

PEOPLE STILL SAY, THESE WERE FOUR GUYS CARRYING WEAPONS TO ATTACK BERNHARD GOETZ.

SO A LOT OF THOSE TOOK OFF.

AND AS I SAID A MOMENT AGO, WERE JUST EASY NARRATIVES FOR PEOPLE TO LATCH ONTO.

OF COURSE THESE FOUR YOUNG BLACK GUYS FROM THE BRONX WERE ARMED AND ATTACKING A WHITE MAN WHO WAS DEFENSELESS ON THE SUBWAY.

OF COURSE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED.

BECAUSE THAT IS JUST AN EASY NARRATIVE FOR SOCIETY.

>> YOU WRITE THE NICKNAME SUBWAY VIGILANTE ROMANTIZES GOETZ.

HE WAS NEVER THE SUBWAY TERROR OR ASSASSIN OR ANYTHING LESS AMBIGUOUS.

SEGMENTS OF AMERICA LOVE THE IDEA OF A VIGILANTE WHO ACTED NOT BECAUSE HE WANTED TO, BUT BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THE NOTION HAS SUCH STAYING POWER?

I'M MENTIONING SOME OF THESE OTHER CASES THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE NEWS SUBSEQUENTLY INCLUDING LUIGI MANGIONE.

PEOPLE ARE CALLING HIM A VIGILANTE.

AVENGING THE VULNERABLE.

LUIGI MANGIONE.

RACE IS NOT A FACTOR THERE, RACE WAS A FACTOR HERE.

HOW DO YOU THINK RACE WAS A FACTOR HERE?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY WAS.

I ALMOST INVITE REEDERS TO SEARCH YOURSELF AND ASK THE QUESTION.

IF YOU HEARD A STORY ABOUT A SHOOTING WHERE A MIDDLE-AGED BLACK MAN SHOT FOUR WHITE 18 AND 19-YEAR-OLDS, PEOPLE ALWAYS REFLECTIVELY SEEM TO SAY OH I WOULD REGARD IT THE SAME WAY.

BUT THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE, MICHELLE.

IT IS JUST NOT.

AND THIS IS THE WHOLE NOTION OF WHAT WE ALL HAVE KICKING AROUND IN THE BACK OF OUR BRAINS IMPLICITLY.

SO WHAT CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS WERE UP FRONT ABOUT SAYING LOOK, THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF THESE YOUNG MEN OR THEIR ACTIONS OR AN EXONERATION OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

BE IF THESE WERE WHITE TEENAGERS AND A BLACK ADULT, THE WORLD WOULD SEE THIS DIFFERENTLY.

IT IS STILL A CRIME.

IT WOULD PROBABLY STILL BE PROSECUTED BUT THE WAY EVERYTHING FROM THE MEDIA TO THE WAY THE JURY REGARDED THE CASE WOULD HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

>> YOU POINTED OUT THAT GOETZ WAS A BIGOT.

WAS, IS, A BIGOT.

IT CAME OUT AT TRIAL THAT HE MADE RACIST REMARKS, BUT THEN, THAT REALLY TURNS ON THIS QUESTION OF DID HE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE AFRAID?

AND IF SO, ON WHAT BASIS?

>> SO I WOULD SAY THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT HE HAD, IS BEING A BIGOT A BINARY, EITHER YOU ARE OR YOU AREN'T.

THERE IS NO QUESTION.

AS YOU SAID, HE USED THOSE ETHNIC SLURS UNAMBIGUOUSLY ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF A NEIGHBORHOOD.

EVEN WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, TALKING TO HIM, I WAS STUNNED BY THE LANGUAGE HE WAS WILLING TO USE ON THE PHONE WITH ME.

NOW.

>> DID HE KNOW YOU ARE BLACK?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I SENT HIM MY BIO AND HE READ THE BOOK.

WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGE I'M A BLACK PERSON.

THERE IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF ME IN THE BOOK.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID.

THAT IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.

>> BUT HE WAS VERY FREE WITH HIS REMARKS IS WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME.

>> HE WAS FREE IN HIS REMARKS ABOUT THE THINGS THE BLACKS WERE DOING AND THIS IS WHAT THE BLACKS DO.

AND HE KEPT SAYING THAT.

SO, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT KNOCKING AROUND IN HIS MIND, AND PART OF HIS FEAR WAS OF BLACK PEOPLE.

>> SO FAST FORWARD.

WHAT ACTUAL HAPPENED?

>> HE ENDS UP GETTING ACQUITTED OF VIOLENT CRIME CHARGES AND THEN ONLY CONVICTED OF THE GUN POSSESSION CHARGE.

I SAID HE WAS CARRYING AN UNLICENSED FIREARM.

ACKNOWLEDGED IT WAS UNLICENSED.

EVERYONE KNOWS HE WAS CARRYING IT BECAUSE HE SHOT FOUR PEOPLE WITH IT SO HE ENDS UP GETTING ACQUITTED.

>> AND SERVED TIME.

SERVED EIGHT MONTHS.

WAS SUED IN CIVIL COURT BY AT FIRST ALL FOUR, BUT THE MOST SERIOUSLY INJURED OF THE FOUR.

>> ONE FACTOR I LEFT OUT.

SO, THE THREE END UP AS FAR AS GUNSHOT WOUNDS GO, NOT ULTIMATELY THAT SERIOUSLY INJURED.

THEY ALL ENDED UP OKAY.

ONE OF THEM WHO HE SHOT TWICE SAYING YOU DON'T LOOK SO BAD, HERE IS ANOTHER BEFORE SHOOTING HIM A SECOND TIME, HE ENDED UP PARALYZED FROM THE CHEST DOWN AND BRAIN DAMAGED.

HE WINS A $43 MILLION SETTLEMENT FROM GOETZ WHICH BERNHARD GOETZ HAS NOT YET PAID AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE FOUR YOUNG MEN, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO INTERVIEW THEM.

IN PART BECAUSE TWO OF THEM ARE DECEASED RIGHT?

SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

>> I TRIED TO RECREATE THEIR STORIES AS BEST I COULD WITHOUT INTERVIEWS WITH THEM.

I GOT AS FAR AS SPEAKING TO TWO OF THE SISTERS OF ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN.

ONE ENDED UP DIES IN PRISON IN 2018.

ONE SORT OF, THE MOST TRAGIC OF THE STORIES ENDS UP DYING IN AN APPARENT SUICIDE ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE SHOOTING.

THE 27th ANNIVERSARY OF THE SHOOTING.

ONE ENDS UP BRAIN DAMAGED AND ONE SEEMS TO HAVE SOMEWHAT MOVED ON WITH HIS LIFE.

I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS CURRENT EXISTENCE.

HE MOVED OUT OF THE CITY, DOESN'T LIKE COMING BACK AND WORKS AS AN AUTO MECHANIC.

>> THIS WASN'T JUST ONE CASE.

THIS CASE IS LIKE OTHER CASES WHERE IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE FACTS THEMSELVES IT IS, YOU USED THIS TERM YOURSELF.

IT WAS A RORSCHACH TEST.

OF WHAT SAFETY MEANS.

WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO FEEL SAFE?

WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR LACK OF SENSE OF SAFETY?

ET CETERA.

SO WHAT ARE YOU LEFT WITH?

AND IT HAS TO BE SAID WITH YOUR SORT OF HISTORY AS A FORMER PROSECUTOR.

>> THINGS ARE JUST MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE ALLOW THEM TO BE AND THAT WE ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT.

I THINK BERNHARD GOETZ IS A MORE COMPLICATED FIGURE THAN THE WORLD SAW.

EVERYBODY SAW THIS AVENGING HERO.

I SAW FROM INTERVIEWING HIM AND BEING EMAIL BUDDIES WITH HIM, IN SOME BIZARRE WAY, AN ODD, ANGRY, COMPLEX MAN.

THESE WERE YOUNG MEN WITH FAMILY HISTORIES AND SO ON, BUT BECAME THE FACE OF BLACK URBAN TERROR AT THE TIME.

IT CAN BOTH BE THE CASE THAT NEW YORK CITY WAS HISTORICALLY AND MYTHICALLY ROUGH AND THE SUBWAY WAS A FRIGHTENING PLACE AND THE FOUR INDIVIDUALS WHO GET SHOT WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS THEMSELVES DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE LETHAL FORCE USED AGAINST THEM.

IT IS JUST MORE COMPLICATED THAN NOBLE VIGILANTE AND VICIOUS VICTIMS AND MAYBE IT IS SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THE TWO BUT I JUST THINK IT IS VERY EASY FOR THE WORLD TO GET REDUCTIVE ABOUT VIRTUALLY EVERY STORY OR CASE WE GREW UP WITH.

>> AND YOU POINTED OUT NEW YORK HAS CHANGED.

THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED IN SOME RESPECTS.

THERE HAS BEEN AN AFRICAN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

THE CRIME RATE HAS FALLEN TO HISTORIC LOWS.

OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE IN A DIFFERENT POLITICAL MOMENT.

I WONDER AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ASKED GOETZ THIS QUESTION, HAS HE CHANGED?

>> OH, HE HAS NOT CHANGED.

AND IF ANYTHING, WE ALL HAVE ELDERLY RELATIVES THAT CALCIFY IN THEIR VIEWS OVER TIME.

I THINK.

AND, I THINK HE HAS GOTTEN EVEN MORE INDIGNANT ABOUT THE SHOOTING.

I ASKED HIM WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM, DO YOU FEEL YOU COMMITTED AN ACT OF PUBLIC SERVICE?

SOUNDS LIKE YOU FEEL YOU DID SOMETHING GOOD.

AND HE SAYS THOSE GUYS NEEDED SHOOTING.

THAT IS NOT WHY I SHOT THEM.

BUT THEY NEEDED SHOOTING.

HE ALMOST SEEMS AN ADVOCATE FOR EUGENICS.

AND BELIEVING THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST SO EUROPEAN IRREDEEMABLE THEY ARE NOT PART OF SOCIETY.

>> IT IS ALMOST TRAGIC.

>> IT IS VERY SHAKESPEAREAN.

THESE WERE ALL TRAGIC FIGURES.

IT IS ALL JUST DEEPLY TRAGIC.

>> THANK YOU ELLIOT WILLIAMS.

> >> FINALLY, AN EXTRAORDINARY RESCUE AND TRUE HERO.

A 13-YEAR-OLD BOY IN AUSTRALIA SWAM A STAGGERING FOUR HOUR TO SAVE HIS FAMILY AFTER THEY GOT SWEPT OUT TO SEA.

AUSTIN APPLEBEE WAS WITH HIS MOM AND LITTLE BROTHER AND SISTER ON INFLATABLE KAYAKS AND PADDLE BOARDS WHEN THEY GOT SWEPT OFF THE COAST OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA.

AUSTIN THEN SWAM FOUR KILOMETER TO SHORE FACING MASSIVE WAVES.

NOT ONLY THAT, BUT HE HAD TO SPRINT TWO KILOMETERS TO FIND HELP.

HE SAID HE WAS THINKING HAPPY THOUGHTS TO GET HIM THROUGH THE GRUELING SWIM.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> I WAS FIGHTING ROUGH SEAS.

I THOUGHT I SAW SOMETHING IN THE WATER AND I WAS REALLY SCARED.

I WAS JUST THINKING, I WAS JUST THINKING IN MY HEAD I WAS GOING TO MAKE IT THROUGH.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT ALL MY FRIENDS AT SCHOOL AND FRIENDS AT MY CHRISTIAN YOUTH.

AND, YEAH.

I JUST SAID NOT TODAY.

NOT TODAY.

I HAVE TO KEEP ONGOING.

>> AND KEEP ONGOING HE DID.

AUSTIN'S RESILIENCE AND BRAVERY MAKING SURE HIS FAMILY GOT HOME SAFELY.

AN EXAMPLE TO ALL OF US.

HE DEFINITELY DESERVES AN EXTRA HELPING OF ICE CREAM INDEFINITELY NOW.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.