>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY".

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

FROM GAZA, AFTER TRUMP'S SHOCK PROPOSAL TO TAKE IT OVER, I SPEAK TO THE UNITED NATIONS' RELEASE CHIEF, TOM FLETCHER, BUT WHAT HE IS SEEING AND HEARING FROM PALESTINIANS, THERE.

>>> THEN, WE TAKE YOU ON THE HARROWING JOURNEY OF A CRITICALLY ILL TODDLER AND THE EVACUATION FROM GAZA THAT ALMOST DIDN'T HAPPEN.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, WHAT IS THE TRUMP DOCTRINE?

A LOOK AT THE LITTLE-KNOWN PHILOSOPHY THAT COULD BE DRIVING TO U.S. PRESIDENTS WORLDVIEW.

>>> PLUS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR GILLIAN METZGER TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE TRUMP-MUST PLAN TO DECONSTRUCT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAELI OFFICIALS ARE WELCOMING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SHARP PROPOSAL TO CLEAR OUT AND TAKE OVER GAZA.

THE DEFENSE MINISTER SAID HE HAS ORDERED THE ARMY TO DRAW UP PLANS FOR LARGE NUMBERS OF PALESTINIANS TO LEAVE THE TERRITORY.

EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO REAL BRUTE BLUEPRINT FROM THE U.S. ABOUT HOW THIS WOULD WORK, AND WHO WOULD PAY FOR THE REBUILD, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WENT ON FOX NEWS TO PRAISE THE IDEA THAT IS BEING ROUNDLY REJECTED BY HIS ARAB NEIGHBORS.

>> THE ACTUALLY IDEAL OF ALLOWING GAZANS TO LEAVE, WHO WANT TO LEAVE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

THEY CAN LEAVE, THEY CAN THEN COME BACK, THEY CAN RELOCATE AND COME BACK, BUT YOU HAVE TO REBUILD GAZA, IF YOU WANT TO REBUILD GAZA, YOU CAN'T HAVE -- THIS IS THE FIRST GOOD IDEA THAT I HAVE HEARD, IT IS A REMARKABLE IDEA, AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE REALLY PURSUED, EXAMINED, PURSUED, AND DONE, BECAUSE I THINK IT WILL CREATE A DIFFERENT FUTURE FOR EVERYONE.

>> BUT, WHILE THERE IS NO TELLING HOW MANY PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ACTUALLY WANT TO LEAVE, MANY ARE SAYING, VERY CLEARLY, THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

LISTEN TO THIS WOMAN.

>> Translator: WE WILL NOT LEAVE GAZA, WHATSOEVER.

EVEN THROUGH THE GREAT DESTRUCTION AND EVERYTHING, AND EVEN THE WEATHER.

WE ARE STAYING HERE IN OUR DESTROYED HOMES.

WE ARE STEADFAST IN OUR LAND AND WE ARE NOT GIVING A DAMN TO HIS STATEMENTS.

>> AND SHE SAID THAT WITH THAT RUIN BEHIND HER, AND TOM FLETCHER IS THE UNITED NATIONS' TOP HUMANITARIAN OFFICIAL.

HE IS JOINING THE SHOW FROM GAZA.

IT IS HIS FIRST VISIT SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

TOM FLETCHER, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

OF COURSE, YOUR FIRST VISIT SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, BUT ALSO, OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE THERE DURIN THE CEASE-FIRE.

JUST IN THIS SORT OF CONUNDRUM OVER WHAT GAZANS SHOULD DO, WHERE THEY SHOULD GO, WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN HEARING FROM THEM, THERE?

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, FOR HAVING ME ON, AND I'M CALLING, AS YOU SAY, FROM SOUTH GAZA.

SO I SPENT THE DAY MAINLY IN NORTH GAZA, WHICH IS PUMMELED.

AS YOU DRIVE ALONG, YOU ASK THE PEOPLE IN THE CAR, IS THAT A SCHOOL, THAT A HOSPITAL, IS THAT A HOUSE?

AND YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

MILES, AND MILES, AND MILES.

AND YOU SEE THE PEOPLE SEARCHING THROUGH THE RUBBLE, THEY HAVE STARTED TO GO BACK TO THE NORTH, AS WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT DAYS.

AND THEY ARE SEARCHING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES, THEY ARE SEARCHING FOR FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND WHAT YOU NOTICE IS THE DESPAIR AS THEY SEARCH THROUGH THE REMAINS OF THEIR HOMES, AND YOU SEE THE DOGS, AS WELL, ON THE RUBBLE.

AND WHAT YOU WILL NOTICE IS THAT THE PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING AND THE DOGS, AS WELL, ARE ALSO SEARCHING FOR CORPSES.

>> I HAVE CHILLS, AS YOU SAY THAT.

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO -- WELL, LET ME JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE ACTUALLY FROM CAROLYN LEAVITT, WHO AS YOU KNOW, IS THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, AND, YOU KNOW, SHE AND OTHERS, INCLUDING TRUMP, AS WE SAID, AND WYCOFF, WHO IS HIS ENVOY, THEY SAY GAZA IS UNINHABITABLE.

HERE IS THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKESPERSON.

>> THIS IS AN UNINHABITABLE PLACE FOR HUMAN BEINGS.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT FAMILIES CAN LIVE THEIR DREAM IN A REGION THAT LOOKS LIKE THIS, WITH NO RUNNING WATER, NO ELECTRICITY?

IT IS A DEMOLITION SITE RIGHT NOW.

IT IS NOT A LIVABLE PLACE FOR ANY HUMAN BEING.

AND I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE EVIL TO SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE SHOULD LIVE IN SUCH DIRE CONDITIONS.

>> LOOK, APART FROM THE IRONY THAT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A U.S.

BACKED WAR, IN REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th, WITH U.S.

MUNITIONS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY IS CALLING THIS A DEMOLITION SITE?

CAN PEOPLE LIVE THERE?

>> WELL, LOOK, JUST TO BE CLEAR, BEFORE COMING HERE, I SPENT THE MORNING WITH THE CABOOSE THAT WAS MOST HIT ON OCTOBER 7th, WERE 1 OF 4 WERE EITHER KILLED OR TAKEN HOSTAGE AND I SPENT TIME WITH THE COMMUNITY THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THEIR SITUATION.

THE COMMUNITY, BY THE WAY, ONCE PEACE WITH THE PALESTINIANS AND THEY WANT TO REBUILD THEIR LIVES AND THEY WANT TO SEE THE HOSTAGES COME HOME AND THE PALESTINIANS LIVING A CLEAR, FREE LIFE.

BUT, NO, WHEN YOU DRIVE THROUGH, ONE THING YOU DO NOTICE, MAYBE A WEEK AND A HALF AGO, THERE WAS MORE DESPAIR I AM HEARING FROM MY COLLEAGUES.

THE STARVATION LEVELS WERE HIGHER, THEN.

SINCE THEN, WE HAD GOTTEN 10,000 TRUCKS WORTH, MAINLY OF FOOD, IN.

SO, PEOPLE ARE AT LEAST NOT STARVING ANYMORE, BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IS, THEY ARE TAKING THE TENTS THAT WE ARE GIVING THEM, AND THEY ARE GOING BACK TO THEIR HOMES, AND THEY ARE PITCHING THOSE TENTS ON THE RUBBLE.

I MET ONE GRANDMOTHER TODAY WHO IS IN ONE ROOM IN THE BASEMENT, ABOUT WHAT IS LEFT OF THE HOUSE.

WE COULDN'T GO IN THERE BECAUSE IT LOOKED LIKE WHAT WAS LEFT WOULD COLLAPSE AT ANY MOMENT AND SHE SAID, "I'M STAYING HERE."

"ASK ME WHERE I WANT TO GO."

"THIS IS MY HOME, IT WAS MY PARENTS' HOME AND MY GRANDPARENTS' HOME AND WE WILL REBUILD."

SO, I THINK WHAT YOU ARE HEARING TODAY, WHICH I HADN'T EXPECTED, IS ACTUALLY LESS OF THE HOPELESSNESS AND DESPAIR THAT WE WERE HEARING, AND MORE OF A DEFIANCE, NOT ONLY AN ANGRY DEFIANCE, BUT JUST A SENSE THAT WE ARE STAYING AND THIS IS OUR HOME, AND WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

>> I ALSO HEARD SOME PEOPLE BEING INTERVIEWED ON THE RADIO WHO SAID THEY WANTED TO STAY, THEY SAID IF REBUILD DOESN'T START AND EVEN THE ARAB NATIONS YESTERDAY CAME OUT AND SAID THEY ARE COMMITTED TO DOING IT, BUT WHILE THE PALESTINIANS ARE STILL THERE, OF COURSE, IT IS A HUGE LOGISTICAL DRAMA AND DILEMMA.

BUT, THEN, WE MIGHT HAVE TO.

WE MIGHT HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO LEAVE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, ALSO, BECAUSE THEY SAID, YES, FOOD, AS YOU ARE CONFIRMING, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ELECTRICITY, THEY DON'T HAVE INTERNET, RELIABLE.

THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE RELIABLE, FRESH WANTING WATER.

PLUS, WE HEAR THAT FOOD IN THE MARKET IS STILL AT EXTORTIONATE PRICES.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THOSE BASIC NECESSITIES?

>> WELL, THE FOOD PRICES ARE COMING DOWN NOW BECAUSE WE'VE GOTTEN TWO WEEKS WORTH OF BREAD AND FLOUR AND THAT HAS MADE A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.

WE HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH TO 1 MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE AT RISK OF STARVATION.

THERE IS SOME COMMERCIAL TRAFFIC COMING IN.

FUEL IS VERY, VERY LIMITED.

PEOPLE ARE STILL COOKING ON FIRES THAT THEY HAVE BEEN FOR 15, 16 MONTHS IN THE RUBBLE OF THEIR HOMES.

I VISITED THE ONE DECENT PUMP WORKING IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, WHICH WE HAVE HELPED TO GET STARTED AGAIN, WHICH AGAIN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE COMING MILES IN ORDER TO USE THAT.

ONE OLD GUY, MY FATHER'S AGE, MID-70s, HE GOT THERE AND HE SHOWED ME HIS JERRY CAN OF WATER, ALL HE HE SAID IS THAT ALL I HAVE LEFT IN THIS WORLD IS THIS JERRY CAN OF WATER, BUT THEY ARE ABLE TO ACCESS THAT WATER.

THE GREATEST NEED AT THE MOMENT, CHRISTIANE, IS TENSE.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON GETTING IN, BECAUSE AS PEOPLE RETURN TO THEIR HOMES, AND AS WE SAID, IT IS QUITE WINDY, AND QUITE RAINY, AS WINTER CONDITIONS SET IN, WE HAVE GOT TO GET PEOPLE BACK INTO SHELTER AGAIN, SO TENTS IS THE BIG NEED, RIGHT NOW APPEARED >> AND DO YOU HAVE -- DO YOU THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS READY TO PONY UP FOR THAT KIND OF THING?

I MEAN, LOOK, WE HAVE SEEN, AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO EVEN FORMER TRUMP OFFICIALS ABOUT THE CUT OFF OF USAID.

EVEN THE MOST VULNERABLE SITUATIONS.

WE SEE THAT EVERY TALKS ABOUT DONOR FATIGUE AND THINGS ABOUT THAT, BUT YOU FEEL THE THINGS THEY NEED, LIKE THE TENTS, WILL COME IN?

>> WELL, WE ARE GOING CAPITAL BY CAPITAL, ASKING FOR THE SUPPORT WE NEED, WE ARE ASKING FOR ALMOST $4 BILLION RIGHT NOW, JUST TO SUSTAIN THESE SUPPLIES THROUGH THE CEASE- FIRE.

IT IS A 42 DAY WINDOW.

EVERY DAY WHEN WE CAN GET THESE TRUCKS IN, WE GOT 703 TRUCKS IN TODAY.

IT MEANS WE ARE SAVING THE LIVES OF SURVIVORS.

WE NEED TO GET TO AS MANY SURVIVORS OF THIS AS POSSIBLE.

NOW, I HOPE THE DONORS WILL COME FORWARD.

OBVIOUSLY, WE NEED TO MAKE THE CASE, DAY BY DAY, WE NEED TO TELL THEM EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED.

WE NEED TO SHOW THAT WE ARE EFFICIENT, THAT WE CAN DELIVER, THAT WE CAN DO THAT WITH LOCAL, TRUSTED PARTNERS.

WE NEED TO SHOW THAT THIS WON'T GET IN THE HANDS OF HAMAS, THAT WE HAVE THE SUPPLY CHAIN WORKING.

YOU KNOW, WE WILL GO DAY BY DAY.

WE HAVE GOT TO HOLD THIS CEASE- FIRE FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, AND I AM DETERMINED THAT NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SAY THE CEASE- FIRE FAILS BECAUSE WE WEREN'T DELIVERING THE AID THAT WE HAD BEEN EXPECTED TO DELIVER.

>> YOU MENTIONED HAMAS, AND OF COURSE, SINCE THE HOSTAGE EXCHANGE IS STARTED, HAMAS HAS BEEN VERY VISIBLE.

STILL LOOKS LIKE AND CLAIMS TO BE IN CHARGE.

IT APPEARS THAT THEY ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE ALSO INVOLVED IN SECURITY FOR THE HUMANITARIAN PASSENGERS, AND CHECKING CARS, AND BASICALLY DOING, I GUESS, WHAT WAS AGREED DURING THE CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT, ABOUT YOUR INTERACTIONS WITH HAMAS, THERE?

>> WELL, IT IS HARD TO SAY, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY HAMAS STAY OUT OF THE WAY OF US, AND WE AS WE DON'T WANT TO DO THAT THROUGH HAMAS.

CLEARLY, THEY ARE EMERGING, AND I DIDN'T SEE ANY HAMAS CHECKPOINTS TODAY, AS WE DROVE FROM THE NORTH, ALMOST ALL THE WAY TO THE SOUTH.

THEY HAVE OBVIOUSLY, DURING THE HOSTAGE HANDOVERS, TRIED TO BE AS VISIBLE AS POSSIBLE, THEY ARE SENDING THE MESSAGE OUT THAT THEY ARE STILL THERE.

BUT, IN MY CONVERSATIONS WITH PALESTINIANS, THEY ARE SAYING, WE NEED TO REBUILD OUR LIVES.

THERE IS NO LOVE FOR HAMAS.

THEY KNOW WHO HAS BEEN BOMBING THEM AND ATTACKING THEM, BUT THERE IS ALSO NO LOVE FOR HAMAS, EITHER.

YOU KNOW, I TALKED TO DOCTORS, CIVILIANS, AID WORKERS, WHO HAVE BEEN OPERATING UNDER SNIPER FIRE, AND THEY HAVE CARRIED ONGOING.

AT AL-SHIFA HOSPITALS, EARLIER, THERE WERE DOCTORS THERE WHO DELIVERED BABIES, WITH THESE QUAD COUPLES.

THEY WERE OUT THE WINDOW, SHOOTING AT THEIR COLLEAGUES.

AND THE FIRST VISIT ALL BY THE WAY, IF WE DON'T SURVIVE AND TELL THEM WE DID WHAT WE COULD.

AND I GUESS MY MESSAGE TO THE WORLD, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ABLE, WHO HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO COME IN AND SEE AND HEAR, BECAUSE ACTUAL MEDIA HASN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO DO THIS.

>> NO, WE HAVEN'T.

>> DID WE DO WHAT WE COULD?

WILL WE BE ABLE TO SAY, WE DID WHAT WE COULD?

AND THAT IS MY CHALLENGE RIGHT NOW, TO ANYONE WATCHING.

LET'S DO IT WE CAN.

>> I WILL TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO ONCE AGAIN SAY THAT WE AND MANY, MANY OF THE INTERNATIONAL PRESS CORPS INDEPENDENCE CONTINUE OUR REQUEST TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO LET US IN.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, THOUGH, WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH COGAT AND THE OTHERS?

YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI INFRASTRUCTURE THAT DEALS ALSO WITH THE AID GOING IN.

IS IT DIFFERENT FROM IT WAS?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> I SPENT TWO DAYS IN TEL AVIV BEFORE COMING HERE, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE CONDITIONS BEFORE I CAME IN, I COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN IN, OTHERWISE.

BUT, I HAVE HAD PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION WITH COGAT, WITH THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, WITH THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

I SPOKE TO THE PRESIDENT, AS WELL.

MY SENSE AT THE MOMENT IS THAT WE SHARE AN INTEREST IN GETTING AS MUCH AID IN AS POSSIBLE DURING THE CEASE-FIRE WINDOW, THAT THE ISRAELIS WANT THE CEASE-FIRE TO HOLD, AS WELL.

HAMAS, BY STAYING OUT OF OUR WAY, ALSO WANTS THE CEASE-FIRE TO HOLD.

SO, FOR A WHILE, WE HAVE THESE SHARED INTERESTS, AND THAT IS WHERE WE HAVE THE 10,000 TRUCKS COME IN JUST OVER TWO WEEKS.

SO, I WELCOME THAT.

THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING, EVEN JUST THREE WEEKS AGO, BEFORE THE CEASE-FIRE, SO IT IS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT.

>> BUT, NOT SUCH A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT, I GUESS, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT YOU HAVE ON THE GROUND IS UNWRA, RIGHT?

IT HAS BEEN DOING THE BUSINESS OF AGE, EDUCATION, AND ALL THE REST OF IT FOR THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES, FOR DECADES AND DECADES.

ISRAEL HAS BANNED IT, IT CAME INTO EFFECT LAST WEEK AND TRUMP ANNOUNCED THE U.S. WILL NOT RESUME FUNDING FOR UNRWA.

IT SAYS IT IS STILL OPERATING IN GAZA.

HOW?

AND IF IT DOESN'T, AND IF IT IS UNABLE, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE PLACE?

>> WELL, WE RELY COMPLETELY ON OUR COLLEAGUES, WHO REALLY DELIVER THE BULK OF SUPPORT TO PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

PARTICULARLY, EDUCATION AND HEALTH, WHICH NO ONE CAN REPLACE THEM ON.

BUT, I COORDINATE THE WHOLE OF THE U.N. HUMANITARIAN SECTOR, AND SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF AGENCIES -- I ACTUALLY HAVE JUST COME FROM A DINNER WITH A HUGE GROUP OF THEM.

AND SO, WE ARE WORKING TOGETHER WHETHER IT IS FOOD, DELIVERING FOOD, UNICEF WORKING ON CHILDREN.

OUR ROLE AS THE COORDINATOR, USPA WORKING FOR WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

SO, THERE IS A MASSIVE COLLECTIVE U.N. EFFORT, AND WE ARE DETERMINED NOT TO LET POLITICS GET IN THE WAY OF THAT.

I HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I HAVE JUST COME FROM A STAFF MEETING, AS WELL, ONE OF THE TOUGHEST MEETINGS I HAVE EVER DONE, AND THIS IS THE TOUGHEST WORKING DAY OF MY LIFE, LET ME BE CLEAR.

I HAVE RECENTLY BEEN IN SYRIA, I HAVE BEEN IN UKRAINE, THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THIS, CHRISTIANE.

YOU KNOW THESE PLACES WELL, SO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.

BUT, I HAVE JUST COME FROM A STAFF MEETING, AND JUST ABOUT EVERY PERSON ON MY TEAM, AS WELL AS HAVING THEIR OFFICES DESTROYED, HAS LOST FAMILY MEMBERS IN THE LAST 15, 16 MONTHS.

THEY HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES.

MOST OF THEM ARE DISPLACED, AS WELL.

SO, THEY ARE -- THEY ARE DELIVERING UNDER INTOLERABLE CONDITIONS.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

I MEAN, THERE IS A WHOLE CONVERSATION, EVERYONE WANTS THE CONVERSATION TO BE ABOUT UNRWA, BUT LET'S ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT LAST YEAR WAS THE DEADLIEST YEAR ON RECORD TO BE A HUMANITARIAN WORKER.

AND MOST OF THOSE DEATHS, ALMOST 300 OF THEM, WERE HERE IN GAZA.

>> ONE OF THE MOST DEADLY FOR JOURNALISTS, IN GAZA, AS WELL.

OF COURSE, MOST OF THOSE VICTIMS TRYING TO TELL THE STORY THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO TELL US, NOW.

CAN I ASK YOU, THOUGH, YOU SAY POLITICS SHOULDN'T BE INVOLVED IN AID AND HUMANITARIANISM, BUT POLITICS, BY THEIR OWN WORDS, IT'S VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN UNITED STATES.

THIS WEEKEND, USAID WILL GO DARK.

AND AID WORKERS AROUND THE WORLD ARE BEING TOLD THAT THEY HAVE SEVERAL WEEKS TO GET BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, AND NOBODY QUITE KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AID DISTRIBUTION OPERATIONS FROM THE UNITED STATES.

ELON MUSK HAS SAID, AND HE TWEETED, "USAID IS A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION.

TIME FOR IT TO DIE."

WHAT IS YOUR EVALUATION OF USAID?

AND HOW DO YOU THINK, IF IT DOESN'T OPERATE ANY MORE, IT WOULD COMPLICATE THE DELIVERY OF HUMANITARIANISM AROUND THE WORLD?

>> OH, LET ME BE CLEAR, I MEAN, USAID, I HAVE WORKED WITH USAID IN MANY PLACES AROUND THE WORLD, FOR DECADES, NOW.

THEY HAVE BEEN EXTRAORDINARY.

THEY HAVE BEEN A HUMANITARIAN SUPERPOWER.

THEY HAVE BEEN THE MAJOR SUPPORTER OF LIFE-SAVING WORK, GLOBALLY, FOR DECADES.

YOU KNOW, LAST YEAR, I RECKON WE PROBABLY REACHED 15 MILLION PEOPLE WITH LIFE-SAVING AID.

PEOPLE IN DIRE NEED, BECAUSE OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP, BECAUSE OF AMERICAN HELP.

I DON'T THINK AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE READY TO GIVE UP THAT LEADERSHIP OF THE WORLD.

THAT POWER ROLE THAT HAS BEEN SO IMPORTANT FOR THEM, OVER DECADES.

I HOPE THEY ARE NOT READY TO GIVE UP AN EXTRAORDINARY, LIFE- SAVING MISSION, THAT HAS DONE SO MUCH FOR THE WORLD.

BUT, OF COURSE, WE ARE NERVOUS, WE ARE ANXIOUS.

OUR PARTNERS ON THE GROUND CAN SEE THE IMPACT ALREADY, AND IN JUST THIS TEMPORARY FREEZE.

AND LOOK, EVERY COUNTRY'S TAXPAYERS, EVERY COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT, SHOULD REVIEW THE WAY THEY SPEND THEIR TAX PAYERS MONEY.

THAT IS THEIR FIRST RESPONSIBILITY.

THEY SHOULD BE DEMANDING THAT WE DO THIS IN AN EFFICIENT WAY, FOR LIBERTY, THAT WE REALLY DELIVER WHAT WE SAY WE WILL DELIVER.

BUT, THE HUMANITARIAN MOVEMENT IS HERE BECAUSE OF THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, GLOBALLY, WHO ARE IN SUCH DESPERATE NEED.

AND AMERICANS ARE ABSOLUTELY A KEY PART OF THIS, IN THAT EFFORT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I AM HOPING THAT THEY WILL SEE THE VALUE OF THAT WORK, AND THEY WILL SHOW THAT LEADERSHIP THAT WE KNOW THEY ARE CAPABLE OF.

>> TOM FLETCHER, HEAD OF THE U.N. HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATION, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM GAZA.

>>> AND NOW, A PALESTINIAN TODDLER WHO WAS FORCED TO WAIT WEEKS FOR PERMISSION TO LEAVE GAZA FOR LIFE-SAVING MEDICAL TREATMENT IS FINALLY IN JORDAN, RECEIVING THAT CRITICAL MEDICAL CARE.

OUR CORRESPONDENT HAS MORE ON THIS LITTLE GIRL'S JOURNEY TO SAFETY.

AND WE WARN YOU, OF COURSE, IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: JEN IS PREPARING HER BABY GIRL FOR THE DAY.

HABIBA IS FINALLY LEAVING GAZA FOR LIFE-SAVING TREATMENT.

THIS IS WHAT THE WEIGHT HAS DONE TO THE 2-YEAR-OLD.

THE BLACK AND SHRIVELED SKIN YOU SEE IS GANGRENE, WHICH HAS WORSENED DRAMATICALLY IN A NUMBER OF DAYS.

WE FOLLOWED HABIBA'S FIGHT FOR HER LIFE, FOR WEEKS.

AFTER OUR CNN REPORT, JORDAN HEARD HER CRIES FOR HELP AND DECIDED TO EVACUATE HER FOR TREATMENT, FOR A SUSPECTED RARE GENETIC CONDITION.

BUT, IT TOOK NEARLY TWO WEEKS.

TIME HABIBA DOESN'T HAVE, TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL DESCRIBED AS "DIFFICULT" BY JORDANIAN OFFICIALS.

ISRAELI OFFICIALS DID NOT RESPOND TO CNN'S REPEATED REQUEST FOR COMMENT ON HABIBA'S DELAY OF EVACUATION.

OVER THE PAST WEEK, AS HER MOTHER HELPLESSLY WATCHED HABIBA TEETER BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH IN INTENSIVE CARE, SHE HAD TO ALSO GO THROUGH A ROLLER COASTER OF EMOTIONS.

AS THEY PREPARED TO LEAVE FOR AN EVACUATION THAT WAS LATER CANCELED, SHE GOT CRUSHING NEWS -- ISRAEL WOULD NOT LET HER LEAVE GAZA WITH HABIBA, FORCING THIS MOTHER TO MAKE AN IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE, TO LET GO OF HABIBA TO SAVE HER LIFE.

>> Translator: DEAR LORD, IF THIS IS YOUR WILL, I WILL ACCEPT IT.

>> SHE PRAYED.

BUT, IT WAS JUST TOO MUCH TO ACCEPT.

SHE HAS TO STAY STRONG.

SHE IS HABIBA'S EVERYTHING.

ON MONDAY, THEY WOKE UP TO GOOD NEWS.

JORDAN HAD SECURED APPROVAL FOR HER TO TRAVEL WITH HABIBA, BUT THIS TIME, JUST AS THEY GOT READY TO GO, THEY WERE TOLD HER SON NO LONGER HAD ISRAELI PERMISSION TO LEAVE.

"YOU'RE A BIG BOY, I KNOW HOW HARD THIS IS FOR YOU," RENNA SAYS.

"GOD WILL TAKE BETTER CARE OF YOU THAN I EVER WILL."

NOBODY CAN MAKE HABIBA SMILE AND FORGET HER OWN PAIN LIKE HER BROTHER.

HE EVEN BRINGS OUT HER CHEEKY SIDE.

"I'M GOING TO GO AND LEAVE YOU," HABIBA SAYS.

BUT, THE THOUGHT OF BEING LEFT ALL ALONE IS JUST TERRIFYING FOR THE 11-YEAR-OLD.

"I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'LL DO WITHOUT THEM.

WHERE DO I GO, NOW?"

HE CRIES.

IT IS TIME TO GO.

THE AMBULANCE IS HERE.

HE PUTS ON A BRAVE FACE FOR THEIR GOODBYES.

>> FIVE.

>> BUT, SOON, AFTER THEY HEAD OUT, ANOTHER TWIST.

ZAHID IS CLEAR TO JOIN THEM.

JORDAN TRIED TO SPARE HABIBA THIS HARSH, LONG JOURNEY BY LAND, BUT ISRAEL WOULD NOT APPROVE A JORDANIAN AIRLIFT.

ACROSS THE BORDER IN JORDAN, THERE IS NO TIME TO WASTE.

THE MILITARY MEDEVAC CHOPPER THAT RENNA ORDERED IS HERE FOR HABIBA, FOR WHEN SHE CROSSES INTO JORDAN.

MIGHT FALL, THE MOMENT THEY HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR.

MEDICS MOVE FAST TO GET THE TODDLER.

HABIBA PIQUES UP QUIETLY FROM UNDER HER BLANKET, TOO YOUNG TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.

>> [ CRYING ] >> Reporter: AS SHE HEADS TO THE CHOPPER, SHE WANTS MAMA.

THEY NEED TO GET HER FAST TO THE HOSPITAL, BUT THEY DO IT, GENTLY.

IT IS A QUICK TRIP TO THE HOSPITAL.

THE MEDICAL TEAM IS HERE AND READY.

THEY ARE GOING TO BE MONITORING HABIBA EVERY SECOND OF THIS TRIP.

HABIBA IS STABLE, BUT SHE HAS JUST ARRIVED FROM AN EXHAUSTING JOURNEY OUT OF INTENSIVE CARE.

FOR A SHATTERED RENNA, IT IS TOO EARLY TO FEEL RELIEF.

AS WE GET READY TO TAKE OFF, THE TEAM COMFORTS HABIBA.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME THIS FAMILY IS FLYING, THEIR FIRST TIME SEEING THE WORLD OUTSIDE OF BESIEGED GAZA.

HABIBA'S STORY IS ONE OUT OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, WHO BECOME ANOTHER FACELESS STATISTIC OF THIS WAR, TRAPPED IN GAZA AND DEPRIVED OF LIFE- SAVING, MEDICAL TREATMENT.

ON MONDAY, ISRAELI AUTHORITIES SAID HABIBA'S EVACUATION IS AN "EXCEPTIONAL HUMANITARIAN GESTURE."

AS SOON AS SHE ARRIVES AT THE HOSPITAL, MEDICAL STAFF BEGIN WHAT DOCTORS IN GAZA COULDN'T DO.

IF OLD, CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS.

DOCTORS HERE HOPE THEY WILL BE ABLE TO SAY HABIBA'S RIGHT LEG AND HER ARMS, BUT THEY ALSO FEAR IT MIGHT BE TOO LATE.

HER JOURNEY OUT OF GAZA MAY BE OVER, BUT ANOTHER DIFFICULT BATTLE NOW BEGINS.

FOR LITTLE HABIBA.

>> WOW, THAT IS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO PROCESS, AND HABIBA IS NOT GETTING GOOD CARE IN JORDAN, HER MOTHER SENT THIS PICTURE OF HER IN HOSPITAL, SURROUNDED BY CHEERING BALLOONS.

HOWEVER, THERE IS STILL A REALLY TOUGH ROAD AHEAD, SHE IS STILL FIGHTING INFECTION AND IS WAITING FOR DOCTORS TO MAKE A POTENTIALLY LIFE ALTERING DECISION -- WHETHER THEY WILL NEED TO DO A TRIPLE AMPUTATION.

THANKS, OF COURSE FOR THAT REPORT.

>>> WAS DONALD TRUMP'S EXTREME FOREIGN-POLICY SWINGS, TALKING OF MAKING CANADA THE 51st STATE, TAKING OVER GREENLAND AND THE PANAMA CANAL, EXPERTS ARE SOMEWHAT AT A LOSS FOR HOW TO DEFINE WHAT HE IS DOING.

BUT, ONE HISTORIAN ARGUES THERE IS A CLEAR EXPLANATION FOR HIS WORLDVIEW, THAT OF A SOVEREIGNIST.

IN RECENT OPINION PIECE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES, RUTGERS PROFESSOR, JENNIFER MITTELSTADT, ARGUES THAT THIS MOVEMENT IS CENTRAL TO MUCH OF TRUMP'S DECISION-MAKING.

AS HAS ITS ROOTS IN THE EARLY 20th CENTURY AS A BACKLASH TO INTERNATIONALISM AND ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, WHICH PRECEDED THE U.N.

PROFESSOR MITTELSTADT IS JOINING THE SHOW NOW FROM NEW YORK, TO EXPLAIN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER WEEK IN WHICH TO HAVE YOU, BECAUSE THERE HAS JUST BEEN SO MUCH THAT EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO PROCESS AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO FINE.

AND SO, I WAS FASCINATED BY WHAT YOU WROTE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES.

SO, YOU START BY SAYING, HOW DID A PEEK ABOUT CHINA AND TOLLS LEAD TO UPENDING A LONG RESOLVED TERRITORIAL ISSUE ABOUT CONTROL?

AND A THREAT TO FORCE PANAMA INTO CEDING TERRITORY TO THE U.S. AND YOU ASKED, WAS THERE SOME LARGER RATIONALE TO EXPLAIN IT?

SO, I AM NOW ASKING YOU TO ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME, AT FIRST, TO COME UP WITH A RATIONALE.

I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON A PROJECT STUDYING GRASSROOTS, RIGHT-WING AMERICANS IN HISTORY AND THEIR INTEREST IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, AND IF ANYONE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT WAS GOING ON, WITH ALL OF THE DIFFERENT CLAIMS THAT TRUMP WAS MAKING.

BUT, THE TRUTH IS, IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

AS WE KNOW -- AND ESPECIALLY CLOSE WATCHERS OF TRUNK AND TELL US -- HE IS QUITE CHANGEABLE.

HE, HIMSELF, MAY NOT HAVE A CLEAR IDEOLOGY, BUT THOSE AROUND HIM, THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM IN CONGRESS, HIS POLICY ADVISERS, AND MANY OF THOSE WHO ELECTED HIM DO, IN FACT, HAVE AN IDEOLOGY.

AND WHEN I STARTED TO SEE HIM TALK ABOUT THE PANAMA CANAL, THAT IS WHEN IT CLICKED FOR ME, THAT WHAT I WAS SEEING ACTUALLY WAS AN INVOCATION OF THIS LONG TRADITION OF SUSPICION ABOUT INTERNATIONALISM, ORGANIZED AROUND PROTECTING NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY.

AND THE PANAMA CANAL WAS ONE OF THOSE PLACES THAT HAD LONG BEEN OF INTEREST TO THEM.

>> SO, AGAIN, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF ISMS THAT CONSERVATIVES HAVE HAD, WHETHER IT IS ANTI-COMMUNISM, NATIONALISM, OFTEN POPULISM, ALTHOUGH THAT CAN BE LEFT-WING, AS WELL.

IMPERIALISM, ISOLATIONISM -- AND YOU COME UP WITH THIS WORD, SOVEREIGNISM.

AND YOU SAY, THE PANAMA CANAL DEBATE, SORT OF SETTLED YOU THERE.

SO, TAKE US BACK, THEN, TO THAT?

AND WHY WAS THE PANAMA CANAL EVER SUCH A BIG ISSUE?

>> SO, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE PANAMA CANAL, YOU DO HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT EARLIER PERIOD.

THAT 1919 PERIOD THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT.

AND IT IS THEY, THEMSELVES, WHO USE THE WORD "SOVEREIGNTY."

IT IS THEY, THEMSELVES, THAT CALL THEMSELVES SOVEREIGNISTS, ANTI-INTERNATIONALISTS.

AND LOOKING BACK TO THAT PERIOD, YOU SEE THE BEGINNING OF A KIND OF QUESTIONING IN THE WAKE OF WORLD WAR I ABOUT, WHAT IS A STATE?

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS SOVEREIGNTY?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN APP WHEN GLOBALISM HAD COME TO A HALT HAD BECAUSE OF THE WAR?

NEW NATIONS CREATED WITH AND EMPIRES ARE DYING AND NOW HERE IS THIS IDEA THAT ON TOP OF ALL OF THIS, WE WILL HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT IS REALLY WHERE I THINK THE CONCERNS BEGAN FOR THEM.

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO HAVE SOME SORT OF LIMITATION, SOME KIND OF INTERFERENCE IN THE JURISDICTION, IN THE GOVERNANCE OF AMERICAN, I GUESS, PEOPLE, AND ALSO TERRITORY.

SO, THE CANAL BECOMES AN ISSUE AFTER WORLD WAR II, WHEN A NEW INTERNATIONAL BODY, OF COURSE, IS CREATED.

NONE OTHER THAN THE U.N. AND PRETTY SOON AFTER THE CREATION OF THE U.N., ALL KINDS OF NATIONS -- WHICH HAD EITHER BEEN UNDER IMPERIAL CONTROL OR WERE LOOKING TO GET OUT OF IMPERIAL CONTROL -- ARE USING THIS NEW BODY AND THE PROMISE OF THE UNITED NATIONS TO SEEK SELF-GOVERNANCE.

PANAMA IS AMONG THEM.

AND VERY EARLY ON, STARTS TO ASK IF THE PANAMA CANAL CAN BE TAKEN UP IN THE UNITED NATIONS, AS, ESSENTIALLY, A KIND OF DISPUTED TERRITORY, AND PRESSING TO HAVE THAT TERRITORY RETURNED, IN FACT, TO THE COUNTRY OF PANAMA.

>> AND YOU TELL THIS INCREDIBLE ANECDOTE OF THE THEN PRESIDENT OF PANAMA, IN THE '70s, BRINGING THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBERS TO PANAMA, AND SAYING, "A COLONY IN THE HEART OF MY COUNTRY."

IT WAS STILL UNDER THE U.S. CONTROL.

AT THE SAME TIME, YOU QUOTE A KEY AMERICAN SAYING, "IT IS OURS JUST AS MUCH AS THE CAPITOL DOME AND THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IS OURS."

SO, THIS WHOLE THING ENRAGES THE SOVEREIGNISTS AND YOU SAY IT BOILS DOWN TO A BATTLE BETWEEN THOSE WHO VIEW INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION AS A TOOL PROTUBERANT PROJECT AMERICAN POWER, VERSUS THOSE WHO FEAR MILITARY -- YOU MILITATING SOME RENDER -- IF THAT WERE TRUMP FITS IN?

>> I THINK SO.

ONE OF THINGS HISTORIANS SAY IS THAT HISTORY DOESN'T REPEAT ITSELF, BUT IT RHYMES.

THERE MAY NOT BE THIS INCREDIBLE, DIRECT LINE FROM THAT MOMENT IN 1973, TO TODAY.

BUT, WHAT THERE IS, IS THIS KIND OF RECURRING PROBLEM OF THE QUESTION OF, HOW DO PEOPLE RUNNING AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY UNDERSTAND INTERNATIONALISM?

DO THEY UNDERSTAND IT AS A TOOL THAT CAN BE USED, THROUGH WHICH TO LEVERAGE AMERICAN AUTHORITY?

I WOULD SAY, THE VAST MAJORITY OF LEADERSHIP IN THE UNITED STATES -- AT LEAST SINCE WORLD WAR II -- HAS UNDERSTOOD INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE UNITED NATIONS, THE IMF, LATER THE WORLD BANK, AS INSTITUTIONS TO WHICH THE U.S. CAN EXERT ITS OWN SOVEREIGNTY.

BUT I SUPPOSE ONE PERSON'S SOVEREIGNTY IS ANOTHER PERSON'S WEAPON, A WEAPON BEING UTILIZED AGAINST THEM, AND I THINK SOVEREIGNISTS ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THIS TO BE VERY COMPROMISED INSTITUTIONS, IN WHICH OTHER NATIONS AND NATIONS THAT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE SHOULD BE EQUAL TO THEM, WERE HAVING A SAY OVER THE THINGS THAT THE U.S. COULD DO AND SAY.

HENCE, THE PANAMA CANAL.

WHY SHOULD PANAMANIANS BE ABLE TO REQUEST THEIR OWN TERRITORY BACK, WHEN IT WAS "HOURS."

YOU KNOW?

AS MUCH AS THE CAPITOL DOME.

>> SO, FAST-FORWARD, AND YOU SAY, ACTUALLY, QUOTE THE SORT OF SOVEREIGN TESTS IN THE SORT OF PROJECT 2025 MOVEMENT, WHICH HAS BEEN VERY KEY TO THIS SORT OF STRUCTURE AROUND TRUMP 2.0.

BASICALLY SAYING, THEY MIGHT WITHDRAW FROM THE U.N., ITSELF.

THEY SAY INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT HE WROTE OUR CONSTITUTION, RULE OF LAW, OR POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY, SHOULD NOT BE REFORMED.

THEY SHOULD BE ABANDONED.

HOW FAR DO YOU THINK THIS MOVEMENT IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO?

TO THINK UP UNTIL COMING OUT OF THE U.N.?

FOR INSTANCE, TRUMP DID PULL OUT OF THE W.H.O., THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, AND NOW LIKE-MINDED PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINA WHO CELEBRATES TRUMP'S POLITICS, HAS ALSO DONE THAT.

DO YOU SEE THIS MOVEMENT GATHERING PACE?

>> IT DOES SEEM LIKE IT IS GATHERING PACE.

HISTORIANS ARE HISTORICALLY NO GOOD AT PREDICTING THE FUTURE, WHICH WE ARE MUCH BETTER AT LOOKING BACK AT THE PAST, BUT THIS HAS BEEN A DREAM, REALLY, OF ANTI-INTERNATIONALISTS SINCE THE FORMATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS, IS TO HAVE THE U.S.

WITHDRAW.

THERE WERE GRASSROOTS CAMPAIGNS, FROM THE 1950s ALL THE WAY UP, REALLY, ON AND OFF, THROUGH TODAY.

ASKING FOR THE U.S. TO WITHDRAW.

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, I THINK, THE ULTIMATE GOAL.

AND ALSO TO WITHDRAW FROM OTHER INTERNATIONALIST ORGANIZATIONS.

NATO, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS LONG BEEN SUSPECT ALONG ANTI- INTERNATIONALISTS, AS HAS THE W.H.O., AND A VARIETY OF OTHER ONES.

I WOULD EXPECT NOW, IN A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, FOR SOVEREIGNISTS TO DOUBLE DOWN.

I WOULD EXPECT FOR THEM TO LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES TO LOOK TO WITHDRAW FROM THESE ORGANIZATIONS, AND PERHAPS TO ENCOURAGE OTHER RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENTS, WHO ARE ALSO ANTI- INTERNATIONALISTS, OR RIGHT- WING PARTIES THAT ARE ANTI- INTERNATIONALISTS, TO DO THE SAME.

>> CAN I ASK YOU -- BECAUSE I KNOW YOU CAN'T PREDICT THE FUTURE, BUT YOU LOOK BACK -- AND THESE SOVEREIGNISTS ALSO FORMED A KEY PART OF AMERICA FIRST BEFORE THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

THEY DID NOT WANT AMERICA TO COME IN AGAINST THE NAZIS ON THE SIDE OF THEIR ALLIES.

I WONDER, WHAT WILL THIS DO FOR AMERICA, IF THIS PROJECT KEEPS MOVING FORWARD?

WHERE WILL IT LEAVE AMERICA?

>> WELL, YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT MY RELUCTANCE TO PREDICT THE FUTURE, BUT IF I HAD TO THINK OF A TIME.

THAT REMINDED ME OF NOW, I THINK I WOULD THINK BACK TO THAT PERIOD BETWEEN 1919 AND 1939.

SO MUCH WAS IN FLUX, AND PEOPLE WERE QUESTIONING THE WISDOM OF THE GREAT GLOBALIZATION THAT HAVE PRECEDED WORLD WAR I, AND WERE NOW SORT OF QUESTIONING WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAD BEEN A GOOD IDEA.

THEY WERE WATCHING THE NEW LEAGUE OF NATIONS AND WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS ACTUALLY PRODUCING THE PROMISES THAT THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS SAID IT WOULD, TO REDUCE CONFLICT, TO CREATE MORE EQUALITY AMONG NATIONS.

AND I THINK WE ARE SEEING, IN THE PAST 20 YEARS, A KIND OF CAUTION ABOUT THE GLOBALIZATION THAT WE HAVE SEEN, SORT OF SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR.

INTERNATIONALISM HAS BEEN THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN FOR ABOUT 25 YEARS, 30 YEARS, SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR, AND THERE ARE REAL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT IT HAS BEEN ABLE TO BRING TO EVERYDAY PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

SO, I WOULD EXPECT TO SEE A KIND OF, I GUESS, REALLY DIFFICULT AND CHOPPY PERIOD IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS WITH AN AMENDMENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER.

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR THE WARNING FROM HISTORY.

PROFESSOR MITTELSTADT, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND IS NOW A FAMILIAR SITE, PRESIDENT TRUMP AT HIS DESK, WIELDING HIS PEN, ISSUING EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

BUT, WHAT EXACTLY ARE THE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS OF THIS SIGNING SPREE?

GILLIAN METZGER IS A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR AT COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL AND HAS PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, AND SHE JOINED WALTER ISAACSON NOW TO DECIPHER THE ACTIONS THAT WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR, AND WHAT COMES NEXT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND PROFESSOR GILLIAN METZGER, THANK YOU TO THE SHOW.

>> THANLK FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS EMBARKED ON SORT OF A WIDE- RANGING ASSAULT, SHUTTING DOWN AGENCIES, AND CUTTING SPENDING.

IT WAS PRETTY MUCH WHAT HE WAS ELECTED TO DO, AND CONGRESS HAS OFFERED NO REAL PUSHBACK.

SO, WHAT IS WRONG WITH WHAT HE IS DOING?

>> WELL, THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS THAT ARE CONCERNING ABOUT WHAT HE IS DOING.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A REALLY REMARKABLE EXERTION OF EXECUTIVE POWER.

OUR SYSTEM IS NOT ONE WHERE A PRESIDENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOVERNING SINGLE-HANDEDLY.

MANY OF THE ACTIONS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN CERTAINLY APPEAR TO BE ACTING IN THE FACE OF GOVERNING STATUTES.

SOME INSTANCES THAT ALTER THE ALL CONSTITUTION.

SO, I THINK HIS ACTIONS SO FAR DO RAISE SOME PRETTY SERIOUS RULE OF LAW CONCERNS.

>> LET'S GO IN DEFIANCE OF THE CONSTITUTION.

GIVE ME A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES?

>> WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER ON BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP IS VERY HARD TO CLEAR, TO PUT IT MILDLY, WITH THE 14th AMENDMENT, AND HAS BEEN ENJOINED ALREADY ON THAT BASIS.

SOME OF THE CLAIMS THAT WE MAY SEE AND SOME OF THE ACTIONS ON FUNDING MAY REFLECT A VERY CAPACIOUS VIEW OF THE PRESENT HAVING AN INHERENT POWER TO NOT SPEND WHICH IS NOT A POWER THAT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED, AND IN FACT THE CONSTITUTION VERY STRONGLY GIVES THE POWER OF THE PURSE TO CONGRESS, SO THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER AREA WHERE CONCERNED ABOUT HIS ACTIONS NOT WORKING WITH A CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK.

>> LET'S DOLE DOWN ON THAT POWER NOT TO SPEND, WHETHER IT BE SEQUESTERING, ENDOWMENT, OR JUST NOT SPENDING MONEY THAT HAS BEEN APPROPRIATED BY CONGRESS.

THAT SEEMS A SOMEWHAT MURKY -- ALTHOUGH, THERE HAVE BEEN CASES ABOUT IT -- AREA.

TO WHAT EXTENT CAN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WASTEFUL MONEY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND IT?

>> YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT -- THERE IS ACTUALLY A VERY ARTICULATED LEGAL FRAMEWORK THAT GOVERNS SPENDING.

THERE IS, IN THE CONSTITUTION, GRANTING THE SPENDING POWER TO CONGRESS AND ALSO THE APPROPRIATIONS CLAUSE, THAT SAYS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CANNOT MAKE SPENDING WITHOUT AN APPROPRIATION FROM CONGRESS, THE TWO THINGS THAT REALLY REITERATE WHY CONGRESS IS THE MAIN CONSTITUTIONAL ACTOR.

>> THAT SAYS THAT THEY CAN'T MAKE SPENDING WITHOUT APPROPRIATION, BUT CAN YOU JUST NOT SPEND SOME MONEY THAT HAS BEEN APPROPRIATED, IF THEY THINK IT IS WASTEFUL?

>> SO, WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT SPENDING, YOU ARE STILL ACTUALLY ACTING IN VIOLATION OF THE STATUTE, BECAUSE THE STATUTE, THE APPROPRIATIONS STATUTE, GRANTS THE FUNDS, AND IF IT IS A STATUTE THAT DOESN'T GRANT DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THEY ARE EXPENDED, OR IF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS ACTING IN A WAY THAT IS AT ODDS WITH THAT STATUTE, YOU STILL HAVE A VIOLATION OF CONGRESS' CONTROL OVER FUNDING.

THERE IS ALSO A BACKGROUND STATUTE, WHICH DATES BACK TO 1974.

IT WAS ENACTED IN RESPONSE TO THE LAST PRESIDENT, WHO RAISED THIS KIND OF BROAD ATTACK ON SPENDING, WHICH WAS PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON.

IT IS THE CONTROL ACT OF 1974, AND IT VERY SIGNIFICANTLY RESTRICTS THE OCCASIONS ON WHICH THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN REFUSE TO SPEND MONEY THAT HAS BEEN APPROPRIATED BY CONGRESS.

>> SO, LET'S SAY HE DOESN'T SPEND MONEY, OR THE BUREAUCRACY DOESN'T, OR THE AGENCY DOESN'T SPEND MONEY.

WHAT IS THE LEGAL RECOURSE?

DOES CONGRESS HAVE TO SUE TO STOP IT?

CAN AN ORDINARY CITIZEN SUIT TO STOP THAT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE FILED A COUPLE OF LAWSUITS ALREADY -- ONE BY A GROUP OF STATES, AND ONE BY A GROUP OF NONPROFITS.

BOTH OF WHICH, WERE AFFECTED BY THE FUNDING FREEZE, IN TERMS OF HAVING FUNDS THAT THEY WERE EXPECTING OR RELYING ON, TAKEN AWAY.

SO, THAT GIVES THEM COME IN THAT SENSE, STANDING.

AND THE CLAIMS THAT THEY HAVE RAISED OUR ATTACKS ON THE ACTION AS BEING ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS, BECAUSE THESE ARE LAWSUITS AIMED PARTICULARLY AT THE OMB MEMO IN PART, AND THE LACK OF EXPLANATION IN THAT VERY BRIEF MEMO FOR THIS CATEGORY ACROSS THE BOARD, PAUSE IN FUNDINGS, WHAT THEY ARE TARGETING IS ARBITRARY PURCHASES AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF AUTHORITY ON THE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO JUST PAUSE FUNDING, WHICH AGAIN, CONGRESS HAS REQUIRED.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME -- NO DOUBT, THERE ARE SOME STATUTES THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THE SPENDING CLAUSE, THAT, IN FACT, DO GIVE SOME DISCRETION TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

BUT AGAIN, THE PAUSE AND ACTING IN SUCH A CATEGORICAL AND ACROSS-THE-BOARD WAY, THAT IT REALLY -- YOU CAN'T TIE INTO THE SPECIFIC STATUTES.

IT IS A REAL DEVIATION FROM THE WAY APPROPRIATIONS AND SPENDING HAS BEEN TREATED IN THE PAST.

>> DOES IT MATTER IF CONGRESS -- LET'S SAY IT JUST ROLLS OVER, AS IT SEEMS TO BE DOING AT THE MOMENT?

>> I THINK IT DOES MATTER.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DO LAWSUITS, AND LAWSUITS IN THIS CASE, THEY ARE VERY QUICK, TEMPORARY INJUNCTIONS PUT IN PLACE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, FUNDAMENTALLY, IT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE CONGRESS THAT IS DEFENDING ITS CORE CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES.

SO FAR, WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN THAT, AND WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO SEE IT, IN ORDER TO REALLY ENFORCE THE CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK.

>> WELL, LET'S GO OVER SOME OF THE SPECIFIC THINGS.

THERE IS USAID, THE AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, FOREIGN AID, AND HE WANTS TO EITHER DECIMATE IT, OR SHUT IT DOWN, OR ROLL IT INTO THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

IS THAT LEGAL?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS, FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN, SO FAR.

THE MOST BASIC PROBLEM IS THAT USAID IS AN AGENCY THAT WAS CREATED BY CONGRESS.

CONGRESS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO CREATE AGENCIES, NOT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

IF CONGRESS CREATES AN AGENCY, THEN IT WILL TAKE ACTION BY CONGRESS TO DE-CREATE AN AGENCY.

THE APPROPRIATIONS STATUTES FOR FISCAL YEAR 2024 DO ALLOW THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO DO SOME REORGANIZATION, BUT ONLY IF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CONSULTS WITH CONGRESS, FIRST, AND ACTUALLY PROHIBITS THE USE OF ANY FUNDS THAT GO TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR USAID FOR A REORGANIZATION, WHERE THERE HASN'T BEEN THAT KIND OF CONSULTATION WITH CONGRESS.

SO, THIS ACTION SEEMS TO BE REALLY FLYING IN THE FACE OF THAT STATUTORY FRAMEWORK.

>> LET'S TAKE ANOTHER ONE, WHICH IS THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU.

THAT ALSO SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ROLLED INTO THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT, THE NEW TREASURY SECRETARY IS NOW IN CHARGE, AND HE IS BASICALLY, I WON'T SAY SHUTTING IT DOWN, BUT DISMANTLING IT A LOT.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

AN EXAMPLE OF ALSO SOMETHING CHUMP RAN ON, SAYING HE WAS GOING TO DO.

>> JUST BECAUSE HE RUNS ON IT, DOESN'T MEAN HE GETS TO DO IT IF IT IS AT ODDS WITH GOVERNING STATUTES.

THAT IS KIND OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE THAT HAS OUTLINED A LOT OF THESE LAWSUITS, NOW TRYING TO ENSURE THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH ACTIONS GO FORWARD IN ACCORDANCE WITH GOVERNING STATUTES.

FOR THE CFPB, YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE STATUTE CREATING THE AGENCY, AND ASSESS WHETHER OR NOT THIS WAS A POWER THAT TREASURY HAD.

THE CFPB WAS INITIALLY CREATED AS AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY WITH VERY STRONG INDEPENDENCE PROTECTIONS, MANY OF WHICH, IT STILL HAS IN TERMS OF, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVING A BUDGET THAT IS INDEPENDENT, AND INDEPENDENTLY FUNDED.

SO, THE QUESTION WOULD BE, IN ALL OF THESE CASES, WHETHER OR NOT THE ACTIONS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS ASSERTING IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE GOVERNMENT STATUTES AND THAT IS WHAT COURTS ARE LOOKING AT.

>> ALL OF THIS SEEMS PART OF A LARGER DISPUTE, ONE THAT WE KNOW THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO HAVE TO RESOLVE ON WHETHER THE EXECUTIVE IS SORT OF UNITARY, AND THAT THE PRESIDENT CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS WITH THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

EXPLAINED THAT THEORY, AND THE SENSE YOU HAVE OF THE SUPREME COURT, WHICH SEEMS TO BE SOMEWHAT MORE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT THEORY THAN PREVIOUS COURTS?

>> YEAH, IT CERTAINLY IS.

THE UNITARY EXECUTIVE THEORY EMPHASIZES THAT THE EXECUTIVE POWER UNDER THE CONSTITUTION IS VESTED IN A PRESIDENT, A SINGLE PRESIDENT, AND EMPHASIZES THAT HE, UNDER THIS THEORY, GETS TO EXERCISE ALL OF THE EXECUTIVE POWER, WHICH IS THEN UNDERSTOOD TO MEAN, NOT SIMPLY SUPERVISE THE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY BY ALL OF THE DIFFERENT EMPLOYEES, AND DEPARTMENTS, AND AGENCIES THAT CONGRESS CREATES IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, USING CONGRESS' OWN CONSTITUTIONAL POWER, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE PRESIDENT SORT OF HAS THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE THE DECISIONS, AND IN PARTICULAR, TO MOVE OFFICIALS EXERCISING EXECUTIVE POWER.

PARTICULARLY, SO FAR, THE COURT HAS EMPHASIZED THAT AT THE HIGH LEVEL, RIGHT?

SO, WE ARE TALKING, IN PARTICULAR, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CFPB DIRECTOR OR PRINCIPAL OFFICER IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, WHO HAS A FIVE-YEAR TERM.

SO, THIS SUPREME COURT HAS TAKEN A BROAD VIEW OF PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY, AND ASSERTED THIS UNITARY EXECUTIVE, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF CHALLENGES TO REMOVAL RESTRICTIONS.

SO FAR, THE COURT HAS NOT OVERTURNED GOING BACK TO 1935 THAT DOES ALLOW PROTECTIONS FOR A MEMBER HEADED AGENCY, FOR EXAMPLE, OR FOR INFERIOR OFFICERS WHO DO NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANT POLICYMAKING AUTHORITY.

>> WELL, GET SPECIFIC ON THAT?

LIKE, IS THAT THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD, AND TRUMP FIRED A DEMOCRAT ON IT?

IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> RIGHT.

SO, THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD COMMISSIONER WOULD BE A PRINCIPAL OFFICER, AND THE QUESTION, IF THAT GOES FORWARD -- AND I BELIEVE A LAWSUIT HAS BEEN FILED -- THE QUESTION THAT WILL BE RAISED IS, THAT IS NOT CAPABLE OF THE GOVERNMENT STATUTE OF REMOVAL PROTECTIONS, AND WHETHER OR NOT THOSE PROTECTIONS INTRUDE ON THE PRESIDENT'S ABILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND HIS ABILITY TO REMOVE HIGH- RANKING EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICIALS.

IN ITS RECENT DECISIONS, AGAIN, THE COURT HAS RETAINED THIS EARLIER PRECEDENT THAT ALLOWS LEGAL PROTECTIONS FOR MULTIMEMBER BOARDS THAT ARE SORT OF DIVIDED ON PARTISAN GROUNDS, WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL CONCLUDE THAT THE EXERCISES TOO MUCH EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY, OR THAT THE PROTECTIONS AGAINST REMOVAL IN THAT STATUTE ARE TOO GREAT, OR DECIDE TO OVERTURN THAT EARLIER PRESIDENT, IS ONE THINGS THAT THE LITIGATION WILL SHOW.

>> THIS IS PART OF THE LARGER MOVEMENT THAT STARTED WITH THE OVERTURNING OF CHEVRON, WHICH IS WHERE YOU KIND OF DEFER TO AGENCIES, UNELECTED AGENCIES, TO MAKE RULES AND REGULATIONS ABOUT WHAT CONGRESS DOES.

TELL ME HOW THAT FITS INTO, I GUESS, WHAT THE TRUMP PEOPLE WOULD CALL OVERREACH BY THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY AND THEIR DESIRE TO TRIM THAT ABILITY BACK?

>> WHAT CHEVRON BASICALLY SAID IS THAT IF AN AGENCY IS CHARGED WITH IMPLEMENTING A STATUTE, THEN A COURT SHOULD DEFER TO THE AGENCIES' INTERPRETATION OF THE AMBIGUOUS STATUTE, IF THAT INTERPRETATION IS REASONABLE.

AND IN THAT SENSE, YES, IT GAVE AGENCIES DEFERENCE FOR THEIR INTERPRETATIONS OF STATUTES ON THE GROUNDS THAT CONGRESS HAD IMPLICITLY DELEGATED AUTHORITY TO THEM BY HAVING THEM BE THE IMPLEMENTOR OF THESE STATUTES.

INTERESTINGLY, WE HAVE A PRESIDENT AND ADMINISTRATION RIGHT NOW THAT ARE MAKING VERY BOLD ASSERTIONS OF EXECUTIVE POWER, AND IN FACT, WHAT WE SEE WITH THE ROBERTS COURT, IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN PRETTY SKEPTICAL ABOUT SOME OF THESE BROADER ASSERTIONS OF EXECUTIVE POWER, AND IN PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ASSERTING PARTICULAR VIEWS OF GOVERNING STATUTES, UNDER THE OVERTURNING OF CHEVRON, THEY WILL NO LONGER GET DEFERENCE FOR THOSE VIEWS, SO WHETHER OR NOT THE ROBERTS COURT APPROACH TO AUTHORITY AND ITS ASSERTION OF JUDICIAL POWER TO REVIEW AGENCY INTERPRETATIONS ENDS UP SITTING WITH THE AGENDA OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH WANTS TO ASSERT EXECUTIVE POWER IN ITS OWN RIGHT, IS SOMETHING WE STILL HAVE TO SEE.

>> SO, TOO SIMPLE IF I THAT A BIT, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT THE DECISIONS -- WHICH CONSERVATIVES CHEERED -- OF NOT ALLOWING THE AGENCIES TOO MUCH DIFFERENCE WHEN THEY MAKE REGULATIONS, COULD COME BACK, AND HEARD WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO, WHICH IS LET SOME OF THESE APPOINTEES OF HIS IN THESE AGENCIES SCALE THINGS BACK RADICALLY?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS GOING TO BE COURTS DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT AGENCIES HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO THE ACTIONS THEY WANT TO DO, WITHOUT GIVING THEM DEFERENCE.

CHEVRON WAS ALWAYS A DOCTRINE THAT SERVES THE INTEREST OF THE ADMINISTRATION IN POWER, IN TERMS OF GIVING IT DEFERENCE.

SO, WE WILL SEE WHETHER OR NOT IT COMES BACK TO BITE A LITTLE BIT.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT DOGE, THE SO-CALLED DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED BY TRANSFORMING THE U.S. DIGITAL SERVICE, RUN BY ELON MUSK.

IT HAS BEEN GIVEN A LOT OF ACCESS, INCLUDING TO THE TREASURY PAYMENT SYSTEMS, THE SECRETARY OF TREASURY SAYS.

IS THERE SOMETHING ILLEGAL OR WRONG WITH THAT, IN YOUR OPINION?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE SOME REAL CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED, THERE ARE SOME REAL PRIVACY ACT CONCERNS, THERE ARE SOME REAL CONCERNS ABOUT SORT OF JUST THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

THESE ARE SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY CLOSELY HELD, AND ACCESS TO THEM IS STRINGENTLY LIMITED, SO IT IS CONCERNING, TO THINK THAT THEY ARE BEING MADE OPEN MORE GENERALLY.

THERE HAS BEEN LITIGATION, A LAWSUIT AGAIN FILED, AND THIS IS RAISING THE PRIVACY ACT CHALLENGE TO SOME OF WHAT -- SOME OF THE ACCESS THAT HAS BEEN GRANTED.

>> ELON MUSK HAS BEEN CALLED A "SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

AND IS HE SUBJECT TO THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST RULES IN GOVERNMENT?

>> SO, SPECIAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ARE A CATEGORY OF EMPLOYEE THAT ARE STATUTORILY AUTHORIZED.

THE CRITICAL FEATURE IS THAT THEY ARE OFFICES OR EMPLOYEES WHOSE TENURE IS EXPECTED TO BE TEMPORARY AND LIMITED TO 130 DAYS OUT OF A 365 DAY PERIOD.

THEY ARE SUBJECT TO MANY OF THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST REQUIREMENTS AND THE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS.

THEY HAVE SOME EXEMPTIONS FROM SOME REQUIREMENTS AND THEY MAY NOT NEED TO FILE PUBLICLY ON THE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE FRONT.

DEPENDING ON HOW MANY DAYS THEY ARE EMPLOYED.

BUT, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO THOSE RESTRICTIONS.

>> AND WHO IS SUPPOSED TO ENFORCE THOSE RESTRICTIONS?

>> WELL, THOSE ARE RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE GENERALLY ENFORCED, FOR EXAMPLE, BY THE OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT, AND BY OTHERS IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> AND CAN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF DECIDE HOW THOSE WILL BE ENFORCED?

>> AGAIN, A CORE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PRESIDENT IS TO TAKE CARE THAT THE LAW BE FAITHFULLY EXECUTED.

AND THAT IS AN OBLIGATION THAT THE PRESIDENT AND LEADERS OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, HISTORICALLY HAVE TAKEN QUITE SERIOUSLY.

SO, IF A STATUTE REQUIRES DISCLOSURE, THEN I WOULD ASSUME THE ADMINISTRATION WOULD TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.

>> OVER THE PAST 20 OR 30 YEARS, PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN USING EXECUTIVE AUTHORITIES, AND ORDERS, AND JUST EXPANDING PRESIDENTIAL POWER.

CONGRESS HAS BEEN DEFIANT, THE COURTS HAVE BEEN DEFINED.

HAS THE PRESIDENT HAD THIS MUCH AUTHORITY, EVER BEFORE IN OUR HISTORY?

AND IS THIS A TREND THAT TRUMP IS JUST ACCELERATING?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT, WE ARE ON A PATH TO EXPANDING EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY, IN PART, GIVING SOME OF THE POLITICAL DIVIDES IN THE COUNTRY, AND AS A RESULT, THE DIFFICULTY CONGRESS HAS HAD IN TERMS OF TAKING ON MAJOR ISSUES, AND ENACTING LEGISLATION.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS, IN SOME WAYS, THE FOLLOWING ON, AN EXPANSION ON THAT TREND, AND THE DEGREE TO WHICH THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION APPEARS TO BE ACTING IN THE FACE OF GOVERNING STATUTES AND THE FACE OF THE CONSTITUTION IS, I THINK, A DISTINCTIVE TRAIT AND ONE THAT IS PARTICULARLY ALARMING AND WORTH HIGHLIGHTING, BUT THE OVERALL EXPANSION OF PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE.

>> PROFESSOR GILLIAN METZGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND SINCE THAT INTERVIEW, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS AGREED TO LIMIT THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, DOGE'S ACCESS TO HIGHLY SENSITIVE PAYMENT SYSTEMS WITHIN THE TREASURY.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, THERE IS LESS THAN A MONTH TO GO UNTOLD THE ACADEMY AWARDS, WHERE SOME OF THE YEARS BEST FILMS WILL BUFF IT OUT FOR OSCARS, LIKE "THE SEED OF THE SACRED FIG" -- IT IS A FAMILY DRAMA SET AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF POLITICAL PROTEST IN IRAN.

HERE IS PART OF THE TRAILER.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> I SPOKE WITH DIRECTOR, MOHAMMAD RASOULOF, ABOUT WHAT INSPIRED THE NATIVE -- NARRATIVE.

>> Translator: THE STORY OF THE FILM DERIVES FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.

WHEN THE WOMAN, LIFE, FREEDOM MOVEMENT BEGAN, I WAS IN PRISON, AND THE EXPERIENCE OF THIS REVOLT, FOR ME, HAD TO DO WITH SEEING ITS EFFECTS ON THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED INSIDE THE PRISON.

I HAD A CASUAL ENCOUNTER WITH A SENIOR PRISON OFFICIAL, WHO SEEMED TO RECOGNIZE ME.

HE GOT CLOSE TO ME, AND TOLD ME IN SECRET, HOW EMBARRASSED HE WAS ABOUT HIMSELF, AND THAT HE WAS EVEN THINKING ABOUT TAKING HIS LIFE.

THEN, HE TOLD ME THAT HIS FAMILY, HIS CHILDREN, KEPT CRITICIZING HIM.

AND ASKING HIM, WHY HE COLLABORATES WITH THIS SYSTEM, WITH THIS OPPRESSION.

AND HERE IS WHERE I HAD THE FIRST SPARK TO WRITE THE STORY.

BUT, THEN, OF COURSE, FOR MANY YEARS, PERHAPS OVER 15 YEARS, I WAS CONSTANTLY HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE SECURITY APPARATUS.

INTERROGATORS.

I WAS INTERROGATED MANY TIMES.

I WENT TO PRISON.

I WENT TO COURT.

AND I KEPT ASKING MYSELF, HOW DID THESE PEOPLE BRING THEMSELVES TO WORK WITH THE SYSTEM?

BUT, THIS QUESTION I HAD ABOUT THESE INDIVIDUALS, AND THOSE SPECIFIC SOCIAL CONDITIONS AFTER WOMEN, LIFE, FREEDOM PROTESTS, SORT OF CAME TOGETHER.

AND THEN, WHEN I CAME OUT OF PRISON, I WATCHED THESE TERRIFYING VIDEOS THAT THE PROTESTERS, THEMSELVES, HAD FILMED, OF THE OPPRESSION.

AND I NOTICED HOW INSPIRING THESE YOUNG PEOPLE -- AND ESPECIALLY THESE YOUNG WOMEN -- ARE.

AND SO, I DECIDED TO TELL A FAMILY STORY THAT CAN TAKE ON A WIDER DIMENSION.

AND I WAS VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY THE YOUNG GENERATION.

I AM VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY THE YOUNG GENERATION, IN IRAN.

>> STAY TUNED FOR THE REST OF MY INTERVIEW WITH MOHAMMAD RASOULOF.

AND IN THE MEANTIME, "THE SEED OF THE SACRED FIG" RELEASES IN THE UK ON FRIDAY.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.