>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": HE PLED GUILTY TO KILLING DORCHESTER TEEN LOUIS D. DORCHESTER TEEN LOUIS D. BROWN IN 1993, AND ON THIS SHOW, HE ONCE TOLD US HE OWES A DEBT TO LOUIS' FAMILY.

LOUIS' MOTHER, CLEMENTINA CHERY, WENT ON TO FOUND THE LOUIS D. BROWN PEACE INSTITUTE TO REDUCE SUCH VIOLENCE AND PAIN.

BUT CHARLES BOGUES NOW CONTENDS HE DID NOT KILL THE 15-YEAR-OLD.

HE'S TAKING HIS SIDE OF THE STORY PUBLIC, AND HE JOINS ME AHEAD.

THEN, LATER, THE CO-CHAIR OF THE TUFT'S CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL NURSES UNION AND A MOTHER, WHO SAYS THE HOSPITAL HAS BEEN A LIFELINE FOR HER THREE KIDS, JOIN PLEA ON THE PLANNED CLOSURE AND THEIR MANY CONCERNS.

♪♪ >> Braude: WE'VE TALKED A LOT OVER THE YEARS ABOUT LOUIS D. BROWN, A PROMISING KID FROM DORCHESTER, WHO DREAMED OF BEING THE COUNTRY'S FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT, ON HIS WAY TO A TEENS AGAINST GANG VIOLENCE CHRISTMAS PARTY IN 1993 WHEN HE WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY A STRAY BULLET IN A GANG SHOOTOUT.

HIS MOTHER, CLEMENTINA CHERY, WENT ON TO FOUND THE LOUIS D. BROWN PEACE INSTITUTE IN HIS HONOR AND HAS JOINED ME MANY TIMES TO TALK ABOUT THE WORK SHE'S DONE TO ADDRESS THE KIND OF VIOLENCE THAT KILLED HER SON.

BACK IN 2017, SHE CAME ON THE SHOW ALONGSIDE THE MAN WHO PLED GUILTY TO LOUIS' MURDER, CHARLES BOGUES, WHOSE 2012 PAROLE SHE WENT ON RECORD AS NOT OPPOSING, AFTER HE SPENT 16 YEARS IN PRISON.

>> I KNOW THAT I HAVE A DEBT THAT I OWE TO THE CHERY FAMILY AND TO SOCIETY.

>> Braude: BUT SINCE LONG BEFORE THAT APPEARANCE, BOGUES HAD BEEN TRYING TO REVERSE HIS GUILTY PLEA, ACCUSING BOSTON PROSECUTORS, AND EVEN HIS OWN LAWYER, OF TALKING HIM INTO TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE SHOOTING.

AND ON DECEMBER 30, HE RELEASED A NEARLY HOUR-LONG YouTube VIDEO IN WHICH HE LAYS OUT HIS CASE.

>> THIS IS MY STORY, AND IT NEEDS TO BE TOLD, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KILL LOUIS D. BROWN.

>> Braude: CHARLES BOGUES JOINS ME WITH THAT STORY NOW.

WE INVITED CLEMENTINA CHERY AS WELL, BUT SHE DECLINED FOR THE TIME BEING, WANTING TO ALLOW HIM TO SHARE HIS SIDE.

>> Braude: CHARLES, WELCOME.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IF YOU DID NOT KILL LOUIS D. BROWN, WHY DID YOU PLEAD GUILTY TO HIS MURDER?

>> WHEN I WAS DEALING WITH THE PROSECUTION OFFICE AND MY PREVIOUS ATTORNEY, THEY HAD TOLD ME BECAUSE I WAS INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTOUT, THAT A BULLET PROBABLY RICOCHETED, AND THAT'S WHAT KILLED LOUIS D. BROWN.

A RICOCHETED BULLET THAT THEY TOLD ME CAME FROM A GUN THAT I POSSESSED.

AND WHEN I WAS INCARCERATED, PEOPLE WOULD BE COMING IN AND TELLING ME, YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T KILL THAT KID.

AND I STARTED DIGGING INTO MY CASE, AND WITH THE HELP OF ONE OF THE JUDGES THAT ALLOWED ME DO TO DO BALLISTICAL TESTING, I WAS ABLE TO IN MY EYES PROVE THAT I DIDN'T KILL LOUIS D. BROWN.

THEY KNEW WHEN I PLED GUILTY THAT I WASN'T THE PERSON WHO KILLED LOUIS D. BROWN.

>> Braude: SO THAT I'M CLEAR, WHEN YOU DID PLEAD GUILTY, YOU DID BELIEVE YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS MURDER.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YES.

BECAUSE THEY TOLD ME THAT A BULLET RICOCHETED.

I WAS IN THE GUN FIGHT THAT OCCURRED THAT DAY.

SO I WANTED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT THEY TOLD ME THAT I DID.

>> Braude: SO YOU MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO THAT SOME OF YOUR FELLOW INMATES SAY YOU DIDN'T KILL LOUIS, AND THAT LED YOU TO THINKING.

YOU GOT SOME LEGAL TRAINING IN JAIL FROM A FELLOW INMATE WHO WAS A JAILHOUSE LAWYER.

YOU MADE A REQUEST FOR DOCUMENTS, SOME OF WHICH YOU GOT, AS YOU SAY, AFTER SOME ASSISTANCE FROM A JUDGE.

GIVE US A COUPLE EXAMPLES OF WHAT YOU WERE ABLE TO RECEIVE FROM THOSE DOCUMENT REQUESTS THAT CONVINCED YOU THAT, ONE, YOU'RE NOT THE GUY; AND, TWO, THAT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT PEOPLE, THE COPS AND THE D.A., KNEW YOU WERE NOT THE GUY?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING I RECEIVED WAS THE GRAND JURY MINUTES OF WHAT WAS SAID UNDER OATH TO THE GRAND JURY.

AND AT THE GRAND JURY HEARING, THE OFFICERS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THE CASE SAID THAT THERE WAS ONLY ONE .45 CALIBER FIREARM USED THAT DAY.

THEY SAID YOU WERE THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAD A .45 CALIBER, AND SO THE BILLION RICOCHETED AND KILLED LOUIS.

AND THEN WHEN I GOT THE DOCUMENTS FROM A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST, I WAS ABLE TO PRESENT THAT TO A JUDGE, AND THE JUDGE ALLOWED ME TO DO BALLISTICAL TESTING.

AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT .45s THAT WERE FIRED THAT DAY WHEN DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS.

AND THE SHELL CASINGS THAT THEY SAID -- THAT THEY ATTRIBUTED TO MY GUN, THEY DIDN'T MATCH THE BULLET THAT THEY RETRIEVED FROM LOUIS D. BROWN.

THAT WAS THE FIRST THING.

THE SECOND THING WAS THAT THEY HAD EYE WITNESSES THAT ACTUALLY SAW THE PERSON WHO SHOT AND KILLED LOUIS BROWN, AND THE PERSON DIDN'T LOOK LIKE ME AT ALL.

SO THOSE TWO FACTORS, PLUS, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTS WHEN THE DOCUMENTS ARE DATED AS OPPOSED TO WHEN THEY CONVENED THE GRAND JURY, YOU CAN TELL THEY HAD ALL OF THE EVIDENCE BEFORE THEY WENT TO THE GRAND JURY, AND THEY LIED ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: SO YOU WERE -- LET'S JUST BE CLEAR FOR PEOPLE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE STORY, EVEN THOUGH I'M SURE THEY HEARD OF LOUIS, AND I'M SURE IN THIS COMMUNITY THEY KNOW HIS MOTHER, THE INCREDIBLE WORK SHE HAS DONE IN THIS COMMUNITY -- YOU WERE THERE, YOU DID HAVE A .45, YOU DID DISCHARGE THAT WEAPON, YOU SHOT IT.

SO EXPLAIN GONE HOW YOU KNOW THAT WAS NOT THE WEAPON SINCE YOU DID FIRE IN THE AREA WHERE LOUIS WAS KILLED.

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WASN'T YOUR .45, SIMPLY BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT YOU CONTEND THE BULLETS DON'T MATCH THAT WEAPON; IS THAT CORRECT?

>> NO.

THERE IS MORE.

WHEN LOUIS WAS KILLED, I WAS AROUND THE CORNER FROM WHERE LOUIS WAS KILLED.

AND AT MY PLEA HEARING, I SAID IN OPEN COURT, I NEVER SAW LOUIS THAT DAY.

I WAS AROUND THE CORNER FROM WHERE HE WAS SHOT.

AND THEREIN LIES THE RICOCHET THEORY THAT THEY PRESENTED TO ME BECAUSE I TOLD THEM, WHEN THEY DEBRIEFED ME, THAT I WAS AROUND THE CORNER FROM WHERE LOUIS WAS KILLED.

I COULDN'T HAVE SHOT HIM.

AND THAT'S WHEN THEY TOLD ME A BULLET RICOCHETED.

AND WHEN YOU MATCH WHERE THEY DID FIND BALLISTICAL EVIDENCE THEY ATTRIBUTED TO ME, IT IS, IN FACT, AROUND THE CORNER FROM WHERE LOUIS WAS SHOT.

IF YOU TAKE WHERE I WAS, WHERE THE BALLISTICAL EVIDENCE WAS, THE FACT HE WAS AROUND THE CORNER, AND THE FACT THAT THE BALLISTICS DON'T MATCH, THEN IT IS EVIDENCE, ALONG WITH THE EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY THAT WAS PRECLUDED FROM THE GRAND JURY, THEY KNEW I DIDN'T KILL LOUIS.

>> Braude: IF IT IS SO CLEAR, CHARLES -- YOU FILED FOR A NEW TRIAL IN 2007, THE D.A -- HERE IS WHAT HE SAID IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MOTION: "THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ASPECT OF THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTING THAT ANYONEBUT CHARLES BOGUES WHO PLEADED GUILTY, SHOT AND KILLED LOUIS D.

BROWN."

IF THE EVIDENCE WAS SO CONVINCING, WHY DID HE SAY WHAT HE SAID?

>> BECAUSE IT WASN'T.

THAT'S WHY THEY NEVER GAVE ME AN EVIDENTIARY HEARING.

IF IT WAS SO CONVINCING, THEN WHY WOULD THE JUDGE ALLOW ME TO DO BALLISTICAL TESTOSTERONEING.

BALLISTICAL TESTING.

THE GRAND JURY SAID UNDER OATH THAT THERE WAS ONLY ONE .45 DISCHARGED AT THE SCENE, AND I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAD ONE.

THE BOSTON POLICE WHO TESTED THE BALLISTICS, ALONG WITH WHAT THE COURT GAVE ME, AND THEY BOTH CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION: THAT THERE WAS MULTIPLE .45s FIRED AT THE SCENE, THE BALLISTICS DIDN'T MATCH THE GUN THEY SAID I HAD, AND WITNESSES TESTIFIED, OR MADE STATEMENTS, THAT THEY SAW THE PERSON WHO KILLED LOUIS, AND THE PERSON DIDN'T MATCH ME PHYSICALLY OR IN CLOTHING.

>> Braude: CHARMS, DO YOUCHARMSCHARLES, DOYOU HAVE A THEORY WHY THE COPS CHOSE NOT TO SHARE EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE WITH YOU OR YOUR LAWYER?

WHY DID THEY DECIDE TO FINGER YOU AND NOT ANOTHER GUY?

>> BECAUSE I WAS THERE.

AND I PARTICIPATED IN THE GUN FIGHT.

AND THE GUN FIGHT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME, BUT ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT WAS GIVING THEM INFORMATION FINGERED ME IN THIS CASE.

>> Braude: SO, LOUIS, YOU SAID ON THAT LITTLE CLIP I PLAYED A MINUTE AGO, WHEN YOU WERE HERE IN CLEMENTINA CHERY, THAT YOU SPOKE AT THE EVENT WITH HER, RIGHT BEFORE THAT, THE MOTHER'S DAY MARCH FOR PEACE, WHICH FOCUSES ON FAMILIES WHO HAVE LOST PEOPLE THEY LOVE TO VIOLENCE EVERY MOTHER'S DAY -- YOU SAID YOU OWED A DEBT TO THE CHERY FAMILY.

IF YOU DIDN'T KILL LOUIS, AND YOU BELIEVED IN 2017 YOU DIDN'T KILL LOUIS, WHAT WAS THAT DEBT YOU DESCRIBED TO ME AND THE AUDIENCE?

>> BECAUSE I WAS IN MY COMMUNITY DOING THE WRONG THING.

SO THAT'S WHY I SAID I OWE A DEBT TO HER FAMILY, AND I ALSO OWE A DEBT TO THE COMMUNITY.

AND I'VE BEEN WORKING MY HARDEST, SINCE I WAS RELEASED, TO REPAY THAT DEBT.

I GO INTO THE PRISONS AND SPEAK TO GUYS.

I GO TO COMMUNITY CENTERS AND SPEAK.

SO THE DEBT -- BECAUSE I DIDN'T KILL LOUIS, THAT DOES NOT REDUCE THE DEBT THAT I OWED TO MY COMMUNITY AND SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

>> Braude: DID YOU SPEAK TO MS. CHERY BEFORE YOU POSTED THAT ALMOST HOUR-LONG VIDEO -- AND, BY THE WAY, IN IT YOU EXPLAIN DOCUMENT BY DOCUMENT, IN GREAT DETAIL, WHY YOU BELIEVE THE CASE IS CLEAR THAT YOU WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER SON'S MURDER -- DID YOU TALK TO HER BEFORE YOU RELEASED THAT VIDEO?

>> YES.

>> Braude: AND WHAT WAS HER REACTION?

>> I SHOWED SENT HER THE VIDEO BEFORE I RELEASED IT.

I WANTED HER TO SEE WHAT I WAS PRESENTING.

I HAD PRESENTED THESE DOCUMENTS TO MS. CHERY PRIOR TO THAT OVER THE YEARS, BUT UNTIL -- IT'S ALWAYS SOMEBODY ELSE TELLING YOUR STORY.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, MY MOTHER HAD PASSED AWAY IN 2020, FROM CANCER, AND I HAD ABOUT A FOUR-MONTH PERIOD TO REALLY TALK TO HER, AND TALK TO HER ABOUT LEGACY.

AND THE LEGACY THAT SHE LEFT.

AND WE TALKED ABOUT -- BECAUSE MY MOTHER ALSO KNEW ABOUT THIS INFORMATION.

AND I HAD TALKED TO HER ABOUT, YOU KNOW, JUST WANTING IT TO BE OUT THERE SO THAT BEING THE PERSON WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE, THAT WAS DEEMED RESPONSIBLE, FOR LOUIS BROWN'S DEATH, I DIDN'T WANT THAT TO BE MY LEGACY.

THAT WHEN PEOPLE LOOK UP MY NAME ON THE INTERNET, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES UP IS HE IS THE PERSON WHO KILLED LOUIS BROWN.

I WANTED TO DISPEL THAT.

>> Braude: WHILE YOU WERE STILL INCARCERATED, CLEMENTINA CHERY REACHED OUT TO YOUR MOTHER AND DEVELOPED A RELATIONSHIP THAT ULTIMATELY SHE DEVELOPED WITH YOU.

WHEN WE ASKED MS. CHERY TO JOIN US, SHE DECLINED AT THIS TIME.

SHE SENT US A STATEMENT AT THAT TIME "BASED ON THE VIDEO MR. BOEING'S PRESENTED, I'LL REACHING OUT TO THE NEW D.A., AND HOPING HE WILL MAKE CASES LIKE THIS IS A PRIORITY."

AT THE TIME YOU FILED YOUR MOTION IN 2007, SHE SAYS "MY FEAR IS HE DIDN'T DO IT, AND SHE WAS WONDERING WHY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT PEOPLE DIDN'T GO AFTER OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS THING.

CHARLES, DO YOU KNOW WHO KILLED LOUIS D. BROWN?

>> NO, I DO NOT.

>> Braude: IF SOME PEOPLE KNEW ENOUGH TO TELL YOU YOU WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE, DID THEY NOT KNOW WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE?

>> THERE ARE CERTAIN QUESTIONS THAT YOU DON'T ASK WHEN YOU'RE IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND IN THE STREET LIFE.

THE INITIAL INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED WITH LOUIS DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME.

I WASN'T THE TARGET; I WASN'T -- YOU KNOW, I WAS GOING THROUGH THE NEIGHBORHOOD TO MEET UP WITH A FRIEND.

I WAS SELLING DRUGS AND STUFF AT THE TIME, AND THAT'S WHY I HAD A GUN WITH ME.

AND THE SHOOTOUT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME.

AND THOSE GUYS WERE TARGETED, AND I DEPUTY DIDN'T GET SHOT.

SO AFTER THE WHOLE INCIDENT HAPPENED, I NEVER ASKED WHO IT WAS BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME.

I WASN'T INVOLVED WITH THAT.

>> Braude: IF A NEW D.A.

DECIDED TO TAKE LOOK AT THIS CASE, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HIS TEAM, PLUS THE POLICE, COULD FIND OUT 28 YEARS AFTER THE FACT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE, WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE, FOR LOUIS' MURDER IF IT WASN'T YOU?

>> I'M NOT SURE.

THEY WOULD HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, TALK TO THEIR SOURCES AND EVERYTHING TO DETERMINE THAT.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO -- >> AND I NEVER ASKED.

THOSE PEOPLE, WHEN THEY COME AND TELL YOU SOMETHING, YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.

BUT AS I STARTED DIGGING DEEPER, THE ROADBLOCK THAT WAS SET UP BEFORE ME, I KIND OF KNEW I WAS ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

>> Braude: I NEVER MET LOUIS, BUT THROUGH HIS MOTHER, I LEARNED A LOT ABOUT HIM.

HE WAS AN INCREDIBLE YOUNG MAN.

YOU SAID AT ONE POINT YOU HOPED THAT YOUR SON GREW UP TO BE LIKE LOUIS, THAT YOU HOPED TO PUSH HIM IN THE DIRECTION OF GROWING UP TO BE LIKE LOUIS D. BROWN WAS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN.

DO YOU STILL FEEL THAT WAY?

>> YES.

HE WAS, BY ALL ACCOUNTS -- LOUIS WAS AN INCREDIBLE YOUNG MAN.

MY SON IS ALSO A VERY GIFTED AND INCREDIBLE YOUNG MAN.

OUR COMMUNITY -- FOR HIM TO GROW UP WITHOUT A FATHER IN THIS LIFE PHYSICALLY, AND, YOU KNEW, GROWING UP BETWEEN HIS MOTHER AND MY MOTHER -- THE WOMEN IN MY FAMILY DID A TREMENDOUS JOB.

HE IS 32 YEARS OLD.

NEVER BEEN IN HANDCUFFS.

AND THAT'S A BLESSING TO ME.

>> Braude: CHARLES, WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

WE HOPE TO SPEAK TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY ABOUT THIS.

WE HOPE TO SPEAK TO CLEMENTINA CHERY ABOUT IT.

WE WILL STAY ON THIS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR GIVING US SOME TIME TONIGHT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: ABOUT 100 PARENTS AND TUFT'S CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL STAFF GATHERED OUTSIDE THE FACILITY SATURDAY TO PROTEST ITS PLANNED CLOSURE.

THE HOSPITAL ANNOUNCED THE MOVE LAST MONTH, SAYING KIDS SPECIALIZED PEDIATRIC OUTPATIENT CARE, DAY SURGERY, AND THE NEONATAL I.C.U.

WOULD REMAIN AT TUFT'S, BUT ANY KIDS WHO REQUIRE INPATIENT CARE WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO BOSTON CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL STARTING IN JULY, IF STATE HEALTH OFFICIALS APPROVE.

TUFT'S EXECUTIVES SAY THE CHANGE WOULD LET THEM CONVERT THE 41 BEDS IN THE CHILDREN'S UNIT TO ADULT CARE, NOTING THEY'VE BEEN TURNING AWAY DOZENS OF SERIOUSLY SICK ADULT PATIENTS EACH DAY, WHILE ITS PEDIATRIC INPATIENT UNIT IS USUALLY ONLY HALF FULL.

BUT MANY PARENTS AND STAFF SAY THE SWITCH IS NOWHERE NEAR SO SIMPLE, AND AS OF THIS TAPING, CLOSE TO 64,000 PEOPLE HAD SIGNED A PETITION CALLING TO SAVE TUFT'S CHILDREN'S.

JOINING ME ARE MARY HAVLICEK CORNACCHIA, CO-CHAIR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS NURSES ASSOCIATION UNION AT TUFT'S; AMANDA CROWLEY, A PARENT OF THREE CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN TREATED AT THE HOSPITAL AND CO-FOUNDER OF MENDING MINDS FOUNDATION, AIMED AT FIGURING OUT WHY AND HOW YOUNG KIDS DEVELOP PSYCHIATRIC DISEASE.

WE ALSO INVITED TUFT'S C.E.O.

DR. MIKE TARNOFF TO JOIN US.

HE WAS UNABLE TO DO SO TODAY BUT INDICATED HE MIGHT IN THE COMING DAYS, AND A SPOKESPERSON SENT A STATEMENT THAT READS, IN PART: "OUR INTENT IS TO ENSURE THAT CHILDREN WILL BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SEE THEIR SAME DOCTOR/CARE TEAM IN THE SAME CLINIC WITH THEIR CURRENT INSURANCE.

WE REMAIN COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING OUR COMMUNISTS AND FAMILIES WITH THE SAME HIGH QUALITY, COMPASSIONATE CARE THEY HAVE COME TO EXPECT AND DESERVE."

>> Braude: AMANDA AND MARY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: MARY, CAN I START WITH YOU?

WHAT CONCERNS YOU MOST ABOUT THIS DECISION?

>> WE'RE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR FAMILIES.

TUFT'S SERVES AN UNDERSERVED POPULATION.

WE ACCEPT ALL KINDS OF INSURANCES AND EVEN NO INSURANCE, AND WE DON'T TURN AWAY CHILDREN.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE AT CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL.

THEY ARE SELECTIVE IN THE TYPE OF PATIENTS THAT THEY DO CARE FOR.

AND WE'RE JUST WORRIED THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WE SERVE IN OUR COMMUNITY WILL FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS.

>> Braude: AMANDA, I KNOW FOR YOU IT IS VERY, VERY PERSONAL.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHY THIS MATTERS SO MUCH TO YOU?

>> YES.

THIS IS A LIFELINE, A CRUCIAL LIFELINE, TO SO MANY FAMILIES LIKE MINE.

WE WERE COMPLETELY BLINDSIDED BY THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.

AND, HONESTLY, WE'RE SCARED.

AND WE FEEL ABANDONED.

WE ARE DEPENDENT ON TUFT'S FOR VERY SPECIALIZED CARE FOR VERY COMPLEX KIDS.

TUFT'S IS KNOWN FOR HAVING TEAMS THAT WORK REALLY WELL TOGETHER AND TREAT VERY COMPLEX ILLNESSES.

AND FOR MY KIDS, WHO HAVE A DIAGNOSIS OF PANDA, WHICH IS PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS ASSOCIATED WITH STREP, THIS IS A MEDICAL HOME FOR THIS CONDITION.

>> Braude: AND CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, DOES NOT PROVIDE THE IMMUNE THERAPY FOR PANDA'S THAT TUFT'S DOES.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> Braude: WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU, ASSUME THANK YOU GO AHEAD WITH THE SHUTDOWN OF THE BEDS?

WHAT DO THEY SAY YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN SHOULD DO?

>> WE HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW.

WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF ANSWERS.

THAT'S WHERE WE'RE STUCK RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE, UM -- THIS IS TERRIBLE TIMING.

WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC.

FAMILIES ARE IN, YOU KNOW, EXTREME CRISIS ALREADY.

AND THEN TO LOSE ACCESS TO CRITICAL CARE IS JUST UNFATHOMABLE, UNCONSCIONABLE.

>> Braude: AMANDA, IF I COULD STAY WITH YOU FOR A SECOND -- I READ ALL THREE OF YOUR CHILDREN SUFFER FROM PANDA'S, AND YOUR MIDDLE CHILD IN PARTICULAR, AND IT IS HARD TO ASK THIS QUESTION, BUT WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR MIDDLE SON IF THIS MOVE HAPPENS AND THERE IS NOT REPLACEMENT THERAPY?

>> WELL, LIKE MY SON AND HUNDREDS OF OTHER KIDS WHO ARE DIAGNOSED WITH PANDA'S, BUT OTHER IMMUNE DEFICIENCIES, AND OTHER AUTOIMMUNE CONDITIONS THAT DEPEND ON THIS SPECIALIZED CARE, WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER PLACE TO GO.

LESS THAN FIVE MONTHS GIVES US NO TIME TO FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO HAVE OUR CHILDREN TREATED.

>> Braude: AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOUR KID IF THE TREATMENT WAS NOT AVAILABLE?

>> WE -- I DON'T KNOW.

I'M SCARED.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, MARY, YOU MENTIONED THE INSURANCE THING, AND I'M SURE YOU READ THE QUOTES, OR HEARD THE QUOTES, FROM DR. CHURCHWELL, WHO RUNS BOSTON'S CHILDREN'S, WHO SAYS IF THERE ARE GAPS IN COVERAGE, WE'LL WORK TO COVER THOSE CHILDREN AS WE ALWAYS DO.

AND HE GOES ON LIKE THAT.

IT WAS IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE."

DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THEM OR YOU'RE NOT BUYING IT, OR WHAT?

>> WE HAVE TRUE CONCERNS, JIM, AND MOSTLY BECAUSE WE SEE THE CHILDREN THAT CHILDREN'S TURNS AWAY.

WE TREAT THEM IN OUR EMERGENCY ROOMS.

WE ADMIT THEM TO OUR INPATIENT FACILITIES.

YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW WE'RE EXPERIENCING A DRAMATIC PEDIATRIC MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

WE ADMIT THOSE CHILDREN, AND WE CARE FOR THEM.

IT IS NOT A PSYCHIATRIC FACILITY, BUT WE DON'T TURN THEM AWAY AND WE DON'T MAKE THEM LANGUISH IN EMERGENCY ROOMS, WAITING FOR BEDS.

WE TAKE THEM IN.

AND THAT'S A HUGE CONCERN.

IT'S A BIG PROBLEM RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: MARY, IF THEY -- WHEN PEOPLE -- ASSUMING THAT TUFT'S CHILDREN'S DOES MAKE THIS CHANGE AND THEY ARE TURNED AWAY FROM BOSTON CHILDREN'S HOSPITALS, AS YOU SUGGEST, AND WE'LL REACH OUT TO THEM AND HEAR FROM THEM AS WELL -- >> SURE.

>> Braude: -- WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE KIDS?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, I KNOW THAT MASS GENERAL HAS A PEDIATRIC FACILITY, AND SO DOES BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER.

BUT WE -- WE TAKE ON PATIENTS FROM THOSE FACILITIES, ALSO.

WE'RE A FEEDING HOSPITAL FROM LAWRENCE AND LOWELL.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH BEDS AROUND, AND WE PROVIDE A RESOURCE TO A LARGE NUMBER.

>> Braude: MARY, I SAID IN THE INTRODUCTION OF BOTH YOU AND AMANDA, THAT THE HOSPITAL, TUFT'S, IS SAYING WE DON'T FILL NEARLY ALL OF THE CHILDREN'S INPATIENT BEDS, AND WE HAVE A DEMAND THAT FAR EXCEEDS THE NUMBER OF ADULT BEDS.

IS THAT TRUE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, ADMINISTRATION WORKS LARGELY IN THE LAW OF AVERAGES.

UP THROUGH LAST WEEK, WE HAVE BEEN FULL ON THE PEDIATRIC SIDE.

WE WERE SHORT TWO PATIENTS ON FRIDAY.

AND OUR PEDIATRIC STAFF HAS BEEN PUTTING IN OVERTIME TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF THIS CENSUS ON OUR PEDIATRIC SIDE.

>> Braude: SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS BEHIND THIS, MARY?

YOU WORK THERE.

>> I DO WORK THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, JIM, AS A UNION, WE MEET WITH ADMINISTRATION ON A MONTHLY BASIS, AND WE'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CENSUS OVER THE LAST YEARS.

BUT THIS CLOSURE WAS NEVER, NEVER TABLED.

SO IT WAS A BLINDSIDED MOVE.

>> Braude: WHY ARE THEY DOING IT?

I'M TRYING TO ASCERTAIN WHY ARE THEY DOING IT, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WE OFFER AN AWFUL LOT OF RESOURCES, AND I THINK THAT THE HOSPITAL IS JUST NOT FEELING LIKE THEY SEE ENOUGH VOLUME IN EVERY KIND OF RESOURCE THAT WE OFFER, THAT MAKES IT A MARKETABLE AND MANAGEABLE THING TO MAINTAIN.

>> Braude: CAN I TRANSLATE THAT?

ARE YOU SAYING THEY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE OF THE BOTTOM LINE?

I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH -- >> IT FEELS LIKE THEY'RE PUTTING DOLLAR SIGNS ON CHILDREN, YES.

>> Braude: MARY, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, WHAT DONORS -- I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH, JUST WHAT I READ AND SPEAKING TO YOU, AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET TO SPEAK TO DR. TARNOFF SOON -- THEY'RE NOT CLOSING OUTPATIENT SERVICES, THEY'RE NOT CLOSING THE NEWBORN I.C.U., AND IF MONEY WAS THE PRIMARY ISSUE, WHY WOULD THEY NOT BE CLOSING THOSE?

>> HERE IS OUR FEAR, JIM: THESE PHYSICIANS THAT WERE ALSO BLINDSIDED -- A NUMBER OF THEM WERE -- THE HOSPITAL IS EXPECTING THAT IT IS GOING TO BE A SMOOTH AND COLLABORATIVE TRANSITION TO CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE.

>> Braude: WHY?

>> BECAUSE PHYSICIANS -- THERE ARE PHYSICIANS THAT ARE CHOOSING NOT TO GO TO CHILDREN'S.

THEY'RE CHOOSING TO INTERVIEW AT OTHER FACILITIES, OR EVEN MOVING AWAY FROM THE AREA.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT AMANDA MENTIONED, WE HAVE CRITICAL TEAMS THAT ARE RESOURCES TO THESE FAMILIES.

MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE CARE OF THESE CHILDREN, AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY, LET'S JUST POP THEM IN THE CAR AND DRIVE THEM TO CHILDREN'S ON JULY 1st.

AND THE HOSPITAL WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY THOUGHT THIS OUT, IT IS GOING TO BE A PROCESS.

IT IS NOT JUST GOING TO BE A DROPOFF OR DRIVEBY.

BUT THE FACT IS THEY'RE COUNTING ON THINGS HAPPENING THAT JUST DON'T LOOK LIKE THEY'RE FALLING INTO PLACE IN THE MANNER THAT THEY THINK THAT IT WILL.

>> Braude: AMANDA, HOW -- ALMOST EVERY QUESTION I'M ASKING YOU I HESITATE BECAUSE I HAVE KIDS, TOO, AND I CAN TELL BY THE LOOK ON YOUR FACE AND YOUR VOICE WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU -- DO YOU HAVE HOPE THAT THIS CAN BE RESOLVED?

I MEAN, YOU PUT A LOT OF TRUST IN TUFT'S IN THE PAST?

DO YOU HAVE ANY TRUST GOING FORWARD THAT THEY'LL LISTEN TO YOU AND THE 64,000 PEOPLE WHO SIGNED THE PETITION, AND MARY, AND REVISIT THIS?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THIS.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO GET OUR VOICES HEARD.

I'M WILLING TO MEET WITH WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO MEET.

I REPRESENT -- I'M HERE ON BEHALF OF THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES FROM÷ TUFT'S.

I MEAN, THERE ARE FAMILIES WHO DON'T HAVE A VOICE HERE RIGHT NOW.

I WAS SPEAKING TO A MOM WHO HAS 15 SPECIALISTS FOR HER CHILD AND WORKS TWO JOBS, AS A SINGLE MOM.

I MEAN, HOW IS THIS GOING TO HAPPEN?

HOW ARE WE GOING TO TRANSFER, YOU KNOW -- OUR CASES ARE COMPLEX ENOUGH.

HOW IS SOMEBODY WITH 15 SPECIALISTS GOING TO MAKE THIS MOVE SEAMLESSLY?

IT IS JUST IMPOSSIBLE.

AND THE TIMELINE IS SO SHORT.

IT JUST HAPPENED SO QUICKLY AND UNEXPECTANTLY.

>> Braude: LET ME JUST SAY, CONSIDERING THE POTENTIAL HUMAN COST HERE, I HOPE DR. TARNOFF WILL SEE FIT TO JOIN US HERE, AND DR. CHURCHWELL AS WELL, AND I HOPE THEY SEE FIT TWO MEET WITH YOU AND OTHERs.

I THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TELLING YOUR STORY, AND I WISH YOU A LOT OF LUCK, MARY AND AMANDA.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW WHEN I'LL BE JOINED BY ALL THREE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES FOR MASSACHUSETTS ATTORNEY GENERAL: FORMER BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR ANDREA CAMPBELL, FORMER NOMINEE FOR LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR QUENTIN PALFREY, AND ATTORNEY SHANNON LISS-RIORDAN.

AND MARK YOUR CALENDARS, EXPECT THE ONE WEEK FROM TODAY PARIS ALSTON AND JEREMY SIEGEL TAKE OVER THE MIC ON AN ALL-NEW GBH "MORNING EDITION."

FOCUSING ON EMERGING VOICES, DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES, DEPTH AND CONTENT, THEY'LL GET YOUR MORNING GOING IN A WHOLE NEW WAY.

IT ALL STARTS MONDAY AT 5:00 A.M. ON GBH 89.7 OR STREAMING ONLINE AND IN THE GBH NEWS APP.

YOU CAN ALSO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT PARIS AND JEREMY AND THE SHOW BEFORE THE BIG DAY AT gbhnews.org/morning- edition.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪