Welcome back, Randy Richardville former Senate Republican leader, is in the queue.

And our lead stories the governor's budget hampered by the president's tariffs and a new candidate for governor, chris Swanson.

Around the table, Craig Mauger, Lauren Gibbons and Joey Cappelletti.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out.

off the record production of Off the Record as made possible in part by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to Studio C. The governor's budget is out with a thud or what?

I think there's a lot of questions.

I mean, just a lot of questions.

Yeah, I would agree.

It's remains to be seen.

Yeah, a lot of questions.

Will they even pass it by the deadline?

Take a look at what she proposed.

The good news for educators and parents, the governor wants to increase state aid to every school kid by $392 per pupil for a grand total of $10,000 per pupil.

The bad news for Democrats, however, is President Trump has total control over 42% of the federal dollars that flow into Michigan's coffers.

And the Democrats might argue, therefore, the per pupil increase is not a gimme.

We're made painfully aware of what disruptions to federal funding look like over the past week with the federal freeze.

The state education budget, including free meals for schoolkids, is predicate on $2.3 billion from the feds.

The Senate Democrat asked the budget director therefore.

What would we do to make up that $2.3 billion in cuts.

We're talking special education funding, school meals for all, Title one school funding for our most at risk students, as well as protections in Title nine, which has been something that enforcement of protecting women and sports.

The news and potential cuts in orders have caused a lot of chaos in state government.

You know, we're working with the cabinet to and our legal counsel to understan what proposed cuts could mean.

We don't have a crystal ball.

The state does have over $ billion in its rainy day fund.

However, the deputy state budget director rules out using that the notion of us being able to backstop, whether it's education or some of the other, you know, proposed cuts from the federal level is is not really an option.

Some difficult decisions will have to be made on what programs and services would need to be impacted.

And what he's really saying is that current state programs would have to be cu if the federal cuts materialize.

Meanwhile, the Republican chair of the House Budget Committee checks in on all these Democratic budget fears.

Dismisses them this way.

It's putting noise in the roo that's unnecessary.

All right.

The president hasn't come out.

We haven't gotte any notice of any of our funding is going to be cut.

I don't think that the president or the federal government wants to cu cut people off at their knees.

I mean, they have the same concerns that we do here at the state level.

We want to make sure that our taxpayers are getting good value for their tax dollars.

So these state lawmakers go to work on a proposed $80 billion state budget that may have more money for school kids, but the Democrats are likely to warn school districts don't spend it yet.

Well, the Republican chairwoman says this honestly, I think it was unnecessary hot air.

Ooh, unnecessary hot air.

Well, what do you make of that?

What What a statement.

But a yes.

Yeah, I think it's as we already said, a lot has to be hammered out.

This is a very different dynamic.

We have a Republican House, a Democratic Senate, and obviously a Democratic administration whose priorities are probably a lot different than Speaker Halls.

So there's there's going to b a lot of a lot of back and forth as specially when it comes to some of these kitchen table items like schools, road funding is going to be a big fight this year.

It seems to be.

So a lot of question marks.

Yeah.

I mean, kitchen table issue seems to be the kind of hot phrase nowadays after that election, you know, lowering costs, all these things.

I think the real question is each party kind of has a different way of getting there.

We're still waiting on, you know, the governor's road funding plan.

So I still think there' there's big questions out there that we'll see you know, these next few weeks.

Yeah.

I mean, last month, the governor stood before a crowd of the Detroit Auto show and said the to two biggest obstacles facing this state road funding cliff and economic development having incentives to chase jobs.

$83.5 billion budget rolled out by her administration today.

You look through this document, road funding is held steady, nothing done on roads.

They say that plan is going to come down in the future.

We're going to see that next week maybe.

On economic development.

You look at her main jobs program, SOAR, next year how much funding for SOAR $200.

They say they're goin to rely on pass money for SOAR.

So these two question marks, how do we chase jobs in Michigan in a state that's losing population and needs to attract jobs unanswered?

Other question how do we fi our crumbling roads unanswered?

That's going to be wha the rest of the year is about.

Isn't SOAR on life support?

Politically, you mean amon the people in the legislature?

It seems that way.

It seems like there's a lot of opposition to SOAR.

The House speaker wants to shift the money to roads.

There are Democrat wanting to overhaul the program, but the governor has said over and over again that the state needs this jobs program and in this budget proposal, she's not investing in it.

So I don't know.

I think the timing is also a little awkward.

Right.

You know, we're seeing the budget.

We saw the auto show speech before the state of the state this year.

And usually she has the state of the state to set an array of priorities for the year and really, you know, lay out the concep before getting into the numbers.

And now we're getting it backwards.

I think also to Craig's point about economic development is really interesting because all we've heard these past few years is economic development, economic development.

And now the governor is really entering these final two years legacy defining kind of times.

And she this kind of crown jewel is just she's not addressing it.

And so it's I think, going to be interesting to see if economic development is still this priority.

Are we making too much of the Trump 42% figure in the budget being at risk?

I think it's very hard to predict.

I mean, he has been an unpredictable president.

I mean, if you're writing the budget, aren't you doing that with your eye over your shoulder, you're writing the budget and you want to have money to actually spend and do your programs, you have to kind of assum the money is going to be there.

Because if it's not there, you're cutting everything.

You're basically shredding all your priorities and putting the state on life support.

So, I mean, you have to kind of assume maybe they have some document that's at the side that says here is the worst case scenario of what we're going to do, put out the worst case scenario budget as a selling point to make sure you don't get the cut going to get hit by the Republicans saying, oh, they want to cut this, this and this.

I mean, there's a risk there.

I think there's a lot of wait and see at this point from the Trump administration.

There was a lot of confusion when the federal funding freeze happens.

Now it's going through the courts.

I think a lot of these things are just going to be facing legal challenges at the federal level, but they have to be thinking i their mind a lot of things that we're pretty much guaranteed, regardless of administration at the federal level might be on the chopping block.

So there's there's got to be some sort of planning behind the scenes.

And it gets to one of the other themes that everyone in the capital is talking about.

Why is the governor not goin after President Trump stronger?

That's one of the things you talk to Democrats.

This is what they'r whispering about in the capital and what you're talking about.

Let's put out a budget proposal that shows here's what Trump's going to do to Michigan if he cuts all this funding that would go against this approach of, hey, we're working with the Trump administration.

Do you suppose the governor thought when the fire were in California and her buddy Newsom has a no relationship with the with the president?

Okay.

She's thinking, I don't want that to happen in Michigan.

That's why she's trying to lay the groundwork for a working relationship.

I don't understand, though, you think for the next two years that's going to be possible?

You think for the next two years you're avoid stepping on the presidents foot?

Yes.

It feels like I mean, we're talking about tariffs that could absolutely cripple the Michigan economy.

And you think you're just not going to upset the president?

I think you look at she acknowledged we're goin to have areas of disagreement, but if you have a good working relationship, you can disagree and still go on and do positive work.

What does that do?

I mean, he's still pretty much I mean, I know they delayed the tariffs for another month but but I mean, she warned him and said you shouldn't impose these tariffs.

And it didn't really seem to have much of an impact.

Do you guys think she ought to just be taking on Mr. Trump?

I don't know.

I mean I would posit that the tariffs are one of the reasons that maybe Governor Whitmer is not going as har against Trump as she could be on certain issues.

There are probably a host of others.

But, you know, that's one area that really could impact Michigan in a vastly disproportionate way to the rest of the country.

And not only the tariffs.

There is this X factor of this massive economic development project in Mundy Township that the Whitmer administration seems to be quietly their number one priority.

And who gets to decide if that happens or not?

President Trump And I think once that's resolved, we'll see if this dynamic changes.

Maybe I'm suggesting it might.

We'll see.

Well, it's going to be interesting.

One thing that I think keep an eye on as well is the National Governors Association board meeting is later this month.

Governo Stephens said that the governor will be there potentia for a also, I think, you know, the governor meeting wit or speaking with the president, we had a bet around the table.

There's going to be a picture with Donald Trump and Gretche Whitmer.

Take this to the bank.

Oh, boy.

That's insider.

Just a picture of them near each other.

Well, no, no, no.

You know, the Oval Office, you had the whole nine yards.

If we're going to do it, let's do it right.

Speaking about doing it, Chris Swanson, goodness gracious.

He surprised everybody by announcing for governor.

Well, I don't know if there was that much of a surprise.

It was none.

He's been thinking about it for five years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

S what do you make of that, Joey?

Yeah, I mean, he's got energy, that's for sure.

And I think a lot of people like him.

He's a wild card candidate.

You know, a lot of the people that are expected to enter this race are kind of career politicians, maybe not career, but they're politicians, you know, secretary of state, potentially the lieutenant governor.

And then you have this kind o wild card candidate, which is, as we've seen with Trump, kind of in right now.

The biggest question I think for Swanson is if he's really well known in his county and political circles, can he scale that?

Can he fundraise to actually run a statewide race?

Two things that I think, you know, people should consider here and things to watch.

One, everyone in Genesee County that we have talked to at the news, the people that have knowledge of his background have said that he was previously pro-life and in a Democratic primary that would not fly today.

He's acknowledged that.

Has he publicly acknowledged it?

He talks.

I read a piece, I can't remember where it was now that he told somebody from right to life that he was pro-life.

Yeah, that was a yeah, we wrote it.

Yes, we wrote a piece yesterda where our former Right to Life director said that he told her that he was pro-life.

At one point he put out a statement last night saying he's pro-choice.

So he is going to have to figure this out at some point and explain what was going on previously and what is happening now and what changed, because that is one of the defining issue for Democratic voters right now.

I mean, there's little to no way around that in a Democratic primary.

I think the other thing to watch here is Secretary of State Benson has an advantage that her views, what she's been doing, seems to align with wher Democratic primary voters are.

I think the concern for he would be if Democrats continue to tank in these national polls and there is a sign that voter in the middle are just unhappy with the Democratic Party and where it's been.

Will there be some chang from Democratic primary voters?

Say we want something new?

And I think if they decide, hey, we want something new, a new approach, I think that's where Swanson might have a chance.

If there is some turn, that'd be a big turn though.

Already picked up one of Mike Duggan's lines.

I'm not going to say anything bad about my opponents, Huh?

Mike Duggan started that.

And now here's Swanson.

You know what?

I think that resonates with people.

Nobody needs to say anything bad about their opponent.

I mean, you can have a group that you are connected with.

Precisely.

Yeah, I understand it, but your hands can be clean.

Yeah, well, okay.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Does that not resonate with voters today?

Yeah, I think that's true.

And then I think that, you know, his his different background, his law enforcement background could be an avenue that brings in a different kind of voter.

You know, as Craig was mentioning, people who might be dissatisfie with the status quo, you know, there could be a lane, you know whether it's a big enough lane to take over the rest of the primary, tha that still remains to be seen, I think.

And we can talk about this later as well for independents.

But I think right no it's very sexy to be this down the middle candidate you know, independent candidate.

I wonder, as the Trump administration continues as these divisive comments continue coming out, if that won't b and this resistance might grow.

And I think this kind of idea of, you know, really the voters selected Trump, I think some Democrats are going to really form themselves as the resistance.

And you've got to win a primary, though.

I mean, this idea of an independent candidate is maybe great in a general election, but he's got to win a primary where we just saw hundreds of people on the Capitol lawn that were protesting Donald Trump and they were not seeking someone, Hey, let's be more moderate toward Trump.

That was not the message that they were sending.

Yeah it's a tough needle to thread.

How do you do that and get there?

Let's talk about Randy Richardville and see what his views and all this stuff is back.

Senator, good t have you back on off the record, Let's let's start with an easy question.

When you and I were chatting the other day, you described yourself as an independent Republican, not a Republican independent.

Splain.

And it was a little confusing.

So it my my understanding that in all the years that I've been involved in the state of Michigan is that we are divided about this way, about 30% Republican, about 30% Democrat, and about 40% in the middle.

And you can play off of that in different districts.

But for the for the most part, that's that's pretty true at this point in time.

The party seems to be speaking for a whole lot of people on the far right or on the far left.

I am a Republican through and through.

I've been elected as a Republican.

I've been a Republican spokesperson.

I've been the national Republican legislator of the year.

I am totally Republican conservative.

However, I don't want the party speaking for me.

I don't want the president speaking for me.

I don't like the way they tal to people that I disagree with, who I respect.

Well, the.

So why are you a Republican?

Because I believe in the principles that some of the other people also believe in.

I just don't believe in the way that they talk about it.

And you believe so much that you voted for Mr. Trump.

That's right.

I did.

You said you held your nose.

I did.

I did.

It's difficult because I don't like the way that he talks to people that don't agree with him.

I don't like it.

Sometimes it feels like he' still on that Apprentice show.

He's trying to fire somebody.

You know, he's got that attitude of me or the highway kind of thing, and maybe we need some strength in that office.

But I just don't like that, you know, You got y'all.

We're talking to a few minutes ago about not saying anything bad about your opponent.

He not only say things bad about the opponent, he he talks him down and say things about their character and and other kinds of things.

And that's not a spokesperson for my beliefs, who's a Republican in this day and age that can win Michigan statewide.

Who's not Donald Trump?

Well, I've said for the last few year that I thought that Aric Nesbitt was the up and coming Republican and that someday he should run for governor.

He and I were both floor leaders in the House of Representatives.

He went over to the Senate and won an easy election as a leader in the Senate.

He's he's affable, he's intelligent.

He understands retail politics.

He knows how to raise money.

He's a he's a he's a viable candidate.

And I always thought that he would be.

Is he your candidate?

No, no, no.

There's an endorsement.

I haven't decided yet.

I' taking a good look at the field.

The field isn't even complete.

Mike Cox has been around for a while.

He was the attorney general.

He beat Gary Peters statewide.

He's he's raised in or at least he's put $1,000,000 into his his campaign.

He knows he can win statewide.

He's an intelligent man.

He understands the game pretty well.

His wife was the chair of the party.

He's got to be considered a viable candidate.

And then you've got a number of other people that some of them are retreads, people like Pete Hoekstra, who but he's got congressional experience.

I worked with him and Herman Miller 20, 30 years ago.

He's a very respectable, intelligent man.

I endorsed him back when Rick Snyder won actually in that primary.

I was I was in his camp.

Is he suggesting that he's going to run for governor?

But he's had a list of Has he talked to you about this?

Not to me.

Not to me.

And who's telling you he might run?

I read it in one of the one of the local newspapers here.

You can't believe that.

Well, I know.

I know what it was one of your articles that certainly you can't believe it.

Right.

Right.

Lauren's got a question.

How does how does Mike Duggan, an independent candidate, factor into this Does he pull from Republicans?

Does he pull from Democrats?

How does that play out?

You know, ten years ago when it was rumored that Gretchen and I might run together, you know, we we had those conversations.

Some of them were on on television or on on the radio, and people knew that we had a lot of respect for each other because we were looking at the landscape saying, you know, people are tired of the fighting and the polarization.

This is ten years ago and it's gotten nothing but worse since then.

So the way I see it, you've got a Republican, a group of Republican are going to run for that 30%.

You got a group of Democrats.

If you're run for the 30%, they're going to try to convince the base that they are the furthest right.

These are going to try to couldn't convince the bas that they're the furthest left.

By doing that, you have ostracize the biggest group of them all.

Both, I think both sides are trying to be farther away from the middle.

And the middle, I think is saying I'm kind of tired of being the dog wagged by these little tails.

It's time that we brought a voice up and drew people from both parties so that we can put a mixture of people together.

They can make better decisions overall.

And Mike Duggan has a ten year record at the city of Detroit in doing that, the grand bargain, putting Detroit out of bankruptcy, some of the things he's done with economic development and working with people of different rac creeds, colors and backgrounds.

Mike showing that he can do that.

So I think that because of the polarization, a lot of people are saying, you know, I'm tired of the far right.

I'm tired of the far left.

I'm going to look for somebody who can bring us together instead of continuing to separate us.

And Mike might be that guy.

I've had conversations with him.

He just might be that guy.

What piece of evidence d you have that that would work?

I mean, you've got a theory that this could work.

Well, again, point to something That's that's a great question, and I have an equally great answer.

He if you had told me ten years or so ago that he was going to run for a mayor of Detroit as a short white guy from the health care system and by the way, he's going to write a run as a write in candidate.

I laughed at you, but he did it.

The people of Detroit said, I'm going to go in and remember Mike Duggan's name, and they wrote down his name.

That's an unheard of kind of thing, likely unheard of that an independent can win votes.

Tens of thousands of people wrote down his name.

This is a race for governor with millions of people.

Well, Bill Clinton was the governor of a small state called Arkansas, and he took over the presidency with the same principles that he won that those races with.

I think Mike has a tendency as a chance to do the same thing statewide.

And, you know I saw a poll recently that said 63% of the people would seriously consider this is Michigan voters would seriously consider voting for an independent.

Do you want to go back to the Republican field quickly, do you think at all?

It's a political liability that the bench for the Republicans in Michigan seems to be older white men?

Because in Michigan, women have lately.

I mean, Nessel, Benson and Whitmer, all the top offices, our new U.S. senator is woman.

Do you think that it all could be a political liability going forward?

You know, maybe so, But I think that the electorat in Michigan especially is less gender oriented in the making that decision than they are principles.

And looking at what the person believes, what the person stands for and how they present that message, I don't think it's a liability to be a white an older white male.

I kind of like those guys or, you know, somebody fro a different race, color, gender.

I really don't think that's a a main factor.

Sure, it's going to contribute a little bit, but I don't think a lot.

I think women have shown over the last 30, 40 years that they deserve to be at the table.

You know, there might be a time when when some people didn't think that.

But I think they've they've earned it and they've they've shown that they can do the job really well.

And I don't think there's that much of a difference anymore.

Sort with the premise of your argument is right that independents are fed up.

Have you gone to Aric Nesbitt your former colleague, and said, here's what you need to do to be attractive to them?

And he's going to tell you, Randy, Randiy, I' running in a Republican primary.

Hello?

Yeah, we've not had that conversation yet.

He texted me last week.

He called somebody.

He was looking for some support from both, both, you know, a endorsement and and some money.

And they said, well, I'm not going to contribute or endorse you until I find out if Randy is running for governor.

So he texted me that message and said, you know, where are you with this?

And I told him I I haven't gotten back to him to explain where I am at this point.

Well, you have thought about running for governor, but you're not going to.

No, I'm not going to.

In fact, you'd like to be somebody's chief of staff.

Not necessarily chief of staff, but, you know, in the era of term limits, the last 25 years, I've held the most leadership position of anybody in the legislature, both in the House and in the Senate.

I understand how the system works.

And one of the things I have that the current legislatur doesn't is I had the experience of being there with the long termers, the people that handshakes made a difference.

I was in the first class of term limits in 1998, so we still had the Senate.

We had people like Harry Gas that have been around forever.

And so I had an example to work from.

So I think I understand the system well.

I understand relationships.

I respect both sides of the aisle.

It doesn't matter what side you're on or or wha we're what we're talking about.

Governor Whitmer and I, we work together quite well and a number of things, not only the Detroit bankruptcy but we did Medicaid expansion.

We worked with Rick Snyder to do what we thought I did i from a conservative standpoint.

I didn't like the hospitals being jammed up with people that were going there because they didn't have primary care.

But other people said, Well we just need to give a hand out to people that don't have a hand up so we can get things done working together.

And I've got an experience an a long term career of doing it.

Do you have known the governor for a long time?

You've worked very closely with her.

Do you think she wants to be president one day?

I don't know that.

I think she understands that, You know, there's a whole lot of timing issues that happen in this world and being in the right place at the right time is something that has served both of us well.

I think she' she would be a viable candidate.

She' going to be talked to about it.

What she does over the next two years will help determine what kind of things might happen to her on a national stage.

But she certainly has gotte the attention of America.

Right.

What do you think she needs to do these next two years to really, you know have that legacy defining term?

I think the world, especially this country in this state, is looking for more bipartisan working together.

And the idea of that woman from Michigan, working with that guy from Washington is kind of an interesting thing.

I think that's a challenge.

And I think that some of th underlying things that require real leadership like the mental health crisis, you don't get votes by dealing with people that have mental health issues.

But politically speaking, we talk about mental health.

It's the rhetoric is going to bring you back to guns in schools and gun control and that kind of thing, when really we're talking about a generation this generation of young people is, believe it or not, the first one in recorded history to have a lower life expectanc than the generation before it.

And they're dealing with stresses, they're dealing with mental illness and an anguish like I've never seen before.

And somebody needs to step up and say, this mental health system isn' working the way that it should.

We have a 1200 page mental health code in in in Lansing.

It goes through a PIHP.

They decide what money goe to the individual authorities.

And I've been reading a book called Insane Consequences that says the mental health system isn't failing for a lack of funding, but for a lack of leadership.

I would love to see her step up and say, this is going to be one of my one of my main issues.

Now that Republicans have control of the House again, What do you make of Speaker Hall's strategy on working with the Whitmer restoration so far and any advice for Republicans who the government?

It's a little too early for me to see how Matt's going to going to handle that.

The fact that the legislatur changed the term limit length, where you get 12 years in the House and the Senat and all, I've always said that the biggest problem with term limits is leadership.

You don't have very much time to learn how to lead and to continue to lead.

You know, in the House you get two years and then you can ru for a four year term as speaker or four years, you only get two years.

So have you seen anything in his behavior that gave you pause?

Not much, no.

He's a strong leader.

I thin he needs to be a little careful.

And all of them.

Do you know, I was with Dr. Santa Ono from the University of Michigan yesterday.

Incredible guy.

But he's they're startin an institute of civil discourse.

How do you talk an how do you disagree agreeably?

Ron Weiser is helping to support that.

And I've spoken to some of the regents about it.

The University of Michiga is a thought leader worldwide, and if we can take the lead as a state and how we can disagree agreeably, I think we'll be better off as a people.

We agree that we.

It's good to see you.

It's good to see you.

Take care.

All right.

Thank you.

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