>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE SENATE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS JUST GETTING STARTED, BUT WITH CONVICTION AND BARRING FROM A FUTURE RUN UNLIKELY, WITHOUT A G.O.P.

EPIPHANY, THE DIRECTOR OF HARVARD'S SHORENSTEIN CENTER, NANCY GIBBS, ARGUES THERE'S ANOTHER WAY TO STOP TRUMP FROM RUNNING IN 2024.

SHE JOINS ME.

PLUS, I'LL TALK TO EVERETT CITY COUNCILOR GERLY ADRIEN ABOUT THE OBSTACLES SHE'S FACED AS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO SERVE IN THE ROLE.

HER MOST RECENT OFFENSE?

SMILING AT A COUNCIL MEETING.

THEN, LATER, FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING, WHO JUST BECAME THE FIRST PERSON TO ANNOUNCE A RUN FOR GOVERNOR IN 2022.

AND, FINALLY, SOME OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SENDING IN.

>>> SO THE BIG MOMENT IS HERE, THE FIRST SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL OF A PRESIDENT.

BUT BEFORE THE MAIN EVENT, WE WERE TREATED TO A DAY OF ARGUMENTS OVER WHETHER THE TRIAL SHOULD BE HELD AT ALL.

>> JUDGMENT, IN OTHER WORDS THE BAD THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IN CASES OF IMPEACHMENT, I.E., WHAT WE ARE DOING, SHALL NOT EXTEND FURTHER THAN REMOVAL FROM OFFICE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP NO LONGER IS IN OFFICE.

THE OBJECT OF THE CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN ACHIEVED.

HE WAS REMOVED BY THE VOTERS.

>> THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION MAKES CLEAR: THERE IS NO JANUARY EXCEPTION TO THE IMPEACHMENT POWER THAT PRESIDENTS CAN'T COMMIT GRAVE OFFENSES IN THEIR FINAL DAYS AND ESCAPE ANY CONGRESSIONAL RESPONSE.

THAT'S NOT HOW OUR CONSTITUTION WORKS.

>> Braude: AND WITH A MAJORITY OF SENATORS AGREEING WITH THE LATTER ARGUMENT, THE TRIAL ITSELF IS EXPECTED TO MOVE QUICKLY THROUGH THE REST OF THE WEEK, WITH EACH SIDE GETTING UP TO 16 HOURS TO MAKE THEIR CASE.

A FINAL VOTE COULD COME AS EARLY AS THE START OF NEXT WEEK, BUT THIS TIME AROUND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT BECAUSE, AS THE DEFENSE SAID, TRUMP HAS BEEN OUT OF OFFICE FOR WEEKS NOW.

AND THERE'S BEEN SOME DISPUTE OVER WHETHER A VOTE TO CONVICT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY BAR TRUMP FROM EVER HOLDING PUBLIC OFFICE AGAIN, AN ISSUE WE RAISED YESTERDAY ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" WITH CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR AND HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR LAURENCE TRIBE.

HE TOLD US A SECOND VOTE WOULD BE NEEDED FOR THAT, WHICH COULD ONLY HAPPEN IF THE SENATE DID CONVICT.

AND CONVICTION REQUIRES A TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY, MEANING AT LEAST 17 REPUBLICANS WOULD HAVE TO JOIN ALL 50 DEMOCRATS, WHICH IS A STRETCH BASED ON WHAT REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN SAYING OVER THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS.

BUT EVEN IF THE SENATE DOESN'T END UP LEGALLY BLOCKING TRUMP, MY NEXT GUEST ARGUES, IN A NEW "WASHINGTON POST" OP-ED, THEY COULD DISCOURAGE HIM FROM RUNNING AGAIN.

NANCY GIBBS IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE SHORENSTEIN CENTER ON MEDIA, POLITICS, AND PUBLIC POLICY AT HARVARD'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, AND A FORMER WRITER AND EDITOR IN CHIEF AT "TIME" MAGAZINE.

>> Braude: NANCY, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> NICE TO SEE YOU, TOO.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF TRIBE, HE ALSO SAID ON THE RADIO YESTERDAY, HE BELIEVED THAT THE CASE WAS GOING TO BE PRESENTED SO POWERFULLY BY JAMIE RASKIN AND HIS COLLEAGUES, THAT REPUBLICANS WOULD HAVE, I DON'T KNOW, A COME TO JESUS MOMENT AND VOTE FOR CONVICTION AND ULTIMATELY TO BAR.

OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THAT SCHOOL OF THOUGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S -- IT FEELS A LITTLE LIKE WISHFUL THINKING.

IT IS TRUE THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING PARTICULARLY POWERFUL ABOUT THEM BEING IN THAT CHAMBER, WATCHING THE VIDEO OF THE RANSACKING OF THIS MOST SACRED PLACE.

THIS WAS THERE HOME BEING INTRUDED ON.

THIS IS NOT ABSTRACT TO THEM.

AND ALL OF THAT IS VERY REAL.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE DEALING WITH EMOTIONAL ELEMENTS HERE THAT ARE MORE ACUTE THAN CERTAINLY WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE UKRAINE PHONE CALL.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> HAVING SAID THAT, THIS IS A HARD-NOSED POLITICAL CALCULATION THAT MANY OF THEM WILL BE MAKING, AND I DON'T SEE A LOT OF EVIDENCE TO IMAGINE THEY ARE GOING TO VOTE AGAINST WHAT THEY CALCULATE TO BE THEIR POLITICAL TRUTH.

>> Braude: AS I SAID A SECOND AGO, YOUR PIECE WAS, IF YOU CAN'T BAR HIM, AT LEAST DISCOURAGE HIM.

AND YOU SUGGESTED THAT BY CONVERTING NORMS, MOST OF WHICH HE VIOLATED, IF NOT ALL, TO LAWS OR SOMETHING COMPARABLE TO THAT, YOU MAY CONVINCE THE DONALD TRUMP WE'VE GROWN TO KNOW QUITE WELL THAT RUNNING WOULD NOT BE A GREAT IDEA.

IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT YOU SAID?

>> YES.

WE STARTED WITH THE ADVANTAGE THERE WAS ALWAYS A LOT OF EVIDENCE HE ENJOYED RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, CAMPAIGNING FOR PRESIDENT, RATHER THAN BEING PRESIDENT.

WHILE THE IDEA OF CAMPAIGNING AGAIN WILL APPEAL TO HIM, BUT ACTUALLY WINNING OR SERVING, THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HOLDS ANY APPEAL.

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET OUT IS THERE ARE THINGS THAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY THAT WOULD DISCOURAGE HIM FROM CONSIDERING ANOTHER RUN.

FOR INSTANCE, IF HE HAD TO MAKE HIS TAX RETURNS AVAILABLE, IF HE HAD TO DIVEST OF HIS BUSINESS OWNERSHIP, IF HIS FOREIGN PARTNERSHIPS AND BUSINESS DEALS HAD TO BE MUCH MORE TRANSPARENTLY REVEALED, THESE ARE THINGS THAT IT WOULD BE IN THE INTEREST FOR ANY PARTY, ANY CANDIDATE GOING FORWARD -- IT WOULD BE IN THE INTEREST OF DEMOCRACY FOR VOTERS TO HAVE A MUCH BETTER SENSE OF THE FINANCIAL LIABILITIES AND INTERESTS OF THEIR CANDIDATES.

IN TRUMP'S SPECIFIC CASE, WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HE WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO CONCEAL THESE FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIPS FOR A REASON, AND IF HE WERE REQUIRED TO REVEAL THEM, THAT WOULD BE QUITE A CONSIDERABLE DETERRENT.

>> Braude: LET'S TALK ABOUT A FEW OF THEM.

YOU MENTIONED HAD APPEARED TO LIKE RUNNING MORE THAN BEING PRESIDENT.

REMEMBER THE LINE: THE GOOD NEWS IS YOU WON THE ELECTION, BUT THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAVE TO SERVE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT TAXES.

THE "NEW YORK TIMES" DID REPORTING, DEMONSTRATED -- HE DIDN'T EREBUTT HE DIDN'T REBUTT, THAT HE DIDN'T PAY TAXES FOR YEARS, HE HAD $400 MILLION IN DEBT, AND IT APPARENTLY HAD NO IMPACT ON HIM OR HIS SUPPORTERS.

>> YOU MAKE A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT AT THIS POINT HIS PREDICTION HE COULD SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE AVENUE HAS LOOKED MUCH LESS HYPER HYPERBOLIC.

I THINK THE FICTION CHARACTER TALKS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN.

IT WAS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER.

AND IT WAS A POWERFUL PART OF HIS APPEAL TO MANY PEOPLE, AND YOU STILL HEAR OF THIS FROM PEOPLE WHO VOTED TO HIM, EVEN IF THEY HATED THE TWEETING,BUT THEY LIKED THE IDEA OF SENDING A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN TO WASHINGTON TO CLEAN UP WHAT THEY VIEWED AS BEING A MESS.

SO IT IS -- IT IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR TO ME THAT IF WE REALLY UNDERSTOOD MORE ABOUT SOME OF HIS FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIPS, THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE AN IMPACT.

HAVING SAID THAT, YOU MENTIONED NORMS.

WHEN YOU BROUGHT UP THE HARDENING OF NORMS, I DO THINK THAT IS ANOTHER PLACE WHERE WE HAVE DISCOVERED THAT ETHICS CONVENTIONS ARE NOT GOING TO NECESSARILY BE SUFFICIENT, BUT OUR MECHANISMS OF HOLDING OFFICE HOLDERS ACCOUNTABLE ARE NO LONGER ADEQUATE BECAUSE HE VIOLATED MANY OF THEM.

>> Braude: I WANT TO RAISE ONE OTHER YOU DIDN'T MENTION.

IN ONE OF YOUR PIECES, YOU TALK ABOUT ANTI-NEPOTISM RULES, BEING BURST OUT OF THE BOBBY KENNEDY, ATTORNEY-GENERAL, FOR HIS BROTHER THE PRESIDENT, AND HOW THEY HAD BEEN ADHERED TO BY-PRODUCTS UNTIL DONALD TRUMP.

I AGREE, IF HE COULDN'T HAVE IVANKA BY HIS SIDE OR HIS SON-IN-LAW -- HOWEVER, YOU USED THE TERM "LACKEY."

EVEN IF HIS FAMILY WASN'T THERE, HE HAD SYCOPHANTS, LACKEYS, THAT HE FIRED.

IS THERE AN ANTI-LACKLACKEY PROVISION?

>> THERE IS NOT.

A RULING ON INAUGURATION DAY BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, SAID IT DID NOT EXTEND TO THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF.

SO WHILE IT PRECLUDED ANOTHER APPOINTING YOUR BROTHER ATTORNEY-GENERAL, IT DID NOT PRECLUDE THE ROLES THAT IVANKA AND JARED WERE GIVEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

AT A MINIMUM, REINTERPRETING THE DEFINITION OF WHERE THAT ANTI-NEPOTISM PROHIBITION SHOULD EXTEND TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, IF YOUR GOAL IS LOYALTY AT ALL COSTS -- AND THE PRESIDENT WAS VERY, VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS, HE MADE NO SECRET ABOUT WHAT HE WANTED IN AN ATTORNEY-GENERAL, WHAT HE WANTED IN HIS CABINET OFFICERS, THOSE WHO TRIED TO SERVE THE COUNTRY AS OPPOSED TO SERVING THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WERE PUNISHED FOR IT.

ASK ALEXANDER VINDERMAN, ANY NUMBER OF WHISTLE-BLOWERS AND CAREER PROSECUTORS, AND PEOPLE'S WHO ENTIRE MISSION WAS TO ENSURE THE ACCOUNTABILITY PROVISIONS OF GOVERNMENT, WHERE IT WAS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF EXECUTIVE POWER FOR HIM TO PUNISH THEM.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK VERY HARD ABOUT HOW DO YOU STRENGTHEN THOSE ACCOUNTABILITY FUNCTIONS FOR INSPECTORS GENERAL, CAREER PROSECUTORS, WHISTLE-BLOWERS?

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT, BUT I HAVE TO SAY, EVEN IF YOUR DISCOURAGEMENT IDEAS ARE NOT A SLAM-DUNK, AND I HOPE THEY ARE, AS YOU MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO, THEY'RE ALL GOOD GOVERNMENT IDEAS.

VERY QUICKLY, THE REASON YOU THINK SOME REPUBLICANS WOULD BREAK FREE AND SUPPORT THEM IS BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE REPUBLICANS WANT TO BE THE PRESIDENT IN 2024, CORRECT?

>> THEY MIGHT DO THEM IN THE INTEREST OF DEMOCRACY.

THEY MIGHT DO THEM IN THE INTEREST OF CLEARING THE FIELD.

>> Braude: FAIR ENOUGH.

NANCY, TERRIFIC PIECE IN THE "WASHINGTON POST."

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> NICE TO SEE YOU, TOO.

> NEXT UP, WHEN WE FIRST TALKED TO EVERETT CITY COUNCILOR GERLY ADRIEN LAST FALL, HER FELLOW COUNCIL MEMBERS HAD BEEN PRESSURING HER TO RESIGN.

THEIR PROBLEM?

SHE ATTENDED MEETINGS REMOTELY TO PROTECT HER ELDERLY PARENTS.

BY THE WAY, ADRIEN HELD HER GROUND AND HER SEAT.

BUT THAT WAS FAR FROM THE FIRST ISSUE SHE'D HAD SINCE SHE WAS SWORN IN AS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN ON THE COUNCIL A YEAR AGO.

AND IT WASN'T THE LAST, EITHER.

YET WHEN SHE'S TRIED, AT TIMES, TO RAISE ISSUES ABOUT RACISM, BOTH AT CITY HALL AND BEYOND, SOME OF HER COLLEAGUES HAVE DISMISSED HER CONCERNS ENTIRELY, INCLUDING CITY COUNCILOR WAYNE MATEWSKY.

>> I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANY RACIST COMPLAINTS, REALLY.

IF SHE KNOWS SOMETHING THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT PEOPLE BEING RUDE TO PEOPLE IN THIS BUILDING, OR ANYWHERE IN THIS CITY, YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T SEE IT.

AND I'M A POLISH-AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY A MINORITY MYSELF HERE.

>> Braude: I DON'T THINK I'M EVEN GOING TO COMMENT ON THAT, BUT ADRIEN HAS.

AND IN A "BOSTON GLOBE" OP-ED YESTERDAY, SHE WROTE, "I AM CONSISTENTLY CRITICIZED ABOUT MY HAIR, MY LOOKS, AND HOW I SPEAK.

I AM PROUD TO BE A BLACK WOMAN IN POLITICS.

I WILL NOT CHANGE WHO I AM OR WHAT I HAVE TO SAY."

EVERETT CITY COUNCILOR GERLY ADRIEN JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: COUNSELOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> IT IS NICE TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU WERE HERE IN NOVEMBER, THE HEAD OF THE CITY COUNCIL SAID YOU WERE A, QUOTE, "PROBLEM," AND YOU WERE TRYING TO DESTROY THE CITY.

A FORMER CITY COUNCILOR SAID YOU WERE A CANCER ON THE CITY COUNCIL.

AT THAT TIME, I READ COMMENTS FROM MANY OF YOUR SUPPORTERS WHO THOUGHT IT HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEIR DISCOMFORT OF HAVING THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN AS A COLLEAGUE.

DID YOU BUY THAT?

>> YES, VERY MUCH SO.

NOBODY ELSE ON THE COUNCIL GETS THE TYPE OF TREATMENT THAT I DO.

>> Braude: AND HAVE THINGS IMPROVED?

THAT WAS ABOUT FOUR MONTHS AGO, WHEN WE SPOKE -- THREE MONTHS AGO.

HAVE THINGS IMPROVED IN THOSE INTERVENING MONTHS BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES?

>> YOU KNOW, JIM, SADLY, IT IS WEIRD.

IT STILL HASN'T.

I THOUGHT IT WAS THE RALLY WITH THE SUPPORTERS, SHOWING THAT I HAVE SUPPORT ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH.

I THOUGHT MY COLLEAGUES WOULD BE AT LEAST A LOT MORE RECEPTIVE, AND EVEN WITH LAST NIGHT'S COUNCIL MEETING, THEY'RE STILL JUST NOT A FAN OF ME OR MY IDEAS.

>> Braude: AND WHEN YOU SAY NOT A FAN OF YOU, THEY'RE ENTITLED TO NOT BE A FAN OF YOUR IDEAS -- WELL, THEY'RE ENTITLED TO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

BUT IS THEIR ANIMOSITY TOWARDS YOU -- LET ME REPEAT -- IS IT BECAUSE YOU'RE A BLACK WOMAN IN A COUNCIL THAT HAS NEVER HAD ONE BEFORE?

IS IT STILL?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, GENTLEWOMAN, I FEEL LIKE THAT.

AS WE SAW IN NOVEMBER, THEY LABELED ME TOO AGGRESSIVE.

THEY SAID MY IDEAS WERE TOO BOLD FOR EVERETT, AND THOSE ARE COMMON LABELS THAT WE HEAR ABOUT BLACK WOMEN.

AND SO YESTERDAY IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE," THAT'S WHAT I WROTE ABOUT, BEING A BLACK WOMAN IN POLITICS, AND HOW I'M STILL GOING TO BE HERE, AND I PLAN ON STAYING HERE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO YOUR "GLOBE" PIECE IN A MINUTE.

I WANT TO STAY FOR A MINUTE ON HOW YOU ARE TREATED BY YOUR COLLEAGUES.

AN ISSUE AROSE AT A MEETING, I THINK IT WAS LAST WEEK, AND THE MAYOR, DEMARIA, SAID HE FOUND YOU DISTRACTING.

AND HERE IS PART OF WHAT THE MAYOR HAD TO SAY.

>> Mayor: I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO SHUT SOME PRODUCTION OFF OF SOME PEOPLE WHEN THEY TALK BECAUSE I SOMETIMES HAVE A HARD TIME, WHEN PEOPLE OF LAUGHING AND STUFF.

>> LET'S KEEP IT RESPECTFUL, EVERYONE, PLEASE.

>> Mayor: THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER.

>> Braude: SO THE MAYOR WAS ESSENTIALLY SAYING HE WANTED TO SHUT OFF YOUR IMAGE.

AND WHEN WE CONTACTED HIM TODAY, HE SENT THIS STATEMENT: "I OBSERVED A FELLOW OFFICIAL BEING DISREDISRESPECTFUL TOWARDS ME.

I DIDN'T CONSIDER IT ACCEPTABLE FOR SUCH CONDUCT TO BE ACCEPTED TOWARDS OFFICIALS.

DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT ISSUES REQUIRE EQUAL RESPECT TO REMAIN ON ADVANCING AND IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR INDIVIDUALS AND BUSINESSES OF EVERETT."

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT THE MAYOR SAID AT THE MEETING AND HIS STATEMENT HE SENT TO US?

>> WHEN I HEARD HIM SAY THIS DURING THE CITY COUNCIL, I KNEW HE WOULD NEVER SAY THAT TYPE OF COMMENT TO ANY OTHER MEMBER.

JUST IN GENERAL, I'M A WOMAN.

NO MAN SHOULD EVER SPEAK TO A PERSON LIKE THAT.

NO OTHER ELECTED OFFICIAL SHOULD SPEAK TO ANOTHER PERSON LIKE THAT.

AND LISTENING TO HIS STATEMENT, IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS NO APOLOGY.

HE STILL HAS NOT LEARNED THAT THAT IS DISRESPECTFUL, EVEN WITH ALL OF THE SUPPORTERS THAT WERE TAGGING HIM ON TWITTER ABOUT HOW RACIST AND HOW RUDE THAT WAS.

IT SEEMS LIKE HE JUST DOES NOT UNDERSTAND.

AND THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT I DEAL WITH ON THE COUNCIL.

NO MATTER WHAT I DO OR WHAT I SAY, I COULD JUST SAY A WORD DURING THE COUNCIL MEETING, AND IT'S STILL WRONG.

THERE IS STILL SOMETHING WRONG.

I HAVE COLLEAGUES WHO ARE FALLING ASLEEP.

I HAVE COLLEAGUES WHO ARE DRIVING DURING MEETINGS, AND THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING, NO CRITICISM, NOTHING.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I WATCHED THE MAYOR'S OFFICE, IN ADDITION TO SENDING US A STATEMENT, CENTER US THREE EXCERPTS FROM THE MEETING TO WATCH, WHICH YOUR BEHAVIOR WAS ALLEGEDLY OBJECTIONABLE, AND I SAW SMILING SEVERAL TIMES.

ONE OF THE TIMES YOU WERE SMILING WAS WHEN HE SAID -- WHICH I WAS SMILING AT -- HE DOESN'T READ SOCIAL MEDIA, EXCEPT HIS OWN.

YOU'RE LAUGHING NOW, AND I LAUGHED WHEN I SAW IT.

SO APPARENTLY SMILING IS A CRIME AT A CITY COUNCIL MEETING, WHICH I WAS NOT AWARE OF.

LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR "GLOBE" PIECE WHERE YOU SAID WOMEN, PARTICULARLY BLACK WOMEN, ARE HELD TO VERY DIFFERENT STANDARDS IN POLITICS.

>> VERY DIFFERENT.

VERY MUCH SO.

>> Braude: HOW SO?

>> WHEN I WROTE ABOUT THAT PIECE, JIM, I WROTE IT FROM MY HEART.

MY EXPERIENCE FOR THE LAST 13 MONTHS BEING ON THE COUNCIL, AND I JUST NOTICED FROM THE TIME HOW MY HAIR LOOKS, HOW I PRESENT MYSELF DURING THE MEETINGS, EVEN HOW I JUST POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA -- EVERY SINGLE ACTION THAT I DO IS CRITICIZED BY MY COLLEAGUES OR BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND, LIKE I SAID, I HAVE MY OTHER COLLEAGUES, AND THEY HAVE DONE MUCH WORSE, AND THEY GET NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT I GET.

AND I THINK THAT IS UNFAIR, PARTICULARILY BEING A BLACK WOMAN IN POLITICS, AND BEING THE FIRST FOR THE CITY OF EVERETT, I TALKED ABOUT IT COMPARING IT TO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND WHAT HE DID NO VICE-PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS.

SHE SMILED AND SHE WOULD LAUGH, AND HE WOULD CRITICIZE HER.

AND I PUT MAYOR DEMARIA IN THE SAME BOAT.

AND THERE IS NO APOLOGY TO IT.

YOU THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY -- MY SOCIAL MEDIA IS ALWAYS BEING BROUGHT UP DURING CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS, WHICH IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT AT ALL.

BUT IF YOU KNEW WHAT THE CONVERSATION WAS, I WASN'T LYING WHEN IT WAS THE CONVERSATION THAT WAS BROUGHT UP, SURPRISINGLY.

IT WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, INTERESTING TO HEAR.

ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE A POINTED ISSUE AT THE TABLE, AND MY LIFE OR MY ACTIONS ARE BEING BROUGHT UP TO THE PUBLIC BUT NOBODY ELSE'S.

>> Braude: HOW HARD IS THIS FOR YOU PERSONALLY, COUNCILOR?

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS TIRING, JIM.

IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING AND TIRING.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DON'T SEE SO MANY PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF COLOR, OR WOMEN -- I HAVE MY HUSBAND, WHO IS 100% SUPPORTIVE, BUT IF I HAD CHILDREN AND MORE RESPONSIBILITIES, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO BALANCE ALL OF THIS.

IT IS SO TOUGH.

AND THIS MORNING WHEN I WOKE UP, I WAS, LIKE, MAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW PEOPLE DO THIS FOR YEARS.

FOR YEARS THEY STAY IN OFFICE.

AND I CAN SEE WHY WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE LIKE US IN OFFICE.

>> Braude: I ASKED YOU LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, IN LIGHT OF ALL OF THIS, WOULD YOU THINK OF GIVING IT UP, AND YOU SAID YOU WOULD RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND THEN I READ SOME FINANCIAL FORMS YOU'RE YOU FILED, AND YOU'RE RAISING A TON OF MONEY AND YOU'RE IN A CLOSE SECOND TO THE MAYOR.

ARE YOU CONTEMPLATING RUNNING FOR THE MAYOR'S SEAT, RATHER THAN CITY COUNCIL?

>> JIM, I AM SO FOCUSED ON MY RE-ELECTION.

I RAISED THAT MONEY TO SHOW MY COLLEAGUES THAT I AM NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

I DO BELONG HER AND I PLAN ON STAYING.

>> Braude: GLAD TO HEAR IT.

COUNCILOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

BE WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IT'S BEEN BARELY A BLINK OF AN EYE SINCE THE 2020 ELECTION TIMELY ENDED, AND ALREADY TWO MORE RACES ARE UNDER WAY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

ONE FOR MAYOR OF BOSTON THIS FALL, AND NOW THE 202 2022 RACE FOR GOVERNOR.

FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING THREW HIS HAT IN THE RING.

HE REPRESENTED A LARGE SWATH OF WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS FOR 10 YEARS BEFORE STEPPING DOWN IN 2017.

SINCE THEN, HE HAS SERVED AS THE VICE PRESIDENT AT THE BOSTON RENEWAL ENERGY COMPANY, AND MOVED TO EAST BOSTON.

SO FAR HE IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE OFFICIALLY IN THE RUNNING.

INCUMBENT CHARLIE BAKER HAS YET TO ANNOUNCE HIS PLANS.

BUT ANOTHER DEMOCRAT AND PROFESSOR AND AUTHOR DANIELLE ALLEN TOLD US SHE IS EXPLORING A RUN AS WELL.

BEN DOWNING JOINS ME NOW.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, TOO, JIM.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF DOING THIS, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

>> I'M RUNNING TO BUILD A STRONGER MASSACHUSETTS, WHERE I LEADERSHIP HASN'T BROUGHT THE ENERGY INTO ADDRESSING THE PROBLEMS WE'RE FACING, ECONOMIC AND RACIAL INJUSTICE AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> Braude: SO IS BAKER PART OF THE EQUATION, OR IS HE IRRELEVANT TO THE CANDIDATES SEE?

>> GOVERNOR BAKER ISN'T PART OF TZ THE EQUATION BECAUSE I'M RUNNING WHETHER HE IS A PART OR NOT.

BUT HE IS A PART THAT OUR LEADERSHIP IN THE PAST 10 YEARS HASN'T ACTED WITH THE SENSE OF URGENCY WE NEED IT TO.

>> Braude: IS IT ACTING WITH WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE AN ADEQUATE SENSE OF EMERGENCY?

THEY HAVE AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY -- >> THEY HAVEN'T, NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

THIS IS NOT A CHARLIE BAKER ISSUECH THIS ISSUE.

THIS IS A LEADERSHIP ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO BEACON HILL, JIM.

>> Braude: TAXES, JUST FOR A SECOND, CHARLIE BAKER MADE CLEAR DURING HIS BUDGET RELIEF, HE IS AGAINST A BROAD-BASED TAX.

DO YOU THINK WE NEED TAXES IN MASSACHUSETTS FOR THINGS LIKE TRANSPORTATION, WHICH OBVIOUSLY WOULD BE A HUGE HELP WHERE YOU COME FROM, CONNECTING WESTERN MASS TO EASTERN MASS.

ARE TAXES NEEDED?

>> WE NEED TO LOOK AT COMPREHENSIVE TAX REFORM.

WE NEED TO MAKE THE INVESTMENTS IN TRANSPORTATION, IN EARLY EDUCATION, IN PUBLIC HIGHER EDUCATION, AND TO TAKE THAT OFF THE TABLE AS GOVERNOR BAKER HAS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY MASSACHUSETTS INCOME INEQUALITY GROWS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU MENTIONED GOVERNOR BAKER THERE BEING ADVERSE TO TAXES, YOU KNOW, ONCE AGAIN, THE LEGISLATURE CAN PASS A TAX INCREASE, AND WHEN VETOED BY GOVERNOR BAKER COULD OVERWHELMING OVERRIDE THAT VETO.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THEIR -- ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS I READ YOU SUPPORT 100% RENEWABLE ENERGY BY 2030.

THE DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE COULDN'T AGREE ON THAT SAME GOAL BY 2045.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN PARTY WHO ARE AS RESISTANT TO CHANGE, IN SOME, BUT ADMITTEDLY NOT ALL, AREAS.

>> THAT IS PART OF THE REASON FOR GETTING INTO THIS CAMPAIGN SO EARLY, JIM.

WE NEED THE TIME TO MAKE A COALITION, AS FOR WHY MASSACHUSETTS NEEDS TO HAVE MORE URGENCY FOR ITS LEADERSHIP ON THESE ISSUES.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU DO IN YOUR DECADE IN THELACHES THE LEGISLATIVE, OTHER THAN RESIGN.

WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ACHIEVEMENT, DO YOU THINK, IN YOUR DECADE THERE?

>> I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WAS, QUITE FRANKLY FOR ME, BEING ACCESSIBLE TO VOTERS.

I HELD REGULAR OFFICE HOURS IN ALL OF THE 52 COMMUNITIES I REPRESENTED.

THAT'S WHERE I LEARNED ABOUT THE MATTERS THAT WERE MOST IMPORTANT.

>> Braude: AS A BOSTON RESIDENT, WHETHER YOU WERE OR NOT, BUT AS A BOSTON RESIDENT, I'M SURE YOU READ THE STORY THE OTHER DAY IN THE "GLOBE" ABOUT THE EMBARRASSLY LOW PERCENTAGE OF CITY CONTRACTS THAT GO TO MINORITY-OWNED BUSINESSES.

LESS THAN 1% FOR BOTH BLACK AND LATINOS.

THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE DEBATE, ALSO, ABOUT STATE CONTRACTS FOR MINORITY-OWNED BUSINESSES, BETTER, BUT NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

>> IT IS FRUSTRATING TO NO END.

THE CHALLENGE HERE, JIM, AND WE'VE SEEN THIS EVEN WITH THE VACCINE ROLLOUT, RIGHT, IS THAT WE ESTABLISH SYSTEMS AND THEN PRESUME THAT ALL COMMUNITIES WILL HAVE THE SAME ACCESS TO THAT SYSTEM.

WE HAVE TO BE INTENTIONAL ABOUT OUR OUTREACH, IN BUILDING THAT CAPACITY, IN MAKING SURE THAT MINORITY BUSINESSES KNOW OF THESE OPPORTUNITIES, CAN APPLY FOR THESE OPPORTUNITIES.

OFTENTIMES THE CONTRACTS ARE TOO LARGE, AND THOSE COMPANIES DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO TAKE THEM ALL ON.

WE'VE GOT TO BREAK THEM DOWN AND MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE TO ALL OF THESE BUSINESSES SO THEY CAN GROW AND FLOURISH.

>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED THE COVID SITUATION, AND I'M SURE YOU AND EVERYONE VIEWING KNOWS PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE GETTING SICKER, THEY'RE DYING MORE, THEY'RE GETTING FEWER VACCINATIONS, FEWER TESTS.

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

>> SO, FIRST, AT THE FRONT END OF THE VACCINE, OR AT THE FRONT END OF THE PANDEMIC, WE SHOULD HAVE GREATER WORKER PROTECTIONS IN PLACE, SO EVERYONE WAS ON THE SAME LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WHEN IT CAME TO RESPONDING TO THIS.

THAT WOULD HAVE MEANT EMERGENCY SICK TIME FOR ALL ESSENTIAL WORKERS.

AND TESTING SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THESE COMMUNITIES FAR EARLIER, AND NOW WE SHOULD HAVE HAD MORE VACCINE EQUITY.

WE SHOULD HAVE MORE OF THE VACCINATION SITES IN COMMUNITIES.

IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO SEYCHELLES SEE,SAYSAYCHELSEA, YOU WERE THE EPICENTER AND EVERYBODY HAS TO FIND A WAY TO GET THERE.

WE'VE GOT TO DO BETTER THAN THAT.

>> Braude: THERE HASN'T BEEN MANY GOVERNORS ELECTED FROM THE BERKSHIRES.

SO WE KNOW JAMES SWIFT, OBVIOUSLY, WHO WAS ACTING GOVERNOR WHEN PAUL SALUCCI WENT TO CANADA.

WHO WAS THE LAST GOVERNOR-ELECTED FROM THE BERKSHIRES, AND WHEN WAS HE ELECTED?

SENATOR, THIS IS THE KEY FOR YOU.

WHO IS IT?

>> WINTHROP BARRY CRANE, AND I BELIEVE IT WAS THE EARLY PART OF LAST CENTURY.

I'M NOT SURE OF THE EXACT TIME.

>> Braude: IT WAS 1899, AND IF YOU WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL, YOU BETTER KNOW THAT GOING FORWARD.

YOU WERE CLOSE ENOUGH.

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR CANDIDACY, AND WE HOPE TO TALK TO YOU A LOT IN THE MONTHS AHEAD.

>> THANKS.

>> Braude: AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SOME OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SENDING IN.

MARILYN SENT THESE PHOTOS SHE TOOK ON A RECENT AND INCREASINGLY RARE SUNNY WALK IN BROOKLINE WHICH SHE SAYS LIFTED HER SPIRITS.

CANDY SAYS NEW ENGLAND WAS GLISTENING DURING THE WEEKEND SNOWSTORM, AND KATHRYN SENT US A VERY FUNNY PICTURE OF HER CAT.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SHARE, SEND IT TO US AT THE ADDRESSES ON YOUR SCREEN.

ANGELA WROTE IN, WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THE VIBRANT SPIRIT OF MARK TWAIN IN NEW ENGLAND'S TOM RUSH, HE HAS THE LOOK, THE MUSTACHE, AND MILES OF TALES, AND BERNIE'S SUPPORT, APPARENTLY.

LET'S FACE IT, MITTENS MAKE THE MAN.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW.

I'LL BE JOINED BY TWO BOSTON AREA RESTAURANTEURS PIVOTING TO A NEW BUSINESS MODEL TO HELP KEEP THEIR BUSINESSES OPEN DURING THE PANDEMIC: PRESCRIPTION SERVICES.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org