♪ >>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE ONLY REASON THE BORDER IS NOT SECURE IS DONALD TRUMP.

HIS MAGA REPUBLICAN FRIENDS.

>> AFTER A BIPARTISAN IMMIGRATION DEAL IS BLOCKED IN THE SENATE, WHERE DOES IT LEAVE A SYSTEM AT BREAKING POINT?

I ASK JONATHAN BLITZER.

>>> AS UKRAINE FUNDING FALLS VICTIM TO WASHINGTON DYSFUNCTION, WE TAKE A LOOK AT PUTIN'S STANDING INSIDE RUSSIA WITH HISTORIAN NINA KHRUSHCHEVA.

>>> WE RARELY SEE HOW POWERFUL JOURNALISM CAN BE.

>> A REMINDER OF THE IMPACT OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.

WE LOOK BACK AT A CONVERSATION ON THE FILM "SPOTLIGHT" WITH THE DIRECTOR TOM McCARTHY AND STAR MARK RUFFALO.

>>> JOURNALIST CALVIN TRILLIN FROM MORE THAN 60 YEARS OF REPORTING.

HE SHARES THEM WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDER FAMILY ENDOURMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKIE STRAUSS, CETON J. MELVIN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME.

I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

U.S.

LAWMAKERS FAILED AGAIN THIS WEEK TO AGREE ON A SOLUTION TO THE COUNTRY'S IMMIGRATION CRISIS.

THIS TIME, SECURITY PROVISIONS DESIGNED TO DRAW BIPARTISAN SUPPORT ENDED UP BACKFIRING WITH FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP TURNING THE TIDE AGAINST IT.

THEN CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS FOLLOWING SUIT.

IT'S A DEFINING ISSUE IN THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

BEYOND THE POLITICS ARE COUNTLESS HUMAN STORIES.

THE NUMBER OF UNAUTHORIZED IMMIGRANTS CROSSING THE BORDER KEEPS REACHING RECORD HIGHS.

A BACKLOG OF CASES PASSES 3 MILLION.

IF THIS WEEK'S DEAL HAD PASSED IN CONGRESS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO U.S. IMMIGRATION POLICY IN DECADES.

EVIDENCE OF HOW LONG THE ISSUE HAS REMAINED A STUBBORN POLITICAL CHALLENGE IN WASHINGTON, TO GET A SENSE OF WHY, WE TURN NOW TO JONATHAN BLITZER.

HE COVERED THE ISSUE FOR YEARS.

HE EXPLORES HOW WE GOT HERE IN HIS NEW BOOK.

HE JOINS US FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

WELCOME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT LOOKS LIKE THIS PARTICULAR BILL WAS FOCUSED ON WHAT I CALLED SECURITY PROVISIONS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION REFORM IN THIS CASE, WHAT WERE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WERE ON THE TABLE?

>> YEAH.

THIS AS A REFORM MESHASURE IS NARROW.

WHAT WAS BEING NEGOTIATED WERE CHANGES TO THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

MAKING IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO GAIN ENTRY THROUGH THE AASYLUM SYSTEM BY RAGZISING THE INTERVI.

ESTABLISH TRIGGERING SO THAT IF THE TRAFFIC REACHED A CERTAIN POINT AT THE SOUTHERN BOARD HE THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO SHUT DOWN THE BORDER, WHICH MEANS THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE THE PROCESSING OF ASYLUM.

NARROW BUT CONSERVATIVE MEASURES THAT TYPICALLY IN THE SWEEP OF WASHINGTON REFORM ON IMMIGRATION WOULD BE PAIRED WITH OTHER MEASURES THAT WOULD BE MORE AMBITIOUS AND BROADER.

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE POLITICAL MANEUVERING ROOM IS NARROW.

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

IN YOUR BOOK YOU HAVE THE TITLE CENTRAL AMERICA.

IN THE PAST, THERE WAS A FOCUS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER WITH MEXICO ABOUT MAYBE MEXICAN MOSTLY MALE WORKERS CROSSING FOR WORK.

THE CONVERSATION HAS CHANGED OVER THE LAST DECADE TO CENTRAL AMERICA.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT IS DRIVING THAT MIGRATORY FLOW?

IF THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ECONOMIC MIGRANTS AND ASYLUM SEEKERS.

>> THE SITUATION ATEVOLVED.

FAMILIES AND CHILDREN SEEKING ASYLUM AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER, WHICH AS YOU SAY WAS A CHANGE FROM HOW THE BORDER TENDED TO WORK THROUGH THE '90s AND EARLY 2000s.

ACROSS THE REGION, AROUND 2014, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES FLEEING VIOLENCE, CRIME, CORRUPTION, POVERTY ACROSS THE REGION.

NOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING LAYERED ON TOP OF THAT IS A GLOBAL POPULATION.

PEOPLE FLEEING VENEZUELA.

SO YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE SHOWING UP AT THE BORDER WHOSE CLAIMS BY THE STRICT DEFINITION SET FORWARD BY THE STATUTE DON'T HAVE THE BEST CASE BUT WHO ARE ARRIVING AT THE BORDER DESPERATE FOR PROTECTION, TO PURSUE OPPORTUNITY.

BECAUSE IN WASHINGTON THERE HASN'T BEEN A MORE SYSTEM ATIC AVEN WIDENING OF THIS, IT'S WORSE THAN EVER.

>> SOME OF THEM, IF THEY ARE ABLE TO CROSS, MIGHT END UP ON A BUS, FUNDED BY MAYBE A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, SENDING THEM TO A NORTHERN CITY, NEW YORK, CHICAGO, ET CETERA, WHICH HAS NOW KIND OF CHANGED THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT AND DYNAMIC AROUND HOW PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THESE MIGRANTS.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT SHIFT AND HOW MUCH IT'S CHANGED THE CONVERSATION, EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THEY HAD MORE PROGRESSIVE POLITICS ON IMMIGRATION?

>> I THINK THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS' DECISION -- THIS BEGAN IN THE SPRING OF 2022 -- TO BUS MIGRANTS TO BLUE CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, DENVER, WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, CHICAGO, AND TO DO SO SPECIFICALLY WITH THE AIM OF CAUSING CHAOS.

IN OTHER WORDS, NOT COORDINATING WITH LOCAL OFFICIALS, WITH STATE OFFICIALS.

LURING PEOPLE ON THE BUSES WITH PROMISES OF JOBS THAT DON'T MATERIALIZE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRIP.

THIS DRASTICALLY CHANGED HOW DEMOCRATS HAVE COME TO THINK ABOUT THE BORDER.

NOW AS BLUE CITIES ARE FACING REAL ECONOMIC STRAIN AND HUMANITARIAN NEEDS, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FRUSTRATION AMONG STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T COME TO THEIR DEFENSE AND THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM AT THE BORDER THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH.

IT'S INCREDIBLY STRIKING TO SEE HOW FAR DEMOCRATS HAVE STARTED TO SHIFT ON THIS ISSUE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

ALMOST DIRECTLY AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THIS POLITICAL STUNT COMING OUT OF TEXAS.

>> THE PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, OF COURSE, IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS.

THIS WAS A HUGE CAMPAIGN ISSUE FOR HIM THE FIRST TIME AROUND.

THIS TIME AROUND, HE IS PLAYING ON THE DYNAMICS THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

HE CALLED THIS POTENTIAL SENATE COMPROMISE A DEATH WISH FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID AT A FOX NEWS TOWN HALL EARLIER THIS YEAR.

>> WE HAVE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HERE.

IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE.

DID YOU SEE IN NEW YORK CITY WHERE THEY ARE GETTING THE REGULAR STUDENTS OUT AND PUTTING MIGRANTS IN THEIR PLACE?

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THE LARGEST DEPORTATION EFFORT IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY.

WE ARE BRINGING EVERYBODY BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

>> JONATHAN, A QUICK FACT CHECK.

IS THIS HAVING A PRESSURE ON THE LOCAL ECONOMIES IN THESE CITIES?

>> WELL, THERE'S A SORT OF TRAGIC IRONY IN THIS.

IN FACT, ALL ACROSS THE CITIES WHERE MIGRANTS ARE ARRIVING, THERE ARE LABOR NEEDS.

IN FACT, PEOPLE -- EMPLOYERS ARE LOOKING TO HIRE PEOPLE.

DO YOU HAVE, IN AT RTHE ARRIVAL THE MIGRANTS, A WILLING AND ABLE WORKFORCE.

THE PROBLEMS ARE TECHNICAL.

THE PROBLEMS CONSIST IN MAKING SURE THAT THESE NEW ARRIVALS HAVE THE ABILITY TO WORK.

GET WORK AUTHORIZATION.

PART OF WHAT IS SLOWING THAT DOWN IS GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY.

IT'S PARTISAN POLITICS.

THIS IS COMING BACK TO THE SAME THEME WITH TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS.

THIS NOTION SOMEHOW THAT BY TALKING TOUGH THE REPUBLICANS ARE MORE ORDINARERORDERLY IS NO WRONG BUT WE HAVE SEEN IT DEMONSTRATED IN RECENT HISTORY JUST HOW WRONG THIS IS.

WHEN TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT, YOU SAW THE HARSHEST POLICIES WE HAVE WITNESSES, SEPARATING PARENTS FROM CHILDREN, IN AN EFFORT TO DETER MIGRANTS FROM COMING.

WHAT HAPPENED WITHIN A YEAR OF THAT?

RECORD NUMBERS OF NEW ARRIVALS AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

TOUGHNESS ALONE, TOUGH TALK DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO COVER WHAT THE NEEDS ACTUALLY ARE.

>> I WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID THERE.

I THINK UPWARDS OF 1,000 MIGRANT CHILDREN ARE STILL FUNDAMENTALLY SEPARATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES IN WHAT WAS BILLED AT THE TIME AS SOME KIND OF ACTIVE DETERRENT.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE ENCOUNTERED IN YOUR REPORTING.

CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE CAUGHT IN THIS BIND?

AS WE SAID, WE ARE DEALING WITH FAMILIES, DEALING WITH PEOPLE LEAVING FOR EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> ONE OF THE MAIN FIGURES IN MY BOOK IS A WOMAN IN HER LATE 30s FROM HONDURAS WHO CAME TO THE UNITED STATES FLEEING VIOLENCE IN HONDURAS IN 2017.

THIS WAS IN SEPTEMBER OF 2017.

AT A MOMENT ACTUALLY WHEN THAT FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY WAS BEING TESTED OUT IN A CLANDESTINE WAY IN THE EL PASO BORDER WAY.

SHE WAS APPREHENDED IN NEW MEXICO.

SHE WAS ACSEPARATED FROM HER CHILDREN.

NO ONE UNDERSTOOD THERE WAS A POLICY TO DO THIS.

SHE SUFFERED ESSENTIALLY IN PRIVATE WITH NO LIFE LINE ON THE OUTSIDE.

WITNESSES THE EARLIEST DAYS OF THESE FAMILY SEPARATION CASES FROM INSIDE A DETENTION CENTER IN EL PASO.

SHE GATHERED THE NAMES OF OTHER WOMEN WHO HAD BEEN SEPARATED FROM CHILDREN.

SHE WROTE THEM DOWN.

SHE MAILED THEM OUT OF THE FACILITY TO LOCAL LAWYERS, TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, TO ANYONE WHO MIGHT RECEIVE HER MAIL.

SHE EVENTUALLY GOT DEPORTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BACK TO HONDURAS.

SHE TRAVELED THROUGH MEXICO, REACHED THE SOUTHERN BORDER AGAIN, BECAUSE HER FAMILY WAS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SHE WINDS UP IN 2021 BEING ONE OF THE FIRST FAMILIES REUNITED UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORT TO PIECE TOGETHER WHAT HAPPENED.

THAT'S HER ARC AND A WINDOW INTO THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OF IMMIGRATION POLICY AT THE BORDER.

>> WE MENTIONED EARLIER THE BACKLOG IN IMMIGRATION COURTS.

WE TALKED ABOUT THESE POLICY SHIFTS.

NOW THIS REAL EMPHASIS ON WHAT PEOPLE CALL DETERRENCE, WHICH I WANT TO UNDERLINE, DOES IT WORK?

>> MY EXPERIENCE IS THESE KINDS OF TOUGH POLICIES AT THE BORDER TEND TO SHIFT HOW SOMEONE GAMES OUT THE QUESTION OF CROSSING, BUT IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THEIR CALCULUS IN TERMS OF THEIR NEED TO COME HERE AND FLEE TO SAFETY AND OPPORTUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT WE WATCH TIME AFTER TIME ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE IS THIS IDEA THAT DETERRENCE SOMEHOW WILL SAVE THE BROADER SYSTEM FROM WHAT IS A GLOBAL PHENOMENON.

WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A MOMENT OF GENUINE MASS MIGRATION, THE LIKES WE HAVEN'T SEEN SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

THE IDEA THAT BORDER POLICY IS GOING TO MANAGE THIS ALMOST WORLD HISTORICAL FLOW, IT'S WRONG.

IT REALLY ENDS UP PERPETUATING THE PROBLEM.

>> THIS IS PART OF A GLOBAL ISSUE.

AND ALSO AS YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR WRITING, POST-PANDEMIC, THERE ARE FLOWS THAT KICKED OFF AS WELL THAT I DON'T THINK PEOPLE FULLY UNDERSTOOD HOW THEY WOULD AFFECT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY COMPLEX FACTORS.

THE POLITICAL CONVERSATION ADMITS NONE OF THEM INTO THE DEBATE.

IT'S EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING.

WE HAVE LIVED SOME OF THE RECENT EVENTS THAT WOULD EXPLAIN SOME OF THE FLOWS.

IN POLITICS, THERE'S REALLY NO ALLOWANCE TO BE MADE FOR WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING.

HOW COVID AFFECTED ECONOMIES IN SOUTH AMERICA.

HOW POLITICAL PROBLEMS IN VENEZUELA UPROOTED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SINCE 2015.

HOW YOU HAVE THIS PROBLEM AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER PENT UP IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT KEPT THROUGH SPECIFIC POLICIES SORT OF OUT THE SAIGHT AND MIND FROM THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION.

ALL OF THE FORCES WERE IN EFFECT.

EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS, PEOPLE FLEEING THE EFFECTS AND RAVAGES OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

ALL OF THIS HAS SNOWBALLED.

TO ACT AS THOUGH THIS WERE ONLY A QUESTION OF ADMINISTERING A TOUGHER SYSTEM AT THE BORDER IS TO MISS THE ENTIRE CONTEXT IN WHICH THIS SITUATION IS PLAYING OUT.

>> YOU HAVE U.S. PRESIDENT BIDEN TALKING ABOUT SHUTTING DOWN THE BORDER.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE LISTENING FOR?

WE'RE NOW IN A CAMPAIGN YEAR.

CLEARLY, WE'RE NOT LISTENING FOR A VOTE OPN LEN GISLATION.

>> TWO THINGS IN RESPONSE.

THE FIRST IS, TO MY MIND, WHAT THE FAILURE OF THIS SENATE BILL MEANS IS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS NOT GETTING MONEY THAT IT DOES NEED TO UP RESOURCES AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

THAT IS A BIG OPEN QUESTION THAT'S GONE ESSENTIALLY UNADDRESSED IN WASHINGTON.

WHICH IS, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REQUESTED $14 BILLION TO INCREASE STAFFING AT THE BORDER, INCREASE RESOURCES TO RELIEVE SOME OF THE PRESSURE AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

NONE OF THAT IS GETTING ADDRESSED.

I'M NOT SURE THAT ANY OF THE ACUTE STRESSES THE ADMINISTRATION IS FACING ARE GOING TO GO AWAY.

I THINK BASICALLY THE PLACES TO LOOK TO SEE HOW THIS WILL PLAY OUT, HOW THIS WILL AFFECT THE CAMPAIGN, ARE IN BLUE CITIES WHERE WE SEE THE RUNOFF OF THE UNADDRESSED PROBLEM.

WHEN THE PRESIDENT TALKS ABOUT SHUTTING DOWN THE BORDER, IT SHOULD BE SAID, IT'S NOTABLE FOR A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT WHO CAMPAIGNED ON THE OPPOSITE, ON THE IDEA HE WAS GOING TO REVERSE THE INHUMANITY OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND RESTORE ASYLUM AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

WHEN YOU SEE HIM UNDER THIS PRESSURE TO FEEL THAT HE NEEDS TO RUSH OUT AHEAD OF THE SENATE NEGOTIATORS TO MAKE PERFECTLY CLEAR THAT HE WOULD BE TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER AND HE IS WILLING TO SUSPEND ASYLUM, I THINK IT BETRAYS THE BROADER SENSE IN WASHINGTON OF DESPERATION THAT YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS DELIBERATELY SABOTAGING THE SITUATION, TRYING TO MAKE IT WORSE AND MORE OCHAOTIC TO HAVE IT TO CAMPAIGN ON.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY HANDLE WHAT SOME OF THE HUMAN NEEDS ARE AT THE BORDER AT BLUE CITIES.

>> JONATHAN BLITZER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS CONTEXT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW, MONEY FOR UKRAINE WAS INCLUDED IN THAT FAILED BORDER DEAL.

A SEPARATE AID PACKAGE IS POTENTIALLY ADVANCING IN THE SENATE.

IT'S ANOTHER DELAY AFTER MONTHS OF PLEADING BY KYIV WHERE THE SITUATION IS DIRE.

ACCORDING TO THE FINANCIAL TIMES, THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER IS TELLING ALLIES HIS MILITARY IS OUTGUNNED, BARELY ABLE TO FIRE MORE THAN 2,000 SHELLS A DAY.

THEY NEED AT LEAST THREE TIMES THAT.

RUSSIA'S PRESIDENT SEEMS CONTENT TO WAIT OUT UKRAINE'S ALLIES AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE WOBBLING PUBLIC SENTIMENT IN THE U.S. WITH RIGHT WING COMMENTATOR TUCKER CARLSON.

JOINING ME NOW IS NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, A RUSSIAN HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR WHO IS THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF A PREVIOUS RUSSIAN LEADER, KHRUSHCHEV.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THE FIRST PART OF THIS SO-CALLED INTERVIEW, EVEN PUTIN MOCKED TUCKER CARLSON IN THIS CONVERSATION SAYING, YOU ARE SITTING THROUGH MY HISTORY LESSON.

WHAT HISTORY WAS HE RECOUNTING?

HE DOES IT A LOT.

WHAT WAS IT THAT HE SPENT HIS TIME ON?

>> WELL, I'M NOT GOING TO REPEAT IT.

IT'S LONG AND TEDIOUS AND 1,000 YEARS.

PUTIN LOVES TO BE THAT KIND OF HISTORIAN THAT IN HIS SPARE TIME LOOKS AT HISTORY AND KNOWS IT BETTER THAN ANYBODY.

HE BEGAN WITH THE ORIGINS OF RUSSIA IN THE 1st CENTURY -- NO, NOT 1st.

900 SOMETHING.

JUST WENT ON AND ON AND ON.

IT WAS INTERESTING THAT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH TUCKER CARLSON WAS THAT HE WANTED AN INTERVIEW.

I AM GOING TO TELL THINK LONG STORY.

IN FACT, HE IMMEDIATELY SAID, DO YOU WANT TO SHOW, YOU WANT A SERIOUS CONVERSATION?

TUCKER CARLSON IS A VERY -- HE SEEMED LIKE A VERY OBEDIENT PUPPY.

TELL ME ALL YOU NEED TO SAY.

IT WAS A LITTLE COMICAL.

IN RUSSIA, EVERYBODY GOT USED TO THIS LONG AND TEDIOUS HISTORY LESSONS BEGAN.

I THINK FOR THE AMERICAN AND GLOBAL AUDIENCE, THAT WAS A LITTLE DAUNTING THE FIRST 20, 40 MINUTES OF THIS.

IN AN INTERVIEW WAS A SHOW OF PUTIN'S STRENGTH.

TUCKER CARLSON CERTAINLY PLAYED INTO THIS, HIMSELF CREATING A BIT OF A PR MOMENT BEING KICKED OUT OF FOX NEWS AND NOW DOING TWITTER.

SUDDENLY, HE IS A GLOBAL JOUR JOURNALIST.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT HOW PUTIN VERY MUCH IS CONSTANTLY TRYING TO HAMMER HOME HIS NARRATIVE OF HISTORY, PART OF HIS PROPAGANDA.

WHY DO YOU THINK THERE WAS ANY POINT TO DOING AN INTERVIEW LIKE THIS?

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE MOMENT WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE?

IS THERE SOMETHING HE SENSES ABOUT DOMESTIC POLITICS THAT HE COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF?

>> OF COURSE.

IT'S ALL OF THE ABOVE.

THE WAR IN UKRAINE, YOU JUST SAID IN YOUR LEAD THAT UKRAINE IS FACING SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

ZELENSKYY, THE PRESIDENT, JUST FIRED HIS RATHER WELL RESPECTED GENERAL OF THE UKRAINIAN FORCES.

WE KNOW THAT THERE'S SOME TROUBLE AT THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE DIDN'T WORK OUT AS EXPECTED.

PUTIN DOES FEEL THIS IS HIS MOMENT.

HE WANTS TO REMIND EVERYBODY HE IS WILLING TO NEGOTIATE.

BUT HERE HE IS GOING TO STAND HIS GROUND FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

WHAT A CONVENIENT MOMENT FOR AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST, THOSE WHO RECOGNIZE TUCKER CARLSON THINK HE IS AN IMPORTANT JOURNALIST, NOT FOR THE REST.

I DON'T THINK IN RUSSIA THEY UNDERSTAND THIS DISTINCTION.

WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST?

SUDDENLY, THE AMERICAN JOURNALIST COMES AND WANTS TO GIVE -- WANTS TO GIVE A FAIR PICTURE OF WHAT RUSSIA IS, WHAT PUTIN'S UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY IS.

HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME.

FOR THOSE OF US WHO LISTEN TO HIM EVERY TIME HE SPEAKS, THERE'S VERY LONG HISTORY LESSONS.

IT'S JUST PART OF THE -- PART OF HIS AGENDA.

THE WHOLE INTERVIEW WAS KIND OF A STORY OF HOW RUSSIA WAS ALWAYS UNRECOGNIZED, ALWAYS A VICTIM OF THE WEST.

FINALLY, NOW, WITH THE GREAT PUTIN, HE CAN SPEAK TO ALL OF THAT.

RESPOND TO ALL OF THAT.

HE WANTED, SUPPOSEDLY, TO SAY TO THE WORLD THAT I STAND HERE AND YOU DEAL WITH ME THE WAY I AM, OR BASICALLY MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.

>> NINA, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN -- WITHIN RUSSIA.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS, FOR INSTANCE AT ONE POINT A CANDIDATE WHO WAS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

PUTIN ALWAYS TRIES TO PROJECT NOT JUST STRENGTH BUT STABILITY AT HOME AND PAPERS OVER WHAT'S GOING ON.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHETHER THAT CANDIDACY WAS SEEN AS A GENUINE ONE?

>> IT WASN'T REALLY SEEN AS A BE GENUINE ONE.

HE WAS NOT WELL-KNOWN.

HE WAS WELL-KNOWN IN JOUR JOURNALISTIC CIRCLES BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN IN POLITICS FOR MANY YEARS.

HIS STATEMENTS THAT HE SAYS, I'M OPENLY AN ANTI-PUTIN CANDIDATE, I AM FOR PEACE AND PEACE IS NOT REALLY A BIG WORD IN RUSSIA.

YOU CAN GO TO PRISON IF YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT PEACE, JUST IN CASE YOU SHOULD BE WANTING YOU WANT A GLOBAL WAR OR SOME SORT OF VICTORY IN UKRAINE.

SO HE WAS LIKE THAT.

I WANT TO OPEN ELECTIONS.

I DON'T WANT RUSSIA'S ISOLATION.

FOR THIS ACTUALLY PEOPLE BRANDED OR CAN GO TO PRISON.

SUDDENLY, HE IS OPEN WITH THIS.

HE COLLECTS SIGNATURES.

THAT WAS AN IDEA FOR THE KREMLIN THAT WE'RE GOING TO PRETEND IT'S A DEMOCRATIC FORMULA.

BIG WORD FOR THE ELECTION -- NOT ELECTIONS, FOR PUTIN BECOMING PRESIDENT AGAIN IN MARCH 2024, NEXT MONTH, IS THAT IT SHOULD BE -- IT SHOULD LOOK LEGITIMATE.

HE WAS PART OF THAT EFFORT.

I THINK WHAT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, THEY DIDN'T REALLY COUNT ON HOW MUCH PROTEST, INSIDE PROTEST, THE SILENT MAJORITY THAT IS AFRAID TO SPEAK OUT BUT CAN SPEAK OUT IN THOSE LINES SIGNING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE HOPE.

IF YOU TRANSLATE HIS NAME, IT'S A NAME THAT SIGNIFIES HOPE.

HOPE FOR OTHER ALTERNATIVE TO PUTIN IS POSSIBLE.

THE MINUTE IT BECAME CLEAR HE COULD BE A REAL FORCE, WE KNOW THAT -- I THINK YESTERDAY HIS SIGNATURES WERE DEEMED UNACCEPTABLE.

HE WAS BANNED FROM RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

THE KREMLIN TRIED.

THE MINUTE IT HAD A FEAR THAT SOMEHOW PUTIN MAY BE UNDERMINED, THEY IMMEDIATELY TURNED ON THE MACHINE AND SAID IT'S ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO TRY AGAIN.

I THINK IT ACTUALLY BECOMES A PROBLEM FOR PUTIN.

THERE IS A PROTEST BREWING SOMEWHERE IN RUSSIA.

WE DON'T KNOW WHEN IT WILL COME OUT.

IT MIGHT COME OUT SOON ENOUGH.

>> YOU SAID BREWING SOMEWHERE.

YOU HAVE TALKED IN THE PAST ABOUT KIND OF VIOLENCE THAT MAKES ITS WAY THROUGH THE CULTURE, THAT FLOWS FROM THE ATMOSPHERE PUTIN CREATED.

>> YES, IT IS.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU SEE EVERY DAY.

PEOPLE -- THERE'S REPORTS OF PEOPLE FIGHTING IN SHOPPING MALLS.

REPORTS ON KIDS FIGHTING OTHER KIDS.

PEOPLE ATTACKING EACH OTHER ON THE SUBWAY.

WITH THE TWO YEARS OF WAR AND WITH THIS VERY MILITANT RHETORIC COMING OUT OF THE KREMLIN, COMING OUT OF TV PROPAGANDA, IS THAT WE ARE GOING TO DEFEAT EVERYBODY.

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR PRIDE AND WHATNOT, EVEN IF THERE'S ALSO AN IDEA THAT RUSSIA IS STABLE, I THINK THE WORD YOU USE, RUSSIA IS STABLE, THAT REALITY IT IS NOT.

YOU CAN ONLY PRETEND SO MUCH.

IT'S KIND OF A VERY SCHIZOPHRENIC REALITY THAT ON THE SURFACE, IT SEEMS STABLE.

UNDER IS HORRORS OF A COUNTRY AT WAR THAT PRETENDS THAT IT'S NOT AT WAR, IS REALLY BREWING.

AS I SAID, EVERY TIME, ESPECIALLY SOMEWHERE FAR AWAY FROM MOSCOW, THE PROTESTS OR IN MOSCOW A FEW WEEKS AGO, THERE WAS A PROTEST OF WIVES AND MOTHERS WHOSE SONS AND HUSBANDS ARE AT WAR.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ROTATED BACK.

THE WOMEN WERE NOT ARRESTED, MOST OF THEM.

THE JOURNALISTS WHO COVERED IT WERE.

THERE'S ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THE STATE IS GOING TO THREATEN THOSE THAT TRY TO SPEAK UP.

ONCE AGAIN, HE SHOWS THAT EVEN WHEN THE THREATS ARE THERE, PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT AFRAID ULTIMATELY TO GO AND SAY, WE DON'T WANT THAT.

>> NINA, I WANT TO ASK ONE MORE THING.

THE NODS IN THE INTERVIEW TOWARDS THE JOURNALISTS WHO ARE BEING HELD IN RUSSIA.

WERE THERE ANY LITTLE SIGNS OR CUES THERE MIGHT BE MOVEMENT IN THAT AREA?

>> WHAT I HEARD WAS THAT PUTIN WAS SORT OF NON-COMMITTAL.

HE IS NEVER COMMITTAL.

HE DID SAY THAT, I WANT THE JOURNALISTS TO GO BACK TO THE MOTHERLAND.

HE REITERATED HE IS -- EVEN GERSHKOVICH WAS A CIA AGENT OR MAYBE HE WAS WARM-HEARTED OR SOMETHING.

HE DID SAY THAT THE -- WE CONTINUE WORK IN THAT AREA.

I THINK FOR ME, THAT WAS A SIGN OF THE WORK BEING DONE, THAT MAY RESULT IN SOMETHING.

I THINK WHAT HE ALSO SAID IS -- IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TO HEAR.

THIS IS SHOULD BE DONE QUIETLY.

HIS RUSSIAN HAS BEEN SAYING THAT.

WHEN THE AMERICANS START TALKING ABOUT POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS OR TALKING, BRING THE PUBLIC OPINION INTO IT, THE RUSSIANS IMMEDIATELY CLOSE DOWN AND SAY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DEAL WITH IT.

IF ANYTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE, IT NEEDS TO BE DONE QUIETLY.

THAT'S WHAT I RECOMMEND, WITHOUT ADVERTISING ANY POTENTIAL SIGNS AND MOVES AT ALL.

>> NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW WE TURN TO THE VALUE OF STORYTELLING.

MARK RUFFALO HAS NOTCHED HIS FOURTH SUPPORTING ACTIVE NOMINATION FOR HIS PERFORMANCE IN THE FILM "POOR THINGS."

IN 2016, HE WAS NOMINATED FOR HIS ROLE IN THE THRILLER "SPOTLIGHT" WHICH BROUGHT HOME THE BEST PICTURE PRIZE.

IT TELLS THE TRUE STORY OF THE BOSTON GLOBE TEAM THAT REVEALED THE COVERUP OF THE CHILD SECX ABUSE CRISIS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

THE CLOSURE OF LOCAL NEWS OUTLETS AROUND THE WORLD, THIS IS A FILM THAT REMINDS US OF THE IMPORTANCE OF JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY.

WE WANTED TO DIG BACK IN THE ARCHIVES AND BRING YOU THIS INTERVIEW.

>> WELCOME.

THIS IS REALLY AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY.

I WANT TO FIRST START BY ASKING YOU, MARK, WHAT DREW YOU TO WANT TO PORTRAY THIS CHARACTER IN THIS FILM?

>> IT STARTED WITH THE SCRIPT.

I FOUND IT -- I FOUND IT REALLY BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN AND POWERFUL.

THE CHARACTER IS REALLY KIND OF THE ESSENTIAL GREAT JOURNALIST.

WE RARELY GET TO SEE JOURNALISTS THAT ARE REALLY GETTING THE JOB DONE IN MOVIES.

WE RARELY GET TO SEE HOW POWERFUL JOURNALISM CAN BE WHEN IT ACTUALLY IS DOING WHAT WE WANT IT TO DO.

I THOUGHT THAT THIS STORY AND THIS CHARACTER WAS A REAL WAY TO OPEN UP THIS DEBATE, NOT EVEN A DEBATE, BUT SHED LIGHT ON THESE ABUSES THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON SO LONG AND BEEN REALLY NOTHING MORE THAN COVERED UP.

>> TOM, I COULD LISTEN FOR HOURS HOW GREAT IT IS TO HAVE GREAT JOURNALISM.

I BELIEVE THE SAME.

WHAT SPARKED YOUR INTEREST, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CORNER OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM?

>> AS A WRITER AND DIRECTOR, LIKE MARK, I FOUND THE MATERIAL INCREDIBLY COMPELLING.

IT'S A VERY ENTERTAINING STORY ABOUT A VERY DARK MATTER.

I THOUGHT APPROACHING THIS MATTER THROUGH THE EYES OF THE JOURNALIST WAS REALLY EXCITING.

NO ONE REALLY KNEW THAT STORY ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION AND HOW THEY BROKE THIS.

THIS WAS A LOCAL STORY IN BOSTON.

IT HAS GLOBAL IMPACT.

IT'S GOING ON TODAY.

THE POPE'S COMMISSION JUST WATCHED THE FILM.

THERE'S CONVERSATION COMING OUT OF THAT.

I FELT IT WAS ONE OF THOSE FEW FILMS HAD THE ABILITY TO BE ABOUT SURVIVORS AND WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED AND WHAT THEY CONTINUE TO EXPERIENCE AND ALSO JOURNALISM.

IT SEEMED LIKE ONE OF THOSE PROJECTS, IF WE COULD DO IT RIGHT IT WOULD HAVE A GREAT IMPACT.

>> I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ACTUALLY THINK MIGHT BE THE RESULT OF THE FILM AND OF THE COMMISSION THAT SCREENED IT IN THE VATICAN.

WERE YOU SURPRISED?

MARK, YOU TWEETED ABOUT IT.

DO YOU BOTH THINK, DO YOU HOPE, ARE YOU SKEPTICAL THAT IT WILL HAVE A LASTING EFFORT IN ENSURING THE TRANSPARENCY THAT EVERYBODY WANTS BUT ALSO REALLY HOLDING THOSE GUILTY AND ACCOUNTABLE ACCOUNTABLE.

>> TO BE TOTALLY HONEST, ALARMING THINGS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST FEW DAYS.

ONE OF THE VICTIMS THAT SITS ON THE POPE'S COUNCIL FOR THE A ABUSED WAS BASICALLY PUT ON A LEAVE OF ABSENCE WITHOUT HIM KNOWING IT.

IT DOESN'T BODE WELL.

HE FEELS THAT RIGHT NOW THE CHURCH IS ENGAGING IN THE SAME COVER UP.

THEY ARE DOING A NICE PR PUSH TO QUELL THE PRESSURE THAT THIS MOVIE IS CREATING.

NOT REALLY GOING THROUGH WITH THE STEPS THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO RIGHT THE WRONGS.

THEY HAVEN'T REALLY PUT TOGETHER THE TRIBUNAL THE POPE PROMISED WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO START HOLDING THE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THESE CRIMES THAT SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> I THINK IT'S CLEAR THEY MADE SOME PROGRESS ON THIS.

THEY MADE SOME PROGRESS.

I THINK ACTIVISTS WOULD CERTAINLY BE CALLING FOR MORE ACTION AND MORE TRANSPARENCY.

PETER SAUNDERS, WHO IS A SURVIVOR, WAS ASKED TO STEP OFF THE COUNCIL, BECAUSE HE IS MAKING -- HE IS CRYING FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY AND MORE ACTION AND FASTER, FASTER, FASTER, AS THE STAKES OF THE WELFARE OF CHILDREN ARE OBVIOUSLY -- THERE'S NO GREATER STAKE.

I THINK THIS IS -- WHAT'S MOST EXCITING IS THE FILM IS CREATING SOME DISCUSSION, OBVIOUSLY.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR.

THIS PLATFORM IS VERY, VERY NECESSARY RIGHT NOW.

>> I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU A CLIP FROM THE FILM WHICH GOES TO THE ISSUE OF TRANSPARENCY AND URGENCY.

THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT IT.

>> IT'S TIME.

IT'S TIME.

THEY KNEW AND THEY LET IT HAPPEN TO KIDS!

OKAY?

IT COULD HAVE BEEN YOU.

IT COULD HAVE BEEN ME.

IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANY OF US.

WE GOT TO NAIL THESE SCRUMBAGS.

WE HAVE TO SHOW NOBODY CAN GET AWAY WITH THIS.

A PRIEST, A CARDINAL, A POPE.

>> THAT IS TRULY DRAMATIC.

MARK, YOUR CHARACTER IS IMPLORING THE HEAD OF THE INVESTIGATIVE UNIT TO GO WITH THE STORY.

WHILE WE TALK ABOUT THE GREAT JOB JOURNALISTS DID IN EVENTUALLY UNCOVERING THIS, PARTICULARLY "THE BOSTON GLOBE," THERE WAS A TIME, TOO LONG OF A TIME THAT JOURNALISTS KNEW THAT SOMETHING WAS UP AND ACTUALLY SORT OF, IF YOU LIKE, BURIED THE STORY.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE SAD PART OF THE STORY.

IT'S ALL OF US.

IT WASN'T JUST JOURNALISTS.

IT HAD LEGISLATURES, COMMUNITIES, FAMILIES IN POWER.

IT'S A PROBLEM OF ALL OF US.

IT'S ABOUT PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

CULTURALLY, WE GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE ARE READY TO HAVE A HARD DISCUSSION.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

THIS MOVIE DIDN'T JUST POP OUT OF THE BLUE.

IT CAME OUT OF A NEED FOR THE CULTURE TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME WITH THIS PARTICULAR POPE AND A GREATER ILLUMINATION HAPPENING THROUGHOUT THE WORLD ON THESE KINDS OF ISSUES.

THEY DID A GOOD JOB OF HIDING IT.

THE DAYS OF HIDING THESE KINDS OF ISSUES ARE GONE NOW.

THE INTERNET, PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO ONE ANOTHER, IT'S CREATED THIS DED DECENTRALIZED INFORMATION NEXUS THAT MAKES THESE KINDS OF STORIES HAVE A POWERFUL WAY OF BEING TOLD.

YES, IT'S A SHAME THAT HAPPENED.

HERE WE ARE TODAY.

WE KNOW THE TRUTH.

WE KNOW THE TRUTH CULTURALLY.

IT'S NO LONGER A STORY THAT'S IN A SMALL SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT NOW.

NOW WE GET TO ACT ON IT.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

>> JUST TALKING ABOUT HOW WE ALL KNEW ABOUT IT.

THERE'S A CHILLING SCENE, TOM, THAT YOU CAPTURE BRILLIANTLY OF THE CHARACTER PLAYING CARDINAL LAW TALKING TO THE CHARACTER PLAYING MARTY Y BARON, THE NEW HEAD OF "THE BOSTON GLOBE."

WE ARE STRONGER WHEN THE GREAT INSTITUTIONS WORK TOGETHER.

MARTY SAYING, NO, WE THE PRESS HAVE TO STAY APART.

THAT IS SO MUCH ABOUT SO MANY ISSUES THAT THE PRESS HAS TO DEAL WITH, INCLUDING POLITICS.

RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

I THINK IT'S WHAT MAKES THE FILM ESPECIALLY RELEVANT TODAY.

IT'S DEALING WITH ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY OF ALL INSTITUTIONS.

IT'S LETTING US KNOW WHY A FREE AND HEALTHY PRESS IS SO IMPORTANT.

IT DOES STAND APART.

IT DOES HOLD POWERFUL INDIVIDUINDIVIDUAL S INDIVIDUALS ACCOUNTABLE.

IT PROVIDES INFORMATION TO CHOOSE TO ACT OR NOT.

THAT'S WHAT THE FILM'S ASPIRING TO TALK TO AND TO SPEAK TO.

HONESTLY, IT'S WHY IT'S BEEN CONNECTING.

IT GOES BEYOND THIS ONE PARTICULAR CRIME, WHICH IS VERY HEINOUS.

ABUSE WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

IT SPEAKS TO ALL INSTITUTIONS TODAY.

ULTIMATELY ASKS THE BIGGER QUESTION, WHAT CAN WE DO?

WHAT'S MY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS AS CITIZENS?

I THINK THAT'S IN SOME WAYS AN INCREDIBLY HOPEFUL MESSAGE OF THE FILM, THAT WE CAN AFFECT CHANGE.

>> MARK RUFFALO, TOM McCARTHY, THANK YOU.

ONE FINAL WORD.

YOU HAVE SHOWN ALSO HOW INCREDIBLY PERVASIVE IT WAS.

YOU WENT WITH A SCROLL THAT WE WILL SHOW OF ALL THE TOWNS AND CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD WHERE THERE HAD BEEN THOSE SEX ABUSE ABOMINATIONS AGAINST CHILDREN.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AN INCREDIBLY MOVING AND POINABUSE.

>>> WITH MORE THAN 60 YEARS OF DOING THIS, CALVIN TRILLIN HAS A NEW BOOK OUT.

IT'S A COLLECTION OF THE BEST PIECES FROM HIS CAREER.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO SHARE SOME OF HIS FAVORITE ANECDOTES.

>> THANK YOU.

CALVIN TRILLIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

NICE TO BE HERE.

>> CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW BOOK.

IT HAS THAT ROLLICKING HUMOROUS FEEL THAT YOU HAVE HAD THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER.

THERE'S A SERIOUS STRAND TO IT.

YOU TALK ABOUT STARTING OFF AS A REPORTER IN THE SOUTH DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IN 1961.

YOU SAY, IF THAT HADN'T HAVE HAPPENED, YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE STAYED A REPORTER.

EXPLAIN WHY THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO YOUR CAREER.

>> PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU ARE JUST STARTING OUT, IT'S HELP IF IF YOU GET KNOWLEDGE ON ONE SUBJECT.

IN THIS CASE, IT HAPPENED TO BE AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT, THE DESEGREGATION STRUGGLE IN THE SOUTH.

THE CONFIDENCE YOU GET FROM KNOWING THAT WHAT'S ON THE PAGE IS SOMETHING THAT NOT EVERYBODY KNEW AND THAT YOU KNOW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT IT BY JUST WRITING ABOUT IT CONSTANTLY.

IN THE SOUTH, I WAS IN ATLANTA.

OCCASIONALLY, I WROTE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE, ABOUT A FOOTBALL COACH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

USUALLY, I WROTE ABOUT RACE.

I THINK THAT'S VALUABLE FOR A YOUNG REPORTER.

>> DESPITE THE FACT YOU STARTED BY COVERING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, YOU SAID YOU NEVER BECAME THAT INTERESTED IN POLITICS.

YOU WANTED TO COVER AMERICA WITHOUT BEING ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHEN TRIED TO COVER CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS.

EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU DID THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER TO KEEP YOUR FINGERS ON THE PULSE OF FUN ST STORIES IN AMERICA.

>> FOR 15 YEARS I DID A PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORKER" EVERY THREE WEEKS.

IT'S ODD, BECAUSE MAGAZINE REPORTERS WOULD SAY, HOW DO YOU KEEP UP THE PACE?

NEWSPAPER REPORTERS WOULD SAY, WHAT ELSE DO YOU DO?

DIDN'T SEEM LIKE A FULL-TIME JOB TO THEM.

I THOUGHT THAT -- I REMEMBER MY SISTER WHEN WE WERE KIDS, I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN BASEBALL.

SHE SAID, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU CARE ABOUT BASEBALL.

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME EXCEPT FOR THE SCORE.

I GOT TO THINKING A LITTLE BIT THAT WAS TRUE OF POLITICS.

PARTICULARLY AS WE ARE SEEING N NOW.

80% OR 90% OF THE COVERAGE IS WHO IS GOING TO WIN.

SOMETHING WE ALL WILL KNOW THE NIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION.

IF ALL THE REPORTERS DEFECTED TO VENEZUELA, WE WOULD STILL KNOW IT THE NIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION.

IT SEEMED TO ME LESS INTERESTING THAN STORIES ABOUT REGULAR PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE, IF MY COLLEAGUES WILL FORGIVE ME, REGULAR PEOPLE RATHER THAN THEM.

>> ONE WAISTS SOF THE WAYS YOU IT WAS THROUGH FOOD.

YOU LOVED GREAT LOCAL RESTAURANTS.

A WEEK AGO I WENT DOWN HERE TO NEW ORLEANS.

I THOUGHT OF YOU.

YOU USED THE RESTAURANTS AS A WAY OF UNDERSTANDING COLORFUL PEOPLE.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS ONE.

>> IT WAS SAID THAT -- THE LEGEND IN NEW ORLEANS WAS THAT THE ORIGINAL WAS AL CAPONE'S CHEF.

THAT REALLY WASN'T TRUE.

THEY DID COME FROM ONE OF THOSE SUBURBS AROUND CHICAGO WHERE FUNERALS ARE ATTENDED BY FBI PEOPLE IN CARS WITH CAMERAS.

AL CAPONE -- HE WASN'T AL CAPONE'S CHEF.

WHEN SOMEBODY DID A REVIEW OF THE RESTAURANT, THEY SAID, I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY, BECAUSE I CAN'T READ.

THAT WAS A GREAT PROTECTION FOR A RESTAURANT PROPRIETOR.

THEY STUCK TO WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

I WAS FOND OF IT.

>> I WILL MENTION THAT I WAS A REPORTER WHO A STORY WHEN THEY SAID, DON'T WORRY, I DON'T READ.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I HAD FORGOTTEN THAT.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE STORY, OF COURSE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

WE CUT YOU OUT FOR SPACE.

>> YEAH, SPACE REASON.

>> A COUPLE WORDS TOO LONG.

>> YOU CALL YOUR BOOK "THE LEDE."

YOU SPELL IT THE WAY WE WOULD SPELL IT IN THE NEWSPAPER.

I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT I THINK MAY BE YOUR FAVORITE.

YOU PUT IT IN THE BOOK.

IT'S FROM A LOUISIANA NEWSPAPER.

I WILL READ IT.

MAYBE YOU CAN PARSE IT FOR ME.

A VETERINARIAN PRESCRIBED ANTIBIOTICS MONDAY TO A CAMEL THAT LIVES BEHIND A PARISH TRUCK STOP AFTER A FLORIDA WOMAN TOLD LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS SHE BIT THE 600 POUND ANIMAL'S GENITALIA AFTER IT SAT ON HER WHEN SHE AND HER HUSBAND ENTERED ITS ENCLOENCLOUS ENCLOSURE TO RETRIEVE THEIR DEAF DOG.

>> I LOVE THAT PARAGRAPH.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'M PARTICULAR LY ENTRANCED WITH IS THAT IT'S ONE SENTENCE.

HE MANAGES TO GET THAT STORY -- WHEN MY FRIEND JAMES SEND IT TO ME, AT FIRST I COULDN'T READ IT WITHOUT BREAKING OUT LAUGHING.

I'M FINALLY ABLE TO DO THAT.

THE DEAF DOG IS WHAT GOT ME AT THE END.

IT SEEMS TO COME OUT OF LEFT FIELD SOMEWHERE.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT LEDE.

YOU DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO READ THE STORY.

YOU COULD -- I IMAGINE D THE FLORIDA WOMAN AND HER HUSBAND, THE FLORIDA MAN, AND SAYING, HERE, FIDO.

BUT THE DOG IS DEAF.

CAN'T HEAR.

ALSO THE FACT THAT NOBODY TALKS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WOMAN BEING SAT ON BY A 600 POUND CAMEL.

I THOUGHT IT WAS -- I GUESS IT REMAINS MY FAVORITE LEDE ANYBODY EVER WROTE.

>> SOME OF THE GREAT PIECES IN THIS BOOK ARE PROFILES OF COLORFUL, LEGENDARY JOURNALISTS.

LET ME THROW A COUPLE OUT.

WHAT ABOUT RUSSELL BAKER?

>> RUSSELL BAKER IS A HERO OF MINE.

THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT HE WROTE BOTH SERIOUS COLUMNS AND HUMOROUS COLUMNS.

HE DIDN'T HAVE TO LABEL THEM.

IT SORT OF BECAME OBVIOUS AS YOU WENT.

I THINK I MENTIONED WHEN RUSSELL WAS LIVING UPTOWN, HE WAS WALKING DOWN THE STREET, SIDEWALK, AND A POTATO FELL FROM A HIGH WINDOW IN ONE OF THE BIG BUILDINGS AND JUST MISSED HIM.

HE WROTE A COLUMN ABOUT HOW IT WOULD FEEL TO BE KILLED BY A POTATO FALLING FROM A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING.

IT WOULD BE TERRIBLE.

EVEN YOUR TRENDS WOULD GET A LITTLE SMILE OUT OF IT.

ONE TIME I WAS HAVING TROUBLE THINKING OF A COLUMN.

I SAID, I THINK I WILL TAKE A WALK.

MAYBE A POTATO WILL FALL NEAR ME.

MY WIFE SAID, RUSSELL HAS DONE THE POTATO COLUMN.

THAT'S IT.

>> THERE'S STICKY FINGER NOVASKI IN THE BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM AND HOW YOU GAVE HIM THAT NICKNAME.

>> WELL, WHEN HE ASKED ME TO WRITE A COLUMN FOR THE NATION, I SAID, HOW MUCH WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT PAYING FOR EACH COLUMN?

HE SAID, SOMETHING IN THE HIGH TWO FIGURES.

>> THIS IS VICTOR, THE EDITOR -- >> THE EDITOR OF "THE NATION."

HE SAID, WE HAVE BEEN PAYING 65.

I SAID, THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE MIDDLE TWO FIGURES TO ME.

HE HAD A MAGAZINE WHICH PAID EVEN LESS THAN "THE NATION."

I SENT HIM A PIECE AND THEY SAID THEY WERE PUBLISHING IT.

THEY SENT ME A BILL.

"THE NATION" WAS AN IMPROVEMENT.

WHEN I WROTE A POEM -- I WAS INSPIRED BY JOHN SUNUNU.

I LOVE THAT NAME SUNUNU.

I LOVE THE FACT HE THOUGHT HE WAS THE SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM.

I WROTE A POEM CALLED, IF YOU KNEW WHAT SUNUNU AND SENT IT TO VICTOR.

HE SAID, WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO ONE OF THESE EVERY ISSUE?

HE WAS WILLING TO PAY ME THE SAME AS THEY PAY ME FOR A COLUMN, EVEN THOUGH A POEM WAS SHORTER.

I SAID, IT'S $100 COMING IN, RAIN OR SHINE.

THEN, OF COURSE, I REALIZED THAT OTHER PERIODICALS PAID POEMS BY THE LINE, LIKE "THE NEW YORKER KYORKER YORKER."

I WAS GETTING $100.

IF I WROTE A FOUR-LINE POEM ABOUT LLOYD BEN SON, IT WAS THE MAN IS KNOWN FOR QUO PRO QUIDNESS.

IN TEXAS, THAT'S HOW PEOPLE DO BUSINESS.

IT'S MORE THAN "THE NEW YORKER."

>> HOW YOU HAVE SEEN THE PERCEPTION OF JOURNALISTS CHANGE?

>> I THINK JOURNALISTS ARE MORE RESPECTABLE NOW.

I THINK -- >> IS THAT A GOOD OR BAD THING?

>> PROBABLY BAD.

I THINK NOW IF SOME REASONABLY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN IS TOLD THAT HIS DAUGHTER IS ABOUT TO MARRY A REPORTER, I DON'T THINK HE TRIES TO INTERFERE AT THIS POINT.

I THINK ANY TIME YOU HAVE TOO MUCH TO PROTECT, IT SORT OF TAKES AWAY FROM HOW CANDID YOU ARE.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY NOT A GOOD THING.

I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS IT CHANGED IS JOURNALISTS HAVE CHANGED IS THAT THERE ARE FEWER, OR MORE IF YOU COUNT BLOGGERS AND PEOPLE IN THE BASEMENTS.

IN THEIR UNDERWEAR, BOXER SHORTS, DOING BLOGS AND THAT.

THERE ARE MORE JOURNALISTS THAN THERE EVER WERE IF THAT'S THE CUTOFF.

>> THE BOOKENDS THE WAY YOUR CAREER BEGAN, WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

THERE'S A WONDERFUL PICTURE OF YOU IN 1961 WITH JOHN LEWIS IN THE BIRMINGHAM BUS STATION.

TELL ME, WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING IN THE BIRMINGHAM BUS STATION AS A YOUNG REPORTER INTERVIEWING A JOHN LEWIS COVERING THE FREEDOM RIDES?

>> IT WAS EXCITING, OF COURSE.

AT LEAST ONCE OR TWICE SCARY.

I THINK I WAS TOO DUMB TO KNOW HOW SCARY IT WAS.

ONE OF THE THINGS ON THE FREEDOM RIDES IS CLAUDE SITTONS FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" WAS COVERING.

HE WAS IN THE SOUTH FOR QUITE A WHILE.

HE IS ANOTHER PERSON WHO I THOUGHT OF AS A MODEL REPORTER.

ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES, WHICH HE SAW BY BEING JUST SCRUPULOUS ABOUT EVERYTHING, WAS THAT IT WAS HARD TO TREAT THE SIDES EQUALLY.

THERE'S NO REALLY MORAL EQUIVALENCE OF THE MAN WHO WANTS TO VOTE AND THE MAN WHO BURNS HIS HOUSE DOWN BECAUSE HE WANTS TO VOTE -- BURNS THE OTHER GUY'S HOUSE DOWN.

I SAY IN THE BOOK, IT'S NOT LIKE COVERING THE MICHIGAN/OHIO STATE GAME.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU REALLY CAN'T BE ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER IF YOU ARE A REPORTER.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT COVERING DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT RUBY BRIDGES.

A FEW BLOCKS FROM HERE IN NEW ORLEANS.

A 6-YEAR-OLD, I THINK SHE WAS IN THE EARLY '60s.

DESEGREGATING THE SCHOOL THERE.

I THINK YOU MET HER AGAIN 50 YEARS LATER.

WHAT WERE YOUR FEELINGS ON THAT, THE COVERAGE OF HER AT THE TIME AND THEN SEEING HER 50 YEARS LATER?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE OTHER ASPECTS OF COVERING THINGS IN THE SOUTH IS PEOPLE HAD TO MAKE REALLY SERIOUS DECISIONS ABOUT -- RUBY BRIDGES' PARENTS HAD TO DECIDE IT WAS OKAY TO SEND HER TO THIS SCHOOL EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE WERE GOING TO BE YELLING OBSCENITIES AT HER, AND SHE'S ONLY 6 YEARS OLD.

IT WAS NOT ONLY HER COURAGE BUT THE COURAGE OF HER PARENTS.

WHEN I MET HER 50 YEARS LATER, I SAID, IT'S REALLY NICE SEEING YOU ALL GROWN UP.

AS I WAS SAYING BEFORE, IT'S COVERING REGULAR, NORMAL PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE IN IRREGULAR AND NOT NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT THAT -- YOU SAY, I WATCH THESE ORDINARY PEOPLE HAVING TO MAKE MOMENTOUS MORAL DECISIONS.

>> YEAH.

THAT IS TRUE.

AN IMMIGRANT OWNER OF A DINER THAT WAS SUDDENLY FACED WITH A SIT-IN AND WHETHER HE WAS GOING TO SEAT THEM, WHICH HE WANTED TO DO BECAUSE HE SYMPATHIZED WITH THEM, BUT DOES THAT MEAN THE END OF HIS BUSINESS AND NOT HAVING THE SUPPORT THEY NEEDED?

THOSE ARE BIG DECISIONS MADE BY EVERYDAY PEOPLE.

>> CALVIN TRILLIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> IT'S THE END OF AN AREA FOR BRITISH "VOGUE'S" EDITOR IN CHIEF.

HE FEATURED 40 STARS FROM NAOMI CAMPBELL TO JANE FONDA, BUT HE FINISHES HOW HE STARTED OVER SIX YEAR AGO, CHAMPIONING INCLUSIVITY AND DIVERSITY.

BACK IN 2022, LESS THAN A YEAR BEFORE HE ANNOUNCED HE WOULD BE ACCEPTING DOWN, CHRISTIANE ASKED HIM WHAT HE HOPED HIS LEGACY WOULD BE.

>> I'M PROUD PEOPLE WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT DIVERSITY.

THERE WAS THE OLD CONVERSATION THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR DIDN'T SELL ON COVERS.

I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE A LITTLE SOMETHING TO DO WITH CHANGING THAT PERCEPTION AND LETTING THE WORLD KNOW THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR CAN SELL MAGAZINES.

BRITISH "VOGUE" IS DOING BETTER THAN IT EVER HAS IN TERMS OF ADVERTISING.

SALES.

JUST TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE WORLD AND SAY, PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE CAN CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING AMAZING.

I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.

>> AN IMPORTANT MOMENT OF REFLECTION HERE IN THIS TIME WHEN MULTI-CULTURALISM IS RECEDING.

FASHION IS MORE THAN JUST CLOTHING.

HIS FINAL MARCH ISSUE HITS NEWSSTANDS NEXT WEEK.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EACH NIGHT, GO AHEAD AND SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.

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