>> ERIC: FULL SHOW FOR YOU TONIGHT.

WE'LL LOOK BACK AT THE HORMEL STRIKE 40 YEARS AGO AND HOW IT CHANGED THE FACE OF AUSTIN, MINNESOTA.

WE'LL REMEMBER WORLD-RENOWNED PRIMATOLOGIST JANE GOODALL.

BIRDCHICK IS BACK TO TALK FALL MIGRATION.

AND OF COURSE PLENTY OF LOCAL AND NATIONAL POLITICS.

>> Kaomi: AND WE WILL START WITH >> Cathy: AND WE WILL START WITH NATIONAL POLITICS.

IT'S FRIDAY NIGHT, AND WE'RE NEARING THE END OF DAY THREE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.

THE SENATE RECONVENED THIS AFTERNOON, AND TO NO ONE'S SURPRISE, THE SAME FEDERAL FUNDING PLANS FROM BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WERE VOTED DOWN AGAIN.

KATHRYN PEARSON TEACHES STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.

AMONG HER SPECIALITIES: THE U.S.

CONGRESS.

LARRY JACOBS HEADS UP THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POLITICS AND GOVERNANCE AT THE U OF M'S HUMPHREY SCHOOL.

WELCOME BACK, BOTH OF YOU.

GOSH, WHAT SHOULD WE TALK ABOUT?

UM, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS STANDOFF, PROFESSOR PEARSON, HOW IS THIS BEING WEAPONIZED BY BOTH SIDES?

>> OH, I MEAN, BOTH SIDES ARE TRYING TO FULLY USE THIS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AND IF YOU LOOK AT EARLY POLLING, IT LOOKS LIKE ABOUT A THIRD OF AMERICANS HINK OF REPUBLICANS ARE IN THE RIGHT.

A THIRD THINK THE DEMOCRATS ARE IN THE RIGHT AND A THIRD THINK BOTH SIDES ARE TO BLAME.

THOSE NUMBERS COULD SHIFT.

ESPECIALLY THOSE UNDECIDES.

BUT BOTH SIDES HAVE A MESSAGE.

REPUBLICANS' MESSAGE IS, HEY, WE'VE GIVEN YOU A CLEAN CONTINUING RESOLUTION THROUGH NOVEMBER 21ST AND DEMOCRATS' MESSAGE IS, HEY, SUBSIDIES FOR OVER 20 MILLION PEOPLE ARE ABOUT TO GO UP IF WE DON'T EXTEND THE SUBSIDIES FOR OBAMACARE AND WE'VE KNOWN THIS COMING AND YOU'RE NOT NEGOTIATING AND THIS IS DEMOCRATS' ONLY MECHANISM BECAUSE OF COURSE RECONCILIATION BILL -- >> Eric: WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE MARCH WHEN THE DEMOCRATS AND SENATE WENT ALONG.

>> ONE BIG THING THAT'S HAPPENED IS THE BASE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS IN REVOLT.

IF YOU LOOK BACK TO THE LAST SCHOENBERG DURING DONALD TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, 33% SAID THAT THEY THOUGHT THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD STAND UP AND ACCEPT A SCHOENBERG.

THE OTHERS FAVORED COMPROMISE.

THIS TIME AS REVERSED.

AND YOU SEE 65% OF DEMOCRATS SAYING IT'S TIME TO GO TO THE MATS.

AND EALLY STICK TO OUR PRINCIPLES AND STAND UP TO DONALD TRUMP.

SO THAT'S THE BASIC CHANGE I THINK THAT'S DRIVING.

YOU KNOW, CHUCK SCHUMER CUT A DEAL IN MARCH AND THE BACKLASH AGAINST HIM WAS FEROCIOUS.

>> Cathy: SO NOW THAT THE -- WELL, THE GOVERNMENT IS SHUT DOWN, I'M WONDERING, THE PRESIDENT SEEMS LIKE HE MIGHT BE UNBOUND, RIGHT?

I MEAN, HE'S THREATENING MASSIVE PERMANENT LAYOFFS AND THAT KIND OF THING AND PROGRAM CUTS.

DOES CONGRESS REALLY NEED THIS?

>> RIGHT, WELL, SCHOENBERGS ALWAYS COST THE GOVERNMENT MONEY.

THEY ALWAYS ARE A LOSS FOR THE ECONOMY, FOR SORT OF GDP, BUT HERE'S ONE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE.

EVERY SCHOENBERG THAT WE'VE HAD, FEDERAL EMPLOYEES HAVE ALWAYS GOTTEN BACK-PAY.

BOTH THOSE SHOWING UP TO WORK, ESSENTIAL WORKERS, AND THOSE WHO ARE BEING FURLOUGHS.

BUT NOW WITH HEAD OF O.M.B.

VOTE, YOU KNOW, TAKING DIRECTLY FROM PROJECT 2025, REPUBLICANS, ESPECIALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP, ARE POTENTIALLY LOOKING AT THIS AS A WAY TO IMPOSE RIFFS, REDUCE THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE.

>> Eric: SOMEBODY'S GOT TO BLINK AT SOME POINT.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO APPRECIATE THAT THE STANDARDS HERE ARE DIFFERENT.

THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COUNTRY.

IF THERE IS A CRISIS, MOST AMERICANS, MAYBE NOT REPUBLICANS, BUT INDEPENDENTS, LOOK TO THE PRESIDENT, SAY, THAT'S YOUR JOB, RESOLVE THE CRISIS.

AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

IF YOU LOOK AHEAD JUST A FEW MONTHS, WE'RE GOING TO BE HEADING INTO MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

AND ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVERS OF THOSE MIDTERM ELECTIONS IS GOING TO BE PRESIDENTIAL APPROVAL.

ALMOST CERTAINLY, THE APPROVAL OF THE DEMOCRATS IS GOING TO GO DOWN.

BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER AS MUCH.

THE REAL FACTOR HERE IS DONALD TRUMP PROBABLY IS GOING TO BE BLAMED AS MUCH OR MAYBE MORE FOR THE SCHOENBERG AND WHAT HE DOES THE POLITICAL STUFF OF PUNISHING DEMOCRATIC STATES.

THAT DOESN'T HELP.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE USUAL SORT OF POLITICAL GAMES MANSHIP.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS -- WE'RE JUST SEEING A TOTALLY DIFFERENT DYNAMIC WITH TRYING TO DISMANTLE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, SORT OF MIXED DECISIONS FROM THE SUPREME COURT.

SO I THINK FEDERAL EMPLOYEES ARE FEELING LIKE THEIR FUTURE IS REALLY UNCERTAIN, WHICH WILL HURT THE U.S.

IN LONG RUN, AS PEOPLE WHO MIGHT CONSIDER A AREER IN PUBLIC SERVICE ARE LOOKING AT THIS UNCERTAINTY AND THINKING TWICE.

>> Cathy: SAY, AS APPLYCAL SCIENTISTS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION THAT WE'VE HAD HERE NOW FOR A WHILE, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AMASSING SO MUCH PRESIDENTIAL POWER?

AT THE EXPENSE OF CONGRESS?

SEEMINGLY.

>> WELL, I MEAN, THERE HAVE BEEN DIMENSIONS WHERE PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN GAINING POWER POUR VER THE LAST 60 OR 730 YEARS, PARTICULARLY IN AREA OF FOREIGN POLICY AND NATURAL SECURITY.

IF YOU THINK BABBEL BE TO JOE BIDE, HE WAS QUITE ACTIVE IN WAYS IN WHICH IT DIDN'T REALLY FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT IS UNPRECEDENTED IS THE WAY IN WHICH DONALD TRUMP IS UNILATERALLY RESHAPING DOMESTIC POLICY.

THE MONEY'S THAT'S BEING SPENT, CONGRESS HAS APPROVED, HE'S REFUSING TO SPEND IT.

THIS IS KNOWN AS AN 'EM-POWELL MEANL.

BACK IN 1974, THERE WAS A FAKOUS SUPREME COURT DECISION SAYING, PRESIDENTS CAN'T DO IT.

NOW IT PEERS PRESIDENTS CAN DO IT AND DONALD TRUMP IS USING THAT POWER.

SUPREME COURT HAS REALLY SIDED WITH DONALD TRUMP, BUT BY KNOCKING DOWN THE FILIBUSTER, SORT OF LETTING HIM CONTINUE.

>> WELL, AND CONGRESS IS JUST WATCHING, RIGHT >> I MEAN, DEMOCRATS ARE PROTESTING, BUT DEMOCRATS ARE IN THE MINORITY IN BOTH CHAMBERS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST WATCHING INSTEAD OF SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS MONEY THAT THE CONGRESS APPROPRIATED.

WE ARE ARTICLE I OF THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT.

THEY'RE NOT HAVING REAL OVERSIGHT.

THEY'RE NOT PUSHING BACK.

THEY'RE SORT OF -- REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE SORT OF IS A. ING HE'S THE LEADER OF OUR TEAM INSTEAD OF ASSERTING THEIR CONGRESSIONAL INDEPENDENCE.

>> Eric: A YEAR BEFORE THE ELECTION, IS THIS THE KIND OF ISSUE THAT CAN MOVE VOTES?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO APPRECIATE WHOSE VOTE IS GOING TO BE MOVED.

KEY FACTOR IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS IS GOING TO BE TURNOUT.

AND SO THE ISSUE OF DEMOCRACY AND WHETHER TRUMP TOMES IS AN AUTOO ACCURATE OR NOT, THAT'S, LIKE, RED MEAT TO DEMOCRATS AND YOU CAN SEE THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP USING IT TO CHARGE THEM UP.

FOR INDEPENDENTS, I THINK THE BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES LIKE INFLATION AND HEALTHCARE IS AN INFLATION ISSUE AND POTENTIALLY WE'RE GOING TO SEE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SEE THEIR PREMIUMS SHOOT UP MAYBE 75% ON AVERAGE.

THAT'S THE KIND OF ISSUE THAT WILL HAVE BITE.

AND THE PRESIDENT, AS I SAID, COULD WELL BE BLAMED, DISPROPORTIONATELY FOR THIS, EVEN AS THE DEMOCRATS ARE BLAMED TOO.

>> Cathy: I'M WONDERING, BEFORE YOU GO, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE QUANTICO, VIRGINIA, AMASSING OF MILITARY LEADERS?

>> IT WAS STUNNING, THE FACT THAT THAT HAPPENED, IT WAS MILITARY LEADER, IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY SAFE OR STRATEGIC TO HAVE THEM ALL IN ONE PLACE AND ACTUALLY THE RHETORIC ABOUT USING CITIES AS TRAINING GROUNDS, I MEAN, IT WAS SHOCKING AND THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH THAT'S BEEN SHOCKING, BUT THAT WAS TRULY SHOCKING.

>> Eric: AND THE HOUSE IS NOT COMING BACK UNTIL THE SENATE ACTS ON A ANTI-SCHOENBERG BILL?

>> YEAH, I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD STRAP IN.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A QUICK RESOLUTION, AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, EACH PARTY HAS VERY STRONG INCENTIVES TO TICK TO THEIR GUNS AND BOTH PARTIES THINK THEY'RE GOING TO WIN.

AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THAT'S TRUE.

I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S GOING TO TAKE T ON THE CHIN.

>> AND IT'S ALSO NOT CLEAR WHETHER THE END WILL BE NEGOTIATED WITH DONALD TRUMP AND PARTY LEADERS OR IT WILL BE DEMOCRATS -- >> Eric: AND LEADERSHIP WILL THREATEN TO NOT ALLOW THEM HOME FOR CHRISTMAS IF THEY DON'T ACT ON A CONTINUING RESOLUTION.

THAT'S HAPPENED, I THINK.