>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made 70 years ago at the so-called end of the line.

1956 was the final run of the Rochester Subway.

If you're under the age of 70, you did not have an opportunity to ride the subway.

But you can still see one of the cars as it undergoes restoration at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

We'll talk more about that and about how the subway shaped Rochester's history this hour.

We are also going to talk about local school districts.

They're in budget season.

There's a lot on the table voting next week.

And WXXI Noelle Evans will join us to explain what you ought to know about that.

But first, a local legal battle has made headlines.

At the center of it is the future of the former Ed Mall.

Or if you're like me and you got here at a certain time, the former Medley Center, as our colleague WXXI Brian Sharp reports, repurposing the space has been a slow process, and officials are putting much of the blame on a years old agreement that limits potential uses.

And it gives target one of two remaining anchor tenants, a major say in what happens there.

Brian Sharp is WXXI investigations and enterprise editor and business and development reporter.

So hey, welcome.

Nice to see you here.

So once in a while I, when I drive by on 104, I notice that, um, it looks cleaner and a little more kept up than some of the initial years after a lot of the mall kind of, uh, left it, but I was not aware that target had so much power.

We're going to talk about this.

I was going to ask you why this matters.

This matters because it's a major.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a major community post there.

It's the old mall.

>> And and it's interesting, uh, because these, um, very obscure, uh, pacts called reciprocal easement agreements, um, exist.

>> It flows right off.

>> The tongue.

Yeah.

I was going to say it's like I've been eagerly awaiting you bringing me on to talk about reciprocal easement agreements, as have all the listeners.

Um, but these exist in, in shopping malls.

They were, you know, if you go back to the heyday, this was, uh, malls were trying to attract big department stores.

They would come in and they wanted assurance that, hey, this is going to stay a mall.

And we're here, we're invested.

We should have some say about if you want to go, you know, build a new building out there or change the lighting.

And we got to control that.

We have a certain amount of parking, um, and all this.

So that's where they started.

Um, and the case of Irondequoit, you're down to target and a nursing school.

Um, and so it gets down to where the developer in this case, led by Angelo Ingrassia.

Um, was looking at repurposing the mall.

They, they've already built some apartments there.

Pathstone did, they've got a community center in there.

They've got a signed lease with Finger Lakes goodwill.

He's apparently negotiating with some storage facility.

Um, but none of those fit with traditional retail, which is what's in this reciprocal easement agreement.

And so he went to committee, the county's economic development arm, County of Monroe Industrial Development Agency, and said, hey, help me out here.

If you do eminent domain.

Um, essentially what we often refer to as condemnation, think of actually taking of property when the city is trying to or county is trying to build something and they need to take part of this property or grab an easement or whatever.

This actually just canceled the agreement.

Um, and target cried foul and said, hold on, took him to court.

>> And I think we've got their lawyer, Michael Fogle, speaking during the court hearing yesterday.

Let's listen.

>> The Ida admits there's no project.

They admit that there's it's a speculative future development, but yet they want to proceed with taking target's rights at this point.

So we think that's just an overall failing judge.

Um, they can't satisfy that.

There's a public purpose without a specific project.

>> So so what does target actually want to happen here?

Brian.

>> So that's the thing.

And I've, I've reached out because it's like, well, what, what are the, uh, you know, to that point, what are the damages here?

Because they say even, hey, these apartments are unlawful.

Obviously you want more traffic at the mall.

Um, and looking back at some other malls where these things have come about, these can be multi-million dollar payouts, payoffs, essentially to settle these things.

Um, they have something, they have a bargaining chip, they want something for it.

Um, and it might be that, I don't know, I mean, maybe they, they want to be able to have more of a say.

You know, I remember when Costco came in, um, and they were building that Costco has a very strict thing where they dictate what they want to have all around their shop.

And if you remember when they first came in, there was a legal fight for them because they have their, their wine and liquor shop.

Uh, or maybe it's just wine and, uh, the developers put in a wine store and they're like, no, that doesn't, that's not part of the deal.

We, we do wine here.

They don't want any competition on their own site.

And so target might want to just be able to retain that.

Maybe they have some uses, but that's one thing I've been waiting to hear.

Like, well, what, what is it that they want?

On the flip side though, they say, well, we can't.

It's hard to present to you.

Exactly.

Oh, we're going to fill them all with X, Y, and Z. Because right now, as you pointed out, the restrictions say X, Y, and Z can't go there.

>> Yeah.

That's so the idea that they're talking about the Industrial Development Agency says that, you know, it's hard to attract non-retail business with the restrictions prohibiting them being there.

And so, um, we should listen to an exchange between one of the associate justices in court, Steven Lindley, and I mean, I say comedy, you say comedy, let's call the whole thing off.

I'm going to say comedian.

>> And I used to go back and forth on that.

>> Yeah, we can fight about it.

Comitas lawyer Allison Foote said this toward the end of the hearing.

Let's listen to that.

>> It didn't seem like the developer ever went to target and say, hey, can we work something out?

You have these restrictions and these these easements, can we work something out?

They instead went to the EDA and said, hey, can you go condemn their property rights for us?

>> Well, I so the the statute does not require a specific threshold of negotiations in order to proceed.

And as you might imagine, and as might be demonstrated by target's, um, failure to show at the public hearing, it is not easy to get the attention of a company like Target Corporation.

And under the circumstances, I mean, it's in the record that these parties are in negotiations.

And of course, everyone would prefer that there's a negotiated resolution, but that might not be the case.

And the but that doesn't negate that the Ida's exercise of its rights here to eminent domain was proper and supported by a valid public use that has been, um, time and time again confirmed as valid by both this court and the Court of Appeals.

>> Okay, so there's a lot there.

Just kind of distill a little bit more for us what we're hearing.

>> So the just to back up, they had this hearing, uh, last, I think it was July and they sent, um, registered certified mail and Fedex, uh, notice to target's headquarters.

And I think it is Minneapolis and somebody signed for it.

But whatever reason, it never got to whoever and they never showed up.

And so those proceedings are not final because target did.

Then eventually, I think it was in September, come around and say, hold on, wait a minute, and started the court proceeding.

So when they keep talking about public purpose, that's the thing is like, and the taking is that you generally do this.

Like I was talking to somebody who wants to build a project.

The city needs to expand this road or something, and they will take it for the stated public purpose of.

And there has to be this, this grander reason.

What committee and the developer come back and argue is like, well, the grander reason is this mall is vacant and the public purpose is putting something in there and getting something on the tax rolls.

Um, and target argues, well, but you have to have a stated project and you don't have one.

Um, you have general development goals.

That is not a public purpose.

So it's, they are negotiating.

We might, I think there was some thought maybe they'd even have resolution before the arguments yesterday in court.

Um that didn't happen.

The court now uh, could rule as early as June 5th, possibly later.

Um, so there's still time maybe that they work this out without being told what to do.

>> And the developer, Ingrassia, um, has his hands on other projects that we know about, right.

>> Yeah.

He, well, notably he has the Riverside Hotel downtown, uh, which is, uh, kind of an eyesore.

There is a plan to develop it.

We got to see if the money comes around to develop it.

He has the old Colgate Divinity School.

Uh, he has the building at, uh, east.

East Avenue and East Main.

That sort of triangular building.

Uh, those are a few of the, the major properties, notable properties in town.

And he has them all.

>> Okay, so what's next here?

Put a little bow on it for us.

>> I think.

Yeah.

Now we have to see the one interesting other thing that came out is, I mean, there was an announcement of Finger Lakes goodwill.

Um, they have a lease signed, but they said it's now contingent actually on this thing being resolved, I guess, you know, probably because they're not a traditional retail use, uh, at least in full.

Um, so we got to see what happens there, but I think it's just, yeah, to see if, uh, if Ingrassia and target can come to some kind of resolution, whatever that might look like.

Um, and, uh, or if the courts are going to step in and, and, you know, dictate what happens here.

But it is interesting.

Like I say, it goes to, uh, you know, it points to we have malls, uh, across the country that have these.

Oh, you know, vestiges of, of agreements past and need to be repurposed and trying to figure out how, how to do so.

>> Forgive me.

Have you been in the old Irondequoit mall recently?

>> No, I have not.

>> I mean, like, I'm very curious because you said there's yeah, there's some apartments you said.

Right.

>> So the apartments took the old Sears building and built additional.

It's like 154 senior apartments.

Uh, and then they put in, I think, I think the town put in the community center.

Um, there's some other operations on site.

I know I heard from a friend of mine who, who has, you know, they work on another, uh, building there.

Um, so there's activity around there, but I think it's, yeah, to repurpose the entirety of that.

And you've seen different uses of that, right?

You have, you have Mary Cariola going into marketplace and the orthopedic center for you health uses or a lot of them.

But again, with the, uh, agreement, target has, uh, medical uses would be as they refer to the apartments, unlawful.

>> Yeah.

Well.

>> I don't know what you do about that.

>> I don't, I don't either.

Um, and I was also thinking about the fact that, you know, Eastview Mall is still essentially Eastview Mall, right?

Irondequoit Mall is dead.

And there we've been talking about that marketplace has had this repurposing.

And I was thinking, well, maybe every region is going to have one mall survive as a mall when a lot of regions, you know, metro areas had multiple malls, but then there's Greece Ridge, and they're the ones who got Boscov's.

You know, Boscov's is, uh, doing, I, I, I assume pretty well.

We had one of their Boscov's principles on this program and they're still bullish on local like in-person shopping.

Um, and we'll see about that.

But I, I tend to wonder with grease Ridge because they have some holes in that mall unfilled places.

The DMV is there, um, there's all kinds of, kind of not traditional stuff in there.

Now I wonder if there was some kind of behind the scenes agreement with Boscov's to say, well, here's what we think we're doing in the future for this site because I don't know how many malls can be sustained by a regional metro.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't think there's a perfect formula for that, but it's not what it used to be.

>> Yeah.

No, I mean, that's a separate thing.

I've been kicking around on.

I know with just AI and automation and the different ways that that's also changing retail.

And I know people who are even commenting on our story were like, oh, the best way to shop at target's online.

>> Yeah, right.

>> And so it's, but yeah, there's still, I mean, there's still folks who still things where you want to go out and buy and see it and look at it and try it on.

Um, maybe, um, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's definitely a very, very much changing market and landscape.

Um, and trying and, and now we have these massive, sprawling commercial buildings to repurpose.

>> All right.

Before I let you go, then, how many malls were there when you were growing up, where you grew up?

>> Two.

>> Two in.

And what was.

>> The Lincoln, Nebraska.

>> Lincoln, Nebraska.

>> It was about 200,000 people.

>> Are both those malls still there?

>> Uh, one for sure is and kind of like Eastview thriving.

The other one, it's there, but I it's not it's not a, I'm not sure what's in it, but it's not I think it's turned into, you know, big office, call center.

There's a lot of call centers in Nebraska because we don't tend to have the strong accent one way or the other.

So I'm.

>> Sorry, say this again.

You think Nebraskans don't I don't strong accent.

>> I remember I got here and Carol Lee Conklin was like, oh, I can hear your accent, but that's what I was.

I was told is you do call call centers and, um, surveys, phone surveys when those were regular would be in Nebraska, Iowa, a lot of them.

>> Now it's Columbus, Ohio that doesn't have the accent.

That's why I don't have an accent.

>> Okay.

>> But you do.

I do you hear an accent with me?

>> No.

>> Okay.

But do you think you don't hear an accent with yourself?

No.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess we don't with ourselves.

Yeah.

Anyway, you're wrong, but I'm kidding.

But I'm not surprised about the call center.

And the reason I asked is, I think in Cleveland, where all, all the different malls where I grew up, there's a couple that are thriving and there's a couple that are kind of in that, what do we do next phase?

That's we're going to see a lot more of that.

All right.

We'll look for your reporting to come on this once again.

What's the name of that really cool esoteric term.

>> Um reciprocal easement agreement.

>> Love those reciprocal easement agreements bring us to the next one.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Brian Sharp the man without an accent and one of the great business reporters we know that's Brian Sharp more, more Connections coming up in a moment.

We're talking to our colleague Noelle Evans about kind of a pickle that school districts are in with still no state budget and budget votes coming up.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections, economist Eric Morris joins us in the first hour talking about the K-shaped economy.

You might have heard of that phrase.

We're going to talk about how the economic challenges are affecting people.

Well, not all together equally in this country.

And he'll explain in our second hour, if AI doesn't kill us, it will affect our art.

And we're going to talk to people who work in the world of art about AI.

>> Now more than ever, your public radio station relies on support from our sustaining members.

When you start or increase your monthly donation, you are doing your part to ensure this trusted source of local, national and international news stays healthy and thriving for years to come.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

School districts across the state, but really across the region.

Of course, that's what we're talking about here.

They're putting their annual budgets up to vote on Tuesday.

And this has been a problem for a long time.

When you have a regularly late state budget, school districts have to do their best to budget, not knowing exactly what they're getting from the state.

And when you're talking millions of dollars, that is that is a pickle.

So Noelle Evans is here.

WXXI News education reporter and producer, and we're going to talk a little about what this all means.

It's nice to see you back here in studio.

Hey, could you budget for your next year if I told you we're not sure what we're going to pay you?

Um, here's what we've paid you in the past.

No guarantees.

>> No.

I'd be in a panic, actually.

Yeah.

>> That's that's kind of what schools are doing.

Right.

So they do.

But budget votes are happening one way or another.

They're happening on Tuesday.

>> That's exactly right.

And yes, this budget season, as have many it's been under this backdrop of or in front of a backdrop of uncertainty, right?

So it's the state budget, but it's also what may come of federal policies.

I think back to last summer when the Trump administration withheld title funding for schools, including in New York State.

New York state was one of several states that then sued the federal government over that.

And then that money was released ahead of the school year.

But that also shook educators and education leaders as to what that means, how they may need to prepare.

And, you know, if that could happen again, and if that if the withholding of money could actually turn into not getting it, after all, rather than it being released.

So the state budget, we'll see what happens.

There is some optimism that schools will see, some schools will see increases, that state aid will be available to them.

Um, but then also on the local level, two, when it comes to actually getting out and voting, which always want to encourage, uh, democratic participation, um, you can vote no on a budget, you can approve it.

Um, in Rush-henrietta either last year or the year before, believe it was two years ago.

Um, the initial budget vote was rejected by a pretty small margin, if I remember.

And then after that it was approved.

Um, and so we could, we'll see how it goes this year.

But yeah, it's uncertain.

>> We have some sound from David Albert of the New York State School Boards Association on some of this.

Let's listen.

>> When you think about it, there's only three sources of revenue for schools state aid, local taxes and federal aid.

And the federal aid is just 7%.

So it's really state and local sources.

So when one of those components is unknown, it makes it challenging.

>> Mhm.

And not only that, you have, um, the federal it was the coronavirus relief funding for schools with the pandemic that fundings not really available to schools anymore, which makes sense.

Like it had its lifetime, but that also means that programs and staffing, whatever it is that those schools put money toward, they need to find another way to fund it.

Or those programs would be cut.

And a lot of those programs, uh, fell under student mental health and social emotional wellness.

>> All right.

So the communities will be voting on those budgets in Rochester.

The school board has voted on a budget, the RCSD budget, and it has passed, although not without some certainly some debate.

We had a chance to talk to the superintendent and the president and the vice president of the board, and they understood that not only were some of their colleagues on the board raising concerns or voting no for certain reasons, but also some community members, which we'll hear coming up here.

Um, I kind of thought I'll be honest with with you, Noelle, I kind of thought when the superintendent and the president and the vice president of the board left the studio here last week, I kind of thought they were going to have a hard time getting four votes to pass this budget, but they did it.

>> They did.

And what I noticed too, it was a pretty heated meeting.

Um, they often are, but this in particular was, uh, interesting to watch.

Um, two of those votes also came from the newest members on the school board.

Um, there was some talk that made it appear as though and I could be mistaken, but >> It came off as though if you don't vote for this, they're like to pass it.

There will be significant consequences.

But even in other places where in Rochester, it is up to the school board to vote yes or no on a budget elsewhere, as we're talking about, it's up to residents to.

Um, and so you can vote no on a budget.

There were three votes against it, four in favor.

Um, but yeah, it was interesting to see how that went.

And I do think when and not to assume, but I mean, when you're new to a position, sometimes it can be a bit daunting to make such a bold move as to say, no, this budget should not go forward.

But also my understanding is that if you vote no on that, you go to a contingency budget.

There are it's not the end of the world necessarily, but for folks that have been very concerned about the way that things are looking for what's going to be funded and what won't be funded at Rochester City Schools next year, that this does feel a bit like the end of the world.

>> So let's listen to some of the the comments regarding Rochester school budget again passes by a 4 to 3 vote.

First, let's hear from Commissioner Beatrice LeBron, who voted against the budget.

And we're also going to hear from Amy Malloy, who voted for it.

Let's listen.

>> Students who are navigating trauma, poverty, housing instability, mental health challenges, violence and chronic absenteeism do not benefit when support systems are destabilized all at once.

>> Okay, that's Beatrice LeBron.

Let's listen to vice President of the board Amy Malloy, who voted in favor.

>> We must acknowledge that our current financial footprint is not sustainable long term.

>> Okay.

Um, now let's listen to some of what the superintendent had to say.

That's Dr.

Rosser was on Connections last week, and he was talking about the debate about student supports and mental health cuts.

And um, he acknowledged as you're about to hear that of all the possible cuts that they felt like they had to make, this one was the hardest.

Let's listen.

>> You know, originally we started out with 30.5 social workers that were going to be cut based upon us not having a revenue stream and based upon dollars that have come in, we have made restorations.

Currently, as of today, we're down to ten social workers and down to 8.5 counselors that we currently don't have a funding source to be able to support those individuals.

We're not debating with individuals about whether or not we believe that our children could use more.

We all agree with that.

But it really boils down to a dollar and cents piece where if we don't have the financial resources to support it, then we most certainly can't place it in our budget.

>> Is that the hardest cut in this budget?

If you had a little bit more to work with, is that the first restoration that you would go to?

>> Most certainly, most certainly.

>> And that's Dr.

Rosser.

So before we hear from Eamon Scanlon, who you talked to from the children's agenda, this is, as you know, in covering budgets, there's always debates about what you can afford and what you cannot afford.

I was struck Noelle, in your reporting in recent weeks about how, how united the, the, um, the community that provides mental health services, counselors, et cetera., across our region was in saying, be careful with this.

This is a really sensitive one.

And I don't I'm not saying it's easy.

I'm not running this budget, but I think they clearly heard that in some ways, didn't they?

>> Heard.

What do.

>> You mean?

I think they heard the community saying, if you're going to cut 30 staff members from student support and mental health, that could be devastating.

I mean, Melanie Funches says she basically said people could die.

And, um, so the superintendent, they went from 30 cuts to ten.

I think in his view, they heard it, they heard that.

>> And they did what they could.

>> They did what.

>> They could.

Yes.

And that's the messaging that I'm understanding as well.

Um, yes.

To the point of you have a lot of people who are were shook that these cuts were very likely to affect very like vulnerable students, about 90%, if not a little bit more unless things have changed.

But about 90% of students enrolled in the city school district come from economically disadvantaged households.

Um, there has been also concern about cuts to um, food service staff.

And, you know, food service.

What that could mean.

Um, I don't know if you've ever tried to accomplish anything while hungry, um, or notice how your moods change when you're hungry.

Um, but that also I believe falls under um, student mental wellness as well.

Not to say like under this category and we will fund it in this way.

However, it does have an impact.

And so it's yes, the community response has been, um, as you mentioned, like quite united.

Um, and especially when it comes to how, I mean, we've reported on the concerns about student mental health.

Um, and challenges there, uh, and to Melanie's point, it can be fatal if left unaddressed.

And sometimes it does take one trusted adult.

And when you have a lot of, um, uncertainty back to that word, um, when you have a lot of transition, when you have pretty significant structural changes and there's a sense of like a lack of grounding that can be really detrimental, not just to somebody's well-being, but also to their academic success.

And, you know, when we look at those numbers too, like the, the city school district is struggling there.

>> And so Eamon Scanlon from the Children's Agenda had this to say about the cuts to student support, because again, the superintendent is saying we were going to cut more.

We heard you.

We're going to cut less.

>> And they got grant funding as well.

Um, that came after the initial budget.

The draft budget book was published.

>> And there's still a lot of folks saying the number should have been zero.

This is too important.

Let's listen to some of what Eamon Scanlon had to say.

>> This is not just we had to cut somewhere.

This was we chose to cut somewhere and the choice was to cut student supports on its face.

We can't say that this puts them out of compliance, but it does risk that.

>> The out of compliance though he's talking about special education students with individualized education plans.

So if in that plan, um, mental health is an element to that.

I think the term is like emotional disturbance.

Um, and you don't have access to a social worker that's out of compliance.

For instance, um, if you need home hospital instruction and there isn't someone available for that that's out of compliance.

And it's my understanding that when you're out of compliance and that you're, um, violating a legal obligation that can open you up to the risk of lawsuits.

And I believe that lawsuits, not, I believe, but lawsuits can cost money.

>> Oh, certainly they can.

>> And that isn't necessarily fiscally prudent, I think, to potentially open yourself up to that, not to editorialize so much as that kind of struck me as a, wow, okay.

You know, you have people saying like, there's a danger to this not just for taking care of students.

>> And I suspect Dr.

Ross on the board would say, we hear that, but we're in compliance.

I don't think they'd vote for a budget that's not in compliance, but there might be a legal fight.

>> Folks that are leading a school who you would imagine, have, you know, wanting to have the best, um, doing the best for students and having, you know, their best interest in mind there, um, to do something willfully.

I don't think it's that I think from what people are saying, it's the, are you fully aware of the, the individual?

Sorry, the I'd e a and what is covered under that and how to ensure that students are taken care of?

Because the other thing is that, and here's something special education enrollments increasing at the city school districts elsewhere too, they do have more staff, I believe about 100 some full time positions going towards special education.

Unless I'm mistaken.

Um, and I don't think I am.

So we do see this kind of shuffling around, but one of the concerns that Eamon also highlighted for him and for the children's agenda is that they want to know how this transition is going to play out.

And they're saying that they're not seeing, you know, a transparent communication to the community over how that's going to look.

And that might actually put some folks minds at ease that there is something in place or that there will be something in place and the students will be taken care of.

>> All right.

More to come on that.

Now let's listen to Adam Urbanski, president of the Rochester Teachers Association, talking about morale for teachers.

>> I predict a lot of pain in the near future.

I think that this snail pace, indecisive leadership doesn't bode well for how the district will do in the coming months and years.

>> So, Adam Urbanski, there is talking both about the way that things have gone with the budget process and with how things have gone in terms of Oracle payroll errors, which have been a sore spot for the Rochester Teachers Association and other staff bent.

>> And anybody whose paycheck was woefully short of what it should have been.

Yes, yes.

>> Or that their deductions aren't there or, um, yeah, so many things that can.

And what does that mean for your W-2?

And what if you're.

What if there's an error there?

And what if you also have immigrant status and you know, the IRS is there are so many things that like not to, to be overly speculative or to it's just there are some things to me that are just like, there could have, there could be very big ripple effects for individuals and not just the, can I pay my bills, which is.

>> Which is a big enough.

>> Effect.

A big enough one.

Yeah.

Yes.

Uh, so that in terms of the morale for staff.

>> But the superintendent told us last week, he thinks that is largely taken care of.

There's still some small things here and there not to the scale of what it was.

>> Yes.

And Urbanski told me yesterday that they're still looking for a resolution in terms of how staff will be who have been affected will be made whole, which is also accounting for when you have, um, money that was meant to go into a retirement account or meant to go somewhere where there could be interest acquired on that, that, you know, there is time where that money hasn't gone there therefore.

So anyway, there's more to there's like the weeds there as to, you know, how what he means by making staff and teachers whole who have been affected.

And from what he's saying that that hasn't actually been that has yet to be resolved.

>> I want to try to get Oracle on this program.

I would.

>> Be fascinating.

I have reached.

Out and no response.

And they actually don't have a phone number for a media contact.

When I checked.

>> That's probably.

>> Yeah.

>> That's convenient.

Mhm.

Okay, Oracle you're invited.

Come tell us how this got screwed up this bad.

Um, but anyway, um, lastly, before we let you go here, school board races are also happening.

>> Yes, they.

>> Are some places and some contested races.

Just a brief note on that from you.

>> Yes.

So actually most, if I'm not mistaken, are contested races.

Even if it's just like, you know, there are three open seats, there are four people running.

Um, Brighton has a looks like a hotly contested race, as does Honeoye Falls Lima, Lima.

I'm so sorry.

>> Honey falls Lima.

>> Lima.

Thank you.

I panic um.

>> That's okay.

>> And then uh, Penfield as well.

>> Okay.

Um, so we'll look for a reporting from you next week on the results on the votes, which could mean school board races could mean your local budgets.

Um, to noelle's point, most school budgets pass, but they don't always pass.

And in recent years, you can point to a few here and there that didn't.

So big decisions coming up hard spot as you I think really reported out well for districts to be in not having a state budget.

The consequences of a late state budget are many.

And this is a big one.

So we'll also see there.

And then um, with City Council expected to vote, they could they're going to vote on the Rochester City School District budget.

That's probably a symbolic vote at this point.

I don't think they're going to overturn.

>> That's generally the feeling.

Yeah.

>> Um but they still have to do that.

>> They still have to do that.

And we'll see how that goes.

Um, and for folks that, you know, you can go out and vote for your, um, school district's budget, your school board members who you want to see on that board.

And we have a voter's guide on that on our website.

>> Oh, yes.

So on the WXXI News website, voter guide there to Noelle's point, wherever you are, like whatever your opinions are, you can express yourself with your vote and they want you to vote.

>> So express.

>> Yourself, express yourself with the vote.

There you go.

Thank you for this great reporting.

Nice to see you.

>> Nice to see you.

Thank you.

>> Evan Noelle Evans.

We're coming right back to close the week.

Talking a bit of Rochester history and the subway next.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections.

Economist Eric Morris joins us in the first hour talking about the K-shaped economy.

You might have heard of that phrase.

We're going to talk about how the economic challenges are affecting people.

Well, not all together equally in this country.

And he'll explain in our second hour, if AI doesn't kill us, it will affect our art.

And we're going to talk to people who work in the world of art about AI.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola, center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson.

Believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one, Mary cariola.org.

>> This is Connections and we end the week at the end of the line, so to speak.

I'm talking about the Rochester Subway and yes, Rochester had a subway system.

This year marks 70 years since subway service ended here in Rochester.

It also marks the 110th birthday of Subway car 60, which you can see at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum, which is restoring it.

But for many of us, Rochester having a subway.

This might be news to you.

This could be a new concept to you.

It is not new to my guests for this segment, who is an author and historian of the Rochester Subway.

And as he says, for many people, the subway feels more like an urban legend than a real piece of history.

So let's make it a real piece of history with Otto M. Vondrak.

Otto is an author, historian, and marketing manager for the Rochester Subway Gala.

Hey, welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thanks for having me.

It's great to be here.

>> When you talk to people, do they say to you like Rochester didn't have a subway?

I mean, is there like skepticism?

>> It's it's probably one of the greatest urban legends in the city is the Rochester Subway and teaching people about it is actually pretty exciting.

>> I think we have vintage video.

Is that right?

So if you're watching on YouTube, we can share some of the vintage video, the Rochester Subway opened in 1927, built in the former Erie Canal bed to move passengers and freight through downtown.

And you're looking at the video courtesy of Mike Champlin here.

>> That looks like that's actually footage at the museum.

That's volunteers restoring car 60.

>> Love it.

So we're going to talk about that coming up here.

But can you paint a little picture for us?

Otto how far and wide did the system go or not go?

>> The the subway actually started.

A lot of people don't realize when they're driving on parts of 590 and 490 that they're on the subway.

It was built in the bed of the old Erie Canal and roughly starts where Monroe Avenue crosses 590, going north through the can of worms and then going west for 90.

And then when you get to the river, it kind of went up northwest towards the General Motors plant, Rochester products.

So it cut a swath from Brighton to Greece, right through the heart of downtown listeners.

>> We only got less than 20 minutes of show left for the week.

But if anybody in this audience remembers the subway, I want to hear you got to be of a certain age.

It's been 70 years.

>> 70 years.

>> Since the last run of the Rochester Subway.

Um, but, um, can can you just briefly describe what you want people to sort of do with this knowledge?

I mean, I think it's a great story to begin with when most people don't even know what happened.

>> I think it's an important part of our city's history.

A lot of people try to paint the subway as a failure, and it wasn't a failure.

Um, it was actually a really important part of the city's growth as like a successor to the Erie Canal.

And it kind of led the way for helping to move people through the city to work, to play.

>> Well, now I'm looking at some, so here's your some vintage video here, here and Otto if you're watching on YouTube, describe for the listening audience who's not seeing it, what you're seeing there.

>> So we're looking at the Rochester Subway, which was, uh, essentially trolley cars, which were electric self-propelled cars, uh, running down the track.

There were no grade crossings, there were no railroad crossings.

So they could, they could get up to some pretty high speeds without having to deal with city traffic.

And the cars were painted a very attractive, uh, red body with cream trim and a black roof.

They were operated by Rochester Transit, so they were painted the same way as the city bus fleet.

And what was great about the subway, like I said, you could get from one end of the city to the other in about 20 minutes.

Try to do that today.

Um, it's, it was really an important part of moving people through the city.

And it was indicative of a great period of optimism in the 1920s when the subway was being built, Rochester was on a huge growth trajectory.

And the city fathers were looking ahead.

How do we serve this growing population?

How do we make ourselves a modern city?

And the city of Rochester was really bold when they decided to sponsor construction of the subway.

>> So, uh, it looked like it was above ground video there.

So the term subway, is that a misnomer?

>> So I think in this case, we're using the word subway to indicate rapid transit.

Like, uh, faster than the streetcar lines that were running through the city where the trolleys are mixing with the city traffic on the roads.

The subway was completely grade separated.

And when people hear the word subway, they think of fast trains running underground.

Now it was all below grade.

It was in the roadbed of the old Erie Canal, so it was all below the surface of the street.

Most of it was outdoors.

The only part that was underground was the two mile section that created Broad Street.

So when you're driving on the older portion of Broad Street, that was actually a tunnel that was created.

The roadway was created when they decked over the tunnel.

There was no Broad Street until the subway was built.

>> I love that little piece of history.

That's amazing.

And you're not even a Rochester to begin with, is that right?

>> That's right.

I, uh, I grew up downstate, grew up in the Hudson Valley in Westchester County, and I came up here for school and, uh, moved back about a dozen years ago because really with the Flower City.

>> What made you interested in the subway?

>> Growing up outside New York City and riding trains and using transit is just a part of life.

I grew up in the suburbs, worked in New York City.

Uh, it's it's just a way of life.

And coming up to Rochester and learning that it had its own subway system, transit line in addition, that outlasted the streetcars.

All the streetcars were gone by 1941, but the subway lasted until 1956.

And it was actually one of the last independent trolley lines in New York State when it shut down.

>> When you're trying to tell people, look, it's not just a failure because it's shut down.

In 1956, did it have good ridership?

>> The ridership was increasing, um, all through the 30s and 40s when the city was actively promoting, um, riding it and you have to remember to was built at a time a lot of people were still living in the downtown core.

Mhm.

And also the way the subway kind of connected, um, the neighborhoods of Brighton, you know, like when you're driving up and down that section of 590 and you're crossing Monroe Avenue and Elmwood and Highland and Winton, all those exits on 490 and 590 were once stations.

Those were all the stations were.

Subway stops.

Yeah.

Like Culver Road, Monroe Ave, um, the station at Meg's Goodman was between Meg's and Goodman, but it's it's interesting when you realize how it was meant to move the people.

So many people were within walking distance of the subway.

And I think it's interesting you hear people talk about the subway and they think about the lost promise of, of transit and getting people moving around and say, oh, we should bring back the subway, bringing back the subway on the exact footprint where it was wouldn't help the same number of people.

But I think people are interested in in transit of some sort coming back.

>> You think they're interested?

You should see my switchboard here.

We got to take some phone calls because it turns out.

Well, let's start with Bill in Penfield.

Hey, Bill.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

Good afternoon.

>> Yeah.

Go ahead.

>> Bill.

Uh, yeah, we moved here from Chicago in 1955.

My father was, uh, a recent graduate of American Institute of Technology.

Um, got a job with Kodak, and we landed in Ellison Apartments, and I remember distinctly, uh, when we moved in that there was a spur right there near there used to be an old gas tank or some sort of collection tank.

Today it's on, uh, that Blossom Road area.

It's a bus turn, but that's where I used to pick up the trolley and take it into Kodak Park.

Where you go downtown, exchange.

And for $0.05, you would get the Kodak Park Apartments.

>> Sound right to you?

Let me ask the historian.

Hang on there for a second, Bill.

>> Yeah.

There was a there was a rush hour service.

The subway was actually designed to have more Connections to the streetcar lines.

And there was a rush hour service that connected to the Dewey Avenue surface line that served Kodak Park.

It was a really important part of the system.

>> All right.

Uh, and Bill, you said it.

>> Wasn't every.

>> Day the fare was a nickel.

>> That's correct.

>> Okay.

Otto does that sound right?

>> Uh, I know it increased over the years.

I don't have the exact the exact fares, but, uh, the fares were a lot cheaper back then.

Let's put it that way.

>> Okay.

Bill, is this a good memory for you?

Bill?

>> Uh, it was very positive.

We were, uh, kind of aghast when they took it out.

And, uh, made it more car friendly.

I think they did a disservice to the city and its environs by eliminating a good transit.

Trans mass mass transit system to help ease traffic downtown.

And I think because of it, we've all kind of suffered in the long run.

>> I think it's interesting because you talk about traffic through the city.

One of the things that the transit company promised when they shut down the subway, they said, don't worry, we're going to launch an express bus service in the new highway that we're going to build.

And that was very short lived because unfortunately, busses are still subject to the same traffic problems that we suffer when we're driving our cars.

>> Oh boy.

Bill, thank you for the recollections.

I really appreciate that.

Let's get Michael and Henrietta.

Hey, Michael.

Go ahead.

>> Hi, Evan.

I just turned the radio on and heard you guys talking about the old subway.

Uh, my father who passed away a while ago, told me a story about when he was a young teenager.

And, uh, he and a group of friends, uh, liked to have a little bit of, uh, devilish kind of fun.

He would go down to the tunnel when the train was passing through, and, uh, he liked to hear the girls scream, so he and his friends would tie a rope across the tunnel.

And as the, uh, the train was passing across the rope would knock the rod that was connected to the wire above, supplying electric.

The.

The rod would fall down and all the girls would scream because the lights would go out and the train conductor, he knew what was going on.

He just climbed out of the train.

He had a long stick and he pushed the rod back on to the electric supply and the train would continue on, but he and his friends would would, uh, occasionally do that on a late night just to hear the girls make some noise.

>> And they say, and they say Rochester is not fun.

>> Michael is calling to sell out his father and the mischief that his father and friends were making.

There's probably always been mischief making on subway beds and all over the place.

>> You know, that story reminds me like it was back when we had more streetcar lines, you know, if you wanted to, you know, get into a little trouble if you were sitting at the rear window, you could reach out.

It's called the the rope.

Uh, it's called the retriever.

Um, you could, you could yank on the rope that was connected to the trolley pole.

And yeah, once you disconnected it from the wire, the car would stop, the lights would go out, and everyone would have a good laugh except for the motorman.

>> Wow.

Well, Otto Vondrak is with us.

He's an author, historian, and marketing manager for the Rochester Subway Gala.

So let's talk about what's coming up here.

Uh, June 21st and June 27th.

So let's start with June 21st.

What's happening?

>> We're really excited.

We're hosting our first ever Rochester Subway Gala, um, at the Rochester.

Um, I'm sorry, at the George Eastman Museum.

We're really excited for this.

It's Sunday evening, June 21st.

Uh, people are going to enjoy a great 1950s themed cocktail party.

We want everyone to come out in their best Mad Men attire.

Uh, there's going to be a little cocktail reception.

And then following that, we're going to do a special private screening of end of the line 2.0.

And following that, we are going to have a live Q&A with the producers, Fred Armstrong and Mike Chaplin.

So that's going to be a lot of fun.

>> And you're seeing again, if you're watching on YouTube, some pictures here.

So Otto just for the listening audience, describe a little more of what you're seeing here.

There's car 60.

>> Yep, that is car 60.

And that's what we are currently actively restoring at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

Uh, it's 100 years old.

Uh, a lot of damage from being stored outside for many years.

But probably the most important part of our collection, it was donated to us in 1956, right when the subway shut down.

And we've been actively working on it over the last dozen years or more.

We want to make it a great exhibit for people to experience, walk through, touch, see, feel, hear.

It's the tactile history that makes it come alive.

We can talk about the subway all day long.

Um, but you come out to the museum on June 27th, we'll be doing Rochester Subway day and train rides, and that'll be an opportunity for you to actually see our progress on restoring this important artifact.

>> Which are you talking about?

The Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

>> Rochester, Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in Rush is where we're restoring the car.

And it's not just coming out to see the car.

We have.

You come out to the museum, you take a vintage diesel ride on a railroad that our volunteers built.

>> Which is great, by the way.

Been on it with my son.

You guys do such a good job.

>> Thanks.

We work really hard.

It's all volunteer.

Uh, we are the largest operating railroad museum in New York state, and we're trying to not be the best kept secret in Rochester, which is why we're working so hard on this subway gala.

We've had a lot of great response from the public.

We want people to come out and enjoy this gala.

It's not just about having a cocktail party and seeing a movie, but it's really about supporting hands on preservation and an important part of Rochester history.

>> So again, it's a Sunday.

It's June 21st.

June 21st.

That is the gala.

It's at the George Eastman House.

They want you in Mad Men attire if you want to do it.

It's a 1950s themed cocktail reception.

They'll be showing end of the line 2.0.

They'll have a great conversation six days later, the following Saturday, June 27th.

Um, a special celebration of museum with train rides and tours of the restoration of car 60 out at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in Rush.

So, um, a lot coming up for the calendar there.

Let me close by just asking you, what do you I think you're painting an accurate or a fair picture that says, look, we're not going to recreate the subway in exactly the footprint.

It was.

As much as people are nostalgic or do want better mass transit, that old footprint isn't what we would do.

But what would be a great future for you as an enthusiast?

>> I think just serving the city, not even as an enthusiast, but I think the Lake Avenue corridor could definitely benefit from, uh, some sort of enhanced transit, whether it's rail, whether it's some sort of express bus, I'm not sure, but I think the density of the Lake Avenue corridor connecting Charlotte to downtown, in fact, that was one of the last streetcar lines to shut down.

And they waited till the end to shut it down because it was so busy.

It was the busiest line.

And I think the Lake Avenue bus line is the busiest line.

And I think that would be probably a corridor.

I would take a pretty close look at for development.

>> Uh, and Sean wanted to know what's the difference between a trolley car, a streetcar, and a subway car.

>> So some of those terms are interchangeable.

Trolley and streetcar.

Um, a trolley is an electric powered vehicle runs off an overhead wire.

Trolleys, you could argue, run on a private right of way.

Like no, they don't run on the street.

There's no railroad crossings, a streetcar is a type of trolley that would run on city streets, mixes with traffic still powered by electricity, often overhead wire and a subway car usually references what we would call rapid transit.

Like, um, you know, heavier rapid transit, maybe looking more like a train still electrically powered because they're probably running in tunnels underground.

Um, and then in between there, you also have light rail.

Light rail is kind of a hybrid between a subway and a trolley.

>> I grew up in Cleveland and the rapid transit is still popular there.

>> Yes.

Yes, very.

Yeah.

>> And that's above ground, isn't it?

>> Yep.

And there's there's two parts of it.

So the Cleveland Rapid part of it is rapid transit subway running out to the airport line.

And then there's two suburban lines that go out to Shaker Heights, and they use light rail.

>> You know, everything about this stuff.

>> I really like trains, and that's why I love my job.

>> In the 1990s, I used to pay, I think we paid $1.50 to ride the rapid down to see baseball games at Jacobs Field.

Uh, I'm sure it's more than a buck 50 now, but I don't think it's very expensive to ride.

>> No.

And that's that's one of the great things about mass transit.

It is affordable.

And in the example of Cleveland, they've recently opened the waterfront extension, um, where it serves the stadiums.

It serves the Amtrak station, brings you to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

I mean, really, transit is about connecting people.

>> And if we can show one more time on YouTube, the picture of car 60, the red trolley there, I mean, it looks like Fred Rogers red trolley from, um, you know, the land of imagination.

>> Yeah.

The neighbor going to the neighborhood of Make-Believe.

>> There you go.

It does look like it's headed for the neighborhood of Make-Believe, but this was not make believe.

As Otto tries to tell people this was real.

And the subway in Rochester opened.

What year did it open?

>> 1927.

>> 1927 to 1956.

So three decades before it closed up permanently 70 years ago.

Thank you for the history lesson.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> And you can learn more out at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

Um, anything else people?

Where can people learn more here?

>> Uh, we'd love you to pick up your tickets at Rochester train rides.com.

>> Rochester train rides.com.

The gala, June 21st at the George Eastman House and June 27th out at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

A special day, and you can see the in-progress restoration of car number 60.

Have fun Otto.

Great stuff.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thanks so much.

>> Great way to end the week here at Connections.

Thanks from the whole team.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching.

We'll all be back with you next week on member supported public Media.

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