♪ ♪ MUHAMMAD ALI, IT'S BEEN SAID HE WAS BIGGER THAN BOXING AND LARGER THAN LIFE.

KNOWN AS MUCH FOR WHAT HE FOUGHT FOR OUTSIDE THE RING THAN IN IT, ALI IS THE FOCUS OF AN EIGHT-HOUR DOCUMENTARY AIRING ON KET AND PBS.

I TALK WITH FILM MAKER SARAH BURNS ABOUT THE SIX YEAR PROJECT TO GIVE VIEWERS A MULTIDIMENSIONAL LOOK AT LOUISVILLE'S MOST FAMOUS SON.

THAT'S NOW ON CONNECTIONS.

THE GREATEST.

AS A YOUNG CASSIUS CLAY IN LOUISVILLE, HE DECLARED THAT HE WOULD BE JUST THAT WHEN ALI FIRST STEPPED INTO A BOXING GYM AS A TEENAGER.

A NEW MULTI-HOUR FILM ABOUT THE LEGENDARY BOXER TAKES VIEWERS ON A JOURNEY WITH SOME NEVER BEFORE SEEN ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE OF ALI OF HOW HE BECAME THE WORLD'S MOST CHARISMATIC AND CONTROVERSIAL SPORTS FIGURE.

HERE'S A LITTLE BIT R TAIT OF WHAT YOU'LL SEE.

>> I DON'T WANT NONE.

I WON'T TAKE NONE.

I WON'T EAT NONE.

IS THAT A WHITE HORSE?

STAND UP.

LOOK OVER THERE.

YOU HAVE TO STAND UP OVER THERE.

SEE THE BIG ONE?

THERE HE IS.

MY EARLIEST MEMORIES THAT I CAN THINK OF AS A CHILD WITH MY FATHER ARE WALKING THROUGH AIRPORTS AND BEING IN CROWDS AND FEELING THE VIBRATIONS OF PEOPLE'S CLAPPING AND SHOUTS IN MY CHEST.

AND JUST LOOKING AT MY DAD LIKE, WHO IS THIS PERSON.

AND IT WAS ALL THE TIME, ANYWHERE WE WENT, YOU'RE THE GREATEST.

WE LOVE YOU.

I LOVED FEELING ALL THE ENERGY AND THE LOVE THAT HE FELT.

WE NOW THINK OF MUHAMMAD ALI AS THIS VULNERABLE GUY LIGHTING THE TORCH IN ATLANTA AND EVERYBODY ON THE GLOBE LOVES HIM.

BLACK PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE, A UNIVERSAL LEARY ALMOST IN A RELIGIOUS WAY, LIKE THE BUDDHA, BUT WHEN HE WAS IN THE MIDST OF HIS CAREER, AND NOT JUST IN THE EARLY PART, HE WAS INCREDIBLY DIVISIVE.

>> BOO, YELL, SCREAM, THROW PEANUTS BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, PAY TO GET IN.

>> PEOPLE HATED HIM WHETHER IT WAS ALONG RACIAL LINES, CLASS LINES, VIETNAM LINES, POLITICAL LINES, RELIGIOUS LINES OR JUST COULDN'T STAND HIM AND PEOPLE HAD THE OPPOSITE EFFECT, I LOVE HIP.

LOVE HIM.

BUT YOU HAD AN OPINION ABOUT HIM >> IT WILL TAKE A GOOD MAN TO WHOOP ME.

YOU CAN LOOK AT ME.

I HAD (INAUDIBLE) AND I'M PRETTY.

>> LOOK HOW PRETTY I AM.

MY TRIM LEGS AND BEAUTIFUL ARMS AND PRETTY NOSE AND MOUTH.

EYE KNOW I'M A PRETTY MAN.

I KNOW I'M PRETTY.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME I'M PRETTY.

I'M COCKY, I'M PROUD.

NEVER TALK ABOUT WHO IS GOING TO STOP ME.

AIN'T NOBODY GOING TO STOP ME.

I SAY WAY WANT TO SAY.

>> HE WAS A PIONEER.

HE WAS A REVOLUTIONARY.

HE WAS A GROUND BREAKER, A GUY KNOWN SIMPLY AS THE GREATEST.

>> I AM THE GREATEST.

>> I'VE WRESTLED WITH ALLIGATORS TUSSLED WITH A WHALE, HANDCUFFED LIGHTNING AND PUT THUNDER IN JAIL.

YOU KNOW I'M BAD.

I CAN DROWN A DRINK OF WATER AND KILL A DEAD TREE.

>> THIS WILL BE NO CONTEST, WAIT UNTIL YOU SEE MUHAMMAD ALI.

TO HAVE THAT CHUTZPAH AND TO BE A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA WAS OUTLANDISH.

>> I JUST DON'T THINK I SHOULD GO 10,000 MILES I JUST CAN'T SHOOT IT.

>> I WONDER WHY MISS AMERICA WAS ALWAYS WHITE.

SANTA CLAUS WAS WHITE, WHITE CLOUD TISSUE PAPER.

AND EVERYTHING BAD WAS BLACK.

BLACK CAT WAS THE BAD LUCK.

AND IF I THREATEN YOU, I'M GOING TO BLACK MAIL YOU.

[LAUGHTER] I SAID MAMA, WHY DON'T THEY CALL IT WHITE MAIL.

THEY LIE, TOO?

>> I LOVE BEING AROUND MUHAMMAD ALI.

>> FLOAT LIKE A BUTTERFLY AND STING LIKE A BEE.

>> RUMBLE YOUNG MAN, RUMBLE.

>> THE PRICE OF FREEDOM COMES HIGH.

I HAVE PAID BUT I AM FREE.

>> FREEDOM, FREE FREEDOM ♪ HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION... >> OF ALL TIMES!

HEY, I'MA KEEP RUNNING BECAUSE A WINNER DON'T QUIT ON THEMSELVES >> HE CALLED HIMSELF THE GREATEST.

AND THEN PROVED IT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD HE WAS A MASTER AT WHAT WAS CALLED THE SWEET SCIENCE.

THE BRUTAL AND SOMETIMES BEAUTIFUL ART OF BOXING.

HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF JUST 22 YEARS OLD, HE WROTE HIS OWN RULES IN THE RING AND IN HIS LIFE.

INFURIATING HIS CRITICS.

BAFFLING HIS OPPONENTS AND RIVETTING MILLIONS OF FANS.

AT THE HEIGHT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, HE JOINED A SEPARATIST RELIGIOUS SECT WHOSE LEADER WOULD, FOR A TIME, DOMINATE BOTH HIS PERM LIFE AND HIS BOXING CAREER HE.

HE SPOKE HIS MIND AND STOOD ON PRINCIPLE, EVEN WHEN IT COST HIM HIS LIVELIHOOD.

HE REDEFINED BLACK MANHOOD, BUT BELITTLED HIS GREATEST RIVAL USING THE RACIST LANGUAGE OF THE JIM CROW SOUTH IN WHICH HE HAD BEEN RAISED.

BAN ISSUED FOR HIS BELIEFS, HE RETURNED TO BOXING AN UNDERDOG, RECLAIMED HIS TITLE TWICE AND GAME THE MOST FAMOUS MAN ON EARTH HE CRAVED ADD LAYINGS HIS ADULATION HIS WHOLE LIFE, SEEKING CROWDS ON STREET CORNERS, HOTEL LOBBIES AND AIRPORT TARMACS.

EVERYWHERE HE WENT AND REVELED IN THE UNINHIBBED JOY HE BROUGHT EACH ADORING FAN HE EARNED A MASSIVE FORTUNE, SPENT IT FREELY AND GAVE GENEROUSLY TO FAMILY, FRIENDS, EVEN STRANGERS ANYONE IN NEED.

SERVICE TO OTHERS, HE OFTEN SAID, THE RENT YOU PAY FOR YOUR ROOM HERE ON EARTH.

EVEN AFTER HIS BODY BEGAN TO BETRAY HIM, AND HIS BRAIN ABSORBED TOO MANY BLOWS, HE FOUGHT ON, UNABLE TO GO WITHOUT THE ATTENTION AND DRAMA THAT ACCOMPANIED EACH BOUT.

LATER, SLOWED AND SILENCED BY A CRUEL AND CRIPPLING DISEASE, HE FOUND RECEIVE REFUGE IN HIS FAITH, BECOMING A SYMBOL OF PEACE AND HOPE ON EVERY CONTINENT.

MUHAMMAD ALI WAS THE NOVELLEST NORMAN MAILER WROTE, THE VERY SPIRIT OF THE 20th CENTURY.

>> I'M ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE BLACK ONE WHO GOT BIG ON THE WHITE TELEVISIONS, WHITE NEWSPAPERS, WHITE SATELLITES, MILLION DOLLAR CHECKS AND STILL LOOK YOU IN THE FACE AND TELL YOU THE TRUTH AND 100% STAY AND REPRESENT MY PEOPLE AND NOT LEAVE 'EM AND SELL THEM OUT BECAUSE I'M RICH.

THAT WAS MY PURPOSE!

I'M HERE AND I'M SHOWING THE WORLD THAT YOU CAN BE HERE AND STAY FREE AND BE SURES YOURSELF AND GET RESPECT FROM THE WORLD.

>> Renee: I HAD THE PLEASURE OF SPEAKING WITH FILM MAKER SARAH BURNS, HER FATHER KEN BURNS AND HUSBAND DAVID McMAHON CREATED THIS WORK SIMPLY TITLED MUHAMMAD ALI.

AS YOU'LL HEAR FROM SARAH, ALI KNEW HE WAS DESTINED FOR GREATNESS.

AND AS TENACIOUS AS ALI WAS, SHE SAYS HE WOULD HAVE FOUND A WAY TO BE THE GOAT EVEN WITHOUT THE BOXING GLOVES.

SARAH BURNS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING A FEW MINUTES WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Renee: SO HAVE I YET TO SEE THE COMPLETE FILM.

BUT THE SERIES, FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN CLIPS AND TRAILERS IS A MULTIDIMENSIONAL APPROACH TO A MAN WHO WAS MORE THAN AN ATHLETE AND THE GREATEST.

AND I'M CURE WHY US ABOUT HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT MAKING THIS LONG FORM BIOGRAPHY ABOUT A MAN THAT MANY AMERICANS FEEL THEY ALREADY REALLY KNOW.

>> THE FILM IS EIGHT HOURS ALMOST.

FOUR PARTS AND WE KNEW THAT WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT CAPTURED HIS WHOLE LIFE NOTHING COULD BE TRULY COMPREHENSIVE BUT WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT WOULD GET TO HIS FAMILY LIFE, HIS CHILDHOOD, OBVIOUSLY HIS BOXING CAREER, THAT'S SO IMPORTANT BUT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BOXING WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE SPIRITUAL JOURNEY, DRAFT RESISTANCE AND TIE THE DIFFERENT PIECES TOGETHER INTO ONE BIG PORTRAIT.

AND WE INITIALLY THOUGHT WE MIGHT DO THREE PARTS, A SIX-HOUR FILM AND WE STARTED WRITING AND GO THE TO THE THIRD, YOU KNOW, FINISHED THREE EPISODES AND IT WAS ONLY 1974 AND HE HADN'T FOUGHT GEORGE FOREMAN.

THIS IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE BIGGER.

SUCH A BIG LIFE AND SO MUCH TO THE STORY.

SO WE IT KEPT GROWING IN THAT WAY BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO LOSE ANY OF IT.

AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS SO WELL DOCUMENTED.

SO MUCH INCREDIBLE FOOTAGE OF HIM TALKING, SPEAKING HIS MIND IN THE RING, OUT OF THE RING AND IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE WEALTH OF MATERIAL VISUAL MATERIAL.

COULD YOU GET TO KNOW HIM THROUGH THAT ONCAMERA MATERIAL THAT WAS JUST EXTRAORDINARY AND SOME OF IT SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE THERE IS A LOT OUT THERE THAT PEOPLE KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE ALI FANS ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT STUFF BUT THERE IS A LOT YOU HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE, TOO.

HOW OFTEN DID YOU SPEND IN LOUISVILLE?

HOW MUCH TIME, HOW MUCH RESEARCH AND WHAT DID YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT HOW LOUISVILLE SHAPED MUHAMMAD ALI.

>> WELL, WE ALL SPENT TIME IN LOUISVILLE.

I CAME AND FILMED A BUNCH OF INTERVIEWS WITH HIS BROTHER AND SOME FRIENDS FROM THE NEIGHBORHOOD, PEOPLE HE GREW UP WITH, WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN LOUISVILLE, PRODUCERS SPENT TIME LOOKING FOR PHOTOGRAPH AND FOOTAGE.

STEPHANIE FOUND FOOTAGE IN THE ARCHIVE WE BELIEVE IS THE EARLIEST EXISTING FOOTAGE OF YOUNG CASSIUS CLAY CHECKING IN FOR A BOXING MATCH AS A YOUNG TEENAGER.

AND SO THAT'S ALL REALLY EXCITING TRYING TO FIND THAT STUFF IN THE ARCHIVES THAT PEOPLE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE THAT HELPS US GET TO KNOW HIM ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG CASSIUS CLAY, TO GET TO KNOW HIS EARLY LIFE BETTER THAN WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEFORE AND SO WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO DIG UP THAT MATERIAL AND CERTAINLY LOUISVILLE IS HUGELY IMPORTANT IN SHAPING WHO CASSIUS CLAY, WHO MUHAMMAD ALI WAS FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE.

HE EXPERIENCES THE SEGREGATION OF LOUISVILLE AND IT IS PAINFUL TO HIM.

HIS FATHER IS FRUSTRATE STRAIGHT BY WHAT HE FEELS ARE THE LIMITED OPPORTUNITIES THAT HE HAS AS A PAINTER AND THAT ANGER AND FRUSTRATION IS SOMETHING HE EXPLAINS TO HIS SON AND THAT AFFECTS HIM, TOO.

HE HEARS ABOUT THE MURDER OF EMMITT HILL.

NOT IN LOUISVILLE BUT THAT AFFECTED PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND THAT'S DEFINING IN HIS CHILDHOOD AND HIS EXPERIENCE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE BLACK IN AMERICA ARE AT THE TIME HE IS GROWING UP BUT HE IS ALSO GROWING UP IN THE WEST END IN A REALLY LOVELY COMMUNITY WHERE HE FEELS SAFE AND SECURE AND SUPPORTED AND IN A BLACK COMMUNITY WHERE THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESSES, AND THERE IS A REALLY GREAT COMMUNITY THERE AND HE FEELS AMEND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT GROWING UP IN LOUISVILLE IS THE BEST POSSIBLE THING FOR HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND HIS NEIGHBORHOOD ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT TO HIM.

>> Renee: AND HIS FAITH AS A YOUNG CASSIUS CLAY AS A TEENAGER WAS EVEN STARTED TO BE NURTURED AT A YOUNG AGE IN THE NATION OF ISLAM.

>> YEAH, HE IS A DIEGOER WHEN-- A TEENAGER WHEN HE FIRST DISCOVERED A RECORD, BLACK MAN'S HEAVEN IS BLACK MAN'S HELL.

THIS IS PART OF THE MESSAGE OF THE NATION OF ISLAM AND WE THINK THAT'S HOW HE FIRST SORT OF STARTED HEARING THIS MESSAGE.

BUT I THINK IT REALLY SPEAKS TO HIM AND AGAIN GOING BACK TO THAT SEGREGATION AND THAT, THOSE QUESTIONS THAT HE HAD HIMSELF AS A CHILD, I THINK, THAT THE NATION OF ISLAM GAVE HIM SOME ANSWERS, GAVE HIM SOME SENSE OF WHAT THAT ALL MEANT.

AND I THINK HELPED HIM MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD AROUND HIM SO HE IS DEEPLY AFFECT BID THIS AS A TEENAGER.

HE OFFICIALLY NOUNSES HIS AMERICAN IN THE NATION OF ISLAM AS HE BECOMES THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION IN 1964, BUT HE HAS ALREADY BEEN ENGAGED IN THE NATION OF ISLAM FOR MANY YEARS BEFORE THAT.

ELIJAH MUHAMMED BECOMES AN IMPORTANT MENTOR TO HIM AND MALCOLM X IS LIKE A BROTHER FIGURE, A MENTOR, ALSO.

AND THIS IS, I THINK, VERY IMPORTANT TO THE WAY THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE WORLD.

I THINK ALSO WE DON'T-- WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS A PART OF THE NATION OF SLIM AND THAT TO THE END OF HIS LIFE HE PRACTICED THE MUSLIM FAITH BUT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HIS LIFE, I THINK WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT AS A SPIRITUAL JOURNEY.

THIS IS A PERSON WHO IS ASKING THESE BIG QUESTIONS AND WHO IS FINDING SOME ANSWERS IN THE NATION OF ISLAM, BUT IT EVOLVES ACROSS HIS WHOLE LIFE SO THAT AFTER ELIJAH MUHAMMED DIES, HE GOES WITH HIS SON WALLACE AS THE NATION OF ISLAM EVOLVES INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT IS CLOSER TO MAINSTREAM ISLAM AND HE TRAVELS THE WORLD AND HE HAS HAD HUGE INFLUENCE AND IMPACT ALL OVER THE MUSLIM WORLD BECAUSE OF WHAT AN IMPORTANT FIGURE HE'S BECOME AND WHAT A PLATFORM HE HAS.

>> Renee: I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK OF HIS LEGACY THAT HE LEAVES TO OTHER ACTIVIST ATHLETES, PARTICULARLY IN THE TIME THAT WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW?

HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPACTFUL FOR THEM?

>> I THINK IT'S HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I MEAN HIS DAUGHTER RASHEDA IS IN THE FILM AND SHE SAYS BOXING IS THIS MUCH AND HE WAS SO IMPORTANT SO FAR BEYOND BOXING AND SHE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT F. HE HAD NEVER DISCOVERED BOXING, I THINK WE WOULD STILL KNOW WHO HE IS.

>> Renee: INTERESTING.

>> I JUST THINK THAT BOXING WAS THE PLATFORM FOR HIM.

IT HAPPENED TO BE THE WAY THAT HE ACHIEVED THAT ABILITY TO SPEAK TO THE WORLD.

BUT I THINK THAT RASHEDA WAS RIGHT AND HE KNEW IT FROM THE TIME HE WAS A CHILD, THAT HE WAS BORN TO DO GREAT THINGS.

AND HE ACTED LIKE IT HIS WHOLE LIFE.

HE UNDERSTOOD THE IMPACT HE HAD ON OTHER PEOPLE AND I THINK THAT HE-- I THINK THAT INFLUENCED WHAT HE DID AND WHY BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT HE HAD THIS POWER, YOU KNOW, THIS CHARISMA AND THAT HE REALLY SHARED HIMSELF WITH OTHER PEOPLE BUT I THINK HE IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLY INFLUENTIAL IN TERMS OF ATHLETES PROTESTING AND NOT JUST ATHLETES BEYOND THAT BUT CERTAINLY AND THERE ARE SO MANY ATHLETES TODAY WHO ARE USING THEIR PLATFORMS TO TRY TO MAKE CHANGE AND THEY'RE ALL STANDING ON MUHAMMAD ALI'S SHOULDERS.

>> Renee: AND THE DEGREE AND LEVEL OF RISK THAT HE ASSUMED, TO TALK ABOUT SOCIAL ISSUES AND CROW EIGHT THAT PLATFORM, HAS BEEN AN INSPIRATION TO ATHLETES OFF THE MODERN TIME.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HIS COURAGE IS JUST INCREDIBLE.

I'M SO MOVED ALWAYS IN LEARNING MORE AND MORE ABOUT HIS STORY AS WE DID THROUGH MAKING THIS FILM, BY HIS COURAGE HIS COURAGE IN RESISTING THE DRAFT.

HE WAS PREPARED TO NOT ONLY GIVE UP HIS CA ROAR AND TITLE AT THE ABSOLUTE PEAK OF HIS CAREER.

I MEAN HE WAS UNBEATABLE AT THAT POINT.

AND HE GAVE UP THREE AND A HALF YEARS AND HE WAS PREPARED TO LOSE IT ALL.

PREPARED TO GO TO JAIL FOR FIVE YEARS AND AS HE SAID, PREPARED TO FACE MACHINE GUNFIRE BEFORE HE WOULD ABANDON HIS RELIGION.

MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA DISAGREED WITH THAT STANCE AT THE TIME, THE VIETNAM WAR WAS STILL FAIRLY POPULAR, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW HIM AS A DRAFT DODGER AND HOW COULD THIS MAN WHO PLAYS THIS VIOLENT PORT BE UNWILLING TO GO AND PARTICIPATE.

I THINK PEOPLE CAME TO RESPECT HIM FOR THAT CHANCE BECAUSE WHAT HAVE HE GAVE UP, HE GAVE UP SO MUCH AND EVEN THOUGH HE DID GET TO COME BACK TO BOXING AND HE DID GET TO BECOME CHAMPION AGAIN IT WAS A TOUGH CLAIM HE WAS NOT THE SAME FIGHTER WHEN HE RETURNED AND PEOPLE STARTED TO RECOGNIZE WHAT HE WAS WILLING TO GIVE UP BUT HE ALSO WAS JUST COURAGEOUS IN BEING HIMSELF HE WAS FREE.

HE WAS LIKE I AM GOING TO BE WHO I AM AND HE WOULD BRAG AND HE WOULD CLAIM HE WAS THE GREATEST WHEN HE WAS A TEENAGER AND HE WASN'T THAT GREAT YET AND IT'S A REALLY EXTRAORDINARY THING BECAUSE THIS IS A BLACK MAN GROWING UP IN AMERICA IN A SEGREGATED AMERICA IN THE 60s AND EVEN EARLIER AND YOU KNOW, THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF WHITE AMERICA WAS NOT COMFORTABLE WITH AND HE WAS UNAFRAID TO BE HIMSELF ALL THE TIME.

>> Renee: AND WE REMEMBER HIS BRAGGING HOW PRETTY HE WAS.

LOOK AT HIS SKIN, HIS BODY, HIS PHYSIQUE.

THE PHYSIQUE OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAD BEEN VILIFIED FOR SO LONG THAT HE CLAIMED AND OWNED WHAT HAD BEEN CREATED FOR HIM AND HIS ESTHETIC AND YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN YOU GO BACK AND HEAR HIM SAY I'M PRETTY, AIM PRETTY IT JUST PUTS A SMILE ON YOUR FACE.

>> IT DOES AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT HE WAS SAYING THAT BECAUSE HE WAS NOT JUST BRAGGING.

HE WAS BRAGGING AND THAT'S FINE AND WE ASSOCIATE THAT WITH EGO.

HERE IS A GUY WHO IS PROUD OF HIMSELF BUT HE IS ALSO SAYING I'M PRETTY, I'M BEAUTIFUL, AND YOU ARE, TOO AND THAT REALLY MEANS SOMETHING AND I THINK THAT'S A HUGE PART OF HIS INFLUENCE IS THAT ABILITY TO SAY I AM PROUD OF MYSELF.

I AM WHO I AM AND I'M GOING TO BE MY AUTHENTIC SELF AND THAT'S A GREAT THING I AM THE GREATEST AND THAT'S ALSO A WAY OF SAYING YOU ARE THE GREATEST, TOO.

>> Renee: AND YOU ARE RIGHT WHEN HE WAS FIRST FOUNDED BY Mr. MARTIN WHEN HE WENT TO THE BOXING RING.

HE SAID I DIDN'T THINK HE WAS ALL THAT GOOD, RIGHT?

BUT HE WAS DECLARING YOUNG CASSIUS CLAY AT THAT TIME, I'M GOING TO BE THE GREATEST AND SURE ENOUGH HE HAD A GREAT DEAL OF PRESENCE THERE.

YOU MENTIONED THE BRUTALITY OF THE SPORT OF BOXING BUT WHAT WE SAW IN MUHAMMAD ALI WAS ALMOST A FRAGILITY, A SENSITIVITY, A COMPASSION THAT SEEMED TO BE ANTITHETICAL TO WHAT THE SPORT WOULD DEMAND.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW HE WAS DID INDICATED TO IT.

AS SOON AS HE DISCOVERED BOXING, HE THROUGH HIMSELF INTO IT.

HE WAS DEDICATED TO IT.

HE WAS INCREDIBLY DEDICATED TO THE TRAINING AND TO BECOMING A GREAT BOXER' WORKED REALLY HARD AT IT.

HE WORKED HARD TO BECOME THE GREATEST, TOO AND I THINK HIS STYLE, ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLIER PART OF HIS CAREER WAS UNUSUAL.

YOU KNOW, HE KEPT HIS HANDS LOW, HE LEANED BACK TO AVOID BUNCHES WHEN-- PUNCHES WHEN NO TRAINER WOULD TELL TO YOU DO THAT.

THAT'S NOT HOW YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BOX.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS STRANGE AND NOT GOING TO BE VERY EFFECTIVE, BUT IT WORKED FOR HIM IN PART BECAUSE HE HAD THIS GENIUS, HE HAD THIS ABILITY TO MEASURE THE DISTANCE TO HIS OPPONENTS SO HE KNEW HOW FAR HE HAD TO LEAN BACK TO AVOID A PUNCH AND HE RARELY GOT HIT IN THAT EARLY PART OF HIS CAREER.

IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER HIS EXILE WHEN HE CAME BACK THAT HE STARTED TO BASE MORE OF THAT-- FACE MORE OF THE PUNISHMENT AND HIS LATER FIGHTS, THE THREE EPIC FIGHTS WITH JOE FRASER THAT ALL GO 15 ROUNDS FOR SNEERLY SO AND ARE BRUTAL AND YOU SEE HIM GETTING A KIND OF PUNISHMENT IN SOME OF THOSE FIGHTS LATER IN HIS CAREER THAT HE DIDN'T EXPERIENCE EARLY ON AND I THINK WE SEE THE EFFECT OF THAT LATER ON IN IS LIFE.

>> Renee: AND WE THINK, AS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LIGHTING OF THE 1996 OLYMPIC TORCH AND OF COURSE HIS VISIBLE SHAKING AND MANY PEOPLE REACTED TO THAT-- I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE SOME PEOPLE FELT PITY OR FELT GUILT THAT ALLOWED THIS PERSON TO ENTERTAIN, TO, YOU KNOW, HIS OWN PERIL IN SOME WAYS, AND I'M CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR VIEW ABOUT THAT MOMENT.

DID THAT, TO YOU, SHOW STRENGTH IN A WAY THAT MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT SHOWED WEAKNESS AND WHY WOULD HE PUT HIMSELF OUT THERE LIKE THAT IN THAT MOMENT OF VULNERABILITY AND SHAKING WHEN WE ALL REMEMBER THE STRONG TOWER OF STRENGTH IN MUHAMMAD ALI?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND SUCH A MEMORABLE MOMENT FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AND SUCH A MOVING MOMENT THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW, I WAS I DIDN'T FOLLOW HIS FIGHTS.

I WAS TOO YOUNG TO HAVE WATCHED HIS FIGHTS LIVE BUT I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT.

THAT WAS A DEFINING MOMENT FOR MUHAMMAD ALI THE 1996 OLYMPICS BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE IN AMERICA DIDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND THE STATE OF HIS DISEASE AND WHERE HE WAS IN THAT MOMENT AND SO I THINK IT WAS A REALLY MOVING MOMENT.

AND IT IS COMPLICATED, AS YOU SUGGEST.

I THINK THAT THERE IS AN ASPECT OF IT WHERE FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE HIM BEFORE, RIGHT, WHO DIDN'T LIKE THE BRAGGING, WHO DIDN'T LIKE THAT HE REFUSED TO GO TO VIETNAM, WHO WERE TURNED OFF BY HIS RELIGION A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO EMBRACE HIM IN A MOMENT WHERE HE WAS VULNERABLE, FRAGILE AND SHAKING AND HE IS UNABLE TO SPEAK ESSENTIALLY BY THAT POINT.

AND SO THAT'S COMPLICATED BECAUSE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE HIM FOR HIS OUTSPOKENNESS BEFORE WHO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH HIM NOW THAT HE HAS BECOME-- NOW THAT HE IS UNABLE TO SPEAK, THAT'S COMPLICATED.

BUT I ALSO THINK AND WE TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE FILM, SO IN THE FILM ABOUT JUST IT ALSO MAY BE THAT PEOPLE EVOLVE AND THAT WE DO FEEL SOME GUILT MAYBE FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HIM.

MAYBE WE FEEL SOME PITY BUT YOU KNOW, ALI HIMSELF WAS INITIALLY NOT SURE THAT HE WANTED TO DO THIS.

HE INITIALLY TURNED DOWN THIS OFFER TO LIGHT THE TORCH AT THE OLYMPICS BECAUSE I THINK HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE SEEN IN THAT VULNERABLE WAY AND IT WAS HOWARD BINGHAM, THE PHOTOGRAPHER AND HIS GOOD FRIEND WHO CONVINCED HIM THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT HE SHOULD DO THAT THIS WAS A HUGE PLATFORM, A HUGE STAGE WHERE BILLIONS OF PEOPLE WOULD BE WATCHING AND I THINK WHAT HE LEARNED, WHAT ALI LEARNED THAT FROM THE OUTPOURING OF LOVE AND SUPPORT THAT HE GOT WAS JUST HOW MUCH PEOPLE LOVED HIM AND STILL LOVED HIM AND WOULD LOVE HIM EVEN IF HE WAS VULNERABLE AND NOT THAT BEAUTIFUL FIGHTER OF INCREDIBLE POWER BUT THIS OLDER MAN WHO WAS NOW HOBBLED BY THIS TERRIBLE DISEASE.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN THE MUHAMMAD ALI CENTER OPENED IN LOUISVILLE.

IT WAS AN EXTRAVAGANZA.

I WAS HONORED TO BE IN THE ROOM.

THREE OR FOUR DAYS OF COVERAGE AND WHEN HE WALKED IN WITH CHRIS KISS TOFER SON, CHILLS-- KRIS CHRIS TOFERSON AND HIS HEALTH HAD DETERIORATED AND HE NEEDED SANES IN WALKING BUT HE PUT UP HIS FIST AND YOU JUST FELT LIKE YOU WERE-- YOU WERE IN THE MIDST OF THE GREATEST BUT YOU FELT LIKE YOU WERE IN THE MIDST OF A GREAT SPIRIT.

THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HIS AURA THAT WAS JUST HYPNOTIZING IN MANY WAYS.

>> I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN AND I NEVER HAVE BEEN IN THE SAME ROOM AS I AM BUT AS SOON AS WE STARTED WORKING ON THIS FILM AND TELLING PEOPLE WE WERE WORKING ON THIS PROJECT, EVERYBODY HAS A MUHAMMAD ALI STORY.

SO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET WHO WERE TOUCHED BY HIM AND SOMETIMES IT WAS EVEN IN THOSE TINIEST OF MOMENTS A BRIEF ENCOUNTER ON THE STREET CORNER SIGNING AN AUTOGRAPH AND NOT EVEN SPEAKING JUST BEING IN HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE AND WHAT THAT MEANT AND IT IS PERHAPS HIS GREATEST TALENT WAS HIS ABILITY TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE FEEL SPECIAL AND FEEL SEEN AND FEEL LOVED EVEN IN THESE BRIEF ENCOUNTERS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED ANOTHER PERSON WHO HAD THAT ABILITY IN QUITE THAT WAY JUST TO TOUCH PEOPLE.

EVERYONE HE CAME ACROSS AND YOU JUST REALIZE THAT WHEN YOU START TALKING TO PEOPLE BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE A STORY LIKE THAT.

>> THANK YOU.

YOU AND YOUR FATHER AND YOUR HUSBAND FOR GIVING US THIS GIFT, I WILL SAY OF MUHAMMAD ALI OF JUST HOW GREAT HE WAS AND THE LEGACY THAT HE LEAVES BEHIND, PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE WHO ARE FROM LOUISVILLE AND ALL OF US IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY WHO CLAIM HIM THANK YOU SARAH BURNS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> MY THANKS TO FILM MAKER SARAH BURNS FOR SHARING WITH US.

YOU CAN CATCH THE ENTIRE EIGHT-HOUR DOCUMENTARY ON KET.

CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS OR YOU CAN STREAM IT FROM THE KET AND PBS APP.

DON'T FORGET TO KEEP IN TOUCH WITH ME ON FACEBOOK TWITTER AND LISTEN TO PODCASTS OF CONNECTIONS OR OTHER PUBLIC AFFAIRS PROGRAMS AT KET.ORG/PODCASTS.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

UNTIL NEXT TIME, TAKE REALLY GOOD CARE.