>> From WXXI News, this is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in an old factory in Rochester, a former vanilla extract factory on the northwest side of town that maybe possibly used to produce more than just vanilla extract as Patrick Hosken reports in City magazine, the factory dates back to the 1800s, and it had a rather shady reputation then.

But now it's the home to a company called For Bitter For Worse, whose mission is decidedly not shady at all.

For Bitter For Worse joins the growing ranks of companies dedicated to creating adult beverages that do not contain alcohol.

The owners got some help from the Grow New York investment competition, moved here from Portland, Oregon, and they believe that the shift away from alcohol consumption is not a fad.

The numbers tell a rather surprising story.

After a spike in alcohol consumption during the pandemic, Gallup's newest poll found that only 54% of American adults self-identify as drinkers.

That is, the lowest number Gallup has ever recorded.

It doesn't mean that zero proof or alcohol free market is replacing alcohol.

As Hoskin points out, beer, wine and spirits generate about $70 billion in tax revenue annually.

The nonalcoholic market generates around 1 billion, but that number is definitely rising.

And so what is fueling the change?

Is it all about Gen Z and what exactly is zebra striping?

I've got a lot to talk about this hour, and I want to thank my colleague Patrick Hosken arts reporter for City Magazine for coming back in talking about this.

Thank you very much.

Here.

>> Yeah, thanks for having me.

>> And welcome to Bob Hartman, who is next to Patrick Co, owner of AltBar, which is what first of all, welcome Bob.

Nice to see you.

What is AltBar?

>> AltBar is a nonalcoholic bar.

So we do retail sales.

We do bar service, like nonalcoholic cocktails and nonalcoholic wine and beer like you would in a traditional bar.

But everything nonalcoholic.

And then we do like special events, catering, stuff like that, too.

But you know, all around what you're talking about in terms of, you know, serving the growing need for people who don't want to have alcohol at the center of the experience.

>> And where are you located?

>> We're on East Main Street in the North Winton Village.

>> Well, thank you for being here.

And on the line with us is Shelley Elkovich, who is the founder and the listed as the flavor maven of, for better or for Worse.

Hello, Shelly.

Welcome.

>> Hi, Evan.

Thanks for having me.

Hi, guys.

>> tell us what, for better or for worse, is.

>> So we make bold cocktails with love, not alcohol.

Some people might also call them mocktails.

And we have four expressions.

Two sparkling aperitifs and a red wine alternative, and a smoky, potent spirit alternative.

>> All right, so mocktails.

Very common term.

Some people in the industry don't love that term.

I know it's very common zero proof cocktail.

That's another term that you hear or zero proof alcohol or zero proof drinks.

So you're going to hear a sort of a range there.

Bob, what do you use most often?

>> We use both.

So the distinction we make at AltBar is a mocktail doesn't have any nonalcoholic spirits in it.

so it's juices, teas, sirups nothing that emulate alcohol.

And then we use nonalcoholic cocktails for the drinks that might use an Na gin or an Na whiskey, things like that.

It's not official.

It's the distinction we like to make, because for some people, they prefer to stay away from the Na spirits entirely, and for other people they like to have that kind of depth and complexity.

And maybe some of the reminiscent notes that that an alcoholic cocktail would have.

>> The one thing we're missing here, Patrick Hosken is Gen Z, because everyone wants to blame Gen Z. You know, they're they're not drinking, they're not going out, and they're not doing a lot of things here.

>> And as a millennial, I remember when we were getting blamed for everything to about 12 years ago.

>> Now you're no.

Now you get to be kind of the older guys.

How does that feel?

weird.

A little bit weird.

Yeah, but it's not just a Gen Z thing.

As your reporting finds here.

I mean, certainly during the pandemic, there was a surge in alcohol sales, but that is that story is very different five years later, isn't it?

>> Definitely.

And I also think like that's a huge component.

But I also the Gen Z portion.

But I also just think like as a and this is I haven't done the appropriate research on this, but I think the data like also points to just the disappearing of like physical spaces.

I know that's a lot of what we'll sort of talk about, but I think a lot of it is it can be driven by, you know, sort of one demographics behavior.

But it's not just like, oh, these people are doing something differently.

It's a lot of it is there's not as many spaces anymore.

I think, for people.

And or like the behaviors maybe that previous generations were doing don't seem as appealing for any number of reasons.

So.

But but it's a very complicated issue.

I think it's like tempting from a marketing or a trend watch standpoint to be like Gen Z's, you know, sort of driving down the trend.

But I think it's bigger than that.

>> Yeah.

And I think your story led me to if I'm going to try to characterize my generation, Gen Z would be the generation that is more likely to have total nondrinkers.

Whereas older generations are by number starting to drink less, they're still drinking, but drinking less by choice.

The interesting thing is, and Bob was pointing this out, I think this is a very important number to put out there, or at least kind of an idea to put out there.

We do not need to bifurcate this into either you drink or you don't.

What's the what's the stat you were kind of telling me about before the program here?

>> Yeah, I mean, the stats vary depending on what source you're getting them from, but they all pretty much align that it's 80 or 90% plus of people who buy nonalcoholic drinks still drink.

So it's not about abstinence like you're saying.

It's not about total sobriety for some you know, for some people it is.

Sure, sure.

But for for many people, for the majority of people who are drinking nonalcoholic beverages, it's about moderating.

It's about, you know, training for a race.

It's about being pregnant.

It's about some health concerns.

It's about just, you know, testing it out.

You know, the whole sober, curious, you know, verbiage that's been thrown out there.

You know, just just kind of experimenting.

>> And frankly, wanting to experiment because it is so much of a better scene than it used to be.

I mean, the quality that you find at AltBar with what Shelly's doing, it's a whole different world.

Not all that dissimilar to 15, 20 years ago.

You'd go to a restaurant, they'd be like, well, there's a vegan option.

Like, we didn't really we don't really care about it, but we want to have it now.

It's like we really care about every dish here and it's going to be great no matter what you get.

>> Yeah, it's it's a far cry from the joke.

You know, O'doul's is kind of the butt of all the jokes now, right?

But it's a far cry from having just an o'doul's offered on the menu.

And now, you know, there's.

I won't name brands and everything, but there's, you know, kind of a more contemporary joke on that regard.

But there's a lot of bars and restaurants that are putting real thought into this, and that's what we're trying to drive at AltBar.

I know Shelley's trying to do similar things too.

Is that you're it's don't be an afterthought, you know, don't don't just throw some Shirley Temple together and call it your mocktail, you know, have some.

Put the same care and energy and effort into your nonalcoholic options as you are your alcoholic options.

A because there's a big market for it.

There's you can drive your revenue, you know, more than just selling a club soda and lime and B because it's inclusive.

It helps welcome people in.

It's all about hospitality and the hospitality industry is about, you know, creating these experiences and welcoming people in.

>> Shelley's time is shorter.

So I got to get the story here.

So you come to Rochester, but you're you're coming from Portland.

So why here?

Why now?

>> So yes, we launched the brand in Portland actually in 2020, six weeks before lockdown.

And we love Portland.

However, we were looking for personal reasons to relocate to the East Coast, specifically New York State.

We wanted to be closer to our daughter, who lives in Harlem.

Everyone's quick to remind me that it's still a five hour drive away, but it's better than a five hour flight.

Yeah, yeah.

And so yeah, we were interested in we like smaller cities.

Started looking around, as you know, we were winners of the New York competition and investment competition that is about innovation in agriculture and food and beverage.

We were the first beverage company to ever win there.

We also received some other investment from Launch New York.

So, you know, we found the New York State has a lot of resources and a lot of support.

And so we were able to with this investment, look toward upstate New York.

And, you know, we really could have been anywhere in the upstate region.

And we focused on Rochester very quickly as an exciting city that's got, you know, cool food and beverage happening.

great workforce.

You know, there's so much manufacturing and food and beverage manufacturing here.

And it's a really friendly city.

So yeah, we've we moved here in mid-summer and we're we're just getting rolling.

So I did want to mention oh.

go ahead.

I was just going to say, you know, actually Patrick your your generation is the hero of, of this category because millennials are the ones that are driving the sales to date.

So while it does cut across all, all demographics in terms of moderation, especially millennials are the big consumers of this category.

>> Well, we're aging now, right?

I'm 35.

So there we go.

It's a little.

>> Different I'm so sorry.

>> But it's a different proposition than it was when I was 22.

So I think a lot of people do feel that way.

>> No, I mean like that's the whole that's the whole Nate Bargatze thing.

You know, in my 20s, people like you want to go out like, I'll go anywhere you want to go.

Like, how late you want to stay up?

And the, you know, in my 40s, it's like, why would you even ask me?

You know, like, you know, now you're in the middle of that, Patrick.

You're in the.

Okay, but how late do we need to stay out?

Do I do I have to wear pants?

Like, what's what are all the questions involved?

>> And that's why in talking to Bob, Bob's the first one who told me about zebra striping.

Who gave it a name?

It's like, this is a practice.

>> You had to define this real.

>> Quick that I knew about, but I had not known the name before.

So the name is like is basically alternating between alcoholic and nonalcoholic drinks.

So yeah.

The way that you would in zebra striping.

So it's I and I guess that could encompass like, you know, the practice of whether that nonalcoholic drink is a water, a seltzer or whatever, or it could be something a little bit more exciting, I guess, something a little bit more intentional, craft centric, anything like that.

>> Yeah.

You don't have to take a break from having an adult beverage that has sophistication and depth just because you don't want to have four alcoholic drinks in a row.

>> So, Shelly, I know your time is short here, so why don't you just give us a sense for what you think the future looks like for you?

It sounds like it's going well so far, but, I mean, what kind of growth do you expect?

Where do you.

Where are people going to find the products?

If you're successful?

Companies like yours.

I'm trying to get a sense of, do you want to be in stores?

You want to be in bars?

Are you going to have your own location?

What do you want to do?

>> Yeah, so thanks for asking.

So yeah, the category, as you know, is growing fast.

It's projected to double again within five years.

And we think about our place in it.

We think about a couple of things.

we're building a company that has longevity, you know, so we're looking at our mission.

We're focused on our on our purpose for being, which is to co-create a healthier and more inclusive culture within that.

Yes, we produce drinks and we you know, you were talking earlier about evolution in, in the beverage world and.

Yeah.

O'doul's.

Right.

So if you look at coffee and you think about that, there's been like three waves and we're now, you know, first there was Folgers, then Starbucks, and then these more artisanal, you know, coffee roasters and coffee companies.

And that's where we're just entering now is this third wave of the adult nonalcoholic beverage that I'm really excited about.

You know, it started with O'doul's.

And then there were more industrial products that, you know, arguably had better flavor, but were still, you know, quite an industrial approach.

And now what we're seeing is this craftsmanship and this attention to quality and craft.

And in our case, also clean label.

I mean, that's where we are really prepared to lead.

We have the cleanest, most inclusive label in the category.

So we start with certified organic botanicals.

We don't use anything lab derived, and we know that clean labels, the fastest growing area of interest with food and beverage consumers.

And that's one of the reasons why I'm excited about the maturation and the growth of Gen Z, who are right now not huge consumers of the category, but they are really expansive, non-binary thinkers who care a lot about what is in the glass or what is on the label.

And, you know, they do their research about companies.

These are folks who aren't going to be fooled by greenwashing, for example.

So I see this as a lasting change in terms of socializing, you know, it's already part of the mainstream.

And then you add things like cannabis and psilocybin to the mix.

So you could see why there are people who are maybe altering their experience, but they are still not consuming alcohol.

And the other thing I'm excited about for us as a company is that we also contract manufacture.

So we make our own drinks, and then we also produce for other beverage brands.

And so that's sort of elevating the next wave of new innovators.

And that can be anything from cold brew coffee to mocktails to functional drinks.

You know we do all of that.

So it's an exciting time.

>> So where do they find your stuff, Shelley.

>> Yeah.

Well, you can find us at AltBar.

for sure on our website, For Bitter For Worse.com.

Amazon.

And then look for us at Whole Foods throughout New York State in January.

>> So before I let you go here, you talk about this third wave concept.

And I think that's a really good way of describing because I think it gives people a good reference point in that, in that kind of vein, what's your best seller and what's in it?

>> Okay.

So our right now our there are two that are kind of tied honestly.

But let's go with Eva spritz because it's historically been the best seller.

it's made with rhubarb juice, hibiscus, bitter orange peel.

it's herbaceous.

It's a spritz.

It's sparkling.

So it gives you that bitterness with a little bit of citrus qualities.

Nothing that we do is a mimic.

We don't make alcohol analogs.

So that's the other interesting thing about Bob's definition.

You know, we're not a mocktail in the sense that it's not juice and not rhubarb.

Without spirits, we make our own sort of bespoke spirit using as a base for our drinks, but we don't make anything that is like a gin and tonic or, you know, an alternative whiskey, let's say, if that makes sense.

>> Well, I really appreciate you coming in.

And, you know, you guys are new to town here, so come back sometime.

Tell us how life in Rochester is sometime in studio.

And we'll we'll talk more at length on a different day.

>> I'm enjoying the first snow here today.

>> Yeah.

Sorry about that.

It's a little early for that.

>> You know, I gotta start with the positive attitude.

>> Well.

>> Shelly, thank you very much.

Good luck to you guys.

>> Thanks.

Thanks for having me.

>> Shelley Elkovich is founder and the flavor maven of For Bitter For Worse.

You can read about Shelly's business in Patrick Hosken piece in City Magazine this month.

It's called In Good Spirits and Bob Hartman is with us, co-owner of AltBar in Rochester.

let me grab a phone call from Ian in Greece.

Hey, Ian.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

Thanks for taking my call.

Bob's a good to talk to you.

we've done some events together.

I'm a bartender in Rochester, and I've been sober about nine years.

And AltBar kind of popping up, as, you know, kind of like a pop up with, you know, kind of floating pop ups over the last couple of years has been really amazing.

And now that the the brick and mortar is open, it's really offered a really amazing avenue for people who are, you know, sober, sober, curious or just trying to, like, find something new that they maybe haven't tried before.

but just my perspective as somebody who is working in traditional bars in.

The craft scene, in particular there's a bunch of trends that I'm sure Bob is aware of as well, that of just the kinds of people that are looking for nonalcoholic offerings these days has changed a lot.

I mean, since I've really started bartending, that, you know, it was like a something fun fruity.

And now it's really transitioned to, like looking for complexity, looking for layers.

the one thing that I have found that is maybe a little disheartening in a lot of places that are traditional bars that are starting to offer more nonalcoholic options, is the kind of lack of awareness about sometimes present alcohol flavors or, flavors that the bartenders maybe aren't always aware of.

Particularly bitter brands that are, you know, by volume, sometimes up to 40% 50% alcohol.

And they're just dashing that into what is what they believe is a nonalcoholic offering without really checking with the guests, like, hey, look, I may be using some flavors in here that have some kind of trace amount of alcohol.

I just wanted to make sure that was okay with you.

and that's that's something that I think really comes with awareness and brands that are getting away from that, or at least boosting awareness, I think are really important to the movement because me as somebody who is in bars is around alcohol all the time.

I don't mind if you do a dash of Angostura bitters in my nonalcoholic drink, but that isn't always the case, and I think it's really important that bartenders around the city start to be more aware of the times that they are using alcohol, sometimes without even realizing it.

Even in trace amounts.

Everybody has different sensitivities, health issues, whatever.

And I think having nonalcoholic offerings that are strong in flavor so you can get away from those things is really, really important.

And that's why these brands and these stores are so, so important.

>> Ian, thank you for the phone call.

What do you think, Bob?

>> Oh, I can't agree more.

you know, first of all, Ian's like you said, we've worked together a little bit.

He's taught me so much about bartending and about nonalcoholic drinks, you know, and that's one of the things that this community in Rochester is so awesome that people who do drink, people who don't drink, everyone's coming together to try to do the same thing, which is this inclusivity, inclusion and this just positive guest experience.

But to Ian's point, you know, bitters are the biggest culprit.

You know, fee brothers here in town, they're nonalcoholic.

They might have trace amounts in them.

You know, most of them.

I can't speak for all the bitters, but most of them are nonalcoholic but have trace amounts less than 0.5%.

Kind of a thing.

But even that, for some people, makes them uncomfortable.

So if we're talking about, like, full sobriety, full abstinence, for some people, there's a big distinction between less than 0.5 percent and 0%.

And so even when you were saying earlier about like zero proof cocktails, if you're going to list something as a zero proof cocktail, it better be 0%, because that's what zero means zero.

Zero means zero.

And for religious reasons, for sobriety, reasons for recovery, reasons for medical reasons.

Some people prefer to stay zero zero, and the less than 0.5 isn't good enough for them.

And and and we respect that AltBar we have everything labeled less than 0.5 or zero zero.

We do dabble in both.

But like Ian mentioned, there's also more solutions and products out there that are zero zero like we use another bitter company that's zero zero entirely for bitters, because we want to make sure that we're, you know, able to do that for for 0%.

>> Good stuff there.

Ian, thank you for that phone call.

And thanks for I think shedding light on an important part of this, because this conversation and Patrick's piece is it's not just about one category of drinker.

It is about zebra striping.

It's about people who are making this choice that is permanent and fixed.

It's about people who just want a nice mix.

sort of in, in their social life, I would think, Bob, tell me if I'm wrong when I, when I this is where my mind goes on the future of places like AltBar.

I would think you're definitely going to have the people who are looking for an alternative for permanent reasons.

They don't drink anymore.

Maybe they're sober, maybe they're celebrating their sobriety and they don't want to go back.

But I don't think that you would succeed long term if you also couldn't attract people who do drink alcohol and do want just some good stuff, whether it's alcohol or not.

>> Absolutely.

>> I would think you got to be able to get both right.

>> Absolutely.

Yeah.

And that's and that's part of our mission.

You know, our mission is to not, you know, to be an alternate for people in Rochester that don't want to have alcohol at the center of the experience.

And it doesn't matter why, like one of our taglines, our unofficial taglines is, we're never going to ask you why you're not drinking.

You know, it might be because you're zebra striping.

We've got people that come in and go to an alcoholic bar and then come to AltBar afterwards, and then go to another alcoholic bar just to extend their night.

But it might be for people that are totally abstinent and so like, to your point, you know, we need to make sure that we are being if we're going to be truly inclusive, inclusive, then we need to be including people who do drink as well as who don't drink.

And one of my favorite moments every night is when somebody who does drink has a nonalcoholic drink and their eyes light up like, oh, shoot, this is this isn't bad.

Like, this is actually, this is really good.

Like, and we've got multiple people who actually prefer some of our cocktails or nonalcoholic cocktails to the alcoholic counterparts because we're able to still do with these different ingredients, with what Shelly's doing, with what other people are doing in the industry, you were able to make carefully crafted, complicated cocktails.

>> Patrick, do you get a chance to sample a little bit for your reporting?

>> Well, yeah, actually, just after I went into AltBar and about a week ago and I would say moments, moments after I walked in, I was sampling the most delicious sparkling rosé and a that I think I had ever tried.

I mean, I think that was the only, to be fair, the only sparkling rosé na that I'd ever tried.

But it was delicious.

Yeah, there's it can only go down from there.

it was great.

Yeah.

And it was, it was fun to like, I guess to that point.

It was fun to go into the go into AltBar and, like, immediately get the warm welcome and just kind of be the recipient of the bartender who was your wife who just began pouring immediately.

I think there was something really nice about that and welcoming.

And I think to your point of inclusivity, it definitely felt that way.

And it was I mentioned this before, but like, it was a terrible day.

It was like really rainy and gross and it was nice to like, come in and shake off the umbrella, try a little a little a little like yeah.

Layered complex to Ian's point.

flavor.

That was yeah, it was, it was a nice, a nice moment to to experience that.

>> What's in the sparkling rosé?

>> It's dealcoholized rosé wine.

So this was from Thompson and Scott Norton was the brand.

they're out of the UK.

They use German grapes, but they're they're going through a process of actually dealcoholized the wine.

so it starts out as alcoholic wine, and then it gets dealcoholized down to 0%.

So this is my my favorite sparkling rosé.

That's why I say you've only got you know, you got spoiled.

If it's your first one, you know, because there's a lot of unfortunately there's a lot of not great Nahe wine out there too.

>> In that sense.

Do you agree with Shelley in in her characterization of that?

It is now like a third wave that there was the o'doul's of the world.

Then there was kind of an industrialization, a ramping up of efforts.

But products that were, you know, sort of debatable in quality.

And now you've got a really a craft scene that is next level.

Do you think that's a fair description of it?

>> I do, I don't think it's 1 to 1 in the, in the analogy, but I think it's it's pretty darn close.

you know, you look at the if you look at the, the most popular brands that we sell, at least most of them are craft, most of them are small batch, most of them are small mom and pop type companies.

You know, one of my favorite ones is out of San Diego, and it's like a small, small outfit and they ship us direct.

but it's almost like a reverse third wave in the, in the sense that now the big money is starting to jump in.

So if you look at like, like Constellation Brands locally, you know, they've got a Corona Zero, they're coming out with a modelo zero if it's not already out yet.

You know, you look at some of the other, you know, Budweiser or Heineken or whoever, like, it's more on the beer side.

But even some of the gin brands or the spirit brands, rather like Tanqueray, has a zero.

Now on Europe.

I don't think it's available domestically yet.

So it's it's I think it's similar, but it's also almost reverse where we were kind of more grassroots at first.

And now the big money.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the industrialization catches up.

And if the craft side of things is still going to prevail, or if the bubble's going to burst a little bit.

>> Because that's my thought.

So not not to think that the that the lifestyle trend is a bubble at all, because I think the data bears that out.

But that was my question.

And hearing that, I'm like, I'm wondering when the when you're talking about big companies getting involved in the money, getting involved.

Then I started wondering, well, how long is that going to last before something changes?

And, you know, things start going in a direction where you're starting to lose a little bit of the craft, the bespoke all that stuff.

>> So because what's important here is availability and access.

What's important here is the ability to build community, to have a social experience and not have alcohol be the center of the experience.

If you don't want it to be.

And you know what we've been talking about so much is the product itself, the drink, the tangible thing in your hand.

But what it's a lubricant, no pun intended for for socialization, for community, for relationships.

And if you look through like you know what any alcoholic bar or maybe not any, but most alcoholic bars or restaurants are trying to do is it's trying to build and foster that community.

It's like cheers, where everybody knows your name and what what we're talking about now is the growth, the lifestyle change is it doesn't have to be like an alt bar where it's totally, you know, sober and no alcohol on premise, but just options for people to engage in community and engage in those relationships, because that's what we're really selling is we're selling the experience.

>> Let me grab a phone call from Frank in Greece next.

Hey, Frank, go ahead.

>> Hello.

I just wanted to say Evan, I happen to be mutual friends with one of your friends, and Fanning.

And I know you can't endorse a product or service, but I know Avi Fanning runs a a cocktail bar on or about the South wedge, possibly South Clinton area.

And I want you to know, I've never felt pressured or coerced to drink.

And a good bartender and a good friend.

A good friend never demands that you drink when you don't want to drink a glass of water, Cup of coffee.

Ginger ale is always appropriate.

And I just want to pass that on.

And, I'll give you a little hint.

If you see the 99 grocery, the 999 grocery someplace off South Clinton, you know, you're getting close to any fanning.

Thank you very much.

>> Thank you.

Frank.

No, I mean, he's been on this program.

Cheshire is a great place.

He is brilliant and trains people really well.

I've never been in an establishment that she has been a part of where I.

>> Let me put it this way.

I would have be surprised to ever see someone like Frank feel pressured by Evie or any of Evie's employees, or I hope most of the places in this city.

I really, really hope that.

Because, Frank, when you talk about, well, a glass of water or a cup of coffee or a ginger ale is always appropriate, of course.

But part of what, Bob, part of what Shelly are doing is saying to you, you are not like sort of the outlier of the crowd that has to stand in the corner and drink ginger ale.

You can be the center of the experience and the center of the menu with an intentional approach here that has no alcohol at all.

And it's all about having a good time with something interesting.

But but I appreciate that, Frank.

And you know, Bob, do you have first time customers who are nervous or maybe have had that pressure experience that Frank is talking about?

>> I don't know about pressure as much as it's the afterthought side of things that you were talking about.

You know, we talk about the ROI of joy and part of the ROI of joy at AltBar is seeing people feel like they're like, you just said, they're the center of the experience.

They're not an outlier.

They're not on the fringes.

They're not an afterthought.

They're not, oh, we got to do something because the person who doesn't want to drink is here.

It's you're we're here for you and you're worthy of respect and joy and dignity.

And we want to make sure that we're putting the same amount of effort into what we're serving you as, what we're serving to anybody else, and to to Frank's point, you know, I actually learned a lot about what we do at AltBar at Cheshire because it's it's about hospitality.

You know, again, nobody's pressuring you there, but it's about like, being included and being in a warm, welcoming environment and not like the cocktails there were great.

From what I remember before I quit drinking.

But it but that wasn't the point.

The point wasn't having a reviver or whatever they were.

The point was being there with friends or family or loved ones and and just having a great time.

>> After we take our only break, we've got some really good listener questions.

One is asking if a mock Manhattan or a mock mojito tastes like a Manhattan or mojito.

So that that question, though, I think, presumes some things.

I mean, it's a fair one.

We'll ask Bob when we come back here, but there's a big, big range when we talk about zero proof drinking and we talk about mocktails, if you like that term or just the the Na scene, there's the O'tooles and the Na beers, but there's Na wines and beers that are a little more thoughtful than O'doul's.

No offense, don't sue me.

there are some, really, as Shelly was describing some really interesting drinks that are not meant to mimic a Manhattan or a mojito or anything.

They're meant to be their own thing.

And then, yeah, there's there's these products that are meant to say, hey, I love Manhattan.

I'm not drinking anymore.

I'd love something that is close to Manhattan.

So it's a big wide range.

I find that really interesting.

If you've ever been to the Finger Lakes during harvest time and they're pressing and someone on the crew gives you just a little bit of free run juice of Riesling, you're tasting grape juice you've never tasted before.

I mean, it's so good.

And you go, like, what?

I just want to drink this.

Well, now you probably can drink more of that, things like that.

So Patrick Hosken wrote a really good piece called In Good Spirits for the new edition of City Magazine, and we're talking about the drinking scene as we go to break.

A little, little question for our listeners, if you want to email us Connections at wxxi.org.

If you want to join the chat on YouTube, you want to give us a call at 8442958442958255.

I'm curious to know if you are drinking less or more than the pandemic time, because a lot of people drank a little bit more during the pandemic.

Maybe you had a cup of coffee in the morning, maybe one in the afternoon, maybe a cocktail at five, or maybe that was just me.

But, I wonder if things have changed for you and why they've changed.

If it's health, if it's for different reasons, I'd love to get your experience.

As we talk about the rise of the Non-alcohol scene in Rochester.

I'm Evan Dawson Tuesday on the next Connections, we talked to members of the local Muslim community about the victory of Zohran Mamdani in the New York City mayor's race.

Some in the local Muslim community say this is a seismic event for them.

We'll talk about that in our second hour with rural hospitals struggling with FEMA funding cut in a lot of places, the need for volunteers is increasing, but volunteering is going down.

We'll talk about that too.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Jason writes to say French bloom zero alcohol French sparkling will be carried by all New York State.

Wegmans stores.

So for people who are like how can we have wine and grocery store?

Well, Wegmans is going to get on the alcohol.

Don't worry, Bob, Wegmans and grocery stores will take over the market.

Is this a good thing for you guys or is this a challenge.

>> For you?

>> It's a complicated thing.

so Wegmans is is great and I love their nonalcoholic selection is expanding because it is about everything we've been talking about.

It's about including people.

It's about, you know, making sure that you've got the right options for the right people.

And as a nonalcoholic shop here in Rochester that does retail sales, they're a competitor.

And so where we draw our distinction between us and Wegmans is you can come in and try almost anything before you buy it at AltBar because, you know, not maybe the canned beverages, but like most of the spirits, we have nonalcoholic spirits we have open for our bar service and everything.

You know, we want to involve people and like trying things and trying new stuff and finding what they like, because there's a lot of variety out there.

And, you know, we we can't compete with Wegmans.

So we kind of like, you know are like, you know, if you've got a large box store, liquor store versus like a kind of a boutique, you know, liquor store that might have more, you know, carefully curated stuff.

That's kind of what we try to do.

But overall, a rising tide is lifting all boats in this industry.

>> Okay.

Fair enough.

Jason, thank you for that.

and to the question from a listener about do you have nonalcoholic Manhattans and mojitos that taste like Manhattans and mojitos?

I want Bob to answer this.

Let me start with this.

How often does somebody come into AltBar and just say, give me a Manhattan with no alcohol?

>> Almost every day?

Maybe not a Manhattan in particular, but.

But here's an alcoholic drink that I really like.

Here's a margarita, here's a Manhattan.

Here's an old fashioned.

I want to have that, but I don't want to have alcohol.

And we, depending on the drink, you know, not getting into all the details, we can get pretty darn close, if not almost to the point where, you know, if you had one side by side, it would be hard to tell.

And that's not because of us and our bartenders and their expertise, although that helps a heck of a lot.

But it's because the industry is blowing up.

You know, we have so many.

We have nonalcoholic vermouths.

We have nonalcoholic amaros, we have nonalcoholic you know, whiskeys and gins and tequilas.

And then, like Shelly was mentioning, there's also a lot of stuff out there that doesn't emulate anything like alcoholic, but is just really cool and interesting in and of itself.

And so we actually have a Manhattan on the menu right now that is a little bit of a riff on a Manhattan, because it's using a nonalcoholic Amaro ish substitute.

and then the, the instead of vermouth.

And so it's reminiscent of a Manhattan, but it's kind of doing its own thing.

so, so yeah, the short answer is, yes.

You know, we can we can do most of those pretty close.

But the longer answer is are the the favorite drinks that people have at AltBar tend to be the more unique creations or the riffs on the Traditionals.

>> Okay let's see, Alex wants to know any plans at AltBar to eventually serve alcohol with the Na options you have?

>> We get asked that question a lot.

the answer is no.

you know, we we believe and we are supporting alcoholic establishments, offering more Na options.

And so we think there are dozens, if not soon, hopefully more than dozens of locations around Rochester where you can get alcohol and nonalcoholic drinks that are still carefully crafted.

We our niche in the market, you know, from a business perspective and from what we're trying to do from a mission perspective, is to be totally nonalcoholic.

>> And no change there.

So I am I want to challenge a little bit of what you just said, though, Bob, you really want more restaurants and bars to offer.

Na because when they do now I don't have to go to AltBar.

It's like there's really good stuff out there and there's more that are doing that.

That's not a challenge to you.

>> It's not a challenge.

In fact, we even offer like consulting services and we actually not even just consulting like business consulting, but like like chef restaurant that just opened.

They buy their nonalcoholic spirits from us and we give them a discount on it.

So like we have partnerships with local bars and restaurants to help them because at this point, you know, and again, from a business perspective, from a from a maturation cycle perspective of the industry, a rising tide really does lift all boats.

If people understand that they can get a nonalcoholic drink that tastes just as good as an alcoholic drink, then it's going to help our clientele and our and our business.

There may be, and hopefully there will be in the future, a time where it is more competitive and that we enter a hyper competitive environment from a business perspective.

But we're not there yet.

>> The one road bump for me with an Na cocktail is my guess is it's really crushable.

>> They can be.

>> You know, you may you may nurse a daiquiri for a classic daiquiri for half an hour and you're going to crush the AltBar menu.

I mean, like, that's a compliment to what you're making.

But I don't know.

Patrick.

Did you feel like, whoa, I could really drink this pretty fast?

>> Here's what I thought when I brought home that rosé, which I did drink with my wife, was that we drank the first glasses very quickly because it was delicious.

Yeah.

And because of that.

But it's like we were just, like, ever more so in tune with the flavors because there was no alcohol in it and so on.

The.

So we had a second glass and we drank the second glass very slowly.

We kind of nursed it because we were like, oh, well, it was so good the first time.

But let's like, I don't know, see what's going on from a, a complex, layered perspective the second time.

So that's totally anecdotal, but my experience was the first glass was heavily crushable, the second one was a little bit more to be savored.

>> Yeah, I think that's.

>> A good description.

What do you think, Bob?

>> Yeah, I would challenge and say that if you go to a good alcoholic cocktail bar, you're going to have a similar experience in a lot of those cocktails, too, because if they're so well balanced and well crafted, they can be crushable.

But there's something psychological in the back of your head that says, I got to drive home.

And so that's kind of the similar experience we have at AltBar is, you know, we have a lot of bitter drinks, we have a lot of drinks that have spice and savory notes and things that that, you know, you could drink fast, but you're going to choose not to because you want to really savor it and enjoy the experience.

That being said, it's it's definitely like especially first timers definitely drink their drinks a little bit quicker.

In general.

>> Okay.

>> But also you've paid for the drink.

So it's like, well, let's let's savor it a little bit.

That's my view, a little bit like, you know, and I think that yeah, whatever, whatever speed bumps get you to savor the flavors of the drink.

>> Once in a while at home, I'll make.

I think it's listed.

I mean, I probably make a messed up version of it's a sparkling almond, which is orgeat lemon juice and some kind of sparkling water.

and I never make it the same way twice, but it's always delicious.

But you know, that lemon juice that that acidity slows you down a little bit.

But I my experience with those is like, oh, boy, got to make a big batch of sparkling almond because it's really, really tasty.

but I mean, that's I think to Bob's point, people can get out of hand too when there's alcohol.

And, you know, it's the same kind of consideration.

Rick in Irondequoit is on the phone next.

Hey, Rick, go ahead.

>> Good afternoon.

I was listening earlier when you had mentioned that some of the bitters has alcohol, and I never knew that personally.

being the health industry, there are people that are put on a drug called antabuse, which they cannot drink alcohol because they have to stop.

And if they happen to take in alcohol on that drug, it's not going to be pretty.

I mean, it's like they need to vomit instantly.

So I don't know if people ask or if that's something that's brought up to people that, you know, you that's told to them that, yes, there is traces of alcohol in it because it has that.

I don't know if that's ever occurred, but I could certainly see how that could have potential to be a disaster.

>> Rick, I appreciate that.

And NIH says Antabuse also known it's also disulfiram works by increasing the concentration of acetaldehyde, a toxic byproduct that occurs when alcohol is broken down in the body.

Excess amounts cause unpleasant symptoms, such as nausea and flushing of the skin.

But in general, I think, Bob, that was the point you were making earlier.

People do this for health reasons, and you got to know that zero is zero.

>> Yeah, that's why I really appreciate Ian's call earlier, because it's bitters are the major culprit, right?

Like, you know, you know, if you're picking up an alcoholic bottle of gin versus a nonalcoholic bottle.

>> Of gin.

>> The culprit of.

I didn't know I was drinking alcohol, and I got a little alcohol.

>> Yes.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's the major culprit of where I see nonalcoholic menus go awry is because, like, like Rick said, a lot of people just don't know.

They don't know that these Angostura bitters are 80 proof, you know, and 40% alcohol.

so.

>> That's why it's that high.

>> Some of them can be.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

I've actually yeah.

I won't go off on a tangent on that.

But what I will say is bitters make the cocktail too though.

And so many of the cocktails, you know, they're the seasoning.

Like you're not going to cook without salt and pepper and oregano or whatever your garlic powder or whatever you're using you for good nonalcoholic cocktails and for good alcoholic cocktails, you should be using bitters in certain ones to help bring out elevate the flavors, add depth, add complexity, and so on the one hand, I love seeing bars and restaurants using bitters and nonalcoholic cocktails because it's showing that they're putting some actual thought into it.

On the other hand, they got to disclaim it if it's going to be any kind of trace amount, alcohol or there are nonalcoholic zero 0% bitters out there as well.

>> How are the the nonalcoholic bitters?

>> Phenomenal.

Like, oh they are.

Yeah.

So we use I'm not trying to make a commercial here, but we use a company out of Chico, California.

There were two French Laundry sommeliers that quit drinking and they started a bitters company.

And it's I would put them, you know, I don't drink anymore.

So I, you know, but my wife still does occasionally.

And she would put them side by side with any alcoholic bitters out there.

>> Oh, that's that's very impressive.

And two sommeliers from the French Laundry stopped drinking.

What a.

>> Story there.

That's that's a resume, right.

You know, like that's that's a resume for for what they're trying to build and and again, small batch mom and pop shop you know company of like five employees and they're changing the world.

They're changing our country in terms of what we can offer for for drinks.

>> Patrick, you ever been to the French Laundry?

>> I have never.

>> Me either.

They wouldn't let us in.

I think they might, but you got to get a reservation.

Well, in advance.

>> I see.

>> I think it's still a thing.

I think it's still a thing.

we're we're talking about the the nonalcoholic drink scene, and I want to get back to your emails in just a moment.

we're talking to Bob Hartman, who is co-owner of AltBar in Rochester.

officially opened at the space you're in in 2024.

>> That's correct.

>> Summer 2024 started as pop ups post pandemic, is that right?

>> Yep.

December of 21.

We did our first pop up.

>> And Patrick Hosken arts reporter for City Magazine with me in studio, helping guide the ship.

His piece in this edition of city is called In Good Spirits, and Patrick wrote about Shelley Elkovich and the team of For Better or For Worse, Shelley joined us earlier this hour.

That's a really fun story of a Portland couple that moves to Rochester.

They want to be closer to family in New York City, and they end up winning a couple.

They win a contest, they get a grant.

Now they're up and running and doing really interesting things.

The scene is really growing.

How big Bob can the scene get realistically when you talk about rising tide lifts all boats?

Until when?

>> That was my question as well.

Very interested to know the answer.

>> Yeah, so my crystal ball has been broken for a long time.

but.

>> Same.

>> I would guess we could easily double or triple, you know, within 5 to 10 years, you know, without any trouble.

I, I don't know, I don't think it'll ever surpass alcoholic sales, you know, but but then again, you know, when people were smoking, you know, they probably never thought that there'd be more nonsmokers than smokers.

So I don't think from a from a consumer perspective, you'll see higher sales than, than alcoholic sales.

But I do think it's got I could see half a dozen spots here in Rochester being totally sober and and all surviving and thriving.

>> And one of them just just to jump in.

So the sort of impetus for doing this piece was the news in September that, the music venue and restaurant, Flower City Station is going to go in a direction and frankly, already has.

they just haven't launched yet.

But in a direction of having essentially no alcohol and becoming an all ages space.

So shows now are all ages.

I think it's 18 and up.

No guardian.

But for they've opened up their shows that way.

They want to evolve into and this is a quote, Rochester's first nonalcoholic music cafe.

Functional beverage bar, full dining experience, hemp shop and local merch and art hub.

So it's very ambitious, I feel like.

But that I think is a good example.

And this is something we talked about when we had our conversation for the piece.

Bob is, you know, I'm very curious to know what that will look like.

I think that there's those are ambitious plans.

the folks I reached out to them to talk for the piece and they, I think are still kind of molding it.

They're going to launch at the top of 2026.

So I think they'll have a lot more to say then.

but I'm very interested to know what that looks like.

And I think the difference in that kind of a space versus AltBar just in particular, I know that AltBar does trivia nights, and you said I think you'd had a couple music performances, like acoustic kind of situations.

And I know there's other performances there too, but this, this we're talking about like a full music venue.

So I'm going to be interested to know the way that that fills, you know, sort of under the same umbrella as AltBar in terms of catering to a lot of similar people.

but also fills maybe a different kind of a need, which is you know, a live music space that does not have alcohol there.

>> Yeah.

are you have you been following that story, by the way, Bob.

>> I have, yeah, I haven't, I haven't spoken with the folks that run it.

but I'm excited for it.

I think, you know, again, like, we're not we're a craft cocktail bar, nonalcoholic craft cocktail bar, and kind of a carefully curated retail bottle shop.

We can't be all things to all people.

And so having a music venue, that's all nonalcoholic, that's exciting for us.

You know, that's why I say like half a dozen, maybe even more totally sober spaces in Rochester, because you've got dive bars, you've got cocktail bars, you've got wine bars, you've got all these alcoholic versions.

Why can't if the movement keeps growing and the demand keeps growing, why can't you envision a future where there's Na versions of those.?

>> I'm thinking about some of what Shelley Elkovich said, both in Patrick's piece and on this program earlier this hour, which is that she really doesn't think this is a fad.

She thinks that there is more sustainable growth in the same way that Bob talked about.

I mean, I don't think they would have moved from Portland here and given this a shot if they didn't think there was an opening in the marketplace.

And that's where I do think the generational shift will matter more, because Gen Z won't be the youngest generation forever.

Alpha's coming for them.

And then there will be another and another, and it will be interesting to see what happens when Gen Z's are 40, you know, and what they want to do with their social scene because they clearly are drinking less.

That is true.

There's more people in Gen Z who are not drinking at all than any other generation.

That includes adults.

And I think Shelley's point was a fair one when she said she doesn't think it's sort of just a pose.

She thinks that this is a generation that has the kinds of values that are pretty clearly delineated.

They want to know where a product comes from.

They want to know, you know, what is behind a company.

They want to know what the company's values are, and they will challenge on that.

So how durable that is will be an interesting question.

I'm not saying it's a fad at all.

I'm saying it might be very durable and that might that might become the permanent shift away.

I think time will tell.

But what do you see generationally?

How do you think about the stratification there?

Is your clientele pretty young?

>> It tends not to be.

Actually, for us, that's interesting.

And so we're kind of a niche within a niche.

So we're not alcoholic, which is a niche in and of itself.

But then we do craft cocktails, which tends to cater to more of your older millennials.

Gen X crowd.

And so if you look at just our clientele.

You know, it skews to to the older side of things.

That's why I think there's room in Rochester for a bar or nonalcoholic bar that caters directly to to Gen Z, you know, like, you know, more like like a neighborhood bar, you know, more like, you know, not craft cocktails with all, you know, hand pressed juices like we do and handmade sirups or homemade sirups.

But you know, something where you can just get, like a nonalcoholic rum and coke and have some louder music and, you know, I don't know, I'm 40.

I don't know what the young people do these days, but, you know, you know, catered more to to that type of a crowd.

>> Well, let me get another comment from a listener and a viewer on YouTube who says AltBar is a super great space for mixed crowds.

I stopped drinking four years ago and I go to AltBar with friends who do drink for sure.

So mixed crowds as in some friends in the crowd who drink, some who do not again.

You said that is common, right, Bob?

>> Very common.

Yeah.

We you know, like I said, nationwide, 80, 90 plus percent of people are buying.

Nah, still drink.

And we see a lot of them at AltBar in that common exactly where it's just people who are with somebody who doesn't drink.

So maybe one person in the group is a nondrinker and 3 or 4 are his or her friends, or their friends are coming along to to engage in community and to have fun.

>> Jeff and Hilton says, Evan, I'm a runner and I wear a Garmin fitness watch 24/7.

If it can tell if I drink alcohol and it shows the increased stress on my heart.

One one one quarter of a glass of wine will show up on the watch, and I can monitor the progress of my body processing the alcohol.

It takes about 90 minutes for it to clear my system.

Seeing the added heart stress was enough proof for me to stop drinking alcohol entirely.

That's Jeff and Hilton, so everybody's got different reasons, but that's that's a really interesting story.

And I wonder how much more out there is like that.

So Gen Z maybe less about health, more about values.

The kind of experience they want.

maybe people like Jeff are very serious about their health.

>> So don't you think economics plays a big part in that too?

That's probably a separate hour, but.

But I've.

>> Had that.

In what way?

>> In that if if there is a generation that maybe by and large doesn't have the same kind of purchasing power because they don't have as much disposable income, that may also influence behaviors?

>> Well, yeah.

>> Yeah, for sure.

And I just got an email from Marco wants to know what the average cost of a of a of an nah cocktail is.

And if it is less than what you have to pay for an alcoholic cocktail.

>> Yeah, that's one we get often.

And it's something that we talk to others.

>> Is that an insulting question?

>> Not insulting at all.

No.

I'm smirking because it's such an important question, and I'm glad I have a chance to address it.

You know, at AltBar, they cost the same as alcoholic cocktails.

And it's not because it's a money grab.

It's because the ingredients cost the same.

So, you know, we're talking about like this nonalcoholic whiskey being made in small batches out of San Diego.

You know, we're not using a, well, whiskey.

We're not using like a bottom shelf whatever, because it doesn't exist yet.

And so as the nonalcoholic movement grows, maybe there will be kind of cheaper nonalcoholic spirits that we could use to lower the prices.

But right now we're using top shelf stuff, and everything we do.

That being said, if a restaurant is charging you the same as a cocktail price for juices and water and sodas, then that's different.

But like but, you know, as far as we're concerned, if it's a carefully crafted nonalcoholic cocktail that takes the same amount of work, same amount of R&D, same amount of effort and energy and the same poor costs, you know, the same amount of money that goes into the ingredients.

You have to charge the same.

>> And what's the average cost of a drink on your list?

>> Right now it's between 12 and $14 for for the ones that have nonalcoholic spirits in it.

>> Pretty standard for what you find in in bars now.

And I'm thinking of the economics question.

I've got the comedian Scott Cease in my head, who might have a lot to say about like, what can we we can afford for a drink these days.

But as we get ready to wrap here AltBar.

What is it?

Is today Monday?

Today is Monday.

when are you open, Bob?

>> We're open Wednesday through Saturday.

Wednesdays and Thursdays, 3 to 9.

Fridays and Saturdays, noon to ten.

>> Don't go tonight.

Then you probably get arrested because there's nobody there.

And you probably have to break in.

But if you go during business hours, your most popular drink right now is what.

>> Bob?

>> probably in my flannel era.

it's a riff on a mule.

It uses a couple of different nonalcoholic spirits in it, and then some ginger beer and lime juice.

that's that's a really popular one in the fall and the other real popular in the fall is called Changing Leaves.

It's kind of like a whiskey amaretto sour.

>> Oh.

>> I made an actual amaretto sour at home last week.

I might have to try yours.

>> It's pretty darn good.

It's one of the longest one of the longest recipes we've had on the menu.

>> I want to thank you for taking the time, Bob.

And I certainly wish you luck.

And, you know, not rooting for any individual business.

I'd love to see this sector hang in there and grow.

And it sounds like there's a lot of room for growth.

So we'll be in touch.

Good luck to you.

Thank you very much.

>> Thank you so much for having me.

>> Bob is the co-owner of AltBar in Rochester and Patrick Hosken.

This was a lot of fun.

>> It was.

>> Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Great stuff.

The piece is called In Good Spirits.

It's in the current edition of City Magazine covering food and beverage for November.

So pick up your city wherever you can find them from all of us at Connections.

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