>>> FINDING AND AFFORDING A PLACE TO LIVE IN CENTRAL OHIO.

!

!musiC@!!!musiC@!

THIS IS A SPECIAL EDITION "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

A COUPLE OF TIMES A YEAR WE TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK MORE IN DEPTH AT AN ISSUE.

OUR TOPIC TONIGHT AFFECTS EVERYONE OF US THAT HAS A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD AND THOSE WHO LACK A ROOF.

THAT IS HOUSING.

WHETHER YOU LIVE IN A SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE, A CONDO OR AN APARTMENT.

WHETHER YOU LIVE DOWNTOWN OR IN THE SUBURBS OR OUT IN THE COUNTRY, THE HOUSING MARKET IS CHANGING.

HOME BUYERS OFTEN FIND THEMSELVES IN BIDDING WARS, PAYING SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN LIST PRICE.

RENTS ARE RISING AS APARTMENT BUILDINGS SPROUT ALL OVER THE AREA.

HERE IN CENTRAL OHIO, SALE PRICES ARE UP ABOUT 15% OVER LAST YEAR.

RENTS ARE UP ABOUT 8%.

NEEDLESS TO SAY, MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOT SEEN PAY RAISES OF 15% OR 8%.

SO FOR ALL THE GROWTH WE'VE SEEN, MANY OF OUR NEIGHBORS FIND IT HARD TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE OR RENT.

EXPERTS PREDICT THAT CENTRAL OHIO'S POPULATION WILL HIT 3 MILLION IN 25 YEARS.

DURING THIS PROGRAM, WE'LL LOOK AT WHERE ALL THOSE EXTRA PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE AND HOW WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO PAY THOSE HOUSING COSTS.

JOINING US IS STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE COLUMBUS URBAN LEAGUE.

STEPHANIE MOULTON, HOUSING AND CONSUMER FINANCE PROFESSOR AT OSU'S GLENN COLLEGE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.

AND ROBERT VOGT, A REAL ESTATE ANALYST AT VOGT STRATEGIC INSIGHTS.

WELCOME TO ALL.

ROB, WE'LL START WITH YOU.

GIVE US A SORT OF SNAPSHOT PICTURE OF WHERE THE HOUSING MARKET IS RIGHT NOW.

I GUESS WE CAN START WITH SINGLE FAMILY HOMES.

WHAT'S THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW IN CENTRAL OHIO?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK, MIKE, PROBABLY THE EASIEST WAY TO DESCRIBE IT IS A SUPPLY AND DEMAND ISSUE RIGHT NOW, THAT WE'VE GOT A GREATER DEMAND THAN WE HAVE SUPPLY FOR, NOT ONLY RENTAL HOUSING, BUT ALSO FOR SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING AS WELL.

AND THAT'S FRANKLY THE EASIEST WAY TO DESCRIBE THE OVERALL SITUATION IN CENTRAL OHIO AND FRANKLY ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY IS THAT WE SIMPLY DON'T HAVE THE SUPPLY TO MEET THE DEMAND.

AND IT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN A CHALLENGE, I THINK, FOR ANYONE WHO'S BEEN OUT LOOKING FOR HOUSING, THAT IT'S NOT READILY AVAILABLE.

IT'S NOT AVAILABLE AT THE PRICE ONE WOULD LIKE TO PAY.

IT'S NOT IN THE LOCATION THAT ONE WANTS TO LIVE.

IT'S NOT CLOSE TO YOUR EMPLOYMENT.

SO WE'VE GOT A TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF CHALLENGES TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO MEET THE DEMAND OF HOUSING THAT WE SIMPLY AREN'T MEETING RIGHT NOW.

>> WHY IS THE SUPPLY SO SHORT?

I MEAN, WHEN I MOVED TO COLUMBUS 20 YEARS AGO, THERE WERE HOUSES GOING UP EVERYWHERE.

WE DON'T SEE THAT AS MUCH ANYMORE.

IS THAT THE REASON?

THERE'S JUST NOT AS MUCH BUILDING GOING ON?

>> IN A SIMPLE ANSWER, YEAH.

THAT'S VERY TRUE.

I THINK THE CHALLENGE THAT WE'VE GOT IS THAT -- ALL THE OTHER PROBLEMS THAT WE HAD WHEN WE COULDN'T EVEN GET TOILET PAPER.

THAT WE HAVE A SUPPLY -- A BUILDING SUPPLY ISSUE THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH BUILDING SUPPLIES TO BUILD THE HOUSES THAT WE'D LIKE TO BUILD.

BUT IT GOES BEYOND JUST BEING ABLE TO BUILD A HOUSE.

I MEAN, WE HAVE THE WHOLE REGULATORY ISSUE AFFECTING HOUSING WHERE IT COSTS A LOT OF MONEY TO GET LAND REZONED, TO GET THE UTILITIES PLACED TO IT.

AND THEN WE'VE GOT THE WHOLE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE SIMPLY RUNNING OUT OF LAND.

AND THAT GETS TO YOUR ISSUE ABOUT WHERE WILL PEOPLE BE LIVING BY 2050 WITH THE NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT WE HAVE MOVING TO CENTRAL OHIO.

SO I THINK IT'S ALSO A LAND ISSUE THAT WE DON'T HAVE DEVELOPABLE SITES WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE.

SO EVEN THOUGH IT'S A COMPLICATED ISSUE IN TERMS OF ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE SHORTAGE OF HOUSING, WHEN YOU START TO LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUAL CASES OF WHAT'S GOING ON, IT'S FAIRLY EASY TO EXPLAIN.

IT REALLY IS A SUPPLY AND DEMAND ISSUE.

>> STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER, WHAT IS THE SITUATION AMONG THE FOLKS YOU SERVE AT THE COLUMBUS URBAN LEAGUE?

WHAT ARE THEY DEALING WITH AS FAR AS FINDING HOUSING AND PAYING FOR HOUSING?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE CONVERSATION TODAY.

AND SO, ROB, WHAT I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS TWO DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHICS HERE.

THERE ARE -- THERE'S NOT ENOUGH AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THIS COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW.

AND SO FOR BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE, THOSE WHO ARE MARGINALIZED, FOLKS THAT ARE LIVING IN GENERATIONAL POVERTY, THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING NEEDS ARE GREAT.

YOU ALSO LOOK AT THE DISPARITIES THAT HAVE BEEN ILLUMINATED BY COVID THAT WERE ALREADY IN PLACE WITH THE REDLINING OF NEIGHBORHOODS.

POLICIES THAT DON'T ALLOW BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE TO LIVE OUTSIDE OF CERTAIN AREAS STILL EXIST AND WE NEED TO LOOK AT THOSE POLICIES.

HERE AT THE COLUMBUS URBAN LEAGUE, WE HAVE RIGHT NOW -- WE ARE A PART OF THE DISSEMINATION OF DOLLARS FOR HOUSING.

WE HAVE 1,200 APPLICATIONS IN THE QUEUE RIGHT NOW THAT ARE WAITING TO BE PROCESSED.

WE RECEIVED, JUST IN THE MONTH OF OCTOBER, SINCE THE 11th -- WE HAVE HAD OVER 850 CALLS FOR HOUSING SUBSIDIES BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE EITHER BEING EVICTED OR THEY HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF BEING EVICTED.

AND THEY CANNOT PAY THEIR RENT OR THEY CANNOT PAY THEIR MORTGAGES.

AND SO I THINK THERE'S TWO -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS A TALE OF TWO CITIES WHERE WE HAVE INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN AFFORD BUT CAN'T FIND HOUSING STOCK.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN'T -- THERE IS NO AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR THEM.

AND THEN WITH COVID EXACERBATING THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE FACING THE POTENTIAL OF LOSING THEIR HOMES OR FACING EVICTION.

>> STEPHANIE MOULTON FROM OSU'S GLENN COLLEGE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS, COVID HAS TO HAVE JUST EXACERBATED THIS.

STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER MENTIONED THAT -- THAT COVID HAS JUST, YOU KNOW, FURTHER PUT PRESSURE ON FOLKS TO PAY THEIR RENT AND PAY THEIR MORTGAGES.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, I THINK ONE THING THAT YOU MAY NOT REALIZE -- ABOUT 15% OF HOMEOWNERS WITH A MORTGAGE WENT INTO A FORBEARANCE AT SOME POINT DURING COVID.

SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT, TO STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER'S POINT, WE REALLY HAVE TWO MARKETS HERE.

WE HAVE A MARKET OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OWNING THEIR HOME AND ARE THRIVING.

AND THEN WE HAVE A MARKET OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED INCOME LOSES AND SHOCKS.

AND THEY'RE STRUGGLING.

AND SO FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS, A LOT OF THOSE HAVE ROLLED OFF OF FORBEARANCE NOW.

SO FORBEARANCE IS A PROGRAM THAT THANKFULLY CAME AROUND TO PREVENT WIDESPREAD DEFAULTS LIKE WHAT WE SAW DURING THE GREAT RECESSION.

SO BASICALLY, IF SOMEBODY WAS STRUGGLING TO MAKE THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENT OR SIMPLY HAD A LOSS OF INCOME, MOST MORTGAGE COMPANIES WOULD ALLOW THAT INDIVIDUAL TO RECEIVE A KIND OF TEMPORARY MORATORIUM ON THAT MORTGAGE PAYMENT.

AND MANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, ABOUT 79%, ARE REPAYING THEIR MORTGAGES NOW.

BUT THERE'S 20% THAT AREN'T.

AND THAT'S THE GROUP THAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT TOO.

SO I'M WORRIED ABOUT THOSE INDIVIDUALS.

MOST OF THEM ARE LOWER INCOME.

THEY HAVE FHA LOANS.

THEY ARE IN BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY ARE STILL STRUGGLING TO PAY THAT MORTGAGE PAYMENT, SO THEY'RE STILL IN A FORBEARANCE.

AND SO THE END OF 2021 IS WHEN MOST OF THOSE FORBEARANCES ARE GOING TO EXPIRE, AND I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE ABILITY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS TO CONTINUE TO AFFORD THE HOUSING THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

AND WE'RE ALSO SEEING THE SAME EVICTIONS, LIKE STEPHANIE MENTIONED.

EVICTIONS WERE DOWN.

THERE WAS AN EVICTION MORATORIUM DURING COVID.

BUT EVICTIONS ARE STARTING TO PEAK BACK UP IN CENTRAL OHIO TO THE RATES THAT THEY WERE AT PRE-COVID.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, WERE AGAIN, AS THE SITUATION AS WE MOVE INTO THE BEGINNING OF 2022, THIS IS SOMETHING WE'VE GOT TO KEEP OUR EYES ON.

>> SO AS WE CONTINUE INTO THE DISCUSSION, WE'LL TRY TO GET TO SOME OF THE POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS FOR THIS.

BUT STEPHANIE, AS WE CONTINUE TO SET THE SCENE, WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AS FAR AS EVICTIONS AND THE END OF THE EVICTION MORATORIUM WHICH HAPPENED IN SEPTEMBER OF THIS YEAR?

>> YOU KNOW, THE LOSS OF AFFORDABILITY IN FRANKLIN COUNTY IS JUST HUGE.

YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW THERE'S ONLY 4,280 FEWER RENTALS FOR UNDER $500 A MONTH.

AND SO TO ROB'S POINT, THE SUPPLY AND DEMAND IS JUST NOT THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE A HOUSING WAGE, YOU KNOW, AS ONLY ABOUT $19.83 AN HOUR, THERE'S NO WAY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD THE CURRENT HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES THAT EXIST FOR BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, MINIMUM WAGE ISSUES ARE A BIG FACTOR.

THOSE PEOPLE NEEDING TO MOVE UP THE MINIMUM WAGE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY PAY THEIR RENT.

THERE HAS TO BE, I THINK, A LOT OF POLICY CHANGES THAT WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT.

AND I'M SURE STEPHANIE MOULTON CAN REALLY TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT THOSE POLICY ISSUES THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE EVICTION PROCESS IN PARTICULAR.

ONCE AN INDIVIDUAL OR A FAMILY -- ONCE THEY GET TO THE COURT SYSTEM, THEN THE JUDGE DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO REVERSE THE EVICTION.

AND SO IT AUTOMATICALLY GOES THROUGH.

AND SO WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE DOCKET FOR EVICTIONS, THEN WHERE DO THOSE PEOPLE GO?

AND THEY'RE PROBABLY EITHER GOING TO BE GOING TO THE HOMELESS SHELTER, OR THEY'RE GOING TO START COUCH SURFING OR GOING TO LIVE WITH RELATIVES.

AND SO WE DON'T HAVE MECHANISM RIGHT NOW TO REALLY TRACK WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE GOING AFTER EVICTION.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY AN IMPORTANT DATA POINT THAT WE NEED TO REALLY START LOOKING AT IN COLUMBUS AND FRANKLIN COUNTY.

WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE GOING AFTER THEY ARE EVICTED?

>> GETTING INTO THE SUPPLY OF DRIVE AROUND CENTRAL OHIO AND YOU SEE APARTMENT BUILDINGS SPRINGING UP ALMOST EVERYWHERE.

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE?

IS THERE THAT MUCH DEMAND FOR RENTAL UNITS THESE DAYS?

>> THERE IS A DEMAND FOR THAT, MIKE.

AND DEVELOPERS HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS OF FOLKS WE HAVE MOVING TO CENTRAL OHIO FOR THE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES.

A LOT OF ONE-PERSON AND TWO-PERSON HOUSEHOLDS, THEY HAVE SEEN THE STRENGTH FOR THE DOWNTOWN HOUSING MARKETS UP UNTIL COVID WHICH CREATED A WHOLE SORT OF DIFFERENT SET OF PROBLEMS.

BUT WE HAVE SEEN A TREMENDOUS DEMAND FOR MULTIFAMILY RENTAL HOUSING IN CENTRAL OHIO.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT'S NOT BEING DEVELOPED AT THE LOWEST END WHERE WE HAVE THE GREATEST NEED.

NOW, IN THEORY, SUPPOSEDLY WE CREATE ENOUGH NEW HOUSING UNITS AT HIGHER PRICES THAT PEOPLE KIND OF MOVE UP AND PAY THOSE HIGHER RENTS.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING, IS THE FACT THAT WE'RE NOT HAVING HIGH ENOUGH WAGES TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO AFFORD THOSE.

SO AGAIN, IF I GET BACK TO MY EARLIER COMMENTS ABOUT SUPPLY AND DEMAND, WE HAVE DEMAND AT ALL LEVELS OF HOUSING RIGHT NOW.

FROM THE GREATEST, OBVIOUSLY, THE VERY LOW.

BUT AT THE VERY HIGH END -- THE HIGH END APARTMENTS THAT WE SEE GOING UP.

WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE OCCUPYING THOSE, AND THAT'S GREATER INCENTIVES FOR DEVELOPERS TO CONTINUE TO TARGET THAT MARKET AND BUILD MORE APARTMENTS.

SO WE'VE NOT SEEN A SLOWDOWN IN THE DEMAND FOR RENTAL HOUSING, AND IT'S EXASPERATING THE PROBLEM THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE RENTAL HOUSING SPECTRUM.

AND BECAUSE OF SUCH TREMENDOUS HOUSING DEMAND, SOME OF THE LANDLORDS THAT STEPHANIE WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, THERE'S NO INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO NOT KEEP RENTERS BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT THREE PEOPLE LINED BEHIND THEM THAT NEED THAT HOUSING.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, I THINK, THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE WE HAVE IN TERMS OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO TO GET HOUSING FOR THESE LOWEST INCOME HOUSES.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO INCENTIVE FOR A LANDLORD REALLY TO KEEP SOMEBODY WHO'S NOT PAYING THEIR RENT.

BUT WE ARE SEEING DEMAND ACROSS ALL SPECTRUM OF RENTAL HOUSING.

AND THAT'S REALLY NOT AN ISSUE.

AND IT'S NOT CREATING THE KIND OF VACANCIES THAT WE'D LIKE TO SEE, AT LEAST AT THE LOWER END.

>> STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER, WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU SEE THESE APARTMENT BUILDINGS GOING UP, I MEAN, IN VARYING STAGES OF SORT OF LUXURY APARTMENT BUILDINGS AND THE INCOME LEVELS?

WE DON'T SEE AS MANY IN THE LOWER INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE CITY.

AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ENCOURAGE DEVELOPERS?

IN YOUR MIND, WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ENCOURAGE DEVELOPERS TO BUILD IN THE LOWER INCOME AREAS AND TO MAKE THOSE APARTMENTS AFFORDABLE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE HAS TO BE TAX INCENTIVES FOR THOSE DEVELOPERS.

YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS IS A NOT A HANDOUT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE BUSINESS PEOPLE, AND THERE'S AN EXPECTATION THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THEIR RESOURCES IN THERE, THEN THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY.

AND I GET IT.

AND SO HOW DO WE BEGIN TO LOOK AT -- AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE TO DEPEND ON GOVERNMENT.

TO START LOOKING AT HOW DO WE INCENTIVIZE THESE DEVELOPERS SO THAT THEY WILL FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH DEVELOPING THOSE KINDS OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS IN THE POOR CITY.

OTHER THAN CMHA UNDER CHARLES HILLMAN, YOU KNOW, NO ONE ELSE IS ACTUALLY BUILDING THOSE KIND OF SUBSIDIZED UNITS.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE OTHER THING WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, PLACES LIKE PORTLAND, OREGON, WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT HAVE A BUILDING WHERE HALF OF THE BUILDING MIGHT BE SUBSIDIZED UNITS AND OTHERS MIGHT JUST BE, YOU KNOW, FOLKS THAT WHO CAN AFFORD UNITS.

I THINK WE HAVE TO START LOOKING AT THOSE KIND OF INNOVATIVE IDEAS WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT THAT DOWNTOWN HOUSING -- TO BE ABLE TO SAY, "OKAY, YOU'RE GOING TO PUT THIS UP OVER HERE.

CAN YOU PUT SOMETHING ELSE UP OVER THERE OR, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE STREET OR ON ANOTHER SIDE?"

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT HOUSING CONTINUES TO SKYROCKET.

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE PASS BY IT EVERY DAY.

WE SEE ALL THE CONSTRUCTION GOING ON.

BUT WE KNOW THAT MOST OF THOSE HOUSING UNITS ARE NOT -- ARE NOT FOR -- FOR, YOU KNOW, ARE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I HAVE A 30-YEAR-OLD WHO I'M GETTING READY TO KICK OUT OF THE CARRIAGE HOUSE PRETTY SOON.

RIGHT?

AND HE'S ALREADY COMPLAINING ABOUT, "MOM, I CAN'T AFFORD."

HE'S MAKING DECENT MONEY.

BUT EVEN, YOU KNOW, HE'S LOOKING FOR -- "OKAY, MAYBE I NEED TO FIND A ROOMMATE."

SO EVEN OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, YOU SEE MORE AND MORE OF OUR YOUNG PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE MOVING BACK HOME WITH THEIR PARENTS TRYING TO SAVE MONEY.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN MY SON'S INSTANCE, IT'S MORE AFFORDABLE FOR HIM TO GO BUY A HOME AT THIS POINT THAN TO PAY THOSE SKYROCKETING RATES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THINGS THAT WE TALK ABOUT HERE AT THE URBAN LEAGUE IS, WHEN WE DO HAVE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THE TABLE THROUGH OUR HOME BUYER EDUCATION CLASS OR IF THEY'RE HERE TO GO THROUGH OUR WEALTH BUILDING OPTION OR PROGRAMMING, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE TALKING TO THEM IS ABOUT HOME OWNERSHIP.

THAT'S WHAT THEY NEED TO BE LOOKING AT AT THIS POINT.

BECAUSE BY THE TIME YOU'RE PAYING $2,500, $3,000 A MONTH FOR RENT, YOU COULD HAVE GONE AND GOTTEN A LOWER RATE, YOU KNOW, INTEREST RATE FOR A HOME THAN TO BE PAYING THOSE KINDS OF PRICES.

>> YEAH, WE'LL GET TO THAT TRANSITION IN JUST A MOMENT.

ROB, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU -- ROB VOGT, FIRST ON THE WHOLE DEVELOPERS, ENCOURAGING DEVELOPERS, INCENTIVIZING DEVELOPERS TO BUILD LOWER INCOME APARTMENTS, LOWER RENT APARTMENTS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER'S SAYING THERE?

ARE DEVELOPERS OUT THERE WILLING TO DO THAT, TO INVEST IN APARTMENTS?

CAN THEY INVEST IN THOSE APARTMENTS FINANCIALLY AND MAKE A GOAL OF IT?

WHAT'S THE SOLUTION?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

THERE IS NO GREAT INCENTIVES IN ORDER TO DO WHAT YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT, MIKE.

I MEAN, WE WILL PROBABLY TALK ABOUT THE LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT PROGRAM PROBABLY IS THE ONLY FEDERAL PROGRAM THAT'S OUT THERE THAT REALLY CREATES A TRUE INCENTIVE TO DEVELOP HOUSING FOR LOW AND MODERATE INCOME HOUSEHOLDS.

AND IT'S VASTLY UNDERFUNDED.

THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION TO EXPAND THE TAX CREDIT PROGRAM THAT WOULD INCREASE THE AMOUNT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

BUT BEYOND THAT, THERE REALLY AREN'T A LOT OF PROGRAMS OUT THERE.

THE CITY OF COLUMBUS RIGHT NOW OFFERS SOME TAX ABATEMENTS.

YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED WHEN WE CAME OUT OF THE GREAT RECESSION TEN YEARS AGO, NOBODY, INCLUDING MYSELF, HAD ANY IDEA THAT WE WOULD HAVE THIS KIND OF DEMAND FOR ALL TYPES OF HOUSING.

AND IF WE HAD PUT SOME PROGRAMS IN PLACE WHEN WE CAME OUT OF THAT RECESSION, WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO AT LEAST NIP A PART OF THE PROBLEM IN THE BUD.

BUT IT HASN'T REALLY HAPPENED.

SO THERE'S REALLY NOT -- UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S NOT A LOT OF EASY SOLUTIONS FOR -- TO CREATE AN INCENTIVE FOR A DEVELOPER TO BUILD LOW INCOME HOUSING.

IT JUST -- THERE JUST -- HE HAS TOO MANY COSTS -- THEY HAVE TOO MANY COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH IT IN ORDER TO BUILD THAT KIND OF HOUSING AND MAKE A PROFIT OUT OF IT.

>> STEPHANIE MOULTON, GET INTO THAT TRANSITION FROM RENTING TO OWNING.

OR MAYBE EVEN JUST AS STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER SAID, SKIPPING OVER THE RENTING THING.

THE PROBLEM IS, THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF STARTER HOMES BEING BUILT ANYMORE THAT I CAN SEE.

YOU SEE THE NEW DEVELOPMENTS.

THEY'RE ALL $500,000, $600,000 HOMES.

YOU DON'T SEE THE STARTER HOMES THAT YOU USED TO SEE BUILT IN HILLIARD, IN GROVE CITY OR ON THE EAST SIDE.

IS THAT WHAT'S GOING ON NOW?

THERE'S NOT ENOUGH STARTER HOMES TO GET FOLKS INTO HOME OWNERSHIP?

>> IT'S A MIX.

I MEAN, SO ACTUALLY I THINK, YOU KNOW, HISTORICALLY COLUMBUS AND CENTRAL OHIO, IT HAS BEEN MORE AFFORDABLE TO BUY THAN IT HAS BEEN TO RENT.

AND IN FACT, STILL IN, LIKE, LICKING COUNTY, IT'S ACTUALLY STILL MORE AFFORDABLE IN LICKING COUNTY JUST RIGHT NEXT TO FRANKLIN TO BUY A HOME THAN TO RENT.

IN FRANKLIN COUNTY, IT'S ABOUT EQUAL NOW.

BUT THERE ARE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE IT'S STILL IS, AS STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER MENTIONED, IT'S STILL MORE AFFORDABLE TO BUY THAN IT IS TO RENT.

THE CHALLENGE IS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WITH RENTAL HOUSING.

SO NEW CONSTRUCTION OF SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING IS GOING TO COST YOU $300,000 TO $400,000 TO HAVE A NEW CONSTRUCTION, NEW BUILD.

MOST FAMILIES CAN'T AFFORD $300,000 TO $400,000.

THE AVERAGE PURCHASE PRICE RIGHT NOW IS $260,000.

BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES THAT MAYBE NEED A HOME THAT'S $150,000.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THE -- THE ECONOMIC MODELS THAT THERE'S THIS FILTERING PROCESS WHERE AS SOMEBODY'S GONNA MOVE UP -- YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY OWN A HOUSE THAT'S WORTH $150,000.

THEY BUY THE $350,000 NEW HOME, AND NOW THAT $150,000 COMES ONTO THE MARKET.

THE CHALLENGE IS HOUSE VALUES ARE RISING ACROSS THE BOARD, AND WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT FILTERING HAPPEN AT A LEVEL THAT YOU MIGHT NEED TO HAVE IT HAPPEN IN ORDER TO REALLY PROVIDE FOR THE DEMAND THAT WE HAVE AMONG HOME BUYERS.

>> ROB, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON TAX ABATEMENTS?

THE CITY OF COLUMBUS, ALL COMMUNITIES HAVE DONE IT.

BUT THE CITY OF COLUMBUS WAS PRETTY AGGRESSIVE THERE FOR A WHILE OFFERING TAX ABATEMENTS TO GET HOUSING DOWNTOWN, GET HOUSING IN CERTAIN AREAS OF THE CITY.

THEY FACED CRITICISM FOR KEEPING THOSE TAX ABATEMENTS IN PLACE IN PLACES LIKE THE SHORT NORTH THAT REALLY DIDN'T NEED THEM ANYMORE.

HAVE THE TAX ABATEMENT SYSTEM THAT WE'VE EMPLOYED HERE IN THE CITY OF COLUMBUS -- HAS IT WORKED?

AND IS IT TIME TO TOTALLY REDO IT?

>> IT HAS WORKED.

I THINK IT'S WORKED VERY WELL TO STIMULATE HOUSING THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT IN THOSE LOCATIONS PREVIOUSLY, MIKE.

IT'S DONE A GOOD JOB.

I THINK THE CITY HAS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE ARE AREAS THAT IT ISN'T QUITE WORKING AS WELL, AND THEY ARE REFINING THAT PROCESS IN ORDER TO ENCOURAGE MORE HOUSING IN AREAS THAT TRULY NEED IT.

CERTAINLY THE PLIGHT -- THE SHORT NORTH IS A LOCATION THAT DOESN'T NEED ANY TAX INCENTIVES ANYMORE TO BUILD THE HOUSING, THAT THE PRIVATE MARKET HAS EMERGED TO THE POINT WHERE THAT HOUSING CAN BE SUPPORTED WITHOUT THE TAX ABATEMENTS.

I THINK INITIALLY IT DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB.

I THINK WE PROBABLY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY EARLY ON AFTER THE RECESSION THAT WE MIGHT HAVE APPROACHED THAT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.

BECAUSE I THINK THE MARKET WAS ALREADY THERE WITHOUT THE TAX INCENTIVES.

SO I THINK THE CITY RECOGNIZES THAT, AND I THINK THAT THEY ARE REFINING THE PROCESS TO HELP ENCOURAGE THE MULTIFAMILY HOUSING WITH TAX ABATEMENTS IN PLACES THAT REALLY OUGHT -- THAT REALLY DESERVE IT, THAT REALLY NEED IT.

>> STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER, I'M GUESSING YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THOSE TAX ABATEMENTS GO TO AREAS THAT REALLY DO NEED MORE HOUSING, MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND NOT TO THE DOWNTOWN AREA ANYMORE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WILL FIND, IF YOU GO INTO A LOT OF OUR URBAN NEIGHBORHOODS, THERE IS A LOT OF LAND THERE THAT IS READILY AVAILABLE FOR BUILDING.

THERE IS ALSO, AS WE SEE, AND I LIVE ON THE NEARER EAST SIDE, THERE'S A LOT OF REJUVENATION GOING ON AND A LOT OF THIS HOUSING BEING REFURBISHED.

BUT AGAIN, IT'S NOT LOW INCOME HOUSING.

AND SO IF YOU'RE GONNA HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO BE COMING OVER INTO THE URBAN NEIGHBORHOODS AND BUYING UP A LOT OF THESE PROPERTIES, THEN I THINK THERE SHOULD BE THOSE TAX INCENTIVES THAT WOULD THEN GIVE THOSE PEOPLE THE ABILITY TO BE ABLE THEN TO RENT TO LOW TO MODERATE INCOME PEOPLE.

>> ROB VOGT, WHAT'S THE SITUATION OUT IN THE EXURBS?

OR EVEN IN THE RURAL AREAS OF CENTRAL OHIO?

WHAT'S THE HOUSING SITUATION THERE?

ARE THE COSTS GOING UP AS QUICKLY THERE AS THEY ARE IN THE CITY?

IS THE SUPPLY ENOUGH OUT IN THOSE AREAS?

>> MIKE, IT IS THE SAME PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE SEEING WITHIN THE URBAN CORE.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE HERE IN CENTRAL OHIO IS THAT YOU LOOK INSIDE 270, THERE REALLY AREN'T A LOT OF DEVELOPABLE SITES THAT ARE -- OR GREENFIELD SITES AS WE CALL THEM -- THAT ARE READY TO GO.

WHETHER IT'S AFFORDABLE SINGLE-FAMILY HOUSING OR AFFORDABLE APARTMENTS, OR EVEN MARKET RATE FOR THAT MATTER, WE SIMPLY DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THOSE SITES LEFT ANYMORE.

AND SO WHEN YOU GO BEYOND 270, YOU START LOOKING AT PLACES LIKE DUBLIN AND POWELL AND WESTERVILLE AND NEW ALBANY AND GAHANNA.

THESE PLACES HAVE SOME REAL STRICT REGULATIONS AGAINST BUILDING GREATER DENSITY HOUSING.

AND SO THE NEXT STEP IS YOU HAVE TO GO EVEN FURTHER OUT IN ORDER TO FIND THE KIND OF LOCATIONS THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY PUT MORE AFFORDABLE, SINGLE-FAMILY HOUSING ON.

SO IT'S BECOMING MORE COMPLEX IN CENTRAL OHIO AS WE RUN OUT OF THESE DEVELOPABLE SITES WITHIN THE URBAN CORE AREAS AND THAT WE HAVE TO GO FURTHER AND FURTHER OUT.

>> THIS IS REVERSE REDLINING THAT'S GOING ON AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO CALL IT WHAT IT IS.

THERE'S A LOT OF THESE REGULATIONS THAT ARE BEING PUT INTO PLACE.

THIS IS BY DESIGN SO THAT YOU DO NOT GET A CERTAIN LEVEL OF -- A SOCIOECONOMIC LEVEL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN -- COMING OUT INTO THESE SUBURBAN NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS THAT, AS A COUNTY AND AS A REGION, WE NEED TO START HAVING THOSE UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS REVERSE REDLINING THAT'S GOING ON IN COLUMBUS AND FRANKLIN COUNTY AND OUR NEIGHBORING SUBURBAN COMMUNITIES.

>> STEPHANIE MOULTON, HOW WOULD -- YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS FOR CENTURIES, HONESTLY.

I MEAN, HOW DO YOU OVERCOME THIS?

HOW DO YOU ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO LIVE IN MIXED INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS?

I MEAN, WE SEE GENTRIFICATION WHERE FOLKS MOVE INTO LOWER INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS AND FIX UP THE HOUSES.

BUT THEN WHAT THAT DOES IS IT FORCES THE LOWER INCOME FOLKS OUT WHO CAN'T AFFORD THE TAXES OR THE UPKEEP ON THOSE RENTS OR THOSE HOUSES.

HOW DO WE -- IT REALLY TAKES ALMOST A SEA CHANGE OF OUR CULTURE RIGHT NOW.

IT SEEMS LIKE AN AWFUL BIG LIFT.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THIS KIND OF A CONVERSATION IS CRITICAL.

SO, I MEAN, I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

I THINK PART OF IT IS NIMBY-ISM, AS STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER MENTIONED.

I MEAN, I THINK IT'S THIS "NOT IN MY BACKYARD."

THERE'S A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF, YOU KNOW, MAYBE FOLKS ARE DOING GREAT RIGHT NOW.

THEIR HOUSE VALUES ARE GOING UP AND THEY'RE FEELING THIS IS AN AMAZING TIME.

AND IN MANY WAYS IT IS.

OUR HOUSING MARKET IS WONDERFUL HERE IN COLUMBUS FOR MANY PEOPLE.

BUT IF WE DON'T KIND OF PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE, THEN WE GET KIND OF LULLED INTO THIS FALSE SENSE THAT EVERYTHING'S FINE.

"WE DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT HOUSING HERE IN CENTRAL OHIO.

MY HOUSING'S GREAT."

SO HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS, I THINK, IS ESSENTIAL IN ORDER TO GET THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO SOMETHING.

SO A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO REQUIRE POLITICAL WILL.

AND POLITICAL WILL COMES ABOUT THROUGH PEOPLE.

IT COMES ABOUT THROUGH PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY A NEED FOR CHANGE.

>> ROB VOGT, HOW DOES A REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER SELL THAT TO POTENTIAL HOME BUYERS, APARTMENT RENTERS IN SOME OF THESE SUBURBS YOU MENTIONED?

DUBLIN, YOU KNOW, NEW ALBANY, UPPER ARLINGTON.

HOW DO THEY -- >> YOU KNOW, MIKE -- >> HOW DO THEY SELL THAT, THIS PLAN?

>> YOU KNOW, IN MY OPINION, I THINK THE ELECTED OFFICIALS GET IT.

I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE DIVERSITY IN THE COMMUNITIES AND OFFER A VARIETY OF HOUSING.

I MEAN, EVEN IF WE LOOK BEYOND THE BLACK AND BROWN ISSUES OF DISCRIMINATION IN SOME OF THESE SUBURBAN AREAS, THERE ARE FAMILIES IN THESE LOCATIONS THAT HAVE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD THE HOUSES THAT EXIST IN THESE AREAS.

SO THERE'S AN INCENTIVE TO CREATE HOUSING, NOT ONLY FOR ALL PEOPLE, BUT SPECIFICALLY THE FOLKS THAT LIVE IN THEIR BACKYARD.

AND I THINK -- AS I SAID, I THINK THE ELECTED OFFICIALS GETS IT.

THEY UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS.

BUT TRYING TO GET THE CONSTITUENTS, THE FOLKS WHO LIVE OUT IN THESE COMMUNITIES TO ACCEPT A MULTIFAMILY APARTMENT BUILDING NEXT TO THEM THAT MIGHT HAVE 20% AFFORDABLE UNITS -- "NOT IN MY BACKYARD."

AND I THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE THE REAL CHALLENGE WHEN WE COME TO HAVE REALISTIC DISCUSSIONS.

ELECTED OFFICIALS GET IT.

IT'S THE FOLKS THAT LIVE IN THESE COMMUNITIES WHO DON'T WANT THAT HOUSING IN THEIR COMMUNITY.

>> ALL RIGHT, AS THE YOUNGER FOLKS NOW ARE MORE AMENABLE TO THIS TYPE OF ARRANGEMENT WITH -- THEY WELCOME DIVERSITY, IT SEEMS, MORE THAN THE OLDER GENERATIONS DO.

COULD THIS HAPPEN AS THAT GENERATION, THE MILLENNIALS, THE FOLKS WHO FOLLOW THEM, MOVE INTO THE SORT OF UPPER INCOME RENTAL UNITS, SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, AND THAT COULD CHANGE IT JUST WITH TIME?

ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THERE?

>> I AM, VERY MUCH SO.

I THINK THEY ARE SEEKING OUT COMMUNITIES THAT OFFER GREATER DIVERSITY.

EVEN THOUGH IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE BEST ILLUSTRATION, BRIDGE PARK IS AN EXAMPLE OF CREATING HIGHER DENSITY HOUSING IN A SUBURBAN LOCATION.

AND THEY HAVE FOUND THAT THAT HAS WORKED VERY WELL.

NOW, THE BIG PROBLEM WITH THAT ONE IS THERE'S NO AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN BRIDGE PARK.

BUT THE POINT OF THE MATTER IS THAT I THINK MILLENNIALS, AND GEN Z IN PARTICULAR, IS A GROUP THAT IS LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING A VARIETY OF HOUSING, A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT USES WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY RATHER THAN THE TYPICAL, YOU KNOW, FOUR UNITS TO THE ACRE, SUBURBAN TRACT HOUSING THAT WAS SO PREVALENT DURING THE 1980s AND 1990s THAT WAS DEVELOPED.

>> THAT'S OUR SPECIAL "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

THIS IS PART OF OUR "DIALOGUE SERIES" WOSU DOES WITH OSU'S GLENN COLLEGE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.

WE WILL HAVE MORE "DIALOGUE" EVENTS COMING SOON.

FOR UPDATES ON THOSE, AND FOR OTHER NEWS, PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE, WOSU.ORG.

FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

!

!musiC@!!!musiC@!

!

!musiC@!!

!musiC@!