(gentle music) - [Narrator] Funding for "Roots, Race & Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Hey everyone, and welcome to "Roots, Race & Culture" where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Lonzo Liggins.

- And I'm Danor Gerald.

Believe it or not, this isn't the first time that Americans have been deeply politically divided.

From the 1700s to now, Americans have always been divided over political lines.

- However, within that division, there have always been politicians who, despite their differing political ideologies, get along privately and publicly sometimes.

This article in Business Insider talks about how Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill were good friends.

John Boehner and Barack Obama also got along.

Bill Clinton, and both George Bush Sr. and Jr. admired each other.

And right here in Utah, Senator Luz Escamilla and Senator John Johnson may not always agree about everything, but they're able to get along both publicly and privately.

Welcome, senators.

- Thank you.

- Thank you, nice to be here.

- Yes, thanks for joining us.

Let's start with you, Senator Escamilla, could you just briefly introduce yourself for us?

- Of course, thank you, and thank you for the invitation.

My name is Luz Escamilla and I'm the state senator for District 10.

I'm also the minority leader in the Utah State Senate, and this is my 17th session.

So I got elected in 2008.

I'm originally born and raised in Mexico, and so I'm a new American by choice and came here to the state of Utah to go to school, to the University of Utah.

I also have a, you know, beautiful family.

My husband and I have six children.

My husband was also an elected official, so public service certainly is part of who we are as a family.

And we just, you know, we wanna make this a better place for our communities, for our children.

- How about you, Senator Johnson?

Tell us about yourself.

So, I'm John Johnson.

I grew up in North Ogden, went to Weber State University, had a great experience there.

When I graduated, I actually went to Texas A&M to get a PhD in economics.

And when I finished that, I actually was a professor at SMU in Dallas.

- [Danor] Okay.

- And then moved to the University of Mississippi, where I spent about 15 years.

What town is University of Mississippi?

- Oxford.

Oxford, Mississippi.

I used to tell my friends that I taught in Oxford, so.

(hosts laugh) They gave me a bad time about that 'cause they knew I was in Mississippi, so.

- Well, you got some nice shoe game.

I like these Gators that you're wearing.

What are some other, give me a quick tip on what are the hobbies that you enjoy?

Is there any hobby that you like?

- Well, I like, I was, you know, early on, I was a computer programmer.

And I worked a lot in AI.

So my main research interest actually was genetic algorithms, neural networks.

And so I like just playing around with things online.

I love technology.

- Technology and shoes, got it.

- Yeah.

(laughs) - How long have you two known each other?

- About five years I think because this is my fifth season.

So I first met Senator Escamilla when I joined the Senate.

- [Danor] Hmm, nice.

- So I just got reelected, so this'll be my fifth session.

- So it's such a tough political climate right now.

Tell us on a national level, why do you feel like the country is so divided?

Can you start for us?

- Sure.

You know, I think it's growing pains, right?

I mean, we are a relatively young country, but we're also becoming more diverse.

And by that I mean diversity in many sense of the word, right?

Many cultural identities.

And I think people get to react to differences.

And unfortunately, to my personal point of view, there are some really negative perspectives related to changing demographics and to the needs of trying to be inclusive of all.

And I think that has contributed to more political divisiveness.

I think there's always differences on opinions, and I welcome those.

It's when it's permissible to hate or to be mean, that is when I think it's hurting our nation now.

- Yeah.

- I remember the thing that stood out to me most in elementary school when they were teaching about the Constitution was my teacher summed it up by saying, "The Constitution basically says you can do anything you want as long as you're not hurting anyone else in the process."

- [Senator Escamilla] Basic.

- That's very basic.

(Danor laughs) How about you, Senator Johnson?

What do you think?

Why do you think the country's so divided?

- Well, of course there's political differences, but we can have political differences and still have conversations.

And I think that's the important thing we have to remember.

We can have very, very strong political views, but still listen to other people.

And I think that's important.

Why are we divided?

I think we have very different opinions about things.

You know, people ask me a lot, they said, "Senator Johnson, why are you so focused on culture wars and stuff?"

And I said, "What I'd really like is for that to end."

I think that, especially in our public schools, I don't think these political ideologies belong in public schools.

I think we need to teach kids to read and write and do math, and be focused on, you know.

And, you know, focusing on kindness and other things are really important, but I don't think there's room for the political ideologies, and we have differences of opinion about what that means, right?

But I think in general, you know, that will help us actually tone down.

- Well, I'm gonna ask you both a quick question before we even delve into anything deeper.

How is it that the two of you get along so well?

- You know- - Well, I think she'd like to pull my hair out sometimes.

- Maybe, but it's like a little family, right?

I mean, and I'll say this, I think Utah is a pretty unique place.

I know we hear that all the time, and I don't wanna sound cheesy, but it is unique.

And I've seen it because my husband was a legislator in a different state where things were a little bit different.

There was more tension.

And that's something I've appreciated of Utah legislature as a member of the super-minority caucus, where we are outnumbered significantly that there is still a sense of decorum and respect.

And that's something that I give to the senator.

He's a gentleman, and I've said this, right?

We are in the opposite side of issues.

And we had a really difficult, last year was very difficult for the two of us on issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

And the outcome was not what I wanted.

But there's still, you know, his interactions, his ability to discuss and, you know, agree, to respectfully agree to disagree.

It's how you get along.

- So prioritizing the relationships over the politics at the end of the day keeps things simple.

- [Senator Escamilla] Absolutely.

- Well, and making sure that you have respect for people.

I mean, I can think of a case in point.

You know, Senator Escamilla was real big on, you know, helping disadvantaged kids, right?

And, you know, different Medicaid things that were going on.

And, you know, she actually got me to vote to give benefits to undocumented children, right?

And actually the way she pulled me along is she said, "Well, let's limit this to families that are working."

And that was kind of a way of us bridging a gap, you know?

And so I think there are ways, I mean, Senator Escamilla has a way about her though, that, you know, she tends to get some things done that I don't think she's ever gonna get done, but she does because she's willing to listen and she's willing to compromise.

And, you know, and I think that's important.

I think at the end of the day, we can, you know, we can see needs and we can make sure that, you know, that, you know, we take care of the least of those among us, right?

And I think that's something we share.

- Yeah, yeah, common understanding.

- Listening and compromising.

What a profound thing.

I mean, if only everyone on social media could actually do those things these days.

- Yeah, it seems harder than you would think.

So I have a interesting thought from an article in December 20, or December 5th, 2024, article published in the Deseret News said the top five most important issues that unite and divide Utah voters are, number one, housing affordability.

Number two, politicians listening to voter concerns.

Number three, dealing with inflation.

Four, government overreach.

And number five, partisan politics.

So do either of you feel that these issues are still relevant in 2025?

Let's start with you, sir.

- No, of course.

Housing's up at the top.

I think we might have differing views on that having been trained as an economist, especially a conservative classical liberal economist.

I think that, you know, I have real problems.

You know, you go back to Bastiat, and you think about the proper role of government.

You know, what is the government supposed to do and what aren't they supposed to do?

And there are consequences to anything the government does.

And so I think, you know, I look at a very minimalistic view of government and other people have a more expansive view of what the role of government is.

- [Danor] Yeah, okay.

- So, you know, in terms of those issues, I think they're pertinent now.

And they will continue to be for a minute.

I mean, housing has so many factors that are, you know, the market, newcomers, I mean, we are attracting a lot of new people.

It's a great state to live.

So it is driving cost.

So what is the role of government?

I think it's a valid question.

I believe there is a role of government, and the municipalities and the cities, I mean, we are working with them.

'Cause some of them may have a different way of seeing their growth, right?

I mean, talking about density, talking about gentrification.

I mean, how does that look like and how does that apply?

But if you look at all the issues that you mentioned, all of them are social determinants of health.

And when you think about social determinants of health impacting the outcome of children, and for me, that's been my priority in my 17 years in the legislature.

It's children 'cause they have no choice, right?

- So, with the same question, Senator Johnson, I ask you, how do you think the role of government should be removed to help improve those issues?

- Well, you know, myself, you know, I chair the Senate Education Committee.

I'm on education appropriations.

You know, from my perspective, I believe that education is a proper role of government.

And so it's easier for me in that environment to be able to have conversations, have compromise, look at what, you know, what the best path forward for our kids is.

- What about with the housing?

Like, 'cause that seems to be a big issue.

A lot of young people are worried about housing, they're worried about where they're gonna live.

If we remove government from that role, how does that work?

- I guess my first approach to that is to say, are there institutional barriers that are keeping contractors, let's say, from building new homes?

Are there zoning requirements that maybe make it harder, right?

You know, one of the things is the lot sizes right now.

We're running out of property on the Wasatch front.

You know, but I would look at those issues from an economic standpoint and say, you know, in order for something to endure long term, we've gotta set up the right incentive structures.

And you know, I think there are ways to deal with housing problems by getting the government out of the way rather than in the middle of it.

I mean, we're starting to see a lot more urban development, large condo projects.

And these things can help to drive down the cost, right?

But I guess what I would do is probably look for a market solution first.

That doesn't mean, you know, Senator Escamilla's approach is wrong.

You know, and we might have differences of agreement there.

- Maybe that's in certain places, right, certain places.

- Well, I know my own kids- - Well I mean, the senate president, for example, put in place a program that I love, and it's the first-time home buyer program, and, you know, helping a lot of these younger, you know, couples and families where they will give them the first $10,000 towards a down payment.

So, I mean, those are the little things where, to me, that makes sense for the government to incentivize, you know, first-time home buyers, which is super hard to get those down payments.

- Yeah, I love it.

- You know, economic development things can change too because, you know, how do we get industry to locate in smaller towns?

- Agree.

- Right?

Are there regulatory burdens there that we can release so that companies can actually move into a smaller town where there's more property, where people can actually afford to have a larger lot, maybe.

- So let's switch gears a little bit.

What advice would you give to other politicians, senators, local, national, on how to find middle ground with people who have differing opinions and different sides of the aisle?

- I mean,, you know, it took me a minute, but I've learned that you have to get to know people at a personal level.

And it can be hard.

I mean, if you're an introvert, you know, it's gonna take a minute.

And I've told people, even in the biggest disagreements, you get to see the humanity.

I have to never lose hope in humanity, right?

I had a mentor that was actually a professor at the University of Utah.

And he worked for the Reagan administration, an incredible Latino, he was in the army.

I mean, he just had this incredible just resume of work and he was a Republican.

And he, you know, I was very young, active, through the university doing advocacy work, which is how I ended up, you know, running for office.

And I remember one day, he said, "Luz, just remember, the moment you become cynical in politics, that's your cue to get out of it."

- You feel the same.

How do you feel, John?

- Well, I think I feel the same way that the idea of the shared humanity.

I mean, some of the issues we've been debating have been ones that have been very difficult.

And sometimes you kind of think, why did we even have to bring that up?

But once it's up, the issue's on the table, you have to kind of follow, you know, your philosophical foundation.

And I think that's important because if you're not following a passion that you have, you're not following your inner voice that drives you to do things, then you're cheating yourself, right, and- - Well, and can I add something?

'Cause I think you're correct.

There's also for, not for everyone, but for example, for me, faith plays a big pivotal role in how you do this.

And when I say don't lose hope in humanity, don't lose faith in humanity, but also, you know, your own faith of how you see the world and your role in this world of trying to change it for better.

In the Utah state legislature, by the way, about 85% of the time, we vote together everyone, I mean, the 104 members vote yes about 85% of the time.

- [Senator Johnson] Yeah.

- So, I mean, there is a lot of common ground, there is.

It's those more divisive issues, and those are hard.

Those are, you know, emotional issues.

Those are where we see those divisiveness.

- One quick question for both of you.

What are some misperceptions that people have about you?

Like, let's say, we'll start with you, Senator Johnson.

What are some misperceptions people have about you?

You're a white male Republican in the state of Utah.

Give me some misperceptions that people have about you.

- They probably don't think that your shoe game is as good as it is, first of all.

- Well, well, you know, the thing is, I mean, you get- - And he drives an Aston Martin.

- Yeah, well, well you get this thing.

I mean, when I was running for reelection, you know, one of the things my opponent sent out about me is they said, you know, "He's a wealthy guy that doesn't understand common people."

Now I thought it was kind of silly to send it to everyone in my neighborhood because I had all my friends calling me and say, "What?

What's wrong with being a millionaire?"

I mean, because all my neighbors happened to fit the same mold, right?

Probably wasn't the best thing to send out to them.

But, you know, that is a perception people have, that you don't understand.

You know, and I would say, you know, our differences have more to do with philosophical foundations that we have than they really have to do with where we grew up.

You know, when I was teaching at the University of Mississippi, my kids grew up in Mississippi.

When I went to Ole Miss, I stayed at the motel on campus and the halls were lined with rebel flags.

You couldn't see anything at a football game 'cause all there was is a sea of rebel flags.

And I saw that campus evolve into a more inclusive place, right, where more people felt comfortable.

And I saw the evolution of, you know.

- You got to have that experience yourself.

- Yeah, well, and what was interesting to me is, you know, my children going to school, I mean, it was half black, half white in every class.

Almost 50% exactly.

- That's pretty good.

- And you know, what happened with my kids was most of their friends were black.

And the reason for that was if they'd go home with their white friends and, you know, the mothers would find out my kids belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

And they were like, "Oh, you gotta stay away from that kid," right?

And so, you know, and that's another type of being segregated, right?

- Yeah, sure.

- But I think my kids had a wonderful childhood.

They were able to see things through different eyes.

And I think, you know, I mean that's, in a way, it builds resilience, right?

- [Danor] Sure, absolutely.

- And does that mean the world is fair?

Does that mean that was right?

No, it doesn't.

And you know, we saw a lot of that at, you know, we happened to go to Ole Miss at a time when, you know, they hadn't come around very far.

- So no one would expect that your kids related more to black people than white people growing up, that's for sure.

- Well, you know, I don't know if I can say that, but most of their friends- - That sounds like it.

When they're getting segregated.

- And, you know, I remember at Christmas, my kids had a wonderful time because a lot of their friends didn't have much.

And so they spent a lot of time at Christmas gathering up things and delivering to families around town, right, secretly.

- So what about you, Senator Escamilla?

What would be some misperceptions, you know, you're an immigrant, you're a Democrat.

What are misperceptions that people have about you?

- You know, I think to me is, for me, it's the concept of that we're all the same.

I mean, Representative Romero, which is a minority leader in the house and I laugh because they think we're the same person.

They call us, you know, we're interchangeably, apparently there's only two brown women in the entire state of Utah.

And, you know, and it's almost like a joke.

But you know what, we come from very different backgrounds.

So she always makes that point and I appreciate that.

We met at CESA when we were both college students.

So we go back many, many years.

And what's interesting is we could not have had more different, you know, the way we're brought up from religion to, you know, to, you know, our family structures.

But for most people, they will just classify us in the same box.

We do also share a lot of other things in common.

So what I think a lot of the misconception is, you know, usually I have people say, "Well, I assume that you're this, right, because you're a Latina, because you're an immigrant."

And I'm like, "Oh, interesting.

Well, no, let me show you."

You know, maybe we all started learning not to make assumptions, because when people make assumptions, usually, you know, that's probably not gonna go really well.

And the surprises come all the time, right?

I mean, hearing the story, and I've heard that good senator, I was actually sitting in, it was a Mexican event, and there was this gentleman next to me and he said, "Oh, I think you know my brother."

And I'm like, "Oh, sure, who's your brother?"

He's like, "Senator John Johnson."

Dead serious, this is like a Mexican event.

And I look at him, I'm like, "Oh," and he does look like John.

And I was like, "Oh, okay."

And his wife, she's from Mexico, right, your sister-in-law.

And he was super kind.

We were chatting, we take a selfie, we text it to him.

And I'm like, "Look who I'm having dinner with."

And you know, he was telling me stories of his brother.

He's very proud of his brother.

I'm like, of course.

You know, he did a successful career.

I mean, and he was like, "You know, my brother is a good man."

And I think it was during this whole DEI stuff, and I appreciated that perspective, right?

And I would not have guessed that I was sitting next to John Johnson's brother, but his wife is from Mexico, you know, and we were just sharing a very Mexican Latino event.

- And they're Democrats too.

- And they're Democrats too.

So, I mean, you know- - And he's proud of you too, right?

- Oh, he's like, "My brother is a good man.

And I'm proud of what he's, all of his accomplishments."

I'm like, "Good for you, sir, you should.

He's a great guy."

- It's where, we gotta wrap up here, but I want to give you guys 30 seconds each to get some final thoughts in.

30 seconds, John, give us your final thoughts.

- Well, all I can say is, who could not like Luz Escamilla?

I mean, Senator Escamilla.

There's, you know, I can understand the difficulty of being a member of the super-minority party, right?

But I think Senator Escamilla brings a special spirit with them in trying to get along and not take things personally.

And I don't think anybody, honestly, in the Senate really tries to make things personal.

Sometimes it seems that way, right?

But I think they're fairly careful at trying to not make things personal.

Sometimes we just disagree, right?

And you have to take it for what it is.

I've had bills of mine shot down, and I just thought, man, I worked so hard on that.

You know, I felt bad.

But, you know, you kind of realize that it takes time sometimes to project ideas that may be different than somebody else's.

- Maybe you're ahead of your times too.

Sometimes a bill is just five years too early before everybody else sees it.

- It seems like mine are always that way.

(hosts laugh) - That's the trend.

That's gonna be the spare from you.

He's like, "I'm five years ahead, guys."

I'm gonna start my presentations that way.

No, thank you for this opportunity.

And thank you for letting us have this exchange.

You know, we should have more of these conversations.

And I think this is what makes America great.

This, these conversations, this ability to say, you know, we may not agree on this one, but let me tell you what we agree, and also to be able to see the humanity in each one of us.

And we have, once a year, we have a dinner with only the senators, and you know, their partners, spouses.

And that's probably one of the best events of the session.

And everybody's tired, but we're there and it's just dinner and talking.

And you get to sit next to, you know, Senator Johnson or all the other colleagues and their family, I mean, their spouses.

And you get to learn about them in a different way.

And then that's important too.

So I just appreciate that we get to talk outside of the capitol and so thank you for that opportunity.

- Isn't that great?

You know, when you think about that.

See, here we are, you're both senators, and you guys all, and all the senators get along, you talk to each other, you're able to have agreements and disagreements, but yet you get along.

But yet here we are in society, disagreeing, people are cutting people off, not, you know, getting along at Thanksgiving dinners over politics, and yet the actual politicians are getting along.

- Yeah, that's amazing.

Well, and- - Interesting.

- Thank you both for showing us that light, that the middle ground is found in our common humanity.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- And that goes across the board and we appreciate you setting the example amongst yourselves, showing everyone that we can do this if we just listen to each other and believe in each other's common humanity, so.

- Thank you.

- From all of us at PBS Utah, thank you for joining the conversation.

As always, other episodes can be found on our website, pbsutah.org/roots, or on the PBS Utah YouTube channel.

- And if you had feedback or ideas for the episodes, be sure to give us a shout out on social media.

Until next time, for "Roots, Race & Culture" y'all, we are out.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] Funding for "Roots, Race & Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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