>> WHAT’S AT RISK IS THE LOSS OF A MORE COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.

>> COMES FROM A CREOLE BACKGROUND.

SOME WOULD EVEN SAY HAITIAN.

>> HI, HOWARD, HOW’S IT GOING?

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

LET’S DO IT.

PARIS: WHAT'S UP, Y'ALL?

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

HERE AT GBH NEWS' ROOTED WE SERVE UP BLACK INTELLECT, CULTURE, AND JOY.

THAT INCLUDES A SAMPLER OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD AROUND US, SO LET’S GET INTO IT.

FIRST UP, THE ACQUITTAL OF THREE FORMER MEMPHIS POLICE OFFICERS IN THE 2023 FATAL BEATING OF TYREE NICHOLS IS SPARKING OUTRAGE.

FIVE OFFICERS WERE CAUGHT ON CAMERA PUNCHING, KICKING AND HITTING NICHOLS AFTER HE RAN AWAY DURING A TRAFFIC STOP.

ALL THESE OFFICERS WILL FACE SENTENCING ON FEDERAL CHARGES LATER THIS YEAR.

BUT FOR SOME, THE OFFICERS BEING FOUND NOT GUILTY AT THE STATE LEVEL RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY.

THAT'S STILL TOP OF MIND FIVE YEARS AFTER THE COUNTRY'S RACIAL RECKONING, WHICH A RECENT PEW RESEARCH STUDY FINDS DID NOT IMPROVE BLACK AMERICANS' LIVES.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

THE STUDY SHOWS THAT IN SEPTEMBER OF 2020, MORE THAN HALF OF U.S.

ADULTS WERE OPTIMISTIC THAT THE FOCUS ON RACIAL INEQUALITY WOULD LEAD TO CHANGES THAT IMPROVE THE LIVES OF BLACK AMERICANS.

TODAY, 72% NOW SAY IT DID NOT.

WE'LL HAVE MORE ON WHERE WE ARE FIVE YEARS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER NEXT WEEK, SO STAY TUNED.

AND ONE THING ABOUT US, WE'LL ALWAYS FIND JOY THROUGH THE PAIN.

AND THAT JOY WAS OOZING AT THIS YEAR'S MET GALA, WHICH RAISED A RECORD-BREAKING $31 MILLION FOR THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART’S COSTUME INSTITUTE.

FROM JANELLE MONAE AND SHABOOZEY TO TEYANA TAYLOR AND SO MANY OTHERS, THE BLACK DANDYISM ASSIGNMENT WAS MORE THAN UNDERSTOOD.

AND DON'T WE ALL WISH WE COULD'VE BEEN IN THAT BATHROOM SELFIE?

I MEAN, I DO AT LEAST.

WELL AS SOME WERE DRESSING UP, PAUL PIERCE WAS DRESSING ALL THE WAY DOWN.

THE CELTICS LEGEND MADE GOOD ON A RECENT BET BY WALKING 20 MILES TO WORK IN A BATHROBE FOLLOWING THE CELTICS GAME 2 LOSS AGAINST THE NEW YORK KNICKS.

>> ALL RIGHT, I'M REALLY OUTSIDE LIKE THIS, DOG, I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS.

CELTICS GOT ME DOG, WHAT THE -- COME ON, MAN!

PARIS: THANK GOODNESS THE NBA PLAYOFFS HAPPEN IN THE SPRING, BECAUSE WE KNOW THE OUTSIDE IS A LITTLE MORE COMFORTABLE THEN.

AT GBH NEWS ROOTED, WE ARE ALWAYS TRYING NEW THINGS, AND WE WANT TO KNOW: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

IF YOU HAVE A STORY WE SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO, HIT US UP ON EMAIL, INSTAGRAM OR OUR YOUTUBE PAGE.

>> OUR EFFORTS NOW TO PRESERVE, TO COLLECT, AND TO PROTECT INFORMATION, ITEMS THAT WILL GO INTO THE FUTURE.

IF THAT HAPPENS, I THINK WE WILL HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING.

PARIS: DR. CARLA HAYDEN IS OUT AS THE LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS.

JUST DAYS BEFORE SHE WAS FIRED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, I CAUGHT UP WITH HER AND DR. NOELLE TRENT, THE HEAD OF BOSTON'S MUSEUM OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY.

DR. HAYDEN TOLD ME SHE WAS WORD ABOUT LOSING IMPORTANT PARTS OF U.S. HISTORY, ESPECIALLY THAT INVOLVING BLACK AMERICANS.

>> WHAT’S AT RISK IS THE LOSS OF A MORE COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TOILED, JIM NASH CONTRIBUTED TO IT AND HAVE LIVED IN IT AND STILL LIVE IN IT.

AND WHEN YOU DON’T HAVE A COMPLETE PICTURE OF HISTORY, IT ALMOST MAKES YOU BLIND TO CONTEXT, TO WHAT’S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

SO YOU REALLY NEED TO HAVE A COMPLETE PICTURE OF WHAT HAPPENED TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE HERE AND NOW, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE FUTURE.

PARIS: ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF PRESSURE FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GROWS, AND THE FUTURE OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IS IN JEOPARDY?

>> THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS SERVES CONGRESS AND THE PEOPLE CONGRESS SERVES, SO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERY AMERICAN, EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS REPRESENTS A COMMUNITY.

AND SO WE ARE REALLY TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT MEMBERS UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENS AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AFFECTS THE PEOPLE THAT THEY SERVE, AND WE ARE MAKING SURE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THAT WE SERVE THEM, BUT ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THEM IN THAT PLACE.

PARIS: NOW OF COURSE YOU HAD THE DISTINCT HONOR OF BEING THE FIRST BLACK PERSON TO LEAD THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.

AND THIS COMES -- YOU ALSO ARE SERVING AT A TIME WHERE FIVE MONTHS AFTER YOUR APPOINTMENT, THERE WAS A NEW LAW ENACTED BY A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY THAT THAT POSITION THAT ONCE WAS A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME APPOINTMENT NOW HAS TO BE RENEWED.

>> I AM SMILING BECAUSE I’M ALSO THE FIRST FEMALE IN THE POSITION SINCE 1802.

SO THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR, THE FIRST FEMALE IN A FEMINIZED PROFESSION TO LEAD THE LIBRARY.

BUT I’M SMILING BECAUSE I WAS PART OF A GROUP OF LIBRARIANS THAT WERE CONSULTED WHEN MY PREDECESSOR, DR. JAMES BILLINGTON, WHO WAS LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR 28 YEARS, BECAUSE IT WAS SIMILAR TO THE SUPREME COURT, A LIFETIME APPOINTMENT.

AND WE RECOMMENDED, THE LIBRARY COMMUNITY RECOMMENDED THAT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS POSITION, BECAUSE OF THE CHANGING NATURE OF LIBRARIES, SO MUCH IS GOING ON, THAT YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF A RENEWAL OF A TERM, THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A TERM, 10 YEARS, AND IT CAN BE RENEWED, BUT THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LIBRARIES MIGHT NOT BE THE TYPES OF INSTITUTIONS WHERE A LIFETIME APPOINTMENT IS APPROPRIATE.

AND THERE WERE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT, WELL, THE FIRST WOMAN AND THE FIRST LACK PERSON, AND NOW THE GOING TO PUT A TERM LIMIT ON IT.

BUT THAT’S ALSO INTERESTING TOO IN TERMS OF HOW DIFFERENT THINGS ARE BEING INTERPRETED THROUGH A DIFFERENT LENS.

SO WHAT MIGHT’VE BEEN ORDINARY NOW IS DEFINITELY LOOKED AT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

PARIS: GIVEN THAT IN SEPTEMBER 2026, THIS RENEWAL IS GOING TO COME UP -- >> I WOULD BE HONORED TOWARD -- I WOULD BE HONORED TO FINISH OUT MY TERM THAT I HAVE NOW AND REALLY INTERESTED TO SEE HOW IT WOULD TURN OUT.

PARIS: DR. TRENT, WE TALKED ABOUT THE ATTACK THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS MOUNTING, AND IN FACT RECENTLY, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS PUSHED AN EFFORT TO REMOVE AN EXHIBIT FROM THE NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY.

IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT WERE TO HAPPEN AT YOUR MUSEUM, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

>> THAT’S BEEN A DISCUSSION REALLY SINCE JANUARY ABOUT AS WE ARE DOING RISK ASSESSMENTS, WHAT ARE THE RISKS TO OUR OBJECTS?

ASCENSION, MUSEUMS ARE LIKE CEMETERIES.

THINGS GO IN, THEY DON’T COME OUT, RIGHT?

SO I THINK THERE’S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION AROUND WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE SMITHSONIAN, THINGS ARE RETURNED WHEN THEY ARE LOANED.

IF THE LOAN AGREEMENT IS UP AND I MAKE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT DECISIONS, AND THE LOAN IS RETURNED.

IF SOMETHING HAS BEEN FORMALLY ACCESSION, IS IN THE MUSEUM’S HOLDINGS, AND THERE IT WILL STAY.

NOW, THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT CAN THEY BE REMOVED?

IT’S ACTUALLY QUITE AN INVOLVED PROCESS.

WE JUST CAN’T GO IN AND TAKE THINGS OUT OF THE MUSEUM.

SHOULD SOMEONE WANT TO TRY TO DO THAT, WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT 501(C)(3), SO THOSE ITEMS IN OUR COLLECTION WHICH WE HOLD FOR THE PUBLIC TRUST TO MAKE ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC, THEY WOULD HAVE TO COME UP AGAINST THE MUSEUM AS AN ENTITY.

AND WE ARE FULLY PREPARED TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO ETHICALLY AND LEGALLY TO PROTECT THE COLLECTIONS.

PARIS: WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE OPTIONS THAT YOU HAVE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, MUSEUMS GENERALLY DON’T DISPLAY EVERYTHING THEY HAVE IN THEIR HOLDINGS.

MAYBE 1% OF WHAT WE HAVE IS ON DISPLAY.

WITH THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, MAYBE IT’S 1%-3%.

PARIS: SO THERE’S A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF -- >> IN THE STACKS.

THERE ARE TUNNELS BELOW, THERE IS STUFF EVERYWHERE.

PARIS: OH, MY GOODNESS.

WILL THAT EVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY?

>> PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY REQUEST TO SEE AN ITEM.

>> YES, AND THEN HAPPENS.

YOU CAN REQUEST TO SEE AN ITEM, BUT WE MAKE THE DETERMINATION AROUND HOW THOSE GO OUT.

WE HAVE LOANED HIM TO OTHER INSTITUTIONS.

SO LAST YEAR WHEN THEY MET HELD THEIR HARLEM RENAISSANCE TRANSATLANTIC MODERNISM EXHIBIT, WE HAD A SCULPTURE GO TO NEW YORK, AND IT IS NOW I THINK IN D.C. AT ONE OF THE MUSEUMS.

SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN ALL THE TIME, AND SCHOLARS CAN WRITE AND SAY I WOULD LOVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS ART PIECE OR THIS ARTIFACT.

ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THE WORK THAT WE DO.

NO ONE CAN COME IN AND JUST TAKE THINGS OUT.

THE REALITY IS, THE PEOPLE WHO CARE FOR THESE OBJECTS COME OF THE FOLKS WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IT IS DAY IN AND DAY OUT, THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THEIR AREA OF COLLECTIONS INSIDE AND OUT, LIKE I’M SURE YOU CAN GO TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS TODAY, YOU’VE GOT EMPLOYEES WHERE THEY KNOW THEIR LITTLE RECORD GROUP THEY KNOW VERY WELL AND THEY CAN FIND THINGS IN THEIR SLEEP.

I WOULD NOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

SO WE ARE NOT HERE -- TIMES CHANGE, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE HERE AS AN INSTITUTION TO DO IS TO REMAIN STEADFAST, AND PART OF REMAINING STEADFAST IS TO PROTECT THOSE COLLECTIONS FOR THE FUTURE.

PARIS: DR. TRENT, YOU MENTIONED THAT AMERICA IS COMING UP ON ITS 250TH ANNIVERSARY.

I KNOW IT IS FAR AWAY IN THE FUTURE, BUT 250 YEARS FROM NOW, HOW DO YOU WANT, EACH OF YOU, HOW DO YOU WANT YOUR WORK TO BE REMEMBERED?

>> THAT’S A GOOD ONE.

THE ASPECT THAT WE THINK YOU WOULD FEEL THIS WAY TOO IS THAT THERE WOULD BE WORK TO BE REMEMBERED.

THAT OUR EFFORTS NOW TO PRESERVE AND TO COLLECT AND TO PROTECT INFORMATION ITEMS THAT WILL GO INTO THE FUTURE, IF THAT HAPPENS, I THINK WE WILL HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING.

>> PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THINGS.

PAPER HAS TO GET ROTATED, FILM HAS TO GET STORED THE RIGHT WAY.

SO I’M HOPING THAT THOSE MAKE IT A NEVER TO TURN 50 YEARS -- ANOTHER 250 YEARS.

WHEN PEOPLE TOUR THE MUSEUM AND I TAKE THEM THROUGH, I LET THEM KNOW THAT THE OLDEST HISTORIC BLACK CHURCH BUILDING IN THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE WERE DONATING, THEY WERE DOING ALL THESE ACTIONS AND THEY DID IT FOR A FUTURE THEY COULDN’T SEE.

THEY KNEW THAT WHAT THEY WERE INVESTING IN WAS GOING TO BE A COUNTRY BEYOND THEIR IMAGINATION.

SOMETHING THEY COULDN’T CONCEIVE OF.

SO I THINK THAT OUR WORK, IN THAT WE ARE DOING THINGS FOR FUTURE WE CANNOT SEE, IS SOMETHING WE CAN’T EVEN CONCEIVE OF, I THINK ABOUT BEING IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AND BEING IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND GOING INTO A ROOM AND OPENING UP A FOLDER AND THE JOY YOU FEEL WHEN YOU FIND A DOCUMENT THAT VERIFIES A NOTION THAT YOU HAD, I HOPE THAT WE CAN PROVIDE THAT TO GENERATIONS TO CALM.

>> IT WAS PROBABLY SOMETHING THAT FREDERICK DOUGLASS WROTE HIMSELF, AND THERE IT WAS.

PARIS: I THINK IT’S A FASCINATING, GIVEN THE WORK THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS HAS DONE TO PRESERVE THE WRITINGS OF FRANKIE DOUGLAS -- FREDERICK DOUGLASS, HAS HAD A FREDERICK DOUGLASS HOLOGRAPHIC THAT CAN TALK TO PEOPLE OF ALL AGES.

WHAT A TESTAMENT TO HOW HISTORY CAN STAND THE TEST OF TIME.

>> THAT’S WHAT WE HOPE FOR.

WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO THE FREDERICK DOUGLASS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE THAT WE’VE DONE AS AN EXHIBITION AT THE PAPERS OF FREDERICK DOUGLASS NOT BEEN PRESERVED, HAD HIS BOOKS NOT BEEN PRESERVED.

WE PUT ALL OF THAT INTO OUR CLOSE DATA SET AND THAT’S HOW THE AI DRAWS THE INFORMATION.

SO WHILE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE TALKING TO FREDERICK DOUGLASS, WHAT YOU’RE ACTUALLY DOING IS TALKING TO AN INTELLIGENCE THAT HAS GONE THROUGH ALL THE PAPERS THAT WE’VE LOADED IN AND AMALGAMATING AN ANSWER TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHO HE WAS.

THAT’S THE BENEFIT OF THIS TECHNOLOGY AND THE HISTORICAL COMING TOGETHER.

AND WE HAVE EVEN LOADED IN ALL OF HIS WORK YET.

IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS, BECAUSE FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS ONE OF THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, NEXT TO ABRAHAM LINCOLN, BECAUSE HE KNEW THE POWER OF THIS NEW THING CALLED PHOTOGRAPHY.

AND HE MADE SURE THAT HE WAS PHOTOGRAPHED.

>> AND SO FOR US, THE OPPORTUNITY THAT PREVENTS FOR FUTURE VERSIONS OF AI IS HOW DO WE INVOLVE THE REPUTATION OF DOUGLASS BASED ON THE PHOTOGRAPHS WE HAVE SEEN?

CAN AI PULL THAT TOGETHER TO CREATE A MORE REALISTIC FREDERICK DOUGLASS?

NONE OF THOSE OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE TO US IF WE DON’T DO THE FIRST STEPS IN PRESERVING THESE CRITICAL ELEMENTS.

PARIS: IT SO FASCINATING.

I WILL LET BOTH OF YOU GO BUT I’M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION, WHAT IS ONE THING THAT IS KEEPING YOU ROOTED?

>> SEEING THE REACTION OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO COME INTO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND DISCOVER A BLACKWELL FAMILY TREE AND SEEING THEIR GREAT-GRANDMOTHER, THAT WAS A MOMENT.

>> WHAT IS KEEPING ME ROOTED THESE DAYS IS THE COMMENTS FROM THE COMMUNITY ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT MUSEUM IS AND HOW ANGRY THEY ARE ABOUT THE LOSS OF OUR FUNDING, BUT HOW THEY WANT TO HELP US KEEP ON KEEPING ON.

PARIS: DR. TRENT AND DR. CARL HAYDEN, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

>> I THINK HE HAS A PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE OTHER AND PERHAPS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE -- I DON’T LIKE THE TERM, BUT A MINORITY IN THAT GEORDIE SPACE.

PARIS: CUE THE WHITE SMOKE, WE GOT A NEW POPE.

FORMER CARDINAL ROBERT PREVOST TOOK THE NAME POPE LEO XIV AS THE WORLD’S 267TH PONTIFF AND THE FIRST BORN IN THE U.S. AND GET THIS, POPE LEO MAY BE A BROTHER.

[LAUGHTER] SO JAMES, I MEAN, IS HE OR NOT?

I DON'T KNOW.

LIKE JAMES, WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

>> ALL RIGHT, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, I THINK IT COMES OUT OF THE FACT THAT BECAUSE HE IS FROM THE U.S., BECAUSE HE’S FROM CHICAGO, A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY ARE KEYED INTO WHO HE IS AND IS PAST, WE ARE SEEING OLD TWEETS, WE ARE SEEING HIS MOTHER’S TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE GROWING UP WITH HIM.

IT ALSO MEANS THAT COMING OUT OF THE U.S., YOU CARRY SOME OF THAT RACIAL BAGGAGE WITH YOU.

PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW, NOTHING IS EVER SUPER CUT AND DRY.

PARIS: THEY WANT TO KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU?

AND HE’S A LOT OF THINGS.

JAMES: SOME OF THE REPORTS THAT ARE KIND OF MAKING THE ROUNDS SUGGEST THAT SOMEONE ON HIS MOTHER’S SIDE COMES OUT OF A CREOLE BACKGROUND.

SOME WOULD EVEN SAY HAITIAN.

OTHER OR NOT THAT’S TRUE, I DON’T KNOW.

I THINK YOU ARE THE GENEALOGY CONNECTOR.

PARIS: THERE IS A GENTLEMAN WHO THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTED HAD DONE HIS GENEALOGY DISCOVERY AND AS WE KNOW, POPE LEO HAS ITALIAN, FRENCH AND SPANISH ANCESTRY AND IN THIS GENEALOGICAL DIG, IT REVEALED THAT YES, HIS MOTHER HAS SOME CREOLE, POSSIBLY IN HAITI AS WELL, BUT SHE ALSO ALLEGEDLY, THE TORT CATHOLIC REPORTED THAT WHEN SHE MOVED TO CHICAGO SHE CHOSE TO PASS, AND WE KNOW THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE HAVE DONE THROUGHOUT HISTORY, TRYING TO ASSIMILATE, IF THEY LOOK WHITE, ASSIMILATE INTO THAT IDENTITY.

REVERENT PRICE, YOU ARE NODDING YOUR HEAD BECAUSE THERE’S A LOT OF LITTLE TENTACLES UP IN THIS STORY, RIGHT?

WHY ARE WE SOAP ASSESSED WITH THIS RIGHT NOW?

>> IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, WE ARE OVERLY FASCINATED WITH RACE.

NOT EVEN SO MUCH CULTURE OR ETHNICITY.

WE ARE OVERLY FASCINATED WITH RACE.

SO WE CAN TAKE HIS FAMILY LINE, BASED ON HIS GENEALOGY, BACK TO THE LATE 19TH CENTURY.

BY 1910, THE FAMILY HAS CHOSEN AS PART OF THE GREAT MIGRATION TO MOVE TO CHICAGO.

AND THE MOTHER AT THAT TIME HAS PASSED, PUT WHITE ON HER IDENTIFICATION ARTICLES.

THE QUESTION IS, HOW DOES THAT INFLUENCE AND IMPACT HOW HE SHOWS UP IN THE WORLD?

AND WHO HE PRESENTS HIMSELF TO BE.

SO NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE HAD THE QUESTION, SO NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE QUESTION WHETHER HE WAS A BROTHER.

SO WHAT HE IS, IS SOMEWHAT OF AN IMMIGRANT, WHICH ACTUALLY MAKES HIS ELECTION AS POPE TO OVER 133, SIGNIFICANT.

HE IS AN IMMIGRANT, BECAUSE BY THE TIME HE GETS ORDAINED AS A PRIEST, AND I THINK ABOUT 1982, BY 1985 HE IS IN PERU.

AND HE IS IN PERU FOR THE GREAT MAJORITY OF HIS MINISTRY UNTIL HE IS ELEVATED TO ROME.

SO HE’S NEVER REALLY BEEN AN AMERICAN CLERGY CULT LEADER, PER SE.

SO HE IS AN IMMIGRANT, HE IS A U.S.-BORN PERSON WHO IS SERVING IN PERU, WHICH MEANS THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE GLOBAL PEACE AND THE INCLUSIVE PIECE OF THE POWER AND INFLUENCE AND IMPACT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

PARIS: AS THE POPE ACTUALLY SHOULD.

WE ARE SO QUICK TO JUMP ON THESE THINGS, AND IS SO FASCINATING, WHETHER IT’S LACK AMERICA OR WHATEVER, WE’RE SO QUICK TO CLAIM SOMEBODY AND SAY I KNOW LYDIA EDWARDS WAS CLOUDED IN THE CLUB -- IN THE GLOBE SAYING HE HAS PEOPLE IN LOUISIANA HE IS RELATED TO AND THAT’S KIND OF COOL THAT YOU MIGHT BE RELATED TO THE POPE.

MY QUESTION IS, IS HE SHOWING UP TO THE FAMILY REUNION?

TO YOUR POINT ABOUT LIVED EXPERIENCE.

>> THAT IS THE THING I FIND SO INTERESTING ABOUT THIS.

IT’S SUCH AN ARBITRARY DISCUSSION AND IT’S SO UNIQUELY LIKE US, LIKE U.S., THE UNITED STATES.

IT’S SO UNIQUE TO HEAR.

LET’S JUST SAY FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT CREOLE DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY -- LET’S SAY HE DOESN’T HAVE ANY HAITIAN ANCESTRY OR WHATEVER.

STILL, THOUGH HE WAS BORN IN 1955.

AROUND THE SAME TIME AS MY FATHER IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

I DAD WAS BORN IN SOUTH CAROLINA, HE WAS FROM CHICAGO.

AT THAT TIME, AND MAYBE EVEN A GENERATION BEFORE, ITALIAN HERITAGE?

SPANISH HERITAGE?

THAT’S NOT WHITE, THAT’S NOT LOCALLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

ITALIANS ARE DIRTY, THEY ARE NOT WELCOME, THE STEREOTYPE WAS LESS INTELLIGENT.

THAT IS ALREADY KIND OF A BLACK MARK ON HIS HERITAGE, AND EXCLUSION FROM THE CLUB OF WHITENESS.

PARIS: HIS WORD ALSO NOTING THAT IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT HIS GRANDFATHER, JOSEPH MARTINEZ, WAS HAITIAN, OR CLASSIFIED AS LACK AS WELL.

A LOT OF DIFFERENT NUANCES THERE, WHICH HAS BEEN REPORTED TOO THAT EVEN MOREOVER, IT REFLECTS THE COMPLICATED EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHEN IT COMES TO RACE.

IN THAT REGARD, MAYBE IT IS THE PERFECT TIME FOR HIM TO BE ELECTED POPE.

WHETHER HE IS BLACK OR NOT, WHAT EXACTLY DOES HIS BACKGROUND -- HOW DOES THAT POSITION HIM TO SERVE AS THE PEOPLE SPOKE?

>> WELL, AGAIN, I THINK HE HAS A PERSPECTIVE AND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE OTHER, AND PERHAPS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE -- AND I DON’T LIKE THE TERM, BUT A MINORITY IN THE MAJORITY SPACE.

HE IS AUGUSTINIAN BY ORDER, SO HE HAS TAKEN VOWS OF POVERTY, OF SERVICE, AND OF SPREADING THE GOSPEL AMONG WHICH WE USE THE TERM, EVANGELIZING.

HE ALSO HAS TARGETED A LOT OF HIS SPEAKING AROUND SOCIAL JUSTICE, AROUND INCLUSIVITY, BLACK LIVES MATTER, YES.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE BECAUSE THE BIG CHALLENGES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NOW ARE AROUND GENDER, OR AROUND THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, AND ARE AROUND THE POSSIBILITY OF WOMEN ABLE TO LET THEIR VOICE BE HEARD.

SO HE IS CALLING FOR A SYNOD A DIMOCK ROTATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, SO LET’S SEE HOW FAR HE GOES WITH THAT.

PARIS: COULD SOME OF THOSE PERSPECTIVES INCLUDE BLACK CATHOLICS, WHICH WE NOTE MAKES UP ONLY 6% OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND HAS FELT OSTRACIZED?

>> I FIND IT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING THAT HE WAS COMING OUT OF HIS MISSIONARY WORK IN PERU, AND IS NOW THE BISHOP OF ROME.

BUT YOU THINK FOR A SECOND THAT CATHOLIC REPRESENTATION IN EUROPE IS ON THE DECLINE.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GROWING IN LATIN AMERICA, AND WHAT WE WOULD CALL COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, AND SO I THINK THERE’S NO WAY THAT HE’S NOT THINKING ABOUT HOW BLACK AND BROWN CATHOLICS ARE SHOWING UP ON THE WORLD STAGE AND BEING WELCOMED INTO THAT FOLD.

I’M NOT SAYING IS TRYING TO ABANDON EUROPEAN CATHOLICS, BUT THE GROWTH IS IN THAT GROWTH THAT HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED ON THE WORLD STAGE.

>> YOU LOOK AT HIS TIME FROM AROUND 2021 UNTIL NOW, THIS CAT HAS JUST CLIMBED.

PARIS: NOT THIS CAT, FOR REAL.

[LAUGHTER] >> I MEAN, HE’S JUST CLIMBED THE RANKINGS IN A WAY THAT IS REALLY UNPRECEDENTED.

AND THEN AGAIN, FOR HIM TO HAVE OVER 100 VOTES OF THE 133 PEOPLE, SO YOU ARE RIGHT, JAMES, THIS DUDE KNOWS HOW TO GROW A CHURCH.

THIS DUDE KNOWS HOW TO REACH THE PEOPLE.

THIS DUDE KNOWS HOW TO INSPIRE FAITH AND REALLY CHALLENGE THE PROXIMITY OF HOPE, MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO FEEL HOPE IN DISPARATE TIMES.

AND THIS PERSON IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK TO THE NUMEROUS LEADERS OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, MANY OF WHICH ARE OPERATING FROM, IF NOT A NATIONALISTIC, A WHITE SUPREMACIST ORIENTATION.

PARIS: DO YOU THINK HE WILL RUN INTO SOME CHALLENGES THERE?

>> OF COURSE, BUT IF THERE IS A PERSON TO DO IT, HAVING SAID THE CARDINALS HAVE CHOSEN HIM, THIS HAS TO BE THE PERSON.

PARIS: JAMES, YOU NOTED THE GROWING CATHOLIC POPULATION IN LATIN AMERICA, ALSO NOTING THAT 20% OF CATHOLICS ARE IN AFRICA AS WELL, THE AFRICAN CONTINENT.

THERE ARE VARIOUS ISSUES THAT POPE FRANCIS ADDRESSED THERE SO WE CAN SEE THAT LEGACY CONTINUING.

I AM CURIOUS BECAUSE THERE ARE SIX BLACK STATES WHO HAVE YET TO BE -- BLACK SAINTS WHO HAVE YET TO BE CANONIZED.

DO YOU THINK THAT COULD HAPPEN UNDER POPE LEO?

>> THIS WILL BE WHERE WE FIND OUT IF THE BROTHER CAN COME TO THE COOKOUT.

TALKING ABOUT HIS TRAJECTORY, WE NEED TO SEE THAT NUMBER INCREASED EXPONENTIALLY, BECAUSE BY THAT MEASUREMENT, WE WILL KNOW IF HE IS DOWN FOR THE CALL.

PARIS: OK, SO THERE YOU HEAR IT, THAT IS THE TEST.

JAMES, COULD IT HAPPEN?

JAMES: I DIDN’T EVEN KNOW THERE WERE SIX IN THE WINGS.

PARIS: THEY HAVE BEEN HANGING OUT FOR A LONG TIME.

>> THE QUESTION I HAVE IS WHY HAS THAT NOT HAPPENED YET?

IS IT BECAUSE OF BLACK AFFAIRS, IMMIGRANT ISSUES, OTHERS ISSUES AREN’T REALLY AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE MINDS OF PREVIOUS LEADERS OF THIS CHURCH?

THERE IS THAT PERSPECTIVE THAT HE BRINGS TO THAT CHAIR IN THE VATICAN.

IS IT LIKE, I’M THINKING ABOUT IT, I’M AWARE OF IT, OF COURSE.

VERSUS LIKE WHY WOULD I THINK ABOUT THAT?

I’M SOME DUDE FROM POLAND.

I’M SERIOUS.

YOU FEEL WHAT I’M SAYING, RIGHT?

>> YES, THERE ARE CERTAIN RUBRICS BY WHICH PEOPLE HAVE TO GO THROUGH, LIKE YOU GOT TO DO THIS COUPLE OF YEARS, AND THERE HAS BEEN A MIRACLE, THERE’S ALL THESE THINGS.

BUT THE POINT IS, PEOPLE CAN SEE WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE AND THEY WANT TO SEE IT, IF THEY WANT TO SEE IT.

THAT SEE IF HE WANTS TO SEE IT.

PARIS: YOU HEARD IT HERE.

TALKING ABOUT POPE LEO XIV.

I AM PARIS ALSTON THE FIRST, BUT NOT THE ONLY.

THAT IS IT FOR THIS EPISODE OF "GBH NEWS ROOTED."

AS WE ALWAYS ASK, WHAT KEEPS YOU ROUTED AND WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT MATTER TO YOU?

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS IDEA OF THE FIRST LACK POPE?