support for firs goes Connect is provided in part by Baptist Health and North Florida.

TPO.

Opinions expressed on the First Coast Connect week in review are those of our panelists an do not reflect the views of W.A.

News 89 nine.

Good morning.

I'm Anne Schundler, and it's Friday, which means it's time for our first coast we can review.

Among our topics, trash talk and city Hall over a proposed garbage fee increase.

Growing calls to close a local ICE detention facility after complaints of abuse.

A newly constituted school board makes a rightward turn.

A judge dismisses a lawsuit hoping to save Cumberland's beleaguered horses.

And a three day tire fire lights up the north side.

To talk about it all, I'm joined by Riley Phillips, anchor and reporter at First Coast news.

Welcome, Riley.

You the morning.

Good to have you back.

Tricia Booker, author, former reporter and journalism professor at the University of North Florida.

Good morning, Tricia.

Good morning.

In will brown race, poverty and inequality.

Reporter at jacksonville today.

Hi, will.

Good morning, ann.

And via video, we're joined b nate monroe, statewide columnist for the USA today network in florida.

Hey, nate.

Good morning again.

So we're going to start with a proposed hike to the city's garbage fees.

Jacksonville currently charges about $150 per household for solid waste removal.

That would have to double to $300 if the city wanted to cover the true cost of the service.

City Councilmember Matt Carlucci believes it's time to start charging what it actually costs to collect garbage.

And he joins us now by phone.

Matt Carlucci, good morning.

How has the cost of garbage removal and the fees charged to resident Well, the the the city under John Payton was caught in a time when the then governor, Charlie Crist, he ran on the promise of lowering property taxes and property insurance cost in the past by a referendum he put together for local governments to cut the millage.

But to Mills Sujan, Mayor Payton had to come up with a way to find some revenue streams to help us, you know, keep meeting our other obligations of essential city services.

So he decided to do a garbage fee and a stormwater fee, which I thought I thought it took real courage for him to do that and I thought it was the right thing to do.

I wasn't on the council at the time, but I did go out on his town meetings and and help in any way I could.

I mean, so that's how the fee was created.

But how did we get to a point where we're not actually able to pay for this service?

Well, with the fee, the the fee hasn't been changed for 14 years.

Okay.

Short answer.

I mean, so it hasn't been changed in 14 years.

You tried four years ago without success to kind of remedy this.

And that was soundly defeated.

Yes, I did.

Costs have continued to go up.

Yes, they have continued to go in on our policy rates.

Fees are going up because they're having to pay their drivers more money.

And, um, and so with the with, with the increased cost of of garbage pickup and collection and, and the fact that the fee has not been has not been raise for 14 years, um, I'd love to go buy my, my car at a 14 year ag rate, you know what I'm saying.

And it and so I think it would be less but at any rate the so what happen is if our rate is not sufficient to cover the to cover the entire cost, then we have to take out we've got to take money from our general fund and that turns into a loan which is been agreed upon by interlocal agreement with the beaches because they pay their garbage fee and they pay the full cost, but they're paying into the general fund as well of the city.

They have their own garbage service.

Yeah.

So it has to be aligne with your what are your goals?

Undertaking this once again to try to raise the fee.

What do you hope to accomplish?

Well, there's three things I want to accomplish until I think I've got a good handle on.

But one is just setting the rate on the fee, and that has it's a two ordinance, um, process.

You have an ordinance that tells the city of Jacksonville and puts everybody on notic that we're going to be studying what the piece should be and talks about a public hearing and so forth.

If that bill passes, the the second ordinance would be, well this is what the fee is set out.

And um, and uh, and we take it public and we take it public and then we can build some consensus on it.

Are you talking abou like putting people to, though?

Are you talking about putting it to the voter when you say take it?

No, ma'am.

No, ma'am.

No, ma'am.

This this this is a this is one council members have to live up to the job they were sworn to uphold.

Sure.

But you're saying that you would have to actually passed an ordinance to even convene a discussion of this before you could discuss it?

Well, we can discuss it, and we.

But I've already had one sunshine meeting.

That's what I call.

You know what?

I invite my colleagues and we it's notice meeting.

We had that two weeks ago or so and I listened to what they had to say and I took back to the auditors and our general counsel some of their feedback.

Matter of fact, they were at the meeting.

And so I've been meeting with the general counsel and the auditors on and off since then, and we met yesterday.

I think we've got, um, we've got the first ordinance.

We know pretty muc what that's going to look like.

And, and then the, and then, but the second audience is the one that actually if it passes council that actually executes, um, the fee increase.

Gotcha.

I want to bring in Nate Monroe.

Nate, you've covered this issue probably more than any other single person.

And honestly, you've probably done more to light a fire under city officials.

Um, why are lawmakers seemingly so reluctant to touch this issue?

You know, I mean, there' an interesting history with the the idea of a trash fee in Jacksonville politics.

When Tommy Hazari failed to win reelection as mayor, there are people who credit that that failure to a new garbage fee that that he was pushing at the time.

And I think like there is this sort of lingering bad memory about that over an issue like this.

But I also thin it just kind of stems from this this kind of Jacksonville mindset that we can do everything on the cheap.

There are exceptions to this, you know, Councilmember Carlucci being one.

But by and large, a lot of these city politicians just are terrified of asking residents to pay more money for the services that they get.

I mean, the important thing to keep in mind here, too, is that, you know, this is a user fee.

It's not a tax.

This isn't tax mone that goes into a general fund.

And then it gets you know, may be spent on stuff.

Some of it you like, some of it you don't.

This is this is the cos that you're paying for someone to pick up trash at your house and bring it out to the landfill.

And, you know, outside of Baldwin like, that is what you're paying.

And so it really should be fairly straightforward.

It's remarkabl that as as Matt noted, you know, this fee is not going up since like Barack Obama's first term in office, which is crazy, like what cos the same as what it did in 2010.

Nothing does nobody should expect that it would.

This really should not be a difficult conversation to have with with voters and with homeowners.

And yet for some reason, it just it's just the Jacksonville way.

It's way more complicated than it should be.

You know, this issue was taken up.

I mean, as you've reported, the city council auditor has flagged this every year as a problem and a growing problem.

And in 2022, the city council had a committee.

They convened, they discussed thi and recommended more evaluation.

But then nothing ever happened with that.

And I guess, again, because is like a bit of a third rail or lawmakers and there already has been some pushback, Nate.

Yeah, I mean, there always will be.

I mean, nobody wants to pay more money for stuff.

It's a huge bummer.

But that's that's also jus kind of the way the world works.

The beaches pay a higher fee.

The beaches pay like 1 something for their trash fee.

And they have not like those communities have not like fallen into the sea.

I mean, it's not something that's like impossible.

There are communities all around Florida in the United States that pay trash fees, and by and large, the vast majority of them are more than the $12 and chang that Jacksonville residents pay.

Jacksonville resident have been getting a great deal for the last 14 years, so, I mean, again, lik it should not be that difficult.

And what is compoundin the problem is that the council is very reluctant to tell a waste haulers No, when they come to the council asking for more money to haul this trash away.

And so what you're what you're seeing ove time is the cost of picking up this trash is going way, way higher.

But we're doing nothing to rectify to kind of close the gap between what people are actually paying for the service and what it's actually costing the city.

And so it's just exacerbating the problem in every year that they fail to to to adjust the fee, it' going to be harder in the future to adjust the fee.

Yeah, because nobody wants to drop a huge shock bill on residents all at once.

No, Tricia, I mean, I'm kind of a firm believer that people who always should probably be getting some of the highest wage as opposed to the lowest wages, but they did just recently get a big increase, and that was because during COVID they couldn't find people to do the job.

There was trash piling up.

You'll remember, you know, there was even a story in The New York Times about the biggest city in Florida can't pick up its garbage.

It was an embarrassment.

Yeah.

And this seems to me that, again, 14 years we've gone without an increase.

And I understand that we want to do things on the cheap.

But it seems to me that if we had been doin incremental increases all along, this wouldn't be an issue.

I don't know why the council would be so reluctan to do these small increases year by year that residents probably really wouldn't even notice.

And I really I, I'm kind of struck by what Mr. Carlucci said, that, Yeah.

That the council is terrified to raise any kind of taxe or any kind of fee on residents.

Minimal though it may be, even if it had not kept up with the cost of the trash.

We certainly wouldn't be in the million multimillion dollar hole that we are in now.

Yeah.

We're talking about the week's biggest storie with our panel of journalists.

If you'd like to join the conversation, you can give us a call at 9045492937.

You can also email first coast connect to WJC dot org or reach out on social media.

I want to take a call from Brenda on the west side.

Good morning, Brenda.

Go ahead.

It's good.

Good morning.

I would like to say that I absolutely support this.

I have no problem paying for an increase because, one, it's well deserved.

And I think tha the city workers who pick up our tras should be earning a fair wage.

And I don't have a problem with the increase.

Thank you, Brenda, for that input.

Councilman Carlucci.

There are some people that, like Brenda, are going to support this but it is a significant increase to look at straight up doubling the current amount.

What, if anything would you put into place to help either ease this in or protect people who just simply can't afford the to pay that increase?

Well, let me go back t what they said on other cities.

One of the cities at the beach is paying $36 a month.

So that that'll tell you something right there as opposed to I mean, break it, break it down for u so that we know the comparison.

Well, they're paying way over half of what we're paying.

They're paying what we're paying times 2.2 or something like that, I guess.

Okay.

But so I just wanted to point that out because that's a local thing.

They were sitting on all the right subjects.

I just wanted to give a local example.

The other bill that I would that I intend to introduce and I've gone over this with the general counsel of the Council of Auditors and everything I've done.

I have leaned heavily on the auditors and the general counsel.

One would be a fund that would be probably funded by the general fund with perhaps $1,000,000 in there.

It's a similar fund that they have for the stormwater fee for people who need a little relie on that because of their income.

And they can apply and they can really they can receive some assistance.

And I would make that that bill because it's if it's pai for, would apply to them taxes.

That means the beaches involved would pay us as well.

So I would make that that bill of of a relief of help and assistance.

Everybody in Jacksonville, the beaches Baldwin and the rest of the city of Jackson would be eligible to apply.

And cause I, I think we've got to have something in place.

My my concern about if we just do this like, let's say that we increase the fee, it's, you know, instead of 25 or $26 a month, the $20 a month, and that would stop the bleeding a bit but the loan would still grow.

Um, but the problem I see with that is you've got to get the council to once again increase the garbage fee and, uh.

Yeah.

And same.

I just.

I just.

I just think we need to, um.

But I feel somewhat of a personal responsibility because I try to get this done in 2020, and I guess I it just wasn't good enough.

Sales, you know, I went up to take a call from Tom it and ask Jack's.

Good morning, Tom.

Go ahead.

Yes, good morning.

It seems to me as if all these proponents of raising fees is out of touch with reality.

My homeowner's insurance is almost $4,000 a year.

My property taxes granted not that much, but they certainly add to it.

Mortgage rates are going higher and higher as we speak.

And now someone wants to increase the user fee.

I don't really care how much they're paying at the beach.

That's their problem.

I live in Jacksonville.

We're talking about Jacksonville.

I don't care about the municipalities.

I care about Jacksonville.

And if this is a user fee, Carlucci then I have the opportunity to decline to pay that fee and to participate.

If I don't want to pay the use fee and Hanna Park, I don't go.

If I don't want to pay the use fee for your trash collection, I don't pay it.

I'll take the stuff to the dump myself.

What in the world is going to make you people finally understand what other people are dealing with?

You just want to increase prices because you can afford it.

God bless you.

You pay it.

The rest of us.

We're struggling out here.

You don't even understand it.

Thanks, Tom.

Carlucci.

Mr. Carlucci, I'm guessing that's kind of something along the lines of what you and your colleagues can expect to hear as this moves forward.

I'm sure it will be.

And I look, I. I could understand his outrage, so to speak, but that doesn't erase the fact that this is a real problem in local government and it has to be solved in some form or fashion.

I'm putting out a way to, um, to solve it.

And by the way, I can afford it.

That's true.

But I have friends and family who are going to struggle to have to pay it.

I do live in the real world.

I'm sitting at my insurance desk today, and I will be on today's Friday, and I'll be working all day long.

Uh, so I work hard.

I am in touch with reality, but I'm also in touch with the reality of fulfilling my obligation to make sure we keep our city sound.

And if we do that, that the loan at the end of this fisca year will be up to $93 million.

And if we don't do anything by the end of the next fiscal year, it might be 130 million.

We don't know.

But it is going to be high.

How are we going to fix it?

Uh, some people may say do away with the fee and just let the general fund pay it.

Um, and I think, uh, I, don't think that's a good idea.

It can be done, but.

Well, why not?

I mean, you know, there are people there are people who are saying, like, instead of a fee, why should this be rolled into a general service that the city provides, like police or fire?

And that way you wouldn't have to worry about these incremental increases.

People would just be paying the tax that they pay and you'd pay for the service out of that.

Well, it's very adaptable to a user fee, which makes it fee friendly, number one.

Number two um, a fee, uh, cannot be fiddled with by the Florida legislature or the governor.

That's why Mayor Payton introduced the fee, because he got hit with a two mil increase by a referendum that then Charlie Crist, Governor put on the ballot and everybody voted for it, of course.

Um, so every city was, was like stuck with trying to make up the difference.

And so the idea was we'll do the stormwater fee, the garbage fee because those would be two revenue streams that the governor and the state can't, can't mess with.

So there they would be permanent reliable income streams.

And also I think in my opinion that it helps the taxpayer know what the price that they're paying for garbage is.

And if it gets too high, they can demand that we go out to bid on our our servicing business in the haulers.

So that's why I support the fee.

But and and it and if we did not have the garbage fee we would lose about a 40 some odd million dollar, uh, income stream in next year's budget.

And we're already is already looks like the budget's going to be some hundred million dollars shy of um, so, you know, if, if we want a great city, we've got to do things the right way.

And I just believe that and I did this before I ran for reelection last time, and I have some of the same call as the nice gentleman before us.

Um, but this time around, I tell you, I've got to tell you I'm finding a lot more support from the average, uh, taxpayer out there than I did back in 20.

There are a lot of people that agree with this.

Well we will continue to follow it.

Councilmember Matt Carlucci, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

I really appreciate it.

And we're going to move on now to some other topic with our panel of journalists.

I want to talk about a story that you've been covering.

Riley.

This is a immigration and Customs Enforcement detention facility known as an ICE facility in Baker County.

It's been getting some renewed negative attention.

Bring us up to speed on what has been happening in the last couple of weeks, in the last couple of months.

So last week, two new documents dropped, a new ACLU civil rights complaint filed on behalf of this woman who spent several month in the ICE detention facility.

She claims that she was mistreated, harassed, unjustly, put in solitary confinement, and then a whistleblower disclosure also was released.

The whistleblower is a former nurse practitioner at the detention facility, and she detailed the same thing that she witnessed neglect, harassment, staff members, falsifying medical records.

So that came to light last week.

And then on Monday, a former congressman, Maxwell Frost, represent the 10th Congressional District.

He got on social media.

This live stream and basically is now calling for this detention facility to be shut down.

And he wants to get it don while there's kind of this lame duck session in Congress befor the next administration starts, because we kind of really don't know what's going to happen when President Trump takes office.

And we should say that, you know, the contract that Baker County gets from the Department of Homeland Security to run this, that this facility i a significant amount of money.

I mean, they run their county jail out of part of it.

And then this detention facility out of the other part.

So the ACLU, this congressman callin for a shutdown of the facility.

I imagine that that would take a lot of political will on the part of people.

And, you know, certainly the sheriff would strongly oppose that.

What is he said so far?

So he they are not commenting.

The sheriff's office has not really commented on this situation in the last yea because it's you know, there's pending a pending lawsuit.

But in 2022, he did sit down with News four Jax and kind of refuted the the initial complaint that was filed, the federal complaint back in 2020 to 16, civil rights groups got together and filed a complaint against the Baker County Detention Center.

And so that was kind of not the first time that allegations have been made, but, you know, the first tim that it really made noise.

And, you know, he he refuted a lot of those claims and news for Jax was able to actually get inside the detention facility and get video.

But since then, you know, they've remained no comment on pending litigation.

And you also found an inspector general report that kind of addressed some of those concerns that were raised in that lawsuit, the civil rights claims a few years ago.

Yes, The inspector general's office for the Homeland and Department of Homeland Security did an unannounced visit back in January.

The findings were released in September.

And they did find things like, you know, the staff were not using, not providing the ICE detention handbooks in their, you know, multiple languages that people can read through and know their rights and know what to expect.

They were not handing those out.

There was issues with use of force, issues with the staff members not really writing down the complaints or requests of detainees.

According to the report, though, those issues have been remedied.

So, you know, that's what they're saying.

Yeah we'll Brown increased focus I guess on these issues on these facilities at this point perhaps merited because you know, under the second Trump administration, he has promised to do mass deportations presumably detention facilities like this one in Baker County would be utilized in organizin whoever is going to be deported before they actually are deported.

Correct.

And the thing that Florida Congressman Maxwell Frost mentioned was that this is not a humane way to treat people, regardless of what one thinks about the status of people who are in the country illegally or perhaps in the country legally and being deported from this country.

For us, this point is that that what is taking place at the Baker County ICE facility is not a humane way to treat people.

I read that idea inspector general's report yesterday.

And the thing that just stood out to me was it did not that folks did not comply with use of force standards.

That's I mean, whether someone's detained or not, you should still be able to house and detain someone humanely and use forc when necessary and appropriate and have documentation for when that force is used.

You know, Riley mentione that there were five suggestions and again, the two suggestions that really stood out, they've said that they've, you know, adhered to all of them, but, you know, implement interna controls that ensure the timely and appropriate response to detainee requests, processes.

People still have rights while they're being detained.

Right.

And Tricia, I mean, a lot of people think of people who are in ICE detention as criminals, but in fact, that is not a criminal charge if you're in the country without proper authorizatio or if you've overstayed a visa, you know, that's a civil offense.

Some people are detained while those court proceedings are going through.

But the people in this detention facility may, in fact, just be, you know, people who have overstayed a visa.

And I think most people would believe that, you know, that the standard should be somewhat different.

Well, sure.

I mean, most of most of them their main crime has been trying to escape a poverty and violence in their country of birth.

And we now are holding them in a place that is rife with poverty and violence.

Some of the things that I read, particularly the claims of the woman that you referred to, has been solitary confinement.

It's ghastly.

It really is awful.

The things that have happened to some of the people there.

And yeah, they are alleged or alleged to have happened.

Yes.

I'm sorry, alleged to have happened there.

But it does seem like most people agree that there have been some violations of what should be considered standard care for people who are being held for really just trying to get a better life.

I know someone who was held there for four months.

I believe he had three children.

He and his wife had both come here as very young teenagers.

They have three children who are American born.

And he was he got stoppe because his tail light was out when he was going to Walmart one night.

And he was held for four months.

And it's the way that this affects families is also something that I think needs to be considered.

I just want to catch up on a couple of emails related to our first topic, because I think it's worth mentioning.

We got an email from Jay saying not for nothing, but why can't the Jaguars kick in for the garbage fees?

Ricardo emailed hard to ask for raising fees after giving the Jags $1,000,000,000 for a stadium, not to mention all the downtown development largesse.

And Mike emailed What's the difference in the city funding the stadium and finding the grant and I guess funding the garbage service?

Nate Monroe I mean, you know, that's also an issue You've covered a great deal and there are going to people people who see a great disparity between the billions of dollars that, you know, ultimately are going to be spen on building the stadium, split between the city and the Jaguars and this $300 annually that residents could soon be charged for garbage.

Sure.

I mean, I'm not unsympathetic to people who are concerned about the ways that the perhaps foolish ways that the city spends its money, particularly on downtown and particularly on downtown developers like I get it.

Again, though, this is a user fee that the dyspeptic caller who who, you know, wished for a way he can haul the trash himself like I support that.

I totally wish we could offer people an opt out.

If you want to go driv your trash once or twice a week, you know, into the deep West Side and beyond, to take it to the landfill yourself, like have at it.

But it's a user fee.

It's this is the cost tha this should represent the cost to pick this trash up.

You know, rolling that amount into the general fund is sort of dishonest.

It all that's going to do is reduce the amount of city services that the city can provide because it's now.

But, you know, it would then be also financing trash pickup with property taxes that property taxes that have not been raised in the last two mayoral administrations.

And so you know, again, I get it.

Everything costs more.

If you're mad about your property insurance costing more, you should be writing the governor and your state legislators for failing to fix that.

That's not a city problem.

You know, at the end of the day, I think most of us are just adults who understand that when things go up, when the cost of things go up, you just kind of have to pay for it if that's what you want.

I mean, I don't know any other way to explain it.

All right.

I want to move on now to a topic of the Duval County School Board.

Tricia, this new school board members, three of them sworn in this week, signaling a real shift to the right on the part of the school board.

Five of the seven members endorsed by Moms for Liberty four and endorse by the governor, Ron DeSantis, all of them saying tha they have a basically a mandate given the recent elections, to fulfill what they believe is the community's will.

Some of that could include changes to sex education policies.

Absolutely.

It occurred to me, I don't kno if it's ironic or coincidental, but two weeks after we were the we failed to pass an amendmen to make school boards partizan.

We have a decidedly partizan school board.

Yeah, I think change is coming.

Even the first meeting was very contentious with a lot of sniping back and forth.

They do feel like they have a mandate and I think that we're going to see some changes that are going to be pretty drastic to a lot of schools.

Sex education and book banning.

And a lot of this is referred to as parent choice.

But I really also think it takes awa a lot of parent choice as well.

All right.

We should say the superintendent, Chris Bernier, is also endorsed by Moms for Liberty.

They've been very enthusiastic about him taking over and this report was released on him.

Riley, you know, that found that, you know, he'd been accused of a racial bias in his previous district.

This report found he was not he was not exhibiting racial bias.

But they did find tha he was a pretty unpleasant boss, according to all accounts.

Yes.

That he excuse me, you know, used still used unfavorable language, found that he spoke about and appeared to regard some women less favorably than the men.

Yes.

It while he didn't race, wasn't a facto in his mistreatment, it's still, you know, found that mistreatment, he's still mistreated some employees an equal opportunity bully, it sounds like.

Well, I mean, I sometimes think of that George Orwell line from Animal Farm, which I think is still allowed to be read in schools.

You know, everyone is equal, bu some are more equal than others.

It is fascinating to follow this school board.

And yes, I'm a reporter, but I make absolutely no hiding of it that I am a Duval County Public School parent.

And so when I look at the school board, I look at being a Duval County public School parent.

And there have been times this year that I've had to talk down my fourth grader from wanting to go up to the school board and give them a piece of his mind, and they said, don't do it.

It's not worth it.

Just talk to us.

But, you know, I think one of the people who commented on Tuesday night during when Charlotte Joyce was me, the chairman, and April Carney was me, the vice chairman, you know, during a public comment, she said she believed this board would, quote, care for kids who are LGBTQ.

Well, we have one member of the school board who's posted all sorts of means that could be perceived as hateful toward our LGBTQ community.

Tony Ricardo Yes.

And frankly, I spoke with a trans student earlier this calendar year, and he said he didn't always feel safe.

He didn't.

He said he didn't always feel protected when when it comes to some o the people in the school board.

And I remembe attending a school board meeting within the last 14 months where this student since graduated at an Ivy League school would address the school board and the current chair did not appear to be interested or engaged in what the student had to say.

While they're speaking at public comment to.

The school board.

So this this new chair and this new members of the board, I would challenge them as a parent who happens to get paid to be a reporter, to be transparent and present throughout all of Duval County, not just segments of Duval County.

A couple of comments on X from one from fire pit mike.

He says religious conservatives indoctrinate their children and then when schools try to educate the children with real information, conservatives call it indoctrination.

All students need access to high qualit research based and facts backed fact based sex and sexuality education programing.

Also, an ex Jags fan, Brian, says it's a shame that educators are not allowed to use professional judgment in the age and developmentally appropriate evaluation of curriculum.

Teenagers aren't elementary children.

Opt out has always existed.

We're talking about the week's top stories and we welcome your comments or questions.

You can reach us at 9045492937.

You can email first Coast Connect to WJC, talk or comment on social media.

I want to move on Trisha, to this topic of Cumberland Island horses is a conversation we're going to be having a longer discussion on next week.

But basically a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit that was filed in April of last year asking the state to address the fact that the horses aren't doing well there.

Yeah, the judge dismissed the case, but he also asked for the Park Service to please think it's a she.

She asked as the Park Service to to consider the complaints that were being put forth.

Horses, of course, are not indigenous to Cumberland Island, but they've been there in wild in some fashion over 200 years with different sizes of the herd.

But the people I spoke wit who are familiar with the horses there in the situation there said the island is just not meant to feed and to sustain that big herd.

And there are other places in the United States on the East Coast where horses live wild.

But those those herds are managed.

There's birth control.

There is they feed them.

They care for their welfare.

And and you're thinking like Assateague Island that.

Yeah, yeah, correct.

And these the horses on on Cumberland are have no care whatsoever.

They are left to fend for themselves and most of the mayors stay pregnant almost all the time.

And there's not a lot of natural food sources for them.

So it's not just a matter of the ecological damage that's being done to the island, which is significant.

But also there's a tremendous amount of suffering that goes on within the herd.

The horses are not doing well.

Yeah, we should say you kind of grew up on a hors and so, you know, from horses, I they're a big attraction.

A Cumberland people love kind of the beauty and, you know, the fact that they kind of are allowed to run wild there.

It does draw people to go to Cumberland Island.

But increasingly, you know, the picture of these horses is of borderline starvation.

Some of them are very, very skinny, where you can see their hip bones and their rib bones.

And it's not mayb as picturesque as it once was.

No, it's not.

And a lot of these the foals and the Colts that are born are not healthy and are not able to grow up into healthy horses.

I mean, it seems like there are a lot of people advocating for one extreme or another, eithe no horses or let them run free.

It sounds like a lot of horse advocates believe there is a middle ground.

There could be a horse herd of maybe 40 to 50 horses that are managed where they could still be an attraction.

But there's not the animal suffering that you're seeing now, and you still have it as a picturesque par of the tourism experience there.

And Nate, I think it's interesting, the judge dismissed this case, basically saying you don't have a claim because you're you know, you're kind of sayin that the state isn't addressing this environmental damage that's being done.

The judge recognizing the state hasn't done anything.

So there really isn't an actionable response that the judge can allow or, you know, that this these plaintiffs, these complainants can make and sort of interesting, it's like, well, you know, what is the recourse if the state is in fact, not doing anything and therefore there's nothing, no action that can be taken.

It feels like the law and particularly like environmental law, this kind of thing happens a lot where a judge will find that, you know, yes, this agency maybe didn't plan this project super well, but they did try to plan it and that's all they have to do.

You know, I feel like that's a that's a kind of common motif in environmental law and probably born ou of our country's long tradition of of being very suspicious of of regulation.

Yeah.

And well this is a lawsuit that was filed at the federal level.

It's now been dismissed.

And there are some expectations that it could be refiled in state court in the short term.

Really no resolution for the people that are advocating for the horses.

Correct.

And it is the horses just are allowed to roam free and hopefully not tear u too much of Cumberland Island.

Yeah.

Riley, I want to move on to another topic because you covered i and it has been a dominant story for people who live in North Jacksonville.

It's this tire fire that started Monday night at a recycling facility in north Jacksonville.

Tell us what happened there.

Yes, the fire, I believe, started around midnight Tuesday, Monday night into Tuesday.

And it is as of this morning that it's still burning after an Eric Ross membe confirmed to me just before the show started that they're still out there.

There's still some hot spots but it was burning really bright throughout the day Tuesday.

A lot of smoke in the air.

Thursday, they got it under control, manageable.

No smoke Wednesday, which was good for people who are concerned about air quality.

And then they were hoping to have it completely out Wednesday night.

But it's just cause a problem was explaining it's just such a deep fire because of all the tires that have melted.

So they're just trying to get at the special challenges of of a tire fire versus just like a regular fire.

It burns very hot, not rubber burns very hot.

It's almost like all the tires kind of congeal together.

So that's why they've had to bring in the heavy equipment, heavy machinery to just dig through the pile to find any areas that might still be on fire or hot and not helped by the fact that there's no fire hydrant near that site.

Yes.

Yes, they had to.

I mean, long We were I prosumer was able to get us closer to the scene on Wednesday.

But I mean, it was just this long hose that connected to another hose that they had to to bring out there.

They're basically pumping it from like nearby apartment complexes and the water used for those homes.

Yes.

There's one right before the recycling center, right in the side of the road.

And so, as you say, some of this these tires can produc a great deal of of toxic smoke.

It's a carcinogenic product.

I guess no surprise there.

There was winds helping disperse it in terms of, you know, there being a something that was kicking off meters or, you know, regula register on a air quality meter.

But the people who lived there were experiencing a lot of heavy smoke.

Yes.

And I think some people were concerned.

People with asthma, other respiratory issues were concerned and have every right to be.

I mean, there was a lot of smoke in the air.

But Jeff Hardy, they had their hazmat team on scene and they were testin periodically throughout the day.

And they say, according to their readings, everything seemed okay.

There was no cause for concern.

Yeah, well does an event like this prompt some sort of look back at kind of best practices?

I mean, having a water source near a site that could catch fire?

Seem like it would be a fundamental.

It would seem like that.

But it's something just don't surprise m when it comes to the north side.

And what I mean by that is the north side is where power is generated.

It's where recycling is taken, it's where, but yet it's the part of town where investment and jobs and investment are people's often not commonplace or investment in infrastructure is not the same as opposed to other areas of town.

So the fact that there is not a fire hydrant clos enough to a facility that stores hundreds of tires is on brand for Jacksonville.

Nate Monroe This is a costly operation for Jeffrey.

Is there any chance that the city could recoup some of the enormous expens of fighting this multiday fire?

That is an interesting question.

I am not an attorney, and I'm sure that the city will have its attorneys at that.

I, I think it would be.

I guess my only thought there is, you know, if your house catches on fire, I mean, that's what Jeff Hardy is there for, Right.

I would worry a little bit about a precedent that if something happens throug no fault of your own, you might you know, you could be on the hook for damages.

Right.

I also don't know if you know I don't know enough about this.

If if you know, if these operator are being negligent in some way, you know, there is probabl a balance between accountability and kind of a reasonabl precedent and think about there, Nate Monroe, Riley Phillips, Tricia Booker, Willie Brown, thank you all so much for being here today.

Appreciate it.

Thanks, Sam.

Thank you.

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On one day today, starting at ten on WJCT news 89 nine.

You welcome back.

Well, for some runners, the annual turkey trot on Thanksgiving morning is almost as anticipated as the holiday feast itself.

But the UF Health Turkey Trot in Atlantic Beach also has a larger goal.

And here to tell us about it is Dr. Raymond Battista, professor and chair of neurology at UF Health, Jacksonville.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Also, Ashton Kroner, the USMC veteran and associate director of development at USF Health.

Good morning, Ashton.

Good morning and thank you for having us.

Well, thanks for being here.

So this is the 10th year for the race.

Ashton, how has the event changed since its inception over those years?

Oh, my gosh.

So I am excited to sit there and say that we are you know, this is the first tim that we are going to have 5000.

You know, are projected to have 5000 runners.

It did not start off that way.

Started off much, much smaller.

So we're really excite to see it grow over the years.

We're able to, you know, raise more funds to be able to help expand programing for a lot of different organizations and programs here at USF.

So that must be the one of the largest.

Five KS around is is the largest five K here in Jacksonville.

Yeah.

We're really proud to say that now.

And so, Dr. Battista this is an event that benefits and focuses on traumatic brain injuries in particular.

What first of all, they are traumatic brain injuries and why do they need additional funding and attention?

Well, because you're come to a situation in your life where you're normal at one time and all of a sudden your life just takes you by the horn.

Right.

And, you know, I was telling, you know, I had a patient actually, I just saw a clinic a couple of weeks ago, a young 18, 19 year old who actually was honestly in school there.

Really mild head trauma, mild by standards.

I mean, not even requiring an E.R.

visit.

Aren't these required, but went home and then had personality changes with drawn in the room.

Their life was just passing them by.

And these stories play out over and over again.

More head trauma patients, even the milder ones, so to speak.

So raising awareness for something like this and trying to help them is very important.

What are the most common causes of a traumatic brain injury?

I mean, stands out.

I mean, hit.

I mean, this car accidents, of course, would be there.

I mean, sports related hea trauma, we take it for granted.

And thank God we have so much science right now that have made it actually safe and still interesting to watch.

And of course, ar veterans are first responders, of course, you know, are subjected to head trauma all the time.

Yeah.

Ashton, I want to ask you about that.

I mean, we've we hear about sports injury and connections to TBI, but there is indeed a lot more attention now on combat and training injuries for veterans and first responders.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, when it comes to our military now, I mean, we train, you know, like we're you know, we're in war.

It's very real training.

And so we're more prone to accidents like that.

In fact, a lot of our, you know, warriors, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom.

TBI is actually the signatur injury, you know, of that era.

I'm not going to say Gulf War.

You know, that's actually post-traumatic stress.

But, you know, it comes in a close, close second before those that are, you know, my generation, you know the signature injury is is TBI.

And it's because of, you know, we train, we train, you know like we're going to be fighting.

Yeah.

And you're a marine.

I mean, you've experienced some of these real life training scenarios and there's, you know, concern about those blasts that people are are doing.

You know, in training even before they get to the combat situation.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, we have a lot of different simulations that we're doing.

And I mean, so like when I was, you know, brand new, brand new Marine, you know, we're at the grenad range, were throwing grenades, you know, firing shoulder fired weapons.

You know, that vibration goes right up to your head.

I mean, there is so man different things that can cause, you know, thes these symptoms that we're seeing in the veterans that are coming through, you know, comin through these trauma programs, it's very, very, very catastrophic.

You know, And in some cases, you know, for some of these training accidents as well.

Yeah.

Dr. Batiste, I mean, we're learning more about brain injury, these kind of connections that haven't really been explored before at a time when we've been at war for, you know, a long time for an entire generation in some cases.

And so I would imagin that the number of those related Tbis are just skyrocketing.

I mean, definitely.

And if you think about it, you know, many of these folks actually live life with a TBI and many of them, you know, it doesn't come to you like like a lightning bolt, you know, head trauma and bleeding and vomiting.

It could be the everyday life experiences you have.

I can't concentrate.

I'm having migraines.

I get nauseous.

I'm more irritable.

These are TBI symptoms for many folks and what they need is help that actually addresses the roo cause of what's going on.

Yeah.

And so anyway, tbi are the focus of the turkey trot this five K in Atlantic Beach.

It's on November 28th.

So just tell us like where it begins and ends and how people could get involved if they want to.

Yeah.

So you can go to our website.

You have health, Jax, That word, backslash, backslash, turkey.

Try it.

And it has all the information on ther but we're actually at one ocean is is where everything is going to be happening.

And, you know, we have two different, you know, two different runs.

We have the five K, which for runners that are wanting to qualif for our first ever runners hat and they have to be there at 730.

So to start and then fou we also have like a family fun one mile run slash walk for those that are interested in that as well.

But All the information is on our website as well.

All right.

Well, Dr. Raymond Batiste, Ashton Kroner, thank you so much for being here today.

Appreciate it.

Thank you for having so much.

Sure.

And that's our program.

Thank you for listening.

If you have feedback or suggestions, you can send either to Firs Coast, connect to WJCT dot org.

And if you missed anything, you can catch our rebroadcast at 8:00 tonight.

You can also find our entire archive on your favorite podcast platform.

Join us Monda when we talk about composting.

So before you toss those Thanksgiving leftovers, we're going to tell you how you can start.

I'm in Shindler.

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