- [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Unspun," we'll preview the first presidential debate with our special guest, NBC's chief political analyst Chuck Todd.

The politics behind the questions who makes the rules, and what happens when a candidate breaks the rules?

Also, the spin game that both parties play after the debate.

"Unspun" is next on PBS Charlotte.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in here on "Unspun."

(dramatic music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to "Unspun," a show that tells you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

We're less than a week away from the first presidential debate and the first TV debate ever between a current president and a former president.

But I'll let you in on a little secret.

On debate night, the real winner will probably be the best spinner.

In fact, the spin game starts long before the debate does.

It's a debate tradition that dates back to the original TV debates in 1960.

- I think if the president is responsible, if he consults with those involved, if he makes it clear.

- 64 years ago, the Kennedy-Nixon debates were must-see TV.

But while the candidates were debating on camera, the campaigns were fighting over the temperature in the debate studio.

The Nixon people arrived first and turned down the thermostat, trying to keep a TV audience from seeing Nixon sweat, while JFK kept his cool.

This year, the Trump campaign is arguing for more debates and longer debates, with both candidates standing, not sitting, not sitting at a podium.

The Biden campaign wants earlier debates with no live audience and a mute button on the microphones for fewer interruptions.

But the real spin happens during and after the debate in a location backstage at every debate that's actually known as the spin room, with big names from both parties pressuring the media for positive coverage because, let's face it, most viewers and voters will only watch the highlights and the zingers on the news or on social media.

And we've all seen it before.

It only takes one stumble for a campaign to tumble.

Join us now to talk more about what happens behind the scenes at a presidential debate is a guy who's been there.

Chuck Todd is the chief political analyst for NBC News.

He moderated the first two Democratic presidential debates in 2020.

Chuck is also the former host of "Meet the Press," and he covered the White House during the Obama administration.

Chuck, it's great to see you again.

Thanks for being on "Unspun" right here in Charlotte, North Carolina.

- I love it.

We're flipping the roles here, brother.

- I expect you to stay within your time limits like you demanded of me on "Meet the Press."

Listen, give us kind of a behind-the-scenes account.

You've been a moderator of some major primary debates.

What are the major challenges of being a moderator?

- I think, well, look, I always look at it this way.

It's not becoming part of the debate, but you also need to make the debate go, right?

To me, it's like being a conductor of a symphony.

And I always viewed my...

I always knew if I did a good or a bad job at a debate by what paragraph in the AP story about the debate was my name mentioned.

And like, you know, it's sort of this way.

If you know the name of the umpire or a referee at a football game or a basketball game, it usually means they were too involved in the game.

And that's how I feel about moderators, right?

I was always like, look, it is not about...

If it ever becomes about the moderator, then you've already lost the debate, right?

That is, to me, winning the debate from the standpoint of the moderator is when you know where everybody watching it believes it was a debate between the two candidates and that the moderator was nothing more than a facilitator.

And that certainly always was my mindset going into these things, whether it was a debate that I moderated that you were involved in or a presidential primary.

- So we know what Trump and Biden are doing right now.

There are news programs over and over again about what Biden and Trump, they're practicing, having people imitate the other candidate, things of this nature.

- Right.

- What are the moderators doing right now?

What did you do before the debate?

For example, how did you come up with the questions?

Was it a committee decision?

Did the executives get involved, the producers get involved?

- So, yeah, the answer is yes, and it can be a really large operation.

I didn't like that as much personally.

I always try to keep my... You know, if I was a solo moderator, I try to keep the group small.

Obviously the more people involved, the larger the group gets.

Look, I'll give you a little behind the scenes.

We did something to this day I don't think will ever be duplicated, is we did back-to-back debates featuring 10 candidates two nights in a row, right, in those first primary debates of the 2020 cycle back in June of '19.

You know, we were in a room.

There was probably 20 people involved, and we were going through potential subject matter, questions, question wordings, research, you know, sort of sometimes, "Okay, let's see.

Is this a good debate question?"

And by the way, I throw that out there.

A lot of moderators, particularly first or second-time moderators, make the mistake of asking questions that belong in an interview, right?

You know, I always said... You know, I always got rid of any question that was directed at a specific candidate specific to anything sometimes because I was like, "No, no, no, no, no.

This is about how are you engaging everybody on that stage."

You had 10 people.

Maybe how are you engaging two or three candidates with your question.

If you start making it an interview question, and a lot of moderators made this mistake during the Republican primary debates of 2016- - [Pat] I agree.

- Where they were just, decided to interview Donald Trump, and everybody else was just sort of audience members.

That to me, that's not debate moderation.

That's just an interview in front of a bunch of other people.

- I've often said that a debate often becomes a press interview as opposed to a debate.

- It shouldn't be.

That's a failed debate.

If it's feels like an interview, it's a failed debate to me, you know?

And by the way, I also, and this will not, not everybody will agree with this.

I think you rarely should fact-check in a debate.

I'm not saying media shouldn't fact-check after a debate, but the moderator needs to be very careful when they insert themselves into a back-and-forth between two candidates because you can sound like you are saying, "You won this point.

You lost this point."

You're not the scorekeeper.

- I agree.

- You may wanna be it, but a good moderator shouldn't.

The scorekeeper is the audience at home.

- So, Chuck, what happens when a re-pivot by the candidate, which is, I've done a top five... What happens when the candidate re-pivots, and his answer is, "That's a lousy question.

It just shows you being out of touch or the media being out out touch," and makes you the questionnaire or your network part of the debate?

Do you respond, or do you just let them go on?

- So you let them go on, and to me, you've agreed to a certain parameters.

When you ask the question, they have their 90 seconds, two minutes, whatever.

I think it's pretty...

I think you're inserting yourself in the debate if you suddenly interrupt their time, right, that you have promised them in response to your question.

Look, I don't wanna...

I do everything I can not to get into a back-and-forth.

And what I will sometimes do, "Look, I understand you didn't like the question, but let me ask you again and then maybe rephrase the specific part.

I'm asking you to talk about this.

Will you please talk about this?"

And that's how... To me, that's the proper role of the moderator, which is, look, you know, which is try to ignore the personal attack and instead go back and reframe on the subject matter you were trying to ask about.

- Let me ask a quick soundbite, the best question for Trump coming up and the best question for Biden if you were the moderator.

Short and concise.

- Look, I think... Well, that's interesting.

You're putting me on the spot.

- Ah, I love doing this to you.

(laughs) - But to me, I care about, me personally, what are you gonna do to bring the country together?

You both failed to bring the country together.

On the issue of you defeating polarization, both of you have been failures.

What are you gonna do in your second term to bring this country together?

- That's a fair question, and you'd ask the same to both candidates.

- That's why I would direct it that way.

I'll give you a better one that I'm obsessed with.

- Okay.

- The next president is gonna be presiding over America's 250th birthday.

You know, what is the meaning of that birthday at 250, and what's the state of American democracy?

What's the message you plan to have about America's 250th anniversary, and what about your presidency will reflect that?

- We've seen some examples of the remaining minute of moderators losing control of the debate.

I think it happened with Wallace.

Candy Crowley kind of got involved in the debate with Romney and Obama about Russia.

What happens if you lose control of the debate?

Has it happened to you?

- I had a moment where I had a third-party candidate disrupt a debate.

It was in the most recent Virginia gubernatorial debate between Terry McAuliffe and Glenn Youngkin.

For whatever reason, the debate organizer gave a ticket to the Libertarian candidate.

And you're like, "Why did you give a ticket to a candidate that's mad that they cannot..." And shockingly, after I asked the first question, some loud person stands up.

Look, I would simply... You go to commercial.

We're gonna take a break.

- Ah.

- Because you don't... And that's what I would do.

We're gonna take a commercial break.

Sometimes you're taping these debates a couple hours in advance, and then they're airing later.

But you know, what I wanna do is I am...

It's the same reason why baseball announcers and football cameras don't show people streaking on the field whenever you get a fan that disrupts.

Because if you actually allow them to be a part of the debate- - [Pat] Yeah.

- Then you've actually, you're incentivizing them to do this again.

- Chuck, 30 seconds.

- I go to commercial.

- I got 30 seconds.

Who's gonna win this debate?

- Robert Kennedy, Jr. by not being on stage.

- Not being there, he wins the debate?

- Yeah, that's my guess.

- Now he's gotta get on the ballots though.

- He does, but I think people become Kennedy-curious.

I think the most likely reaction to this debate is, "Oh my God, really?"

- Wow, Chuck, that's a good way to end it.

Thanks so much for being on "Unspun."

- You got it, Pat.

- Now PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Unspun" on the street to hear your thoughts on this year's first face-off between President Biden and former President Trump.

- Yeah, here in Romare Bearden Park at Latta Arcade, we're finding out that the real debate is whether to watch or not to watch.

How closely will you be watching the debate?

- I probably won't be paying attention too much at all, to be honest.

- No, I'm not gonna watch it.

- I don't need to watch the debate to know who I'm voting for.

- [Jeff] When the president debates the president, will you be watching?

- I definitely will be watching.

- Gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night, so let's get going.

My first question to both of you tonight.

- It's kind of a TV show.

People are tuning in to kind of see the show, and whether you actually learn something from it, you know, it would seem that the last set of debates were more of a performance than anything about issues.

- The question is- - Your Supreme Court Justices, radical left.

- Will you shut up, man?

- Listen, who is on your list, Joe?

- This is absurd.

- [Chris] Gentlemen, I think- - This is so unprecedented.

- [Donald] He's gonna pack the court.

- No, no.

- Keep yapping, man.

- The people understand, Joe.

47 years you've done nothing.

They understand.

- All right.

- I think it's just a way to keep us at odds and ends, you know, and to keep us divided so people get riled up in their emotions.

- Emotions get votes.

I mean, I think it's good for them to be able to directly, you know, counter each other, talk to each other, agree on certain things, disagree on certain things.

It's really good that they put them on the spot.

I think people are just a lot more loud and a lot more emotional now versus what they used to be.

- People just buy in more into the theatrical aspect of it rather than the actual content.

- Yeah, I actually like the theatrics of it all.

Like I said, I like just the competitiveness of just bringing these two candidates together and just seeing how they tackle these different issues.

And, you know, it makes for good TV, and I think that's what also draws people into watching.

- What would you like to see change in a debate that would make you wanna watch it more?

- Let the people ask the questions.

- Yeah, what we're also hearing from folks about this upcoming first presidential debate is that nobody wants either candidate simply repeating the same old, same old from their campaign commercials.

What they're looking for are fair questions and honest answers from both candidates.

Pat.

- Thanks, Jeff.

What do you think about the issue?

Email us your thoughts on the politics of presidential debates to unspun@wtv.org.

(dramatic music) Tonight on our top five countdown, we've got the top five things politicians do to avoid answering questions in a debate.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, tell a long emotional story.

So no matter what question the moderator asks, just tell a story.

It can be an emotional story.

For example, "You know, that reminds me of meeting a couple last night on the campaign trail, and they told me about how they're working just to meet the common bills to pay every single day.

And it broke my heart hearing the story of this hardworking couple working four jobs among a man and a wife.

Oh, it was terrible."

Just change the story.

Number four, pivot quickly to campaign messages.

In other words, no matter what they ask about any issue, just change the topic and say, "I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna fight for you the American people on the issues that impact you the most," and just keep going.

Repeat your campaign themes that coincide with your TV commercials and any of brochures that you're mailing to the American people.

Number three, repeat the problem with statistics.

In other words, the question has to do about a major problem that the state or nation is facing.

What you do to kill time, especially if you don't have a real answer or a real solution, you just repeat statistics, repeating the problem, whether it be inflation or immigration or crime.

And then you never give an answer, but you let the audience know you understand the problem.

And number two, ugh, one of the best, attack the media.

In other words, if Chuck Todd asked me a question...

In fact, he did the debate against me and Roy Cooper.

If he asked me a question which I think would be unfair, I'd actually go, "Chuck, that shows, the question you asked shows how out of touch the media is with the American people."

And then you just say anything you like regarding your campaign message, but you attack the media because the media is actually lower in ranking and popularity than even politicians.

And number one, if you really don't have a good answer, just attack your opponent.

And the best re-pivot to your opponent is going and saying the following.

"I'll tell you what I'm not gonna do.

I'm not gonna do what my opponent has done for the past four years."

That's called How to Debate 101.

We'll see if it works coming up on the presidential debate between Biden and Trump.

(dramatic music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Unspun, One-on-One."

- I saw your top five, so I know how you're gonna try to avoid these questions.

- I will do my best.

(both laugh) - The questions come from the headlines and from this week's show topic.

I ask them.

You answer 'em.

Let's go.

- All right, let's have it.

- All right, speaking of the top five, all those things that you mentioned, you know, interrupting, avoiding the question, changing the subject, viewers don't like that.

So why do candidates keep doing it?

- Actually, viewers fall for it.

I'm sad to say, but it works if you're good at doing it.

If you're bad at doing it like telling a good story instead of answering the question, you'll fail miserably.

But if you do tell a good story, they'll remember the story and forget that you did not answer the question.

- The networks, you know, in this case, it's CNN coming up next week, later on it'll be ABC, why do they push so hard to do these debates when a lot of folks don't think they have as much impact as they used to?

- Well, two reasons.

One is money.

CNN is selling major advertising for this debate and because it's an early debate, and you've got two of the most polarized candidates in the United States history.

And second, it's a way to promote CNN.

They're in third or fourth place in the cable rating news, and they can promote the two people who are moderators for their show.

So they think longterm this might help their ratings because they're not showing their competition, whether it be Fox or MSNBC or some of the other cable networks.

- You mentioned it's an early debate.

Is it too early?

Is this too early in the campaign season to really have an impact, a debate now versus an election in November?

- Depends who wins.

If you lose the debate, it's too early.

- Right.

(laughs) - Yeah, so, it's never been done before.

Usually nothing happens before Labor Day.

Even commercials typically don't happen before Labor Day, so this is new to politics, having a debate this early, especially a TV debate this early.

So we're gonna find out.

One theory is this, that if Biden does poorly at the Democratic Convention, they might replace him.

- I guess the other reason you go earlier now than maybe in the past is because of mail-in voting and that sort of thing, which happens earlier as well.

- Yeah, but this is way early.

I mean, we're talking June, you know.

If this were early September, yeah, that makes sense, but not in June.

But it's a real risk for both Trump and Biden.

- So it's a rematch.

Everybody's kind of chosen upsize in this particular race, very polarized electorate.

In a polarized race, does a debate really matter?

Is it gonna change minds for folks that are tuning in?

- Yeah, especially if someone screws up.

If one of them does very poorly, acts poorly, stumbles, doesn't answer the questions, doesn't know their facts, has sound soundbites that are repeated over and over again that kill them, yeah, it can have a major impact but more on the negative sense than the positive sense.

But again, Biden and Trump are unique.

The standard is so low for both of them right now.

The benchmark is so low.

So they've set the benchmark so low.

If they go above their benchmark, it might swing five to 10% of the vote that are undecided.

You gotta remember 65% of the people don't want either candidate, so they may be the ones they need to talk to.

- So you've been in debates, gubernatorial debates, mayoral debates.

- Senate debates.

- How do you prepare?

How do you prepare for the issues, and how do you prepare for the moment when you're on stage?

I can't imagine that rehearsal is a whole lot like the real debate when the lights are on and the cameras are on.

- It isn't.

You can't replicate the real thing 'cause you don't have the nervousness.

You don't have the sweats as Nixon did during the '60 debate.

But what you need to do more than anything else is practice your intro and practice the ending.

You cannot wing that.

You've gotta have that down, the three points you wanna make in the intro and the three points you wanna make at the ending because that's what most people remember.

And you can have a great debate and then butcher the ending and not be prepared for it.

And it can impact the whole impression of the debate.

So those are the two parts that you need to practice.

But again, as what Chuck Todd and I said, it can become more of a press conference than a debate.

The question is will Biden and Trump really debate each other, and will the moderator, as Chuck Todd said earlier, try to get involved in the debate, and it becomes a debate between the candidates and the moderator?

Or will it be between the two of them?

That's gonna be the dynamic that I'm looking for.

- And that leads to another question I wondered about.

When you're face-to-face with your opponent for the first time or maybe one of the few times into the entire race, usually you're campaigning from afar, does it change how you ask the questions?

Are you- - Or answer the questions.

- Or answer the questions.

I mean, do you back off a little bit because the other person's standing right there, and the criticism's sometimes harsh?

- Well, you don't realize the candidates don't see each other much during the year.

They don't see each other.

In fact, I remember when debating Beverly Perdue in my first gubernatorial debate.

I looked over, and all of a sudden, she was taller than me.

You know, she's a very short person.

She's probably 5'2''.

Well, all of a sudden, her campaign put in a platform for her to step on.

And I went, "My gosh, that was good homework on their part."

We were totally unprepared for that.

So little things like that can make a difference.

But yeah, I typically would act the same way whether it be in person or not.

But you've gotta really be more concerned as how the TV audience responds.

And the trick of the trade is, and the thing you have to remember, is speak to the TV audience more than the audience in the auditorium.

And if you're in a studio, you've gotta learn how to speak to the camera.

And that's harder than it is than speaking to an audience.

And that's gonna be another interesting dynamic during this debate, is there's no live audience, and I think that hurts Trump.

- Because there's no one to feed off of?

- He feeds off it, and I get it.

I do better with an audience too because you can look at their nonverbals.

You can see how they're reacting.

You see if there's clapping or not.

You can tell when giving a speech.

But when it's just you and your camera, it's difference between being a movie and a stage play in New York.

- Yeah, you can't read the room if there's no room to read in the first place, I suppose, yeah.

- Excellent.

- Last quick question.

The fact-checks that Chuck Todd mentioned earlier, does that throw you off as a candidate when you're debating your opponent, and suddenly the third party is also challenging you over an answer or a question?

- It's not appropriate.

Chuck was right.

It may be appropriate on "Meet the Press," or in "This Week with George Stephanopoulos."

It's not appropriate during the debate.

That's the other debater's job, is to check the facts and then question them on the facts.

That's the way it should be.

It should be a debate between the two people, not the two people and the moderators.

- Yeah, it's amazing how much does go on behind the scenes that the folks watching at home on the night next week just will never see or never do see in these debates.

Thanks for kind of shining a light on that and helping us understand better what's gonna happen when the two candidates get together next week.

That's this week's "One-on-One," thanks.

(dramatic music) - This week in "Unspun, Unfiltered," I want to focus on a disturbing new trend in political campaigns.

And the trend is this, is to have as few debates as possible or no debates at all.

In fact, now campaign consultants are advising candidates not to debate if their client is either in the lead in the polls or if they have more money than their competition to run TV ads.

In fact, neither Donald Trump or Joe Biden agreed to participate in any debates during this year's primaries.

And right here in North Carolina during the last US Senate campaign, the Republican candidate, Ted Budd, skipped all three TV debates, so myself and the other candidates debated each other.

And guess who won the primary.

Guess who won the primary.

Now US Senator Ted Budd.

In past campaigns, it would have been political suicide to avoid debates in major elections.

But now it's the new normal for success with almost no negative ramifications for candidates playing chicken.

The reality is that most debates are glorified press conferences, and most voters do not watch them.

But when voters are denied an opportunity to see the candidates face-to-face before making their decisions on election day, that means most of the information voters...

Most of the information that voters get will come from distorted TV ads and biased political mailing brochures and 15-second soundbites on the nightly news.

It's as though we're now skipping the job interview in the hiring of our elected officials, and that's not good for our republic.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

Thanks for joining us.

I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of polling.

We'll talk with political polling experts about polling accuracy and polling bias.

That's on our next "Unspun," where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

Goodnight, folks.

(energetic upbeat music) (bright upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.