>>This week on NewsNight, Florida lawmakers consider whether to require local governments to ban homeless people from camping in public places.

It comes after the Orlando City Council last month voted to make it illegal for people to block or obstruct streets or sidewalks.

Plus, could Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings idea for a penny sales tax to pay for Transport's pension needs go back before voters in November.

NewsNight starts now.

[MUSIC] Hello, I'm Steve Mort and welcome to NewsNight, where we take an in-depth look at the top stories and issues in central Florida and how they affect all of us.

First tonight, Governor Ron DeSantis has thrown his support behind a move in the Florida legislature to ban sleeping or camping on public property without a permit as part of a strategy to deal with homelessness.

Between 2019 and now, data show a 75% increase in homelessness across Orange, Seminole and Osceola Counties.

The Homeless Services Network of Central Florida estimates more than 2200 people were unsheltered on any given night last year, and the number of people experiencing homelessness is on the rise everywhere.

According to figures from the US Department of Housing and Urban Development.

Nationwide, there was a 12% rise in homelessness between 2022 and 2023.

Florida saw one of the largest increases in that time 18 and a half percent.

But its per capita rate of homelessness remains lower than the national average.

The bill before legislators would require local governments to ban sleeping on public property like sidewalks, streets and parks without a permit, but allow municipalities to create places for homeless people to camp just as long as those locations fulfill several requirements.

Here's the sponsor of the Senate bill at a recent committee hearing.

>>The goal is to get individuals who have mental health issues, who have substance abuse issues, who are sleeping in public parks, public parks that we fund with a lot of money every single year here in Tallahassee, making sure that those public parks and those public spaces are used for what we intended.

And the individuals who have those mental health issues or substance abuse issues, instead of arresting them and just putting them in jail, trying to sift through and find those who have the ability to be rehabilitated, they can get the treatment, the care that they need from the services that the county, the state and not for profits are already providing in those counties, but in one location, instead of having to find individuals under individual bridges or in different corners of various parks scattered throughout the city or the county.

So we're hoping that this will not only make our public spaces more enjoyable for the vast majority of taxpayers and residents in the city and the county, but also get help faster and quicker to those who need the mental health and substance abuse services.

>>The bill's Senate sponsor, Jonathan Martin.

We'll talk more in a moment about the proposals.

But first, Krystal Knowles has been gathering reaction from homeless people and advocacy groups on the other side of the debate.

>>For Will Foreman, Lake Eola is a special place.

He spent his days and sometimes nights here.

It's a this view that attracts residents, tourists and homeless people alike.

>>I'm a formerly homeless drug addict.

I was homeless for three years here in Orlando, and I've found myself especially towards the tail end of my journey, spending a lot of time here, Lake Eola, resting, knowing it was a safe place where I could be.

>>Recently, Governor DeSantis endorsed a bill that aims to criminalize sleeping or camping in public, including parks.

The proposed legislation would allow for the establishment of homeless camps with security, sanitation and health services.

>>I take it as like kind of the dad tests, like can I just take my kids and just walk down the street to see shot?

You should be able to do that every place without having to worry about homeless or being accosted by somebody.

We're not going to let any city turn into a San Francisco, not on our watch.

We're not going to let that happen.

>>The Homeless Services Network of Central Florida CEO Martha Are says establishing homeless camps could have unintended consequences.

Instead, she wants lawmakers to provide funding for proper shelters to combat the affordable housing crisis.

>>There's a lot of concern.

Typically in shelters, we don't mix women with children, with single men.

We know that our unaccompanied youth are young 18, 19, 20 year old to 24 year olds.

They do better if they have their own place.

And so having one place where everybody is together is operationally significantly more challenging.

The challenge for any community that attempts this is that the legislation does say that it cannot be placed in a place, that it has a negative impact to a business or residence.

And so most most folks I talked to say that's likely to be an industrial area and it will be off of public transportation, which will then make it more challenging for people who are trying to move back into permanent housing.

Jasmine has been living on the streets since September and says she's not comfortable with the idea of sharing a confined space.

And she fears being far from the city.

>>That's not a good idea to have homeless camps where would we sleep, where would we get help from?

It'd be out of control.

A lot of crime, more crime would happen.

We won't be able to get help close by the area.

>>Eric Camarillo is the president of Salt Outreach, a nonprofit organization that provides a mobile showers and laundry services to Orlando's unhoused.

>>It seems like it's being approached as a one size fits all model, and there is no one size fits all.

Every person's experience is totally different.

You have people experiencing homelessness because of an eviction, because they lost their job.

You have people maybe with mental illness, maybe addiction, maybe domestic violence situations, maybe just a divorce.

You know, there's so many things.

And to group everyone in one place, there is no way that you can support a one size fits all approach in an encampment like that.

It's I don't even think it's possible, in my opinion, to be able to do that.

>>The bill to ban public camping and sleeping is advancing through the Florida legislature.

If it passes and signed by the governor, it would take effect on October 1st.

>>Krystal Knowles reporting there.

Well, let's bring in our panel now to break it all down.

Joining us in the studio this week, Stephen Hudak who covers local government for the Orlando Sentinel.

Thanks for being here, Steve.

>>Great to be here.

>>Good to see you.

Lillian Hernandez Caraballo who covers homelessness and housing issues for 90.7 MMFE News and Report for America.

Thanks for being here for the first time, Lillian.

>>Yes, thank you for having me.

>>Good to see you guys.

Let me start with you on this one, because it is very much your beat.

The governor says he doesn't want Florida cities to sort of become like San Francisco and other places, Seattle and so forth, which are experiencing high rates of homelessness for various complex reasons.

What are the main parts of this bill, though, that stand out to you?

>>So two main things about this bill that stand out to me is one of them has to be how far reaching it is.

It's very broad.

It is the state getting on municipalities telling cities and jurisdictions how to handle their unique homelessness needs in whatever way best fits them.

It's preempting these municipalities.

>>Sort of a one size fits all.

That's what we were hearing.

>>That is a really good way to put it.

Absolutely.

The second part of the bill that really sticks out to me is there's no funding.

It's asking for these very specific requirements and criteria, and then it provides no resources or funding for any to to make this happen for these municipalities.

>>The governor didn't talk much about the complex causes of homelessness, affordable housing, high rates of eviction, I guess since the pandemic for example.

What have you been hearing from your sources on that?

>>Advocates for people experiencing homelessness appreciate the state looking into issues of sanitation and security and order.

However, the way that it has been addressed as like this monolithic issue, right, with issues of mental health and drug use like Martha Are from the Homeless Services Network of Central Florida, says we didn't just all of a sudden get a bunch of people moving here with mental health issues and drug use.

There is another aspect to this, which is a financial component, right?

The state of our current economy.

And to have the conversation without that, just grouping these issues of mental health and drug use as a monolith, and then following a narrative that guides that into criminal activity and sanitation as if it's all one of the same problem while ignoring the financial landscape.

I mean, at best you're going to get solutions that might fall short because you're not taking a holistic approach that looks at everything.

>>That's what the critics are saying.

I mean, the governor has proposed funding for homeless shelters, substance abuse and mental health treatment.

So that clearly is a desire to try to tackle those issues.

What the critics are saying is that it's one size fits all, which is something we saw in Krystal's piece.

>>Yes.

And it's a slightly outdated approach.

There's a lot of things that advocates are doing right now that has been proven to house people long term with I believe it's a 90% retention rate on the people that they house.

So the people out there working with the people experiencing homelessness know what works.

They they know what they're doing and they're asking for resources and funding to continue doing that work.

Whereas loss like this could inadvertently have unintended consequences of diverting funding to the wrong places.

>>I mean, do they look at places like San Diego, which seem to be doing similar things?

I mean, they have a safe sleeping program.

They have shuttle busses that take people into the the downtown.

They have these health services.

I mean, there are other places that are that are doing things like this.

>>Well, yes.

And, you know, when it comes to the Florida Senate and the Florida House, the legislature, they are doing what they feel best fits Florida.

And there probably is a good intention here of keeping some sort of safety and an order and a sanitation, a certain level, a certain standard that they want to see in Florida.

However, again, it's not one size fits.

All right.

So certain cities might benefit from taking approaches like San Diego or whatnot.

And they may have the resources, they may have the plans, they may have the will, the willingness of community to help with these things.

Some places may not.

Right.

And they may need something else.

So, yes.

What critics are saying is that it's not taking a holistic approach, is not providing resources, and it's not looking at other alternatives.

And taking this approach could end up in inadvertently having adverse effects such as like arrests and criminalizing homelessness.

>>Well, let's talk a little bit about the local government part of this.

I mean, Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings, Steve says he's his administration is doing a lot to help with things like affordable housing.

One of the causes of homelessness these days.

How do local leaders here think they're doing when it comes to dealing with this issue?

>>You know, that's a really good question.

I would I would tell you that they think they're doing a lot, but they need to do more.

That's I think they would all say they would agree with that.

I think Orange County put $5 million into homelessness issues services this year.

And they also tried it, increased funding for mental health services.

That's been part of that because that that is part of it.

It's I agree with you.

It's not a monolithic thing, but that's an issue.

So I think even the government leaders would tell you they're doing a lot, but they would also tell you we need to do a lot more.

>>Interesting.

Well, let's talk more about local governments that are already passing rules that could affect homeless people in Orlando.

The council voted last month to pass an ordinance to amend the city code's definition of disorderly conduct to include sitting or lying on sidewalks.

The definition reads as follows: Any person who walks stands sits lies or places an object in such a manner as to intentionally block passage by another person, or to require another person to take evasive action to avoid physical contact, or who, after being ordered to move by law enforcement officers, remains in or on any public street or sidewalk in such a manner as to block or impair movement of vehicles or pedestrians.

Those violating the provision can be fined up to $500 or jailed for up to 60 days.

Critics say it's unclear and will be used to target homeless people or even protesters.

Supporters don't agree.

>>Some people suggested that this is aimed specifically at our homeless population.

I don't buy that.

But you want to speak to that.

>>It is not.

If anything, it is far more likely to be used in situations during the busy closing times-- >>Friday and Saturday.

>>In downtown Orlando as the bars are letting out and closing.

>>If you're breaking the law, you're breaking the law.

Rather, if you are a multimillionaire or you're homeless, we all have to follow the law.

>>All it's really going to do is address trying to disappear people like me who are just like I said, my only crime is not having good credit, so I can't get an apartment or rent a house.

>>The big language leaves room for interpretation that has the potential to be used for harm.

And also if the concern is aggressive or violent behavior, which I understand that that can be scary as a woman.

Why does the bill not pardon me, the ordinance, not address aggressive behaviors with that language?

Why is it walking, laying, standing or sitting?

That's the list of behaviors.

That's what I don't understand.

>>Well, that ordinance passed by six votes to one.

Okay, Lillian, there there is disagreement clearly over the intention of this Orlando ordinance.

Let's start with those who support it.

Why do they say it's necessary to add that language on sitting and lying on sidewalks?

>>Well, it's interesting that you say that, because the language about whether you can sit lie or stand on a sidewalk blocking the way already exists and the Chapter 43 of the court of ordinances, it's just the difference between that ordinance and the new one is that this one does not limit it to downtown Orlando.

And the old ordinance actually provides a safe passage, if you can affirm a defense as in like, Hey, I'm tired, I'm - Age, sickness, emergency, whatever.

I'm waiting in line.

I'm waiting to get a meal, waiting to go into shelter.

The new law doesn't provide any of those salvation.

So when you hear people asking for language is because the law just says you can't be on the sidewalk and it doesn't provide a whole lot more than that.

So at least a law very open to interpretation.

And-- >>Which is one of the things we heard there in that city council meeting.

Commissioner Regina Hill, who represents paramour, says this ordinance should be applied equally right, including to homeless people.

She represents sort of a part of the city, I guess that's seen a large increase in the amount of homelessness and unhoused unsheltered people.

Is that simply because there are a lot of homeless services in that area?

>>Homeless services usually follow people where the need is, so it used to be that people would have to take long busses to get to the Department of Vision, to the office of that for resources.

But we've noticed that people who lack the means for transportation may not be able to do that and to make it easier for them.

Now organizations do go to where the need is.

That does then may cause a concentration, but this is not uncommon in places of where there's low income.

As far as why we need the law and why proponents propose it, it depends on who you ask.

The law itself, the ordinance cites it's for pedestrian safety.

But then the city council, they said it's for bar fights and for people for drunkenly disorder outside.

Commissioner Patty Sheehan said, is to protect women.

Regina Health said it should be used on people experiencing homelessness.

So it really it's very broad and nothing has been made very explicit on the law as to why we're.

>>Depends who you ask, as you say.

I mean Mayor Dyer, Steve, has talked about the unequal burden on some parts of his city when it comes to homelessness.

I mean, what do leaders see in terms of solutions to that problem?

>>Well, that's hard because the shelters do seem to be clustered in paramore that that part of the city and the people are homeless all over.

So I think probably they they have to consider having shelters in each of the county commission districts.

I'm sure that's not a popular thing for any of the commissioners, but that spreads it out a little bit more.

The other thing that I think the Mayor Dyer has said is that originally Seminole County, Osceola County, Lake County, they have to share in this burden.

They have to they have to help, too.

>>Let me just ask you about a move now to repeal this language already.

This is only just passed right in January.

Tell us about that effort in Orlando this year.

>>Yeah, there is a lot of local organizations who have gotten together and they have organized a movement to try to repeal the law, saying they are they say it automatically is going to be used to target homelessness.

But they are afraid it's also going to be targeting protesters and they don't appreciate the vagueness in the law.

The and as they say to the city council, once you guys are long gone, these laws are still going to be carried out for perpetuity and by whom.

And if there's no intention codified in there, then and then another thing about the law is that it is based on intention who purposely puts their things to block passage if they're asked to leave and they don't move.

So you would have to prove intention of this person to not let people pass, which is a something very difficult to prove in law intention.

Right.

So it is a in just as many ways they're seeing it as a violation of just basic First Amendment rights and they're seeing it as a repressive law.

So they're looking to repeal it.

>>Important to note, of course, that Orlando is not the only jurisdiction that's doing this.

Of course, Miami Beach, where the governor gave his endorsement to the legislation, has has a pretty aggressive policy, as does Altamonte Springs and some other places in central Florida as well.

So interesting story.

And we'll we'll keep across it here on NewsNight.

And I'm sure you guys will as well.

You can find a link to the proposed legislation being debated by lawmakers in Tallahassee, as well as the amendment to Orlando's disorderly Conduct Ordinance.

On our website, you'll also find a link to the homeless and unsheltered figures from HUD's there, too.

It's all at wucf.org/newsnight.

Okay.

Finally tonight, the penny sales tax for transportation is back on the political agenda in Orange County.

Mayor Demings says he's hopeful he can get commissioners to support putting the proposal on the November ballot for a do over.

Two years ago, nearly 60% of voters rejected adding a $0.01 per dollar sales tax to pay for transportation infrastructure and several Orange County commissioners say they see it as unlikely the result will be different this time.

Some say the time that will be spent on putting the issue to voters will be better spent on other priorities, such as Orange County's Comprehensive Plan known as Vision 2050.

>>So that we can get these issues that we have that's causing our transportation and traffic issues solved and have better smart, smart growth planning for the future.

And I think after we have that in place, I think there'll be more trust.

We have to build that trust and more confidence in the county to be able to then ask for a transportation sales tax to pay for some of these deficits, knowing that we have a better plan for the future.

>>Consistently.

What the residents in my neck of the woods shared with me was that they never really got an understanding of how this would benefit them.

And they continue to share with me.

Even now that they're hurting, that the cost of living continues to go up, inflation is going up.

Our millage has been steady, but property values are going up.

So they're continuing to pay more.

>>I went to look at the numbers in my district because I know it failed by 58% in my district.

It actually failed between 59 to 64%.

So there must have been other areas in the county that fared better.

But clearly the residents that live in my district did not support this measure.

>>Mayra, Uribe there.

Okay, Steve, let me start with you on this one.

That meeting last week was essentially to gauge interest, right on on putting this penny sales tax back on the ballot.

Did there seem to be much interest in the commission?

Didn't sound like it to me.

>>That's what I heard.

I heard just what you heard.

I think there's apprehension because it got trounced.

It gets it's got a butt kicked.

And I don't know how much it's changed now.

I think the mayor would tell you conditions have changed.

We don't have roaring inflation anymore.

People have somewhat recovered from hurricane and COVID is more in our rearview mirror.

So those things are sort of better.

But inflation is still there.

If you don't think so, go grocery shopping.

I mean, you know, the food prices are high.

I hear from people all the time that it's it's difficult.

I think there's not much of an appetite on the board to do this.

But we'll see.

>>And we saw numbers, of course, this week showing that that inflation on the national level is maybe not declining as much as people hope.

And and Florida, of course, is a has been experiencing a higher rate of inflation than other parts of the country.

Let me switch gears to another tax issue the Orange County Commission has voted on recently was the allocation of tourist development tax dollars cutting back funding for Visit Orlando.

I mean, what is the extent of that budget cut, Steve, for that tourism promotion agency?

I mean, did it go as far as some people wanted?

>>So Visit Orlando gets 30% of tourist development tax money.

That was over $100 million last year.

Some commissioners.

Commissioner Barnier.

Commissioner Uribe have said specifically that's too much money to market an area that already has Disney pushing itself, Universal pushing itself, and it's the destinations pretty well known.

But there are other things that are related to that.

But they wanted to see that 30% cut to 25%.

What it happened instead was the mayor came up with a plan that said, let's leave the 30% intact and we'll take 10 million off the top that Visit Orlando would get.

And we're going to give it to this sports incentive committee annually.

That's to try to bring in Marquee soccer games, marquee football games, other events that draw draw tourists, draw visitors.

The other 5 million, they said we're going to give 5 million a year.

Take this off, Visit Orlando's plate and give it to what's called ARC, the application review committee.

And that is a group that provides money to arts organizations to make capital improvements that also bring in people of Harriet's Ballet in Loch Haven.

They actually had given money to for the One Pulse Museum.

They gave money to the Science Center, to the Regional History Center.

So those things Visit Orlando may have done that anyway.

So there are people who think, well, we didn't cut them at all.

>>Yeah.

Let me just ask you a little bit about some of your reporting.

We don't have a huge amount of time to go into this and we'll put a link up to a story you wrote this week.

Orange County's lobbyist had pressed for wording in draft legislation by Orlando Senator Linda Stewart that would have reduced the county's power over Visit Orlando.

Things like it just did.

What did you learn and what's been the reaction?

>>Well, the reaction has been anger from people in Orange County government.

They say their lobbyist, Chris Carmody with Craig Robinson, had a duty to represent their interests and one of Orange County, not one of the top priority for Orange County government in the legislature is to protect home rule could not be preempted to let them make their own decisions.

And this law, which is dead by this bill, which is dead, by the way, would have removed would have restricted what the commissioners could do.

>>Lillian, just finally, I mean, there has been pressure on and off the Commission on spending TDT money on other priorities.

And one of those priorities is often talked about is affordable housing.

I mean, the mayor and others have told me that this kind of hands are tied when it comes to where TDT money can be spent.

But what do people in the affordable housing space tell you about how TDT money could be deployed to help them.

>>In these meetings one thing that has been heard a lot is from specifically two called the chamber.

They said the county the commission is focused too much on turning a profit.

Right.

And they say that some of this money could actually be used to invest in the community in other ways that could return not a profit, but return better results.

And so they're saying the way that the county is using the money, the way the county sees the use of tax dollars should be perhaps broadened into including other alternatives.

>>Well, we'd like to hear what you think about anything you've heard on the program tonight.

Be sure to join the conversation on social media, we're at WUCF TV, on Facebook, X, and also on Instagram.

And that is all the time we have for this week.

My thanks to Steve Hudak from the Orlando Sentinel.

Thanks for being here, Steve.

Lillian Hernandez Caraballo from 90.7 WMFE News and Report for America.

Thank you so much for coming in, guys.

Great discussion today.

We'll see you next Friday night at 8:30 here on WUCF.

From all of us here at NewsNight, take care and have a great week.