FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.

AND THE NEEPER NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAMMING FUND FOR KNME-TV.

AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO InFOCUS, IS THE STATE OVERDUE FOR A MEGAFIRE?

A DECADE ON FROM LAS CONCHAS, 'OUR LAND' LOOKS AT THE FUTURE OF FORESTS.

>> THE CONDITION OF OUR FORESTS MATTERS TO EVERY NEW MEXICAN, WHETHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT.

>> Gene: PLUS, FARMERS AND GROWERS MARKETS ARE BACK, ALONG WITH SOME PERMANENT PANDEMIC INNOVATIONS.

NEW MEXICO InFOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

IT'S BEEN GREAT FOR OUR PRODUCERS AND PHOTOGRAPHERS TO GET BACK IN THE FIELD OVER THE PAST MONTH OR SO, AND WE'RE EXCITED TO BE ABLE TO SHARE MORE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AS WE EMERGE FROM THE PANDEMIC.

WE'LL ALSO CONTINUE OUR LOOK AT THE ABQ HOME FOR LIFE PROGRAM.

THE CITY IS TRYING TO ATTRACT NEW RESIDENTS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE, BUT THEY'LL BE COMING INTO AN ALREADY CROWDED HOUSING MARKET.

THE LINE OPINION PANEL WEIGHS IN ON UFOs FOR REAL AFTER SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH WEIGHED IN ON AN UPCOMING REPORT FROM THE PENTAGON.

THE GROUP ALSO EXPLORES POLARIZING POLITICAL PICS FOR THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE THAT SUPPOSED TO BE A BETTER WAY FORWARD.

WE BEGIN WITH THE UNANIMOUS SUPREME COURT DECISION ON WHAT THE STATE DOES NOT OWE TO BUSINESSES.

>> Gene: IT WAS FIVE MONTHS AGO THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HEARD ORAL ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE STATE SHOULD PAY BUSINESSES BACK FOR SOME OF THE FINANCIAL SACRIFICES MADE DUE TO GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM'S PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER.

THERE WERE ROUGHLY 20 LAWSUITS FILED STATEWIDE BY BUSINESSES ASKING FOR COMPENSATION, BUT THE SUPREME COURT WAS IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT THAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH ORDER WAS AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO A PANDEMIC OUTBREAK AND ONE THAT NEEDED NO COMPENSATION PAID TO AFFECTED BUSINESSES.

HERE WITH US TO DISCUSS IT ALL ARE THIS WEEK'S LINE OPINION PANELISTS, STARTING WITH REGULAR AND ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN.

ALSO LINE REGULAR AND ALSO AN ATTORNEY, WE WELCOME BACK LAURA SANCHEZ.

AND ROUNDING OUT OUR ZOOM ROUNDTABLE IS FORMER STATE SENATOR AND LINE REGULAR DIANE SNYDER.

SOPH, THE UNDERLYING COURT QUESTION, I WANT TO START HERE, WAS WHETHER OR NOT THE RESTRICTIONS PLACED ON THOSE BUSINESSES, THINGS LIKE CAPACITY LIMITS OR REDUCED HOURS OF OPERATION, WAS THAT EQUIVALENT TO A GOVERNMENT TAKING?

WHY WAS THIS A LEGAL ARGUMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> Sophie: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN -- AND LET ME POINT OUT, THERE HAVE BEEN THREE CASES THAT SORT OF CIRCLE AROUND THIS ISSUE OF CAN THE GOVERNOR DO THE THINGS THAT SHE HAS DONE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

YOU KNOW, THREE CASES, AND THE COURT ITSELF MENTIONS THAT IN ITS RULING, THAT THIS IS THE THIRD.

THE ISSUE HERE, I THINK, IS THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO FIND A WAY IN, THEY'RE TRYING DIFFERENT THEORIES, AND AT LEAST AT THIS POINT THEY KEEP GETTING KNOCKED DOWN.

YOU KNOW, REALLY THE THRESHOLD QUESTION HERE FOR THE COURT WAS REASONABLENESS.

ARE THE MEASURES THAT ARE TAKEN BY THE GOVERNOR REASONABLE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE GLOBAL PANDEMIC, AND THAT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY LOW BAR.

THE COURT, IN ITS ANALYSIS, IS JUST LOOKING FOR, WAS THIS ARBITRARY?

WAS THIS CAPRICIOUS?

WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, LIKE NO RELATIONSHIP, OR JUST A SPURIOUS RELATIONSHIP TO THE PANDEMIC ITSELF?

THAT'S PRETTY -- IT'S PROVING TO BE PRETTY HARD FOR PLAINTIFFS TO OVERCOME THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION.

ONCE THE COURT DETERMINES, NO, THIS MAKES A KIND OF SENSE, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE, LIKE, PERFECT, YOU JUST DON'T REALLY GET TO GO MUCH FURTHER, AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THESE CASES, THESE 20 CASES.

>> Gene: LAURA, INTERESTINGLY THERE'S A QUOTE HERE THAT THE COURT FOUND THE BROADER INTERPRETATION FAVORED BY THE BUSINESS OWNERS WHO FILED, QUOTE, 'WOULD LEAD TO AN ABSURDITY; UNLIMITED LIABILITY AUTHORIZED BY THE LEGISLATURE.'

I THOUGHT THAT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING.

BUT DID THESE FOLKS NOT HAVE A LEGITIMATE GRIPE AT SOME LEVEL?

I KNOW THEY TRIED IN THE LOWER COURTS AND THE GOVERNOR WANTED THE SUPREME COURT TO JUST KIND OF FIGURE THIS ALL OUT, BUT KIND OF TAKE IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW.

WHAT WAS THE ARGUMENT HERE?

>> Laura: SO, THERE'S A LAW THAT WAS ENACTED IN 2003 THAT PERMITS COMPENSATION.

AND I'M GOING TO MESS UP WHAT THE NAME OF IT IS.

BUT IT'S LIKE A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY RECOVERY ACT, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> Gene: I THINK YOU GOT IT RIGHT.

RESPONSE; THAT'S RIGHT.

EMERGENCY RESPONSE, THAT'S IT.

ALMOST.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

AND IT ALLOWS COMPENSATION TO CERTAIN MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENTS -- BUILDINGS, FOR EXAMPLE -- IN THE COURSE OF A PUBLIC EMERGENCY.

AND THE INTENT OF THAT LEGISLATION -- I BELIEVE THE SENATOR MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SENATOR THEN, EVEN, IN 2003, OR MAYBE VERY SOON AFTER.

BUT IN ANY EVENT, THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT, THE PURPOSE WAS TO COMPENSATE ANY KIND OF BUILDINGS THAT HAD BEEN COMMANDEERED, LET'S SAY, LET'S USE THE TERM COMMANDEERED BY THE STATE, WHO HAD USED THE STATE'S LET'S CALL THEM POLICE POWERS, AND THESE ARE ALL CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS FOR ANYONE WHO'S A BUDDING LAWYER OR A CURRENT LAW STUDENT.

YOU'LL LOVE THIS, BECAUSE YOU'LL GET THIS.

BUT POLICE POWERS, BASICALLY THE STATE WOULD USE ITS POWERS FOR THE PUBLIC WELFARE, AND THEY COULD TAKE THESE BUILDINGS TEMPORARILY, IS THE IDEA, BUT THEY WOULD USE THEM TO DEAL WITH THIS PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY, OR THIS EMERGENCY OF SOME SORT.

AND SO WHAT THE BUSINESSES SAID WAS, WELL, BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE IN THERE, THAT IT SAYS OR RELATED PROPERTY, OR I THINK IT SAYS OR ANY OTHER PROPERTY, THEY TOOK THAT TO MEAN ANY OTHER BUSINESS THAT HAD PROPERTY SHOULD ALSO BE COMPENSATED.

SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE LEGAL ARGUMENTS THEY WERE USING.

AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS THE PART THAT SHANNON, JUSTICE BACON, SHANNON BACON, IN HER OPINION HAD WRITTEN.

IT'S THEIR OPINION, OF COURSE, BUT SHE AUTHORED IT.

WAS THAT THAT WOULD LEAD TO AN ABSURDITY, THE IDEA THAT THE LEGISLATURE WOULD HAVE ENACTED SOMETHING THAT SAID, ANYBODY COULD BE COMPENSATED FOR ANY POTENTIAL WHAT WOULD BE A TAKING UNDER THAT LAW.

THEN THE STATE WOULD BE ON THE HOOK FOR AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT.

SO THAT WAS THE ABSURDITY THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

OF COURSE, THE OTHER PART OF THAT, TOO, WAS THAT IN A BASIC TAKING ARGUMENT, YOU'RE BASICALLY ROOTING THAT AGAIN CONSTITUTIONALLY UNDER THE 5th AMENDMENT AS IT APPLIES TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, AND THEN IT GETS APPLIED TO THE STATE THROUGH THE 14th AMENDMENT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

BUT THE IDEA IS THAT THE STATE TAKES SOMETHING WITHOUT COMPENSATION, RIGHT, TAKES PRIVATE PROPERTY WITHOUT JUST COMPENSATION, AND THEY'RE ARGUING THAT HAVING SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN COST THEM ECONOMICALLY.

AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD NOT ARGUE THAT.

I MEAN, YES, THERE'S BEEN DEFINITE IMPACT.

BUT I THINK WHAT THE COURT HAS SAID, AND I THINK THEY'RE CORRECT LEGALLY, BASICALLY THEY'RE SAYING, WELL, BUT THERE WAS A HIGHER REASON, THERE WAS A BIGGER PURPOSE, AND THAT WAS THE SAFETY OF PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO.

EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE BUSINESSES AND THEIR EMPLOYEES, BUT JUST EVERYBODY PUBLICALLY TO BE SAFE FROM THIS DISEASE.

>> Gene: RIGHT, RIGHT.

SENATOR, INTERESTINGLY THE ATTORNEY REPRESENTING A LOT OF THOSE BUSINESSES IS VOWING TO APPEAL TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

DO YOU THINK IT'S INEVITABLE, I MEAN, THIS QUESTION ENDS UP THERE GIVEN THERE'S OTHER STATES GOING THROUGH THE SAME THING?

ARE WE GOING TO BE THE BELLWETHER KIND OF CASE HERE?

>> Sen. Snyder: I THINK IT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.

I THINK FOR ME, THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY.

I CAN UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC AND THE THINGS THAT OUR LADIES HAVE SHARED WITH US, AND THE THINGS I'VE READ.

HOWEVER, I LOOKED AT SEVERAL OF THESE, LIKE THE PAYCHECK PROTECTION PROGRAM, IT WAS A LOAN, BUT IT WAS FORGIVABLE.

SO THAT MEANS IT WAS GOING TO BE A GRANT.

AND THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHERS ALONG THAT WAY THAT ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO RETURN, IT'S EITHER A GRANT OR A FORGIVABLE LOAN.

SO THE FEDS HAVE SAID THESE REGULATIONS DO COST, AND THEREFORE, THE BUSINESSES ARE ENTITLED TO SOME KIND OF COMPENSATION FOR THEM.

AT LEAST THAT'S HOW I SEE IT.

AND THEN THE SECOND THING I HEAR SO MUCH HERE IN NEW MEXICO IS THE FACT OF THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL DISCRIMINATION IN WHAT IS APPLIED TO SOME STORES AND WHAT IS NOT APPLIED TO OTHERS, AND A PERFECT EXAMPLE, OF COURSE, AND A BIG ARGUMENT IS THE BIG BOX STORES.

THEY WERE ALLOWED TO BE LEFT OPEN, BUT I HAVE FRIENDS THAT WERE A SMALL BUSINESS, AND THEY WERE FLAT OUT CLOSED FOR THREE MONTHS.

AND THEN THEY WERE ALLOWED TO GO OUT ON THE SIDEWALK WHEN A CUSTOMER CAME AND SHOW THE PRODUCT THEN AND SELL, BUT IT WAS A DEVASTATING, DEVASTATING CRASH TO THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

SO I SEE THAT AS, OKAY, IF IT'S GOOD FOR ONE, THEN IT MUST BE GOOD FOR THE OTHER.

AND IT BOILS DOWN, THEN, TO ME AND TO MANY PEOPLE WITH SMALL BUSINESSES, THE GOVERNOR MADE THOSE DECISIONS ACTING ON THIS AS THE STATE, AND THEREFORE, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO COMPENSATION.

AND THAT'S JUST LOOKING AT IT FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

BUT THEY FEEL VERY MUCH PUT UPON AND DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYONE ARGUE ABOUT THE HEALTH ISSUE OF CLOSING AND REDUCING THE INTERACTION OF CITIZENS, BUT ON THE OTHER POINT -- >> Gene: SENATOR, LET ME SLIP IN.

I'M UNDER A MINUTE HERE ON THIS SEGMENT, LET ME JUST GET TO SOPHIE REAL QUICK ON SOMETHING.

THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE IS, MAYBE APPROPRIATELY SO, MAKING THE CASE THAT THEY'VE ROLLED OUT LOTS OF PROGRAMS FOR LOTS OF MONEY FOR THESE BUSINESSES, AND MAYBE THAT SHOULD BE WHERE WE SHOULD BE GOING.

ARE THEY COVERED BECAUSE OF THAT HERE?

I MEAN, THERE'S MONEY AVAILABLE.

>> Sophie: I'M NOT SURE THAT THE TWO ARE REALLY RELATED.

AND GOING TO DIANE'S POINT, THEY MAY BE RELATED IN OUR MINDS AND IN THE HEALTH OF THOSE BUSINESSES, BUT THIS RULING REALLY HINGES ON ISSUES OF, IS THIS A TAKING.

THERE ARE FINER LEGAL POINTS.

AND SO I THINK THAT RESPONDING WITH, LOOK AT ALL THIS MONEY THAT WE'VE PROVIDED, THAT'S NOT THE RESPONSE YOU NECESSARILY WIN ON IN THE COURT, BUT IT IS, I THINK, AN ATTEMPT TO GIVE A COMPELLING RESPONSE IN THE PUBLIC.

>> Laura: CAN I JUST MENTION ONE QUICK THING?

I KNOW YOU'RE UNDER TEN SECONDS HERE.

BUT ONE THING ABOUT THE APPEAL THAT THE ATTORNEY, BLAIR DUNN, KEEPS SAYING HE'S GOING TO TAKE TO THE SUPREME COURT, YOU CAN'T JUST TAKE SOMETHING TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

YOU CAN APPEAL SOMETHING TO THE STATE SUPREME COURT, AND THAT'S YOUR APPEAL.

THAT'S YOUR ONE SORT OF APPEAL.

WHEN YOU APPLY TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, THEY HAVE TO ISSUE A WRIT OF CERTIORARI.

SO BASICALLY, THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE TO TAKE A CASE, AND THEY'LL ONLY DO THAT, TYPICALLY, THEY'LL ONLY DO THAT WHEN THEY HAVE MULTIPLE CASES FROM ALL OTHER STATES -- OR ALL OTHER CIRCUITS, REALLY, AND IN SOME CASES THE STATES, COMING UP, AND IT'S A HUGE NATIONAL ISSUE.

IF IT'S JUST SORT OF AN INDIVIDUAL CASE SOMEWHERE, THEY MAY CHOOSE NOT TO TAKE IT, OR THEY MAY WAIT UNTIL OTHER CASES PERHAPS COME UP AND THEN DEAL WITH IT.

>> Gene: THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT.

I'M GLAD YOU GOT THAT IN, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT.

I HAVE TO STOP THE CLOCK THERE, I'M AFRAID.

THIS GROUP IS BACK IN A FEW MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS.

THEY'VE BEEN PART OF NEW MEXICO'S LORE FOR DECADES, BUT A NEW PENTAGON REPORT SAYS THERE’S MORE THE MILITARY CAN’T EXPLAIN THAN WHAT IT CAN.

BEFORE THAT, LAURA PASKUS AND 'OUR LAND' RETURN AFTER A QUICK BREAK.

>> Mike: I DON'T THINK ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND ECONOMIC GROWTH IS INHERENTLY OPPOSITIONAL TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

SO I THINK WHAT THE CITY IS DOING IS ACTUALLY KIND OF AN INTERESTING IDEA, AND I THINK A PRETTY INNOVATIVE IDEA.

>> Laura: I'M LAURA PASKUS.

WE ALL KNOW HOW WILDFIRES ARE AFFECTING OUR FORESTS.

WE SEE THIS ACROSS THE STATE FROM THE GILA NATIONAL FOREST TO THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

AND ACROSS THE WEST WILDFIRE SEASON IS GETTING LONGER AND OUR WILDFIRES BIGGER.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE'S EVEN MORE IMPACT: DROUGHT, INSECT INFESTATIONS AND MORE.

ON THIS MONTH'S EPISODE OF 'OUR LAND,' WE LEARN HOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS AFFECTING OUR FORESTS AND WE LOOK AHEAD TO THE FUTURE.

>> Laura: IN JUNE 2011, A MASSIVE WILDFIRE IGNITED AND ERUPTED IN THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

IN ALL, LAS CONCHAS BURNED 156,000 ACRES, INCLUDING ABOUT HALF OF THE PUEBLO OF SANTA CLARA'S WATERSHED.

DANIEL DENIPAH, FORESTRY DIRECTOR AT THE PUEBLO, REMEMBERS THAT SUMMER.

JUST BEFORE LAS CONCHAS, HE WAS HERE IN SANTA CLARA CANYON.

>> Daniel: WE WERE UP HERE CONSULTING WITH GOVERNOR DASHENO AT THE TIME, AND WE WERE ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THE FOREST CONDITIONS BECAUSE IT WAS SO DRY OUT HERE, AND WE HAD ALMOST 100% WHAT WE CALL PROBABILITY OF IGNITION.

>> Laura: THE FOREST WAS PARCHED, HOT, AND WHEN A POWER LINE THROUGH THE SANTA FE NATIONAL FOREST BLEW OVER, THE FIRE BLAZED INTO ACTION LIKE NO ONE HAD SEEN BEFORE.

LAS CONCHAS BURNED INCREDIBLY HOT AND FAST.

IN ITS FIRST 14 HOURS, IT SCORCHED MORE THAN 43,000 ACRES.

THAT'S ONE ACRE PER MINUTE.

>> Daniel: YOU CAN SEE THOSE IMPACTS FROM THE FIRE AND THE SEVERITY, WHICH THEY WERE REALLY HIGH SEVERITY BURNS, AND WE'RE SEEING LIMITED GROWTH.

>> Laura: 16,000 ACRES OF SANTA CLARA BURNED.

SOILS WERE SUPER HEATED.

THEY BECAME HARD, LIKE CONCRETE.

ALL OF THE FISH DIED IN SANTA CLARA CREEK, A TRIBUTARY OF THE RIO GRANDE.

AND AFTER THE FIRE CAME DANGEROUS FLOODS THAT RIPPED APART THE FLOOD PLAIN.

TODAY, ASPENS AND OAKS ARE COMING UP WHERE CONIFERS ONCE GREW, AND THE PUEBLO HAS PLANTED ABOUT 800,000 SEEDLINGS LIKE PONDEROSA PINES AND DOUGLAS FIRS.

IN SOME SPOTS, THOUGH, THOSE SPECIES THAT GREW HERE IN THE PAST JUST CAN'T SURVIVE IN THIS WARMING WORLD.

BUT DENIPAH SAYS IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP CONNECTIONS WITH THOSE FORESTS OF THE PAST.

>> Daniel: IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE PRESERVE AS MUCH AS WE CAN, BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE TREES ARE SACRED TO THE PEOPLE.

THEY'VE BEEN A PART OF THEIR LIVELIHOOD AND A PART OF THEIR TRADITION AND THEIR CULTURE, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO MAKE SURE THAT IT TRIES TO COME BACK AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

>> Laura: LAURA McCARTHY IS THE NEW MEXICO STATE FORESTER.

IN HER ROLE, SHE BRINGS VARIOUS AGENCIES AND COMMUNITIES TOGETHER TO WORK ON ONE OF THE STATE'S MOST PRESSING PROBLEMS.

>> McCarthy: WE ARE GOING THROUGH AN UNPRECEDENTED TIME IN TERMS OF THE SPEED AT WHICH FORESTS ARE CHANGING AND THE ENVIRONMENT IS CHANGING, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ECOSYSTEMS THAT HAVE EVOLVED OVER MILLENNIA.

AND SO THE BIG UNKNOWN QUESTIONS ARE, HOW WILL FORESTS ADAPT, AND WHICH PIECES AND PARTS WITHIN AN ECOSYSTEM ARE GOING TO RESPOND QUICKLY AND ADAPT QUICKLY, AND WHICH WILL NOT.

>> Laura: WE KNOW HOW CLIMATE CHANGE DRIVES BIGGER AND HOTTER WILDFIRES AND A LONGER FIRE SEASON, BUT RISING TEMPERATURES AND CHANGES IN PRECIPITATION, LIKE LESS SNOWPACK, THAT AFFECTS FORESTS IN OTHER WAYS, TOO.

DROUGHT, FOR EXAMPLE, KILLS TREES OUTRIGHT.

IT ALSO WEAKENS A TREE'S DEFENSE AGAINST PESTS, LIKE BARK BEETLES.

>> John: WHEN I'M WALKING OUT IN THE FOREST, I'M NOT LOOKING FOR HEALTHY TREES, I'M LOOKING FOR ANY KIND OF TINGE OF SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH THAT TREE, AND GENERALLY IF IT'S A BARK BEETLE ATTACKED TREE, WHAT YOU'LL SEE IS THE WHOLE CANOPY KIND OF CHANGED TO A STRAW COLOR.

EVENTUALLY IT TURNS A RED RUST COLOR IF IT'S BEEN DEAD FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> Laura: EVERY YEAR THE STATE DOES AERIAL SURVEYS.

THE 2020 SURVEY SHOWED A 9% INCREASE IN INSECT AND DROUGHT STRESS FROM THE YEAR BEFORE.

>> John: THERE'S A COUPLE OF SIGNS THAT I LOOK FOR, WHETHER THAT'S WOODPECKERS PECKING AT THE BARK, SOME OTHER INDICATORS ARE THE PITCH TUBES THAT HAVE DRIED, AND THEN YOU CAN SEE EXIT HOLES IF THE TREE HAS BEEN ATTACKED FOR SO LONG.

THOSE EGGS WILL REACH ADULTHOOD AND THEN THEY'LL BORE THEIR WAY OUT OF THE TREE, AND YOU'LL SEE THESE LITTLE TINY ROUND EXIT HOLES.

>> Laura: OVER THE LAST DECADE, DROUGHT AND HOT CONDITIONS HAVE CAUSED BARK BEETLES TO KILL MORE THAN ONE AND A HALF MILLION ACRES OF NEW MEXICO'S FORESTS.

DEFOLIATORS, LIKE CATERPILLARS AND PINON NEEDLE SCALE, THEY'VE AFFECTED ALMOST 4 MILLION ACRES IN THAT TIME.

STATE FORESTRY RELIES ON SCIENCE FOR SURVEYS, TREATMENTS, UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN, AND PART OF DEPUTY DIRECTOR LINDSEY QUAM'S JOB IS MAKING SURE THAT NEW MEXICO'S 23 SOVEREIGN TRIBES ARE A PART OF CONVERSATIONS AROUND FOREST HEALTH.

>> Lindsey: I THINK THE ADVANTAGE THAT THEY HAVE IS THAT THEY HOLD LANDS THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOR MILLENNIA.

THEY ARE ON THEIR ANCESTORIAL LANDS, SO THEY ARE THE ORIGINAL STEWARDS OF THIS LAND.

THEY'VE BEEN HERE MANAGING THIS LANDSCAPE, THEY'VE SEEN THE CHANGES, THEY KNOW THE CHANGES, THEY HAVE A LOT OF TRADITIONAL ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE THAT I THINK WE NEED TO TAP INTO AND LISTEN TO, TO HELP US WITH TODAY'S PROBLEMS, BECAUSE IN THEIR STORIES, IN THEIR CULTURE, THEY SPEAK OF IT.

IT'S UP TO US TO PUT THE SCIENCE WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE.

>> Laura: TODAY CHAD BROWN IS THE FOREST DEVELOPMENT AND RESTORATION MANAGER FOR SANTA CLARA PUEBLO.

HE STARTED WORKING IN SANTA CLARA CANYON IN 2012, THE YEAR AFTER LAS CONCHAS WHEN CREWS WERE DEALING WITH FLOODS AND ASH AND DEBRIS FLOWS.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN THEY HAD TO FIGURE OUT WAYS TO REMOVE THE TREES DAMMING UP THE CANYON.

>> Chad: IF WE HADN'T HAVE DONE THAT, THEN IT WOULD HAVE CREATED LOG JAMS AND STRUCTURES TO WHERE THE NEXT DEBRIS FLOW COULD HAVE IMPACTED THE HOMES DOWN AT THE BASE OF THE CANYON AND WITHIN THE COMMUNITY.

>> Laura: NOW HE WORKS ON PLANTING AND RESTORATION AND HE SEES HOW EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED.

>> Chad: IT'S BEEN SEVERAL YEARS SINCE OUR LAST FLOOD, BUT ALL THE TREES THAT HAVE BEEN WITHIN THIS SANTA CLARA CREEK TRIBUTARY, THEY'VE SEEN THE FIRE, THEY'VE SEEN THE FLOODS, AND NOW THEY'RE GETTING IMPACTED WITH THE INSECTS THAT ARE COMING IN BECAUSE OF THE STRESSES FROM ALL THOSE PREVIOUS DISTURBANCE EVENTS.

YOU'RE GETTING ALL THESE COMPLEX LAYERS OF THINGS THAT ARE IMPACTING THESE TREES AND YOU'RE SEEING A LOT MORE MORTALITY.

>> Laura: THIS LANDSCAPE HERE IN SANTA CLARA CANYON, IT'S BEEN THE PEOPLE'S HOMELAND FOR MILLENNIA.

>> Chad: THE GOVERNOR OF THE TRIBE TALKS A LOT ABOUT THE FOREST AND THE CANYON BEING A SANCTUARY, THE GROCERY STORE, OUR PHARMACY, AND THAT'S REFLECTED BACK IN THE CULTURE AND THE STORIES AND THE SONGS.

YOU TALK TO ANYONE IN THE COMMUNITY, THEY ALL HAVE A STORY ABOUT BEING IN THE CANYON.

EVERYONE HAS A FAVORITE PLACE IN THE CANYON.

IT'S ALL THE WAY BACK, AND THERE'S THAT LONG LINEAGE OF PEOPLE BEING HERE.

>> Laura: THIS LANDSCAPE HAS TAKEN CARE OF THEM, AND THE PEOPLE OF SANTA CLARA WILL CONTINUE TAKING CARE OF THIS LANDSCAPE NO MATTER WHAT CHANGES ARE COMING.

FOR 'OUR LAND' AND NEW MEXICO InFOCUS, I'M LAURA PASKUS.

>> Gene: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE, BUT THE PENTAGON SAYS IT'S NOT KEEPING SECRETS THAT EXPLAIN UFOs.

A GOVERNMENT REPORT DUE OUT LATER THIS MONTH WILL PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THESE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS, KNOWN IN THE MILITARY, BY THE WAY, AS UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA, OR UAPs.

BUT ACCORDING TO MANY NEWS REPORTS, THE PENTAGON'S ACCOUNT WILL LARGELY BE INCONCLUSIVE.

LAURA, JUST THE IDEA THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T EXPLAIN SOME OF THESE UAPs, I MEAN, COME ON, DOESN'T THAT JUST FUEL THEORIES THAT ACTUALLY BECOME ECONOMIC DRIVERS?

I MEAN, ROSWELL STANDS TO GAIN AT THE END OF THE MONTH.

IF I WAS THEM, I'D HOLD A BIG PARTY WHEN THIS THING GETS RELEASED.

THIS COULD BE VERY INTERESTING.

WHAT'S YOUR SENSE ABOUT HOW THE PENTAGON IS HANDLING THIS SO FAR?

>> Laura: WELL, THAT'S NOT A BAD IDEA, ACTUALLY.

IF MAYOR DENNIS KINTIGH IS LISTENING, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING TO SUGGEST, RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I GO TO ROSWELL FAIRLY REGULARLY.

I KNOW I'VE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE, BUT THESE DAYS I GO TO ROSWELL A PRETTY REGULAR AMOUNT, LIKE A COUPLE TIMES A MONTH, AND I WAS JUST THERE LAST WEEKEND AND THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE UP AND DOWN THE UFO MUSEUM, YOU KNOW, MAIN STREET, LOOKING AT THE UFO MUSEUM, THE SHOPS, BUYING THINGS, SO IT IS DEFINITELY AN ECONOMIC DRIVER, ESPECIALLY DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS, WHICH IS CRAZY BECAUSE IT'S LIKE 108 DOWN THERE TODAY.

IN ANY EVENT, I THINK WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE IDEA THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS BASICALLY MAYBE SAYING IN THIS REPORT, IT'S ANTICIPATED THEY PROBABLY WILL DENY ANY KNOWLEDGE, OR THEY WILL ONCE AGAIN SAY THAT IT CAN'T BE CONFIRMED, RIGHT, THAT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

WELL, THAT JUST SORT OF FUELS THE CONSPIRACY.

THE THING ABOUT A CONSPIRACY IS THEY CAN ALWAYS BE EXPLAINED BY ANOTHER CONSPIRACY.

BUT PERSONALLY, I'M A HUGE FAN OF SCI-FI, AND I WANTED TO POINT OUT IN CASE PEOPLE DON'T SEE THAT BACK THERE, I'M GOING TO SEE IF I CAN -- OH, WELL, YOU CAN'T SEE IT THAT WELL.

BUT THERE'S MY STAR TREK GEORGE TAKEI SIGNED -- >> Gene: I'M JEALOUS.

>> Laura: SURE, THAT I GOT AT A STAR TREK CONVENTION, ONE OF MY FIRST.

SO I'M A HUGE SCI-FI FAN, AND SO THIS FUELS RIGHT INTO ALL OF THAT, AND I THINK THAT THOSE IMAGES FROM THE PILOTS ARE REALLY INTERESTING WHEN YOU SEE THOSE REPORTS AND THEIR REALTIME REACTIONS TO THOSE.

IT'S VERY INTERESTING.

I MEAN, THEY ARE EXACTLY THAT, THEY ARE UNEXPLAINED, OR UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS, OR UAPs, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.

>> Gene: SENATOR, IT'S INTERESTING WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT NO ONE WOULD EVER QUESTION A NAVY COMMANDER OR A NAVY PILOT, BUT THERE'S LOTS AND LOTS OF THESE SIGHTINGS FROM THESE NAVY FOLKS.

LAURA JUST REFERENCED THAT 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW FROM JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO THAT KIND OF WOKE UP THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE GOT PILOTS SAYING THEY SEE THESE THINGS ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, AND MY QUESTION IS, ALL RIGHT, IF THEY'RE NOT EXTRATERRESTRIALS, WHERE ARE THESE THINGS COMING FROM?

WHY DOES IT ALWAYS SEEM TO BE SEEN IN RESTRICTED AIR SPACE, HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT?

SOMETHING'S GOING ON HERE.

WHAT'S YOUR SENSE AS A SECURITY ISSUE?

I'M BEING VERY SERIOUS HERE.

SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED HERE?

>> Sen. Snyder: I THINK WE CERTAINLY, TO A DEGREE, SHOULD BE CONCERNED, BECAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY ARE -- LESS SUPPORTIVE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD ARE NOT GOING TO TELL US WHEN THEY CREATE SOMETHING THAT CAN DO THAT, THAT COME IN AND SPY ON US.

THAT'S THE CONSPIRACY I IMMEDIATELY SEE, IS IT'S ALL THOSE BAD GUYS BUILDING THESE MACHINES AND THESE RADAR THINGS AND THEY'RE COMING IN AND THEY'RE GOING TO PICK US UP AND TAKE US AWAY.

I'M NOT REAL SURE THAT I'M READY YET TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S ALIEN HUMANS, OR ALIEN BEINGS, THAT ARE GOING TO COME IN AND TAKE US ALL OFF TO MARS OR WHEREVER FOR A VACATION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS AN EXPLANATION, A SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION OF IT.

WHETHER WE KNOW IT, OR WHETHER THE ARMY KNOWS THAT OR NOT, IS STILL SUSPECT IN MY MIND.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW A LOT MORE THAN THEY'RE WILLING TO TELL US.

I THINK FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN SO FAR ON CBS AND THE WEB, I'M AMAZED THAT THE ARMY HAS BEEN THIS OPEN ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY'VE SEEN.

BUT ONE JUST LITTLE QUICK THING THAT I THOUGHT WAS ABSOLUTELY HYSTERICAL IS ONE OF THE SIGHTINGS, THERE WAS A WHOLE GROUP OF THESE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING PHENOMENON, AND SUDDENLY TWO OF THEM STARTED FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER.

AND I'M JUST GOING, WHAT?

SO IF THEY'RE OUT THERE TO COME AND GET US, OR TO DO DAMAGE TO US, OR SPY ON US, WHAT THE HECK WERE THOSE TWO DOING?

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE A DOG FIGHT.

THAT'S WHY I FEEL IT WAS MILITARY, IT LOOKED LIKE A DOG FIGHT GOING ON BETWEEN THEM.

SO I'M GOING, NOT SO SURE THIS IS ON THE UP AND UP.

SOMEBODY, SOMEPLACE, IS HAVING A WONDERFUL TIME.

>> Gene: YOU HAVE TO THINK, THEY DECLASSIFIED THOSE THREE VIDEOS THAT WE'VE ALL SEEN NOW ALL OVER THE NEWS, BUT THERE'S A BUNCH MORE, BECAUSE AGAIN, AS A REMINDER, THESE ARE NOT FOLKS CELLPHONE CAMERAS, THESE ARE FROM FIGHTER JETS, THEIR CAMERAS.

SOPHIE, I'VE GOT TO GET MARTIN HEINRICH IN HERE, OUR SENATOR.

HE'S BEEN QUOTED NOW SAYING TAKING THE DATA WE'VE SEEN AND THE VIDEOS WE'VE SEEN AND THEIR TESTIMONY SERIOUSLY IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

IS THAT THE RIGHT PLACE TO START, JUST TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY?

>> Sophie: THAT'S NOT A OUT-THERE RESPONSE, I THINK THAT'S A PRETTY MEASURED RESPONSE.

HE'S NOT, YOU KNOW, WRAPPING HIS OWN HEAD IN TINFOIL, AND HE'S ALSO NOT POO-POOING IT.

HE'S LOOKING FOR, LIKE, LET'S PUT ALL THE FACTS ON THE TABLE.

YOU KNOW, AT THE RISK OF BEING A LITTLE BIT OF A WET BLANKET, I ACTUALLY REALLY APPRECIATED DAVID AXE ON THE DAILY BEAST AND HIS DISCUSSION OF THIS ISSUE.

IT WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, LET'S THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT.

ARE ALIENS THAT INTERESTED IN OUR AIRCRAFT THAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT ALL OF THAT RESOURCE INTO THE AIRCRAFT, AFTER THEY'VE TRAVELED FOR HOWEVER MANY MILES, TO FOCUS ON THOSE?

WHO'S REALLY INTERESTED IN OUR AIRCRAFT?

TO DIANE'S POINT, THAT WOULD BE FOLKS WHO -- YOU PUT IT NICELY.

I CAN'T REMEMBER.

BUT OUR ADVERSARIES IN THE GLOBAL SPACE.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Sophie: I THINK PART OF WHAT MAKES THIS STRANGE FOR PEOPLE AND DIFFICULT TO WRAP THEIR MINDS AROUND, INCLUDING IT SOUNDS LIKE FOR SOME MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, IS THAT THEY'VE SEEN THESE CRAFT AND THEY SEEM TO BEHAVE IN WAYS THAT DON'T REALLY FIT INTO EASY EXPLANATIONS.

SO IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AN ADVERSARY HAS COME UP WITH A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND DIDN'T SHARE IT WITH US?

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> Laura: CAN I JUST JUMP IN REAL QUICK AND PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE?

I THINK THAT SOMETIMES PEOPLE, WHEN THEY THINK OF OTHER BEINGS OUTSIDE OF THIS EARTH AND OUR CONCEPT OF IT, WE THINK OF THEM AS OMNIPOTENT, RIGHT, ALL-KNOWING.

THEY'RE GOING TO KNOW EVERYTHING.

I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY MORE ADVANCED THAN US, BUT I THINK IT'S TOTALLY POSSIBLE THAT THERE COULD BE A RECOGNIZANCE TEAM THAT GETS SENT DOWN TO INVESTIGATE WHAT WE'RE ABOUT.

WE HAVE OUR ARCHEOLOGISTS THAT GO BACK AND LOOK AT PRIMITIVE CULTURES.

THIS IDEA OF THE TOOLS THAT THEY USED AND THE THINGS THAT THEY WERE LOOKING AT, WE HAVE ENTIRE FIELDS DEDICATED TO THAT.

PEOPLE WORKING ON THEIR PH.D.s ALL TO KIND OF LOOK AT A PRIMITIVE CULTURE, AT A DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING THINGS THAT ISN'T AS ADVANCED AS MAYBE WE THINK OF NOW.

I DON'T THINK IT'S OUT OF THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY THAT THAT WOULD BE THE CASE.

I THINK IN MY MIND, AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK I'M A KOOK, AND THAT'S FINE, BUT IN MY MIND, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY JUST AS LIKELY, IF NOT MORE LIKELY THAT THAT WOULD BE GOING ON THAN THAT THE CHINESE OR THE RUSSIANS OR ANYBODY ELSE WOULD BE THAT FAR ADVANCED THAN US.

BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THAT GIVEN JUST -- I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF HACKERS OUT THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY COMING TOGETHER FOR STATE-SPONSORED PROGRAMS THAT GO TO THAT LEVEL.

>> Gene: BE A HECK OF A HACK, THAT'S FOR SURE.

>> Laura: THEY'RE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO ASK FOR BIT COIN AND TAKING OUR INFORMATION.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

MAYOR KINTIGH, YOU HAVE YOUR ORDERS FROM LAURA SANCHEZ.

>> Laura: AND BY THE WAY, I DO THINK THAT SENATOR HEINRICH IS SMART IN SAYING THIS ABOUT THE UFO INVESTIGATION, BECAUSE HE IS GOING TO BE RUNNING FOR STATEWIDE ELECTION HERE SOON.

SO WHY NOT SUPPORT.

>> Gene: IT'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

I WAS IN ROSWELL THIS PAST WEEKEND, AND I'M TELLING YOU, THEY'RE POISED TO HAVE A BIG ONE IF THEY DO IT RIGHT.

MAYOR, WE'RE WATCHING YOU.

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT EXACTLY IS IN THAT REPORT, UNFORTUNATELY.

UNTIL THEN, WE'LL ALL JUST HAVE TO KEEP OUR EYES AND MINDS OPEN, I GUESS.

WHEN WE COME BACK TO THE LINE, WE JUMP INTO ANOTHER UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA, REDISTRICTING.

>> Gene: WE CONTINUE OUR LOOK AT ALBUQUERQUE'S HOME FOR LIFE PROGRAM THIS WEEK.

THE CITY'S ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT IS LIKE SO MANY CITIES AROUND NEW MEXICO TRYING TO RECRUIT REMOTE WORKERS FROM LARGER CITIES.

THE MAYOR HAS ARGUED THE TIME TO ACT IS NOW DESPITE WHATEVER CHALLENGES THE CITY MIGHT FACE.

ONE OF THOSE CHALLENGES THAT WILL BE DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY AN INFLUX OF WORKERS FROM CITIES LIKE LOS ANGELES, DENVER, DALLAS AND PORTLAND IS HOUSING PRICES.

BUYING HOMES AND RENTING A PLACE TO LIVE IS A CHALLENGE.

NMIF SENIOR PRODUCER MATT GRUBS SPOKE THIS WEEK WITH MIKE LOFTIN, THE CEO OF HOMEWISE, ABOUT THE PLAN.

>> Matt: MIKE LOFTIN, THANKS FOR TAKING A FEW MINUTES WITH US.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK GETS CO-MINGLED IN OUR MINDS WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOUSING SHORTAGES ARE THE TERMS AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND HOUSING MARKET.

HOW DO YOU, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT BOTH THOSE TERMS, HOW DO YOU THINK OF HOUSING AS A WHOLE, I GUESS?

>> Mike: WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT THE TERM AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS INHERENTLY A RELATIVE TERM.

WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I CAN AFFORD.

I THINK THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT IS, DO YOU HAVE A HOUSING MARKET OR A HOUSING SPECTRUM SO THAT ALL TYPES OF HOUSES FOR DIFFERENT INCOME LEVELS ARE SERVED, RIGHT, SO THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT -- A HEALTHY HOUSING SITUATION IS ONE IN WHICH THE WHOLE SPECTRUM IS BEING SERVED, RIGHT, FROM INTERVENTIONS TO HELP HOMELESS PEOPLE GET OUT OF HOMELESSNESS, THERE'S AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING, THERE'S HOME OWNERSHIP HOUSING, THERE'S WAYS TO HELP PEOPLE THAT ALREADY OWN THEIR HOMES KEEP IT, BECAUSE THEY MAYBE NEED TO FIX THE ROOF OR SOMETHING.

BUT YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE SPECTRUM OF IT.

THERE ARE HIGHER INCOME PEOPLE WHO NEED HOUSING, AND WHEN THERE'S NOT HOUSING FOR THEM, THEN IT CREATES PRESSURE DOWNWARD ON THE OTHER HOUSING.

SO YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT IT HOLISTICALLY.

>> Matt: IN ALBUQUERQUE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MARKETS IN WHICH HOMEWISE WORKS, THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS MAKING WHAT'S PERHAPS ON UNDERSTANDABLE PLAY FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE FOR MORE WORKERS FROM BIG CITIES MAKING GOOD SALARIES WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO WORK REMOTELY FROM ALBUQUERQUE.

IT CERTAINLY, AS I SAID, FROM AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PERSPECTIVE SOUNDS GOOD, BUT MIGHT THEY BE CROWDING OUT PEOPLE WHO ALREADY LIVE HERE WHO ARE LOOKING TO GET INTO THE HOUSING MARKET?

>> Mike: WELL, YEAH, BUT ANY TIME A JOB GETS LOCATED IN NEW MEXICO, IN ALBUQUERQUE, THERE'S MORE DEMAND FOR OUR WORKFORCE AND THERE'S GOING TO BE MORE PEOPLE MOVING HERE, AND IT'S GOING TO CREATE PRESSURE ON THE HOUSING MARKET.

WHETHER THEY'RE WORKING FROM HOME OR WORKING FROM AN OFFICE, THEY STILL HAVE TO LIVE SOMEWHERE.

SO I DON'T THINK ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND ECONOMIC GROWTH IS INHERENTLY OPPOSITIONAL TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

SO I THINK WHAT THE CITY IS DOING IS ACTUALLY KIND OF AN INTERESTING IDEA, AND I THINK IT'S A PRETTY INNOVATIVE IDEA, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO HAVE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT WITHOUT JUST CHASING A SMOKESTACK OR A BIG FIRM, AN AMAZON OR WHATEVER.

OUR QUALITY OF LIFE IS TERRIFIC HERE, AND IF YOU CAN WORK FOR GOOGLE AND MAKE WHAT THEY MAKE IN THE BAY AREA AND LIVE IN NEW MEXICO, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A PRETTY GOOD LIFESTYLE.

SO I THINK WHAT THEY'RE DOING, I THINK, AS AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY IS FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, YOU NEED A CORRESPONDING HOUSING STRATEGY, AND THAT I DON'T THINK THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE HAS.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A HOUSING STRATEGY OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE WE BUILD A HEALTHY HOUSING SPECTRUM SO THAT THERE'S MORE HOUSING AND MORE OPTIONS THAT PEOPLE CAN AFFORD AND BENEFIT FROM.

>> Matt: SURE.

THE CITY SAID TO US LAST WEEK THAT THEY DON'T ANTICIPATE THIS BEING A SORT OF LAND RUSH FROM OUT-OF-TOWNERS, RIGHT, THAT IT'LL HAPPEN MORE GRADUALLY AND THE HOUSING MARKET WILL HAVE TIME TO ADJUST TO THAT.

IS THERE A WAY FOR US TO GAUGE WHETHER OR NOT THAT SCENARIO IS A REASONABLE EXPECTATION?

>> Mike: I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WOULD GAUGE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR METRICS ARE OR WHAT THEY'RE MEASURING.

BUT I THINK I WOULDN'T WAIT TO DO THE MEASUREMENT AFTER THE FACT, I WOULD START SAYING, WHAT CAN WE DO NOW TO INCREASE HOUSING OPTIONS?

AND I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE ATTRACTING PEOPLE WHO ARE TELE-COMMUTING AND STUFF, AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SINGLE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T NECESSARILY GOING TO WANT A SUBURBAN HOME IN RIO RANCHO, THEY'RE GOING TO WANT TO LIVE DOWNTOWN WHERE THEY CAN WALK, AND ARE WE CREATING HOUSING OPTIONS DOWNTOWN.

AND FOR SINGLE PEOPLE, ARE WE CREATING OWNERSHIP OPTIONS?

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE GET TIRED OF SPENDING MONEY ON RENT, AND IF YOU WANT THEM TO PUT DOWN ROOTS, THEN OWNERSHIP IS A GOOD WAY TO DO THAT.

BUT THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE SAY, I'M MOVING HERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I'M GOING TO LIKE IT, I NEED SOMETHING I CAN RENT.

SO YOU NEED ALL THOSE KIND OF OPTIONS.

>> Matt: SURE.

WHO NEEDS TO BE THINKING ABOUT THIS STUFF FROM A HIGHER LEVEL, FROM THAT 30,000-FOOT PERSPECTIVE?

OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM ISN'T REALLY SET UP FOR SOMEONE LIKE THE MAYOR TO NECESSARILY BE THINKING, YOU KNOW, 10, 20, 30 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Mike: WELL, I THINK MAYORS HAVE TO DO THAT.

WE NEED THEM TO DO THAT.

I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL THAT THEY DO IT.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A LOT OF GOOD STUFF THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN RECENTLY ABOUT THE POWER OF MAYORS TO INNOVATE AND PAVE NEW WAYS.

RAHM EMANUEL, THE MAYOR OF CHICAGO, WROTE A BOOK ON THE CENTRAL ROLE OF CITIES, AND THERE'S ANOTHER BOOK CALLED 'THE NEW LOCALISM' THAT MAKES THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENT.

SO I THINK CITIES ARE A PLACE WHERE THIS CAN HAPPEN.

BUT IT TAKES LEADERSHIP AT THE TOP, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A COORDINATE WITH THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT, YOU NEED A HOUSING STRATEGY.

WE DON'T HAVE A HOUSING DEPARTMENT THAT JUST FOCUSES ON HOUSING IN ALBUQUERQUE.

MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

BUT YOU CAN'T DO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT WITHOUT ALSO LOOKING AT WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE.

THEY GO HAND-IN-HAND.

AND HOUSING, UNFORTUNATELY, GETS LEFT BEHIND A LOT ON THIS, AND WHAT WE DO -- AND THIS IS TRUE FOR THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE -- IS THERE'S JUST A LOT OF FOCUS ON HOW TO DO VERY LOW INCOME RENTAL HOUSING, WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT NEED, BUT IT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE WHOLE SPECTRUM.

WHEN SOMEONE BUYS A HOUSE, IT FREES UP A RENTAL UNIT FOR SOMEONE WHO NEEDS THAT RENTAL UNIT.

THAT'S WHY THE SPECTRUM IS SO IMPORTANT.

IT'S ALL INTERCONNECTED.

AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS JUST SPATIALLY, WHERE DO PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE?

I THINK IF WE'RE GOING TO REVITALIZE DOWNTOWN -- IF YOU DON'T HAVE MORE PEOPLE LIVING THERE, YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO DO IT.

THE SILVER STREET GROCERY STORE, WHICH IS A GREAT THING THAT HAPPENED THERE, THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE PEOPLE THAT CAN WALK TO THAT STORE IF THAT STORE IS GOING TO BE VIABLE, AND IF THE STORE IS VIABLE, DOWNTOWN IS MORE VIABLE, AND MORE PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE THERE.

IT'S A CYCLE.

SO WE'RE ACTUALLY GETTING -- HOMEWISE IS GETTING READY TO BUILD 16 TOWNHOUSES RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET FROM SILVER STREET MARKET, WHICH WILL BE A REALLY GOOD THING, AND IT'S MIXED INCOME.

IT'S NOT ALL LOW INCOME.

THERE WILL BE AFFORDABLE HOUSING THERE, THERE WILL BE MARKET RATE HOUSING THERE, AND I THINK THAT'S THE KIND OF THING WE NEED.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT PROJECT IS IT'S ONLY 16 UNITS.

>> Matt: RIGHT, IT'S INCREMENTAL CHANGE.

YOU'VE DONE SOME WORK FOR THE URBAN INSTITUTE AND YOU ARGUE THAT ESPECIALLY SINCE COMING OUT OF THE HOUSING CRISIS A DECADE AGO, OWNING A HOUSE CAN ACTUALLY BE CHEAPER THAN RENTING.

CAN YOU SPEND MAYBE A MOMENT EXPLAINING WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT THERE?

>> Mike: YES.

SO THERE'S A GROWING RECOGNITION AMONG POLICYMAKERS AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, ESPECIALLY, THAT THE PATH TO CLOSING THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP IN AMERICA IS LARGELY GOING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED BY CLOSING THE RACIAL HOMEOWNERSHIP GAP.

SO THERE'S SOME RECOGNITION OF THAT.

WHAT'S NOT RECOGNIZED IS HOW HOMEOWNERSHIP IS ALSO A VERY POWERFUL ENGINE FOR HOUSING AFFORDABILITY.

SO I DID A PAPER FOR THE URBAN INSTITUTE THAT LOOKED AT WHAT DO PEOPLE PAY AS A PERCENTAGE OF THEIR INCOME ON HOUSING, AND HOMEOWNERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE TYPICAL HOMEOWNER, PAYS TEN PERCENTAGE POINTS LESS ON HOUSING THAN DOES THE RENTER.

TEN PERCENTAGE POINTS, IT'S LIKE A THIRD.

AND THEN I LOOKED AT CONTROLLED FOR INCOME, AND IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO MAKE LESS THAN $50,000 A YEAR, WHICH IS CONSIDERED LOW INCOME, THAT TEN PERCENTAGE POINT HOLDS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE WITH VERY LOW INCOME MAKING LESS THAN $20,000, IT STILL HOLDS.

WHEN YOU LOOK ACROSS RACIAL AND ETHNIC LINES, IT HOLDS.

SO, LIKE, WE OVERLOOK IT, AND IT'S A POWERFUL PART OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

AND THE MAIN REASON -- I GO AT LENGTH EXPLAINING WHY THIS IS TRUE, BUT THE MAIN REASON IS, WHEN YOU BUY A HOME, TYPICALLY YOU'RE LOCKING INTO A 30-YEAR FIXED RATE MORTGAGE.

YOUR PRINCIPLE AND INTEREST PORTION OF YOUR HOUSING EXPENSE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF TAXES AND INSURANCE, IS HELD CONSTANT FOR 30 YEARS.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A 30-YEAR LEASE.

SO YOU GET PROGRESSIVELY AHEAD BECAUSE YOU'VE HELD CONSTANT THE VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR HOUSING PAYMENT.

THE REASON WHY I THINK WE TEND TO THINK THAT BUYING A HOME IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN RENTING IS BECAUSE OF OUR OWN EXPERIENCES.

WHEN YOU BUY A HOUSE, TYPICALLY WHAT YOU PAY IN HOUSING GOES UP, BUT IT'S NOT DRIVEN BY THE TENURE.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE I'M GOING FROM RENTING TO AN OWNER, IT'S TYPICALLY BECAUSE I'M GOING FROM A ONE BEDROOM, ONE BATH APARTMENT TO A THREE BEDROOM, TWO BATH HOUSE WITH A GARAGE AND A YARD.

IF I RENTED THAT EXTRA HOUSING, I'D BE PAYING MORE, TOO.

SO YOU CONFLATE THOSE TWO THINGS AND IT'S LIKE, IN FACT, IN TWO-THIRDS OF AMERICA, IT IS CHEAPER TO BUY A HOME THAN IT IS TO RENT A COMPARABLE HOME TODAY.

NOT IN THE FUTURE, BECAUSE OF THE INFLATION I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, THAT'S TRUE RIGHT NOW.

IT ONLY GETS BETTER BECAUSE YOU'VE CONTROLLED THE PRINCIPLE AND THE INTEREST PORTION OF YOUR HOUSING EXPENSES.

>> Matt: SURE, AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT NUMBERS FROM ZILLOW, SO THESE WEREN'T JUST ARCANE NUMBERS OUT THERE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I NOTICED IN YOUR PAPER WAS THAT, I MEAN, YOU TALK ABOUT THE RACIAL DISPARITIES AND ETHNIC DISPARITIES.

IF YOU LOOK AT BLACK AND HISPANIC HOMEOWNERS, EVEN AT LOW INCOME LEVELS, THEY ARE DOING BETTER IN TERMS OF WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THEIR INCOME GOES TO THEIR HOUSING THAN WHITE RENTERS.

SO IT REALLY SEEMS TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, DOES IT NOT?

>> Mike: OH, YEAH.

NO, IT'S STUNNING; RIGHT.

BLACK HOMEOWNERS AND HISPANIC HOMEOWNERS PAY LESS PERCENTAGE OF THEIR INCOME THAN WHITE RENTERS DO ACROSS THE BOARD.

HERE'S THE RUB ON THAT.

IN ALBUQUERQUE, IN THE METROPOLITAN AREA OF ALBUQUERQUE, 73% OF WHITES, NONHISPANIC WHITES, OWN THEIR OWN HOME.

IT'S ONLY 65% OF HISPANICS, WHICH IS STILL COMPARED TO THE NATIONAL STATISTICS PRETTY GOOD.

BUT IN 1990, THE HISPANIC HOMEOWNERSHIP RATE AND THE ANGLO HOMEOWNERSHIP RATE IN ALBUQUERQUE WERE THE SAME.

THERE WAS NO GAP.

A GAP HAS GROWN SINCE THEN.

WHAT'S REALLY DISTURBING IS THE HOMEOWNERSHIP RATE FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN ALBUQUERQUE IS ONLY 44%.

IT'S A HUGE GAP, ALMOST 30 POINTS BETWEEN WHITE HOMEOWNERS AND BLACK HOMEOWNERS.

WE COULD DO BETTER.

YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO AS A CITY IS WE SHOULD SAY, WE'RE GOING TO BECOME THE FIRST CITY IN AMERICA THAT HAS NO HOMEOWNERSHIP GAP, WE DON'T HAVE A RACIAL HOMEOWNERSHIP GAP.

WE'VE CLOSED IT.

AND IT'S DOABLE.

>> Matt: MIKE LOFTIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE KNEW WE'D RUN SHORT, AND OF COURSE, WE DID.

BUT THANK YOU AGAIN.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR WORK ON THIS AND PAYING ATTENTION TO IT.

>> Mike: THANK YOU, MATT, APPRECIATE IT.

>> Gene: THAT RIGHT OF SPRING AND SUMMERS IS BACK, FARMERS AND GROWERS MARKETS.

FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THEY'RE PART OF THE LIFE BLOOD OF NEW MEXICO.

NOW, WHEN THE PANDEMIC HIT, OF COURSE, THEIR FUTURE, LIKE THAT OF SO MANY OTHERS, WAS THROWN IN QUESTION.

BUT OUT OF THOSE QUESTIONS CAME MANY SMART, RESILIENT ANSWERS.

OUR CREW HEADED TO SANTA FE LAST WEEK TO TALK ABOUT GROWING THROUGH THE PANDEMIC.

>> Dan: THERE'S A HUGE COMMUNITY BENEFIT RIGHT NOW FOR PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO COME OUT AND GATHER IN A SAFE WAY, AND I THINK THAT AN OPEN AND EXPANDED MARKET PROVIDES THAT.

CURRENTLY WE HAVE LOTS OF GREENS COMING OUT OF THE FIELDS, SUMMER VEGETABLES AS WELL, SOME HERBS AS WELL.

BEETS AND CARROTS WILL BE COMING, AND THERE'S A WHOLE SLEW OF THINGS FOR THE SUMMER.

AND THEN COME FALL, WE HAVE PEPPERS.

>> Felisa: WE HAVE ABOUT 12 YEARS PLANTING, AND WE GROW LETTUCE, ARUGULA, KALE, SPINACH.

I FEEL A LOT BETTER HELPING, THE THINGS ARE GOING BETTER NOW.

WE NOTICE THE CUSTOMERS NOW, THEY'RE A LITTLE BIT MORE COMFORTABLE IN COMING.

BEFORE THEY USED TO JUST GRAB A BAG AND LEAVE RIGHT AWAY, BUT NOW THEY ACTUALLY TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME.

>> Dan: YES, THERE'S A RELAXING.

PEOPLE FEEL MUCH MORE AT EASE, I THINK, BEING HERE.

>> Debbie: OUR FARMERS PLANT, AND THEY WERE IN THE PLANTING SEASON, BUT THEY ALREADY HAD A LOT OF PLANTING, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAD GREENHOUSES.

IT WAS ESSENTIAL FOR US TO GET THAT FOOD TO THE COMMUNITY, TO THE CUSTOMERS.

WE NEEDED TO GET THEIR PRODUCTS SOLD.

SO WE HAD TO DO WHATEVER WE NEEDED TO DO TO KEEP THE MARKET OPEN, WHICH WE DID.

IT WAS NOT EASY, BUT WE CERTAINLY DID IT, AND IT WAS SOMETHING I WOULD NOT LIKE TO REPEAT.

>> Natasya: THIS IS OUR BUSINESS, ACTUALLY.

WE ONLY SELL TO THE FARMERS MARKET.

WE'RE HERE TUESDAYS AND SATURDAYS.

AND LAST YEAR WAS A HARD FIGURING OUT HOW WE WERE GOING TO DO THIS, EVEN IF WE WERE GOING TO STAY OPEN.

OUR FARM IS IN JACONA, AND WE ARE MR. G'S ORGANIC PRODUCE.

AND WE'VE BEEN HERE AT THE FARMERS MARKET 20 YEARS.

>> Dan: WE SELL HERE AT THE FARMERS MARKET.

WE ALSO HAVE A CSA, A COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE PROGRAM, WHERE PEOPLE BUY SHARES THAT THEY PICK UP EVERY WEEK.

>> THESE ARE BEAUTIFUL.

>> Dan: THANK YOU.

I'LL GIVE YOU TWO THERE.

>> Natasya: A LOT OF US ADOPTED THAT MODEL NOT KNOWING, YOU KNOW, IF THEY HAD PICK UP AT THE FARMS OR -- ACTUALLY, OUR FARMERS MARKET DID SOMETHING WHERE THEY'RE DOING IT, AND CONTINUING TO DO IT, WHERE WE ALL KIND OF GROUPED INTO THEIR CSA, AND THEN THEY BOUGHT THROUGH THE FARMERS MARKET HERE.

>> Debbie: SO YOU GET A BAG OF PRODUCE EVERY WEEK THAT YOU'VE PREPAID, AND THIS PREPAYMENT HELPS THE FARMERS TO PLAN AND PLANT THEIR CROPS, KNOWING THAT THEY HAVE SOME FINANCES TO DO IT WITH AHEAD OF TIME.

>> Natasya: WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO IS SUPPORT THE FARMERS DURING TOUGH TIMES.

SO TRADITIONALLY WHAT YOU DO IS YOU WOULD PAY THE FARMER UPFRONT A FEE, AND THEN IT'S KIND OF LIKE A GAMBLE, YOU WOULD THEN GET A BOX OF PRODUCE EVERY WEEK.

WE DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY, HOWEVER.

WE JUST -- YOU KNOW, YOU PAID FOR WHAT YOU GOT.

BUT IT IS A GREAT MODEL FOR FARMS WHO ARE STRUGGLING, WHO MAYBE HAVE HAIL STORMS AND YOU LOSE EVERYTHING YOU'RE INVESTING IN THE FARMER.

>> Debbie: A LOT OF THE GROWERS ARE GROWING DIFFERENT THINGS.

SOME OF THEM, THEY'RE DOING THEIR OWN CSA PROGRAMS.

SOME OF THEM ARE ONLINE NOW.

THEY HAD TO ADAPT TO ALL OF THESE NEW PROTOCOLS, AND THEY DID AN EXCELLENT JOB.

>> ARE YOU READY FOR ME?

>> Manny: I WAS READY FOR YOU, FOR SURE.

WE'RE AT FIVE MARKETS A WEEK, AND SO THAT'S SPLIT, THE TIME, BETWEEN MYSELF AND MY TWO TEENAGE DAUGHTERS.

SO YOU'LL FIND US AT DOWNTOWN GROWERS, CORRALES GROWERS, SANTA FE OBVIOUSLY, AND EL DORADO.

IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE WE HAD TO BE PRETTY ENGAGED WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND US AND JUST STRATEGICALLY PLACING OUR PRODUCT.

WE KNEW WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING, BEING MORE IN CONTROL OF MARKETING OUR OWN BRAND, OUR OWN PRODUCT.

BUT WHEN COVID KIND OF CAME AROUND, WE DEFINITELY ESTABLISHED A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FOOD CONSUMER WHO WAS MORE DIRECT.

SO WE STARTED CALLING UPON TRIBAL ADMINISTRATIONS IN THE PUEBLOS, BASICALLY FROM THE PUEBLOS THROUGH NAVAJO ALL THE WAY TO HOPI, AND SO WE STARTED ACTUALLY DELIVERING A LOT OF BEEF AND BEANS THAT WAS GROWN BY OUR NEIGHBORS.

MY TEENAGE DAUGHTERS, AGAIN, DEVELOPED AN ONLINE STORE SO THAT A CUSTOMER COULD PURCHASE ONLINE, AND THEN WE COULD DELIVER THE PRODUCT TO A MUTUAL LOCATION AND WE COULD ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING -- IT WAS CURBSIDE PICKUP, BASICALLY.

AND SO THAT REALLY WAS NOT WHERE WE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING, BUT THAT'S WHAT WE WOUND UP HAVING TO BE BECAUSE OF COVID, AND AS A RESULT, WE FOUND OURSELVES MORE ENGAGED WITH THE CONSUMER ON A DAILY BASIS.

WHEN I'M AT THE MARKET, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, MY DAUGHTERS AND MY WIFE AND MY DAD PICK UP A LOT OF THE DAY-TO-DAY STUFF.

COMING TO THE MARKET IS PRETTY MUCH ABOUT A 12-HOUR DEAL FROM THE TIME WE LEAVE UNTIL THE TIME WE GET BACK TO THE RANCH.

SO WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST MULTI-TASKING, DOING IT DIFFERENTLY.

AT THIS TIME, WE JUST FEEL LIKE WE'RE IN A LOT MORE CONTROL OF OUR MARKET.

WE FEEL REALLY CONNECTED TO OUR CONSUMER.

LIKE I TELL A LOT OF MY MARKET CUSTOMERS, MY MARKET CUSTOMERS TO ME ARE MY ENERGY FOR THE WEEK.

WE HAVE A VARIETY OF CUTS, TRADITIONAL CUTS, POPULAR CUTS.

I USE MARKET FRIENDLY, YEAH, SO THAT'S NOT VERY HOT.

>> Natasya: IT ENDED UP BEING AN AMAZING YEAR.

PEOPLE FELT VERY SAFE.

THEY WANTED TO KNOW WHERE THEIR FOOD CAME FROM.

THEY LIKED THAT WE WERE SHOPPING OUTSIDE, LOCAL.

>> Dan: THE SENSE OF COMMUNITY AND HEALTH AROUND FOOD THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE VERY HUNGRY FOR, ESPECIALLY AT THE MOMENT.

>> Natasya: CUSTOMERS ARE HAPPY TO BE BACK.

I HAVEN'T SEEN SOME OF MY CUSTOMERS IN A YEAR.

THEY JUST DIDN'T COME, OR THEY DID IT THROUGH THE CSA, THROUGH THE DRIVE-THROUGH.

AND THIS YEAR, THEY'RE COMING BACK.

SO HAPPY TO BE BACK.

SMILES THROUGH THEIR EYES, WHICH IS NICE TO SEE.

>> Gene: NEW MEXICO'S FIRST EVER REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE IS NOW SET, BUT THE QUESTIONS ABOUT REPRESENTATION AND INFLUENCE WHEN REDRAWING POLITICAL BOUNDARIES ARE FAR FROM OVER.

THE SEVEN MEMBER BODY IS APPOINTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP, AS WELL AS THE STATE'S ETHICS COMMISSION.

HEADING UP THE COMMITTEE IS RETIRED SUPREME COURT JUSTICE EDWARD CHAVEZ, WHO ALSO SERVED ON LAST YEAR'S REDISTRICTING TASK FORCE YOU MIGHT RECALL.

THE REST OF THE GROUP IS MOSTLY MALE, FORMER STATE LAWMAKERS, OR POLITICAL INSIDERS AND ALMOST ENTIRELY FROM ALBUQUERQUE TO BOOT.

NOW, LAURA, IS THIS WHAT FOLKS HAD IN MIND WHEN THEY PUSHED FOR THIS NEW REDISTRICTING REFORM?

>> Laura: I DON'T THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF LEGISLATORS THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN.

I MEAN, WE HAVE A VERY, VERY STRONG RURAL CONSTITUENCY OBVIOUSLY IN NEW MEXICO FOR GOOD REASON, AND I DON'T THINK THAT PEOPLE EXPECTED THIS WOULD BE SOLELY COMING OUT OF ALBUQUERQUE.

BUT OF COURSE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, IT'S A SELF-SELECTION ISSUE, RIGHT.

PEOPLE COULD HAVE SUBMITTED THEIR INFORMATION AND ASKED TO BE ON THIS.

SO MAYBE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADVERTISED MORE WIDELY OR IN OTHER KIND OF -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ADVERTISED IT TO BEGIN WITH.

BUT THAT'S A REAL ISSUE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S VERY DIVERSE, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GOOD TO NOT HAVE MORE WOMEN ON THERE.

YOU NEED PARITY ON THAT FRONT.

>> Gene: SENATOR, SHOULD WE BE SURPRISED, POLITICOS PICKING OTHER POLITICOS TO BE ON THIS COMMITTEE?

I MEAN, IT'S GIVING A LITTLE BIT OF HEARTBURN FOR SOME FOLKS OUT THERE.

>> Sen. Snyder: WELL, TRUTHFULLY, IT MAKES ME THINK THEY WEREN'T LISTENING IN COMMITTEE DURING THE SESSION WHEN THE PEOPLE, ADVOCATES, WERE TESTIFYING TO THIS.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I AM TOTALLY SURPRISED IN THE LEGISLATIVE APPOINTMENTS, AT LEAST THE VAST MAJORITY, BECAUSE THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF IT, AGAIN, HAVING A COMMITTEE, WAS TO GET IT OUT OF POLITICAL HANDS.

AND IT'S NOT THAT YOU DON'T WANT MAYBE ONE OR TWO FOR SOME INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE, BUT TO PUT IN THAT MANY OF THE COMMITTEE, AND THEN SECONDLY, NO NATIVE AMERICANS ON IT.

I MEAN, REALLY?

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT?

AND THEN THIRDLY, AS THE LADIES HAVE MENTIONED, ONE WOMAN.

I MEAN, COME ON, FOLKS.

WE'RE TRYING TO REPRESENT NEW MEXICO AND GET SOME FAIR AND EQUITABLE REDISTRICTING, AND I FEEL LIKE I CAN SPEAK JUST A LITTLE BIT.

IN 2001, I WAS FIRST YEAR IN THE SENATE, AND I WAS PART OF THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE.

OF COURSE, WE HAD 9/11, AND SO THAT KIND OF CHANGED THE WHOLE SCOPE OF THINGS.

AND THEN THE SECOND TIME AROUND, IN 2012, IT WAS MY DISTRICT THAT WAS PART OF THE BIG LEGAL CASE, BECAUSE IT WAS -- THEY LITERALLY WENT AROUND LIKE THIS, DOWN, ACROSS HERE AND DOWN HERE, AND PUT MY PRECINCT, JUST MY PRECINCT, INTO SENATOR JERRY ORTIZ Y PINO'S DISTRICT, AND CERTAINLY NOTHING IN COMMON.

ANYWAY, IT WENT TO COURT AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS, ONE OF THE JUDGE'S FINAL QUESTIONS, WAS ONE, IS EVERYBODY IN AGREEMENT ON THIS COMPROMISE, AND TWO, IS SENATOR SNYDER BACK IN HER DISTRICT?

BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A BLATANT GERRYMANDERING.

AND THAT WAS BEING DONE BY LEGISLATORS.

AND I'M SORRY, I KNOW AND I UNDERSTAND THE FEELING OF SELF-PROTECTION WHEN YOU ARE ELECTED AND YOU'VE GONE TO ALL THAT EFFORT AND ENERGY TO GET ELECTED, BUT YOU'RE REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO, AND WE HAVEN'T BEEN, IN MY MIND, WE HAVEN'T BEEN CLEARLY DOING THAT FOR MANY YEARS.

SO TO PUT IN A POLITICAL PERSUASION, AN OVERWHELMING POLITICAL PERSUASION, DIFFERENT OPINIONS, BUT PERSUASION ON THIS COMMITTEE, IS JUST ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS, AND CERTAINLY DOESN'T MEET WHAT MY EXPECTATION WAS OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

>> Gene: FAIR ENOUGH.

SOPHIE, INTERESTING POINT HERE IN ONE OF THE NEWS ARTICLES, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT MAYBE THESE FOLKS MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN WHO THE OTHERS WERE CHOOSING.

>> Sophie: SORT OF A PRISONER'S DILEMMA THERE, YEAH.

>> Gene: EXACTLY.

CAN WE THEN BACK UP AND REDO THIS?

I MEAN, AS THE SENATOR JUST POINTED OUT, AND LAURA BEFORE HER, I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW CREDIBLE -- AND I'M BEING VERY CAREFUL WITH THAT WORD.

BUT WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, FOLKS ARE GOING TO HAVE A BIT OF A HEARTBURN WITH THIS.

SHOULD WE BACK UP AND START OVER?

>> Sophie: WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN.

SO THAT'S THE START.

YOU KNOW, HERE'S THE THING, THOUGH.

THE WAY THAT THIS COMMISSION WAS BUILT, THEY MADE THE CULTURAL DIVERSITY, THE GEOGRAPHICAL DIVERSITY ASPIRATIONAL.

THEY DIDN'T MAKE THEM A REQUIREMENT.

AND SO WHY WOULDN'T THEY SAY, RURAL REPRESENTATION MANDATED, WHATEVER THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE, HOWEVER THEY WOULD DO THAT.

THEY CHOSE NOT TO.

BUT I THINK, GENE, THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT.

IF YOU'RE NOT SURE, IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN AND YOU GET TO A POINT AND YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT THE OTHER PARTY IS GOING TO DO, YOU'RE PROBABLY GOING TO LAY OUT YOUR STRONGEST, MOST IMPACTFUL PERSON/PEOPLE FOR THE COMMITTEE.

I THINK IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT THE TWO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE NOT APPOINTED BY THE PARTIES SEEM LIKE REALLY STRONG PARTICIPANTS.

THEY SEEM LIKE GOOD CHOICES.

I DO BELIEVE THAT JUSTICE CHAVEZ, WHO I WORKED WITH IN THE PAST, I DO BELIEVE THAT HE WILL WORK HARD TO ENSURE THAT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THAT THIS COMMITTEE DOES THE WORK IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, AND DOES IT WITH AS CLOSE TO A HUMAN HAND AS POSSIBLE GIVEN THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE.

BUT LET'S FACE IT, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE LEGISLATURE, WHAT THE GOVERNMENT BUILT WHEN THEY BUILT THIS.

SO DO THEY NEED TO COME BACK AND REASSESS?

MAYBE.

IT WON'T EFFECT THIS ROUND.

>> Gene: LAURA, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, THEN.

IN THE PAST, AS THE SENATOR MENTIONED JUST A MINUTE AGO, OTHER REDISTRICTING FIGHTS, THEY ENDED UP IN COURT.

ARE WE JUST GOING TO END UP IN COURT ANYWAY HERE ABOUT THESE BOUNDARIES?

>> Laura: ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, HERE'S THE PROBLEM.

AND I THINK SOPHIE MAKES A VERY GOOD POINT.

THESE RURAL REPRESENTATIONS, THE DIVERSITY IN TERMS OF NATIVE AMERICAN PRESENCE, MORE WOMEN, THESE THINGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN REQUIRED.

THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT INTO THE CONCEPT OF THE COMMITTEE, ITSELF, AND NOT JUST ASPIRATIONAL, AS SOPHIE SAID, BECAUSE YOU END UP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE SELF-SERVING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FOUR PEOPLE WHO WERE APPOINTED BY SITTING LEGISLATORS, EVERY ONE OF THEM REPRESENTS THEIR INTERESTS.

NOT JUST THEM, BUT THEIR PARTIES INTERESTS.

AND I HAPPEN TO KNOW ALL FOUR OF THOSE PEOPLE FAIRLY WELL.

SENATOR MICHAEL SANCHEZ, SENATOR LISA CURTIS -- BOTH OF THEM FORMER SENATORS, BUT OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO USE THEIR TITLES, AS I DO WITH SENATOR SNYDER.

AND OF COURSE, RYAN -- I CAN NEVER SAY HIS NAME.

>> Gene: WE'RE SUPER TIGHT ON TIME, GUYS.

I REALIZE YOUR POINT.

HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO.

ON OUR WEBSITE, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A LIST OF THOSE FOLKS THAT LAURA WAS STARTING TO MENTION, BECAUSE THE COMMITTEE ITSELF, THE MAKE-UP, IS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.

AND THAT REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE WILL BE HOLDING NUMEROUS PUBLIC HEARINGS ON THE PROCESS OVER THE SUMMER AND FALL, SO BE SURE TO FOLLOW US ON FACEBOOK FOR UPDATES AND COVERAGE OF THOSE HEARINGS.

THIS IS AN ISSUE WE PLAN TO CONTINUE FOLLOWING CLOSELY RIGHT HERE ON THIS SHOW AS PART OF OUR YOUR NEW MEXICO GOVERNMENT PROJECT.

>> Gene: IS THERE ANY BETTER DISTRACTION POSSIBLE THAN THAT UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENON REPORT WE DISCUSSED?

THE IDEA OF THE EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS STOPPING BY IS THE EVERLASTING GOBSTOPPER OF THE AMERICAN CULTURE.

NOW, AS WE DISCUSSED AT THE ROUNDTABLE, THE GOVERNMENT WILL OFFER NO FIRM ANSWER ON WHO OR WHAT THESE NAVY PILOTS ARE SEEING IN THE FULL REPORT, BUT FOR ME, DON'T BOTHER TO CUE THE X-FILES THEME MUSIC.

I'M FIRMLY IN THE EARTHBOUND IN ORIGIN CAMP, AND LIKELY A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.

WHY ARE THESE NAVY SIGHTINGS NEARLY ALWAYS IN RESTRICTED MILITARY AIRSPACE?

THAT PROVES IT TO ME.

NOW, WATCHING THE DECLASSIFIED VIDEOS OF THOSE UAPs FROM THE U.S. NAVY PILOTS, THE SHAPES ARE THE BIGGEST MYSTERY, BUT I'M REMINDED OF ANOTHER CRAFT, IF YOU WILL, WITH AN UNORTHODOX SHAPE DEVELOPED BY A MILITARY FORCE THAT ALSO MADE NEWS THIS WEEK.

THE NAVY REVEALED STARTLING PICTURES OF THEIR NEW UNMANNED DRONE THAT CONNECTED TO A NAVY F/A SUPER HORNET IN FLIGHT WITH A HOSE AND REFUELED THE BIRD IN POLITE.

IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER, YOU'D SWEAR THAT THING WAS FROM ANOTHER GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY.

SO THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU CONSIDER YOUR SKEPTICISM METER WHEN THAT PENTAGON REPORT COMES OUT.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

ALSO, A BIG THANK YOU TO KOB AND KOAT TV FOR SHARING THEIR FOOTAGE OF THE LAS CONCHAS FIRE WITH US IN THIS MONTH'S 'OUR LAND.'

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK InFOCUS.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO InFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.

AND THE NEEPER NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAMMING FUND FOR KNME-TV.

AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.