>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Julie Philipp, filling in for Evan Dawson.

>> Our Connections this hour begins in 2020, in the midst of the global pandemic.

That year, visitation records were shattered in New York's Adirondack Park.

People craving exercise and social interaction off Zoom left the confines of their homes and headed to the 6 million acre Treasure trailhead.

Parking lots filled before sunrise, cars lined nearby roads.

Mountain summits sometimes felt like block parties, a place that had been steadily growing in popularity exploded.

But even with the pandemic behind us, the crowds are still coming.

Adirondack Explorer reported that in 2020, for Essex County, home to Lake Placid and the High Peaks, shattered records for overnight stays in hotels, motels and inns, the state constitution requires that the publicly owned parts of this park about 2.6 million acres, be kept forever wild.

And while it's vague on what that means, there is no question that hordes of hikers are tipping the balance.

So the state Department of Environmental Conservation and others have been closely studying this trend.

And recently the Dec released a visitor use management recommendations report for the High Peaks region.

We'll spend the first half hour diving into that before we shift gears and talk about protecting public lands in general, and how to stay safe while you're out there having fun.

We've got a full house.

My guest today include Katie Petronis, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, deputy commissioner for Natural Resources, Josh Clague Dec Forester and Forest Preserve and conservation chief.

In studio.

We've got Courtney Worrell.

She's executive director of the Adirondack Mountain Club, and Sarah Mastro from the Genesee Valley chapter of the Adirondack Mountain Club.

And later in the program, we will be joined by Dec forest Ranger Mark Brand.

Thank you all so much for being here today.

I really appreciate it.

So I want to begin, first of all, you know, in some ways this is a good problem to have.

Not only is it good for the businesses, you know, in this remote area of the state, it's heartening to see people off their screens, you know, enjoying the great outdoors.

So the two of you, I presume, do a lot of hiking out there.

You are a steward, I believe, to some of the trails.

What makes the Adirondacks so special to you and to so many other people?

>> Yeah, I, I have, uh, started actively hiking in the Adirondacks in 2017.

So I was coming in, you know, as things were kind of ramping up.

But for me, it's, it's just been this incredible.

>> Little closer to your mic so we can hear you.

Thanks.

>> It's been this incredible, um, way to escape the, the rigors of, you know, just day to day life.

Um, I enjoy some of the solitude that I get in the wilderness, but I also enjoy the Connections that I've made with, with fellow hikers and paddlers, um, on the trails and, and in the, the many lakes and ponds up there.

Um, so for me, it's just been, um, a great, you know, mental health reset when I need to, to have one.

>> Is that how you experience it as well?

>> Yeah, I experienced it also for all those things and just the uniqueness of the Adirondacks.

There's nothing else like it.

And the way that we can bring together people who are experiencing it for the first time.

That's one of my favorite things to see and be a part of.

>> Okay, so I'm sure you've seen changes in recent years, not always for the good.

And I want to turn now to Katie Petronis, DC deputy Commissioner for Natural Resources, to talk a little bit about what the Dec's role is when it comes to taking care of the Adirondack Forest Preserve.

Katie.

>> Sure.

Thanks, Julie.

And let me start by just saying thank you so much for having us.

We're really excited to be here and looking forward to the conversation.

Um, and I think you, you know, set it up well by describing sort of the increase that we've seen to visitation.

And in talking to Sarah about her experience here since 2017, I'm sort of the other end of that spectrum.

I actually grew up in the high peaks in the Adirondacks.

And actually on the Adirondack Lodge Road.

So I spent a lot of my childhood, um, experiencing hikers in the area, seeing what the trails looked like and seeing them now.

Um, and being at CDC feels, you know, full circle for me because we as land managers of, you know, more than 5 million acres of land across the state are really responsible for making sure that people are having a safe and enjoyable visitor experience for making sure that people can come to state lands and really have a fantastic time and learn how to be the next generation of conservationists.

Um, as you said, I think it's a great thing that more people are coming to state lands and visiting our spaces and learning about nature and enjoying those public health benefits.

Um, it's really heartening to see.

And we as land managers also then have the responsibility of making sure that not only people are safe when they're doing it, but also that the visitation is not impacting the ecological resources, the natural resources, water quality, um, threatened and endangered species and making sure that our our trails are stable, um, to make sure that the, that the visitation that we're seeing is not having a negative impact on the environment that folks are so interested in learning about and why they're out there.

>> Um, so as part of that responsibility, the DC conducted what's called a visitor use management study.

Could you or Josh give us some background on what that is and how it was conducted?

The process?

>> Sure I can, I'll kick it off and sort of offer a big picture information about the visitor use management plan and study.

And then Josh can, can take it away from there.

But in general, visitor use management planning is becoming sort of a gold standard for management planning for land managers across the nation.

Um, the Park Service has been using it for years.

Fish and Wildlife Service uses it.

Other states are using it.

So it really is an important new tool in understanding how to best manage our natural resources.

Um, and the visitor use management framework looks at a couple of things that are really important.

One, it really focuses on public engagement and public input.

So a big part of the process is learning what the public wants to see on these lands, what their visitor experience is, um, what they're missing and how they're using the landscape.

Um, and then it also focuses on coming up with a plan to monitor those lands.

Once we identify sort of what the ideal conditions are for the land, the desired conditions is what visitor management planning calls it.

Um, once we figure out sort of what experience people are looking to have, what kind of estate will be best for the ecological resources, then we need to figure out how to monitor the landscape and really take a look at what the current conditions are and how far they might be from those desired conditions.

And then we pull all of that together.

And based on that, we come up with, you know, a set of recommendations and tools to help us as land managers meet those desired conditions.

Um, and that's what visitor use management planning at its core is intended to do.

Um, we thought that the time was right to really engage in that process here because as you described, we're seeing so many people who love coming to the high peaks and in the other visitor use management planning effort that we engaged in coming to the Catskill area and the Catskills, we're just seeing such an uptick in visitation, and it really feels important to make sure that we're studying all aspects of that visitation to manage for it.

Josh, anything to add there?

>> Yeah, I could add a little bit more about the project itself.

Um, so the visitor use management framework, um, was designed specifically for public land management agencies, although it can be used by, you know, others as well.

And it was designed with the recognition that public agencies have this sort of, this dual mandate and that sometimes can be in conflict, which is, as we stated earlier, we want as many people to get out and enjoy these lands who want to.

But at the same time, we have statutory and policy requirements to protect these lands.

Um, protect the natural resources and oftentimes to protect the experiences of the people using those lands.

And sometimes when everyone wants to use a place at once, some of those protections can be put compromised or put at risk.

So as you mentioned early on, you know, in 2020, we saw this tremendous use.

It was actually building before that, and it continued to build after 2020.

And, um, we had a stakeholder working group that was assembled by our commissioner at the time who was tasked with coming up with some ideas for how can we responsibly manage some of these impacts or perceived impacts that we were starting to see in the region?

And so one of the primary recommendations of that group, the High Peaks Advisory Group, was to take advantage of this visitor use management framework that the federal government had developed.

We, as a state agency, should use it.

We manage lands that are in many ways similar to some of the lands that the feds manage.

And so we took that recommendation to heart, and we commissioned, um, this process, this project that culminated in this recommendations report.

And that was a two year process that, well, more than two years, but really two years of active work with consultants, with stakeholders.

It involved collecting a lot of data on the ground.

It involved periodic meetings with stakeholders, a couple of public meetings, and, um, we can talk a little bit more about this later, but, you know, really just, you know, fulfilled kind of the view and process to the core, like in terms of just the steps that it takes to develop the recommendations, but also the future steps that we, that were recommended to Dec in terms of implementing that report.

>> Could you describe for us some of the impacts that were found on the specific.

I know you divided them into biological, physical, social.

But what does that look like?

What does this overuse in.

At times in places look like when you're in the mountains?

>> Sure.

So, um, I'll say visitor use management planning.

First of all, can really focus on the ecological degradations.

Or it can also focus on the social experience.

And that's what we did here.

So this visitor use management planning effort really focused on the visitor experience, how people are experiencing these trails and public safety.

Are they having a safe experience?

Um, and so to answer your question, what are some of the impacts you see focused specifically there?

Um, you know, you look at when people arrive at a trailhead, are they able to park there?

And if they're able to park there, are they able to park there safely and legally?

Um, are they having to park on a road illegally?

Does that put them at risk on the roadway?

Um, are they not able to start their trip because they can't find parking?

So those are the kinds of things that you can find just at the very beginning of a trip.

Um, then as somebody embarks on a hike, there's a question from a social perspective, um, about what they're seeing along the trail.

So how many people they're running into as they're getting from the trailhead to the summit, how many groups they're interacting with?

Is it so many that they're feeling like they're really not having a wilderness experience anymore?

Um, that's another thing that sort of a social study on visitor use management will look at.

And then finally, what is the experience up at the summit?

Um, you know, when you look out at the summit, your view, how many folks are you seeing in that view?

And is that making you feel like you're not having a wilderness experience?

Is it detracting from your hike?

Are you not able to enjoy your hike?

Are you not able to find places to sit at the summit, which can actually lead to ecological degradation?

Right.

More people up there might then lead people to wander and try to find an alternative location to have a sandwich.

Um, so it was focused really on the social aspects.

And those are some of the things that you can find that people are saying, um, they're impacted by when there are high levels of use.

>> Mhm.

And the Adirondack Mountain Club, you've been up there a lot.

Are you, what are you seeing when you go up there compared to a few years ago?

>> Yeah.

So we, we actually own property at the end of, Adirondack Lodge Road.

And there are five trailheads that that leave from our parking lot.

We have visitor center and a lodge and a lake.

And so we have many, many programs that are based on making sure that people go prepared and that they and that when they're on the trails and when they're on the summit's, that they are doing things that are not damaging to the environment, the ecology, to wildlife, to vulnerable and endangered plants, and that they go and they're they're hiking safely.

And especially for the first time.

So we have an extensive amount of work that we're doing.

We're funded partly by the state for that work as well.

So we are seeing we had seen the increase.

Of course, we know our parking lot is is it sold out.?

>> Is pretty busy on the.

>> Weekend.

>> On the weekends, up to 800 cars.

Yeah.

>> And I think the point is the weekends, in the summer weekends, I think other times it's, it's not as much of a challenge.

So one of the things I'll, I'll just say just to jump in on all of this is that we're very, very happy that DC has moved forward with this visitor use management planning is core part of the work that national parks do.

It all comes down to what your goals are and how you're defining things and what what data you're collecting to, to meet the definitions of what you need to do.

So, um, so anyway, we have a lot to say about that.

>> And not a ton of time.

So I want to go back to Josh and talk about these.

The report calls them desired conditions.

It's sort of like the baseline.

Um, can you quickly summarize, you know, what we should be aiming for and how close we are to those desired conditions up there.

>> Yeah.

So that's something that's unique to the Vom process is that, you know, rather than starting what you with what you have, it allows us to step back and kind of contemplate and articulate, what do we want this place to be?

And so we work closely with other DC staff, with stakeholders.

We even invited the public to participate in this and identify like, what does this wilderness mean to you?

What should it be?

And part of that, at least for us, is staff, you know, involved.

You know, like I said earlier, our statutory requirement, the Adirondack Park State Land Master Plan, which is overseen by the Adirondack Park Agency, provides some guidelines for wilderness.

And so that was kind of our starting point.

But like the Constitution, it's sparse in some details.

And so it gave us the space to kind of identify what a wilderness experience should be.

Since this project focused on, you know, experience and safety.

And that's what we did, the report, uh, has several pages on what we think the desired experience should be.

It should allow for some social elements, but it really should not, uh, create conditions where people feel crowded and crowded is kind of the key word that we use throughout the report.

And to kind of figure out what crowding meant individuals, people were surveyed at the trailhead and the stakeholders and the staff were also asked to identify what crowding meant to them.

>> Okay.

So, um, some of the, the things in the report, and again, these are not adopted or even recommended recommendations, I think at this point, but are are limiting, um, parking, having more shuttle service, having reservation systems like they have at a lot of the national parks.

Now, where are we in terms of actually seeing changes as a result of this?

Recommendations report?

>> You know, I think we've still got a lot of work to do.

I think the report, um, you know, was generated by a consultant that we engaged a national leader in this kind of work.

And, you know, as I, as I mentioned, it's really focused specifically on the social and the public safety.

There are a number of other decision making factors that go into land management planning.

For example, um, the ecological side, right?

What, what is happening at these same locations from a natural resources perspective, we're doing that work, um, in-house and with partners, we actually just finished a six year study in partnership with the Suny School of Environmental Science and Forestry, um, to develop what we call ecological scorecards at some key locations in the high peaks, um, to give us a sense of how visitation is impacting, um, ecological resources.

And that will be a big piece of this.

Also, the public comment process that we just finished is another huge piece of this.

As Josh mentioned, the consultants engaged the public.

There were public meetings, large public meetings, and there was a core stakeholder group who they worked really closely with, including the towns.

Um, but now that we have the reports and the recommendations of the consultant, we have a real opportunity to have heard from all members of the public and see, um, even more what the public thinks about these recommendations.

Do they want to see some of the recommendations that are outlined in the plan?

Um, realized or not.

And so we now, you know, we got a lot of feedback, which is fantastic and is a testament to how many people care about the high peaks.

Um, and now we have to go through that, review it and really understand what it's going to mean for land management planning.

>> Okay.

And Courtney, does the Adirondack Mountain Club have any, um, stance now, what kind of input have you been providing to the DC?

>> Yeah.

So it goes back to what Katie was saying, that there's a lot more work to be done and a lot of study, especially on the ecological and the physical impacts, but also what we would say is that we would really like the, the DC as it moves forward to use more of our data.

We are an extension of, of DC in the sense that we are meeting directly with people on the peaks, and our staff have the expertise, so that that would be really important.

The other thing is that we we do see a permit system which was mentioned in the report as a very, very much a last resort type of, uh, type of plan.

There are many, many other things that can come in before permits.

And one would be to provide more capacity for the education that is needed with hikers as well as the, the stewardship on the high peaks and on the trails to prevent ecological damage, which we know we have the results really, really works.

So instead of limiting people, it's it can be that we're doing much more to manage and fully funding and bringing that to the full capacity because people, when they know what to do, they generally know what to do, right?

>> You know, we're going to talk about that in the next half hour, the leave No trace and how to responsibly use the trails so that you're not damaging the ecosystem.

But we just have a few minutes left.

Um, Josh and Katie, would you talk about this summer?

Clearly, you're not in a position yet to, um, to implement any big changes this summer.

It doesn't sound like yet you're still going through a lot and balancing all the different surveys and research and public comment and all of that for people that plan to go up this summer, we're about to hit, um, the summer season, the weekends, there's lots of warm weather ahead.

What can people be doing to be mindful of, of the overuse and mismanagement or not mismanagement, but the need to manage the trails this summer when they head up.

>> So I'll say, um, Courtney is 100% right.

The education and awareness is such a critical part of this equation and such an important piece of land use management.

Um, and for us, we think that that's going to be really important this summer.

It's been really important in past summers.

Um, you know, before you go outside, check our websites, check the website, check the ADK website, get your, um, get information as accurately as you can.

And then, you know, one thing that we've been employing, and I'll just say, I'm really grateful that we have a final budget recently announced and that in that budget, we have maintained historically high funding for environmental conservation work through a $425 million EPF.

And now a $25 million bump in through the Sustainable Futures Program and stewardship funding and land acquisition.

Um and so with all of that additional funding, we have been able to create things like our front country stewards programs, working with partners, um, like ADK and others to really get people out at our key trailheads and provide education to the public.

So throughout the summer, you're going to see stations, deck stations, you're going to meet 80 K summit stewards.

And when you do that and you get to those trailheads, go visit them, find out what they want to tell you about the current trail conditions.

Um, learn from them about, you know, leave no trace principles.

They can provide great information about how crowded a particular trail might be.

And an alternative hike that you might be able to take that's a lot quieter.

Um, so really seek out those resources because we've invested a lot in them and we're really excited about them.

And, um, they're, they're working well for us.

>> And, and take the ten essentials with you.

Make sure.

>> We're going to get into the.

>> Ten.

>> Essentials the next, next half hour.

Um, so it sounds like the learning is, will be an ongoing thing for the public that uses the Adirondacks.

When might there be some sort of final.

Here's what we're doing.

This is the report of the you know, how we're going to respond to this level of use in the Adirondacks.

Is there a final date that you see in the future?

>> You know, there's there's not.

And it's because I think that we're probably going to take the recommendations and use them over time, gradually.

Um, Courtney mentioned a d k considering things like permits, a tool of last resort, the department agrees and has always considered those a tool of last resort.

And I think that the report makes a number of recommendations.

Um, that really don't have anything to do with permits that are about the education and the educational opportunities.

It makes specific recommendations for, you know, website improvements and trip planning improvements and regional promotion opportunities.

It makes recommendations about monitoring.

So will, you'll probably see some of those things rolling out gradually.

Um, rather than just a final set of recommendations about sort of how we're going to manage.

We're learning as we go, um, we're managing annually and, you know, in five year chunks and, and we are learning from the public and ourselves and new tools that are coming out.

So I think this report will continue to be really useful as one element of our planning.

I think we'll pull from it in years to come.

Um, and I think it'll be a piece of what we're using in partnership with lots of others to better manage lands into the future.

>> Okay.

Thank you.

This has been really informative.

I'd like to thank my guests.

This half of the program, Katie Petronis, New York State Dec deputy Commissioner for Natural Resources Josh Clague Dec Forester and Forest Preserve and conservation chief.

Courtney Worrell, executive director of the Adirondack Mountain Club.

And Sarah Mastro from the Genesee Valley chapter of the Adirondack Mountain Club.

I think Sarah's sticking around.

Um, we're going to take a short break.

Then we come back.

We will also have Dec Forest Ranger Mark Brand with us to talk about the Dec's Love Our New York Lands initiative, and we'll hear more about how to say, stay safe while you're out there hiking and camping this summer.

Thank you all for being here.

We'll be right back.

>> I'm Evan Dawson coming up in our second hour, we continue on our theme of looking back at some of the top conversations on housing in the last year on Connections.

This was a conversation about Overbidding.

Seems like if you want a house these days, you've got a way overbid for it.

But some research indicates that there's a winner's curse that comes with that.

We're going to talk about it next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bob Johnson, autogroup.com.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Julie Philipp sitting in for Evan Dawson, and we've been talking about the record crowds in the Adirondacks.

But the Adirondacks are not the only game in town.

New York has a lot of public lands where you can hike and camp, and we are joined now by Dec forest Ranger Mark Brand and Sarah Mastro is still here.

She's with the Genesee Valley chapter of the Adirondack Adirondack Mountain Club.

Oh, we we do not have Mark quite yet.

So it's a you Sarah you're you're all the so the we're going to talk.

I guess since we don't have Mark here yet, we're going to move ahead to the.

Ten hiking essentials.

And I have a list of them.

You look like a deer in the headlights.

>> I'm good.

>> What are those?

So let's start the ten hiking essentials.

Um, if you're going to be going out there, um, in order to be safe, it's recommended that you have these ten hiking essentials.

And I want to walk through what those are.

One of them is navigation.

>> Yep.

>> So explain what we should be doing in terms of navigation.

When we head out to the Adirondacks or anywhere else, there's like 4.5 million acres of public lands in New York state.

And Adirondacks are only about half of that.

So there's a lot of them out there.

Navigation.

How do we find our way around?

What should we be doing?

>> So navigation is a really broad topic.

You know, traditionally that has meant a map and compass.

And those are very reliable tools.

Um, they're not used by, uh, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people will rely on phone maps.

Um, and, you know, other things that might not be as reliable as a map and compass.

Um, so we do like to encourage people to have that knowledge.

Um, it's something that the batteries won't die on.

Um, you can get by with just some basic map knowledge, even if you're not a map and compass together expert.

Um, so that's something that we, we definitely, um, encourage people to get at least a basic understanding of.

>> Okay, the second one, insulation.

>> Yeah.

So this is obviously important, not only in the summer, um, but especially in the winter time.

So if you have people that are recreating in the, the winter, you know, you're going to have some sort of insulating layer, um, a base layer that can wick sweat.

Um, and then a protective layer if you have some sort of inclement weather, you know, rain or snow that is coming down from the trees.

>> Okay.

They're telling me that Mark Brand is now with.

>> Us.

All right.

>> Mark, are you here?

>> I'm here.

How are you doing?

>> I'm fine.

Thanks.

Welcome to the program.

This is deck forest ranger Mark Brand.

Um, I, I want to we were starting to go through the ten hiking essentials, but I want to back up a little bit because I don't think people really know what a forest ranger does.

So I wanted to ask you, Mark, what does a forest ranger do?

>> Yeah, that's a great question.

Um, so forest rangers are responsible for the care, custody and control of state land.

But what that really looks like is search and rescue.

Uh, wildfire and law enforcement on state land.

Our day to day can vary from a pretty casual hike where we're talking to the public about preparedness, um, camping preparedness, hiking preparedness, um, just giving them recommendations on good places to go hike, camp, uh, recreate in the woods.

Then we might get a phone call that there's a rescue on a mountain and we get picked up by a helicopter somewhere and fly to a remote location to perform a rescue.

Um, there could be a swift water rescue, technical rope applications.

So it's a little bit of everything in the woods.

If there's a problem, we get thrown at it and we're kind of expected to, to do our best.

>> To figure it out.

That to figure it out and to.

>> Get any help that we might need.

>> Okay.

>> And in a minute, I want to talk about, um, the, the efforts called land Love Our New York Lands campaign to protect some of this, but going back now to the hiking essentials, because I'm sure you see everything under the sun out there, people who are not prepared.

And I occasionally see the, there's an email that comes out every week that tells what the Rangers have been up to for the week and, and light is a big one.

That's number three on our list.

People just don't think about the fact that they might get stuck out there after dark.

Um, it happens, doesn't it?

>> It happens more often than you would think.

Uh, a saying that we like to use is in regards to headlamps.

One is none and two is one.

Always have multiple headlamps.

Don't rely on your phone as your light source.

And um, don't plan the hike to only take a few hours.

Something might happen.

It might take longer than expected.

You may get injured.

You may find yourself helping someone else out.

So we recommend carrying multiple headlamps, extra batteries, and being prepared and planning for the scenario where you're out there longer than expected.

>> Okay, next on the list is first aid supplies.

Now, Sarah, I know, um, to, you know, most people think I'll bring Band-Aids, you know, is there something that that's essential that's in your first aid kit?

If you're going out hiking, or does it depend on where you're hiking, that kind of thing?

>> Yeah.

For me, um, when I build my first aid kit, I like to think of like, this sounds bad, but all the things that could happen to me along the way.

Um, you know, if I know I'm prone to blisters with a certain type of footwear that I'm wearing, I'm going to bring a little blister kit.

Um, if I have some sort of, um, allergy, I'm going to want to bring my medications for that.

So thinking about things that, that you might need, uh, in the event of a bee sting or something like that.

Um, the basics, you know, the Band-Aids, um, first aid ointment.

If I'm out there for a multiple day trip, I'm going to bring a little bit more and I'm going to be prepared to, to manage a potentially larger injury that I have in the field.

Or, you know, someone else on my team has.

Um, because you likely are going to be farther from the trailhead and you're going to be managing that on your own before, you know, someone like the DC or EMS can arrive.

>> So okay.

And a lot of the things on this list are pretty common sense.

Um, you know, nutrition, water bug spray.

But Mark, what are, what are some of the, um, in addition to not having light, what are some of the things you see often when, when a hiker is unprepared?

Um, something simple they could have done before they left, but did not do.

>> Um.

Planned their route, had a, it's really important that people have a good map and that they spend some time looking at the map, knowing their planned route and keeping track of where they are as they're hiking along.

Because once you're turned around, you can be, you can get lost relatively easily.

But if you keep track with the map of your progress, it's a lot harder to get mixed up on the trails.

So I would say a good waterproof map and ideally a compass.

And knowing how to use it would be.

>> Know where you're going.

So people getting lost is one of the big ones for you that you see as a ranger.

See up there.

>> Uh, so it really depends a lot on, on the, the situation.

Oftentimes people get lost, especially in the winter time.

It's harder to see some of the trail markers, harder to see some of the trails.

Um, exposure just it's colder up here.

And when you go up in elevation, you lose 5 or 6 degrees per thousand feet.

So being unprepared in terms of the temperature and how cold it's going to be, especially in the colder seasons, um, early spring, late fall, it's easy to get caught off guard and not have enough stuff to keep you warm.

Then you get cold.

You don't have enough snacks.

You're getting really cold.

So I always plan, um, for the worst situation.

I bring extra layers, extra food.

I'm handing it out on the trail to folks.

Yeah, yeah.

>> And I also see in those weekly emails, um, water, it seems like people underestimate how much water and even food they might need for a day hike, especially with the heat, I would imagine.

>> Yeah.

This time of year, it's, it's really, it's getting warm fast and it's easy to run out of, um, run out of water within the first few miles of your hike.

Uh, there's a lot of products out there now.

Sawyer Lifestraw that makes portable filters.

I carry one and I'll just fill up water in any stream I pass to keep my supplies full and drink through one of those portable filters.

This time of year.

>> Okay, I want to talk about the Love Our New York Lands campaign.

Um, it's designed to help protect and care for public lands in the state.

And there are a lot of them.

There's more than 4.5 million acres of public land.

Um, what can you tell us about that campaign?

>> Uh, it's.

>>, it has a really a lot of information to, for beginner hikers on just how to be good stewards of the environment in which we live and how to be good neighbors for the wildlife and all the other people that are using state land.

Uh, nature is a great equalizer.

Everyone out there comes from a different background, but they're generally out there for the same purpose, to enjoy themselves, to get some peace and quiet or relax in nature.

Or maybe they want to hike some of the peaks and get a really good workout in, but, um, I think it's really important that we just respect everyone out, out in the woods when we're there.

That's cleaning up after yourself.

It's planning ahead of time.

Um, if the campsite you want to be at is taken, have a backup plan.

Just think about everyone else who's in the woods when you're there and try to be a good, friendly neighbor.

>> All right.

>> Sarah, we touched on the leave no trace a little bit in the first half hour.

Can you explain for people who might not understand, you know, really specifically, what does leave no trace entail?

What do you do?

>> Yeah.

Leave No trace is is outdoor ethics.

It's it's a way of operating in the outdoors that, uh, you know, like, like we said, it's respecting the, um, the resources that you're recreating in, it's respecting other people on the trails, um, and really preserving that resource for people to use for generations to come and allowing them to enjoy it safely too.

Because a lot of those leave no trace principles are good for self as well.

>> Well.

>> What are those principles?

>> Yeah.

>> So.

>> Um.

>> The first plan ahead and prepare two travel and camp on durable surfaces.

Um, there's a.

>> You know.

>> What does that mean.

Durable surfaces.

>> So durable surfaces is a, is, is a great question.

So you, you have rock is a pretty durable surface.

Um, snow at a certain depth is a very durable surface.

But if you're thinking about some, the alpine flora on a summit, um, those are, are very impacted by just a few footsteps.

Um, and they take years if they ever do come back.

So something like that, uh, water areas where you might be impacting fish or small invertebrates are another really, um, protected, uh, ecological environment, but just being cognizant of, of where you're traveling, where you're camping.

Um, good campsites are found, not made.

Um, you know, you shouldn't just be setting up camp and disturbing an area wherever you feel that you should camp that night.

Um, and that goes along with, you know, the other things that come from camping, wildfires and, um, and feeding animals when you shouldn't.

Um, they're pretty basic rules.

It's just a matter of how you apply them.

>> Okay.

And you talked about not setting up in a camp, not an unofficial, basically campground making, you know, what's wrong with that?

If it's a beautiful spot, it's quiet, it's by a lake and you just want to put up your tent and it'll be gone before morning and no one will know what happens.

>> I think people underestimate the impact that actually staying overnight or for a couple of days will have on a certain area.

And the places that are designated spots have been selected by the Dec or whoever the land manager is, um, as a place that can, um, can withstand the usage that it would get for, you know, however many nights they expect people to be there.

>> So there's somebody maintaining it.

Yeah.

So Mark, do you see a lot of that people making their own trails, making their own campsites?

>> Absolutely.

Uh, illegal campsites is something that we're always looking for in the backcountry.

And it's, it's really easy to see a beautiful stream or lake and want to put a campsite right next to it.

Um, but it's not often the case that people, other people don't notice it.

And when you leave that spot, the ground is impacted.

You can tell someone's been there from a little bit of foot traffic and it attracts more users.

Next thing you know, you're packing down all the vegetation in a riparian or a river area or on an alpine, uh, in alpine vegetation, which doesn't doesn't recover well.

Um, so we're always looking for illegal sites.

They, they pop up all over the, all over the place.

>> And what happens when you find them?

What, what, what, what is the consequences for the person who set up camp?

>> Well, that's, that's really it depends a bit on the situation, but it's a ticketable offense.

Um, illegal camping, uh, can be above certain elevations or in certain areas.

If I catch it in its early and they haven't been there a long time, maybe they're just setting up camp.

Um, I like to educate people on the negative effects of camping in those areas.

Even though it's a beautiful spot, it's going to degrade the environment there for all the future users and go ahead and recommend some areas that are comparable, but may be a designated site already, and which is a spot that, you know, has been like there's, there's designated sites in these beautiful areas that, okay, instead of letting folks camp all over the lake, we're going to pick ten spots and allow those to be more heavily impacted.

So redirect folks to designated sites, give them a little bit of education.

And it's kind of a win across the board.

>> Okay.

>> But going back now to the ten hiking essentials, we took a little pause from them.

Um, one of them is, you know, insect protection.

And that used to mean, you know, mosquitoes, but now there are ticks.

Um, what can people do in this day and age when ticks are a somewhat, if not very serious problem, depending on where you are.

>> Yeah.

I think, you know, you can take some preventative measures, permethrin treatment for clothing using insect repellents.

Um, tucking your pants into your socks, wearing light colored clothing that's easier to see ticks on.

And then after you're out, um, making sure that you're taking off your clothes, uh, inspecting those and giving yourself a good tick check when you're, um, back in the shower or something like that.

You can lather up kind of feel everywhere and see if there's anything kind of awry.

Um, but just being diligent about, you know, before you go out and then after you get back from an outing.

Um, I think that those are the best things that we can do at this point.

>> Are you seeing more ticks?

You've been hiking quite a while.

Are you seeing more when.

>> You're out there?

>> For sure, even locally, uh, you know, in some of the, the county parks, Letchworth.

Um, yeah, there's, there's definitely an uptick in.

>> In ticks.

>> They're definitely out there.

So, um, we can coat clothing and shoes with a, you said it and.

>> I permethrin.

>> Yes.

>> Can you talk about how you do that?

Where do you get it?

How do you apply it.

>> Yeah, it's available at a lot of outdoor retailers online.

I believe there is a restriction for using it around cats.

It can be toxic.

So the recommendation is to to treat outside.

Um and then once it's dry it's no longer a problem for, for cats.

Um, and then it lasts for a certain number of washes.

So you would have to, to monitor everything.

>> And so basically you should pick an outfit or two that you're going to do your hiking in.

>> Yes.

>> Code that is that what, what do rangers have to do.

You're out there every single day.

Mark.

>> Uh.

>> Everything under the sun.

Uh, every Ranger has a different approach to dealing with ticks.

A lot of them do use permethrin.

I in the Adirondacks, ticks are around.

Uh, they're not particularly bad.

When I lived in the Catskills, I use permethrin on my, uh, uniforms.

Now I just get myself a good tick check every day.

Okay.

And hope you don't get them.

>> Yeah, yeah.

So, um, another thing on the ten hiking essentials list, emergency shelter.

What does that look like?

Mark?

>> So I would recommend a Bivy, which is essentially a little it's, it's >> Uh, that can be, it can have one pole and it's kind of a tent.

You can slide into, or it's just, uh, a protective sac that you kind of can get into.

If you have a sleeping bag, great.

If not with just your layers, but it's going to be waterproof, it's going to be windproof, and it allows you to get out of the elements.

Maybe you can find a large boulder that you can kind of tuck in underneath to get out of the elements, uh, in the winter time, a protective shelter could be knowing how to make a snow shelter or, um, certain trees.

You can just get underneath all the branches and that's going to be out of the elements a little bit.

So to me, a protective shelter is something that I do carry in my pack every day on patrol, but knowing how to find that and make it in the natural environment in the scenario which you need, it is an important thing as well.

>> And do you carry anything for emergency shelter?

>> I do, um, in all four seasons I'll carry that, that bivvy bag.

In the winter time, I carry a little extra insulation.

So either a blanket, a down blanket, or a down sleeping bag and a lot of those hot packs, you know, just thinking, uh, I want something that's easy for me to get into if I'm incapacitated with some other injury or, you know, maybe not clearly, uh, thinking because of something like hypothermia.

So I do carry.

>> It now.

It sounds like your pack is really heavy.

So what do you tell people that are like, ah, I'm just going out for a couple of hours.

Would you carry all that stuff if you're just going to go out for a couple of hours, a new trail, maybe, but, uh, is there a threshold where you say, I'm going to carry this pack or do you bring it.

>> Everywhere?

>> For me personally, uh, sometimes I'm worried if I unpack everything that I'll forget something when I repack it.

So a lot of times, you know, unless I'm washing my pack or, you know, cleaning out something or restocking my first aid kit, everything is in there.

I have a couple of different size packs for the different activities that I'm doing.

Um, but even on like a, you know, 3 or 4 hour hike at Letchworth, I'm bringing my ten essentials and, and things that I, I know I need, if, um, if I encounter someone on the trail or if I experience an emergency.

>> Okay.

Mark, this is not on the.

Ten hiking essentials list, but I in my time up in the Adirondacks, I've seen this happen on occasion where we'll be coming out at the end of a day up there, the, you know, the sun's starting to go down and they will there will inevitably be somebody starting the hike.

Um, do you see people underestimating the amount of time that it's going to take them to complete a hike?

Is that common?

>> Absolutely, absolutely.

>> I think that is the number one reason why people do get into trouble.

Um, and they, they didn't bring a flashlight because they don't expect to be out there for a very long time.

And they see on the map, oh, it's a four mile hike.

Well, that's each way and there's 2500ft of elevation gain.

And that's going to take you a lot longer than expected.

Um, I've had people come into the woods at that time of day in the evening to hike up to the top to catch the sunset.

And I know it's going to take two hours to get up there and the sun's already setting.

So the most we can do is educate them on how long it might take.

Um, give them some tips on their equipment.

If they're really dead set on still going into the woods, I'll tell them to put their phone on airplane mode.

It'll save some battery, and then they'll likely be walking out with a phone flashlight a few hours later.

Uh, but it is underestimating the length of hikes.

Is is a significant problem.

>> Okay, we have a few minutes left.

And before we get into the Adirondack Mountain Club Outdoor Expo with Sarah, are there any key points that you, Mark, would like to make as we head into this season of hiking and camping and being outside, anything that really people should keep in mind as they're going out.

>> No, the state land, you're going to go to the rules and regulations.

You can research all that on the website.

If you plan on staying overnight, let someone know your plan.

Um, let someone know when you plan to be out of the woods.

So if something happens, they can reach out to us.

We can come help and, you know, enjoy everything that New York has to offer and be friendly to everyone you see in the woods.

Help people if they need help.

We have a lot of folks out there who end up.

They bring everything that they think they might need for themselves into the woods, and they end up helping someone else, and that's always a good story.

Um, it's a, it's a heartwarming story to see folks out there taking care of each other.

So enjoy the woods, be prepared and be nice.

>> Okay, this is DC forest Ranger Mark Brand.

I really appreciate you being with us here today, and you've been given us some really helpful advice.

>> My pleasure, my pleasure.

>> We're going to finish up.

We have a few minutes here, so we want to talk about the Adirondack Mountain Club Outdoor Expo.

Um, first when and where.

>> Yeah.

So it's this Saturday, June 13th, uh, at Mendon Ponds Park, the beach parking area.

And it's from 9:30 a.m.

To 3:30 p.m.. >> Okay.

And this is not the first time, not the first expo, right.

But you are the chair this year, correct?

Yep.

Um, so tell us some of the highlights, things that you're most excited about this year.

>> You know, the outdoor expo, it's in its 27th year.

Um, it started as a spring fling, uh, where, you know, a group of members were getting together to share information that they had with other members.

Um, but it's evolved into this event that draws about a thousand people from the community.

Um, this year we have over 40 workshops on outdoor skills.

We have over 60 organizations locally that are participating.

So in addition to those skill workshops, you can try out kayaks and canoes on the pond and ponds Park.

Um, talk to those local organizations about their work in the community, whether that's, you know, helping with climate change or, um, local types of recreation.

Um, and then we also have a kids zone that's new this year, um, to appeal to our younger outdoor recreationists and that will have a scavenger hunt, uh, survival bracelet making nature crafts, and just a lot of other fun kid stuff.

>> So has the club seen a growing interest and growing interest parallel to what they're seeing out on the trails and in the campsites?

Things are filling up.

So many people are going out.

Are you seeing that in in interest in being a member of the club of, you know, participating in expo and other workshops that you do?

>> Yeah.

I mean, uh, both on the attendee, uh, portion of things, you know, we have a lot of people that want to come to our outings, whether that's paddling, biking, or hiking.

And then, um, just people that are volunteering in the club and want to be part of something.

Um, the outdoor expo is entirely volunteer.

We have about 75 to 100 volunteers every year that, that put this on.

And you know, I'm, I'm the chair, but it really does take a village to put this thing together.

And the active participation, uh, of our chapter members really just helps us be able to serve the community and, and that growing need.

>> Are you seeing younger people getting involved?

I know that traditionally the club was a little bit leaning, older people that had.

Time basically to get out and weren't running to soccer matches and all of that.

What are you seeing in terms of membership now?

>> Yeah, I mean, that's that's really a focus of our group.

Um, we have a lot of outings during the week.

Um, we're trying to push for um, lots more outings on the weekends.

Um, we have a range of, uh, difficulties, I would say for our outings, you know, if you're just looking for something short because you're short on time or, um, you know, aren't ready for a big expedition, you know, we have a lot of tours for minute or a mile hikes all the way up.

>> To four minutes is good.

>> All the way up to, you know, 10 or 15 miles.

So I think we have something for everyone.

And yeah, we want to get more families and young people involved.

>> Okay, so one more time, the expo this weekend.

>> Yeah.

June 13th, the outdoor expo at Mendon Ponds Park from 9:30 a.m.

To 3:30 p.m.. >> And it's free.

>> It's free and open to the public.

>> How many you have a lot of vendors or I'm not sure if that's what you call them.

>> But.

>> Year.

>> Over 60 this year.

Yeah.

That's great.

Well congratulations.

>> Thank you.

>> We are out of time.

I would like to thank um, Sarah Mastro from the Genesee Valley chapter of the Adirondack Mountain Club for sticking with us this whole show.

And we had a lot of other guests today.

Um, I'd also like to thank our production team and you, our listener, have fun out there.

I'll be back tomorrow.

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