[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - We're now joined by Dr. Sadar Jaffer, who is a former member of the state assembly and opted to leave by choice, unlike some of us back in the mid-eighties who were voted out of office.

I have no idea who that might be.

You didn't even know that, that I got voted out of the legislature, right?

- I did not.

- (laughs) That's how I got this job.

Way more importantly, you left the legislature and there's so many issues I wanna talk to you about.

You left the legislature for several reasons, some of them personal, I'm sure.

How much of it, of you leaving by choice, was a product of the nasty, ugly, hateful political environment we're living in these days?

Please, doctor?

- Yeah, I'd probably say like 30 to 50%.

I think, you know, when you make a decision that big, there are any number of reasons that motivate it.

Certainly the type of hate and attention and attacks I get as a Muslim elected official, as a Muslim in the public eye, are very disturbing to deal with, and especially with a young child, putting her through that.

Not only directly being afraid for her safety, but also what impact does it have on her to know that her mother is going through that.

And I think when she was younger, it felt like it was over her head, you know?

But as she gets into being a little bit more understanding what's going on in the world around her, I didn't want her to feel that fear, or to feel, to kind of bear the brunt of the type of hate that I get.

- You know, first of all, thank you for your candor about it when I'm sure it must have been a difficult decision.

You're the first Muslim woman to hold a mayoral position in the country.

Is that accurate?

- Yes.

- And one of the first two Muslims to serve in the state legislature in New Jersey.

Curious about this.

October 7th, 2023, the Hamas attack, the massacre, if you will, in Israel.

To what degree did that incident, that incident, that horrific massacre and the subsequent war between Hamas and Israel, that has gone on and continues to go on, to what degree does that affect you as a public person, a former public person, but more importantly as a person of color, as a Muslim?

- Yeah, absolutely.

As someone who has always stood for peace and against all forms of hate and all forms of violence, it's traumatic and horrifying to hear about and to learn about, and to know, that any innocent people are killed.

And, you know, my heart breaks for all the people who were killed on October 7th, their families, their loved ones, and also for all of the people who have been killed in the Israeli military's decimation of Gaza.

As a mother, again, my heart breaks, especially for 13,000 children, probably more.

The count is hard to keep up.

So many stuck under the rubble.

And seeing videos of children literally taking their last breaths is shattering.

And certainly knowing that our government is providing those weapons and is providing diplomatic cover and vetoes every call for ceasefire at the UN, it's very, very hard to accept the role that our government is playing in this ongoing violence of the ongoing massacres.

- The other piece of the equation are the hostages that were taken on October 7th.

Does that reality of those hostages being held and those families in Israel suffering, does that in any way impact your thinking on the actions of Israel?

And by the way, for some folks who are wondering, "Hey, Steve, aren't you a New Jersey based operation?"

Well, New Jersey is one of the largest Palestinian, one of the largest Jewish populations in the nation.

Those hostages, your thoughts as to how it impacts how you see this ongoing war and the devastation going on in Gaza and the death and destruction, over 30,000, like you said, I don't even know how you can get an accurate count of human beings who've lost their lives.

Go ahead, please.

- Yes, absolutely.

I think all hostages should be freed.

All Palestinians who are kept in administrative detention without any trial, should be released.

Many children are in Israelis administrative detention as well.

And certainly any hostages that are kept, and all hostages that are kept must be released.

It's not acceptable to take hostages.

I think it's interesting because in Israel, many of the hostage families are also calling for a ceasefire because the Israeli military has also killed many hostages because you're bombing the place where the hostages are being kept.

And actually there were three hostages, Israeli hostages, who were waving white flags, who were killed by Israeli military.

So I don't think that what Israel is doing is helping anyone or protecting anyone.

That the government has said the hostages are not their priority.

So, you know, I stand in solidarity with everyone who wants peace, including many, many Israeli human rights organizations like B'Tselem, Parents Circle, Combatants for Peace, who are all calling for an end to this onslaught, which isn't helping save those hundred or so hostages that are still missing.

Or, you know, the hundred plus people, a hundred plus Palestinians, who are being killed every single day.

- Dr. Jaffer, let me ask you this, to Muslims, to Palestinians, who do not roundly criticize and call October 7th what it was, an absolute massacre, including women and children.

For those who either can't and or won't call it what it was, what did you say to them?

- I don't think there are many people like that.

I think- - You don't?

I think that the frustration for certain people comes from the fact that Palestinians and Muslims are always called upon to condemn anything that is done by anyone who shares our identities.

Whereas, if you had an Israeli guest on this show, or if you had a Jewish guest on this show, would you demand that they condemn the Israeli military's actions in Gaza?

- W, I'm sorry.

Would I demand?

Would I?

Sorry if I interrupt.

Would I demand?

No, would I ask?

Yes.

- Well, that's not common.

I think it's often very, very common to ask Muslims, Palestinians to condemn things, whereas when the violence is enacted on people who share our identities, whether, when on it's on Muslims or it's on Palestinians, I can't speak for Palestinians since I'm not one, but that seems to be ignored and considered perfectly acceptable by far too many people in our country, in our media, and our society.

- To what degree do you believe that Islamophobia is, and again, the statistics are what they are, but we're talking about people's lives.

How much worse is it since the incidents of violence, prejudice, et cetera, toward Muslims?

How much worse is it since October 7th?

- It's pretty bad.

You know, we- - How do you see it?

How and where do you see it?

- Well, there was a 6-year-old child, Wadea Al-Fayoume, who was stabbed to death by his landlord, someone who knew him, who was so radicalized by the news that he killed a child.

- Stabbed 26 times in October of 2023.

Muslim, I'm sorry for interrupting, Muslim college student was hit, struck in a hit and run in UC Berkeley in November of '23.

Three college students of Palestinian descent were shot in Vermont during Thanksgiving.

One is a paraplegic now from the waist down.

23-year-old Palestinian American was stabbed near UT Austin in February.

And those are just some.

- Right.

Yeah, so those are the very violent, devastating incidents.

And then beyond that, so many experiences that people have had just out and about being yelled at or having hostile comments said to them on campus or wherever it may be.

So I think that community is definitely feeling afraid.

- And real quick on this, because, if we could, New Jersey lawyer, Adeei Mangi, nominated by President Biden to be on the United States Circuit Court of Appeals Third Circuit being blocked by many Republicans in Congress.

I'm not sure why, not on the credentials.

Do you believe that's based on his background?

- Yes.

We've seen this whenever and oftentimes when a Muslim goes up for any sort of a confirmation that these questions about dual loyalties, or just, you know, assumptions that people make about anyone from a Muslim background come up.

And it's unfortunate that some of our country's elected officials think it's okay to display their prejudice in this way.

- Before I let you go, I need to, I'm struggling with this.

You ever see people say they, they're picking sides as if, on college campuses you see this as well, picking sides.

What is so difficult and challenging about acknowledging what happened in, what happened on October 7th was horrific and Hamas is a terrorist organization and what they did was unimaginable.

And what is going on in Gaza right now and so many people being killed every day, being denied food and water and medical care, that it's horrific and inhumane.

Why is it one or the other, pick sides?

- I don't personally think that it has to be.

I think that- - For many it is though.

For many it is.

- I don't think so.

(laughs) Maybe it's because I, you know, I'm connected to human rights activists, and I think most people of conscience think it's wrong to kill innocent people.

And whether that's done by an organization like Hamas or whether that's done by a military or a government, it's wrong.

I think there is a particular responsibility that states have because they have so much more power, they have so many weapons that can actually not just kill people, but blow up an entire university, blow up every single university in Gaza, blow up every hospital in Gaza.

We do hold governments to a higher standard than an organization or a terrorist group because they have more responsibility.

And certainly as a government that we provide the weapons to, we should demand that they abide by human rights law and not kill so many innocent people.

- Sadar, could you come back and continue this conversation with us?

And I would like to try, it's, I wanna have some other folks in the conversation on our series, "Think Tank," with different perspectives.

- Sure.

- With not having people believe that they've gotta, quote, pick sides as opposed to what is... - Right.

Nevermind, I'll get off my, it's not my place to say.

I can't thank you enough for joining us.

Wish you and your family all the best, and thank you for your service in the state legislature when you were there, thank you.

- Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

Thank you so much for watching.

We'll see you next time.

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