Laura: Kevin Ferrara thank you for joining me from Pennsylvania today.

I’m glad to have you here  to talk about PFAS and the Air Force and AFFF firefighting foam that has these toxic chemicals  in it.

Can we start with, you were an Air Force firefighter.

Can you give us a little,   like, overview of your career?

Kevin: Sure.

Yeah.

First and foremost, you Know, thanks for having me on the show.

You know,  I welcome the opportunity to get my story out There.

So, my Air Force career started in 1991.

I left central Pennsylvania, joined the Air Force, started my first training was at Chanute Air  Force Base in Randall,  Illinois.

That's where, if you  were going to be a firefighter in the Air Force, that's where you went for training at the time.

Completed my training there and then my first assignment was at Cannon Air Force Base in  Clovis, New Mexico.

I was there for four years.

After that, in ‘95 I left.

I got out of the Air  Force, returned to Pennsylvania  for a few years, but  my passion was firefighting and I wanted to come back in as a firefighter.

So,   in 2001 I rejoined the Air Force.

I went to Davis-Monthan Air Force base  in Tucson, Arizona.

Found  my way to Germany for four  years and then as my career started wrapping up I finished at Langley Air Force base in Hampton,  Virginia.

Laura: Okay and what is the sort of the daily  routine of an Air Force firefighter?

You're doing training and testing and what, what's that  like?

Kevin:   So, an Air Force firefighter, excuse me, it's pretty much the same as a municipal firefighter,  with the exception you know obviously in the Air Force we have aircraft.

So, it's like an airport  that's really the only thing that's different from a municipal fire department that you may find  within your local community.

Most fire departments in the Air Force worked a 24-on, 24-off shift.

So, you worked every other day, every two weeks.

You got what we called a kelly day so it was an  extra day off, but yeah,  you know, firefighting is,  you know, it's pretty much the same.

You know, we always kid… it's put the   wet stuff on the red stuff and, you know, with a few specialized things you  know, in the military now  obvious, you know, like I  said with the aircraft, you know, for deployments, for, you know, when we deploy you know to foreign  countries and everything.

That's really about the only thing that's different than what  you may see within your local communities.

Laura: So, in the late 1970s the U.S. military  started using this AFFF  PFAS, these toxic substances  in it.

And around 2006, the military started phasing that out at European military bases and  then in 2016 started phasing it out at U.S. bases.

But, back in the 1990s,   what did you know about this AFFF that you were using on a daily basis?

Kevin: Well, to be honest, we didn't know anything About what PFAS, you know, what PFAS was  and what AFFF really was.

When I first started in 1991 at Chaneux, that was the first time that  I was in contact with firefighting foam, you know.

I had heard about it, never actually seen or put  hands on it and as we were using it the characteristics of it look just   like your dish soap.

When you wash dishes,   it suds up.

It's the same color, you know,   all of that.

And we were told it was soap and water.

You know, our instructors had told us  AFFF firefighting foam is  just soap and water.

It's  perfectly safe.

You don't have to worry about it.

You know, of course now, through research and  Everything, we found those documents that says, you know, dating back to the 70s, not so much.

It's not… it's not safe.

Laura: Yeah,   there are these studies that go back to the late 1960s that that show the toxicity of PFAS  in lab animals and workers and some of the 3M and Dupont factories, but you weren't given any  sort of warning or notice or information?

Kevin: Not a bit.

You know, throughout my entire  career, my 20-year career, there was no mention  that AFFF firefighting foam  was hazardous or toxic.

You know, almost every installation I was assigned To, starting at Chaneux, Cannon Air Force Base,  other bases, we were told the same thing.

It was repeated, AFFF was soap   and water.

It was perfectly safe and you know, we took that as being the  truth, because our leadership, we expected those individuals to know what they were talking about.

And we had no reason to doubt them.

And it was Only, you know, years after I retired, you know,  I started uncovering the truth.

And it's like, not so much.

You know, we found the  fish kill studies.

We found the lab animal studies and it was just like, our leadership  knew about this and they withheld it.

To me, they intentionally withheld that from those  that use the products and now we see where we are today.

We have individuals that are sick  and, you know, unfortunately dying because of that exposure to the products that they knew  was hazardous to us.

Laura: So, being a firefighter carries a certain  amount of risk.

Being in the military carries a certain amount of risk.

But, what are your  concerns and the concerns you're hearing from other veterans about their exposure to PFAS?

Kevin: The biggest concern right now is in, you Know, all the firefighters that I talk to,  they ask me, because of the exposure that they've had to PFAS and to, you know,   firefighting foam are they going to get cancer?

That's their biggest fear, because there's no magic pill to get rid of PFAS  once you're exposed to it.

Once it's in your body it stays in your body for years.

So, their biggest concern is are they going to get sick because of this and unfortunately the  DOD, the military, is not telling them anything.

You know, the hazards or risks associated with  It, they're doing their own independent research.

They're contacting me, other firefighters and  we've always said firefighting is like a brotherhood.

It's a huge network and we  bounce things off of each other ideas and we constantly network and communicate.

And that's how we're learning more and more about PFAS.

It's not from  the VA, the Department of Defense, you know, the Air Force.

These military installations, it's independent research that we're doing on our own and sharing those findings.

Laura: So, what has… as people have expressed concerns, say to the Air Force or the military,  what has the Air Force's  or the military's response  been to veterans concerned about PFAS?

Kevin: To be honest, not much.

You know, we've,  the DOD and the Air Force they're, starting last year, last October, they're starting to do PFAS  blood testing.

So, they know there's some hazards associated with PFAS, so they're testing that,  but as for, you know,  relaying anything health-wise,  things that they should be  concerned with, offering  pamphlets, brochures,  everybody that I’ve talked to,  they're saying that's not happening.

Even the VA, the VA is not providing really any information  on PFAS exposure and that concerns veterans and firefighters.

You know, they're thirsty, they want  this information.

They want to be educated on it.

But, they're hitting roadblocks.

You know, one  after the other and they're  simply not getting that  information.

Laura: So, can we talk about the VA a little bit.

If, for instance, you have  concerns, health problems  or concerns, can you describe the process for a veteran going to the VA and maybe seeking  information, seeking blood tests?

Kevin:   Sure, so, you know, most individuals I’ve talked To, veteran firefighters, they approach their  doctors at the at the Veterans Affairs and the expression of their concerns,   a lot of times they're  getting pushback from these doctors, because, if you actually go on the VA's website for  PFAS, it says they don't recommend a PFAS Blood test, because they consider almost  Everybody, every American has detectable levels of PFAS in their blood.

So, they don't recommend  that.

So, you know firefighters  will walk into their,  the VA clinics, speak to  their doctor and ask, often  demand these PFAS blood tests and they're told, no the VA does not offer those.

And in regards to  PFAS, itself it's pretty  much the same thing.

They're  not getting really any information from these VA doctors, you know, because for whatever reason,  it may be that these doctors aren't aware of what PFAS is.

You know, installation  physicians, you know, a lot of the firefighters I’ve talked to they said their own  doctors had never heard of PFAS, up until last year when some emails and things  were being socialized through the medical community.

They had no idea what it is and  they're doing some research on their own, because their leadership is not providing  very much information on it as well.

Laura: And so, have you, or people you know,  Have you had your blood tested?

Do you have PFAS?

Are you having health problems  that you think are related to this exposure/ Kevin: So, for me, I’ve had a PFOA, PFOA  blood test.

Now my, in my insurance provider which is Tricare or military is what it  is now, that's the only thing that they tested for  and it took me literally a year to track down the the testing codes for that blood test.

My civilian  doctor here in central PA, once I described why I wanted the test and what PFAS was,  he was absolutely all for it.

He said, we have to get you tested.

We have to make sure  you're okay.

We had the blood test done.

It went to a lab here in Pennsylvania.

It came back,  unfortunately, it said non-detectable.

And, I’m not surprised at that because  this particular lab that tested it, they have on their detectable limit, each lab that you  get your blood tested through, their equipment is calibrated differently.

There's no real standard.

So, this particular lab, they had a higher detectable level than what others do, so  that's a lot of firefighters I’ve talked to went through the same lab and they found the same thing  with PFOA.

It comes back as non-detectable and some of these firefighters have said to me,  they were slathered in foam.

There's no way it should come back as non-detectable.

The other side of that is, it's costly for…  because the VA and the DOD is not testing veterans, former firefighters like myself ,  we have to pay out of pocket.

If we want the same test that the DOD is doing today  we have to pay out of pocket for that.

And that's, it's not right, so, you know  Laura: And just kind of to remind people there are thousands of toxic substances  in sort of the PFAS family and PFOA and PFAS are the two that the military has  been testing for in local groundwater such as in Clovis and near Holloman Air Force base.

But there are thousands of these chemicals and these replacement foams oftentimes might have  other types of PFAS other than PFOA and PFOS.

Have you been paying attention to kind of the  replacement process and how those other sorts of chemicals might be affecting people's health  or local groundwater, things like?

Kevin: Absolutely, you know,   I’m following this process daily.

We can break it down to  hourly, you know.

I’m  constantly finding new things  on the internet, because  again, it goes back to that,  I have to research this information.

I have to dig for it because it's not being readily provided to  the public, to firefighters,  to military personnel.

So, what I found so far is that you know the DOD is looking at a non-fluorinated foam and the  the 2020 and I believe the 2021 national defense authorization act both state that  by fiscal year ‘24 they have, the military has to switch to a non-fluoridated foam,  so there's this sudden scramble to find what the Air Force calls eco-friendly or a safer foam.

So, right now they have it down to, I believe, six that they're looking at.

The push back is the  mill spec, it has to meet a certain specification that the military has established   for if, you know, firefighting with aircraft fuels and other  fuels.

So that's how they narrowed it down to down to the six right now.

Will they meet that  that suspense date?

I hope so.

I’m not putting a lot of faith in it to be honest, simply because  they've kicked this can down the road so long in terms of, you know, finding an alternative,  you know, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

Laura: I know you hear from lots of veterans  in particular, but I don't feel like it's a conversation that's really happening  publicly in a lot of arenas and I’m curious why you think there might be some reluctance  among veterans or active duty military members to talk about their concerns, to talk  about their exposure, to talk about this issue?

Kevin: Well, first and foremost, with active duty  military and DOD civilians, they have a fear of reprisal if they speak up about this.

They're  in fear that they're going to be punished in some fashion for voicing their concerns.

Now,  as for former firefighters veterans like myself,  you know, yes we're still military in a sense.

We're retirees but we have a little bit more  leeway as to, you know, voicing our concerns and everything and showing our frustrations.

Not so much with, like I  said, with the active duty  Folks, because I’ve even, before I retired I’ve witnessed it, to where firefighters would express  concerns about certain things and almost instantly their leadership would frown upon that  and you know punish them in in some fashion for really voicing valid concerns and PFAS is  definitely a valid concern.

It affects one's health  and they should be talking about it and they should have,   they shouldn't have to be afraid to do.

So, they should be able to do so freely and  have a an open and, you know, an open dialogue with their leadership and come up with  some solutions but that's not happening.

Laura: I’m wondering if, in addition to that, I  grew up with police officers and firefighters and there is a certain culture and pride and you  know maybe even expectation that you don't talk about your anxieties.

You don't talk about your  concerns.

Do you think that that plays into this at all or no?

Kevin: Yeah, a little a little bit.

You know we've always said, you know, don't any organization  don't air your dirty laundry.

This is a lot of dirty  laundry with PFAS.

You know, we've uncovered the, what I consider to be a cover-up, dating back  decades ago and I think it was only because of public peer pressure work, some word got  out somehow to the public and it picked up some momentum.

And really, I think that's how  we have learned the significance of PFAS contamination, you know, in our military  installations and communities.

Whoever started that, you know, I thank them  for doing that and you know we're picking up the pace now, but you know it's, there is  you know, it's like I said with the military, it's almost an unwritten code that you don't  talk about certain things even though it affects your health.

And that that should  not, like I said before, that should not happen.

You should be able to freely talk about  concerns, your health concerns that you have.

Laura: So, researching PFAS and working on  this story over the past couple of years, I’ve often been reminded of how veterans have  had to deal with the impacts of agent orange, exposure to agent orange and I’m curious if  you see any parallels between what has happened with agent orange and what's happening with  PFAS?

Kevin: Ironically, we consider PFAS contamination the 21st century agent orange.

We had the agent  orange dealings with, you know, the Vietnam era.

Now we're dealing with PFAS.

A lot of  firefighters, a lot of  veterans have tied those two  together and you look at how long it's taken the military to really recognize the impact that agent  orange had on those Vietnam Veterans.

And, I really hope we don't have the same thing with  PFAS, because every day that ticks by more and More veterans, their dependents,   innocent civilians Living, you know, near these military, these  contaminated military installations are becoming sick and we have to, we know that contamination  is there.

It's proven.

But we have to get the military, the DOD to step up and start taking  action to really shut off what I call the source.

You can't, you can't clean up something  until you turn off the source of contamination Laura: And so what would you like to see at this  Point?

How would you like to see the Air Force and the VA moving forward… what are some  concrete steps you think they could take?

Kevin: The first one is start conducting  their own research.

A recent congressional hearing they were asked both the DOD and  the VA asked if they were doing their own research and both entities replied that they  were not.

They were relying on, you know, third party research.

They have the capability  of doing their own research.

They have the personnel to survey if they would just do that.

They're receiving millions and millions and millions of dollars from congress but they're  not putting it to good use.

They keep saying they're doing research and testing, well we  haven't seen this research and testing.

Where's the money going.

Secondly, take that money,  take the funding that congress is allocating to the military, each and every year and start  doing remediation efforts.

You know, again, it goes back to you have to, before you can  move forward you have to start at the source of this contamination.

They know where it's at  but they're not applying any of this funding or efforts to actually remediate the source  of this contamination.

So, really it's almost, they're being reactive instead of proactive.

I  wish the military would be more proactive.

Had they been proactive years ago  we may not have been in the situation we are today, but, unfortunately, we are.

But there's  opportunity for them to be proactive, be leaders, be good stewards of the community  and do what's right.

Laura: So here at NMPBS we've done a  lot of coverage of the groundwater contamination from Cannon Air Force base and Holloman Air Force  base.

I’m wondering if you  can kind of take us back  in time a little bit to when that PFAS was on the surface and kind of describe the sorts of  daily activities, of how it would have gotten into the soil, into the   groundwater Kevin:   Sure.

So, you know, look at, I, like I said, I started at Cannon Air Force Base in 1991  and I was there from 1991 to 1995.

So, for me and the personnel that were there with me  every shift and again we worked 24 hours on, 24 hours off.

We would do what we call daily  operational checks and that essentially consisted of those that were assigned to a crash  truck an airport firefighting vehicle we would drive out along the flight line and at some point  we would stop, activate the firefighting system, which involved the firefighting foam.

We would discharge that foam onto the soil.

We couldn't put it on the taxi way because  it was a little slippery and we didn't want the aircraft to drive over it.

So, we would discharge it into the soil.

It would set there for a few hours and if you were to go  back a few hours or so later it would all be soaked into the ground.

You wouldn't be able  to see it anymore.

And we did this every day for the four years that I was there.

I can't imagine how much contamination  Occurred before I got to Cannon or firefighters got to Holloman and that same process of doing  daily operational checks  occurred at every Air Force  installation.

It was almost as standard, that's what you did to make sure the trucks operated  right.

So whatever happened at Cannon Air Force base, I can say with almost 100 percent certainty,  the same thing happened at Holloman Air Force base in other locations, Kirtland Air Force base  in Albuquerque, that the same thing would have occurred there.

So, you know it's and again that  firefighting foam it sat on the surface eventually it permeated into the soil and just like with rain  water it, you know, water will find you know, the least resistance and those materials   end up finding their way into the underground aquifer systems  to where we know today a lot of wells were drilled that's where a lot of residents in in New Mexico  through these aquifers received their drinking water or water for their livestock and  it's crazy to think today that during those four years that I unknowingly was contaminating the  soil and the aquifer in New Mexico.

I was at the same time drinking the contaminated water  through the received through these wells these drinking walls at Cannon Air Force base.

And yet nobody told us that you know things were, things were, you know contaminated or we shouldn't  be doing that.

We were just that's what we were told to do.

Again you know we went back to  our leadership.

They were in those positions we asked, they knew what they were talking about  and we never questioned it.

Laura: One of the things that I’ve noticed here  and maybe it's universal at bases but we kind of have this rotating commanders who are here for  a few years and then move on and I’m curious if you think or what you think about how that  how those changes and leadership affect the Air Force's ability to feel responsible to the  community?

Kevin: It absolutely changes how things get done  when you have a rotation of leadership.

The new leadership is going to come in  and prioritize things that they want to work on, accomplished during their rotation  most of these commanders are on they're in charge for about two or three years  that's about the average sometimes you get, four or more depending on where they're at.

But the, as I said these  leaders will come in, they  have a priority list and that's the things they  work on because that's the things they want to see accomplished.

And you know before they move on  unfortunately that impacts PFAS remediation.

I would I would think at this point for  the Air Force, the military, PFAS remediation is your number one priority  but I really feel it's not at some of these installations and that's why we're seeing that can  being kicked down the road it's we're not seeing much progress in terms of  remediation or efforts you know or emphasis efforts and emphasis put on PFAS, the swap out,  the cleanup medical care anything like that Laura:   So when you and I talked earlier you mentioned that you feel a sense of guilt sometimes and I’m  not suggesting that you're responsible for the contamination but can you talk about that a  little bit?

Kevin: Sure, you know like I said I mean  when I when I started at Chinook Air Force base we were told you know AFFF was  just soap and water.

My first assignment at Cannon Air Force Base the same thing was echoed,  it's soap and water.

It's  perfectly safe.

You know,  we washed our uniforms.

We washed the trucks.

We washed our stalls.

There was incidents where  we sprayed foam out for fire prevention visits and young kids played in it because  they thought it was cool.

It looked like snow.

Looking back at that you know again the four years that I was there we did this you know  we sprayed foam every day thousands and thousands of gallons of firefighting foam  just while I was there you know got into the soil and eventually into the drinking water and  I look back at it now and I hear the stories about you know local dairy farmers with their you know  they're contaminated the milk, their families are contaminated, you know, Clovis residents had  to have bottled water and I, you know, I say to myself I’m like my gosh you know for four years  I unknowingly contributed to all of that and you know I do, I feel guilty  and I’m certain other firefighters that were there with me would share in this.

We, had we known then what we know today, there is no way we would deliberately  spray AFFF firefighting foam you know into the into the environment, into the soil  and allow it to contaminate it.

You know it's just that's it, it bothers me that  that so many residents in New Mexico, because while I was at Clovis, you know, Holloman was  operational, Kirtland's operational and we did the same thing and you know just to think that there's  thousands and thousands really probably millions of innocent residents that are now contaminated.

They're exposed to PFAS.

They're drinking Water or other contact just knowing  that what we did affected  all of those individuals,  I mean it does, it weighs heavily on my mind and there is a strong sense of guilt.

There's if  if I could go back in time and tell myself don't do what you're about to do I would gladly  do it.

Laura:   All right, so you were stationed that cannon but you're familiar with this issue all  across the United States.

I’m curious what you wish people around Cannon and Holloman  understood about what's happening nationwide Kevin: So, you know it's   the whole PFAS Contamination, it's a national issue.

it's  a global issue.

I encourage the residents in New Mexico to pressure their local, state, federal  representatives to socialize information.

You know pass out information about PFAS  contamination.

That's the first start is educating folks on what PFAS is.

How it got into the soil  and what preventative measures they need to take today to minimize their exposure  and at the same time meet, you know, try to meet with these military officials  and establish some type of dialogue, some type of relationship between the community  and the military, because I’ve always said if the military would just come out and apologize and say  we're sorry for what happened, but we're gonna work on this.

We're gonna move forward.

That would be a great start but they're not doing it seems like that that fence line that  that divides the military base in the community you know even though it's  probably like an eight foot high fence it might as well be a thousand foot high fence because  it almost seems like that's the barrier that whatever happens on base that's the military's  issue and they don't believe anything outside that fence is their concern and that's not  what our military should be, you know.

Military is taxpayer-funded and it should be  an open and cordial dialogue, a great working relationship but we're simply not seeing  and it it's happening all over the United States and around the world at military  Installations, even foreign countries, they're, some of their military installations as well.

They're dealing with the same thing.

There's no, there's a disconnect somewhere and they can't  establish that communication.

Laura: All right, well, Kevin, thank you so much  for communicating with us, for talking with me today.

I really appreciate it.

Kevin: Again Laura, I appreciate being on and you know anything that you need  I’m here to help out.

Laura: thank you