>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in a retirement just a few months ago, when a legendary local journalist hung up his pen.

And that's probably not.

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

You don't hang up a pen, per se.

Maybe he holstered his pen.

He walked into the sunset.

Aloha means goodbye.

It was hard to see Gary Craig go.

He's been a mentor to countless young journalists, and he has demonstrated the value, really, in my view, the vital need for seasoned local reporting.

Because after all, we are losing local newsrooms across the country.

But as it turns out, Gary Craig is pretty terrible at retirement and isn't that good for us?

He recently launched his own Substack, and he already has several hundred subscribers.

I am one of them.

And as Gary has learned, there is one story in particular that his readers just can't let go of the palace intrigue at Oak Hill Country Club.

I bet you didn't expect that.

Gary writes that even he has wondered why people care so much about the insults and the infighting and the lawsuits at Oak Hill.

Maybe it's because most of us will never afford a membership, never get past the gates.

Maybe there's some schadenfreude, but Gary Craig is writing about other subjects too.

Most recently, a piece on New York State's continued failure to apologize for the tragedy at Attica so many years ago.

Craig writes, quote, we're nearing the anniversary of the Attica Prison uprising, one of our country's darkest days, and a history that I've come to know intimately over the past 25 years.

Three years ago, I wrote an op ed for USA today hoping that Governor Kathy Hochul would shed the weaknesses of her predecessors and apologize on behalf of the state to the Attica victims and survivors.

Inmates, employees, family.

That has yet to happen, and my hope of it happening when with Hochul has pretty much diminished.

End quote.

This hour, we welcome back a still very active journalist and one of the best, Gary Craig.

Although Gary is going to make the case that you are semi-retired.

>> I am.

I'm I'm working at a different pace.

It's my own pace.

I was, I thought, explicit, but apparently not enough for most people, including my family, that I was retiring from daily newspaper.

>> No, you said that on this show.

>> Yes.

>> But even I've been impressed with the output already.

>> Thank you.

You're cranking?

Yes.

>> You're doing a lot of great work.

And this hour coming up, but I want to ask, why are you so bad at retirement?

Why do you what do you fear about retirement?

>> I really don't.

I, you know, it just it may be partly genetic.

I have an older brother who's 79 years old.

He flew commercial airlines forever.

He had back then.

He had to retire at age 60 because of the law.

That's changed.

He flew privately for a while.

He's not flying now.

But at age 79, he's still doing simulator training for Recertifying military and some intelligence folks.

So maybe it's partly genetic.

Maybe we just don't retire.

Well, it's part time for him.

It's not full time.

You know, and and I think it's similar.

I think my brother loves flying and I love what I did and what I'm still doing.

So I never really intended to abandon it.

It was just a question of where and how I would do it and at what pace.

It's a different pace, I assure you, than what I was doing.

>> Well, so maybe I should ask you.

Maybe I should read the email.

I was going to save this for later, but I just want to ask you a little bit from this is from Sean again, who heard our tease this morning and writes, Does Gary think he got out at the right time, given the state of journalism today?

I wonder what you think about.

>> That.

That's a good question.

no.

I mean, if anything, I mean, I still have hope for journalism.

And admittedly, it's a tough time to have hope for journalism.

You know, sadly, the DNC just, you know, had buyouts about a month after I retired.

So I was on the wrong timing of that.

That deal.

So it could have been getting paid into March or so.

>> I think they did that.

>> On purpose.

Maybe so.

But anyway.

But no, no, that really it's sort of the state of journalism had nothing to do with my decision.

I mean, I'm at an age where I was ready.

I kind of wanted to do something different and do it really more on my own terms.

I haven't given up on local journalism.

I'm still I promote it with my Substack as much as I can.

and, and you know, I still there's still good work being done out there at the DNC here.

Rochester Beacon, which I've been doing some work for and you know, Rbj Daily Record, I think I wrote in my kind of here's what my Substack is.

It used to be you could go to 1 or 2 sources and maybe get a pretty good picture of what's happening locally.

Those days are sadly gone.

But I think if you, you know, kind of digest most of the local media here, you can still get a pretty good picture because everybody sort of has their different niches, they're fulfilling and finding.

>> Well, I want to ask you also about what local newsrooms are going to do if they survive at all.

And I'm thinking of a piece that I read last night, on the Atlantic by a high school student in New York City, and the title of the piece is I'm a High Schooler.

A guy is demolishing my education.

Wow.

And the piece she describes in the piece, the way that not only students are cheating with A.I., but the way that students are now graduating really unequipped to do deep thinking and hard work, and that they're spending a lot of time working on workarounds.

The rules against A.I., instead of actually learning how to think.

And the reason I'm thinking about this with journalism is I could see very, very soon newsrooms in air quotes existing just using A.I.

to take press releases and repackage them, using A.I.

to listen to a press conference and then package a story.

I mean, I can do that already.

Oh, yes.

but I think that something in the same way this high school student says, something gets lost when all you're doing is using A.I.

to to to do the work for you.

What gets lost in journalism when when A.I.

does the work and human beings don't?

>> I think a number of things.

One, you mentioned, you know, the critical thinking, and that's obviously part of journalism decide, you know, what's integral to the story, what's not, you know, who's maybe being truthful, who's not.

I mean, A.I.

is probably more advanced than I'm giving it credit for here, but I it is, as you said, largely packaging, I think.

And if you look, I mean, it's kind of entertaining yet scary if you just go into like Google and plug in something that you know about, even plug in like, like for a while there, I would like the Twitter X, whatever.

You know, you could plug in the description of yourself, you know, and maybe you could still do that and find it.

I would read it as like, wait a minute, who is this person?

I didn't, you know, I would have a little bit, right?

But it would be basically my latest tweets would be whatever.

My overall fondness was if I tweeted about the bills.

Apparently I'm kind of an abbot.

That's not a good example, but see a tweet about the Cleveland Browns.

Maybe they would think I was a Cleveland Browns fan.

Yeah.

And and.

>> So over extrapolating.

>> Small sample sizes very much.

And so I think there's that there's there is this sort of inability to a degree to I think double check, triple check at the, to the, the way folks do it these days, at least folks in journalism should sadly separate from A.I.

I mean, we seem to be sort of diverting from critical thinking in many fields anyway.

I mean, even before the advent of A.I., we seem to be going down a road where, you know, I think, again, without into the social media bashing, that's part of it.

But I do worry.

I mean, we're seeing A.I., we fought it.

You know, we had the guild fight a year ago over a new contract at the DNC.

And one of the things we fought over was the use of A.I.

in our newsroom.

And we weren't completely successful, but we were largely successful in holding it off.

and I can tell you, the folks in the newsroom there basically don't use it.

They make basically go to lengths to make sure they're not using it.

But how long will that last?

yeah.

That's it's a real concern.

I think.

And there's something I mean, it sounds trite, but it's just not human.

I mean, there's something to a voice that I think certain writers, certain reporters, certain journalists perhaps have their insights, their, you know, their experiences that I just don't know how you replicate that with A.I.

I don't know how you do it.

>> I don't either, and I worry that that's what's going to be left in local newsrooms.

I hope I'm wrong.

yeah.

>> Me too.

But I understand the fear.

>> Yeah.

talking to Gary.

Craig, by the way, if you want to get Gary Craig's Substack, it's very easy to find.

Just Google Gary Craig's Substack.

Yes.

Have you.

Do you even.

>> Know I didn't name it that?

>> I didn't think you did.

>> I was too busy enjoying retirement to name my Substack.

>> Well, to be fair, you never even knew the name of your own book when you were on the show.

Why would you know the name of your own?

>> That's why I didn't want to give it a name, because I knew I would come on here and forget it.

>> but it's easy to find, and I'm curious to know with 300 plus subscribers already, can this be a decent financial boon to you?

>> it's funny you ask that I'm already having to sort of figure navigating the money part, because.

And thanks for subscribing, by the way.

I didn't pay a ton of attention to the way the money part works.

And so people who subscribed for a year paid for the year, and people who subscribe monthly pay for the month, well, that meant my very first, which was just a few days ago, my very first arrival of money was pretty good because a number of people had subscribed for the.

>> For.

>> The year, and the downside of that is I thought, oh, wait a minute, at some point I'm going to stop this.

Not for a year or more, but if people keep subscribing for a year, I'd be like, I've got to find some way.

And I think I got to look at it more to see if there's a way, at some point where I know, okay, maybe a year from now I'm going to rethink this to make it only monthly subscriptions, because I don't want somebody to come in and subscribe for a year.

And two months later I stop and I've got to figure out the refund and everything.

But yeah, the very first one.

But overall, no, I mean, you know, I mean, it's still growing.

It is.

But I it's, it's some nice extra money.

But at the same time, you know, I'm paying for things that didn't pay for before.

I'm paying for my Newspapers.com subscription, I'm paying for pacer.

I come downtown and park for an interview.

It's basically a one month subscription from somebody.

And so there are costs so that I have to factor into.

>> How long do you think that you can keep doing that?

And and do you, do you think that at least some of that income from Substack helps you keep doing it for a while now?

>> Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I had no intention of doing it for free.

I just good.

Yeah.

>> Free labor.

>> Right?

Yeah, exactly.

>> Especially somebody who's negotiated contracts.

>> Yeah.

I mean, sit at the bargaining table, whatever you.

>> Want to give away your labor for free.

>> Yes.

but, you know, I pretty much told myself I'll definitely do this a year, and it's and I there's nothing in the first couple of months of it that make me think, oh, you know, I can't do that.

If anything, it's like I have a certain number I kind of want to do each week and try to make sure that I don't toss out more because I want to save some for later because I just, you know, I'll wake up and have an idea and I might do it, I might not, I might do it the next day.

>> So why is everybody so interested in Oak Hill?

>> Oh, God.

>> So so let's start with the Oak Hill story, because, Gary, you've written that everywhere you go, people, somebody is grabbing you going like, you got it, you got to stay on this Oak Hill story.

Yeah.

So I want you to describe what the Oak Hill story is.

But before we even get there, why do why does the public care so much about what's going on at Oak Hill Country Club?

>> I, I think there is sort of a money part to it.

I mean, I think there's some people I think there's a number of reasons.

One is there are some people that see this sort of infighting among folks with money.

I mean, let's face it, if you're a member of Oak Hill, you're probably okay financially.

but there's there's either others.

I mean, I hear from other country clubs, there's this weird like, I mean, it's almost like British soccer teams or something.

If you're if they just don't, they don't like.

And it's so bizarre and I hear and there's we can get into it when we talk about the story I mean there's I hear from a number of Oak Hill members who really it's not that they're fond and they're on the side of the the members internally who are suing.

It's just they just they're embarrassed by it all.

And I hear from them and I, I mean, I got called this was months ago, probably.

And, you know, the rotary here called me and said, hey, can you come speak?

I was like, oh, sure.

You want me to talk about certain stories?

Like, no, just talk about Oak Hill.

>> Like what?

>> So there's.

>> Probably some some local members at rotary.

>> Exactly.

That's what I was wondering.

And, it's so it's just it's been so odd.

I mean, just to get to what the story is, but the first.

So the lawsuit was October of last year.

Then I'll talk about what it was.

We were actually away at Cape Cod and somebody sent it to me and I said, okay, I'm going to wait till we get home because and then I did, without getting into specific like metrics, numbers, numbers that show how many page views.

>> Yeah.

>> Sure, sure.

yeah.

My mine usually do fairly well.

This was like the first day, five times of my normal page views.

>> It did huge numbers.

>> It was crazy.

It was crazy.

>> Everybody wanted to know what's going on.

>> I was like, what in the world?

>> And it was one of those stories that sounds like where you thought this could be okay, and you did not anticipate it blowing up the way it has?

>> No.

And I could keep writing.

I mean, there's stuff, you know, incrementally over the last week with a lawsuit, I could probably write it weekly, but I really don't want to, you know, it's just.

>> Like your readers care more about this than you do.

>> It's kind of odd.

>> okay, so what is the story?

What's going on at Oak Hill?

>> okay, so probably a year ago, spring, a member and it's I mean, it's been in the stories and also a member, Eugene Baldino, who was on the board at the time, was was raising some issues about financial things and all with the board.

He wanted more transparency, whether it's necessary or not.

That's that's a whole other issue.

Well, he also had this incident in which there was a seating issue in the the dining area where somebody members weren't getting seated as they should and all.

And he got angry over that.

And here's where the whole thing gets a little murky.

Had an interaction with the the the young restaurant manager or the dining manager and all.

And and well, the Oak Hill version of events, the Oak Hill people who are being sued, which is the club and the board, et cetera, was that he was particularly coarse and brass, you know, just rude to her and just really unpleasant, you know, just really boorish and really bad behavior very much.

That's, that's the version of events from them.

So they have an internal investigation.

They decide that, yes, he's, you know, does not meet the Oak Hill Code of ethics.

The way he's acted.

This is apparently incident number two.

They allege.

So they remove him as a board member on the board of directors.

This is where it gets a little arcane.

And I would be lying to say I fully grasp it.

There's like several.

So it's the lesser interest, but it's really what the lawsuit hinges on.

>> okay.

>> Yeah.

there is a process whereby because these which is a whole other story, these are nonprofits, not nonprofits, where you if you donate to and you get a tax break, but they are still under the law, nonprofits and there are rules for removal of directors under state law.

How you do it?

Well, Baldino and a number of people who sided with him said they did not follow the proper statutes to do this.

They sued under that, and Oak Hill responded.

And it just to be honest, when the suit came, I thought it would just be settled quietly, you know, that everybody would, you know, they'd find some way.

Instead, you know, Oak Hill came out guns blazing, put the entire internal investigation in their, you know, their court papers and everything.

And and that was just the start.

I've been completely wrong.

Every time I thought it would settle and and and it's just gone from there.

Well, then, so you add this other element.

So obviously this interaction with the, you know, the employee is very crucial to this because that is the sort of the nexus that led to his removal.

Well, the employee, after months of not being heard from which it wasn't that she should be, but basically responds and says, no, that's yeah, he was upset, but he was no more upset than many people I've dealt with.

It really was nothing like the way it was described.

And she has since sued Oak Hill.

>> And she sides with him.

>> Yeah.

And so and I'm thinking, okay, maybe it'll settle now.

No, it's not.

So if you read the court papers, Oak Hill's basically saying, well, her story has changed since the early.

And, I mean, I used to think there's no way this thing is heading to trial.

I just can't imagine this is going to get to trial.

But now I'm like, this may get to trial because it just.

And now, I mean, the other part and this is what angers some Oak Hill members who, again, really don't have a they don't they're not siding with one side or the other is because this is this internal fight.

Board member.

You know, he says he's still on the board against board member insurance isn't covering it, so they may end up paying this sort of extra fee to cover the lawsuit costs, which are getting expensive.

They have two major law firms on their side.

One of the directors had to get his own attorney because of a conflict issue.

And it's just it's it's crazy.

>> Is it is it accurate that some Oak Hill members were either threatened or warned not to speak publicly about this?

>> Oh, yeah.

That's the funny thing with this.

I wish that when I was covering local government and courts that people would send me internal stuff at the rate people send it to.

>> Me here.

>> I mean, there's not like.

>> You've been trying to develop.

>> Sources all across town.

>> And you've got leaks everywhere.

>> At Oak Hill, and I'm not.

>> Seeking them out.

>> The emails just keep.

>> These internal emails, just keep coming.

And, you know, and that was one thing where somebody sent me, oh, here's several people who've spoken out and they got these letters that, hey, you could be, you know, in violation of our code of ethics.

One of the things early on I wrote about was that one of the board members, it was a very close split whether to remove this guy.

I think it was might have been only a one vote margin.

and coincidence or not, the one woman on the board who's a lawyer, basically, somebody sent me this memo that she'd sent around before I spoke and said, hey, you know, we might want to back step back and get outside counsel because we really want to make sure we're doing this properly.

They did not follow that advice.

And now here we are.

Yeah.

>> It's okay.

>> So I think I'll give you my my psychological theory of why people care.

>> About okay.

Please, please.

>> I do think it's mostly because the average person is never going to be able to afford to get past the gate at Oak Hill.

Yeah.

And that even though Oak Hill has this national reputation, it's hosted major events.

It's got, as you write, future major golf tournaments coming.

>> Yes.

>> 2037 Women's Open.

you know, Ted Ryder Cups.

It's had PGA Championships at the U.S. open.

>> 30 years this year from the Ryder Cup.

>> Yeah that's right 1995 Ryder Cup.

So it has all of this history nationally.

But locally it's just a place that most people can't afford to go and will never go to.

And there's always a little schadenfreude when people look at the wealthiest and the gated and and and say, oh, so you're not perfect.

You know, you guys have your own, you know,.

>> Scandals and tabloid TV stuff that goes on, and they don't mind a little, a little mud flying around there.

I think that that's probably what.

>> This is.

And that's, I mean, because as you mentioned, I sort of put out a call in one of the Substacks and that aligns with a lot of the response I got from people that, oh, yeah, the moneyed folks just are misbehaving over there.

>> And.

>> And having said that, I mean, I know a number of people who are members who I, who talk to me openly about this, and I like all of them.

There's probably many members that, you know, it's probably a small percentage of the folks who actually know, though, to be clear.

>> and by the way, there in your most recent writing on this, on your Substack, talking to Gary Craig, longtime journalist, he's got a Substack.

You should subscribe, listeners, there's something that I'm just going to say was weird.

There was a song, there was like.

>> A.

>> What in the world can you describe for listeners?

What was this?

>> This is what it's.

>> Come to.

And sure enough, like somebody sent me that this is from the the Oak Hill side.

It's basically a song written that shows, you know, that we're not going to give up.

We're not going to back down.

It pokes fun at the fellow again.

It's not as if it's a secret.

Eugene Baldino, who I think in the song becomes Jeannie Baldini and you know, local businessman who's retired and it's like, this is what it's come to.

We're now doing parody songs about a lawsuit that's going to be in the millions and millions of dollars.

Maybe not multiple millions, but probably close.

I think we're nearing a million already in costs, and we're still a ways from trial.

And this is it kind of tells you that, okay, nobody's really backing down here.

>> But could this affect his ability to attract future events in its national reputation?

>> That's the big question.

I mean, my sense is so far it hasn't I have heard from a number of people who are members who are particularly worried about that.

Did it just looks and and to be fair, I've, I've heard from people, they think that I've been unfair to the Oak Hill side.

I personally don't think so.

I've given them chances.

>> I no, I've read everything, you know, you've not been unfair.

>> I've given them chances to respond to a number of things.

And but I think that's really I mean, I've heard from some members that, you know, one in particular without naming who said he had a conversation with somebody, said word was starting to leak out, you know, kind of in whatever the golf circles are that make the decisions and all.

But I've yet to hear that sort of any substantive substantively, I can't even talk today.

See?

I'm retired.

I'm losing my losing my speech ability.

>> I don't think you and I are going to get invited to play at Oak Hill anytime soon.

>> It's so funny because you know, when I left the DNC, if you look at the DNC, we do these little sort of bio things at the end of our stories now, and this is the kind of stuff that I'm ready to retire because and I understand the purpose of it.

It's like it was for SEO, search engine optimization.

It apparently helps click Google.

And there's so much of that stuff, it's like, geez, I'm spending more time on this than I'm writing the darn stories.

And I admit that was part of like, okay, let me Substack.

It's a very, you know, user friendly and doesn't take me much time.

So a lot of them are just straight biographical stuff.

And I got tired of mine just being that.

So I started crafting my own for the Oak Hill stories and like, like the first one was something with first name.

Gary Craig is not a member of Oak Hill or any other country club.

And then I did something about golf.

I got an email from guys.

I just don't think you like golf.

It's like, no.

And so my next one was I'm indifferent to golf, just as I am to bowling.

>> And so.

>> But it was like, people started thinking, oh, this guy's anti golf or something like, no, that's really not what's driving this.

>> No.

okay.

Well that's where it is with Oak Hill.

maybe some listeners could elucidate why this story continues to get such attention.

But, as Gary Craig says, there's no indication it will ever end.

Maybe it will go on forever.

>> Well.

>> They're going on longer than you expected.

>> There will be a trial at some point in time.

I will be there every day.

I'm sure.

>> Your old colleague at the Democrat and Chronicle, Dave Andreatta, writes.

>> Oh, Dave.

>> To say great to hear Gary on the air.

He mentioned in one of his latest blogs about the difficulty of reporting without having the weight of the DNC, of a large news outlet behind him.

Can he talk about that?

What challenges has he found in being an independent journalist, and how does he think that bodes for other independent journalists?

>> Thanks, Dave.

great guy, by the way, and a marvelous writer and reporter.

yeah, that is something I've had concern about so far.

I mean, because, you know, locally, for better or for worse, I'm kind of known.

So I have not had a problem locally.

Matter of fact, I just reached out to Kodak about I was, you know, I was going to write something about Kodak originally.

And then you guys have done a great job.

The DNC wrbj.

So like, oh, how do I recraft this?

I'll get back to that in a moment.

But they responded within 24 hours.

It was great.

It's tougher.

Like when I write state agencies or others, you know, I do say, by the way, I've did this for 45 years, you know, and so it's it's not I'm coming out of the blue with this.

I have yet to reach a point where that's that's been a huge obstacle.

I do worry that it will be.

I reached out to the AG's office for something about Kodak.

I didn't hear back, but to be honest, I'm not sure if I had heard back when I was at the DNC.

Not always the most responsive but that that is something that, I do think at some point I'm going to be up against because you're going like there's so many people with Substacks now it's wild.

And so I can't even imagine, though a lot of them aren't really news based out there, sort of trying to do original reporting.

but I, I can imagine being the PR person getting, oh, here's my 14th Substack request of the day.

Oh.

>> Well, that I mean, it's a really good question from Dave, because a lot of this fragmented media is going in that direction.

We're seeing, you know, individual content creators.

I don't even like that term.

And I'm not I'm not putting you in that category.

You're creating journalism.

But even content creators are getting seats at The White House press briefing.

Yes.

You know, these individuals with large followings and whatnot.

So for people who want to break into that, young people who might maybe in a past generation would have been an aspiring journalist.

Yes.

Now they're an aspiring content creator.

I don't know that they're getting taught the same things about journalism, but they may seek to do some of this.

I don't know.

I don't know what the field is going to be populated with or or where it goes.

Do you.

>> Know?

And I wrote I did a lot of these things have just been like spur of the moment.

The Attica one was yesterday, Labor Day, one I did, and I wrote in the Labor Day one about our strike last year.

You know what?

Yeah.

Somebody said when I announced my retirement on Twitter.

Oh, yeah, he was great.

He was out there, you know, fighting for the contract.

I was motivated, inspired by the young reporters.

I mean, they they're committed to their work.

They were committed to I thought, you know, really making sure we had a fair newsroom, that people were treated fairly and equitably.

And so that's where I still kind of get my hope.

I mean, that there are I mean, I've I'm meeting this week with, you know, one of the DNC young reporters to sort of, you know, talk some court stuff and help and and so when I see that and I've seen that, you know, because I was in the business a long time, I constantly saw that.

And I saw that when I left the DNC newsroom.

And I bet if I went back ten years from now, I hope I would still see that.

So that's where my kind of hope continues.

I mean, I hope it's not a blind hope, but I kind of hang on to that.

>> I also think to Dave's question about having the weight of a news organization versus being independent, some of that doesn't matter if people in power think that they can get their message and their ideas out to people without journalists anymore.

And I mean, this is not even a new idea.

It was 2017.

Maybe, that an advisor to a mayor who I will not name said to me in a meeting, we don't need you.

>> Yes.

>> We don't need journalists.

We can do it our way now.

So, you know, if you're not happy with what you're getting, you know you might get less and you have to like it because we just don't need journalists anymore.

And politicians don't need journalists anymore.

>> And I think I think that's a mindset really.

And it doesn't matter.

Party or, you know, position with government.

I think that's a growing mindset.

And there is some truth to it.

I mean, they sort of have this unfiltered social media that they use.

And I think that's why it's even more important that those in journalism, the shrinking numbers, but the numbers that are there, you know, be as diligent and vigilant as they can, whether it's through the process, you know, the reporting, et cetera.

>> I agree as we go to break and when we come back from our only break of the hour, I do want to talk to more to Gary, more about what he has written this week about Attica, of course, very few in our profession have written about Attica the way that Gary Craig has.

And we're going to talk about that.

but as we go to break, Charles writes to say, Evan, Gary Craig has the Oak Hill fiasco down perfectly.

I am not rich.

However, I am close to someone involved in this mess and I don't see it being settled anytime soon.

And I want to add, with apologies to Don Henley, people love dirty laundry.

>> That's a good point.

Yes.

Oh they do.

>> Pretty, pretty good animation.

>> And the funny thing is, if I get deep into the papers, there's even like petty stuff that has nothing to do with a lawsuit that I could be writing about.

It's like at some point I probably will, but it's just I've really been avoiding that so far.

>> Oh my gosh, I'm getting other emails about about Oak Hill.

>> Of course you are.

>> Patrick, I see your email.

I cannot read this on the air.

I cannot encourage what you are suggesting.

Patrick.

I just want you to know that I read your email.

Let's take our only break and let's find something else to talk about before I get in trouble.

Gary Craig, longtime Democrat and Chronicle journalist who retired earlier this year and now writes a Substack under his own name that you ought to subscribe to.

and I'd say that because I want you to subscribe to the Democrat and Chronicle and Gary Substack, and I hope you're a member of WXXI, if you can afford to, because I hope you support journalism.

I'm glad Gary's still doing it.

Let's come back and talk about more of his work on the other side.

I'm Evan Dawson Friday on the next Connections are you pessimistic about A.I.?

Are you worried about what it means for the future, for students, for workers?

For all of us?

We're going to talk to a man who has worked in A.I.

for decades and is much more optimistic about where it is taking us.

He'll make the case in the first hour.

In our second hour, a conversation with the head of the local chapter for Conscious Capitalism about the surprising success of the Savannah bananas.

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Mary Cariola for.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Gary says it's why we watched Downton Abbey at the Little Oak Hill is Rochester's Downton Abbey.

>> Yeah, that's probably right on point.

>> okay, there you go.

I'm going to try to move on from Oak Hill.

>> okay.

Thank you.

Hope the listeners will allow it.

>> I don't know if we can.

We may just do the whole.

>> Welcome to my world.

>> Exactly.

I was really moved by what you wrote about Attica.

And you note that in what you wrote this week that it was, what, back in 2022, that you wrote a piece that ran in USA today?

Yes.

Calling on New York State to issue a formal apology.

And that's not typically the role of a journalist.

you know, you arrived at this point.

I think you earned the credibility to make this, this case because you have not only covered the stories for years, but you've gotten very close to some of the people involved, people we've met on this program over the years people who lost loved ones.

And so take listeners through what you think the state should do, what you wrote three years ago and where you are today with that.

>> I mean, so there was a group, The Forgotten Victims of Attica, which was, you know, the employees who were really treated poorly in the aftermath of the 1971 uprising.

And they successfully came together and got some money from the state, which they they'd been cheated out of.

You know, the sadly, the widows had been convinced to take workers comp which precluded them from lawsuits and, you know, but the money was not the most important.

There were other things.

There were five things they wanted and they got most of them, but they did not get an apology.

That was one thing they wanted.

And I know that in the state circles through the years, there have been sort of drafts of apologies.

People have considered it, but it's never gotten very far.

And the idea it's not unheard of, you know, we we apologize for the Japanese internment camps.

There's been apologies throughout.

And it's and some people say, oh, it's a slippery slope.

No, it's not.

>> A slippery slope.

What's the risk?

What people describe.

Well, I don't know.

Is it is it litigation.

Is it liability.

>> No.

That's all I mean.

>> That's all settled by now, right?

>> Exactly.

It's all resolved.

I mean, the forgotten victims of Attica didn't even really have a possible litigation route, but they thankfully, you know, through, you know, pressure, were able to get something out of it.

And so that's an absurd argument.

And that's one that the state when the state task force that worked with the forgotten victims of Attica, the report is funny, but in a sad way that it it highlights everything the state did wrong to a precipitate the riot, which was the awful conditions in which were really, really bad to people who think they weren't.

And then the response which led to the deaths, et cetera., you know, questions of whether there are true murderers in the yard, whether, you know, there's testimony of somebody standing over an inmate and killing him, and, and so this not all of that was highlighted in the report, but much was highlighted about the many state's errors.

And then it says, oh, but we can't apologize because it would be a slippery slope.

It's like, come on.

And so I really thought Governor Hochul, having been from Western New York, having known people who, you know, were involved in this, might be different, that it might be closer to her heart.

And there and I think Dequin Miller, whose memoir I helped her with and I were on your show a few years ago and yeah.

And there was a belief in 2021, which was the 50th anniversary, which was a big, you know, at the the prison they have annual event on September 13th, the day of the retaking, and it was a huge crowd from around the nation.

And there was a real belief based on stuff that was going on that Governor Hochul was going to do it that day.

I mean, it wasn't, you know, just fantasy.

There was basically from some internal messages, I believe people were getting it was going to happen and it didn't.

And I've never quite seen heard of a return to it.

And I don't I don't I don't know what it is.

I mean, I'm perhaps the state police are opposed.

I don't know, because sometimes, maybe unfairly, they're painted as the villains because they were the ones in charge of storming the yard.

And, you know, the fuselage of gunfire that led to all the deaths.

I don't think the corrections, the corrections officers were on the side of forgotten victims all along.

So I don't think their union is opposed to it at all.

So I'm not really sure where the political pushback is, but I just gather there's some.

>> I suspect this is just a supposition.

Is it too risky in the governor's mind to issue an apology that could be perceived as anti-police?

>> Yeah, there's probably something to that.

I think, you know, and it's hard, especially now, to to for the full story to be told.

I mean, I think if people know the full story and know that, you know, the families of the corrections officers who were killed or who survived and, you know, their lives were pretty much messed up for a long time, are fully behind this.

I mean, I think if you tell you can't tell the full story, obviously, but if you at least make that part of the story and maybe you're out there getting those supports that support, those people are vocal at the time, maybe that changes it.

But I think that is surely part of the equation.

>> Have you had a chance to interview the governor?

>> I have not, I mean, it's.

>> Funny, you never have.

>> I.

>> You haven't talked to her one.

>> On one.

Not since being governor.

I think I might have back when she was in Erie County.

It's funny, because I actually know her husband when he was U.S. attorney.

Right.

Fairly.

I mean, I'd say fairly well, but I dealt with Bill Hochul a lot, and so but I never, never his wife much.

No.

>> I haven't either.

Yeah.

She has been one of the more inaccessible politicians.

Now, granted, she's in Albany.

She's the governor of the state.

but we've had a chance to talk to us senators and members of Congress and and Governor Cuomo many times.

before Kathy Hochul, never the governor.

And she's just not been very accessible.

I find her to be very careful and controlled in the interview.

She does, and I'm disappointed that she hasn't been on this program.

I would love to ask her about this.

What would you ask her?

What would you, if you had a chance to sit down with Governor Hochul?

What would you ask?

>> It's so funny because I've actually thought if she does press conferences, just showing up and throwing this question out of the blue and everybody's like, what hell is he talking about?

But.

>> It might be your only shot to get it.

>> Exactly.

No, I think that's true.

I think, I mean, I know she knows of it.

There's no there's no doubt in my mind that she knows the request for the apology.

I know it got to her.

I know people who worked with her, who knew it got to her.

So it's not as if I'd have to completely lay the groundwork fresh.

But I think I would just simply ask, have you considered it and tell me why or why not tell me you have not done it?

Why not?

And maybe she has a perfectly good rationale for that, that I don't know.

But I think it would just be as simple as that.

>> Well, I mean, I, I don't know if you'll have a chance to do that.

I hope you do have a chance to do that.

But at this point, as you write, you are losing confidence quickly that she.

>> Has any.

Yeah.

I mean, I really the reason I did the 2022 piece was okay, it's a year, a year after the anniversary, things were calm.

I mean, it's yeah, that's probably, you know, as you said, it's not something a reporter typically does.

But that was one time in my management was fine.

They said, yeah, go for it.

I said, look, you know, I've written about this so long, and so that's and I saw that USA today and they said we'd run it.

And that's why I thought, okay, things have calmed down.

She was relatively new in office at 2021, so I understood that maybe there was some hesitancy to sort of step into this, you know, kind of I don't really know, think it's a controversial minefield, but some perhaps do.

But just so now we're at 2025, and I've heard no indication, you know, and I know D Quinn Miller again, who we've been here together.

I know she through the years has sort of continued to try to push.

I haven't talked to D about it this year actually.

I don't know if she's done anything or not about it, but.

>> Well, I guess maybe a future administration.

But at the same time, Gary, when I think about Attica, 1971.

>> 1971.

>> 1971, it is it's hard to think of it this way, but I consider the idea that eventually all of our graves go unattended, and the way that we lose what used to be something that everybody would know about, there will come a time where very few people walking down the street will know what you're talking about.

When you raise the idea of Attica, we're not there yet.

>> Oh, yes.

>> We're not there yet.

>> We're getting closer, though.

Yes, but.

>> The state can, can, can hold out.

The state can wait it out and never issue that apology and probably get away with it.

>> That's the thing.

But again, I come and maybe you may be right on point with the fear of like, is there a law enforcement pushback in my it's like, what's the harm?

I mean, why?

I just don't see anything of consequence that bites the governor or bites the state if they do this.

>> Yeah.

all right, let's talk about some of the other things that you've been writing about, if you don't mind, in Gary Craig's Substack, a Rochester hitman on the verge of release.

Should people should people be worried?

>> Yes.

>> What's the story?

>> Dominic Taddeo, contracted hitman back in the 70s here went off to prison for, what was it, 30 plus years for sort of Rico crimes, including murders.

And and I will take pride in saying that when he it was an escape.

But it's not like, you know, the great escape.

But basically, he was at a halfway house within a year of release, which was bizarre, able freely to walk to his doctor appointment.

This is 2022, and he just left and never came back.

So it was an escape under the law.

what I take pride in is that we were actually the first one to break that story in 2022, and the New York Times was the only media that gave us credit for it.

So thank you, New York Times.

And then we broke when he was captured, too.

and so just I mean, I was always interested when Tateo comes out because I say truth, I it sounds weird.

a mobster whom I knew he's no longer with us, was concerned about Tateo coming out and was asking me when I knew if I knew when he was coming out.

And that person is no longer with us.

Sounds weird to tell that story, but, sorry, but,, and so when this whole escape happened and all that, really, I mean, it became national news.

He was, you know, at the times, the tabloids had him, et cetera.

And I actually wrote him a letter when he was captured back at prison trying to get an interview, but never heard back.

So now that we're only months away from his release, I said, oh, let's revisit this.

And I thought, nah, I'll wait till I start my Substack.

I'll see about it.

When I was at the DNC, I said, no, I'll save this one.

And so I milked two out of it, actually.

So, and thought about a third, but that seemed a little excessive.

was the first one.

Was is he gonna is he going to be released or is he going to get the itch to, like, do something stupid again?

But it looks like he's going to get out in October.

And then the second one was and this actually kind of coming back to Dave's question of trying to get answers, you know, without maybe I don't know if it's the weight of the DNC or it's just the fact that nobody really wanted to talk about it.

It was my second was about should people be worried when he comes out and, you know, people that may have crossed him or people that may have prosecuted him?

Well, and thankfully, I knew enough folks in law enforcement circles from that era to to call them and get like, you know, trying to get official answers.

And I was just having no luck anyway.

And I might not have regardless.

So that was the second one.

And Dominic Taddeo comes out in October.

He plans his mom's way up in years.

I assume she's still alive in Florida.

His plan was to live with her.

and we'll see.

I don't foresee any problems with Dominic Taddeo, to be honest.

To be honest.

>> You talk about getting letters from mobsters.

I don't want to overstate this, but I bet you got more letters from prison than most reporters.

>> I got a lot.

>> Do you get used to getting letters from mobsters and going, wow, some people are opening up to you.

They're they're they're spilling their guts to you.

>> yeah.

It was odd sometimes.

I mean, I had Tom Taylor who came out after 25 years in prison.

You know, Tom and I actually had a good relationship when he came back.

He actually spoke at my RIT class.

Yeah, him and his lawyer, John Speranza, came and spoke to my class.

yeah.

I mean, it's not happening now, obviously.

And it sort of slowed down the more, you know, the later years of the DNC, too, because I'd done a lot more prison reporting.

And it's funny talking about prison reporting.

I have this series of substacks ready to go about when I was writing about Amy Fisher, Long Island, Lolita, and how Oprah Winfrey claimed to have the exclusive interview.

But I actually interviewed her like five hours before, and I was talking to people about Amy Fisher, and I was like, who's that?

I was like, oh jeez, is anybody going to want to read this?

I don't know.

>> Well, you know, on a different story here, I don't think this is a story.

A killer who helps hopes to help others.

>> Oh, Robert Veeder yeah.

>> Tell us that story.

>> try not to get emotional.

So,, we met try to be concise.

Robert and I met, oddly, the bat.

McGrath, you know, was supposed to be the farewell.

He, you know, thankfully lived long enough to come back and do one more.

But.

And Robert and his wife and my Charlotte, my wife and myself were at a table with Robert and Doug Emblidge.

You know who your good friends with?

And Doug and I are friends.

And Robert and Doug know each other and friends introduced us.

And it was very early on I learned that Robert, years ago was living in North Carolina and sadly had alcohol problems, had drug problems, was coming back from a bar one night in Raleigh, had too much to drink, and it was just like this perfect storm of everything bad that could happen where there had already been an accident at this intersection.

You know, one car sort of run the stop sign, hit another, and not to the fatality extent.

You know, people weren't dead, but people were helping and people were coming from the neighborhood.

Robert comes sort of an incline there over two drunk, honestly, to stop quickly enough.

And he plows through and kills six people that were there to help others.

And and this guy I don't think I'm speaking out of school.

And obviously he and I talked a lot, so I didn't think about writing a story about it.

Then at the first I learned of it.

Then he and I kept bumping into each other at Starbucks, which Justin Murphy, when I was last on, talked about where I seemed to live and work and, and, and, and probably about a year and a half ago, I said, you know, this story because Robert councils now he's he's a treatment counselor.

He works with addicts, he works with alcoholics.

And the thing because, you know, sadly, I've talked to a lot of people that committed crimes through the years.

And I had never in my life.

And I don't know if I've actually interviewed.

He's killed more people than anybody I've ever interviewed, but one would be probably four.

But, that's neither here nor there.

But I don't know of any person I met who owns it and tries to find a way to make amends every day of his life for it.

And and, you know, and that and that just struck me.

There was something in that story that, you know, you can't it was not to basically accept what he'd done or anything like that, but was like, is it possible to make something out of a horrible situation, out of a horrible thing you've done?

And to me, he was just such an example of somebody really trying to do that with all his heart, with all his soul, with all his energy, and we as I.

It was odd.

I wrote a first person piece saying that, you know, we've gotten to be friends because I wanted that sort of out there and up front, and we talk.

We really get together like once a week now, and we spent over a year and I would take notes and sometimes I would and sometimes we would just BS.

And I originally thought about a narrative series, a multi-day series, but a I thought that would have been excessive and b getting too close to retirement to do.

And so yeah, that was and that story is interesting.

The Raleigh News Observer, where it happened.

I actually did a column about this, a Substack.

They ran it also.

They they wanted to run it.

So it oddly ran in two states on the front page of two newspapers on the same day.

>> let's get back to, if not Oak Hill.

>> Yes.

>> How about Genesee Valley?

>> Well.

>> GBC could be in financial trouble related to PCP loans and the pandemic.

>> Here.

>> And I think a little I think this is in the sphere of the same level of interest.

>> Yes.

No it's not.

Yeah.

>> okay.

It's not as as interesting to your readers as Oak Hill, but I think for some of the same reasons maybe.

>> Oh, no, I think I joked in one of my columns that somehow I become the country club reporter.

And, and this was, this was an offspring of Oak Hill and that somebody who travels in those circles got the internal email where they announced, oh, we've got these problems.

They sent it to me.

It's like which ended the email ended with, like, you know, basically imploring people, let's keep this to ourselves.

>> I should step back, Gary, because a lot of our listeners may not be members of the club, and they may have heard of it, but I mean, like, what's the GVC?

>> It's not a country club with golf.

It's it's it's a really I've done talks there.

It's a really wonderful place on East Avenue that's this long, long history.

I forgot how long maybe 140 years.

140.

And, you know, basically it's, you know, there's some there's there's some racket sports there and all, but it's also a place where there's, you know, lunches with speakers and people come and talk to probably a number of people who've been on the show about different issues and different topics.

So it's it's this combination of things that's sort of different than the golf country club in that way.

And and it has a long history and a lot, you know, a lot of people are members and and what happened was the whole thing is still a bit murky to be, to be honest.

but as I wrote in the Substack, because I researched this has happened to others across the country where they got these pptp loans first, they were determined to be ineligible, and then they were able to make the case.

This going back to the Biden administration, still in that administration, make the case.

Look, we're we're really getting rocked financially too.

And and they got the Pptp loans.

A number of them, they were forgiven, as happened with a lot of the Pptp money.

But now it seems, and not not just under Trump.

Some of this started under the Biden administration.

people are going back and reviewing and claiming that some of these places did not meet the criteria.

>> Shouldn't have gotten the money.

>> Yeah.

And but let's face it, I mean, that money there weren't I think, as we've seen some some of the fraud, et cetera., there weren't, weren't a lot of guardrails always with this money, which you can understand, they were trying to respond to this crisis.

>> I mean, Shake Shack was getting some money.

>> Well, exactly.

>> Yeah.

The Los Angeles Lakers I think got.

>> I mean so yeah.

And so it seems to and I cannot get this straight from, you know, the lawyer for GVC talked to me but only to say, look we're trying to negotiate.

Get this resolved.

what I saw with the others, what happened was there was a ruling by a Department of Justice who was responding to some of this because they were basically claiming it was an act of fraud, that the Pptp loans could only go to clubs that restricted membership by capacity, not by income, obviously, not by race or gender or anything like that.

But you could only say, look, you know, we can't, we don't have enough space to take you now, it's still, you know, if you could, I'm sure that if you could pay for it or if you couldn't pay for it, you could still they wouldn't have counted.

But I'm still not sure on how the specifics.

All this works.

It clearly, because I'm speaking very unclearly about it right now.

but I assume that's what happened.

The flip side with GVC is, though.

I mean, I get the sense that I mean, to commit an act of fraud is knowing.

And I there's some of these places that settled, and maybe it was just easier to settle and resolve it, but I just have a hard time seeing that these people with these, you know, these social clubs were taking this money knowingly, fraudulently.

And I feel the same way about GVC.

But I think, you know, that's all I can make out as to what the reason may be.

>> So but you don't see evidence of fraud yourself at least.

>> No, no, no, nothing like that at all.

I mean yeah.

>> But but they could be I mean, some of the communications that you have been able to get your hands on for your reporting indicate that they're telling their members we may not be able to cover this insurance may not cover this.

We may have to hit you with fees or dues or something to to cover this.

I mean, like, this could be a pretty big problem.

>> For them.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, you know, I think it was like a 700, some thousand dollars loan with, with penalties up to about 1.1, 1.2 million.

And, and similar to Oak Hill is that I mean, I'm not sure I guess this is something you know, if it's a determination of fraud, then perhaps that that's.

>> A.

>> Different insurance.

Yeah.

That's why insurance won't step in.

so yeah, just like Oak Hill, there's this possible, you know, extra money that the members will have to pay.

>> and what's the timeline for, for for seeing resolution there?

>> I don't know, I mean, the lawyer said they're negotiating.

I would think that we I can't imagine it go any more than a couple more months before they either.

Either they settle it or or none of these, from what I've seen.

And speaking to others who are involved, I've yet to see one that led to a civil action by Department of Justice saying you lost the money.

Everything got resolved before that point, so I assume that's what we'll see here.

>> what are you working on next?

In our last 90s here?

Oh, boy.

My notebook.

>> Of Substack ideas.

>> You're so old school.

>> I love it.

>> No, it's not sad.

It's really beautiful.

>> Yeah.

I got, like I said, the Amy Fisher one.

I've.

I sort of, you know, it's funny, I was, I think I mentioned in one, I tried to decide, okay, how much stuff like, I, we after your show, after the jazz Fest, we had a wedding in Ireland and a family vacation.

And I was with a couple of folks at lunch.

I was telling some stories and, like, one of them called me and said, you should put some of that in your Substack.

I was like, what?

But actually they were kind of interesting.

More I thought about it and so I said, maybe this occasional mix with stuff like that.

Not not that often, to be honest, because I only want to write that stuff so much.

but yeah, I mean, I'll be writing more about Oak Hill, obviously, and it's there's some court stuff.

I mean the last group of appellate rulings came out in July, which is like, right when I started, I wanted to write about, and and there was one which was the ruling related to the internet use of Payton Gendron.

and whether the companies, you know, meta, et cetera.

could be sued.

The Appellate Division ruled, no, that they were protected by the congressional Act.

And so I wrote that immediately because I'd been sort of waiting for that with the DNC.

But there was another one there that was really people have written about it, but and I didn't realize the consequences that could be of it statewide on criminal cases until I talked to more people.

So I've had that, like in my plan for like three weeks now.

And so that'll be forthcoming.

It's it's always something.

>> Always something.

Well, thank you for still doing that.

And listen I'm not going to monopolize too much of your time.

But I will say as long as you're still active, I still got your number, buddy, so.

>> Well, like I said, I'm the bad penny guest.

I keep showing up.

>> No, it's the good penny.

This community is grateful that you are still reporting Gary Craig's Substack.

Easy to find.

It doesn't even have, like a glitzy name or something clever.

It's just Gary Craig's Substack and you can subscribe now.

I would encourage you to do so.

I'm a subscriber myself, and I love to see the continuing great work of local journalism.

Thanks for telling those stories, and I'm sure we'll see you again.

>> Oh, thanks, Evan.

>> Appreciate it.

I'm not going to let you get away, sir.

That's Gary Craig.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching from all of us here at Connections.

We will be back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

>> Oh.

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