Laura: JEREMY, WELCOME.

Vesbach: THANKS LAURA.

I AM REALLY GLAD TO BE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WILDLIFE TODAY.

Laura: YOU WERE, UNTIL RECENTLY, ON THE NEW MEXICO  GAME COMMISSION.

I WANT TO START WITH SOME  BASICS.

WHAT IS THE NEW MEXICO GAME  COMMISSION?

Vesbach: WELL, WHILE I WAS  ON THERE UNTIL A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, I TOOK TO CALLING  IT THE WILDLIFE COMMISSION BECAUSE GAME HAS BECOME A  LITTLE BIT OF AN OUTMODED TERM TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN NEW  MEXICO BUT IT REALLY STARTED IN 1921, 101 YEARS AGO THIS  YEAR, TO PROTECT THE WILDLIFE SPECIES IN NEW MEXICO AND AT  THAT TIME THE MAJOR THREAT WAS UNREGULATED HUNTING, THAT, YOU  KNOW, WE HAD COMMERCIAL HUNTING, SO TO GET THAT UNDER  CONTROL, CREATE SCIENCE-BASED WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.

PEOPLE AT THE TIME REALLY RALLIED TO CREATE A SYSTEM  THAT BROUGHT SCIENCE FORWARD BUT ALSO BROUGHT PUBLIC INPUT  FORWARD AND CREATED WHAT IS CALLED THE NEW MEXICO GAME  COMMISSION TO OVERSEE THE NEW MEXICO DEPARTMENT GAME AND  FISH WHICH IS OUR STATE WILDLIFE AGENCY.

Laura: GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM RECENTLY REMOVED YOU  FROM THE GAME COMMISSION AND WE ARE GOING TO GET TO THAT IN  A MINUTE, BUT THE COMMISSION FOCUSES A LOT ON HUNTING AND  FISHING BUT THERE IS ALSO SOME OTHER ISSUES THAT AFFECT KIND  OF EVERYONE OR THE PUBLIC AS WELL.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE.

I REMEMBER THE STATE'S PARTICIPATION IN THE WOLF  REINTRODUCTION PROGRAM IS KIND OF AN ISSUE THAT DRAWS A LOT  OF ATTENTION WHENEVER THAT COMES UP, BUT WHAT ARE SOME OF  THE OTHER ONES?

Vesbach: THERE IS A STATE  ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND THE DEPARTMENT OF GAME AND FISH IS  ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR RECOVERING SPECIES THAT ARE IN TROUBLE  AND THAT CAN BE EVERYTHING FROM THE TEXAS HORNSHELL  MUSSEL TO THE LESSER PRAIRIE CHICKEN TO GRAY WOLVES, THE  MEXICAN WOLF.

SO, SETTING THOSE HABITAT  CONSERVATION PLANS, GOING OUT AND GETTING PUBLIC INPUT,  MAKING SURE EVERYBODY'S VOICE IS HEARD, BUT THAT SCIENCE IS  REALLY THE DRIVING FORCE AS WELL.

SO, WHAT THE GAME COMMISSION DOES IS SETS RULES AND  REGULATIONS AROUND TAKE OF ANIMALS   AND HABITAT PROJECTS, HOW WE SPEND MONEY TO RESTORE  HABITAT AND BRING BACK SPECIES.

SO IT IS REALLY, I SAY THE GAME COMMISSION SERVES THREE  CRITICAL PURPOSES.

ONE IS PROTECTING PEOPLES'  VOICE THAT DECISIONS ARE MADE OUT IN PUBLIC.

THE COMMISSION MEETS, DO OPEN MEETINGS ACT, THEY CANNOT  PREDETERMINE DECISIONS.

WHEN I WAS ON THE COMMISSION,  I COULDN'T CALL OTHER COMMISSIONERS AND SAY, HEY, I  THINK WE OUGHT TO VOTE THIS WAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THAT IS A RULE IN QUORUM YOU CAN'T TRY TO LINE UP ALL THOSE  VOTES AHEAD OF TIME.

YOU WANT TO PRESERVE THAT  DECISION MAKING IN PUBLIC SO YOU HEAR PEOPLE'S VOICES AND  GET A CHANCE TO MAKE THAT.

AND THE OTHER THINGS ARE  REALLY TO SORT OF THE SHIELD FOR THAT WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT  DOES NOT HAVE A POLITICAL SWING UP AND DOWN WHERE, YOU  KNOW, YOU HAVE PEOPLE APPOINTED, THEY SERVE TERMS,  THEY HAVE TO COME BE BIPARTISAN.

THERE ARE SEVEN COMMISSIONERS.

YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THAN FOUR  FROM ANY ONE POLITICAL PARTY AND THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SERVE  ACROSS TERMS OF GOVERNOR.

SO, GOVERNOR APPOINTS THEM,  CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE.

SORT OF LIKE, IF YOU THINK THE WAY THE JUDICIARY SYSTEM IS  SUPPOSED TO WORK, WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE QUALIFIED,  APPOINTED AND THEN WORK ON CREATING RULES AND REGULATIONS  BUT WITH A LOT OF PUBLIC INPUT.

YEAH.

Laura: ONE OF THE ISSUES I  HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT IS STREAM ACCESS AND IF I HAVE  THIS RIGHT, IN 2018 THERE WAS A NEW RULE THAT ALLOWED PEOPLE  WHO OWN LAND NEXT TO A STREAM OR A RIVER TO PETITION THE  GAME COMMISSION TO CLOSE ACCESS.

AM I EXPLAINING THIS RIGHT OR WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THIS  RULE?

Vesbach: YOU HAVE IT RIGHT.

EVEN STEPPING BACK FROM THAT RULE A BIT, WE HAD A LAWSUIT  AT UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO THAT WROTE AN OPINION SAID,  TWO AGENCIES ARE INTERPRETING STREAM ACCESS DIFFERENTLY IN  THE STATE.

THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IS  GIVING GUIDANCE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FLOAT NEW MEXICO'S  RIVERS, SAYING NOT ONLY CAN YOU TOUCH THE BOTTOM OF THE  STREAM WHEN YOU'RE FLOATING, IF YOU HIT AN OBSTACLE, A TREE  OR SOMETHING, YOU HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO GO AROUND THAT AND  PORTAGE AROUND IT, BECAUSE OUR WATER IS PUBLICLY OWNED AND  YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO FLOAT IT.

IF YOU TOUCH THE BOTTOM IN THE INCIDENCE OF THAT, THAT IS  OKAY, BUT THE GAME DEPARTMENT, WHICH I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR  OVERSEEING THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, THEY JUST TOLD PEOPLE  YOU CAN'T.

YOU CAN'T TOUCH THE BOTTOM AND  THEY DID A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUIDANCE.

THE LAWSUIT AT THE TIME THOUGHT THE ENVIRONMENT  DEPARTMENT WAS RIGHT.

LUCKY VARELA, REPRESENTATIVE WHO  GREW UP IN PECOS, HE ASKED FOR AN OPINION FROM THE ATTORNEY  GENERAL AND SAID, WHO IS RIGHT HERE?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL  AGAIN KIND OF SIDED WITH THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IDEA  BUT THE ADMINISTRATION AT THE TIME DID NOT PASS THE RULE  THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BACK IN THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION,  LIKE YOU SAID, PASSED A RULE THAT LAND OWNERS COULD  PETITION TO CLOSE OFF SECTIONS OF THE STREAM.

WHEN I CAME ON THAT RULE WAS STILL IN PLACE AND WE HAD  SEVERAL PETITIONS COME IN AND WE ENDED UP DENYING THOSE  PETITIONS.

WE DIDN'T THINK THAT IT WAS RIGHT TO CLOSE  THOSE STREAMS BASED ON THE FACTS OF THE CASE AND THE  SUPREME COURT HAS TAKEN IT UP.

THEY ARE THE RIGHT ENTITY TO  DETERMINE CONSTITUTIONALLY, IS THERE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL ALONG  OUR PUBLIC STREAMS OR NOT?

SO, THEY WILL TAKE UP THAT  POSITION NOW, BUT THE LANDOWNERS WHO HAD PETITIONED  FOR THOSE OBVIOUSLY HAD STRONG OPINIONS BUT THERE IS A LOT OF  PUBLIC INPUT AS WELL ON IT.

Laura: LIKE I MENTIONED,  GOVERNOR MICHELLE GRISHAM REMOVED YOU FROM THE GAME  COMMISSION.

WHAT WERE YOU TOLD AND WHY  WERE YOU REMOVED FROM THE COMMISSION?

Vesbach: I WASN'T GIVEN A REASON.

I HAD A YEAR LEFT IN THE MY TERM AND I GOT A SHORT LETTER  THAT SAID -- THE GOVERNOR SAID, I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO  REMOVE YOU, AND, THEREFORE, I AM REMOVING YOU.

MY TAKE IS THAT IT WAS BECAUSE ONE OF THE LANDOWNERS, IN  PARTICULAR, WHO HAD PETITIONED WHO HAD REALLY STARTED THIS  DRIVE TO PETITION TO CLOSE OFF STREAMS WAS A LARGE POLITICAL  DONOR.

WHEN I GOT ON THE COMMISSION, I WAS THERE TO  SERVE THE PUBLIC NOT TO SERVE ANYBODY'S POLITICAL INTEREST.

AND I WAS NOT WILLING TO KIND OF GO ALONG WITH WHAT A  CERTAIN LANDOWNER WOULD WANT AND I WOULD SAY THAT THERE IS  HERITAGE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE WE HAVE PUBLIC LANDS AND  PUBLIC WATERS AND OUR WILDLIFE, LIKE WE TALKED  ABOUT, IS PUBLICLY OWNED AND THERE IS A PUSH TO PRIVATIZE,  TO MAKE THAT ACCESS -- NOT SHUT IT DOWN BUT MAKE IT SO  THAT THE WEALTHIEST, MOST PRIVILEGED GET THAT ACCESS AND  THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOESN'T.

THAT GOES TO SOME OF OUR HUNTING RULES AS WELL.

I REALLY BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO PRESERVE THAT EQUAL ACCESS  AND FOR THE PUBLIC THIS INCREDIBLE HERITAGE WE HAVE,  SO, WHEN I WENT INTO THE COMMISSION I THOUGHT I AM NOT  GOING TO CHANGE MY VALUES FOR THAT AND I DO THINK THAT WAS  THE REASON I WAS REMOVED.

Laura: GETTING READY TO  TALK TO YOU, I LOOKED UP ON THE GAME COMMISSION'S WEBSITE  AND THERE IS ONLY FOUR COMMISSIONERS CURRENTLY  LISTED.

Vesbach:   THAT IS A BARE QUORUM.

SO, IF ONE PERSON DIDN'T SHOW UP THEY COULDN'T HOLD A  MEETING NOW AND OUR HUNTING RULES AND REGULATIONS ARE ON A  FOUR-YEAR CYCLE.

THEY HAVE TO BE SET SO THE  GOVERNOR IS GOING TO HAVE TO APPOINT NEW COMMISSIONERS SOON  BECAUSE WE WON'T HAVE HUNTING SEASONS.

WE WON'T BE ABLE TO GO FORWARD WITHOUT THE COMMISSION THERE  TO SET RULES.

Laura: EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE  NOT ON THE COMMISSION ANYMORE, I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN ACTIVE ON  THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME AND PAYING ATTENTION TO THE  COMMISSION FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT THAT  COMMISSION CAN BE?

Vesbach: WELL, LIKE I SAID,  101 YEARS OLD AND YOU LOOK BACK TO THE HISTORY AND THERE  WAS TWO CALLS WHEN THE COMMISSION WAS CREATED.

ONE,  GET THE GAME DEPARTMENT OUT OF POLITICS.

AND I THINK THAT STILL STANDS TRUE TODAY.

WE HAVE TO RESTORE THAT POLITICAL SHIELD.

COMMISSIONERS WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED WITHOUT  CAUSE.

THAT WAS NEVER THE INTENT, BUT  THERE WAS A COURT DISCUSSION IN THE RICHARDSON  ADMINISTRATION ABOUT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT KIND OF  COMMISSION, JUDICIAL STANDARD COMMISSION, AND RICHARDSON  REMOVED JUST EVERYONE.

THERE WAS A LAWSUIT AND THE  COURT RULED THAT IF THERE IS NOT A VERY SPECIFIC PROCESS  SPELLED OUT TO REMOVE A COMMISSIONER FOR CAUSE, THEN  THEY SERVE AT WILL.

SO, I WOULD SAY THAT WOULD BE  SIMILAR TO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD JUSTICES WHO COULD JUST BE  PULLED BACK OFF THE COURT IF THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T LIKE A  DECISION THEY MADE, YOU KNOW.

SO IT IS NO LONGER SERVING  THAT POLITICAL SHIELD AND I THINK UPDATING THAT LAW IS  SUPER IMPORTANT, KIND OF RESTORING THE ORIGIN INTENT  BUT WITH NEW IDEAS AND NEW SCIENCE, YOU KNOW, LIKE I  SAID, WE STILL CALL IT THE GAME COMMISSION WHEN IN  REALITY IT IS A WILDLIFE COMMISSION NOW.

SO WE NEED TO UPDATE THAT AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF THAT I  THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS TO PROTECT ALL THE WILDLIFE OF  NEW MEXICO AND THERE WAS A COURT DECISION IN THE 50'S  THAT SAID THE JUSTICE -- READING SUPREME COURT  DECISIONS ISN'T USUALLY SUPER EXCITING AND FUN, BUT THIS ONE  IS A LITTLE HILARIOUS.

THE JUSTICE WHO WROTE THE  STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION SAID THAT WE CAN'T LET THE  COMMISSION PROTECT ANY WILDLIFE SPECIES, MY GOD, THEY  COULD PROTECT JACK RABBITS AND JACKRABBITS ARE A GAME  SPECIES.

NOW WE HAVE AN ENDANGERED  SPECIES OF JACK RABBITS THE WHITE-SIDED JACK RABBIT, THAT  THE COMMISSION IS DOING A LOT TO TRY TO PROTECT.

SO, RESTORING THAT ORIGINAL INTENT, WE HAVE JUST A  PATCHWORK OF PROTECTION, SOME REPTILES ARE PROTECTED, SOME  KINDS OF BIRDS, BUT WE HAVE SPECIES THAT ARE IN NEED THAT  ARE DECLINING THAT THE COMMISSION CANNOT NECESSARILY  PROTECT.

SO, I THINK, THE LEGISLATURE,  I WOULD SAY, NEEDS TO TAKE ACTION ON TWO THINGS, JUST  KIND OF RESTORE THE ORIGINAL INTENT WITH NEW KNOWLEDGE AND  THAT IS THE COMMISSIONERS CAN'T BE REMOVED WITHOUT CAUSE  BECAUSE WE DO NEED THAT POLITICAL SHIELD AND THEN FOR  WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT SO SCIENCE GUIDES IT, BUT WE HAVE A LOT  OF PUBLIC INPUT AND THEN THE OTHER PART IS, KIND OF  MODERNIZING THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT GAME SPECIES.

IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT IS ALL THE WILDLIFE THAT THE GAME  COMMISSION OR WILDLIFE COMMISSION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR  OVERSEEING.

Laura:   THANK YOU JEREMY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING  ME.

Vesbach: THANKS, IT WENT BY  QUICK.

Gene: WE ASKED THE  GOVERNOR'S OFFICE FOR A COMMENT ABOUT VESBACH'S  REMOVAL FROM THE COMMISSION.

PRESS SECRETARY MEYERS SACKETT  SAID THERE WAS A DISAGREEMENT OF MISSION, END QUOTE,  UNRELATED TO STREAM ACCESS.

SHE SAID THE GOVERNOR RESPECTS  AND APPRECIATES VESBACH'S DEDICATED YEARS OF SERVICE AND  ADVOCACY AND SAID THERE ARE PLANS TO FILL THE VACANCIES  BEFORE THE NEXT GAME COMMISSION MEETING.

WE CALLED THE DEPARTMENT TO FIND OUT WHEN THAT MEETING  WILL BE HELD.

IT WILL BE SOME TIME IN  FEBRUARY BUT RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO DATE.