[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC STING] - We're now joined by Robert Torricelli, former United States senator in the great state of New Jersey.

Bob, good to see you.

- Nice to see you, Steve.

- You are still engaged, involved, and care deeply about representative democracy.

Our series, "Democracy at a Crossroads," the graphic will come up.

You were advocating together with the former governor, Christine Todd Whitman, a third party.

Seriously?

Could it work, A, (Robert laughs) and B, why is it so necessary?

- Well, having given my entire life to the Democratic Party, it is a little bit of a man bites dog story.

You know, Steve, I think a lot about my 20 years in the Congress and the years before that in the White House and what I saw and what I learned and the current state of affairs, and it's led me to a few strongly held beliefs.

One, that despite the rancor in American politics, the debate is awfully stale.

There are ideas expressed, but very few new ideas, very few new points of opinion and no new interests.

It's the same interests with the same arguments back and forth.

And one way that you deal with that is, it may be a third party, if not a third party, fusion voting.

And that- - What does that mean?

- Well, there are times, believe it or not, against all evidence, that the Republicans can have the best candidate.

It can happen.

And I would like to be able to vote for that person without voting for a Republican.

As there are people who would vote for a good Democratic candidate without necessarily voting for the party.

The best example of this in our lifetime, of course, is John Lindsay, where you had both parties in New York City stale, New York City was in crisis, most New Yorkers were not going to vote for a Republican for mayor.

(indistinct) - Which Lindsay was, but he was also, wasn't he a part of the Liberal Party?

- He's the Liberal Party.

So New York is a good guide on this, and it's one of the reasons why I think New York politics has been more vibrant, sometimes it's more ideological and easier for new forces to break in.

Now, it's worked both ways.

John Lindsay became mayor of New York because the Democratic Party got stale, really should've lost the election.

But as I say, people weren't gonna vote for a Republican.

The opposite happened when Buckley became a US senator for New York on the conservative line.

The party was changing, the Reagan revolution was starting- So a lot of Republicans did not wanna vote for the Rockefeller Republican Party in New York.

They were conservative, this was part of the new Reagan revolution, and they voted for Buckley.

All I'm suggesting in this is that mixing this up more, getting more points of view involved, I think's healthy for everybody.

- But Bob, you understand politics better than virtually anyone I know.

To what degree would the Democratic and Republican Party, and those who are in elective positions from those two parties, be in favor of that?

How would that even happen?

- Well, it kind of depends where you are in the party.

For example, where I now live, in Hunterdon County, my Bergen roots now behind me, in the big race last year between Tom Kean and Malinowski, you simply couldn't get enough independents in Hunterdon County to vote for Malinowski.

They would not pull a Democratic left.

So I think a lot of liberal Democrats argued at the time, and were right, had they had the chance to vote for Malinowski on a liberal line or a different line, independent line, he would've won.

It would've mixed it up more.

So I think you will get elements of each party that will do this.

You certainly will with Republicans 'cause there are many Republicans who are more for conservative doctrine than they are for the Republican Party as an institution.

Many more.

So I- - For Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

- And now you've got that.

You've got many principled Republicans who simply will not vote for Donald Trump but would like to vote on a conservative line.

I don't, in a democracy, I think, by and large, options help in getting more people and more points of view.

- Bob, I've heard Governor Whitman say this, and then I think you're in the same place on this... First of all, is there a name of the party?

- Well, the people are different parties.

I mean, they're already is a Workers Party in New Jersey, a Peoples' Workers Party.

There's been an Independent Party some have formed.

I'm not part of that.

I am and will always be a Democrat.

But I think you would see, if this were to open up, that you could run on multiple lines, you undoubtedly would say the Workers Party and you'd see a liberal and a conservative party.

- But if an independent, if a third party candidate ran for president and people who are ideologically where you are on most issues were then to realize that that third party candidate, if that third party candidate was more ideologically aligned with you and some other folks who believe some of the things you do, those votes would, say they came from the Democrat, Joe Biden, and Donald Trump, if he's the Republican nominee, were elected.

- Ah, but if you have fusion voting.

- Go ahead.

- I can vote for the Liberal Party in New Jersey, which can be committed to the same electors or the same candidate as the Democratic Party.

The best example of this would be, in the Republican Party if somebody wants to vote Republican but doesn't wanna vote for Donald Trump, they could vote for someone else who is claiming both lines.

It's the John Lindsay case all over again.

I can vote for a liberal, I don't have to vote for a Republican, but I want John Lindsay.

- Do you see this happening, Bob, before the next presidential election?

- No, but I think we do get there.

Which kind of leads me to, I said there were two things I've been thinking about- - Go ahead.

- One is related, but different.

You should do this 'cause you were in public office too.

A lot of people sit back and think about- - But Bob, one term in the legislature doesn't even count, but go ahead.

(both laughing) - So a lot of people sit back and think about all the good things they did in government, okay?

I spend more time thinking about the mistakes I made.

What were my bad votes?

And I've noticed something about every bad vote I cast.

Contrary to public belief, it's where there was consensus, not opposition.

People think the principal problem in American politics today is that no one can get along, there's no bipartisanship.

Well, that is a problem.

Make no mistake about it, it's a problem.

But so is stampeding, where both parties align.

Think about, in our lifetime, the worst policies of the United States government.

Vietnam, initially bipartisan.

Far and away, the second Gulf War was a bipartisan disaster.

The PATRIOT Act.

And I could go through six or seven of these that I was a part of.

I'd give my eye teeth to get those votes back.

But at the time, it was everybody.

And when I talk about a fusion voting and getting two other parties, you know, you could be a Democrat but you would know you had another line to run on if you went against the leadership on one of these votes.

- Bob Torricelli, giving us an awful lot to think about, and staying engaged and involved, making a difference.

Former senator, United States Senator Bob Torricelli.

Bob, thank you so much for joining us.

(Robert speaks indistinctly) We'll make sure we continue the conversation.

All the best.

I'm Steve Adubato, that is Bob Torricelli.

We'll see you next time.

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