>> ON THE TOPIC OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WE TURN TO THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER CRISIS.

A THIRD GENERATION MEXICAN AMERICAN AND FORMER BORDER PATROL AGENT, AN UNLIKELY PAIRING DRIVEN BY HIS THIRST TO UNDERSTAND BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE.

HIS NEW BOOK DISPATCHES FROM THE BORDER, CHRONICLES THE BRUTALITY ALONG THE LANDSCAPE HE LOVES.

HE SHARED THE STORIES OF THE PEOPLE THAT HE MET ALONG THE WAY.

>> YOU DIDN'T BECOME A BORDER PATROL AGENT TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

YOU HAD AN INTERNATIONAL POLICY DEGREE.

YOU SAY YOU WANTED TO SEE HOW THE WORLD WORKS.

YOU WANTED TO SEE WHERE THIS POLICY ACTUALLY -- THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> THERE WAS A LOT NAIVETE BEHIND THE DECISION.

I IMAGINED I COULD JOIN THE BORDER PATROL AND DO THIS WORK FOR A FEW YEARS AND THEN SORT OF LEAVE WITH ALL THESE ANSWERS TO THIS BIG, COMPLEX PROBLEM BECAUSE I HAD SEEN IT FROM A PERSPECTIVE THAT PROBABLY NOT A LOT OF POLICY MAKERS HAVE SEEN IT FROM.

OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE -- I THINK I ALSO MASSIVELY UNDERESTIMATED THE POWER OF THE INSTITUTION TO SORT OF BEND PEOPLE'S PURPOSES TOWARDS ITS WILL.

GOING THROUGH THE BORDER PATROL ACADEMY, IT'S MUCH LIKE ANY MILITARY OR LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING.

IT'S DESIGNED TO REBUILD YOU IN THE IMAGE OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENT.

>> ONE THING YOU MENTIONED IS LIVING NEAR THE BORDER MEANS BECOMING CONDITIONED TO A DEGREE OF MILITARIZATION AND SURVEILLANCE THAT WOULD CAUSE GREAT ALARM IN ANY OTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> YOU CAN'T DRIVE LONGER THAN 30 TO 40 MINUTES IN ANY DIRECTION ALONG THE BORDER WITHOUT GOING THROUGH A BORDER PATROL CHECK POINT AND BEING STOPPED IN YOUR CAR.

YOU KNOW, RACIAL PROFILING IS SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE TAUGHT NOT TO DO AT THE ACADEMY FROM -- BY THE BOOKS STANDPOINT.

IT'S REALLY ENGAGED IN PEOPLE.

I THINK THE BORDER PATROL TRAINING DOES VERY LITTLE TO ACTUALLY PREVENT IT HAPPENING IN ACTION AT THE MOMENT.

IT'S A VERY MILITARIZED SPACE.

I THIS THAT THAT MILITARIZATION, IT'S ALSO FENCING, THE NEWEST THING WHICH IS THE CLOSEST BORDER TOWN WHERE I LIVE IS SENSE THE MIDTERM ELECTION THERE HAS BEEN COILS OF WIRE, RAZOR WIRE, THAT YOU WOULD SEE AROUND A PRISON.

WHEN YOU GET OUT OF YOUR CAR TO GO WALK ACROSS THE BORTDDER, YO FEEL THAT YOU ARE IN A DANGEROUS PLACE.

THE BORDER IS ACTUALLY NOT ANY MORE DANGEROUS THAN AMERICA'S LARGE CITIES.

HE W EL PASO IS ONE OF AMERICA'S SAFEST CITIES.

>> WHAT WERE YOUR NOTIONS OF WHAT'S GOOD, WHAT'S BAD?

WERE THOSE CHALLENGED?

DID THAT CHANGE?

DID YOU START TO ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT WAS UNACCEPTABLE?

>> YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT GET LOST OUT IN THE DESERT AND THEY GET LEFT BEHIND BY THEIR GROUPS.

THEN THEY TRY TO WALK OUT TO A ROAD OR TO A VILLAGE TO GET PICKED UP.

JUST TAKE US HOME.

WE'RE LOST.

WE HAVE BEEN OUT HERE WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER FOR DAYS.

I ENCOUNTERED A HUSBAND AND WIFE IN THAT SITUATION.

I SHOWED UP AS THE JUNIOR AGENT ASSIGNED TO SHUTTLE PEOPLE BACK AND FORTH FROM THE STATION.

AS I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I COULD SPEAK SPANISH, I WAS HE SAID, MY WIFE, SHE SPEAKS FLUENT ENGLISH.

SHE GREW UP IN IOWA.

THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I WAS HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IN ENGLISH WITH THIS WOMAN.

SHE SAID, YEAH, WAS A KINDERGARTEN TEACHER.

I WENT HOME BECAUSE A FAMILY MEMBER DIED.

SHE WAS PREGNANT.

SHE SAID THAT SHE WAS CROSSING THE BORDER BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO HAVE HER CHILD HERE BECAUSE SHE WANTED HER CHILD TO GROW UP LIKE SHE HAD GROWN UP IN THE UNITED STATES WITH ACCESS TO ALL THE FREEDOMS AND PRIVILEGES THAT SHE HAD.

I MADE A REALLY BIG EFFORT TO REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.

I ASKED THEM THEIR NAMES.

I INTRODUCED MYSELF.

BECAUSE THERE WAS A FEELING THAT YOU HAD AN EXCHANGE THAT WAS OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL EXCHANGE YOU MIGHT HAVE THIS THOSE ROLLS OF ENFORCER.

>> YOU HAD TO TAKE THEM -- >> OF COURSE.

HER HUSBAND ASKED ME IF I COULD DO THEM A FAVOR AND BRING THEM DOWN TO THE BORDER AND LET THEM GO WITHOUT PUTTING THEM THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM AND BRINGING THEM BACK TO THE STATION AS A BROTHER.

AS A SPANISH SPEAKING PERSON WHO KNOWS OUR CULTURE AND FROM THE SAME BACKGROUND.

OF COURSE, I SAID, NO, I CAN'T DO THAT.

I HAVE TO TAKE YOU IN.

I REMEMBER JUST A FEW HOURS AFTER THAT ENCOUNTER, AFTER DROPPING THEM OFF, SITTING IN MY CAR AND TRYING TO REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.

I HAD ALREADY FORGOTTEN IT, IN THAT SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.

FORGETTING SOMEONE'S NAME IS THE FIRST ACT IN DEHUMANIZING THEM.

I THINK ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIA COVERAGE AROUND IMMIGRATION, IMMIGRANTS ARE ALWAYS REPRESENTED AS THE INDISTINGUISHABLE MASS OF PEOPLE.

THAT'S THREATENING THE NATION OR THAT'S SURGING AND OVERFLOWING AT OUR BORDERS.

>> YOU POINT OUT THAT IN YOUR VIEW, THE DESERT HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED AGAINST MIGRANTS.

YOU ARE SAYING THE NUMBER OF DEATHS, IT'S ALMOST BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED THAT WAY.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> YEAH.

THERE'S A POLICY THAT WAS IMPLEMENTED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION CALLED PREVENTION THROUGH DETERRENTS.

SO IN THE SORT OF LAID TE '80s, THEY HAD THIS TECHNIQUE WHERE AT THAT TIME YOU HAD A LOT OF -- MOST MIGRANT TRAFFIC WAS CROSSING THROUGH CITIES AND TOWNS ALONG THE BORDER.

SO THE BORDER PATROL RESPONSE WAS TO THROW A LOT OF MANPOWER RIGHT ALONG THE BORDER, STATIONING AN AGENT EVERY HALF A MILE FROM ONE ANOTHER.

IT COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN TRAFFIC AND PUSHED IT TO THE OUTSKIRTS OF TOWN, OUTSIDE OF THE PUBLIC EYE AWAY FROM CAMERAS, AWAY FROM CONCERNED VOTERS.

THE THINKING WAS AS THAT POLICY WAS ADAPTED INTO A NATIONAL POLICY, THAT THE DESERTS ARE SO REMOTE AND SO HOSTILE, THERE'S NO WATER, RUGGED MOUNTAINS, PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO RISK THEIR LIVES.

>> A NATURAL DISINCENTIVE.

>> AND A DETERRENT.

WHAT WE SAW AS SOON AS A FEW YEARS AFTER THIS POLICY WAS IMPLEMENTED, WAS A HUGE UPTICK IN THE NUMBER OF DEATHS THAT WERE OCCURRING IN THE DESERT IN PLACES LIKE WHERE I LIVE NOW.

I THINK IF THAT WAS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE AT THE TIME, IT HAS NOW BEEN CONTINUED BY DESIGN.

THERE HAS BEEN A COMPLETE FAILURE OF POLITICAL WILL TO DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THAT SITUATION.

WE HAVE KNOWN THAT PEOPLE ARE DIEING IN THE DESERT NOW FOR DECADES.

>> WOULD A WALL WORK TO FIX THAT?

GUESS WHAT, IF WE CAN SLOW THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE, THEN WE WILL SLOW THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE DIEING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT.

>> I THINK ACTUALLY, A WALL HAS -- WALLS ALONG THESE BORDER TOWNS HAVE ACTUALLY EXACERBATED THERE PROBLEM.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT HAS CAUSED PEOPLE TO CROSS THROUGH MORE AND MORE DISTANT, REMOTE, OBSCURE AREAS.

SO YOU KNOW, IF YOU DID BUILD A WALL FROM SEA TO SHINING SEA, I THINK YOU WOULD ONLY SEE A CONTINUATION OF THIS.

YOU WOULD SEE PEOPLE CROSSING ON SHIPS AND BOATS.

LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING INNED MEDITERRANEAN.

M THAT MENTALITY CONTINUES.

IT HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR DECADES AND CENTURIES IF YOU LOOK AT WESTWARD EXPANSION AND MILITA MILITARIZATION.

>> YOU SPEND SEVERAL DOZEN PAGES CHRONICLING DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND HOW THEY EXPLOIT PEOPLE.

AREN'T THOSE PEOPLE THAT WE SHOULD BE FIGURING OUT A WAY TO KEEP OUT?

>> SURE.

BUT I THINK THAT OUR POLICIES HAVE REALLY EMBOLDENED A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE.

AS IT BECAME MORE DIFFICULT TO CROSS THE BORDER, IT BECAME MORE PR PROFITABLE TO TRAFFIC PEOPLE.

THESE DRUG CARTELS THAT HAD THE STRATEGIES FOR SMUGGLING DRUGS ACROSS THE BORDER UNSEEN REALIZE THAT THERE WAS NOW A LOT OF MONEY TO BE MADE IN DOING THE SAME THING WITH PEOPLE.

EVEN WITH CHILD SEPARATION, WHICH IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A DETERRENT-BASED POLICY, WE WILL MAKE IT HELL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO CROSS THROUGH THE BORDER, WE WILL SEPARATE THEM FROM THEIR CHILDREN, THAT'S GOING TO SEND A MESSAGE OF DETERRENCE.

IN A LOT OF WAYS, THAT EXACERBATED THIS PROBLEM.

AFTER THAT WAS MET WITH OUTRAGE AND THEN SORT OF CALLED OFF BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A LOT OF THESE SMUGGLING GROUPS IN MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA, THEY WERE LIKE, DID YOU SEE WHAT JUST HAPPENED?

THEY'RE GOING TO SEPARATE YOU FROM YOUR CHILDREN.

WE BETTER GO NOW.

WHO KNOWS WHAT THIS GUY IS GOING TO DO NEXT.

THEY USED THAT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING PEOPLE ACROSS, TO MAKE THEM PAY MORE MONEY.

I THINK IT BEGS THE QUESTION, WHAT IS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE?

WHEN IS IT A CONSEQUENCE THAT WE'RE OKAY WITH?

>> THE BOOK TAKES A TURN WHEN YOU TELL US A STORY OF SOMEONE THAT YOU WERE WORKING NEXT TO FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, YOU FIND OUT HE IS UNDOCUMENTED.

HE TAKES A TRIP HOME AND HE IS STUCK.

YOU SAID THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES YOU REALIZED WHAT HAPPENS TO A PERSON AFTER YOU ARREST THEM.

THAT WASN'T REALLY A PART OF YOUR TRAINING OR PART OF WHAT YOU PREPARED FOR AS BORDER PATROL AGENTS.

>> THIS PERSON JOSE, WHO IS SOMEBODY I MET SEVERAL YEARS AFTER LEAVING THE BORDER PATROL AND SOMEBODY THAT I WORKED WITH AND BECAME FRIENDS WITH OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL YEARS, ALL OF A SUDDEN IN SEEING WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AFTER -- HE LEFT THE COUNTRY TO GO, AGAIN, BE WITH A DIEING PARENT.

HE WAS SOMEBODY WHO LIVED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR 30 YEARS, HAD THREE U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN.

WHEN HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO COME BACK INTO THE COUNTRY, HE WAS APPREHENDED AND PUT THROUGH DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS.

SUDDENLY, I WAS -- AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR WITH THE SYSTEM, I WAS ATTEMPTING TO SORT OF MAKE SENSE OF IT FOR HIS FAMILY AND SAY, HE IS GOING TO BE HERE AT THIS COURTHOUSE.

HE IS BEING DETAINED HERE.

I WAS SORT OF TAKING HIS KIDS AND HIS WIFE TO SEE HIM IN THESE DIFFERENT CONTEXTS THESE DIFFERENT PLACES.

FOR ME, THAT WAS REALLY THE FIRST TIME I WAS LOOKING BEHIND THE CURTAIN AT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO EVERYBODY AFTER THEY ARE ENCOUNTERED IN THE DESERT AND SENT TO COURT OR TO THESE PRIVATELY RUN DETENTION CENTERS.

>> THIS IS JOSE SPEAKING OR YOUR WRITING THROUGH HIS VOICE.

I WOULD RATHER BE IN PRISON IN THE U.S. AND SEE MY BOYS ONE A WEEK THAN BE SEPARATED FROM MY FAMILY.

THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN KEEP ME FROM CROSSING.

MY BOYS ARE NOT DOGS TO BE ABANDONED IN THE STREET.

I WILL TALK THROUGH THE DESERT FOR FIVE DAYS, EIGHT, TEN DAYS, WHATEVER IT TAKES.

I WILL EAT GRASS, BUSH, DRINK CATTLE WATER, I WILL DRINK NOTHING AT ALL.

I WILL HIDE AND PAY THE MAFIA WHATEVER I HAVE TO.

THEY CAN TAKE MY MONEY.

THEY CAN ROB MY FAMILY.

THEY CAN LOCK ME AWAY.

I WILL KEEP COMING BACK.

I WILL KEEP CROSSING AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL I MAKE IT, UNTIL I AM TOGETHER WITH MY FAMILY.

SOME OF THE AUDIENCE WILL BE INSPIRED.

SOMEONE ELSE WI LL SAY, THIS IS THE EVIDENCE FOR WHY THE U.S.

NEEDS MORE BORDER SECURITY.

>> WHAT THE EVIDENCE SHOWS US WHAT HIS WORDS REVEAL IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT VERSION OF HELL WE IMPLEMENT THROUGH POLICY AT THE BORDER, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ENDURE IT TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE.

ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR WIVES, CHILDREN, FATHERS, MOTHERS ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

OR WHEN THERE'S THE SECURITY OF SAFETY FROM THE CERTAIN THREAT OF DEATH IN THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE FLEEING.

I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT HE ALSO SHOWS US THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE BEST FAMILY VALUES -- SOMETHING HE TOLD ME IS THAT I RESPECT THE LAW.

I RESPECT THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES.

THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE WHAT MAKES IT A SAFE ENVIRONMENT THAT I WANT TO LIVE IN, THAT I WANT TO RAISE MY FAMILY IN.

I HAVE THE UP TMOST RESPECT FOR THOSE LAWS.

BUT.

IF THOSE LAWS ARE KEEPING ME SEPARATE FROM MY CHILDREN, THEN, I HAVE TO BREAK THE LAW.

I HAVE TO.

>> THERE'S GOING TO BE PEOPLE WITH MORE HARD LINE POSITIONS ON IMMIGRATION THAT ARE GOING TO SAY, THIS DISILLUSIONMENT, HE IS THE OUTLIER.

IF IT WAS SO BAD, WHY AREN'T WE HEARING THIS FROM OTHER BORDER AGENTS?

WHY ISN'T THE SYSTEM REBELLING AGAINST ITSELF?

>> I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S THE WAY INSTITUTIONS WORK.

INSTITUTIONS RARELY CHANGE FROM WITHIN.

I THINK THAT EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE FROM THE MOMENT THAT YOU SIGN UP AT YOUR BORDER PATROL RECRUITMENT FACILITY AND YOU SHOW UP AT THE BORDER PATROL ACADEMY, EVERYTHING IS BEING DONE TO NORMALIZE THE ACTIVITIES YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN.

TO SORT OF DESENSITIZE YOU TO THE HARD REALITY THAT YOU ARE SEEING AND PARTICIPATING IN.

IT'S MANAGED TO BE CONTAINED AND IT'S MANAGED TO BE POLITICIZED.

WHAT AN AVERAGE BORDER PATROL AGENT THINKS IS NOT EVEN A SUBJECT OF DEBATE.

HOW MANY BORDER PATROL AGENTS ARE EVEN ALLOWED TO GIVE INTERVIEWS?

A LOT OF BORDER PATROL AGENTS PROBABLY LIVE IN FEAR OF SPEAKING OUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MORTGAGE, THEY HAVE FAMILIES.

THIS IS A GOOD JOB THAT OFFERS A LOT OF SECURITY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE COMING FROM THESE SMALL, RURAL BORDER TOWNS WHERE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF GREAT EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY.

>> YOU HAVE GOTTEN CRITICISM FROM PEOPLE WHO SAID, YOU ARE PROFITING AND EXPLOITING THE PAIN OF THESE PEOPLE.

YOU ARE PART OF A SYSTEM THAT BROUGHT THAT PAIN ON THEM.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IN A LOT OF WAYS THEY'RE MAKING A REALLY IMPORTANT ARGUMENT.

ANYBODY WHO IS IN JOURNALISM OR WHO IS WRITING NON-FICTION ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES NEEDS TO GRAPPLE WITH.

IF YOU ARE SHARING THE STORIES FROM A MARGINALIZED COMMUNITY, AND SORT OF MAKING A LIVING THAT WAY, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO GRAPPLE WITH WHO IS MAKING MONEY OFF OF WHOSE STORY.

WHO IS BEING RECOGNIZED AS THE AUTHOR OF A STORY IF YOU ARE SHARING OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFE EXPERIENCES?

SO I HAVE BEEN REALLY APPRECIATIVE OF THOSE CRITICISMS AND THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

I THINK THEY HAVE MADE ME BE A LOT MORE INTENTIONAL WITH WHAT I DO FROM -- WHAT I DO WITH THE MONEY THAT I EARN FROM THE ROYALTIES OF THIS BOOK.

A PERCENTAGE OF THE ROYALTIES GOES TO GROUPS THAT ARE WORKING TO END DEATH AND DISAPPEARANCE IN THE BORDER LANDS AND MASS INCARCERATION.

>> GIVEN YOUR FAMILY HISTORY, HOW COMPLICATED WAS BEING A BORDER PATROL AGENT?

HERE YOU ARE A FLUENT SPANISH SPEAKER.

YOU HAVE MEXICAN HERITAGE.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE BETRAYING ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND THEN HERE YOU ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND YOU ARE TASKED WITH UPHOLDING THE LAW OF THIS COUNTRY?

WHAT WAS THAT STRESS LIKE?

>> I THINK IT WAS REALLY HARD FOR MY MOTHER ESPECIALLY.

I THINK SHE SORT OF DID A LOT TO TRY TO CONVINCE ME THAT IT WASN'T THE RIGHT IDEA OR TO SORT OF CONVINCE ME THAT MY IDEAS, MY MOTIVATIONS WERE NAIVE.

I THINK IN RETROSPECT, THERE WAS A LOT THAT MY MOTHER HAD TO SAY -- >> MOMS ARE USUALLY RIGHT.

>> THEY ARE USUALLY RIGHT.

I STEPPED INTO THE BORDER PATROL KNOWING THAT IT WAS -- KNOWING IT WAS PART OF A LOT OF UGLINESS.

KNOWING I -- I HAD THE IDEA THAT I COULD WITNESS THAT WITHOUT PARTICIPATING IN IT.

RIGHT?

THAT I COULD SORT OF SEE IT AND LEARN FROM IT BUT NOT BE IM IMPLICATED IN IT.

I THINK THAT'S A PROFOUNDLY NAIVE IDEA TO THINK THAT YOU CAN STEP INTO AN INSTITUTION AND SORT OF SEE THINGS FROM WITHIN WITHOUT PARTICIPATING IN THEM.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.