(whimsical music) - [Narrator] This is a production of WEDU PBS, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Sarasota.

- Next on WEDU, after the momentous Supreme Court decision on abortion, government mask and vaccine mandates, limits on what can be taught about race and gender in Florida schools, corporations being sanctioned by government and the debate over guns and public safety, which major political party does better defending personal freedom?

We'll have a conversation about it next on "Florida This Week."

(dramatic orchestral music) Welcome back.

On Monday, we'll celebrate the 4th of July, the day that the Second Continental Congress passed the Declaration of Independence, a document which declared that the original 13 colonies were separating from the oppressive rule of the king of England.

The Declaration contains the memorable line, "All men are created equal, "that they are endowed by their creator "with certain unalienable rights, "that among these are life, liberty "and the pursuit of happiness."

Those rights are at the center of the idea of the United States of America.

Last week, a majority of the US Supreme Court, all appointed by Republican presidents voted to take away the national right to abortion that was established in 1973.

The decision was chaired by those who champion the rights of the unborn, but it also puts the government in control of women's pregnancies.

At the same time, we are experiencing an epidemic of a new and sometimes deadly disease.

Many people want the freedom to deal with COVID-19 without interference from government required masks or mandatory vaccines or closing of businesses and schools.

We're gonna have a discussion right now about freedom and which political party is doing best to defend our freedoms with four guests.

Joining us now, Christian Ziegler is a Sarasota County Commissioner in District Two, and the vice chair of the Republican Party of Florida.

Mike Deeson is a former reporter, author and an independent journalist.

Debora Tamargo the immediate past president of the Florida Federation of Republican Women.

And Tara Newsom is an attorney and a political science professor at St. Petersburg College.

And it's great to see all of you.

We're gonna start with an opening 90 second statement from both sides, and let's start with Christian Ziegler.

Christian, which party best defends freedom?

- Well, I think it's very easy to answer, Rob.

And I appreciate you having us on.

This gonna be a good discussion.

But when you look at the Republican Party, we believe in the individual.

Democrat Party believes in big government.

We believe in the individual and, specifically, we believe that every American, no matter how they start, has the opportunity to achieve the American Dream through setting goals and through hard work.

And that's what our party believes.

Now, when you look at the state, what has happened in the state with Governor DeSantis, who's really the lead Republican here in Florida, is during COVID, we kept businesses open, we got people back to work, we got kids in the classroom as quick as we could, we got the masks off our children, we got CRT out of the classrooms recently.

And then he's also protected women against this war on women that's going on in our schools, specifically in terms of girls' sports and also boys using girls' bathrooms.

So what we're doing is the Republican Party believes in that individual and protecting them.

And I'll tell you, it's working.

If you look here in Florida, I think we're the number one state when it comes to domestic migration.

States like California are losing people for the first time in their history.

And I know they had a U-Haul shortage in California.

And then when you look at voter registration when Governor DeSantis took over, there were 260,000 more Democrats than Republicans.

Last year, we surpassed Democrats for the first time in our state's history, and now we have 140,000 more Republicans than Democrats.

So there's been a 400,000 registration flip from in terms of Democrats going to Republicans.

And that shows we're fighting for freedom and it's working.

And frankly, you're seeing it with the numbers.

- Christian, thanks a lot.

And those are a lot of topics.

You've mentioned a lot of topics that we want to get to.

Tara, for 90 seconds, give us your view on which party best defends freedom.

- You know, freedom's not even defined in our US Constitution, nor are political parties even mentioned.

Yet, the divisiveness of the parties prompted our framers to remind us to honor and pursue national unity and put away party over country.

And in the arc of our country's history, both political parties of advanced freedom.

But today, if you look through the lens of the Constitution, it's difficult to afford the Republicans any grace.

Their strategies have undercut America's trust in government, and most importantly, our trust in each other.

And what's most troubling is how that has affected the Supreme Court of the United States, a very Republican and politicized institution now.

And it's been burned by national distrust and its reputation is now one of the most politicized courts in history.

And we've had a twisted understanding of liberty through the hands of the Republican Party.

This is especially true as we witness the gutting of our right to privacy and the dismantling of the Constitutional barriers between church and state.

So the reality is that those national initiatives coupled with the Republican controlled Florida Legislature and their attacks on public education, voting rights, intellectual freedom, LGBTQ rights, it paints a dire picture.

It's not a celebrated litany of freedom fighters.

Though Republican loyalists are no longer showing fidelity to the concept of liberty and the blessings of liberty are promised in the Constitution and they cannot be constrained by a party affiliation.

And the advancement of freedom, the advancement of Liberty, are best seen through the Democratic Party.

- Tara, thanks a lot.

So Debora, let's go to you.

Do you think that the Republican Party is at odds with the concept of freedom?

- No, we are not.

And we put our trust in the Constitution.

The framers of the Constitution put their trust in the people.

So let's look at the people's choice.

1 million people within the United States have changed their party affiliation this year from Democrat to Republican.

So I think they're voting with their voter registration for that freedom.

Let's look at WalletHub.

They recently published an article.

They gauge freedom and independence in various states and the strength.

Again, they go to households and jobs and numbers and feelings, and Florida is number six in terms of independence.

So let's look at science, let's look at people, let's put our trust in the people and they are voting for freedom.

Why have they nicknamed Florida, "The Free State?"

Because we embody those values and benefits that are unique to America.

- Mike, do you think that the fact that so many people are moving here indicates that Florida, for instance, under Governor DeSantis is a beacon of freedom?

And I wonder about what Christian said, too, in which he said that there is a war on women from the Democratic side.

What would you say?

- They're moving here because we don't have a state income tax.

And I would say that both Christian and Debora are wrong in the fact that one of the basic concepts that people in this country believe in is majority rule.

That doesn't happen anymore.

It doesn't happen in the Florida legislature, it doesn't happen in the US Congress, and it doesn't happen with the Supreme Court at all.

The Republican Party, the Supreme Court is out of step of the will of the American people in every one of the issues that we will be talking about, from abortion to gun control to CRT to "Don't Say Gay," the Republican party has co-opted this country with a minority view that is out of step with America.

And I'm not saying this as someone who is a Democrat, I have voted for Republicans in the past.

I voted for Democrats in the past.

I voted for independents.

But these days, with the Electoral College and gerrymandering, they're able to get laws passed that are out of sync with America.

- So Mike, let's go back to you for this one.

And I want everybody to talk about abortion.

The Supreme Court decision on abortion leaves it now up to the states.

There's no longer the federal right to abortion.

And I wonder, what does that say about freedom?

How does the Supreme Court's decision, how do you view it in terms of freedom?

- Me?

Well, it's simple.

63% of Americans favor Roe v. Wade.

Even John Roberts, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was not ready to go as far as the radical Conservatives on the Supreme Court to abolish Roe v. Wade, He went for the 15 week Mississippi rule.

But they are out of step and they are trying to put a spin on this, that they are doing the will of the people, they are doing what the Constitution requires them to do.

That is just not true.

And they're limiting people's ability to have freedom, to have a choice.

How can the Republican Party say it's in favor of freedom and gives more freedom to people and protects women when women have lost their right for a choice when it comes to reproductive issues?

- Debora, do you think that the pregnancies, do you agree that pregnancies are now under the control of the government by the Supreme Court decision?

- Absolutely not.

And even Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that the Supreme Court decision was flawed, okay?

It did not belong in the Supreme Court.

It belonged in the states, with the people.

We lost nothing in terms of rights with this decision, all it did was turn it back to the state.

Actually, Roe was originally a first trimester decision.

It became all the way through pregnancy and even after birth in some states.

It's been returned to the people.

That's the freedom.

It changed absolutely nothing in this state or any other state, except to return it to the people.

- All right.

So, Tara, do you think that the decision actually changed nothing?

And do you think that women now are second class citizens?

- I think that this is a craziness.

When all six of the US Supreme Court justices were asked at their confirmation hearings, if there was an applied right to privacy, they all agreed there was.

And now that they have a political and ideological majority, they decided that 50 years of case precedent isn't the reality.

I would invite everyone who's watching to read the ninth amendment of the US Constitution that says the enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights does not deny or disparage the rights held to the people.

So forgive me for saying that it's returned to the states.

It's actually returned to the people, and that is something that we need to keep in mind.

And if they really wanted to embrace original jurisdiction and original intent, then I welcome them to look at the ninth amendment.

And I welcome all of you to do the same.

- All right, Christian, what do you think about the Supreme Court decision on abortion via as it relates to women and people's freedom?

- Well, the ninth amendment was just cited about getting the power back to the people.

And there's no greater way than pushing any decision or any, you know, when it comes to our government, down to the states, and that's exactly what this did.

Every individual state can make their own decisions.

You know, I didn't see the uproar from the left when the Obamacare decision came out and there were, you know, somehow they weren't liberal activists then, but now we're attacking Conservatives when they make a decision on this.

And all this does is send it back to the states.

Now, the people, literally the people, that's about as close as you can get without going county by county, the people can make the decision on how they want to handle abortion in their states.

And I think that's about as free as you get, because when the founders set up our country, they wanted everything to go back to the states or as much to go back to the states as they possibly could.

And that's what we're seeing now.

- Debora- - Christian, may I ask you and Debora each a question?

Though you talk about giving it back to the people, that same court the week before said in the New York concealed weapons case, that it could not go back to the states, that it had to be a uniform law.

The height of hypocrisy from the Court on the New York state gun control issue, the Roe v. Wade is so outstanding and overwhelming it makes your head spin.

How does that give it back to the people, Christian?

- Christian, why don't you take that one?

- So very clearly, if you look at the US Constitution, there actually is a right in there for the second amendment and to be able to possess guns.

- [Debora] Right.

- You do not find the same exact right, as explicit as, I mean, the second amendment couldn't be more clear.

You do not see that for abortion.

And previously you said, "Hey, majority rules."

Well, guess what?

We have more Republicans than Democrats in the state of Florida, so the decisions that Florida makes, hopefully you'll agree with as we discuss these other issues as we go forward.

- But, Christian, that second amendment also says "well-regulated militia."

And the- - The other piece, Rob, is that if we don't believe in implied rights of the Constitution, then judicial review, which is the implied right of the Supreme Court to review the other branches of government wouldn't hold up.

So the very power that the Supreme Court has to decide Roe v. Wade and Dobbs and New York is all based on an implied power.

So this is an elusory conversation.

- Okay, let's move on to another topic.

I wanna talk about what's being taught in schools and start with Debora on this one.

We have the Parental Rights Bill, which is also known as the Don't Say Gay Bill.

It restricts what teachers can and can't say about gender in the classrooms.

We also have a ban on teaching critical race theory in classrooms.

Talk about that in terms of freedom.

Does this help the move towards freedom?

- Absolutely.

I think you remove the freedom of parents to parent their children when you put the teachers in charge of teaching sex education in elementary school.

That is a parental right.

I don't want a teacher teaching heterosexual or any other sex to a child in those very fragile years.

And whether it's CRT and teaching them to be ashamed that they are White or ashamed that they are Black or better because they are one color or another, those are not the basis of education.

The basis of education is to teach our children curriculum that will help them in their future lives and leave the parenting to parents.

- Mike, the ban on critical race theory and also the limits on what could be said about gender.

How do you view it?

- Well, first of all, critical race theory that was put in under DeSantis was a problem that didn't exist looking for a solution that is a political advantage for DeSantis.

It wasn't being taught in the schools in Florida.

In some colleges, perhaps, but not in the schools.

And taking this one step further, in Texas, they have introduced a bill that will now say that slavery is involuntary relocation.

That's what they want taught in Texas.

That is so preposterous, it's unbelievable.

And with the Don't Say Gay Bill, it's supposed to be just for younger kids, but school boards throughout the state of Florida are warning their teachers to take down rainbow signs, whether they're teaching in the elementary school or secondary education.

(phone ringing) It's just a craziness that is extending throughout the school systems that is not happening.

They're told to take down the pictures if they have a spouse of the similar sex; that they can't put it on their desk anymore.

It is just, how you guys can say that the Republican Party expands freedom when it's choking off freedom at every chance it can get, and there's not even the problem in some of the laws that have been passed by the ultra conservative Florida Legislature.

And it doesn't go to the will of the people, Christian.

Even though there may be more registered Republicans now than Democrats in the state, there's also 28% that are independents in the state.

And that doesn't go to the will of the people.

- Christian, let me get you in on this.

Is the Republican Party choking off freedom when it comes to classrooms?

- No.

So first of all, what Mike is saying, he's very uninformed, specifically when it comes to critical race theory in classrooms, I'd encourage him to go watch a BrainPOP video about George Floyd that was available to third graders.

And during that video, which was actually a cartoon, it goes through and talks about defunding the police.

It talks about praising George Floyd, turning kids into political activists.

And then it also highlights systematic racism and dives into that, which are the key components of critical race theory.

And so he's wrong there.

But number two, as to your question about freedom, look, I have a eight year old, a six year old and a three year old.

I want to be able to have those hard discussions with my children, whether it comes about sex or comes about racism.

I don't need an adult having those conversations and specifically with the Parental Bill of Rights or the Parental Rights in Education Bill, which somehow even this, I guess, you know, Rob, even you fell for the tagline, it's not the Don't Say Gay Bill.

It's actually the Parental Rights in Education Bill.

And all that did was say that a grown adult cannot talk to my K through third grader, which all three of my kids are right around that age, they can't talk to them about sex without me knowing.

I mean, that is so insane that Democrats have embraced that.

And if you look at polling, actually, Democrat voters, overwhelmingly, independents and Republicans overwhelmingly oppose allowing kids K through three to hear about sex from adults without their parents knowing.

So that's what Mike is advocating for.

Let's just be very clear here.

That's what he's advocating for.

We oppose it.

- That is not true!

- Yeah, that is not true.

That is not true.

Let me just say this.

- Okay, let's go to Tara.

- If the Republican Party is so interested in parental rights, then why did they deny parents, I'm a mother of four, the opportunity to have vaccines for children under five?

It's inconsistent.

And quite frankly, I think in our school systems, we don't have educators advocating in ways that you're talking about.

They're sharing their lives.

They're connecting with their students in ways that are outside of what you're describing.

And sharing someone's life, their pictures of their spouse or their children, or discussing their families is, quite frankly, uplifting to other students that might have the same families at home.

So I think it's a mischaracterization of what happens in education.

And as an educator, CRT is an illusion.

I teach at a college level.

We talk about structural opportunities for success through the Constitution, but we don't bastardize it.

- Why are you so upset that it's getting removed then?

You should not be upset, number one.

- I actually think this is, I think it's an illusion.

You're creating a way to beat over academicians heads about something that's not true.

We teach students about the Constitution, which I would welcome to teach the Republican Party.

- And Christian, I just gotta clarify, is that BrainPOP video, is that part of the Florida curriculum or is that just available on the internet?

- No, no, that's part of the curriculum.

BrainPOP is used here in Sarasota County.

It was used until my wife got notified by a parent.

We threw that video up online.

People went crazy in the public.

I can't believe this is inside the schools.

And guess what?

They removed it and now you have to have parental permission to watch that.

So BrainPOP, go watch the George Floyd video.

It is a cartoon about systematic racism and defunding the police and praises Minneapolis defunding the police.

That's going on for third graders.

- [Rob] Okay.

- In Florida.

- All right, all right.

It's part of the curriculum, you say.

Okay, let me ask about mask and vaccine mandates.

The Governor and the Legislature passed a law that private employers are prohibited from having vaccine mandates, that government entities may not require COVID-19 vaccinations for anyone, including employees, that educational institutions may not require students to be COVID-19 vaccinated and that school districts may not have school face masks policies.

And Tara, let's start with you on this one.

The Governor's approach to mandates when it comes to COVID-19.

- You know, the central issue in any public health debate is always the conflict between public health goals and individual rights; right to privacy, security of person, personal autonomy.

All of that is at risk.

What's difficult to understand in Florida and with our Governor the mixed message of wanting to honor these rights as it relates to masks and vaccines, but not to honor those rights when it comes to the sovereignty of a woman's body, privacy rights of loving the same sex.

I think it's very difficult and sends mixed messages about what freedom is and whether you can really embrace in the Republican Party in the state of Florida, and really honor these mask and vaccine directives as something coming from a place of really looking at liberty or if it's really just political.

- And Christian, the Governor successfully passed this law against mandates.

What do you think?

- I think it's good.

When we're looking at here, I mean, the mandates, these were being forced on individuals.

All we're saying is that individuals should be able to make their own decision.

I'll tell you, the Governor, it's interesting when you talk about COVID vaccines, is when the vaccine came out, the Governor was out there, working hard to make sure people had access to the vaccine if they decided to take it.

He had so many stops that Democrats and Liberals in the media were attacking him, saying he was using vaccine for political purposes.

That's how much he was promoting it.

But all he was doing was giving people, giving citizens, the access to it, and then allowing them to make the decision.

But once people started getting fired for it, I mean, I have a family member that was a police officer.

Here, she got married and she was about to, she's actively trying to have a baby.

And she got laid off as a law enforcement officer in another state because of the vaccine.

And all the Governor's doing is saying, "That's wrong."

People should not be punished for the decisions that they make as an individual.

And he's just blocking that.

But as for people, if they decide to get the vaccine, that's on you; you can get the vaccine if you want.

- All right, Mike, what do you think about the Governor and the state Legislature moving towards banning mask mandates and vaccine mandates?

And we only have 40 seconds.

- Okay, it's crazy.

I'm old enough, 'cause I'm older than most, that in the fifties I had the polio vaccine in school.

I don't even know if my parents signed a parental permission slip.

We had a health crisis.

I had friends who died of COVID, some of whom were anti-vaxers and said, "Ah, I don't need this."

And now we have the Governor not allowing the vaccine to come in for kids under four.

I've got a four year old grandson, under five, rather.

It is absolutely crazy.

We have a health crisis in this country.

We have to look for the common good and protect our country rather than the individual rights that sometimes do have to be inhibited.

- All right, well, I have four more topics and we're out of time.

And I hope you come back and maybe we'll do this again.

Before we go, what other news stories should we be paying attention to?

And Christian, let's start with you.

The other big story of the week.

- I think when you, just today, the Emerson College released a poll and Trump is up over Biden by 5%.

I don't know if Trump's ever been up over anyone by 5% in a reported poll.

That's huge.

Obviously, Biden is failing.

We're looking at record inflation, record gas prices, and we're starting to see his scores come out.

Not doing so well lately.

- All right.

Tara, your other big story?

- I think we need to be watching the Florida Civics Literacy Exam.

It's an exam that became required of all high school and college graduates in the state of Florida.

That looks like the Republicans are using the whole strategy of using exams to push right-leaning ideas through an exam, a graduation exam.

And I think that the grassroots movement is gonna be pushing up against it.

- Debora, your other big story?

- Well, it was a birthday week for our phenomenal First Lady, Casey DeSantis.

It was a birthday week a week ago for our amazing Lieutenant Governor, Jeanette Nunez.

On her birthday, she formed Mamas for DeSantis.

So for all you ladies out there that use these amazing, they are strong, they are brilliant, they are involved.

They're moms and yet they're still gracious and they still behave and act like ladies.

And they are the personification of American women.

Join Mamas for DeSantis.

- All right, well, Mike, your other big story?

- Is that the Republican Party is running on fear of no longer being a majority party.

53% of Floridians are White.

In 2040, it will drop where White people will be in the minority.

It seems like it's far away.

In 18 years, the White people in Florida and the White males of the Florida Legislature are scared to death of that and they're doing everything they can to hold on to that majority and make the laws so they will be in control long past when they are a majority.

And once again, majority will not rule.

- Hey, thank you all for a civil discussion.

And this is one of those shows where I wish that we could go on for another two hours because there's so much that we left unsaid, but thank you for participating.

I really appreciate it.

- Thank you for having us, Rob.

- Thanks, Rob.

- Thanks for joining us.

You can view this and past shows online at wedu.org on the PBS app.

And "Florida This Week" is now available as a podcast.

From all of us here at WEDU, have a great weekend and have a happy 4th of July.

(dramatic orchestral music) - [Narrator] "Florida This Week" is a production of WEDU, who is solely responsible for its content.

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